April 30, 2025 • 26 mins
Psychotherapist Haley Graham shares her journey from pharmacist to mental health advocate after her son's struggle with school led her to found the Bounce Brighter Futures Foundation.
Her personal experience with neurodivergence drives her passion for supporting children, parents, and teachers through therapeutic storytelling and compassionate understanding.
• Founded Bounce Brighter Futures Foundation in 2019, now supporting 90 families weekly with 12 therapists
• Approximately 50% of children seeking support are neurodivergent (autistic or ADHD)
• School attendance difficulties often stem from not belonging in the system rather than just peer bullying
• Cautions against therapists inadvertently teaching autistic children to mask better
• Uses storytelling with woodland animals to help children explore mental health challenges
• Created "Shadow Monster" story as metaphor for facing anxiety and OCD
• Developing new book based on interviews with late-identified autistic adults
• Believes autism itself isn't the problem—fitting into society creates mental health challenges
• Emphasizes curiosity about children's experiences rather than trying to fix them
• Advocates for thoughtfulness and empathy when supporting neurodivergent individuals
Find Haley Graham on LinkedIn, Instagram (hayleygrahauthor), and at Bounce Brighter Futures website.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to why Not Me , the World?
Podcast, hosted by Tony Mantor,broadcasting from Music City,
usa, nashville, tennessee.
Join us as our guests tell ustheir stories.
Some will make you laugh, somewill make you cry.
Their stories Some will makeyou laugh, some will make you
(00:28):
cry.
Real life people who willinspire and show that you are
not alone in this world.
Hopefully, you gain moreawareness, acceptance and a
better understanding for autismaround the world.
Hi, I'm Tony Mantor.
(00:53):
Welcome to why Not Me?
The World.
Today we have Haley Graham, apsychotherapist, author and
charity founder of BounceBrighter Futures Foundation.
She is passionate about thetransformative power of stories
and fostering meaningfulconnections.
Today she shares her journeywith mental health therapy,
autism and her lived experiences.
(01:14):
Thanks for coming on.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Ah, it's my pleasure.
Yeah, I feel really honored.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
If you would tell us a little bit about what you do.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
I'm a therapist, so I trained first as an adult
psychotherapist and then I wenton to train as a child
psychotherapist.
In 2019, january 2019, Ifounded a mental health charity
for children here in Devon.
Also, I write, I post stuff onLinkedIn about autism and
(01:45):
consider myself sort of to someextent, on a very sort of low
level, to be sort of an advocatefor autistic people.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
Now you have a charity.
Can you expand and explain tous a little more about your
charity?
Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah, a littlemore about your charity?
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So I mean, it started off in2019, basically with me
providing pro bono work two daysa week to local schools.
And now today we're sort of ateam of 20 people.
We've got 12 therapists workingand providing support to 90
families a week and providingsupport to 90 families a week,
(02:27):
so that's sort of one-to-onespecialists, psychotherapeutic
support for children, youngpeople and their parents.
You know, we also provide somesupport to sort of teachers in
schools and that sort of thingas well.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
Where you work with the school systems.
What are some of the challengesyou find yourself facing?
Speaker 2 (02:44):
In running the charity, the biggest challenge
100% is money, it's funding.
It's such a hand-to-mouthexistence.
You know you're in a positionwhere you've only got three
months' money and you're sort ofbuilding sandcastles in the air
.
So you know it's because you'resort of trying to sort of plan
(03:06):
and grow and think about thefuture and at the same time you
know if the money doesn't comethrough you're going to have to
fold and that's what it's like.
I mean, it's such ahand-to-mouth existence and it's
not getting any easier.
You know getting harder to getmoney.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
Yeah, I understand that.
It's tough all around.
Now, do you deal with moreautistic people or mental health
?
Speaker 2 (03:29):
So the our sort of clients, if you like, our
service users.
I mean, we provide mentalhealth support and we were
having a conversation the otherday as a sort of a small you
know just small group of us inthe team and I would say
probably 50% of the children andyoung people that come through
(03:50):
our door either have a diagnosisof autism or are on the pathway
or, you know, have a diagnosisof ADHD.
