May 23, 2025 • 31 mins
Crystal Fox shares her heartbreaking journey as the mother of a son with schizophrenia and co-founder of Arizona Mad Moms, an organization supporting families of loved ones with degenerative brain illnesses causing psychosis. Through her dual perspective as both a parent and a psychiatric nurse with 30 years of experience, Crystal illuminates the critical gaps in our mental healthcare system.
• Anosognosia is a symptom of serious mental illness where individuals cannot recognize they are ill, truly believing their hallucinations and delusions are real
• Despite clear signs of severe psychosis, Crystal's son Joshua was repeatedly denied proper psychiatric treatment because he wasn't actively suicidal
• Current mental healthcare prioritizes treating suicidal ideation while allowing untreated psychosis, despite psychosis leading to higher rates of suicide and homicide
• America has regressed in mental healthcare, removing people from hospitals and placing them in jails or communities without adequate support
• Arizona Mad Moms successfully advocated for legislation requiring screening centers to document family information and created training programs on anosognosia
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to why Not Me ?
The World Podcast, hosted byTony Mantor, broadcasting from
Music City, usa, nashville,tennessee.
Join us as our guests tell ustheir stories.
Some will make you laugh, somewill make you cry.
Their stories Some will makeyou laugh, some will make you
(00:30):
cry.
Real life people who willinspire and show that you are
not alone in this world.
Hopefully, you gain moreawareness, acceptance and a
better understanding for autismaround the world.
Hi, I'm Tony Mantour.
(00:52):
Welcome to why Not Me?
The World Humanity OverHandcuffs the Silent Crisis
special event.
Joining us today is Crystal Fox.
She's the co-founder of ArizonaMad Moms, which is a place for
mothers, caregivers and familymembers of loved ones with
degenerative brain illnessescausing psychosis.
(01:13):
Join us as we explore herjourneys, their advocacy and the
unbreakable bonds that drivethis community forward.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Thanks, for coming on .
Yeah, thank you for asking.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Oh, it's my pleasure.
Now I understand that you'reone of the co-founders of the
Arizona Mad Moms.
Is that correct?
That is correct.
Can you expand on when youfirst started your organization?
Speaker 2 (01:34):
It was a slow start, a slow progress.
We had gotten together.
My son was diagnosed withschizophrenia while he was in
jail and there was a group of usthat were following his
trajectory through the criminaljustice system.
He had trouble with maintaininghis sanity and he had to go
(01:56):
back for Rule 11.
And through that process therewas a group of us that followed
him.
Shortly after he was sentencedhe went to prison and within 30
hours committed suicide.
So after that I was asked tospeak at a hospital committee
(02:16):
meeting for the Senate and Ispoke at the and actually the
House as well I think it hadboth sides on it.
And after that meeting we werejust flooded with people who
were dealing with the sameissues and that's what created
the Arizona Mad Moms.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
So probably around January of this last year, Was
that the House and Senate ofArizona or the House and Senate
of the US?
Speaker 2 (02:44):
House and Senate of Arizona, or the House and Senate
of the US House and Senate ofArizona.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Okay, All right.
So I think for everyone tounderstand, there's a difference
between psychosis and then youhave.
I believe it's calledanosognosia.
Is that correct?
Speaker 2 (02:58):
Anosognosia.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Yeah, okay.
Can you tell the differencebetween the two so everyone can
get a better understanding ofwhat we're talking about?
Speaker 2 (03:08):
I can.
So I'm also a psychiatric nurse.
I've been a psychiatric nursefor 30 years.
I worked at the Arizona StateHospital and retired from the
Arizona State Hospital.
Anesthosia is a symptom ofpsychosis disorder and really
mania.
So anytime you have bipolar,with psychosis and severe mania,
(03:32):
that's the high end wherepeople just ramble and they
think that they have specialpowers, stuff like that.
They truly believe that.
So anosognosia affects thosepeople, including those with
schizophrenia, and anosognosiais a symptom of the disease.
What Arizona Mad Moms and manyof us who have experience
(03:57):
working with psychosis webelieve if you have that symptom
of anosognosia which manypeople call lack of insight.
So when I used to document as anurse, I would write whether
people had no insight into theirillness, that they thought that
their hallucinations and theirdelusions were real and you
(04:17):
could not convince themotherwise.
Some people had partial insightor a little, some anosognosia
where you might be able to.
They see that they needmedicine, they might be sick,
but they still believe theirhallucinations and their
psychosis and their mania.
So you can have varying levelsof anosognosia.
(04:40):
But those that have severeanosognosia where they don't
understand that they're sick.
But those that have severeanosognosia where they don't
understand that they're sick,that they think that their
psychosis and their mania isreal.
They are the ones that ArizonaMad Moms most supports.
They're the individuals thatare severely mentally ill.
We're also the individuals thatoften need treatment against
(05:05):
their will or involuntarytreatment because they don't
understand that they're sick.
My son was one of thoseindividuals.
He truly believed his delusionand his hallucinations were real
and he could actually see them.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
So when he saw them, was he around other people like
yourself, or was he all alone byhimself?
If he was around you, how didyou handle it, so that way it
would not get out of control?
Speaker 2 (05:33):
It was tricky.
And my son Joshua.
He had some psychotic breakswhen he was younger.
He had his first psychoticbreak when he was 18.
He believed that people werechasing him and after him.
He believed that he needed agun in order to protect himself.
He believed that I owed him themoney from things that happened
(05:57):
to him in his childhood, whichI didn't know at that time what
he thought those were.
I later found out that hethought that his dad had raped
him, had his friends come overand rape him and then put it on
the internet and made money.
This could not have been true,because his dad did not work the
internet.
I've asked my other kids and wehave no recollection of John
(06:19):
doing any such things.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
So, in other words, this was something that he just
believed, but it actually reallywasn't true.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Yeah, his dad did not have any access to the internet
.
He did not really know how towork the internet.
He also I've talked with all myother kids and none of us have
any thoughts that John wouldhave done such a thing.
We believe that's what's calleda delusion and it's a fixed
delusion, and so that's where hethought we owed him money.
