May 13, 2025 • 30 mins
Eric Smith shares his remarkable journey from child piano prodigy to mental health advocate after battling psychosis and addiction.
His story reveals how finding the right medication after a decade of failed treatments transformed his life from hospitalization and FBI involvement to becoming a Texas Judicial Commissioner on Mental Health.
• Displayed extraordinary musical talent from age three, studying under world-renowned pianists and performing with Grammy winners
• Experienced early warning signs when grades declined in middle school, with a psychologist predicting future psychosis
• Developed full-blown psychosis after getting sober, believing he had decoded assassination plots involving world leaders
• Contacted the FBI about his delusions, leading to multiple meetings before his parents sought help from his former psychiatrist
• Required three hospitalizations over several years before finding success with Clozapine after more than 10 years of failed medications
• Experienced a profound moment of clarity two weeks after starting Clozapine when the "noise" in his mind quieted
• Returned to education, maintaining a perfect 4.0 GPA through graduate school
• Now serves as a commissioner with the Texas Judicial Commission on Mental Health and runs his own consulting business
• Advocates for better access to effective treatments like Clozapine, which international guidelines recommend after two failed antipsychotics
Visit www.ericwtsmith.com to learn more about Eric's consulting work or to contact him directly.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to why Not Me ?
The World Podcast, hosted byTony Mantor, broadcasting from
Music City, usa, nashville,tennessee.
Join us as our guests tell ustheir stories.
Some will make you laugh, somewill make you cry.
Their stories Some will makeyou laugh, some will make you
(00:30):
cry.
Real life people who willinspire and show that you are
not alone in this world.
Hopefully, you gain moreawareness, acceptance and a
better understanding for autismAround the World.
Hi, I'm Tony Mantour.
(00:52):
Welcome to why Not Me?
The World Humanity OverHandcuffs the Silent Crisis
special event.
Joining us today is Eric Smith,a nationally recognized mental
health advocate, public speakerand consultant.
He is a commissioner with theTexas Judicial Commission on
Mental Health and is the founderof Eric WT Smith Consulting LLC
, where he provides invaluablesupport to families and
(01:16):
individuals affected by seriousmental illness.
With his wealth of knowledgeand experience, we're grateful
to have him here today.
Thanks for coming on, hey, tony.
How's it going Going?
Great thanks.
Can you give us a littlebackground on how your journey
with mental health started?
Speaker 2 (01:32):
So right around age three, a little kid living at
home with my mom and dad, theyhad an old school upright piano,
small home, small piano.
I have memories of this andthere's photos of it somewhere
here.
Music was such a driving forcein my life.
I remember getting ready for abath one night I had this melody
in my head from the sound ofmusic and it was, you know, it's
(01:54):
the famous Doe a deer femaledeer song, if anyone's familiar
with that.
And I had this in my head and Iremember the bath is being
drawn and I just run, run, runout to the piano and I'm there,
not playing some expert versionof it, but I'm sitting there.
I plan a key, a key a C, noflats, no sharps for the
musicians listening.
So it's one of the easier keysto play and I sit down and it's
like the notes Do a dear afemale and I'm doing it.
(02:16):
My parents are like you gottabe kidding me, like, like he's
transferring melody Melody tothe piano at such a young age.
And the picture to which I'mreferring that still exists is
me sitting with a.
I've still got my sweater onbut I've got like no bottoms on.
So I'm just sitting there atthe piano, just kind of like
going all out trying to play asa musician, and I think at that
point it became very apparent tomy parents that nurturing my
(02:38):
creative music side was a goodidea, because it was something I
was gravitating to in the firstplace.
So let's fast forward to likethird, fourth grade type stuff.
I am in what were advancedclasses.
For the time I was in advancedmath, advanced English I had a
lot of friends which will berelevant to a later part of the
story where I did not have a lotof friends, but for this time I
had a lot of friends and I wasstudying music.
(03:00):
It was a huge part of my lifeand it got to a point where at
the start of fifth grade, when Imoved to Texas, there was my
piano teacher who eventuallybecame, for the next several
years, my teacher.
I'm happy to share her name,anya Grykowski, who is a world
renowned classical pianist.
I started studying under herand within a very short period
of time I ended up starting tolearn pieces that were like
(03:23):
college entrance and collegeexit pieces.
But I was like in middle school.
At that point it truly becameclear that this was more than
just a hobby for me andsomething that I was excelling
in Fast forwarding to highschool.
My sophomore year was the lastfull year of high school because
I dropped out of high school.
My junior year and that'srelevant to note because right
(03:46):
around that same time I opted tostop playing music.
And this is after I had had thelocal CBS affiliate do a
primetime news story on me aboutmy musical achievements and the
accolades and whatnot.
It was after that I had thepleasure of performing on stage
with William Warfield, grammyAward winner from famously known
(04:06):
as singing Old man River fromShowboat, and everything looked
like it was a line where I'mgoing to succeed and be a
musician.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
You left high school, you stopped playing music.
What changed for you to do this?
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Serious mental illness and addiction threw a
huge wrench in it and I don'twant to get too lost in the
weeds of it, but I felt verycreative when I was seriously
mentally ill.
Very creative Part of it wasthe mania, part of it just
straight up the psychosis.
There were periods of time I'dstay awake for a day, a day and
a half, just recording music,writing music, tightening up the
lines, changing up the lyrics.
(04:38):
It was making my symptoms worse.
After I finally got sober in2006, and after I finally found
sanity some years later, I wasafraid to get back to playing
music, performing it, writing it, because it was so closely tied
to my addiction and seriousmental illness.
And I don't want to do aninjustice by saying music is bad
.
I'm saying for me, it scaredthe hell out of me that it was
(04:59):
so tied to my addiction and myserious mental illness that I
was afraid to have it be anelement in my life again.
And I've only recently, for thefirst time ever, performed
publicly again.
It was small.
I'm a member of the board ofdirectors for the Schizophrenia
and Psychosis Action Allianceand a good friend of mine and
colleague, Dr Rob Leitman youmay have heard his name before
he's there and he serves on theboard as well.
(05:20):
So he gently coaxed me intoplaying there for the board of
directors and the people whowere there for that meeting and
it was nice.
I turned around, everyone hadtheir cameras out, lots of
applause, and it was the firsttime I'd performed publicly
since before I fell ill withpsychosis and I know that was a
long answer to your question,but I'm trying to help you
understand how much music meantto me and also how much it
(05:42):
scared me due to how my lifeunfolded.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
Not a problem.
Music is a very powerfulinstrument.
It can bring back the best ofmemories.
It can bring back the worst ofmemories.
So I totally get that.
What happened that got you offtrack for everything that you
were doing at the time?
You mentioned psychosis.
With that said, what path didyour journey take you to next?
Speaker 2 (06:06):
For me, I was a straight edge kid, like I had
never been drunk or high of anykind prior to my sophomore year
of high school.
But because my grades startedto dip in middle school, there
were parent teacher conferencescalled and the teachers were
concerned that I went from beingin advanced classes to barely
passing and then eventuallyultimately failing, having to go
to summer school.
For a teacher, it's a teacher.
It's easy to look at a coupleof red flags to explore.
(06:27):
Is there fighting going on athome, which was not the case I
grew up in a very loving familyor is Eric using drugs or
alcohol, which up until thepoint I was a sophomore in high
school wasn't true.
So you just had teachers tryingto just figure out what in the
world is changing in Eric's life, my brain chemistry, like.
I'm no doctor, but I do knowwhat it's like to start falling
ill with serious mental illness.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
With all this happening, what did your parents
and teachers come up with?
Did they get any answers?
Speaker 2 (06:53):
My parents.