So it's a very, very highproportion of the children,
young people that we work withare neurodivergent.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
Yeah, okay Now, with all the people that you do work
with, what are some of theissues that you have to work
with and how complex does it getfor you?
Speaker 2 (04:20):
Gosh.
Yeah, it's a big question.
I mean it's very wide ranging.
I would say, and I think it'sprobably reflected everywhere,
that the complexity of whatwe're seeing is increasing.
So you know, we don't get a lotof kids now just presenting
with sort of maybe a littleanxiety, with sort of maybe a
(04:43):
little anxiety.
You know there's a lot oftrauma there.
So we're seeing a lot ofcomplex problems within.
You know, the kids that aresort of neurodivergent
presenting often withdifficulties with school
attendance.
So we're getting a lot of thatas well at the moment, a lot of
(05:05):
kids who are just reallystruggling with school.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
Do you find that you often deal with kids that may
have bullying as an issuebecause they don't have their
social skills the way they mightneed to be to avoid that?
Speaker 2 (05:28):
Yeah, I mean, you know, I suppose it's across the
board.
I think bullying definitely ispart of the picture, often
online, I would say and I guesspeople might disagree with me,
but I would say that bullying isprobably secondary.
I would say that kids feel likethey don't necessarily belong,
(05:52):
but I think that they reallystruggle with the system and I
think it's more about the wholeschool environment than simply
being bullied by other kids.
I mean, that's sort of that'smy feeling.
I think it's a whole systemthing and a sense of not
(06:13):
belonging in that system and notbeing able to find a place
within it, particularly, youknow, spaces where they can feel
safe.
I suppose you know they're veryintense environments.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
Yes, it can get very difficult for the kids,
unfortunately, when you dealwith the teachers.
What do you find that you'readdressing in that capacity?
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Well, I mean, I suppose at the moment, mainly
what we're doing is we'reproviding support for teachers,
because it's a difficult job forthem.
You know, they're now having todeal with a lot of children who
are struggling.
They're sort of trying toprovide mental health support
when actually what they want tobe doing is they want to be
(06:59):
teaching, they want to beeducating, and you know they're
seeing a lot of stuff, they'rehearing a lot of stuff, so they
need support and actually whatwe're often doing is we're often
supporting them to think aboutchildren and to think about what
the needs of that child mightbe, but also to support them so
(07:20):
they can go back to class andsupport that child, because it's
a difficult job, you know, Imean, you've got 30 kids in a
class and you've got, you know,five, six kids in that class who
are struggling in some way oranother.
It's a difficult job.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
Yes, it is absolutely a very difficult job.
When you start working with achild or children, you see they
are having some struggles.
What are some of the thingsthat you do to give them a
pathway for a better mindset andto a better future?
Speaker 2 (07:57):
Yeah, okay, I think that's really tricky.
I think that it's again.
We have these conversations, wetalk about these things.
I think it depends on themotivation of the child or the
young person and I think if theyreally want to be in school,
then you can help them.
You can give them strategies ifthey're highly motivated, you
(08:21):
know to help them sort of managetheir anxiety, for example.
You know we can do that.
We can sort of go throughrelaxation techniques, we can go
through grounding techniques.
We can help them think aboutsituations that arise and how
they might frame thosesituations and think about them
(08:41):
in different ways.
But I think it really depends onthe motivation of the child and
I think that you know we alsoneed to be careful and I suppose
the conversation that we werehaving the other day is
something around.
As therapists, you know we haveto be really careful that what
we're not doing is we're notjust saying to kids that are
(09:02):
autistic or ADHD, you know thisis how to mask better, or, if we
are, we need to be really clear.
That's what we're saying.
We're saying to them if this iswhat you want to do, you know
you can try this, but we need tobe really careful that we're
not suggesting that their way ofbeing in the world is wrong.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
Right, I agree.