(06:50):
So at that time I did inArizona we have petitions and so
I petitioned him forinvoluntary treatment and they
let him out within a day andsaid that it was because he was
on drugs.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
Now it's my understanding and you can
correct me if I'm wrong, becauseI'm just learning on this.
With schizophrenia, part of howthey diagnose it is to
differentiate between theirdelusions and if they are on
drugs or any other kind ofmedications.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
That is true, that is true a kind of medications.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
That is true.
That is true.
Do they do blood samples toeliminate the possibility?
Speaker 2 (07:30):
of being on drugs.
He was on drugs, which againcomplicates things for a lot of
people who have schizophrenia,because when their symptoms get
really bad they tend to go todrugs in order to mask those
symptoms, in order to helpthemselves, trying to fade out
what comes first.
The psychosis or the drug useoften comes with years of having
(07:55):
to fade that out.
Even myself up until when Joshwas 17, so up until just a year
before that believed that Josh'sissues were related to
substance abuse and notschizophrenia.
So at 17, I was around himenough that I saw the mental
illness coming first, but I didnot know it was schizophrenia.
(08:17):
I thought maybe it was like abipolar disorder where they have
highs and lows, or I thoughtmaybe he had so much anxiety it
was making him paranoid.
So even me, with my experience,had a hard time sorting this
out at first.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Okay, so you're experienced in this.
Because you're a nurse, youunderstand these situations.
How do people that don't knowanything about this, like me,
learn and understand about this?
It's my understanding that thisis a slow, gradual process that
takes time, and while it'shappening you don't see it until
(08:54):
, boom, it happens and you'reconfronted with the situation.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
Yes, and that's true for everybody.
It takes up to three to fiveyears to get a clear diagnosis
of schizophrenia.
They rule out everything elsefirst, and that's something that
Arizona Mad Moms and severalother psychosis organizations
really want to see changed.
(09:19):
I don't know if you remember soI know this group that listens
is well aware of autism, and Ihave two children with autism,
and I believe that autism, whenmy daughter and son had it was
diagnosed, my daughter wasdiagnosed at two and my son was
diagnosed at eight.
(09:40):
Back in the day, individualsdid not get diagnosed with
autism, often until they were inschool school because
pediatricians didn't know how toidentify it.
That's where we're at withschizophrenia.
The high schools, the parents,society doesn't know how to
identify those early signs ofschizophrenia, and so one of the
(10:02):
things we'd like to seeimproved upon, because I believe
if we can diagnose autism atone and a half years old, we can
start diagnosing schizophreniaa lot earlier and get treatment
to these young kids, youngadults, a lot earlier.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
Ironically, I think the first known diagnosis of
autism was around 1910.
Back then they had no knowledgeon it, didn't understand it,
and they looked at it as apsychotic event and they fixed
it by using electrotherapy.
Yep, so it is really prettyamazing that we've learned and
(10:38):
changed.
Unfortunately, it's taken us solong to do this.
If it took that long for autismfrom the 1910 to the 50s, 60s
and here we are 2025.
How do we get a better path forschizophrenia so that we can
expedite the help they need?
Speaker 2 (10:57):
It's going to take focus.
Society, the United States, hasgone backward.
If you think about Dorothy Dixback in the day, she went into
jails and found people that wereseriously mentally ill and said
, no, they need a place to go.
That would be a hospital thatwould be able to treat people
(11:18):
rather than incarcerate them.
So we pulled everybody out ofthe jails and we placed them in
hospitals.
Then, around the 1940s and 50s,there was a change and I
believe that change happenedbecause they thought it was the
best thing.
But it has not been the bestthing.
So that change was is that wetook people out of hospitals and
(11:42):
they were supposed to getcommunity care in society.
That did not happen and theseindividuals, instead of getting
care in the community, wereincarcerated.
There's never been a focus onpsychosis or schizophrenia,
because we've just incarceratedpeople with this illness and
(12:02):
we've closed all the hospitalbeds.
This is a big word, butpersonally I believe it's like
state-sanctioned torture, reallyfor individuals with
schizophrenia.
Imagine our individuals withautism, which there has been,
some that end up incarcerated.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Yeah, I was talking with a judge and about 50 years
ago he was in his teens.
He went into this institution.
They were dealing with thisyoung kid that they'd gone
through all these differentthings and thought that he was
ultimately schizophrenic.
As it turned out, they weretreating him for schizophrenia,
giving him all these kinds ofmedicines and ultimately he was
(12:41):
autistic.
That was over 50 years ago.
Here we are in 2025, and we'restill trying to figure things
out.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
Yes, and I will tell you again.
My youngest daughter isseverely autistic.
There is no question.
She's got the epilepsy.
She's cognitively impaired.
She actually had a brain tumor.
So she's got multipledisabilities.
She functions pretty much as athree or four-year-old.
There's no question that shehas autism and that she's
(13:11):
cognitively disabled, noquestion in society, no question
if you spend any time with her.
But my oldest son, austin, hadwhat they used to call in the
old days Asperger's syndrome.
We again same with him and hewas also twice exceptional.
So he was also gifted and hewas diagnosed with ADHD.
So trying to sort out whichissue he was having, we even
(13:36):
questioned whether he hadbipolar disorder as well.
There's a lot of interlap andwhat they're starting to find in
the genetics is genetically.
There's a lot of interlapbetween all these diagnoses.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
Yes, in the last year and a half I've spoken with
several people.
A lot of them are autistic,some are ADHD, some are bipolar,
some are autistic and bipolar.
It does seem to cross over andoverlap quite a bit.
That seems to be a very similarthing that happens around the
world.
The issue that I see and thisis just one of many is the
(14:15):
perception of it, not just theautism, but schizophrenia as
well.
They all seem to have thatstigma attached.
How do we change people'sperceptions?
How do we get them tounderstand?
These are not people out therejust trying to see how they can
be bad.
They don't have awell-thought-out plan on how to
be bad.
They just need help.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
That's the million-dollar question and
that's the question I ask a lotof people.
So when I worked at the ArizonaState Hospital for 30 years,
one of the units that I workedat and this is my favorite one
that I like to talk about was anopen unit.