Just they rearranged theirentire schedules trying to take
me in to get help, take me intotutoring, seeing counselors,
psychologists, all of that.
And as part of that first majorstep in that journey, I did a
long standardized test thatwould be analyzed by a clinical
psychologist and the team tofind out are my answers for that
standardized exam consistentwith the answers of those
(07:14):
provided by people with aspecific diagnosis?
And, as it turns out, Iremember sitting in that room
when the results were beingdiscussed with my parents and I
was there.
The doctor said Mr and MrsSmith, your son Eric's answers
are consistent with individualswho were diagnosed with bipolar
disorder.
And they were like so you'resaying he's got bipolar disorder
?
Doctor was like his answers areconsistent with it and would
(07:36):
explain some of the high highshe's having and some of the low
lows he's been having.
The piece I'm about to say thisis actually what, for the first
time, really had me questioningthe validity or reliability of
psychiatry and counseling,because what he said next was
both wild and would later proveto be true.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
That's an interesting point of view for your age.
What did he have to say?
Speaker 2 (07:57):
He said Mr and Mrs Smith, don't be surprised if at
some point later, when your sonis in his 20s, if he also falls
ill with psychosis or some sortof psychotic spectrum disorder
like schizophrenia orschizoaffective disorder.
At that point I couldcollectively feel in the room
like my mom, my dad and me, notnecessarily in denial, but just
in disbelief.
Like what are you doing?
Like for sports fans out therewho remember, like Babe Ruth
(08:19):
famously, like pointing out tothe stands and then cracking one
out there, come on, like for adoctor to look at someone who's
in his young teens and say, hey,don't be surprised if you're
psychotic in your 20s.
That was a wild thing toconsider at that time.
That is exactly what happened,fast forwarding kind of through
my teens, where I drop out ofhigh school in my junior year I
get a general equivalency highschool degree and I try college.
I do okay my first semester.
(08:41):
I failed spectacularly out ofit in my second semester.
The years go by, the mentalillness gets worse, the
addiction gets worse.
As a point of relevance here, Idid get sober in 2006.
I did not get full-blownpsychosis until about three
years later.
It's worth saying, when you'reasking me this question you
asked me here a little ago, likewhat contributed to things
(09:02):
going off track, like what madeit happen.
Some of it was choice, right,like I chose to start using
drugs.
The addiction thereafter wasnot my choice, but I definitely
made a choice to start usingdrugs.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
You made that choice.
That happens.
The other part of this is yourdoctor brought up bipolar and
mental health illness in thefuture.
That wasn't your choice.
What happened next?
Speaker 2 (09:27):
The worse the illness got, and the worse the symptoms
got, the less control I hadover any of it.
I went through a period of morethan a decade's worth of trial
and error with antipsychotics,antidepressants, anti-anxiety
meds, ssris, like the wholegamut of everything, and things
kept getting worse.
So I finally got to thisdangerous point rooted on deeply
, deeply flawed logic but madesense to me at the time which
(09:49):
was this If I had any of thesediagnoses that all of these meds
are designed to treat, when Itook them as I did, things
should have started gettingbetter, but things kept getting
worse.
So I finally got to a pointwhere I was like, look, I don't
have those diagnoses because themeds that are designed to treat
those diagnoses did not and donot help me.
I was convinced I could justlive the rest of my life the way
(10:09):
that I did.
But at some point it got so bad.
The FBI got involved, the SecretService got involved.
Various embassies andconsulates from around the world
, unfortunately, were broughtinto the mess of things.
Before people are listening tothis story, they're like, oh my
God, Eric, did things ever getbetter?
Yeah, and I hope we can unpackthat and it included me being
pointed in as commissioner bythe two highest courts in Texas
(10:29):
our state Supreme Court and ourCourt of Criminal Appeals here
in Texas, where I live.
I'm so grateful to have hadopportunities to, year over year
, be invited to talk withStanford University law students
about my journey, talk withthem about policy and practice.
This is a university that Iwould never have ever had a
chance getting into.
Now I get to talk with studentswho are living their lives
(10:53):
hoping to change the futurethrough whatever line of work it
is they choose to do beinginvolved in major media, doing
this conversation like I'm doingwith you right now, tony, the
way my life ended up.
Right now, the rest of my lifewill be spent trying to help
other people who have desirableoutcomes, because, on paper,
dropping out of high school,failing out of college, getting
arrested for stuff related tomental health and mental illness
that generally doesn't bodewell for the trajectory of
(11:14):
things.
But I got lucky.
I got the treatment that Ineeded, I got the resources that
I needed, I had the supportthat I needed and for the rest
of my life I will be spending ittrying to help other people
also find that life.
It is that they want.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
That's a great thing to do.
Now you brought up the FBI andother agencies.
Can you expand on that and whatpart of the journey that was
for you?
Speaker 2 (11:35):
That's both interesting and terrifying.
What happened Right?
So I appreciate the question.
It was like 2007, 2008,.
Right around the time Twitterfirst came out, and I will
assume, for the sake of thisdiscussion, that people know
what Twitter is.
If they don't, it's famouslycalled X right now.
Here's why it's relevant tothis conversation.
It was brand new at that time.
It was like the wild west.
(11:55):
Social media was not how it isright now, where everyone's
walking around with a smartphoneand cameras and followers and
all of that.
Social media existed, but itwas fringe, like Facebook was
established mostly for collegeage kids.
Myspace existed and it was, forthe most part, like an
established user base of emokids and musicians.
It wasn't like it looks rightnow, and here's why that's
(12:16):
relevant.
We are now living in an erawhere musicians, models, writers
, world leaders they have tensof millions of followers.
At that time, people had a fewthousand followers because it
was so new and because therewere so few people on the
platform.
It was huge if you had like10,000 or 20,000 followers, and
I remember John Mayer, I think,was the most followed guy on
Twitter for a while and he hadlike 15 or 20,000 followers at
(12:37):
the time, just to put that inperspective.
So I'm getting on Twitter at atime where it's very easy to
throw a tweet out there atsomebody and they'll see it and,
like, within like a day or two,they'll write back.
Unfortunately for me, because Iwas so unstable at the time, I
started to feel this inflatedsense of importance where, like
I remember, I tweeted at PaulWall, who's a famous Texas
rapper, and he tweeted back afew times.
(12:58):
I remember I tweeted at WyclefWilliam and other famous
musicians that you might knowout there and they wrote back.
Wyclef, he retweeted somethingI wrote to all of his followers
and I remember right around thattime I was like man, this is a
guy I grew up listening to and Ilove his music and now it feels
like I've made it, it feelslike I've arrived.
So the stuff that I'm doing now, whatever music I'm writing,
(13:20):
all of it, it all matters.
I'm elevated, I'm on this newlevel where people are just
paying attention to me.
Unfortunately, that wasaccompanied by paranoia that had
long been bubbling up and itwent from me being excited about
people kind of knowing who I amand paying attention to me
feeling like things were almostTruman Show-esque If you're not
familiar with the movie we'relike.
I thought there were cameraseverywhere.
People were watching me.
(13:41):
I couldn't get away from all ofit.
Very shortly thereafter therewas a very steep decline.
I remember waking up one dayand looking through random
Twitter feeds.
People were writing.
I thought that I had found acode, decoded it that identified
there was going to beassassination attempts on
President Obama, who was thepresident at that time, and the
(14:01):
Queen of Jordan, who was one ofthe first world leaders to kind
of hop on Twitter and understandits value.
The more and more I got into it, the more and more I was
convinced there was definitelygoing to be an assassination of
President Obama and the Queen ofJordan to destabilize the West
World War III.
All hell breaks loose and I didwhat any sane person would do I
Googled the FBI's phone numberand I called them to tell them
(14:21):
about it.
