April 11, 2025 • 29 mins
Doug Passon shares his journey as a criminal defense lawyer and filmmaker advocating for autistic individuals in the legal system, drawing from both his professional experience and personal connection as a parent of an autistic son.
• Criminal defense lawyer who uses documentary filmmaking to humanize clients at sentencing
• Pioneered the use of video in sentencing mitigation, recognized by Wall Street Journal
• Self-described as both lawyer and filmmaker who shows humanity behind the case file
• Explains how many autistic defendants lack proper diagnosis before entering legal system
• Describes the "Three Pillars" leading to legal trouble: isolation, hyperfocus, and poor executive functioning
• Challenges misconceptions about "high-functioning" autism masking genuine impairments
• Emphasizes perspective-taking difficulties ("mind blindness") common in autism
• Reports near-zero recidivism rate among autistic defendants who receive proper support
• Advocates for better education among legal professionals about autism
• Warns parents about online vulnerabilities that can lead autistic children into legal trouble
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to why Not Me ?
The World Podcast, hosted byTony Mantor, broadcasting from
Music City, usa, nashville,tennessee.
Join us as our guests tell ustheir stories.
Some will make you laugh, somewill make you cry.
Their stories Some will makeyou laugh, some will make you
(00:28):
cry.
Real life people who willinspire and show that you are
not alone in this world.
Hopefully, you gain moreawareness, acceptance and a
better understanding for autismaround the world.
Hi, I'm Tony Minotaur.
(00:53):
Welcome to why Not Me?
The World Humanity OverHandcuffs the Silent Crisis
special event.
Joining us today is Doug Passon.
He is a seasoned criminaldefense lawyer with over 30
years of experience.
He's an award-winningdocumentary filmmaker,
recognized by the Wall StreetJournal as a pioneer in the use
(01:13):
of video in sentencingmitigation.
He is a gifted storyteller andhas joined us today to tell his
story of advocating for autismin the legal system.
Thanks for coming on.
If you would give us a littleinformation about yourself.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Yeah, so I'm a criminal defense lawyer and I
have been for almost 30 years,and I'm also a filmmaker.
So my whole life was one of twotracks lawyer or filmmaker as
long as I can remember.
And when college was over, Ihad to pick a path and I chose
lawyer.
It made more sense.
I think my folks were worriedI'd be sleeping on their couch
(01:50):
until I was 35 if I was astarving artist.
But I was always passionateabout the law and always
passionate about criminaldefense.
I wanted to be a publicdefender, passionate about
justice issues.
I chose that path, but I wasalways making films and
immersing myself in story andreading all the books, taking
classes.
Eventually those two thingsintersected and I figured out
(02:11):
very fast.
The system was so dehumanizingand we're not even at the autism
piece.
This is just the criminaljustice system.
When you get charged with acrime, you're reduced to a stack
of paper and a file and you'regoing to be defined by the worst
mistake you ever made andthat's as much as you are and
will ever be and you're amonster and we need to punish
you to the fullest extent of thelaw.
(02:31):
And blah, blah, blah.
And I just saw that over andover again, and my job
especially, given that mostpeople who find themselves
indicted, charged with a crime,they're going to end up at
sentencing.
That's the odds.
You know.
The odds are.
You know, even in I work mostlyin the federal system 96, 7, 8%
of those people are pleadingguilty.
They're not even having a trial.
(02:52):
So you know they're gettingsentenced.
And then the small percentageof people that go to trial they
don't always win.
I found myself trying to bereally just being a storyteller
and showing the humanity of myclients, my clients.
Yes, they made a mistake, yes,there's going to be a
consequence, but the question is, what's a fair consequence?
(03:12):
And the only way you canmeasure that it's not by the
crime, it's by you've got tojudge the person as much as
you're going to be judging thecrime, and that's the only way
you can judge what is a fairconsequence.
So what is your life story?
And that's my thing.
I'm a storyteller and I need tomake sure that the people that
are making these life and deathdecisions understand the human
(03:34):
being behind the crime.
So I started making movies andcases.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
Wow, that's pretty interesting.
When did you start doing thefilming?
Speaker 2 (03:42):
2005 was actually my first video and I figured out it
was a really powerful way toadvocate In the federal system.
A lot of times the first timethe judge ever lays eyes on a
client is at sentencing, becausethey've gone through magistrate
and other lower court judges toplead guilty and these
ministerial things.
And now all of a sudden, thewhole time they've just been,
(04:02):
like I said, stack of paper anda file.
So you can get this video.
It's a short documentary aboutthe case or the client,
explaining who they are, whythey did what they did, why
they're not going to do it again, whatever the case may be.
And then the judge has that inadvance of sentencing so he or
she has actually had anopportunity to essentially meet
(04:22):
the client, sit with the client,experience the client in their
own world.
So eventually I left thetraditional legal practice to go
focus on making those movies,and that's what I do for lawyers
all over the country and I helpthem build the story.
You don't get to the movieuntil you know what the story is
that you're trying to tell andthen we make these movies.
(04:43):
When I left, that was 10 yearsago and I just envisioned myself
being the movie guy.
But guess what happened?
Speaker 1 (04:49):
What happened With what you're telling me?
I'm sure it must be pretty good.
I met Mark Mahoney.
Actually, that's great.
He's actually been on thepodcast.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
He is the lead autism criminal defense lawyer in the
world.
I would venture to say heunderstood that the huge
challenge in autism cases was toget people to understand the
truth about our clients, becausemost people don't know what it
is.
They don't know why it matters.
He understood that thesesentencing videos would be a
really powerful tool in autismcases.
(05:18):
So I started working on thesecases with him and eventually I
got pulled back into thetraditional legal practice and I
handle these cases now.
Him and eventually I got pulledback in to the traditional
legal practice and I handlethese cases now like Mark does,
and I'm always pulling Mark upgoing I need this, I need that,
and he's so generous.
So now I'm a lawyer, I'm afilmmaker and now I'm
representing these clients aswell in various stages of the
(05:40):
proceeding.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
That's so great.
What led you to doing this?
Speaker 2 (05:44):
I have a personal connection to this because I
have a son who's on the autismspectrum.
I think I got the issues morethan most and here's the big
problem there are very fewlawyers who really understand
that.
They can even recognize theissue when they have a case, let
alone understand what to dowith it, how to develop it, how
to present it and why it'smitigating, why it matters to
(06:07):
the story.
I'm so grateful to come on yourpodcast because I'm really on a
mission to educate lawyersfirst and foremost.
You don't have to knoweverything about autism, it's
okay.
Just know enough to see it, tosee the signs, and then dig
around and make sure you'vedeveloped this part of it,
because we miss it all the time.