The biggest issue I see is whenan autistic person decides that
they want to mask it.
They can only do that for solong before it will start to
affect them mentally and createsome issues for them to cope
with it.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
Absolutely, yeah, 100%, yeah.
And you know that masking andwe hear this so often, you know
we hear of kids that sort ofmanaging in school and actually
when we talk to the schools,they say, no, we're not having a
problem here, and the kids aregoing home at the end of the day
and they're just going intocomplete meltdown.
And you know they because it'sbeen so difficult all day that
(10:07):
they've been masking and so Ithink, yeah, absolutely, you
know, if they're doing that andthen they're getting burned out
and their mental health issuffering, we do need to be
careful and I think it'ssomething we need to think about
as therapists, really, and howwe manage that.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Yes, that's true.
Now you reach out to a lot ofareas with posts and blogs.
I understand you have amagazine.
I think it's called BounceBrighter Future.
Is that correct?
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Oh, yeah, that's our Bounce magazine.
Have you come across that?
Yeah, brilliant, yeah, yeah,yeah, that's our inaugural
magazine.
Yeah, the Bounce magazine.
So yeah, bounce Brighter Futureis a charity.
Yeah, the Bounce magazine.
So yeah, bounce BrighterFutures is a charity.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
Yeah, that's great.
Now, is that still an ongoingthing that you do along with
your social media?
I know you have a very goodimpression out there with your
social media, along with yourmagazine.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
I would say in terms of my LinkedIn, if you like.
My social media presence isvery much for me about sharing
lived experience and hoping thatthat might help people.
By hearing about my experiencesthey might feel less alone,
more understood.
So I think very much my socialmedia presence, largely speaking
(11:28):
, for me is about that.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
That's great.
I think anything you can do tohelp people like that is a good
thing.
Now, what led you down thispath to do what you're doing now
?
Speaker 2 (11:40):
So I started out my career as a pharmacist, so I
graduated from university as apharmacist.
It was back.
I guess in would have beenabout 2005, something like that.
I have two sons, and myyoungest at that time would have
been seven and he was reallystruggling.
He was really struggling withschool.
(12:01):
We could not get him to go.
He was very unhappy.
You know, he would be hangingonto the doorframes in the
morning and we would be sort ofunpeeling his fingers from the
doorframes and carrying him, youknow, to the car, putting him
in the car and then sort oftaking him to school and trying
to get him out the other side.
I mean, it was, it was, it wasa nightmare.
(12:22):
It was a nightmare and we hadabsolutely no idea what was
going on.
You know, I looked, I lookedfor help, I tried to get help.
I sort of went to the GP andyou know, see if I could sort of
get a referral to CAMHS, whichis, you know, the statutory
service over here, camhs, andyou know they were interested,
(12:44):
to be perfectly honest, and youknow, I was looking for private
help and I couldn't.
I just couldn't find any helpand we couldn't make any sense
of it.
Ultimately we decided towithdraw him from school because
I could see I mean anybodycould have seen it I mean my son
became very anxious, verywithdrawn, quite low, I would
(13:06):
say, and we took him out ofschool.
There was just no, nothing elseto do.
I mean there was no otheranswer.
And I gave up work to homeeducate him.
And it was at that point,really, I thought, okay, I just
need to try and make sense ofthis.
So I started doing a relativelylocal psychotherapy training,
(13:29):
but that was an adult trainingand that was over a period of
four years.
And then I did that and at theend of it then I decided to go
on and do a child training, andthat was driven entirely by my
need, my desire to sort of makesense of things and also to help
ourselves as a family.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
When you was going through all this?
How did you approach it?
Did you take any steps withdoctors?
Did you find out that you wasautistic?
What were your findings on this?
Speaker 2 (13:57):
So I mean, we just sort of carried on the best we
could.
My son then, as an adult he'snow 27, decided that he would
put himself forward for an ADHDdiagnosis, which he has now.
I think he would self-identifyas autistic too, and I think
that was, you know, that's beenthe change for us really.
(14:20):
I guess.