I told them everything wasgoing on the code that I
believed I had broken.
They asked if I'd be willing tomeet with them.
I did on several occasions meetwith them, a few times in a
blacked out suburban, in a bigbusiness parking lot, and also
at their FBI headquarters whereI live here in the city of San
Antonio.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
That's an interesting story.
Was you in full-blown psychosisat that time?
Ultimately, how did they handleit from that point?
Speaker 2 (14:47):
I was in full-blown psychosis at that time and after
several meetings with the FBI,they tried to tell me as much.
In fact, the last meeting thatI had with them the FBI agents
who I was meeting with theiroffices there in that San
Antonio headquarters they said,eric, are you diagnosed with any
mental health conditions?
They're being very delicate andrespectful about it and I was
like, well, yeah, why Are you onmedication for it?
(15:08):
And I was like, yeah, why?
But now I started to get madbecause I saw where this was
going.
They were like I could see theyweren't believing the things
that I was saying and they weretrying to tell me essentially,
you are a crazy person, you needmeds.
But they were trying to do itas delicately as possible.
All that really made me do washave to prove that much harder.
All of the stuff that I saidwas real.
So I want to be very clear inall of this.
(15:29):
Like I was full blown psychosisalready, I was not walking
around with even one toe.
In reality, I was full blownpsychotic at this point.
I remember leaving that FBIoffices for the last time and
understanding I needed to proveall of that was real and I had
stuff going through my head oflike well, maybe the FBI knows
about all of this, maybe they'rein cahoots with all of it and
(15:51):
they're just trying to tell methat I'm crazy, and maybe
they're really involved.
Maybe they're the ones who arethe reason that there's going to
be World War III and theassassinations.
So I started with the paranoiahitting hard and the psychosis
hitting hard, realizing thatmaybe I was on my own with this,
possibly having to just one managainst the world to stop World
(16:13):
War III and assassination plots.
So I remember at that same timemy mom and dad.
They contacted my then mostrecent psychiatrist who had
fired me for being too difficultto the patient to treat.
And I want to say I understandboth sides of that and I think
(16:34):
this is important for youraudience to hear.
I was very difficult to treat.
The meds were not helping.
Up to that point, the paranoiaand the psychosis were making it
where I was very rude toeveryone I was interacting with,
even if they were trying tohelp me.
So in session with my mom anddad, with the psychiatrist there
, he'd seen me rude to my momand dad.
He'd hear me being rude to him.
(16:55):
His staff didn't like the waythat I was talking with the
secretary.
I was very rude to her and shedidn't like that.
So, yeah, I get why he stoppedseeing me as a patient.
Didn't like it.
I do also want to say playingdevil's advocate here for a
minute or just talking otherside of things Psychiatrists,
(17:15):
much like people like, let's say, working in a jail or a prison,
should expect certain things.
And if you're going to work withpeople who don't have it all
together, particularly folkswith serious mental illness, you
should expect individuals whoare going to be rude and not
understanding or caring aboutwhat's going on around them.
So I don't want to give thepsychiatrist the pass that he
just fired me for beingdifficult to treat, because that
(17:36):
kind of comes with theterritory, but I do understand
him ultimately deciding that hedidn't want to treat me anymore.
But, to his credit, my parentscontacted him while all of this
was going on, because my parentsknew I told them about these
assassination plots.
They knew how out of it I was.
So they called thatpsychiatrist and they were like
begging and pleading with him.
They said look, we know our sonis not your patient anymore,
(17:58):
but you are the most recentprofessional to have ever
interacted with him.
What can we do to get our sonhelp?
Speaker 1 (18:05):
That was really good for him to have that discussion
with them on the situation thatyou were in.
What did he advise them?
Speaker 2 (18:14):
This is what he told my mom and dad.
He told my mom and dad that mybest bet to get treatment given
the fact that he didn't believeI would meet that very high bar
of involuntary care at that timebecause it's not illegal to be
crazy right he also understood Icould not be on my own.
He told my parents this I meanthis is earth-shattering cosmic
stuff that is fuel for all theadvocates out there and people
(18:35):
who want to make a change.
Also, families who have lovedones locked up right now, or if
you happen to be locked up inlistening.
This is what he told my parents.
He said your son's best bet isto get arrested for a nonviolent
, low-level offense and then,while he's in jail hopefully
before he gets released a judgecan find out about this and
hopefully have him transferred.
(18:55):
Before he's released from jail,hopefully he can be transferred
to a hospital involuntarilywhere he can be stabilized and
then hopefully, if he can bestabilized in a hospital, he can
be released to lower level care.
That's exactly what happened.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
Okay, well, that definitely makes sense.
Once you were in the hospital,how long did it take, with the
treatment they gave you, for youto get back to a path, to where
you are today?
Speaker 2 (19:20):
So, tony, you are asking the golden questions, man
.
It's no surprise to mewhatsoever that your show is as
popular as it is because youwere asking all the right
questions, man, it just is.
So yeah, put concisely, which,if you've been listening to me
talk up to this point, is not mybrand.
I do my best to be concise but,dude, there's just so much to
talk about, man.
So yeah, it was like this.
The first hospital stay, thefirst of three in total over as
(19:43):
many years about two and a halfthree years.
The first day was three monthsinpatient stabilization,
immediately followed bystep-down care after I was no
longer meeting criteria toremain inpatient.
I did a year of court-involvedoutpatient care assisted
outpatient treatment and I wastaking my meds as prescribed.
I had next goals already linedup that I was working towards
(20:04):
and I was taking my meds as Isay, to emphasize this exactly
as prescribed.
They stopped working, so I hadto be brought right back again
to the state hospital, anotherthree months where I'm
stabilized on a differentregimen of medications and I am
released again intocourt-involved outpatient care
assisted outpatient treatment.
After several months of medoing exactly what I'm supposed
to do, taking my meds asprescribed going to my hearing,
(20:25):
seeing my doctor, my socialworker, my treatment team, all
of that the meds stop workingagain after being out of the
hospital for just several weeks.
So I go back in for the thirdand final time of my
hospitalization and abouthalfway into that
hospitalization I am at thatpoint now being given above
maximum recommended dosages ofantipsychotics because they're
just trying to do anything tobring me back to reality and
(20:48):
that was what they tried.
So, after ruling out this issuch a golden part of the story
and like of the journey I wantpeople to know, after more than
10 years of chaos due to a bunchof failed antipsychotics, I
remember sitting across from thetable from my psychiatrist in
that hospital and she says I seeher looking at this paper and
she's crossing stuff off and itwas this long list of
antipsychotics that I had beentried over the years that all
(21:11):
just failed.
There was one thing on thatlist that did not have a line
through it that that doctor hadnot crossed out.
And she passes this paper to meacross the table and I'm still
full on psychotic, like I'm inthe middle of a hospital, and so
I'm sitting there and thisdoctor's like Eric.
We've tried everything, almosteverything.
There is one med we haven'ttried and we should try it and
I'm like, what is it Like?
I'm like I don't even have hopeany of this is going to work,
(21:32):
because I'm not ill, I don'tneed help.
It's the title of his book,title of his talk.
That's the life I was living atthat point, full on lack of
insight.
I didn't understand I was illdue to the nature of my illness.
The doctor says it's calledClozapine.
I said oh no, I've been giventhat a bunch of times.
And she goes no, not Clonazepam, Clozapine, I'm deal.
(22:00):
She says okay, if you go onthis, you will have to do blood
draws every morning.
If you stay on it, there's achance, like if things are going
well, we can start lowering thefrequency of those blood draws.
But for now, if you do this,you will have to do those blood
draws.