What are the CDC statistics?
Right now, I think it's one in36.
(06:28):
Let's extrapolate the numbersbecause I think I've handled
about a thousand cases in my 30years, which means how many of
those clients were on thespectrum and I knew nothing
about it for the first 20 yearsof my practice, because we as a
society still know relativelylittle about it.
So how many of those did I missand how much detriment?
(06:49):
You know how much damageresulted because I didn't know
what I didn't know, and it's nota criticism of lawyers.
You can't be expected to knoweverything, but we have to start
opening our eyes to this issue.
It's so crucial yes, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
I did talk with Mark.
He brought up the fact that hethought that some lawyers
unfortunately just did not wantoutside help and that sometimes
could hurt the case.
How do we get past that?
Just like you said, we needlawyers out there that
understand the situation of theautistic people.
(07:25):
There's no shame in asking forhelp, especially when your
client may need it.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
Yeah, that that's the $64,000 question, because we're
a strange breed.
I don't know if it's thepersonality that's drawn to the
legal practice.
It's highly competitive.
We've gone through years ofschool.
Most of us have practiced fordecades.
We like to think we just knoweverything.
It's the difference between agrowth mindset and a fixed
(07:54):
mindset.
It's really interesting becausewhen you talk about some of the
hallmarks of autism, what is oneof the major problems or
obstacles?
Rigid thinking.
I would love to do across-sectional study of lawyers
because I have a feeling thatmany of us are probably on the
spectrum.
Especially the older lawyershave been doing this their whole
career.
This is how I do it.
(08:14):
I know what I'm doing.
I don't need you to tell me andoh, that probably doesn't
matter anyway, because theydon't know what they don't know
and I don't know how you combatthat other than educate, which
is what you're doing again,which is why I'm so grateful to
be here and just hoping that alawyer, no matter how far you've
gone in practice, you stillknow that you always have
(08:36):
something to learn.
That's just called life.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
Exactly.
Another thing Mark brought up alot of autistic people can
speak with you, speak withanyone, like a Rhodes Scholar,
yet they are still autistic.
Sometimes they lack the processof that critical thinking which
is what you brought up earlierwhere they put themselves in a
(08:59):
situation not fullyunderstanding.
They're getting themselves in asituation how do you help them
through this?
They're thrown into the legalsystem, which is very scary.
It's the big unknown to them.
What's the first step that youoffer or take to help them?
Speaker 2 (09:19):
There's a lot to unpack, If I can speak to how I
support the family.
Here's the interesting thing, Ithink.
More often than not, clientsare coming to me and they're not
diagnosed.
They don't know.
They've had these problems,they've struggled their whole
life and they've always justthought I'm weird, there's
something wrong with me, I'mwhatever, I'm this, I'm that,
(09:41):
and it's a horrible, lonely wayto go through life.
And the sad irony is thistragic occurrence of finding
themselves ensnared in thecriminal justice system is the
first time they truly begin tounderstand what their struggles
really are and that there's areal diagnosis, and I call it
(10:01):
the rush of insight.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
Okay, that's definitely interesting.
Can you expand on that?
Speaker 2 (10:07):
I'm a filmmaker, a storyteller, and the really good
stories always have that bigreveal right, you didn't see it
coming, but the seeds werealways there, they were planted
along the way, and I always useEmpire Strikes Back as my go-to
example, which is Luke, I'm yourfather.
I didn't see that one coming,but then you go back and all the
(10:27):
clues made total sense, andthen your whole story comes into
focus, and that's what happenswhen you get the autism
diagnosis.
The level of support is to saylook, I know this is horrible
and we're're gonna do our verybest to navigate this, to run
this gauntlet, and I'm gonna beby your side through the whole
thing.
Look, here's the bright side.
Now you know, and now you canstart to get the right help, the
(10:49):
right counseling, the righttools to navigate not only this
stress in your life but yourlife in general, because for
most people on the spectrum,life is unmanageable, even if
they're not involved in somekind of criminal activity, and
so there is a sense of reliefand hope that the future can be
better, once they've figured outwhat's wrong, have a path
(11:09):
forward to fix it.
The bigger challenge is what yousaid at the beginning of this
question, which is the idea ofpeople thinking well, if they
have a high intellect and theycan carry on these really
high-level conversations, thenwhatever you're saying is not
relevant.
Of course they knew what theywere doing was wrong.
How could they not have?
They graduated high school,they drive a car, they've held a
(11:31):
job, they've gone to college,whatever it is.
Nothing could be further fromthe truth.
And that is our monumentalhurdle and I'm sure Mark talked
about that too is breakingthrough that wall of complete
misunderstanding.
And you know in the criminaljustice and people are
inherently skeptical aboutdefense lawyers to begin with
that we're just trying to getour clients off and lie and
(11:54):
cheat and sell snake oil.
So when it to autism, a lot ofprosecutors call it the excuse
du jour.
Oh, this doesn't really make adifference.
But so what he has it, he'shigh functioning and so that
means his autism is mild.
I don't think your listenerscan see these air quotes that
I'm putting up, but I hate thoseterms.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
Can you expand on those terms so the listeners can
get a better understanding ofwhat you're trying to put across
?
Speaker 2 (12:20):
They don't tell the truth about the true struggles
of an autistic person.
Yes, they can have a decent IQ,maybe even a high IQ, but when
you look at their emotionalintelligence, their social
intelligence, their receptivelanguage skills, if you give
some of these folks a testcalled the Vineland assessment,
which is social, adaptivelanguage and adaptive skill set
(12:43):
and all these things, they mightcome out as an 8, 9, 10, 11,
12-year-old child on these tests.
When I try to explain to thedecision makers why this is real
, a couple of things I fall backon and I will say I don't want
to create the impression thatpeople on the spectrum are
completely broken, deficient inany way.
Yes, it is a disability, butany disability can be overcome.
(13:05):
But I do think that it's asuperpower and kryptonite all
rolled into one.
It's that kryptonite aspectthat we need to shine the light
on and say, ok, how is this sodebilitating?
Kryptonite kills superman,right?
How can autism be sodebilitating that it could cause
you to commit a crime like oh,I don't know downloading child
(13:26):
porn, meeting a 12 year old girlfor a sexual encounter in a
parking lot?
Now, your listeners, theirskin's gonna crawl.
But these are the kinds ofthings a lot of people on the
spectrum find themselves introuble for and and.
Then there are your basic fraudcases.
How do they get in trouble forcommitting white collar crimes,
not to mention, like terrorism,related offenses?
Do you know how many 1-6defendants are probably on the
(13:48):
autism spectrum?