And particularly you know, thechange for me is looking back at
all those years and all my lifereally for myself personally
and how much sense that has madeour life together as a family,
and I guess is the reason why Iput these things out there,
because I know how muchdifference that made to me to
(14:41):
have that understanding and hasmade to us as a family to have
that understanding.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
That totally makes so much sense and I'm glad that it
actually did help your family.
After that, did you findyourself going back to school?
Back to college.
What were the next steps ofyour journey?
Speaker 2 (15:00):
Yeah.
So I did my first training, asI said, quite locally and then I
did another four-year training,sort of going up and down to
London and did a childpsychotherapy training.
In that I suppose I had adesire to do something to help.
I think when I hadn't been ableto get any help when my son was
young, I'd sort of made thatdecision then that one day I
(15:22):
wanted to try and set up acharity that would provide
support for those parents thatwere struggling to find help.
And even though there's moreunderstanding out there now,
help is still very hard to comeby because thresholds for
statutory services are very highand, you know, private therapy
is very expensive.
So there's a huge number ofpeople that just don't know
(15:44):
where to go.
Their children are strugglingand they don't know where to go
for help.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Yes, that is a huge thing that I hear from so many
different people.
When they find their child isautistic, ADHD or whatever the
case may be, there's a hugeblack cloud hovering around them
because they just don't knowwhat to do.
So in your travels, have youseen where you've been able to
(16:09):
be that bridge between the knownand the unknown for these
people, where you have lived itso you're able to help them
navigate through some thingsthat give them a better
understanding, so that way theycan move forward with more
knowledge of what they'redealing with?
Speaker 2 (16:27):
I hope so.
Yeah, I mean I feel that wewere making up as we went along
for so long and I suppose in myexperience the things that work
for autistic kids works for alot of kids.
So you know it's.
I think that we have to, Iguess, help parents be more
(16:48):
confident.
I think that parents areworried they're not doing the
right thing and I think it'sreally important we help them to
feel that they have the skills,the tools to feel confident to
help their children.
And yeah, I mean, I thinkcertainly as a therapist, in
sort of my own private practice,I'm able to sort of help
(17:11):
parents think about autism andalso think about ways of helping
their children.
But there's nothing.
What's the word?
There's nothing complex aboutit.
Maybe that's not quite theright word, you know it's not
rocket science.
Then what I'm suggesting?
It's still things like justbeing curious, you know, being
(17:33):
curious about their experience,what's going on for them.
I think that sort of curiosityis so important because I think
for me personally and I think Ican say, you know, for my family
, what I see in the people thatI work with, whether they're
adults or kids, you know, isthis sort of negation of
(17:53):
experience, we're told it can'tbe that way, it can't be like
that.
So actually for somebody to becurious about your experience
and be open and accepting andempathic about that experience,
you know it can be absolutelylife changing.
That then helps to support themental health, the mental health
(18:15):
difficulties that arise as aresult of autism.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
That's a great help.
That's a great way to look atit.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
From where I stand, you know, autism in itself is
not a problem.
It's fitting into society thatmakes it a problem, and mental
health problems result from that.
So actually we're helping thesechildren with their mental
health.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
Absolutely.
I could not agree more.
Now I understand that you'vewritten a book or two.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
Well, I've written one, I've written two, but the
second one hasn't been publishedyet.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
Can you give us a little information about the
book?
Speaker 2 (18:51):
The first one is about mental health.
So it uses stories aboutwoodland animals to explore
trauma, anxiety, ocd, loss,shame, attachment.
The idea is that it helpseducate but helps sort of
improve understanding and Ithink through understanding then
(19:12):
we find compassion and empathy.
Also, to help big people,adults have conversations with
children and young peoplebecause that's so important.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
being able to talk about our mental health is so
important yes, the ability totalk about anything like that is
very, very important.
Now tell me about your book.
I believe you said that it's astory driven book.
What's one of the favoritestories that you seem to get the
most feedback on?