It had open doors so ourpatients came and went as they
pleased.
They were getting ready fordischarge.
(14:57):
They were truly psychotic,schizophrenic or bipolar, but
they were stable on theirmedication but still receiving a
lot of supports.
They were getting ready to goout into the community.
So it was a slow transition.
Back in those days this is the1990s, when Closapine first came
out we went to the movietheaters, we went to what we
(15:18):
call Park and Swap, a swap meet.
We went on the bus, we went torestaurants, they had dances to
go to, they had all thesedifferent activities.
They had dances to go to, theyhad all these different
activities.
But we've removed all of thosesocial situations.
And so the thing withschizophrenia is just like the
thing with developmentaldisabilities.
(15:39):
They need support for anextended period of time with
staff and there shouldn't be anystigma around that.
The brain of somebody withschizophrenia that's been
suffering with psychosiscognitively is impaired.
They have to relearn stuff,just like a person with a stroke
has to relearn things.
The difference between autismand schizophrenia again is we
(16:01):
don't provide physical therapy,occupational therapy, speech
therapy.
Those things aren't provided,and so the re-entry back into
society is very difficult.
And this is the questions weneed to ask ourselves.
I talk with the police, and theydon't want to really deal with
mental illness.
(16:21):
You talk with the jails theydon't want to deal with mental
illness.
You talk with the store ownersthat are around the homeless
population they don't want todeal with mental illness.
You talk with the store ownersthat are around the homeless
population they don't want todeal with mental illness.
We took all these people out ofa safe place in asylums or
hospitals, had people like mewho care deeply 30 years.
(16:44):
I knew some of those patientslonger than I knew my children.
We took them out of thoseplaces for people who wanted to
work with them and we placedthem in a community that does
not want them.
So that is the question.
The stigma is a hard one for meto understand, because the
stigma mostly has to do witheverybody and it has to do with
(17:07):
systems and it has to do withgovernment.
They've created such adifficult pathway for parents
and such a difficult pathway forthese individuals to succeed.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
I was told that one in seven people around the world
either know someone or hassomeone that's autistic in their
family.
I've also been told that one ineight people around the world
have some sort of mentaldisorder, and that varies, but
they still need treatment.
So when you have one in sevenand you have one in eight around
(17:40):
the world, that's a big number.
That means they could bewalking down the street, come in
contact with someone andthere's a huge chance they're
either going to talk withsomeone that's autistic or
someone that has some mentalillness.
I would think that with thosekinds of numbers that's
happening all around the world,that people would have more
(18:01):
empathy for them and come out totry and help them, give them a
chance to have a normal life,which isn't happening yet.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
So there's a little confusion with those numbers.
When they talk about one infive, one in eight, they're
talking about all mentalillnesses.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
Okay, that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
So they're talking about somebody who goes to the
doctor and has anxiety ordepression or maybe some PTSD
from childhood trauma.
They're talking aboutindividuals who might have
postpartum psychosis.
They're talking about anybodywho has a mental health issue or
(18:42):
emergency.
They're not talking about thosewith schizophrenia and
psychosis disorders.
The numbers are somewherebetween 1 in 100 to 3 in 100
that have this level of seriousmental illness that has to do
with psychosis and schizophrenia.
(19:02):
Now, you are right, there are alot of people who know somebody
that has these disorders, maybean extended family and stuff
but it's not as much as youwould think.
A big part of the problem isthose that have those other
mental health conditions likeanxiety, depression, ptsd, these
kind of things can actuallyadvocate for themselves.
(19:24):
Most of the funding has gone tothem.
Most of the funding has gone tothem.
Most of the funding has gone tocaring for those with some sort
of mental health condition.
There's no money, or verylittle money, that's going to
this one to three percent of thepopulation, those with the most
seriously mentally ill, thosethat were taken care of at the
(19:47):
state hospital by people like me.
Those people are incarcerated.
Nobody sees them, nobody wantsto see them, and that's where
Arizona Mad Moms came in wasbecause, out of all the various
groups, even raising my kidswith autism and, trust me, we
were kicked out of some reallynice restaurants because of my
(20:07):
daughter we had.
We've done our share of whatyou would call discrimination,
but again, nothing compared towhat my son went through with
his schizophrenia.
Nothing compares to whathappened.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
I spoke with a mother .
She lived in a small town, hada young son and then all of a
sudden, overnight, he suddenlyhad some issues kind of like we
were talking about before.
Of course, the police didn'tbelieve her.
They just thought it was a kidbeing a kid.
Unfortunately, he did wind upin jail.
(20:42):
The very good part about thisis because she was living in a
small town.
The support she got from herfriends, family and just the
town was actually quite touching.
Can you relate to that?
When you were having issueswith your son, did you have
people around that weresupporting you, helping you?
(21:02):
Reaching out, as we've talkedabout, the stigma of psychosis
versus autism is a completelydifferent situation.
So how did they treat you?
Did you feel like you was acast out or did you feel like
the community was trying to helpand support you?
Speaker 2 (21:19):
Good question.
I didn't get any help orsupport.
I also don't think I reachedout and I should have Again,
again, having my background, Ithink I thought that doctors and
these hospitals that I triedtaking my son to and all these
places would see what I saw.
I didn't know that you had toliterally write down a whole
(21:40):
agenda.
I didn't know that you had tobe suicidal in order to get help
.
I didn't know that psychosiswasn't enough.
I didn't know that they wouldtransfer him enough.
I didn't know that they wouldtransfer him and not call me
when he got out.
I didn't understand how seriousHIPAA laws were against parents
and I did not experience thesupport and I think most of the
(22:01):
Arizona madmoms have never feltsupported.
So my son, during his psychoticbreak which lasted until his
death, murdered his father andagain the first time he
attempted to assault his dadagain.
If this was my daughter, tia,she would have gone to a
hospital or she would not havebeen removed.
(22:22):
But with Joshua, even thoughhis dad was going to file a
petition again to have himplaced inpatient, this time he
wasn't on drugs and even thelast time he was still psychotic
.