I have a client right now whodestroyed allegedly some energy
facilities.
Why?
Because he's passionate aboutclimate change.
He knows everything there is toknow about global weather
patterns and history of climatechange, the players, the coal
industry, the fuel industry, theway this pipeline works,
(14:09):
everything, and he's brilliant.
Then he goes out and doessomething allegedly as dumb as
shooting a gun in the middle ofthe night Nobody's hurt but
blowing some holes in atransmitter to shut down this
little rinky-dink power stationin the middle of nowhere.
And the question is how couldsomeone so smart do something so
dumb?
What were they thinking?
(14:31):
And the answer is they weren'tthinking.
Because that's what autism is.
It's really an impairment ofthe way that your brain
processes information.
I know I'm talking a lot, sofeel free to shut me down or
interrupt or whatever, but theway I make sense of this in my
own mind is there's a fewpillars that lead to trouble,
(14:52):
big trouble.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
No, this is great information, not a problem at
all.
So what are some of thesethings that lead to these issues
that you was just referring to?
Speaker 2 (15:02):
First is isolation.
This part always chokes me upbecause I think of my own son.
Thank God he's never been introuble a day in his life.
Why?
Because, probably since he wasfour or five years old, he had a
diagnosis and he had parentswho understood this stuff and
had access to therapy andresources and have understood
what potential pitfalls anddangers are.
(15:22):
I do this work.
How many times have I gone intomy son's bedroom?
Hey, just to make sure, kiddo,it's not okay to do X, y, z,
right.
And he's like yeah, dad, thanks.
This is the story I have a hardtime telling.
With regard to isolation, I seepictures of my son when he's a
young boy two, three, four yearsold and he has this beautiful
(15:44):
smile, so happy.
Now I look at these picturesand he won't smile for a picture
, he just won't.
Emotional affect issues andthings with autism.
And I was looking at how muchemotion and how effervescent and
beautiful this boy was and Iasked my wife and she has a
great background in this, she'sa speech language pathologist
and she worked with autistickids in the school district I
said Rach, do you think it'spossible that autism is like
comes later in life, like it'san onset that progressive.
(16:07):
Look at his emotional affecthere and look at here and she
said no, I think more likelythan not that life has just
beaten the smile out of our son.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
Yeah, unfortunately that happens with a lot of kids.
It's just life in today's world.
I think he was bullied withvery little friends.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
Bullied Always felt bad about himself.
Teachers didn't understand him,principals didn't understand
him.
So I'm sorry, I'm gettingemotional.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
That's quite all right.
It's your son.
There's no reason to not feelthat way.
What?
Speaker 2 (16:37):
happens to these kids ?
They get isolated.
They don't have the socialinteraction to where they can
learn the things thatneurotypicals learn about.
This is the way you're supposedto interact in a sexual
situation, or this is socialreciprocity, whatever.
So what do they do?
They don't learn, but where dothey go?
You know where they go.
They go online Because it's somuch easier to communicate with
(17:00):
a person when you're notface-to-face and all that social
stuff and online is just acesspool of epic proportion that
there's nothing but troublethere.
You're vulnerable in any numberof ways, but it's also this idea
.
So now you're online, but youhave this issue.
This is the second pillar.
What is it?
Hyperfocus, areas of highinterest, people on the spectrum
(17:21):
I think it's the way theymanage anxiety just become so
interested in one thing andalways into that thing.
Great.
Online you can go as deep andas wide as you want to go on any
topic, and you may hope thatit's World War II airplanes, but
a lot of times it may be QAnonor some crazy shit that they
just keep going and going andgoing and going.
(17:42):
The last pillar is the executivefunctioning component.
So now you've got all thisinformation and ideas in your
head and you don't know what todo with it.
And you come up with a dumbidea like shooting up an energy
facility or going to meet thisgirl or whatever it is, and you
have this rigid thinking whichis, once you get this idea, it's
(18:03):
very hard to get out of it.
You have executive functioning,which means you can't plan and
predict consequences.
What happens three steps downthe road if I do this thing and
I end up in jail for this thing,or my family ends up devastated
and bankrupt from this thing,or some child God forbid ends up
getting traumatized from thisthing.
(18:24):
That's not the way the autisticbrain works and that's how they
find themselves in this terribletrouble.
And guess what?
That's why the suicide rate forautistic people is off the
charts.
Loneliness, rigid thinking thisis a solution to a problem I
can't think of a better one andthen total lack of.
How is this going to affect therest of my life, my family's
(18:44):
life, everybody?
And it's those three pillars, Ithink, explains that really.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
Yeah, that makes total sense.
And you're correct, suicide isthe second leading cause of
death among autistic peoplearound the world.
I've spoken with many autisticpeople.
They definitely do not getsocial cues.
I spoke with one person and shewas a musician.
She had several people talkingto her.
One guy was flirting with herand then her friend come up to
(19:12):
her and said you knew he wasflirting with you, right?
And she didn't have a clue.
So how do we get theprosecutors to understand?
Most autistic people do notunderstand those social cues,
like neurotypical people do.
They need to understand andhave a little more empathy to
help these people out, to get toa better solution for everyone.
(19:35):
To get to a better solution foreveryone.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
Yeah, yeah, and that is what I think we would call
the idea of mind blindness.
It's this idea of perspectivetaking.
It's so central to what we dobecause, again, the default is,
of course, you knew how thisperson would feel about what you
did.
Let's take the child sexualabuse material.
(19:58):
Right, it's a picture and it'sa picture of a child being
abused in unimaginable ways andthe neurotypical goes, looks at
that picture and isinstantaneously repulsed.
Because we have perspectivetaking, we can basically go into
the mind of that child or eventhat abuser and understand how
(20:19):
terrible that situation is.
Autistic brain can't do that.
Much of what we do is education, and there's really two ways
you can educate somebody.
You can educate them with thescience and the facts, the
scholarly articles, the eruditespeeches and everything else.
But me, I'm a storyteller and Ithink the more you can just
tell stories that bring thishome better.
(20:40):
Here's a simple one I mentioned.
I have a son on the spectrum.
He has a little brother who'snot on the spectrum and you know
how a little brother looks upto big brother.
There's a four-year differenceand one time little brother,
both into gaming and littlebrother, had this really cool
game and he wanted to show hisolder brother.
He was so excited he was surethat his older brother would
(21:02):
think that's cool.
The older brother looked at himblankly and said I really don't
care and walked away.
The neurotypical brain looks atthat and goes what a jerk.
That was the meanest thing ever.
How could he do that to hislittle brother?
But guess what?
The truth is?