That was a huge sticking point,because I thought that by that
point I was so full on psychoticthat, like I thought that I was
, you know, some sort of beingthat was created truly by, like
divine beings, and that my bloodhad secrets in them that
(22:22):
mankind shouldn't have access toall kinds of stuff like divine
secrets it was.
It was bad and if you ever sawa photo of me at that point, my
hair was longer, I had a beard,I was a little thinner and
younger.
There were people whofrequently would meet me in
public and be like, oh, you looklike Jesus.
I started to think that maybethat was the case.
It was rough, so I didn't wantto give people access to my
blood.
I also thought by that point,since the Secret Service had
(22:44):
gotten involved and everyoneelse was involved, I felt safe
enough that if I did give myblood that either the divine
secrets would be protected or itwould go to like some top shelf
, top security lab where peoplewho could have access to it
would do it.
By the luck of the draw and bythe roll of the dice, I happen
to be in a weird enoughpsychotic state to agree to
(23:05):
Clozapine at that particularpoint.
So I was put on Clozapine.
I started at a very low dose.
I want to give a quick shoutout to Team Daniel Running for
Recovery, dr Rob Leitman and hiswife, dr Ann Mandel, and all of
the people in this group.
They have a stellar reputationfor managing Clozapine and
here's why I'm saying this is avalue.
It directly relates to what I'mabout to say 10 plus years of
failure on psych meds.
My parents losing more than adecade of their lives, me losing
(23:28):
more than a decade of my life.
Lost relationships, lost money,lost time, lost energy, lost
everything for more than adecade.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
In your mind and in your parents' mind.
You'd lost a decade.
Now you've changed yourmedication.
How did that affect you?
Speaker 2 (23:41):
I am put on Clozapine .
About two weeks into being puton Clozapine I woke up.
I'm in my hospital room, I lookaround and it's quiet.
And I don't mean the type ofquiet where I can't hear
anything.
I mean the type of quiet whereI didn't know I had that much
noise going on in my mind untilthe meds started to quiet stuff
(24:02):
down.
I looked around the roomEveryone's getting ready for
breakfast, like this guy youknow.
He's brushing his hair.
This guy's putting on somejeans and I'm like it's eerie
quiet.
I wonder what's going on.
And because I was still halfpsychotic I wasn't like a switch
of coming back to reality myfirst thought was oh, I must not
have any missions from the FBIor the CIA today, or I'd be
hearing about it, which is whatI thought.
The noise was up to that point.
(24:22):
I thought I had been hearingGeneral David Petraeus.
I thought I had been hearingLeon Panetta.
I thought I'd been hearing thebig names in my ears the whole
time about this.
And then I remember going tobreakfast 20 minutes later and
I'm looking around.
It's a different type of quiet.
I hear people you know normalbreakfast, cafeteria stuff,
cutting things, eating food,drinking stuff, putting down
their cup and I'm like, what isthis Like?
Well, what is this feeling oflike quiet in an absence of
(24:45):
noise and calm?
And later that week, into thefollowing week, the first, I
would say, major milestonetowards recovery and coming back
to sanity.
I remember walking around thehalls of that hospital, walking
around outside shooting somehoops because there's a they had
basketball outdoors and I'mlike Eric, you've never been to
Quantico, that's where the FBItrains.
You've never been to Langley,that's where the CIA trains.
(25:06):
You dropped out of high schoolyour junior year.
You don't have the skillsnecessary to break codes that
you think that you've broken.
What is this that you've beendoing?
In essence, I was able to startquestioning myself in a way
that everyone for 10 plus yearswas like Eric, you're out of it,
like you need treatment, youneed meds.
And it was such a powerfulexperience that I now walk away
(25:26):
trying to help as many people aspossible understand this med
that saved my life, that turnedthings around, the treatment
that I got.
International recommendationsare after two failed
antipsychotics Not failedbecause of untoward side effects
, but they didn't managesymptoms.
International guidelines slashrecommendations are Clozapine is
what you go to.
Good luck finding a majority oftreatment providers to hop onto
(25:48):
that bandwagon because there isred tape associated with it,
like the blood draws at thebeginning, which, to be very
clear here in the US, requiringthat blood work.
That is not something a lot ofthe rest of the developed world
does.
They just let doctors prescribeand if they want to order lab
work at some time, they do.
It is because of all of the redtape and the lab work and all
of that stuff that a lot ofdoctors are apprehensive.
They're kind of on the fenceabout wanting to prescribe it.
(26:10):
And here's this thing that gavemy life back in a way I never
once thought, never thoughtpossible.
I went back to school within oneyear of being discharged.
From the time I was anundergrad sophomore, all the way
through the end of grad school,where I earned my master's
degree, I had a flawless 4.0 GPA.
This from a guy who dropped outof high school, jail addict,
all of it, mental illness, andI'm not here trying to say close
the penis, what's going to dothat for everybody?
(26:31):
But I think it speaks veryloudly that the general
consensus internationally isafter two failed antipsychotics,
this is what people should have, and I want your listeners to
ask themselves a question howmuch of the 10 plus years of
chaos could have been avoided ifthat red tape wasn't there For
the people who are currently injail or have family members in
jail, incarcerated prison,currently in rehab, currently in
(26:52):
the midst of addiction?
I want people to ask themselveshow much of that could be
avoided if this drug thatinternationally is so highly
regarded could be moreaccessible, with less barriers
accessing here in the US.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
Absolutely Now.
You went from this stellarperson in high school to a
decade of lost time and findingyourself.
Ultimately, you did findyourself.
Now there's this bridge.
You've been on one side of itfor 10 years.
On the other side of the bridgeare people that will accept you
.
Unfortunately, we live in aworld of people that look into
(27:27):
your past of what you've done,rather than looking at what you
probably can do.
How did you work with thosepeople to ultimately get them to
accept you and to help get youto where you are today?
Speaker 2 (27:40):
Wow yeah, so it definitely was.
It was deliberate, it wasintentional.
I could have never known how itwould unfold like this, but I
was tired of running from mypast.
I was tired of it weighing medown and, quite frankly, I was
tired of looking for acceptancefrom other people.
I needed to be able to acceptmyself and myself me included,
(28:01):
the history of serious mentalillness and addiction and being
jailed and dropping out of highschool.
So I really think that thehappiness that I found finding
myself on the other side of thatbridge, it was just a true
understanding that if I wantedto continue working in corporate
America which is what I hadworked most recently prior to
things going really bad, thetype of journey that I've been
on it's not necessarily openlycelebrated there Like, if
anything, people want to find away to get rid of someone with a
(28:23):
history of serious mentalillness and addiction.
Put simply, I didn't want toexist in a world where I was not
going to be able to acceptmyself, and I live in a world
now where I accept myself and Ican accept others and help them
learn to accept themselves andthey can make their own informed
(28:44):
decisions about do they want topursue a life where they have
to run away from this forwhatever reasons, or do they
want to pursue a life where theycan be their authentic selves
and find happiness and meaningperfect.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
Now, where do people find you so they can check you
out on your consultation and theother things that you do?
Speaker 2 (28:54):
wwwericwtsmithcom.
That's E-R-I-C?
W, as in Winston T, as inTaylor Smith, s-m-i-t-hcom.
People can learn about some ofthe work that I've done.
They can learn aboutspecifically my consulting work.
They can email me directly andI love hearing from people all
around the world.
All around the world,throughout the US and around the
(29:16):
world, I love hearing fromfolks.
Maybe you've just got somequestions, some comments.
Maybe you're interested in myservices, and actually I do see
folks internationally.
I currently have clientsthroughout the United States,
including Hawaii and Alaska,canada, australia, south Africa,
jordan and the Republic ofNorth Macedonia.
If you are in any of thoseplaces or elsewhere, I am here
(29:37):
for you, please.