That's why I knew it wasn'tdrugs the first time he went to
the screening center.
This time, during that petitionprocess, my ex-husband called
(22:44):
the police to just take him tokeep him safe because he was
trying to kill himself andothers, and they took him to
jail instead, and that's whatstarted the whole incarceration
process that led to again, themurder and then the death and I
even took him being a nurse.
I knew what to say.
(23:05):
And then the death.
And I even took him being anurse.
I knew what to say.
I took him to seven differentscreening centers and seven
different hospitals to try toget him help.
He was turned away by everyone.
During that time I had let themknow that he had pulled a knife
, that he was delusional, thathe was threatening, that he
wasn't making sense.
Basically, I was afraid of himbecause he wasn't suicidal.
They didn't admit him.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
That's the reason they didn't help, because he
wasn't suicidal.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
That's right, you're allowed.
So for some reason, society hasdecided you're allowed to be
psychotic and it's okay to bepsychotic, but it's not okay to
be suicidal, and I would like tochange that, because it is not
okay to be psychotic.
More people commit suicide andhomicide during psychosis than
(23:54):
any other time.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
Is the law going to have to be changed so that the
parents or the family canintervene and get that help?
Is that what it's actuallygoing to take?
Speaker 2 (24:04):
It is Arizona.
One of the things that we diddo is we created it's not named
this anymore, but it was forJoshua's dad, john, and we
created a bill in Arizona thatrequires screening centers to
collateral information inwriting from the caretaker or
(24:24):
the parents and it's required togo into the medical chart.
So we are hoping that will helpto not just provide the intake
departments in these hospitalsand these centers more
collateral information to beable to admit, but also to
provide more safety to thefamily members, so what happened
to John doesn't happen toanybody else.
(24:45):
And we also created in Arizonawhen you mentioned Anna Signosia
, we also created a billtraining individuals on Anna
Signosia.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
Is that like a class people could take, and is it
online?
Speaker 2 (25:01):
It is.
It's a class for behavioralhealth, peer supports and staff
who work in the centers thatwork in our.
We have SMI clinics that workin our clinics to get that
training so that they understand.
A lot of people think thatanosognosia is just somebody
being a jerk or somebody notbeing defiant or somebody
(25:25):
choosing to choosing thisprocess, this thought process
disorder.
And it's not.
If I told Josh that he didn'thave syphilis or hepatitis which
I did do because he didn't haveit he showed me the spots on
his body that were not there andsaid that he knew that he had
(25:47):
that disease and he knew I wastrying to kill him because I
wasn't getting him help for thatdisease.
You couldn't tell him, evenwith a lab test, that he did not
have that disease.
That's not denial, that's amedical emergency.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
So is that something that you're trying to get
changed, where something likethat would be the criteria to
actually get him outside help?
Speaker 2 (26:11):
I would like to and many of us mad moms would like
to escalate psychosis to thelevel that we've escalated
suicide.
If somebody says they'resuicidal, they're straight into
a hospital, paid attention to.
It's important.
Even if they've said they'resuicidal 300 times and had been
admitted to a hospital 27 times,they're still admitted for
(26:33):
suicidal thoughts.
But if somebody comes in andsays that they're out of their
medicine, people are followingthem.
They think that the aliens havecome down and taken over their
body.
That's not a reason to admitsomebody.
That's not a reason to treatsomebody and we want to elevate
that to the same level ofemergency that suicide is.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
Yeah, that's a good point.
Now what would you like to tellthe listeners that you think is
very important, that they needto hear about what it is that
you're trying to do?
Speaker 2 (27:10):
neighbors, even if they're deranged and insane.
Are we going to care for thoseindividuals in society or should
we place them in asylums orinstitutions where people who
(27:33):
want to care for them are goingto care for them?
The idea of placing somebody inthe jail system for having
schizophrenia even when they dothese horrendous things which I
know, they're horrendous thingsand I understand that but not
treating them why they're injail and prison is torture.
(27:55):
My son believed that he wasbeing raped, that everybody was
against him.
He jumped off a balcony,breaking his back and both of
his heels because he thought hewas resurrecting a female from
hell.
He tried to kill himselfmultiple times.
He felt that the devil had comeinto his body.
(28:16):
He could tell because it waschanging the way he looked.
Leaving people in jail to belaughed at by guards and to be
treated like that is inhumane.
It's absolutely inhumane andwhether you're going to
incarcerate people, whetheryou're going to put them in a
hospital or whether we're goingto try to treat them in the
community, somehow, we have tohave love and humanity for these
(28:39):
individuals that, once they'retreated, would never do those
things that they did.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
Yeah, I think that's great.
There's definitely a lot oftragedy that happens because of
this and we definitely need toget a better handle on this so
that it can get under control or, at the very least, give people
an option to do the things thatthey need to do so they can
have a better life.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
Yep.
So yesterday, josh was soinflicted with his illness that
he did not know how to use thetelephone.
Between September 27th, wheresomebody taught him how to use
the phone, and yesterday, a yearago, yesterday, we talked every
single day for 30 to 40 minutes, depending on what the devil
(29:26):
would let him do, what hisvoices would let him do.
We talked about love andkindness, forgiveness.
We talked about hisschizophrenia.
I tried to give him hope.
We talked about his delusions.
That's how come I know so muchabout him.
So on December 19th, one yearago, he was transferred to
prison and 2020, they didn't docell checks, they didn't put him
(29:48):
in a suicide watch room and hecommitted suicide.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
Yeah, that's a very rough situation to deal with.
Well, this has been greatconversation, great information.
I really appreciate you takingthe time to tell us your story.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
I appreciate you.
I really do.
I appreciate what you're doing.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
Well, it's been my pleasure.
Thanks again.
Thanks for taking the time outof your busy schedule to listen
to our show today.
We hope that you enjoyed it asmuch as we enjoyed bringing it
to you.
If you know anyone that wouldlike to tell us their story,
(30:30):
send them to tonymantorcomcontact then they can give us
their information so one daythey may be a guest on our show.