He wasn't interested and hejust was being honest, telling
him the truth, which we'realways telling people on the
(21:24):
autism spectrum, who aresupposed to be rule followers.
We're always telling them totell the truth.
So in his mind, he probably dida very good thing by telling
his brother I'm not interested.
But how do you think his littlebrother felt it interested?
But how do you think his littlebrother felt it was like he
might as well just punched himright in the gut and he didn't
know any better.
But guess what?
All I had to do is sit downwith him and have the
conversation and help himunderstand.
(21:45):
They're not irrevocably broken.
They're not gonna be dangerous.
They're not dangerous people.
They're not people withmalintent.
They just don't intuit the waywe do.
But once they learn the rulesof social interaction, they can
manage that just fine.
That's why Mahoney will tellyou.
They just don't intuit the waywe do.
But once they learn the rulesof social interaction, they can
manage that just fine.
That's why Mahoney will tellyou because there's no formal
studies about this, but he keepsanecdotal statistics on all of
(22:06):
his cases about what is therecidivism rate.
In other words, once anautistic person realizes how
badly they deviated from therules and norms of society, what
are the chances they're goingto do it again?
And the answer is almost zero.
There's literally almost zerorecidivism rate among the
autistic population.
They are the most highlytreatable offenders in the
(22:27):
criminal justice system.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
Yes, I've spoken with several judges about this topic
.
They say the same thing.
I spoke with one that he'sstarting a huge facility down in
Miami.
He retired from the bench andis starting this huge facility I
think 218 beds and it's goingto just help everybody so that
(22:50):
they don't wind up back in frontof the judges again.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
Wow For autism.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
I believe it covers anyone that needs help.
Not 100% sure.
The one thing I do know he saysthat by doing this it will keep
people from showing up in frontof the judges for a second or
third or fourth time.
It also contributes to savinghundreds of thousands of dollars
(23:17):
in taxpayers' money being inthe legal system.
So if they can get it in Miami,we should be able to find a way
to make this happen all acrossthe country.
Speaker 2 (23:27):
Yes, it's a slow slog , but I love to hear the stories
about these judges.
After 30 years, I'm still anoptimist about human beings and
the human spirit and I thinkfundamentally, judges are trying
to do the right thing.
It's incumbent upon us to givethem the information they need
to make the right decision.
So that goes back to thelawyers aren't equipped to tell
(23:48):
these stories they don't know.
You hear those stories.
They're scattered all over, andthen there are some prosecutors
who get this.
You may be offered diversion orbetter plea agreement.
And are some prosecutors whoget this?
You maybe offer diversion orbetter plea agreement.
And there are judges who getthis.
And then there are some whojust don't get it or don't care.
There's legislation that'screeping in just in little dribs
and drabs.
I love Malcolm Gladwell.
(24:09):
He talks about the tippingpoint.
We are nowhere near the tippingpoint.
I feel like we're on the very,very front end of building
awareness and making widespread,lasting systemic change.
But you have to keep pointingto those little small victories,
just for the simple fact thatit validates.
We're not just blowing smokehere as defense lawyers.
(24:29):
This is real.
What we're telling you is real.
You don't have to take our wordfor it.
Look at these judges, look atthis legislation.
Whatever, I'd like to seechanges to the federal
sentencing guidelines.
I've reached out to some ofthese groups and I hope that we
can spearhead that.
I know there's been attempts tomake changes to federal
legislation, but I think it'sgot to be one step at a time,
one state at a time, onejurisdiction at a time, one
(24:52):
judge at a time and eventuallythere will be a tipping point.
And here's the sad truth.
I don't know if it's going tobe 10 years from now or 20 years
from now I hope it's not 30years from now but we're going
to look back at the way wetreated people on the spectrum
who found themselves in troubleand we're going to be horrified
and ashamed about it that wedidn't understand this better
(25:14):
and we didn't understand itquicker.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
Absolutely Interestingly, the first term
autism was introduced in 1911and associated with
schizophrenia.
Then, in 1943, it was diagnosedin children.
The way that we looked at itand treated it was not always
the best.
So in the last 25 or 30 yearsit has gotten better, but we
still have a long ways to go.
(25:37):
We really do so.
In closing, we've talked aboutseveral things here, which is
very important.
What would you like to tell thelistener that you think is very
important that they hearregarding to what you do and
what needs to be done in thefuture?
Speaker 2 (25:53):
There's so much.
We've talked about this fromthe perspective of someone who's
in trouble.
I think the most importantthing is part of the perspective
of someone who's not in trouble.
I'm a parent of an autisticchild and I know the horrors
that await them if they aren'tgiven proper resources, if they
aren't properly supervised, ifthey're left to their own
(26:15):
devices to be online 24-7.
Parents don't understand howvulnerable their children are,
and not just to being in troublerunning a fall of the law, but
to being victimized online too.
My son went to an autism school,a high school that was created
by a woman who there were nogood schools for her son son, so
(26:35):
she made an amazing school andI gave a talk to the parents,
just so you know these are thedanger zones.
Make sure you understand andyou're on top of this.
God forbid this happens to yourkid.
It's going to devastate you.
You've talked to the parentswho have kids who have been in
this system.
I cannot imagine the pain andtrauma that they go through
(26:56):
every second of the day.
So I gave this talk and it wasa litany of like worst case
scenarios and I think peoplewere interested by it and and
they were grateful for it.
But I even had one parent cometo me go so interesting, but
that would never happen to mytimmy.
And guess what?
A month later, the f FBI wasknocking at Timmy's door because
Timmy posted something onlineabout a pipe bomb.
(27:19):
Now Timmy was actuallyliterally a rocket scientist,
brilliant kid, but he builtmodel rockets and he would call
the engines.
They'd call them pipe bombs.
Guess what?
When the FBI hears you talkingabout explosive devices on
Reddit or wherever it is, you'regetting a knock at the door and
that's the last thing in theworld that you want.
I just think the most importantthing is I don't know if
(27:40):
parents understand howvulnerable their kids on the
spectrum are and, by the way, alot of parents they have kids.
They're struggling.
They may have gotten the schoolpsychologist to say I think
they're just ADD, they may be onthe spectrum, but you don't
want that diagnosis, it's justgoing to stigmatize them and
they'll still get services.
No, you get the diagnosis soyou can understand exactly what
(28:04):
your child needs and set aboutgiving it to them, and that is
the very best way to headtragedy off at the pass.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
Yeah, absolutely Wow.
This has been great.
Great conversation, greatinformation.
I really appreciate you takingthe time to come on and talk
with us about this.
All right, this has been great.
I so appreciate you.
It's been my pleasure.
Thanks again.