I look forward to hearing fromyou.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
That's awesome.
This has been a greatconversation, Great information.
Thanks for coming on.
Thank you, Tony.
I appreciate you inviting me tobe on.
It's been my pleasure.
Thanks again.
Thanks for taking the time outof your busy schedule to listen
(30:09):
to our show today.
We hope that you enjoyed it asmuch as we enjoyed bringing it
to you their information, so oneday they may be a guest on our
show.
One more thing we ask telleveryone everywhere about why
Not Me, the world, theconversations we're having and
(30:29):
the inspiration our guests giveto everyone everywhere that you
are not alone in this world.
Welcome to why Not Me ?
The World Podcast, hosted byTony Mantor, broadcasting from
Music City, usa, nashville,tennessee.
Join us as our guests tell ustheir stories.
Some will make you laugh, somewill make you cry.
Their stories Some will makeyou laugh, some will make you
(00:30):
cry.
Real life people who willinspire and show that you are
not alone in this world.
Hopefully, you gain moreawareness, acceptance and a
better understanding for autismAround the World.
Hi, I'm Tony Mantour.
(00:52):
Welcome to why Not Me?
The World Humanity OverHandcuffs the Silent Crisis
special event.
Joining us today is Eric Smith,a nationally recognized mental
health advocate, public speakerand consultant.
He is a commissioner with theTexas Judicial Commission on
Mental Health and is the founderof Eric WT Smith Consulting LLC
, where he provides invaluablesupport to families and
(01:16):
individuals affected by seriousmental illness.
With his wealth of knowledgeand experience, we're grateful
to have him here today.
Thanks for coming on, hey, tony.
How's it going Going?
Great thanks.
Can you give us a littlebackground on how your journey
with mental health started?
Speaker 2 (01:32):
So right around age three, a little kid living at
home with my mom and dad, theyhad an old school upright piano,
small home, small piano.
I have memories of this andthere's photos of it somewhere
here.
Music was such a driving forcein my life.
I remember getting ready for abath one night I had this melody
in my head from the sound ofmusic and it was, you know, it's
(01:54):
the famous Doe a deer femaledeer song, if anyone's familiar
with that.
And I had this in my head and Iremember the bath is being
drawn and I just run, run, runout to the piano and I'm there,
not playing some expert versionof it, but I'm sitting there.
I plan a key, a key a C, noflats, no sharps for the
musicians listening.
So it's one of the easier keysto play and I sit down and it's
like the notes Do a dear afemale and I'm doing it.
(02:16):
My parents are like you gottabe kidding me, like, like he's
transferring melody Melody tothe piano at such a young age.
And the picture to which I'mreferring that still exists is
me sitting with a.
I've still got my sweater onbut I've got like no bottoms on.
So I'm just sitting there atthe piano, just kind of like
going all out trying to play asa musician, and I think at that
point it became very apparent tomy parents that nurturing my
(02:38):
creative music side was a goodidea, because it was something I
was gravitating to in the firstplace.
So let's fast forward to likethird, fourth grade type stuff.
I am in what were advancedclasses.
For the time I was in advancedmath, advanced English I had a
lot of friends which will berelevant to a later part of the
story where I did not have a lotof friends, but for this time I
had a lot of friends and I wasstudying music.
(03:00):
It was a huge part of my lifeand it got to a point where at
the start of fifth grade, when Imoved to Texas, there was my
piano teacher who eventuallybecame, for the next several
years, my teacher.
I'm happy to share her name,anya Grykowski, who is a world
renowned classical pianist.
I started studying under herand within a very short period
of time I ended up starting tolearn pieces that were like
(03:23):
college entrance and collegeexit pieces.
But I was like in middle school.
At that point it truly becameclear that this was more than
just a hobby for me andsomething that I was excelling
in Fast forwarding to highschool.
My sophomore year was the lastfull year of high school because
I dropped out of high school.
My junior year and that'srelevant to note because right
(03:46):
around that same time I opted tostop playing music.
And this is after I had had thelocal CBS affiliate do a
primetime news story on me aboutmy musical achievements and the
accolades and whatnot.
It was after that I had thepleasure of performing on stage
with William Warfield, grammyAward winner from famously known
(04:06):
as singing Old man River fromShowboat, and everything looked
like it was a line where I'mgoing to succeed and be a
musician.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
You left high school, you stopped playing music.
What changed for you to do this?
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Serious mental illness and addiction threw a
huge wrench in it and I don'twant to get too lost in the
weeds of it, but I felt verycreative when I was seriously
mentally ill.
Very creative Part of it wasthe mania, part of it just
straight up the psychosis.
There were periods of time I'dstay awake for a day, a day and
a half, just recording music,writing music, tightening up the
lines, changing up the lyrics.
(04:38):
It was making my symptoms worse.
After I finally got sober in2006, and after I finally found
sanity some years later, I wasafraid to get back to playing
music, performing it, writing it, because it was so closely tied
to my addiction and seriousmental illness.
And I don't want to do aninjustice by saying music is bad
.
I'm saying for me, it scaredthe hell out of me that it was
(04:59):
so tied to my addiction and myserious mental illness that I
was afraid to have it be anelement in my life again.
And I've only recently, for thefirst time ever, performed
publicly again.
It was small.
I'm a member of the board ofdirectors for the Schizophrenia
and Psychosis Action Allianceand a good friend of mine and
colleague, Dr Rob Leitman youmay have heard his name before
he's there and he serves on theboard as well.
(05:20):
So he gently coaxed me intoplaying there for the board of
directors and the people whowere there for that meeting and
it was nice.
I turned around, everyone hadtheir cameras out, lots of
applause, and it was the firsttime I'd performed publicly
since before I fell ill withpsychosis and I know that was a
long answer to your question,but I'm trying to help you
understand how much music meantto me and also how much it
(05:42):
scared me due to how my lifeunfolded.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
Not a problem.
Music is a very powerfulinstrument.
It can bring back the best ofmemories.
It can bring back the worst ofmemories.
So I totally get that.
What happened that got you offtrack for everything that you
were doing at the time?
You mentioned psychosis.
With that said, what path didyour journey take you to next?
Speaker 2 (06:06):
For me, I was a straight edge kid, like I had
never been drunk or high of anykind prior to my sophomore year
of high school.
But because my grades startedto dip in middle school, there
were parent teacher conferencescalled and the teachers were
concerned that I went from beingin advanced classes to barely
passing and then eventuallyultimately failing, having to go
to summer school.
For a teacher, it's a teacher.
It's easy to look at a coupleof red flags to explore.
(06:27):
Is there fighting going on athome, which was not the case I
grew up in a very loving familyor is Eric using drugs or
alcohol, which up until thepoint I was a sophomore in high
school wasn't true.
So you just had teachers tryingto just figure out what in the
world is changing in Eric's life, my brain chemistry, like.
I'm no doctor, but I do knowwhat it's like to start falling
ill with serious mental illness.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
With all this happening, what did your parents
and teachers come up with?
Did they get any answers?
Speaker 2 (06:53):
My parents.
Just they rearranged theirentire schedules trying to take
me in to get help, take me intotutoring, seeing counselors,
psychologists, all of that.
And as part of that first majorstep in that journey, I did a
long standardized test thatwould be analyzed by a clinical
psychologist and the team tofind out are my answers for that
standardized exam consistentwith the answers of those
(07:14):
provided by people with aspecific diagnosis?
And, as it turns out, Iremember sitting in that room
when the results were beingdiscussed with my parents and I
was there.
The doctor said Mr and MrsSmith, your son Eric's answers
are consistent with individualswho were diagnosed with bipolar
disorder.
And they were like so you'resaying he's got bipolar disorder
?