One more thing we ask telleveryone, everyone everywhere,
about why Not Me, the World, theconversations we're having and
(30:50):
the inspiration our guests giveto everyone everywhere, that you
are not alone in this world.
Welcome to why Not Me ?
The World Podcast, hosted byTony Mantor, broadcasting from
Music City, usa, nashville,tennessee.
Join us as our guests tell ustheir stories.
Some will make you laugh, somewill make you cry.
Their stories Some will makeyou laugh, some will make you
(00:30):
cry.
Real life people who willinspire and show that you are
not alone in this world.
Hopefully, you gain moreawareness, acceptance and a
better understanding for autismaround the world.
Hi, I'm Tony Mantour.
(00:52):
Welcome to why Not Me?
The World Humanity OverHandcuffs the Silent Crisis
special event.
Joining us today is Crystal Fox.
She's the co-founder of ArizonaMad Moms, which is a place for
mothers, caregivers and familymembers of loved ones with
degenerative brain illnessescausing psychosis.
(01:13):
Join us as we explore herjourneys, their advocacy and the
unbreakable bonds that drivethis community forward.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Thanks, for coming on .
Yeah, thank you for asking.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Oh, it's my pleasure.
Now I understand that you'reone of the co-founders of the
Arizona Mad Moms.
Is that correct?
That is correct.
Can you expand on when youfirst started your organization?
Speaker 2 (01:34):
It was a slow start, a slow progress.
We had gotten together.
My son was diagnosed withschizophrenia while he was in
jail and there was a group of usthat were following his
trajectory through the criminaljustice system.
He had trouble with maintaininghis sanity and he had to go
(01:56):
back for Rule 11.
And through that process therewas a group of us that followed
him.
Shortly after he was sentencedhe went to prison and within 30
hours committed suicide.
So after that I was asked tospeak at a hospital committee
(02:16):
meeting for the Senate and Ispoke at the and actually the
House as well I think it hadboth sides on it.
And after that meeting we werejust flooded with people who
were dealing with the sameissues and that's what created
the Arizona Mad Moms.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
So probably around January of this last year, Was
that the House and Senate ofArizona or the House and Senate
of the US?
Speaker 2 (02:44):
House and Senate of Arizona, or the House and Senate
of the US House and Senate ofArizona.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Okay, All right.
So I think for everyone tounderstand, there's a difference
between psychosis and then youhave.
I believe it's calledanosognosia.
Is that correct?
Speaker 2 (02:58):
Anosognosia.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Yeah, okay.
Can you tell the differencebetween the two so everyone can
get a better understanding ofwhat we're talking about?
Speaker 2 (03:08):
I can.
So I'm also a psychiatric nurse.
I've been a psychiatric nursefor 30 years.
I worked at the Arizona StateHospital and retired from the
Arizona State Hospital.
Anesthosia is a symptom ofpsychosis disorder and really
mania.
So anytime you have bipolar,with psychosis and severe mania,
(03:32):
that's the high end wherepeople just ramble and they
think that they have specialpowers, stuff like that.
They truly believe that.
So anosognosia affects thosepeople, including those with
schizophrenia, and anosognosiais a symptom of the disease.
What Arizona Mad Moms and manyof us who have experience
(03:57):
working with psychosis webelieve if you have that symptom
of anosognosia which manypeople call lack of insight.
So when I used to document as anurse, I would write whether
people had no insight into theirillness, that they thought that
their hallucinations and theirdelusions were real and you
(04:17):
could not convince themotherwise.
Some people had partial insightor a little, some anosognosia
where you might be able to.
They see that they needmedicine, they might be sick,
but they still believe theirhallucinations and their
psychosis and their mania.
So you can have varying levelsof anosognosia.
(04:40):
But those that have severeanosognosia where they don't
understand that they're sick.
But those that have severeanosognosia where they don't
understand that they're sick,that they think that their
psychosis and their mania isreal.
They are the ones that ArizonaMad Moms most supports.
They're the individuals thatare severely mentally ill.
We're also the individuals thatoften need treatment against
(05:05):
their will or involuntarytreatment because they don't
understand that they're sick.
My son was one of thoseindividuals.
He truly believed his delusionand his hallucinations were real
and he could actually see them.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
So when he saw them, was he around other people like
yourself, or was he all alone byhimself?
If he was around you, how didyou handle it, so that way it
would not get out of control?
Speaker 2 (05:33):
It was tricky.
And my son Joshua.
He had some psychotic breakswhen he was younger.
He had his first psychoticbreak when he was 18.
He believed that people werechasing him and after him.
He believed that he needed agun in order to protect himself.
He believed that I owed him themoney from things that happened
(05:57):
to him in his childhood, whichI didn't know at that time what
he thought those were.
I later found out that hethought that his dad had raped
him, had his friends come overand rape him and then put it on
the internet and made money.
This could not have been true,because his dad did not work the
internet.
I've asked my other kids and wehave no recollection of John
(06:19):
doing any such things.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
So, in other words, this was something that he just
believed, but it actually reallywasn't true.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Yeah, his dad did not have any access to the internet
.
He did not really know how towork the internet.
He also I've talked with all myother kids and none of us have
any thoughts that John wouldhave done such a thing.
We believe that's what's calleda delusion and it's a fixed
delusion, and so that's where hethought we owed him money.
(06:50):
So at that time I did inArizona we have petitions and so
I petitioned him forinvoluntary treatment and they
let him out within a day andsaid that it was because he was
on drugs.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
Now it's my understanding and you can
correct me if I'm wrong, becauseI'm just learning on this.
With schizophrenia, part of howthey diagnose it is to
differentiate between theirdelusions and if they are on
drugs or any other kind ofmedications.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
That is true, that is true a kind of medications.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
That is true.
That is true.
Do they do blood samples toeliminate the possibility?
Speaker 2 (07:30):
of being on drugs.
He was on drugs, which againcomplicates things for a lot of
people who have schizophrenia,because when their symptoms get
really bad they tend to go todrugs in order to mask those
symptoms, in order to helpthemselves, trying to fade out
what comes first.
The psychosis or the drug useoften comes with years of having
(07:55):
to fade that out.