Thanks for taking the time outof your busy schedule to listen
(28:37):
to our show today.
We hope that you enjoyed it asmuch as we enjoyed bringing it
to you.
If you know anyone that wouldlike to tell us their story,
send them to TonyMantorcomContact then they can give us
their information so one daythey may be a guest on our show.
(28:58):
One more thing we ask telleveryone everywhere about why
not me, the world, theconversations we're having and
the inspiration our guests giveto everyone everywhere that you
are not alone in this world.
Welcome to why Not Me ?
The World Podcast, hosted byTony Mantor, broadcasting from
Music City, usa, nashville,tennessee.
Join us as our guests tell ustheir stories.
Some will make you laugh, somewill make you cry.
Their stories Some will makeyou laugh, some will make you
(00:28):
cry.
Real life people who willinspire and show that you are
not alone in this world.
Hopefully, you gain moreawareness, acceptance and a
better understanding for autismaround the world.
Hi, I'm Tony Minotaur.
(00:53):
Welcome to why Not Me?
The World Humanity OverHandcuffs the Silent Crisis
special event.
Joining us today is Doug Passon.
He is a seasoned criminaldefense lawyer with over 30
years of experience.
He's an award-winningdocumentary filmmaker,
recognized by the Wall StreetJournal as a pioneer in the use
(01:13):
of video in sentencingmitigation.
He is a gifted storyteller andhas joined us today to tell his
story of advocating for autismin the legal system.
Thanks for coming on.
If you would give us a littleinformation about yourself.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Yeah, so I'm a criminal defense lawyer and I
have been for almost 30 years,and I'm also a filmmaker.
So my whole life was one of twotracks lawyer or filmmaker as
long as I can remember.
And when college was over, Ihad to pick a path and I chose
lawyer.
It made more sense.
I think my folks were worriedI'd be sleeping on their couch
(01:50):
until I was 35 if I was astarving artist.
But I was always passionateabout the law and always
passionate about criminaldefense.
I wanted to be a publicdefender, passionate about
justice issues.
I chose that path, but I wasalways making films and
immersing myself in story andreading all the books, taking
classes.
Eventually those two thingsintersected and I figured out
(02:11):
very fast.
The system was so dehumanizingand we're not even at the autism
piece.
This is just the criminaljustice system.
When you get charged with acrime, you're reduced to a stack
of paper and a file and you'regoing to be defined by the worst
mistake you ever made andthat's as much as you are and
will ever be and you're amonster and we need to punish
you to the fullest extent of thelaw.
(02:31):
And blah, blah, blah.
And I just saw that over andover again, and my job
especially, given that mostpeople who find themselves
indicted, charged with a crime,they're going to end up at
sentencing.
That's the odds.
You know.
The odds are.
You know, even in I work mostlyin the federal system 96, 7, 8%
of those people are pleadingguilty.
They're not even having a trial.
(02:52):
So you know they're gettingsentenced.
And then the small percentageof people that go to trial they
don't always win.
I found myself trying to bereally just being a storyteller
and showing the humanity of myclients, my clients.
Yes, they made a mistake, yes,there's going to be a
consequence, but the question is, what's a fair consequence?
(03:12):
And the only way you canmeasure that it's not by the
crime, it's by you've got tojudge the person as much as
you're going to be judging thecrime, and that's the only way
you can judge what is a fairconsequence.
So what is your life story?
And that's my thing.
I'm a storyteller and I need tomake sure that the people that
are making these life and deathdecisions understand the human
(03:34):
being behind the crime.
So I started making movies andcases.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
Wow, that's pretty interesting.
When did you start doing thefilming?
Speaker 2 (03:42):
2005 was actually my first video and I figured out it
was a really powerful way toadvocate In the federal system.
A lot of times the first timethe judge ever lays eyes on a
client is at sentencing, becausethey've gone through magistrate
and other lower court judges toplead guilty and these
ministerial things.
And now all of a sudden, thewhole time they've just been,
(04:02):
like I said, stack of paper anda file.
So you can get this video.
It's a short documentary aboutthe case or the client,
explaining who they are, whythey did what they did, why
they're not going to do it again, whatever the case may be.
And then the judge has that inadvance of sentencing so he or
she has actually had anopportunity to essentially meet
(04:22):
the client, sit with the client,experience the client in their
own world.
So eventually I left thetraditional legal practice to go
focus on making those movies,and that's what I do for lawyers
all over the country and I helpthem build the story.
You don't get to the movieuntil you know what the story is
that you're trying to tell andthen we make these movies.
(04:43):
When I left, that was 10 yearsago and I just envisioned myself
being the movie guy.
But guess what happened?
Speaker 1 (04:49):
What happened With what you're telling me?
I'm sure it must be pretty good.
I met Mark Mahoney.
Actually, that's great.
He's actually been on thepodcast.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
He is the lead autism criminal defense lawyer in the
world.
I would venture to say heunderstood that the huge
challenge in autism cases was toget people to understand the
truth about our clients, becausemost people don't know what it
is.
They don't know why it matters.
He understood that thesesentencing videos would be a
really powerful tool in autismcases.
(05:18):
So I started working on thesecases with him and eventually I
got pulled back into thetraditional legal practice and I
handle these cases now.
Him and eventually I got pulledback in to the traditional
legal practice and I handlethese cases now like Mark does,
and I'm always pulling Mark upgoing I need this, I need that,
and he's so generous.
So now I'm a lawyer, I'm afilmmaker and now I'm
representing these clients aswell in various stages of the
(05:40):
proceeding.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
That's so great.
What led you to doing this?
Speaker 2 (05:44):
I have a personal connection to this because I
have a son who's on the autismspectrum.
I think I got the issues morethan most and here's the big
problem there are very fewlawyers who really understand
that.
They can even recognize theissue when they have a case, let
alone understand what to dowith it, how to develop it, how
to present it and why it'smitigating, why it matters to
(06:07):
the story.
I'm so grateful to come on yourpodcast because I'm really on a
mission to educate lawyersfirst and foremost.
You don't have to knoweverything about autism, it's
okay.
Just know enough to see it, tosee the signs, and then dig
around and make sure you'vedeveloped this part of it,
because we miss it all the time.
What are the CDC statistics?
Right now, I think it's one in36.
(06:28):
Let's extrapolate the numbersbecause I think I've handled
about a thousand cases in my 30years, which means how many of
those clients were on thespectrum and I knew nothing
about it for the first 20 yearsof my practice, because we as a
society still know relativelylittle about it.
So how many of those did I missand how much detriment?
(06:49):
You know how much damageresulted because I didn't know
what I didn't know, and it's nota criticism of lawyers.