Speaker 2 (19:41):
One of the sort of favorite stories, it seems, is
one called Shadow Monster, andthe analogy there is they don't
have names, they're just thenames of the animals.
So there's a mouse and a badger.
The mouse has a monster in thecellar and the monster is
(20:01):
obviously a metaphor for anxiety.
I mean, it's really exploringOCD.
Actually, you know it's morethan anxiety, but I know that
sort of people working with kidshave used it to explore anxiety
and I've done some sort ofgreat work with it.
So you know they're sort offull of those sorts of metaphors
(20:22):
.
And in the story the journey ofthe mouse is actually having to
face the fear, so he has tolook the monster in the face.
And when he looks the monsterin the face he can finally see
that actually it's not a monsterat all.
It's actually a load ofbrambles that are sort of down
in the cellar that have grownthrough a small window.
(20:42):
But he has to face it first andhe has to attack it and he has
to be very brave.
Then it just disappears.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
I like that.
That's really nice.
Now, how's the feedback been?
It's always nice to hearsomething positive.
Have you found that it's helpedthe kids in the way that you
hoped it would?
Speaker 2 (20:58):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I've heard some great feedback
from parents, but I'm also fromteachers, you know, working in
pastoral roles or in send roleswithin schools, doing that work
as well, and therapists, some ofmy own I say that my own
therapists, that don't belong tome, but the therapists that I
have working for the charity,they use them too, which is just
(21:21):
wonderful.
So, yeah, I mean I think thatthe distance, you know, having
that degree of separation,making it about animals and sort
of having those metaphors,really can help us to engage
with something that otherwisecould be too scary, too scary to
look at.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
Yes, I think that's a great idea, just a great way to
put things across in a verysubtle way.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Thank you, yeah, yeah , I mean, I hope so.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
Oh, I'm sure it's working well.
You mentioned a second book.
What is that one about?
Speaker 2 (21:55):
Okay.
So the second book is based ona series of interviews I did
with late identified autistics.
In those interviews they toldme their stories and out of all
the interviews, themes aroserelated to autism, and the
themes that arose wereloneliness, masking,
vulnerability to abuse, sensorysensitivities and persistent
(22:19):
drive for autonomy PDA, whateverpeople want to call it.
So actually what I've done isI've used a similar sort of idea
, so I've written five storiesinterwoven into a sixth and the
story set in a fantasy worldaimed at teens.
The fantasy world is calledGalateria.
(22:42):
The stories are very muchinspired by the lives of the
people that I interviewed andthey very much explore the
themes that came out of thoseinterviews.
And it's sort of.
I suppose the idea is that whenpeople read it they might see
themselves in it or, you know,they might gain a better
(23:03):
understanding of what the feltexperience is of being autistic.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
That's great.
When is it due to be released?
Speaker 2 (23:14):
October, I'm hoping.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
All right, yeah, that's good, really good.
Now, how do people find you?
Speaker 2 (23:22):
They can Google me.
I think I'm probably on quite afew websites, but they can find
me on LinkedIn, particularly,or Instagram, so you could look
at our websites.
Bounce Brighter Futures, sojust search that.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
I think you said you was on Instagram as well.
What's your name on that one?
Speaker 2 (23:40):
Yeah, hayley Graham author.
Hayley Graham author.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
That's great.
Now what would you like to tellthe listeners that you think is
really important that they knowabout what you're doing and
what you're trying to do?
Speaker 2 (23:53):
Oh, okay.
So I'm going to say what I'mtrying to do is trying to
encourage people to think.
I think the world would be abetter place if we were all more
thoughtful and if we are morethoughtful and consider other
(24:14):
people's experiences and haveempathy and compassion and have
empathy and compassion.
Yeah, I think that's what I'maiming for is to help people
just think and be morethoughtful.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
That is just a great attitude and philosophy to carry
through life.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
Yeah, I mean, it's sort of distilling it down, I
suppose.
But I sort of think that youknow it's easy, isn't it?
Just to say this is right, thisis wrong.
You know, take a side.