Even myself up until when Joshwas 17, so up until just a year
before that believed that Josh'sissues were related to
substance abuse and notschizophrenia.
So at 17, I was around himenough that I saw the mental
illness coming first, but I didnot know it was schizophrenia.
(08:17):
I thought maybe it was like abipolar disorder where they have
highs and lows, or I thoughtmaybe he had so much anxiety it
was making him paranoid.
So even me, with my experience,had a hard time sorting this
out at first.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Okay, so you're experienced in this.
Because you're a nurse, youunderstand these situations.
How do people that don't knowanything about this, like me,
learn and understand about this?
It's my understanding that thisis a slow, gradual process that
takes time, and while it'shappening you don't see it until
(08:54):
, boom, it happens and you'reconfronted with the situation.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
Yes, and that's true for everybody.
It takes up to three to fiveyears to get a clear diagnosis
of schizophrenia.
They rule out everything elsefirst, and that's something that
Arizona Mad Moms and severalother psychosis organizations
really want to see changed.
(09:19):
I don't know if you remember soI know this group that listens
is well aware of autism, and Ihave two children with autism,
and I believe that autism, whenmy daughter and son had it was
diagnosed, my daughter wasdiagnosed at two and my son was
diagnosed at eight.
(09:40):
Back in the day, individualsdid not get diagnosed with
autism, often until they were inschool school because
pediatricians didn't know how toidentify it.
That's where we're at withschizophrenia.
The high schools, the parents,society doesn't know how to
identify those early signs ofschizophrenia, and so one of the
(10:02):
things we'd like to seeimproved upon, because I believe
if we can diagnose autism atone and a half years old, we can
start diagnosing schizophreniaa lot earlier and get treatment
to these young kids, youngadults, a lot earlier.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
Ironically, I think the first known diagnosis of
autism was around 1910.
Back then they had no knowledgeon it, didn't understand it,
and they looked at it as apsychotic event and they fixed
it by using electrotherapy.
Yep, so it is really prettyamazing that we've learned and
(10:38):
changed.
Unfortunately, it's taken us solong to do this.
If it took that long for autismfrom the 1910 to the 50s, 60s
and here we are 2025.
How do we get a better path forschizophrenia so that we can
expedite the help they need?
Speaker 2 (10:57):
It's going to take focus.
Society, the United States, hasgone backward.
If you think about Dorothy Dixback in the day, she went into
jails and found people that wereseriously mentally ill and said
, no, they need a place to go.
That would be a hospital thatwould be able to treat people
(11:18):
rather than incarcerate them.
So we pulled everybody out ofthe jails and we placed them in
hospitals.
Then, around the 1940s and 50s,there was a change and I
believe that change happenedbecause they thought it was the
best thing.
But it has not been the bestthing.
So that change was is that wetook people out of hospitals and
(11:42):
they were supposed to getcommunity care in society.
That did not happen and theseindividuals, instead of getting
care in the community, wereincarcerated.
There's never been a focus onpsychosis or schizophrenia,
because we've just incarceratedpeople with this illness and
(12:02):
we've closed all the hospitalbeds.
This is a big word, butpersonally I believe it's like
state-sanctioned torture, reallyfor individuals with
schizophrenia.
Imagine our individuals withautism, which there has been,
some that end up incarcerated.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Yeah, I was talking with a judge and about 50 years
ago he was in his teens.
He went into this institution.
They were dealing with thisyoung kid that they'd gone
through all these differentthings and thought that he was
ultimately schizophrenic.
As it turned out, they weretreating him for schizophrenia,
giving him all these kinds ofmedicines and ultimately he was
(12:41):
autistic.
That was over 50 years ago.
Here we are in 2025, and we'restill trying to figure things
out.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
Yes, and I will tell you again.
My youngest daughter isseverely autistic.
There is no question.
She's got the epilepsy.
She's cognitively impaired.
She actually had a brain tumor.
So she's got multipledisabilities.
She functions pretty much as athree or four-year-old.
There's no question that shehas autism and that she's
(13:11):
cognitively disabled, noquestion in society, no question
if you spend any time with her.
But my oldest son, austin, hadwhat they used to call in the
old days Asperger's syndrome.
We again same with him and hewas also twice exceptional.
So he was also gifted and hewas diagnosed with ADHD.
So trying to sort out whichissue he was having, we even
(13:36):
questioned whether he hadbipolar disorder as well.
There's a lot of interlap andwhat they're starting to find in
the genetics is genetically.
There's a lot of interlapbetween all these diagnoses.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
Yes, in the last year and a half I've spoken with
several people.
A lot of them are autistic,some are ADHD, some are bipolar,
some are autistic and bipolar.
It does seem to cross over andoverlap quite a bit.
That seems to be a very similarthing that happens around the
world.
The issue that I see and thisis just one of many is the
(14:15):
perception of it, not just theautism, but schizophrenia as
well.
They all seem to have thatstigma attached.
How do we change people'sperceptions?
How do we get them tounderstand?
These are not people out therejust trying to see how they can
be bad.
They don't have awell-thought-out plan on how to
be bad.
They just need help.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
That's the million-dollar question and
that's the question I ask a lotof people.
So when I worked at the ArizonaState Hospital for 30 years,
one of the units that I workedat and this is my favorite one
that I like to talk about was anopen unit.
It had open doors so ourpatients came and went as they
pleased.
They were getting ready fordischarge.
(14:57):
They were truly psychotic,schizophrenic or bipolar, but
they were stable on theirmedication but still receiving a
lot of supports.
They were getting ready to goout into the community.
So it was a slow transition.
Back in those days this is the1990s, when Closapine first came
out we went to the movietheaters, we went to what we
(15:18):
call Park and Swap, a swap meet.
We went on the bus, we went torestaurants, they had dances to
go to, they had all thesedifferent activities.
They had dances to go to, theyhad all these different
activities.
But we've removed all of thosesocial situations.
And so the thing withschizophrenia is just like the
thing with developmentaldisabilities.
(15:39):
They need support for anextended period of time with
staff and there shouldn't be anystigma around that.