Doctor was like his answers areconsistent with it and would
(07:36):
explain some of the high highshe's having and some of the low
lows he's been having.
The piece I'm about to say thisis actually what, for the first
time, really had me questioningthe validity or reliability of
psychiatry and counseling,because what he said next was
both wild and would later proveto be true.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
That's an interesting point of view for your age.
What did he have to say?
Speaker 2 (07:57):
He said Mr and Mrs Smith, don't be surprised if at
some point later, when your sonis in his 20s, if he also falls
ill with psychosis or some sortof psychotic spectrum disorder
like schizophrenia orschizoaffective disorder.
At that point I couldcollectively feel in the room
like my mom, my dad and me, notnecessarily in denial, but just
in disbelief.
Like what are you doing?
Like for sports fans out therewho remember, like Babe Ruth
(08:19):
famously, like pointing out tothe stands and then cracking one
out there, come on, like for adoctor to look at someone who's
in his young teens and say, hey,don't be surprised if you're
psychotic in your 20s.
That was a wild thing toconsider at that time.
That is exactly what happened,fast forwarding kind of through
my teens, where I drop out ofhigh school in my junior year I
get a general equivalency highschool degree and I try college.
I do okay my first semester.
(08:41):
I failed spectacularly out ofit in my second semester.
The years go by, the mentalillness gets worse, the
addiction gets worse.
As a point of relevance here, Idid get sober in 2006.
I did not get full-blownpsychosis until about three
years later.
It's worth saying, when you'reasking me this question you
asked me here a little ago, likewhat contributed to things
(09:02):
going off track, like what madeit happen.
Some of it was choice, right,like I chose to start using
drugs.
The addiction thereafter wasnot my choice, but I definitely
made a choice to start usingdrugs.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
You made that choice.
That happens.
The other part of this is yourdoctor brought up bipolar and
mental health illness in thefuture.
That wasn't your choice.
What happened next?
Speaker 2 (09:27):
The worse the illness got, and the worse the symptoms
got, the less control I hadover any of it.
I went through a period of morethan a decade's worth of trial
and error with antipsychotics,antidepressants, anti-anxiety
meds, ssris, like the wholegamut of everything, and things
kept getting worse.
So I finally got to thisdangerous point rooted on deeply
, deeply flawed logic but madesense to me at the time which
(09:49):
was this If I had any of thesediagnoses that all of these meds
are designed to treat, when Itook them as I did, things
should have started gettingbetter, but things kept getting
worse.
So I finally got to a pointwhere I was like, look, I don't
have those diagnoses because themeds that are designed to treat
those diagnoses did not and donot help me.
I was convinced I could justlive the rest of my life the way
(10:09):
that I did.
But at some point it got so bad.
The FBI got involved, the SecretService got involved.
Various embassies andconsulates from around the world
, unfortunately, were broughtinto the mess of things.
Before people are listening tothis story, they're like, oh my
God, Eric, did things ever getbetter?
Yeah, and I hope we can unpackthat and it included me being
pointed in as commissioner bythe two highest courts in Texas
(10:29):
our state Supreme Court and ourCourt of Criminal Appeals here
in Texas, where I live.
I'm so grateful to have hadopportunities to, year over year
, be invited to talk withStanford University law students
about my journey, talk withthem about policy and practice.
This is a university that Iwould never have ever had a
chance getting into.
Now I get to talk with studentswho are living their lives
(10:53):
hoping to change the futurethrough whatever line of work it
is they choose to do beinginvolved in major media, doing
this conversation like I'm doingwith you right now, tony, the
way my life ended up.
Right now, the rest of my lifewill be spent trying to help
other people who have desirableoutcomes, because, on paper,
dropping out of high school,failing out of college, getting
arrested for stuff related tomental health and mental illness
that generally doesn't bodewell for the trajectory of
(11:14):
things.
But I got lucky.
I got the treatment that Ineeded, I got the resources that
I needed, I had the supportthat I needed and for the rest
of my life I will be spending ittrying to help other people
also find that life.
It is that they want.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
That's a great thing to do.
Now you brought up the FBI andother agencies.
Can you expand on that and whatpart of the journey that was
for you?
Speaker 2 (11:35):
That's both interesting and terrifying.
What happened Right?
So I appreciate the question.
It was like 2007, 2008,.
Right around the time Twitterfirst came out, and I will
assume, for the sake of thisdiscussion, that people know
what Twitter is.
If they don't, it's famouslycalled X right now.
Here's why it's relevant tothis conversation.
It was brand new at that time.
It was like the wild west.
(11:55):
Social media was not how it isright now, where everyone's
walking around with a smartphoneand cameras and followers and
all of that.
Social media existed, but itwas fringe, like Facebook was
established mostly for collegeage kids.
Myspace existed and it was, forthe most part, like an
established user base of emokids and musicians.
It wasn't like it looks rightnow, and here's why that's
(12:16):
relevant.
We are now living in an erawhere musicians, models, writers
, world leaders they have tensof millions of followers.
At that time, people had a fewthousand followers because it
was so new and because therewere so few people on the
platform.
It was huge if you had like10,000 or 20,000 followers, and
I remember John Mayer, I think,was the most followed guy on
Twitter for a while and he hadlike 15 or 20,000 followers at
(12:37):
the time, just to put that inperspective.
So I'm getting on Twitter at atime where it's very easy to
throw a tweet out there atsomebody and they'll see it and,
like, within like a day or two,they'll write back.
Unfortunately for me, because Iwas so unstable at the time, I
started to feel this inflatedsense of importance where, like
I remember, I tweeted at PaulWall, who's a famous Texas
rapper, and he tweeted back afew times.
(12:58):
I remember I tweeted at WyclefWilliam and other famous
musicians that you might knowout there and they wrote back.
Wyclef, he retweeted somethingI wrote to all of his followers
and I remember right around thattime I was like man, this is a
guy I grew up listening to and Ilove his music and now it feels
like I've made it, it feelslike I've arrived.
So the stuff that I'm doing now, whatever music I'm writing,
(13:20):
all of it, it all matters.
I'm elevated, I'm on this newlevel where people are just
paying attention to me.
Unfortunately, that wasaccompanied by paranoia that had
long been bubbling up and itwent from me being excited about
people kind of knowing who I amand paying attention to me
feeling like things were almostTruman Show-esque If you're not
familiar with the movie we'relike.
I thought there were cameraseverywhere.
People were watching me.
(13:41):
I couldn't get away from all ofit.
Very shortly thereafter therewas a very steep decline.
I remember waking up one dayand looking through random
Twitter feeds.
People were writing.
I thought that I had found acode, decoded it that identified
there was going to beassassination attempts on
President Obama, who was thepresident at that time, and the
(14:01):
Queen of Jordan, who was one ofthe first world leaders to kind
of hop on Twitter and understandits value.
The more and more I got into it, the more and more I was
convinced there was definitelygoing to be an assassination of
President Obama and the Queen ofJordan to destabilize the West
World War III.
All hell breaks loose and I didwhat any sane person would do I
Googled the FBI's phone numberand I called them to tell them
(14:21):
about it.
I told them everything wasgoing on the code that I
believed I had broken.
They asked if I'd be willing tomeet with them.
I did on several occasions meetwith them, a few times in a
blacked out suburban, in a bigbusiness parking lot, and also
at their FBI headquarters whereI live here in the city of San
Antonio.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
That's an interesting story.
Was you in full-blown psychosisat that time?
Ultimately, how did they handleit from that point?
Speaker 2 (14:47):
I was in full-blown psychosis at that time and after
several meetings with the FBI,they tried to tell me as much.
In fact, the last meeting thatI had with them the FBI agents
who I was meeting with theiroffices there in that San
Antonio headquarters they said,eric, are you diagnosed with any
mental health conditions?