But it's about taking some timeto think and be more thoughtful
.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
Absolutely.
This has been great Goodconversation, good information.
I appreciate you taking thetime to come on my show.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
I am very grateful for the offer to come along.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
It's been my pleasure .
Thanks again.
Thanks for taking the time outof your busy schedule to listen
to our show today.
We hope that you enjoyed it asmuch as we enjoyed bringing it
to you.
If you know anyone that wouldlike to tell us their story,
(25:26):
send them to TonyMantorcomContact then they can give us
their information so one daythey may be a guest on our show.
One more thing we ask telleveryone everywhere about why
Not Me, the world, theconversations we're having and
(25:46):
the inspiration our guests giveto everyone everywhere that you
are not alone in this world.
You.
Welcome to why Not Me , the World?
Podcast, hosted by Tony Mantor,broadcasting from Music City,
usa, nashville, tennessee.
Join us as our guests tell ustheir stories.
Some will make you laugh, somewill make you cry.
Their stories Some will makeyou laugh, some will make you
(00:28):
cry.
Real life people who willinspire and show that you are
not alone in this world.
Hopefully, you gain moreawareness, acceptance and a
better understanding for autismaround the world.
Hi, I'm Tony Mantor.
(00:53):
Welcome to why Not Me?
The World.
Today we have Haley Graham, apsychotherapist, author and
charity founder of BounceBrighter Futures Foundation.
She is passionate about thetransformative power of stories
and fostering meaningfulconnections.
Today she shares her journeywith mental health therapy,
autism and her lived experiences.
(01:14):
Thanks for coming on.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Ah, it's my pleasure.
Yeah, I feel really honored.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
If you would tell us a little bit about what you do.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
I'm a therapist, so I trained first as an adult
psychotherapist and then I wenton to train as a child
psychotherapist.
In 2019, january 2019, Ifounded a mental health charity
for children here in Devon.
Also, I write, I post stuff onLinkedIn about autism and
(01:45):
consider myself sort of to someextent, on a very sort of low
level, to be sort of an advocatefor autistic people.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
Now you have a charity.
Can you expand and explain tous a little more about your
charity?
Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah, a littlemore about your charity?
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So I mean, it started off in2019, basically with me
providing pro bono work two daysa week to local schools.
And now today we're sort of ateam of 20 people.
We've got 12 therapists workingand providing support to 90
families a week and providingsupport to 90 families a week,
(02:27):
so that's sort of one-to-onespecialists, psychotherapeutic
support for children, youngpeople and their parents.
You know, we also provide somesupport to sort of teachers in
schools and that sort of thingas well.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
Where you work with the school systems.
What are some of the challengesyou find yourself facing?
Speaker 2 (02:44):
In running the charity, the biggest challenge
100% is money, it's funding.
It's such a hand-to-mouthexistence.
You know you're in a positionwhere you've only got three
months' money and you're sort ofbuilding sandcastles in the air
.
So you know it's because you'resort of trying to sort of plan
(03:06):
and grow and think about thefuture and at the same time you
know if the money doesn't comethrough you're going to have to
fold and that's what it's like.
I mean, it's such ahand-to-mouth existence and it's
not getting any easier.
You know getting harder to getmoney.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
Yeah, I understand that.
It's tough all around.
Now, do you deal with moreautistic people or mental health
?
Speaker 2 (03:29):
So the our sort of clients, if you like, our
service users.
I mean, we provide mentalhealth support and we were
having a conversation the otherday as a sort of a small you
know just small group of us inthe team and I would say
probably 50% of the children andyoung people that come through
(03:50):
our door either have a diagnosisof autism or are on the pathway
or, you know, have a diagnosisof ADHD.
So it's a very, very highproportion of the children,
young people that we work withare neurodivergent.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
Yeah, okay Now, with all the people that you do work
with, what are some of theissues that you have to work
with and how complex does it getfor you?
Speaker 2 (04:20):
Gosh.
Yeah, it's a big question.
I mean it's very wide ranging.