You can't be expected to knoweverything, but we have to start
opening our eyes to this issue.
It's so crucial yes, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
I did talk with Mark.
He brought up the fact that hethought that some lawyers
unfortunately just did not wantoutside help and that sometimes
could hurt the case.
How do we get past that?
Just like you said, we needlawyers out there that
understand the situation of theautistic people.
(07:25):
There's no shame in asking forhelp, especially when your
client may need it.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
Yeah, that that's the $64,000 question, because we're
a strange breed.
I don't know if it's thepersonality that's drawn to the
legal practice.
It's highly competitive.
We've gone through years ofschool.
Most of us have practiced fordecades.
We like to think we just knoweverything.
It's the difference between agrowth mindset and a fixed
(07:54):
mindset.
It's really interesting becausewhen you talk about some of the
hallmarks of autism, what is oneof the major problems or
obstacles?
Rigid thinking.
I would love to do across-sectional study of lawyers
because I have a feeling thatmany of us are probably on the
spectrum.
Especially the older lawyershave been doing this their whole
career.
This is how I do it.
(08:14):
I know what I'm doing.
I don't need you to tell me andoh, that probably doesn't
matter anyway, because theydon't know what they don't know
and I don't know how you combatthat other than educate, which
is what you're doing again,which is why I'm so grateful to
be here and just hoping that alawyer, no matter how far you've
gone in practice, you stillknow that you always have
(08:36):
something to learn.
That's just called life.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
Exactly.
Another thing Mark brought up alot of autistic people can
speak with you, speak withanyone, like a Rhodes Scholar,
yet they are still autistic.
Sometimes they lack the processof that critical thinking which
is what you brought up earlierwhere they put themselves in a
(08:59):
situation not fullyunderstanding.
They're getting themselves in asituation how do you help them
through this?
They're thrown into the legalsystem, which is very scary.
It's the big unknown to them.
What's the first step that youoffer or take to help them?
Speaker 2 (09:19):
There's a lot to unpack, If I can speak to how I
support the family.
Here's the interesting thing, Ithink.
More often than not, clientsare coming to me and they're not
diagnosed.
They don't know.
They've had these problems,they've struggled their whole
life and they've always justthought I'm weird, there's
something wrong with me, I'mwhatever, I'm this, I'm that,
(09:41):
and it's a horrible, lonely wayto go through life.
And the sad irony is thistragic occurrence of finding
themselves ensnared in thecriminal justice system is the
first time they truly begin tounderstand what their struggles
really are and that there's areal diagnosis, and I call it
(10:01):
the rush of insight.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
Okay, that's definitely interesting.
Can you expand on that?
Speaker 2 (10:07):
I'm a filmmaker, a storyteller, and the really good
stories always have that bigreveal right, you didn't see it
coming, but the seeds werealways there, they were planted
along the way, and I always useEmpire Strikes Back as my go-to
example, which is Luke, I'm yourfather.
I didn't see that one coming,but then you go back and all the
(10:27):
clues made total sense, andthen your whole story comes into
focus, and that's what happenswhen you get the autism
diagnosis.
The level of support is to saylook, I know this is horrible
and we're're gonna do our verybest to navigate this, to run
this gauntlet, and I'm gonna beby your side through the whole
thing.
Look, here's the bright side.
Now you know, and now you canstart to get the right help, the
(10:49):
right counseling, the righttools to navigate not only this
stress in your life but yourlife in general, because for
most people on the spectrum,life is unmanageable, even if
they're not involved in somekind of criminal activity, and
so there is a sense of reliefand hope that the future can be
better, once they've figured outwhat's wrong, have a path
(11:09):
forward to fix it.
The bigger challenge is what yousaid at the beginning of this
question, which is the idea ofpeople thinking well, if they
have a high intellect and theycan carry on these really
high-level conversations, thenwhatever you're saying is not
relevant.
Of course they knew what theywere doing was wrong.
How could they not have?
They graduated high school,they drive a car, they've held a
(11:31):
job, they've gone to college,whatever it is.
Nothing could be further fromthe truth.
And that is our monumentalhurdle and I'm sure Mark talked
about that too is breakingthrough that wall of complete
misunderstanding.
And you know in the criminaljustice and people are
inherently skeptical aboutdefense lawyers to begin with
that we're just trying to getour clients off and lie and
(11:54):
cheat and sell snake oil.
So when it to autism, a lot ofprosecutors call it the excuse
du jour.
Oh, this doesn't really make adifference.
But so what he has it, he'shigh functioning and so that
means his autism is mild.
I don't think your listenerscan see these air quotes that
I'm putting up, but I hate thoseterms.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
Can you expand on those terms so the listeners can
get a better understanding ofwhat you're trying to put across
?
Speaker 2 (12:20):
They don't tell the truth about the true struggles
of an autistic person.
Yes, they can have a decent IQ,maybe even a high IQ, but when
you look at their emotionalintelligence, their social
intelligence, their receptivelanguage skills, if you give
some of these folks a testcalled the Vineland assessment,
which is social, adaptivelanguage and adaptive skill set
(12:43):
and all these things, they mightcome out as an 8, 9, 10, 11,
12-year-old child on these tests.
When I try to explain to thedecision makers why this is real
, a couple of things I fall backon and I will say I don't want
to create the impression thatpeople on the spectrum are
completely broken, deficient inany way.
Yes, it is a disability, butany disability can be overcome.
(13:05):
But I do think that it's asuperpower and kryptonite all
rolled into one.
It's that kryptonite aspectthat we need to shine the light
on and say, ok, how is this sodebilitating?
Kryptonite kills superman,right?
How can autism be sodebilitating that it could cause
you to commit a crime like oh,I don't know downloading child
(13:26):
porn, meeting a 12 year old girlfor a sexual encounter in a
parking lot?
Now, your listeners, theirskin's gonna crawl.
But these are the kinds ofthings a lot of people on the
spectrum find themselves introuble for and and.
Then there are your basic fraudcases.
How do they get in trouble forcommitting white collar crimes,
not to mention, like terrorism,related offenses?
Do you know how many 1-6defendants are probably on the
(13:48):
autism spectrum?
I have a client right now whodestroyed allegedly some energy
facilities.
Why?
Because he's passionate aboutclimate change.
He knows everything there is toknow about global weather
patterns and history of climatechange, the players, the coal
industry, the fuel industry, theway this pipeline works,
(14:09):
everything, and he's brilliant.
Then he goes out and doessomething allegedly as dumb as
shooting a gun in the middle ofthe night Nobody's hurt but
blowing some holes in atransmitter to shut down this
little rinky-dink power stationin the middle of nowhere.