They're being very delicate andrespectful about it and I was
like, well, yeah, why Are you onmedication for it?
(15:08):
And I was like, yeah, why?
But now I started to get madbecause I saw where this was
going.
They were like I could see theyweren't believing the things
that I was saying and they weretrying to tell me essentially,
you are a crazy person, you needmeds.
But they were trying to do itas delicately as possible.
All that really made me do washave to prove that much harder.
All of the stuff that I saidwas real.
So I want to be very clear inall of this.
(15:29):
Like I was full blown psychosisalready, I was not walking
around with even one toe.
In reality, I was full blownpsychotic at this point.
I remember leaving that FBIoffices for the last time and
understanding I needed to proveall of that was real and I had
stuff going through my head oflike well, maybe the FBI knows
about all of this, maybe they'rein cahoots with all of it and
(15:51):
they're just trying to tell methat I'm crazy, and maybe
they're really involved.
Maybe they're the ones who arethe reason that there's going to
be World War III and theassassinations.
So I started with the paranoiahitting hard and the psychosis
hitting hard, realizing thatmaybe I was on my own with this,
possibly having to just one managainst the world to stop World
(16:13):
War III and assassination plots.
So I remember at that same timemy mom and dad.
They contacted my then mostrecent psychiatrist who had
fired me for being too difficultto the patient to treat.
And I want to say I understandboth sides of that and I think
(16:34):
this is important for youraudience to hear.
I was very difficult to treat.
The meds were not helping.
Up to that point, the paranoiaand the psychosis were making it
where I was very rude toeveryone I was interacting with,
even if they were trying tohelp me.
So in session with my mom anddad, with the psychiatrist there
, he'd seen me rude to my momand dad.
He'd hear me being rude to him.
(16:55):
His staff didn't like the waythat I was talking with the
secretary.
I was very rude to her and shedidn't like that.
So, yeah, I get why he stoppedseeing me as a patient.
Didn't like it.
I do also want to say playingdevil's advocate here for a
minute or just talking otherside of things Psychiatrists,
(17:15):
much like people like, let's say, working in a jail or a prison,
should expect certain things.
And if you're going to work withpeople who don't have it all
together, particularly folkswith serious mental illness, you
should expect individuals whoare going to be rude and not
understanding or caring aboutwhat's going on around them.
So I don't want to give thepsychiatrist the pass that he
just fired me for beingdifficult to treat, because that
(17:36):
kind of comes with theterritory, but I do understand
him ultimately deciding that hedidn't want to treat me anymore.
But, to his credit, my parentscontacted him while all of this
was going on, because my parentsknew I told them about these
assassination plots.
They knew how out of it I was.
So they called thatpsychiatrist and they were like
begging and pleading with him.
They said look, we know our sonis not your patient anymore,
(17:58):
but you are the most recentprofessional to have ever
interacted with him.
What can we do to get our sonhelp?
Speaker 1 (18:05):
That was really good for him to have that discussion
with them on the situation thatyou were in.
What did he advise them?
Speaker 2 (18:14):
This is what he told my mom and dad.
He told my mom and dad that mybest bet to get treatment given
the fact that he didn't believeI would meet that very high bar
of involuntary care at that timebecause it's not illegal to be
crazy right he also understood Icould not be on my own.
He told my parents this I meanthis is earth-shattering cosmic
stuff that is fuel for all theadvocates out there and people
(18:35):
who want to make a change.
Also, families who have lovedones locked up right now, or if
you happen to be locked up inlistening.
This is what he told my parents.
He said your son's best bet isto get arrested for a nonviolent
, low-level offense and then,while he's in jail hopefully
before he gets released a judgecan find out about this and
hopefully have him transferred.
(18:55):
Before he's released from jail,hopefully he can be transferred
to a hospital involuntarilywhere he can be stabilized and
then hopefully, if he can bestabilized in a hospital, he can
be released to lower level care.
That's exactly what happened.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
Okay, well, that definitely makes sense.
Once you were in the hospital,how long did it take, with the
treatment they gave you, for youto get back to a path, to where
you are today?
Speaker 2 (19:20):
So, tony, you are asking the golden questions, man
.
It's no surprise to mewhatsoever that your show is as
popular as it is because youwere asking all the right
questions, man, it just is.
So yeah, put concisely, which,if you've been listening to me
talk up to this point, is not mybrand.
I do my best to be concise but,dude, there's just so much to
talk about, man.
So yeah, it was like this.
The first hospital stay, thefirst of three in total over as
(19:43):
many years about two and a halfthree years.
The first day was three monthsinpatient stabilization,
immediately followed bystep-down care after I was no
longer meeting criteria toremain inpatient.
I did a year of court-involvedoutpatient care assisted
outpatient treatment and I wastaking my meds as prescribed.
I had next goals already linedup that I was working towards
(20:04):
and I was taking my meds as Isay, to emphasize this exactly
as prescribed.
They stopped working, so I hadto be brought right back again
to the state hospital, anotherthree months where I'm
stabilized on a differentregimen of medications and I am
released again intocourt-involved outpatient care
assisted outpatient treatment.
After several months of medoing exactly what I'm supposed
to do, taking my meds asprescribed going to my hearing,
(20:25):
seeing my doctor, my socialworker, my treatment team, all
of that the meds stop workingagain after being out of the
hospital for just several weeks.
So I go back in for the thirdand final time of my
hospitalization and abouthalfway into that
hospitalization I am at thatpoint now being given above
maximum recommended dosages ofantipsychotics because they're
just trying to do anything tobring me back to reality and
(20:48):
that was what they tried.
So, after ruling out this issuch a golden part of the story
and like of the journey I wantpeople to know, after more than
10 years of chaos due to a bunchof failed antipsychotics, I
remember sitting across from thetable from my psychiatrist in
that hospital and she says I seeher looking at this paper and
she's crossing stuff off and itwas this long list of
antipsychotics that I had beentried over the years that all
(21:11):
just failed.
There was one thing on thatlist that did not have a line
through it that that doctor hadnot crossed out.
And she passes this paper to meacross the table and I'm still
full on psychotic, like I'm inthe middle of a hospital, and so
I'm sitting there and thisdoctor's like Eric.
We've tried everything, almosteverything.
There is one med we haven'ttried and we should try it and
I'm like, what is it Like?
I'm like I don't even have hopeany of this is going to work,
(21:32):
because I'm not ill, I don'tneed help.
It's the title of his book,title of his talk.
That's the life I was living atthat point, full on lack of
insight.
I didn't understand I was illdue to the nature of my illness.
The doctor says it's calledClozapine.
I said oh no, I've been giventhat a bunch of times.
And she goes no, not Clonazepam, Clozapine, I'm deal.
(22:00):
She says okay, if you go onthis, you will have to do blood
draws every morning.
If you stay on it, there's achance, like if things are going
well, we can start lowering thefrequency of those blood draws.
But for now, if you do this,you will have to do those blood
draws.
That was a huge sticking point,because I thought that by that
point I was so full on psychoticthat, like I thought that I was
, you know, some sort of beingthat was created truly by, like
divine beings, and that my bloodhad secrets in them that
(22:22):
mankind shouldn't have access toall kinds of stuff like divine
secrets it was.
It was bad and if you ever sawa photo of me at that point, my
hair was longer, I had a beard,I was a little thinner and
younger.
There were people whofrequently would meet me in
public and be like, oh, you looklike Jesus.
I started to think that maybethat was the case.
It was rough, so I didn't wantto give people access to my
blood.
I also thought by that point,since the Secret Service had
(22:44):
gotten involved and everyoneelse was involved, I felt safe
enough that if I did give myblood that either the divine
secrets would be protected or itwould go to like some top shelf
, top security lab where peoplewho could have access to it
would do it.