I would say, and I think it'sprobably reflected everywhere,
that the complexity of whatwe're seeing is increasing.
So you know, we don't get a lotof kids now just presenting
with sort of maybe a littleanxiety, with sort of maybe a
(04:43):
little anxiety.
You know there's a lot oftrauma there.
So we're seeing a lot ofcomplex problems within.
You know, the kids that aresort of neurodivergent
presenting often withdifficulties with school
attendance.
So we're getting a lot of thatas well at the moment, a lot of
(05:05):
kids who are just reallystruggling with school.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
Do you find that you often deal with kids that may
have bullying as an issuebecause they don't have their
social skills the way they mightneed to be to avoid that?
Speaker 2 (05:28):
Yeah, I mean, you know, I suppose it's across the
board.
I think bullying definitely ispart of the picture, often
online, I would say and I guesspeople might disagree with me,
but I would say that bullying isprobably secondary.
I would say that kids feel likethey don't necessarily belong,
(05:52):
but I think that they reallystruggle with the system and I
think it's more about the wholeschool environment than simply
being bullied by other kids.
I mean, that's sort of that'smy feeling.
I think it's a whole systemthing and a sense of not
(06:13):
belonging in that system and notbeing able to find a place
within it, particularly, youknow, spaces where they can feel
safe.
I suppose you know they're veryintense environments.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
Yes, it can get very difficult for the kids,
unfortunately, when you dealwith the teachers.
What do you find that you'readdressing in that capacity?
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Well, I mean, I suppose at the moment, mainly
what we're doing is we'reproviding support for teachers,
because it's a difficult job forthem.
You know, they're now having todeal with a lot of children who
are struggling.
They're sort of trying toprovide mental health support
when actually what they want tobe doing is they want to be
(06:59):
teaching, they want to beeducating, and you know they're
seeing a lot of stuff, they'rehearing a lot of stuff, so they
need support and actually whatwe're often doing is we're often
supporting them to think aboutchildren and to think about what
the needs of that child mightbe, but also to support them so
(07:20):
they can go back to class andsupport that child, because it's
a difficult job, you know, Imean, you've got 30 kids in a
class and you've got, you know,five, six kids in that class who
are struggling in some way oranother.
It's a difficult job.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
Yes, it is absolutely a very difficult job.
When you start working with achild or children, you see they
are having some struggles.
What are some of the thingsthat you do to give them a
pathway for a better mindset andto a better future?
Speaker 2 (07:57):
Yeah, okay, I think that's really tricky.
I think that it's again.
We have these conversations, wetalk about these things.
I think it depends on themotivation of the child or the
young person and I think if theyreally want to be in school,
then you can help them.
You can give them strategies ifthey're highly motivated, you
(08:21):
know to help them sort of managetheir anxiety, for example.
You know we can do that.
We can sort of go throughrelaxation techniques, we can go
through grounding techniques.
We can help them think aboutsituations that arise and how
they might frame thosesituations and think about them
(08:41):
in different ways.
But I think it really depends onthe motivation of the child and
I think that you know we alsoneed to be careful and I suppose
the conversation that we werehaving the other day is
something around.
As therapists, you know we haveto be really careful that what
we're not doing is we're notjust saying to kids that are
(09:02):
autistic or ADHD, you know thisis how to mask better, or, if we
are, we need to be really clear.
That's what we're saying.
We're saying to them if this iswhat you want to do, you know
you can try this, but we need tobe really careful that we're
not suggesting that their way ofbeing in the world is wrong.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
Right, I agree.
The biggest issue I see is whenan autistic person decides that
they want to mask it.
They can only do that for solong before it will start to
affect them mentally and createsome issues for them to cope
with it.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
Absolutely, yeah, 100%, yeah.
And you know that masking andwe hear this so often, you know
we hear of kids that sort ofmanaging in school and actually
when we talk to the schools,they say, no, we're not having a
problem here, and the kids aregoing home at the end of the day
and they're just going intocomplete meltdown.