And the question is how couldsomeone so smart do something so
dumb?
What were they thinking?
(14:31):
And the answer is they weren'tthinking.
Because that's what autism is.
It's really an impairment ofthe way that your brain
processes information.
I know I'm talking a lot, sofeel free to shut me down or
interrupt or whatever, but theway I make sense of this in my
own mind is there's a fewpillars that lead to trouble,
(14:52):
big trouble.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
No, this is great information, not a problem at
all.
So what are some of thesethings that lead to these issues
that you was just referring to?
Speaker 2 (15:02):
First is isolation.
This part always chokes me upbecause I think of my own son.
Thank God he's never been introuble a day in his life.
Why?
Because, probably since he wasfour or five years old, he had a
diagnosis and he had parentswho understood this stuff and
had access to therapy andresources and have understood
what potential pitfalls anddangers are.
(15:22):
I do this work.
How many times have I gone intomy son's bedroom?
Hey, just to make sure, kiddo,it's not okay to do X, y, z,
right.
And he's like yeah, dad, thanks.
This is the story I have a hardtime telling.
With regard to isolation, I seepictures of my son when he's a
young boy two, three, four yearsold and he has this beautiful
(15:44):
smile, so happy.
Now I look at these picturesand he won't smile for a picture
, he just won't.
Emotional affect issues andthings with autism.
And I was looking at how muchemotion and how effervescent and
beautiful this boy was and Iasked my wife and she has a
great background in this, she'sa speech language pathologist
and she worked with autistickids in the school district I
said Rach, do you think it'spossible that autism is like
comes later in life, like it'san onset that progressive.
(16:07):
Look at his emotional affecthere and look at here and she
said no, I think more likelythan not that life has just
beaten the smile out of our son.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
Yeah, unfortunately that happens with a lot of kids.
It's just life in today's world.
I think he was bullied withvery little friends.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
Bullied Always felt bad about himself.
Teachers didn't understand him,principals didn't understand
him.
So I'm sorry, I'm gettingemotional.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
That's quite all right.
It's your son.
There's no reason to not feelthat way.
What?
Speaker 2 (16:37):
happens to these kids ?
They get isolated.
They don't have the socialinteraction to where they can
learn the things thatneurotypicals learn about.
This is the way you're supposedto interact in a sexual
situation, or this is socialreciprocity, whatever.
So what do they do?
They don't learn, but where dothey go?
You know where they go.
They go online Because it's somuch easier to communicate with
(17:00):
a person when you're notface-to-face and all that social
stuff and online is just acesspool of epic proportion that
there's nothing but troublethere.
You're vulnerable in any numberof ways, but it's also this idea
.
So now you're online, but youhave this issue.
This is the second pillar.
What is it?
Hyperfocus, areas of highinterest, people on the spectrum
(17:21):
I think it's the way theymanage anxiety just become so
interested in one thing andalways into that thing.
Great.
Online you can go as deep andas wide as you want to go on any
topic, and you may hope thatit's World War II airplanes, but
a lot of times it may be QAnonor some crazy shit that they
just keep going and going andgoing and going.
(17:42):
The last pillar is the executivefunctioning component.
So now you've got all thisinformation and ideas in your
head and you don't know what todo with it.
And you come up with a dumbidea like shooting up an energy
facility or going to meet thisgirl or whatever it is, and you
have this rigid thinking whichis, once you get this idea, it's
(18:03):
very hard to get out of it.
You have executive functioning,which means you can't plan and
predict consequences.
What happens three steps downthe road if I do this thing and
I end up in jail for this thing,or my family ends up devastated
and bankrupt from this thing,or some child God forbid ends up
getting traumatized from thisthing.
(18:24):
That's not the way the autisticbrain works and that's how they
find themselves in this terribletrouble.
And guess what?
That's why the suicide rate forautistic people is off the
charts.
Loneliness, rigid thinking thisis a solution to a problem I
can't think of a better one andthen total lack of.
How is this going to affect therest of my life, my family's
(18:44):
life, everybody?
And it's those three pillars, Ithink, explains that really.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
Yeah, that makes total sense.
And you're correct, suicide isthe second leading cause of
death among autistic peoplearound the world.
I've spoken with many autisticpeople.
They definitely do not getsocial cues.
I spoke with one person and shewas a musician.
She had several people talkingto her.
One guy was flirting with herand then her friend come up to
(19:12):
her and said you knew he wasflirting with you, right?
And she didn't have a clue.
So how do we get theprosecutors to understand?
Most autistic people do notunderstand those social cues,
like neurotypical people do.
They need to understand andhave a little more empathy to
help these people out, to get toa better solution for everyone.
(19:35):
To get to a better solution foreveryone.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
Yeah, yeah, and that is what I think we would call
the idea of mind blindness.
It's this idea of perspectivetaking.
It's so central to what we dobecause, again, the default is,
of course, you knew how thisperson would feel about what you
did.
Let's take the child sexualabuse material.
(19:58):
Right, it's a picture and it'sa picture of a child being
abused in unimaginable ways andthe neurotypical goes, looks at
that picture and isinstantaneously repulsed.
Because we have perspectivetaking, we can basically go into
the mind of that child or eventhat abuser and understand how
(20:19):
terrible that situation is.
Autistic brain can't do that.
Much of what we do is education, and there's really two ways
you can educate somebody.
You can educate them with thescience and the facts, the
scholarly articles, the eruditespeeches and everything else.
But me, I'm a storyteller and Ithink the more you can just
tell stories that bring thishome better.
(20:40):
Here's a simple one I mentioned.
I have a son on the spectrum.
He has a little brother who'snot on the spectrum and you know
how a little brother looks upto big brother.
There's a four-year differenceand one time little brother,
both into gaming and littlebrother, had this really cool
game and he wanted to show hisolder brother.
He was so excited he was surethat his older brother would
(21:02):
think that's cool.
The older brother looked at himblankly and said I really don't
care and walked away.
The neurotypical brain looks atthat and goes what a jerk.
That was the meanest thing ever.
How could he do that to hislittle brother?
But guess what?
The truth is?
He wasn't interested and hejust was being honest, telling
him the truth, which we'realways telling people on the
(21:24):
autism spectrum, who aresupposed to be rule followers.
We're always telling them totell the truth.
So in his mind, he probably dida very good thing by telling
his brother I'm not interested.
But how do you think his littlebrother felt it interested?
But how do you think his littlebrother felt it was like he
might as well just punched himright in the gut and he didn't
know any better.
But guess what?
All I had to do is sit downwith him and have the
conversation and help himunderstand.