By the luck of the draw and bythe roll of the dice, I happen
to be in a weird enoughpsychotic state to agree to
(23:05):
Clozapine at that particularpoint.
So I was put on Clozapine.
I started at a very low dose.
I want to give a quick shoutout to Team Daniel Running for
Recovery, dr Rob Leitman and hiswife, dr Ann Mandel, and all of
the people in this group.
They have a stellar reputationfor managing Clozapine and
here's why I'm saying this is avalue.
It directly relates to what I'mabout to say 10 plus years of
failure on psych meds.
My parents losing more than adecade of their lives, me losing
(23:28):
more than a decade of my life.
Lost relationships, lost money,lost time, lost energy, lost
everything for more than adecade.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
In your mind and in your parents' mind.
You'd lost a decade.
Now you've changed yourmedication.
How did that affect you?
Speaker 2 (23:41):
I am put on Clozapine .
About two weeks into being puton Clozapine I woke up.
I'm in my hospital room, I lookaround and it's quiet.
And I don't mean the type ofquiet where I can't hear
anything.
I mean the type of quiet whereI didn't know I had that much
noise going on in my mind untilthe meds started to quiet stuff
(24:02):
down.
I looked around the roomEveryone's getting ready for
breakfast, like this guy youknow.
He's brushing his hair.
This guy's putting on somejeans and I'm like it's eerie
quiet.
I wonder what's going on.
And because I was still halfpsychotic I wasn't like a switch
of coming back to reality myfirst thought was oh, I must not
have any missions from the FBIor the CIA today, or I'd be
hearing about it, which is whatI thought.
The noise was up to that point.
(24:22):
I thought I had been hearingGeneral David Petraeus.
I thought I had been hearingLeon Panetta.
I thought I'd been hearing thebig names in my ears the whole
time about this.
And then I remember going tobreakfast 20 minutes later and
I'm looking around.
It's a different type of quiet.
I hear people you know normalbreakfast, cafeteria stuff,
cutting things, eating food,drinking stuff, putting down
their cup and I'm like, what isthis Like?
Well, what is this feeling oflike quiet in an absence of
(24:45):
noise and calm?
And later that week, into thefollowing week, the first, I
would say, major milestonetowards recovery and coming back
to sanity.
I remember walking around thehalls of that hospital, walking
around outside shooting somehoops because there's a they had
basketball outdoors and I'mlike Eric, you've never been to
Quantico, that's where the FBItrains.
You've never been to Langley,that's where the CIA trains.
(25:06):
You dropped out of high schoolyour junior year.
You don't have the skillsnecessary to break codes that
you think that you've broken.
What is this that you've beendoing?
In essence, I was able to startquestioning myself in a way
that everyone for 10 plus yearswas like Eric, you're out of it,
like you need treatment, youneed meds.
And it was such a powerfulexperience that I now walk away
(25:26):
trying to help as many people aspossible understand this med
that saved my life, that turnedthings around, the treatment
that I got.
International recommendationsare after two failed
antipsychotics Not failedbecause of untoward side effects
, but they didn't managesymptoms.
International guidelines slashrecommendations are Clozapine is
what you go to.
Good luck finding a majority oftreatment providers to hop onto
(25:48):
that bandwagon because there isred tape associated with it,
like the blood draws at thebeginning, which, to be very
clear here in the US, requiringthat blood work.
That is not something a lot ofthe rest of the developed world
does.
They just let doctors prescribeand if they want to order lab
work at some time, they do.
It is because of all of the redtape and the lab work and all
of that stuff that a lot ofdoctors are apprehensive.
They're kind of on the fenceabout wanting to prescribe it.
(26:10):
And here's this thing that gavemy life back in a way I never
once thought, never thoughtpossible.
I went back to school within oneyear of being discharged.
From the time I was anundergrad sophomore, all the way
through the end of grad school,where I earned my master's
degree, I had a flawless 4.0 GPA.
This from a guy who dropped outof high school, jail addict,
all of it, mental illness, andI'm not here trying to say close
the penis, what's going to dothat for everybody?
(26:31):
But I think it speaks veryloudly that the general
consensus internationally isafter two failed antipsychotics,
this is what people should have, and I want your listeners to
ask themselves a question howmuch of the 10 plus years of
chaos could have been avoided ifthat red tape wasn't there For
the people who are currently injail or have family members in
jail, incarcerated prison,currently in rehab, currently in
(26:52):
the midst of addiction?
I want people to ask themselveshow much of that could be
avoided if this drug thatinternationally is so highly
regarded could be moreaccessible, with less barriers
accessing here in the US.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
Absolutely Now.
You went from this stellarperson in high school to a
decade of lost time and findingyourself.
Ultimately, you did findyourself.
Now there's this bridge.
You've been on one side of itfor 10 years.
On the other side of the bridgeare people that will accept you
.
Unfortunately, we live in aworld of people that look into
(27:27):
your past of what you've done,rather than looking at what you
probably can do.
How did you work with thosepeople to ultimately get them to
accept you and to help get youto where you are today?
Speaker 2 (27:40):
Wow yeah, so it definitely was.
It was deliberate, it wasintentional.
I could have never known how itwould unfold like this, but I
was tired of running from mypast.
I was tired of it weighing medown and, quite frankly, I was
tired of looking for acceptancefrom other people.
I needed to be able to acceptmyself and myself me included,
(28:01):
the history of serious mentalillness and addiction and being
jailed and dropping out of highschool.
So I really think that thehappiness that I found finding
myself on the other side of thatbridge, it was just a true
understanding that if I wantedto continue working in corporate
America which is what I hadworked most recently prior to
things going really bad, thetype of journey that I've been
on it's not necessarily openlycelebrated there Like, if
anything, people want to find away to get rid of someone with a
(28:23):
history of serious mentalillness and addiction.
Put simply, I didn't want toexist in a world where I was not
going to be able to acceptmyself, and I live in a world
now where I accept myself and Ican accept others and help them
learn to accept themselves andthey can make their own informed
(28:44):
decisions about do they want topursue a life where they have
to run away from this forwhatever reasons, or do they
want to pursue a life where theycan be their authentic selves
and find happiness and meaningperfect.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
Now, where do people find you so they can check you
out on your consultation and theother things that you do?
Speaker 2 (28:54):
wwwericwtsmithcom.
That's E-R-I-C?
W, as in Winston T, as inTaylor Smith, s-m-i-t-hcom.
People can learn about some ofthe work that I've done.
They can learn aboutspecifically my consulting work.
They can email me directly andI love hearing from people all
around the world.
All around the world,throughout the US and around the
(29:16):
world, I love hearing fromfolks.
Maybe you've just got somequestions, some comments.
Maybe you're interested in myservices, and actually I do see
folks internationally.
I currently have clientsthroughout the United States,
including Hawaii and Alaska,canada, australia, south Africa,
jordan and the Republic ofNorth Macedonia.
If you are in any of thoseplaces or elsewhere, I am here
(29:37):
for you, please.
I look forward to hearing fromyou.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
That's awesome.
This has been a greatconversation, Great information.
Thanks for coming on.
Thank you, Tony.
I appreciate you inviting me tobe on.
It's been my pleasure.
Thanks again.
Thanks for taking the time outof your busy schedule to listen
(30:09):
to our show today.
We hope that you enjoyed it asmuch as we enjoyed bringing it
to you their information, so oneday they may be a guest on our
show.
One more thing we ask telleveryone everywhere about why
Not Me, the world, theconversations we're having and
(30:29):
the inspiration our guests giveto everyone everywhere that you
are not alone in this world.
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