The brain of somebody withschizophrenia that's been
suffering with psychosiscognitively is impaired.
They have to relearn stuff,just like a person with a stroke
has to relearn things.
The difference between autismand schizophrenia again is we
(16:01):
don't provide physical therapy,occupational therapy, speech
therapy.
Those things aren't provided,and so the re-entry back into
society is very difficult.
And this is the questions weneed to ask ourselves.
I talk with the police, and theydon't want to really deal with
mental illness.
(16:21):
You talk with the jails theydon't want to deal with mental
illness.
You talk with the store ownersthat are around the homeless
population they don't want todeal with mental illness.
You talk with the store ownersthat are around the homeless
population they don't want todeal with mental illness.
We took all these people out ofa safe place in asylums or
hospitals, had people like mewho care deeply 30 years.
(16:44):
I knew some of those patientslonger than I knew my children.
We took them out of thoseplaces for people who wanted to
work with them and we placedthem in a community that does
not want them.
So that is the question.
The stigma is a hard one for meto understand, because the
stigma mostly has to do witheverybody and it has to do with
(17:07):
systems and it has to do withgovernment.
They've created such adifficult pathway for parents
and such a difficult pathway forthese individuals to succeed.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
I was told that one in seven people around the world
either know someone or hassomeone that's autistic in their
family.
I've also been told that one ineight people around the world
have some sort of mentaldisorder, and that varies, but
they still need treatment.
So when you have one in sevenand you have one in eight around
(17:40):
the world, that's a big number.
That means they could bewalking down the street, come in
contact with someone andthere's a huge chance they're
either going to talk withsomeone that's autistic or
someone that has some mentalillness.
I would think that with thosekinds of numbers that's
happening all around the world,that people would have more
(18:01):
empathy for them and come out totry and help them, give them a
chance to have a normal life,which isn't happening yet.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
So there's a little confusion with those numbers.
When they talk about one infive, one in eight, they're
talking about all mentalillnesses.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
Okay, that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
So they're talking about somebody who goes to the
doctor and has anxiety ordepression or maybe some PTSD
from childhood trauma.
They're talking aboutindividuals who might have
postpartum psychosis.
They're talking about anybodywho has a mental health issue or
(18:42):
emergency.
They're not talking about thosewith schizophrenia and
psychosis disorders.
The numbers are somewherebetween 1 in 100 to 3 in 100
that have this level of seriousmental illness that has to do
with psychosis and schizophrenia.
(19:02):
Now, you are right, there are alot of people who know somebody
that has these disorders, maybean extended family and stuff
but it's not as much as youwould think.
A big part of the problem isthose that have those other
mental health conditions likeanxiety, depression, ptsd, these
kind of things can actuallyadvocate for themselves.
(19:24):
Most of the funding has gone tothem.
Most of the funding has gone tothem.
Most of the funding has gone tocaring for those with some sort
of mental health condition.
There's no money, or verylittle money, that's going to
this one to three percent of thepopulation, those with the most
seriously mentally ill, thosethat were taken care of at the
(19:47):
state hospital by people like me.
Those people are incarcerated.
Nobody sees them, nobody wantsto see them, and that's where
Arizona Mad Moms came in wasbecause, out of all the various
groups, even raising my kidswith autism and, trust me, we
were kicked out of some reallynice restaurants because of my
(20:07):
daughter we had.
We've done our share of whatyou would call discrimination,
but again, nothing compared towhat my son went through with
his schizophrenia.
Nothing compares to whathappened.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
I spoke with a mother .
She lived in a small town, hada young son and then all of a
sudden, overnight, he suddenlyhad some issues kind of like we
were talking about before.
Of course, the police didn'tbelieve her.
They just thought it was a kidbeing a kid.
Unfortunately, he did wind upin jail.
(20:42):
The very good part about thisis because she was living in a
small town.
The support she got from herfriends, family and just the
town was actually quite touching.
Can you relate to that?
When you were having issueswith your son, did you have
people around that weresupporting you, helping you?
(21:02):
Reaching out, as we've talkedabout, the stigma of psychosis
versus autism is a completelydifferent situation.
So how did they treat you?
Did you feel like you was acast out or did you feel like
the community was trying to helpand support you?
Speaker 2 (21:19):
Good question.
I didn't get any help orsupport.
I also don't think I reachedout and I should have Again,
again, having my background, Ithink I thought that doctors and
these hospitals that I triedtaking my son to and all these
places would see what I saw.
I didn't know that you had toliterally write down a whole
(21:40):
agenda.
I didn't know that you had tobe suicidal in order to get help
.
I didn't know that psychosiswasn't enough.
I didn't know that they wouldtransfer him enough.
I didn't know that they wouldtransfer him and not call me
when he got out.
I didn't understand how seriousHIPAA laws were against parents
and I did not experience thesupport and I think most of the
(22:01):
Arizona madmoms have never feltsupported.
So my son, during his psychoticbreak which lasted until his
death, murdered his father andagain the first time he
attempted to assault his dadagain.
If this was my daughter, tia,she would have gone to a
hospital or she would not havebeen removed.
(22:22):
But with Joshua, even thoughhis dad was going to file a
petition again to have himplaced inpatient, this time he
wasn't on drugs and even thelast time he was still psychotic
.
That's why I knew it wasn'tdrugs the first time he went to
the screening center.
This time, during that petitionprocess, my ex-husband called
(22:44):
the police to just take him tokeep him safe because he was
trying to kill himself andothers, and they took him to
jail instead, and that's whatstarted the whole incarceration
process that led to again, themurder and then the death and I
even took him being a nurse.
I knew what to say.
(23:05):
And then the death.
And I even took him being anurse.
I knew what to say.
I took him to seven differentscreening centers and seven
different hospitals to try toget him help.
He was turned away by everyone.
During that time I had let themknow that he had pulled a knife
, that he was delusional, thathe was threatening, that he
wasn't making sense.
Basically, I was afraid of himbecause he wasn't suicidal.
They didn't admit him.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
That's the reason they didn't help, because he
wasn't suicidal.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
That's right, you're allowed.