(21:45):
They're not irrevocably broken.
They're not gonna be dangerous.
They're not dangerous people.
They're not people withmalintent.
They just don't intuit the waywe do.
But once they learn the rulesof social interaction, they can
manage that just fine.
That's why Mahoney will tellyou.
They just don't intuit the waywe do.
But once they learn the rulesof social interaction, they can
manage that just fine.
That's why Mahoney will tellyou because there's no formal
studies about this, but he keepsanecdotal statistics on all of
(22:06):
his cases about what is therecidivism rate.
In other words, once anautistic person realizes how
badly they deviated from therules and norms of society, what
are the chances they're goingto do it again?
And the answer is almost zero.
There's literally almost zerorecidivism rate among the
autistic population.
They are the most highlytreatable offenders in the
(22:27):
criminal justice system.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
Yes, I've spoken with several judges about this topic
.
They say the same thing.
I spoke with one that he'sstarting a huge facility down in
Miami.
He retired from the bench andis starting this huge facility I
think 218 beds and it's goingto just help everybody so that
(22:50):
they don't wind up back in frontof the judges again.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
Wow For autism.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
I believe it covers anyone that needs help.
Not 100% sure.
The one thing I do know he saysthat by doing this it will keep
people from showing up in frontof the judges for a second or
third or fourth time.
It also contributes to savinghundreds of thousands of dollars
(23:17):
in taxpayers' money being inthe legal system.
So if they can get it in Miami,we should be able to find a way
to make this happen all acrossthe country.
Speaker 2 (23:27):
Yes, it's a slow slog , but I love to hear the stories
about these judges.
After 30 years, I'm still anoptimist about human beings and
the human spirit and I thinkfundamentally, judges are trying
to do the right thing.
It's incumbent upon us to givethem the information they need
to make the right decision.
So that goes back to thelawyers aren't equipped to tell
(23:48):
these stories they don't know.
You hear those stories.
They're scattered all over, andthen there are some prosecutors
who get this.
You may be offered diversion orbetter plea agreement.
And are some prosecutors whoget this?
You maybe offer diversion orbetter plea agreement.
And there are judges who getthis.
And then there are some whojust don't get it or don't care.
There's legislation that'screeping in just in little dribs
and drabs.
I love Malcolm Gladwell.
(24:09):
He talks about the tippingpoint.
We are nowhere near the tippingpoint.
I feel like we're on the very,very front end of building
awareness and making widespread,lasting systemic change.
But you have to keep pointingto those little small victories,
just for the simple fact thatit validates.
We're not just blowing smokehere as defense lawyers.
(24:29):
This is real.
What we're telling you is real.
You don't have to take our wordfor it.
Look at these judges, look atthis legislation.
Whatever, I'd like to seechanges to the federal
sentencing guidelines.
I've reached out to some ofthese groups and I hope that we
can spearhead that.
I know there's been attempts tomake changes to federal
legislation, but I think it'sgot to be one step at a time,
one state at a time, onejurisdiction at a time, one
(24:52):
judge at a time and eventuallythere will be a tipping point.
And here's the sad truth.
I don't know if it's going tobe 10 years from now or 20 years
from now I hope it's not 30years from now but we're going
to look back at the way wetreated people on the spectrum
who found themselves in troubleand we're going to be horrified
and ashamed about it that wedidn't understand this better
(25:14):
and we didn't understand itquicker.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
Absolutely Interestingly, the first term
autism was introduced in 1911and associated with
schizophrenia.
Then, in 1943, it was diagnosedin children.
The way that we looked at itand treated it was not always
the best.
So in the last 25 or 30 yearsit has gotten better, but we
still have a long ways to go.
(25:37):
We really do so.
In closing, we've talked aboutseveral things here, which is
very important.
What would you like to tell thelistener that you think is very
important that they hearregarding to what you do and
what needs to be done in thefuture?
Speaker 2 (25:53):
There's so much.
We've talked about this fromthe perspective of someone who's
in trouble.
I think the most importantthing is part of the perspective
of someone who's not in trouble.
I'm a parent of an autisticchild and I know the horrors
that await them if they aren'tgiven proper resources, if they
aren't properly supervised, ifthey're left to their own
(26:15):
devices to be online 24-7.
Parents don't understand howvulnerable their children are,
and not just to being in troublerunning a fall of the law, but
to being victimized online too.
My son went to an autism school,a high school that was created
by a woman who there were nogood schools for her son son, so
(26:35):
she made an amazing school andI gave a talk to the parents,
just so you know these are thedanger zones.
Make sure you understand andyou're on top of this.
God forbid this happens to yourkid.
It's going to devastate you.
You've talked to the parentswho have kids who have been in
this system.
I cannot imagine the pain andtrauma that they go through
(26:56):
every second of the day.
So I gave this talk and it wasa litany of like worst case
scenarios and I think peoplewere interested by it and and
they were grateful for it.
But I even had one parent cometo me go so interesting, but
that would never happen to mytimmy.
And guess what?
A month later, the f FBI wasknocking at Timmy's door because
Timmy posted something onlineabout a pipe bomb.
(27:19):
Now Timmy was actuallyliterally a rocket scientist,
brilliant kid, but he builtmodel rockets and he would call
the engines.
They'd call them pipe bombs.
Guess what?
When the FBI hears you talkingabout explosive devices on
Reddit or wherever it is, you'regetting a knock at the door and
that's the last thing in theworld that you want.
I just think the most importantthing is I don't know if
(27:40):
parents understand howvulnerable their kids on the
spectrum are and, by the way, alot of parents they have kids.
They're struggling.
They may have gotten the schoolpsychologist to say I think
they're just ADD, they may be onthe spectrum, but you don't
want that diagnosis, it's justgoing to stigmatize them and
they'll still get services.
No, you get the diagnosis soyou can understand exactly what
(28:04):
your child needs and set aboutgiving it to them, and that is
the very best way to headtragedy off at the pass.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
Yeah, absolutely Wow.
This has been great.
Great conversation, greatinformation.
I really appreciate you takingthe time to come on and talk
with us about this.
All right, this has been great.
I so appreciate you.
It's been my pleasure.
Thanks again.
Thanks for taking the time outof your busy schedule to listen
(28:37):
to our show today.
We hope that you enjoyed it asmuch as we enjoyed bringing it
to you.
If you know anyone that wouldlike to tell us their story,
send them to TonyMantorcomContact then they can give us
their information so one daythey may be a guest on our show.
(28:58):
One more thing we ask telleveryone everywhere about why
not me, the world, theconversations we're having and
the inspiration our guests giveto everyone everywhere that you
are not alone in this world.
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