So for some reason, society hasdecided you're allowed to be
psychotic and it's okay to bepsychotic, but it's not okay to
be suicidal, and I would like tochange that, because it is not
okay to be psychotic.
More people commit suicide andhomicide during psychosis than
(23:54):
any other time.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
Is the law going to have to be changed so that the
parents or the family canintervene and get that help?
Is that what it's actuallygoing to take?
Speaker 2 (24:04):
It is Arizona.
One of the things that we diddo is we created it's not named
this anymore, but it was forJoshua's dad, john, and we
created a bill in Arizona thatrequires screening centers to
collateral information inwriting from the caretaker or
(24:24):
the parents and it's required togo into the medical chart.
So we are hoping that will helpto not just provide the intake
departments in these hospitalsand these centers more
collateral information to beable to admit, but also to
provide more safety to thefamily members, so what happened
to John doesn't happen toanybody else.
(24:45):
And we also created in Arizonawhen you mentioned Anna Signosia
, we also created a billtraining individuals on Anna
Signosia.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
Is that like a class people could take, and is it
online?
Speaker 2 (25:01):
It is.
It's a class for behavioralhealth, peer supports and staff
who work in the centers thatwork in our.
We have SMI clinics that workin our clinics to get that
training so that they understand.
A lot of people think thatanosognosia is just somebody
being a jerk or somebody notbeing defiant or somebody
(25:25):
choosing to choosing thisprocess, this thought process
disorder.
And it's not.
If I told Josh that he didn'thave syphilis or hepatitis which
I did do because he didn't haveit he showed me the spots on
his body that were not there andsaid that he knew that he had
(25:47):
that disease and he knew I wastrying to kill him because I
wasn't getting him help for thatdisease.
You couldn't tell him, evenwith a lab test, that he did not
have that disease.
That's not denial, that's amedical emergency.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
So is that something that you're trying to get
changed, where something likethat would be the criteria to
actually get him outside help?
Speaker 2 (26:11):
I would like to and many of us mad moms would like
to escalate psychosis to thelevel that we've escalated
suicide.
If somebody says they'resuicidal, they're straight into
a hospital, paid attention to.
It's important.
Even if they've said they'resuicidal 300 times and had been
admitted to a hospital 27 times,they're still admitted for
(26:33):
suicidal thoughts.
But if somebody comes in andsays that they're out of their
medicine, people are followingthem.
They think that the aliens havecome down and taken over their
body.
That's not a reason to admitsomebody.
That's not a reason to treatsomebody and we want to elevate
that to the same level ofemergency that suicide is.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
Yeah, that's a good point.
Now what would you like to tellthe listeners that you think is
very important, that they needto hear about what it is that
you're trying to do?
Speaker 2 (27:10):
neighbors, even if they're deranged and insane.
Are we going to care for thoseindividuals in society or should
we place them in asylums orinstitutions where people who
(27:33):
want to care for them are goingto care for them?
The idea of placing somebody inthe jail system for having
schizophrenia even when they dothese horrendous things which I
know, they're horrendous thingsand I understand that but not
treating them why they're injail and prison is torture.
(27:55):
My son believed that he wasbeing raped, that everybody was
against him.
He jumped off a balcony,breaking his back and both of
his heels because he thought hewas resurrecting a female from
hell.
He tried to kill himselfmultiple times.
He felt that the devil had comeinto his body.
(28:16):
He could tell because it waschanging the way he looked.
Leaving people in jail to belaughed at by guards and to be
treated like that is inhumane.
It's absolutely inhumane andwhether you're going to
incarcerate people, whetheryou're going to put them in a
hospital or whether we're goingto try to treat them in the
community, somehow, we have tohave love and humanity for these
(28:39):
individuals that, once they'retreated, would never do those
things that they did.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
Yeah, I think that's great.
There's definitely a lot oftragedy that happens because of
this and we definitely need toget a better handle on this so
that it can get under control or, at the very least, give people
an option to do the things thatthey need to do so they can
have a better life.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
Yep.
So yesterday, josh was soinflicted with his illness that
he did not know how to use thetelephone.
Between September 27th, wheresomebody taught him how to use
the phone, and yesterday, a yearago, yesterday, we talked every
single day for 30 to 40 minutes, depending on what the devil
(29:26):
would let him do, what hisvoices would let him do.
We talked about love andkindness, forgiveness.
We talked about hisschizophrenia.
I tried to give him hope.
We talked about his delusions.
That's how come I know so muchabout him.
So on December 19th, one yearago, he was transferred to
prison and 2020, they didn't docell checks, they didn't put him
(29:48):
in a suicide watch room and hecommitted suicide.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
Yeah, that's a very rough situation to deal with.
Well, this has been greatconversation, great information.
I really appreciate you takingthe time to tell us your story.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
I appreciate you.
I really do.
I appreciate what you're doing.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
Well, it's been my pleasure.
Thanks again.
Thanks for taking the time outof your busy schedule to listen
to our show today.
We hope that you enjoyed it asmuch as we enjoyed bringing it
to you.
If you know anyone that wouldlike to tell us their story,
(30:30):
send them to tonymantorcomcontact then they can give us
their information so one daythey may be a guest on our show.
One more thing we ask telleveryone, everyone everywhere,
about why Not Me, the World, theconversations we're having and
(30:50):
the inspiration our guests giveto everyone everywhere, that you
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True Crime Tonight
If you eat, sleep, and breathe true crime, TRUE CRIME TONIGHT is serving up your nightly fix. Five nights a week, KT STUDIOS & iHEART RADIO invite listeners to pull up a seat for an unfiltered look at the biggest cases making headlines, celebrity scandals, and the trials everyone is watching. With a mix of expert analysis, hot takes, and listener call-ins, TRUE CRIME TONIGHT goes beyond the headlines to uncover the twists, turns, and unanswered questions that keep us all obsessed—because, at TRUE CRIME TONIGHT, there’s a seat for everyone. Whether breaking down crime scene forensics, scrutinizing serial killers, or debating the most binge-worthy true crime docs, True Crime Tonight is the fresh, fast-paced, and slightly addictive home for true crime lovers.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com