And you know they because it'sbeen so difficult all day that
(10:07):
they've been masking and so Ithink, yeah, absolutely, you
know, if they're doing that andthen they're getting burned out
and their mental health issuffering, we do need to be
careful and I think it'ssomething we need to think about
as therapists, really, and howwe manage that.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Yes, that's true.
Now you reach out to a lot ofareas with posts and blogs.
I understand you have amagazine.
I think it's called BounceBrighter Future.
Is that correct?
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Oh, yeah, that's our Bounce magazine.
Have you come across that?
Yeah, brilliant, yeah, yeah,yeah, that's our inaugural
magazine.
Yeah, the Bounce magazine.
So yeah, bounce Brighter Futureis a charity.
Yeah, the Bounce magazine.
So yeah, bounce BrighterFutures is a charity.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
Yeah, that's great.
Now, is that still an ongoingthing that you do along with
your social media?
I know you have a very goodimpression out there with your
social media, along with yourmagazine.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
I would say in terms of my LinkedIn, if you like.
My social media presence isvery much for me about sharing
lived experience and hoping thatthat might help people.
By hearing about my experiencesthey might feel less alone,
more understood.
So I think very much my socialmedia presence, largely speaking
(11:28):
, for me is about that.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
That's great.
I think anything you can do tohelp people like that is a good
thing.
Now, what led you down thispath to do what you're doing now
?
Speaker 2 (11:40):
So I started out my career as a pharmacist, so I
graduated from university as apharmacist.
It was back.
I guess in would have beenabout 2005, something like that.
I have two sons, and myyoungest at that time would have
been seven and he was reallystruggling.
He was really struggling withschool.
(12:01):
We could not get him to go.
He was very unhappy.
You know, he would be hangingonto the doorframes in the
morning and we would be sort ofunpeeling his fingers from the
doorframes and carrying him, youknow, to the car, putting him
in the car and then sort oftaking him to school and trying
to get him out the other side.
I mean, it was, it was, it wasa nightmare.
(12:22):
It was a nightmare and we hadabsolutely no idea what was
going on.
You know, I looked, I lookedfor help, I tried to get help.
I sort of went to the GP andyou know, see if I could sort of
get a referral to CAMHS, whichis, you know, the statutory
service over here, camhs, andyou know they were interested,
(12:44):
to be perfectly honest, and youknow, I was looking for private
help and I couldn't.
I just couldn't find any helpand we couldn't make any sense
of it.
Ultimately we decided towithdraw him from school because
I could see I mean anybodycould have seen it I mean my son
became very anxious, verywithdrawn, quite low, I would
(13:06):
say, and we took him out ofschool.
There was just no, nothing elseto do.
I mean there was no otheranswer.
And I gave up work to homeeducate him.
And it was at that point,really, I thought, okay, I just
need to try and make sense ofthis.
So I started doing a relativelylocal psychotherapy training,
(13:29):
but that was an adult trainingand that was over a period of
four years.
And then I did that and at theend of it then I decided to go
on and do a child training, andthat was driven entirely by my
need, my desire to sort of makesense of things and also to help
ourselves as a family.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
When you was going through all this?
How did you approach it?
Did you take any steps withdoctors?
Did you find out that you wasautistic?
What were your findings on this?
Speaker 2 (13:57):
So I mean, we just sort of carried on the best we
could.
My son then, as an adult he'snow 27, decided that he would
put himself forward for an ADHDdiagnosis, which he has now.
I think he would self-identifyas autistic too, and I think
that was, you know, that's beenthe change for us really.
(14:20):
I guess.
And particularly you know, thechange for me is looking back at
all those years and all my lifereally for myself personally
and how much sense that has madeour life together as a family,
and I guess is the reason why Iput these things out there,
because I know how muchdifference that made to me to
(14:41):
have that understanding and hasmade to us as a family to have
that understanding.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
That totally makes so much sense and I'm glad that it
actually did help your family.
After that, did you findyourself going back to school?
Back to college.
What were the next steps ofyour journey?
Speaker 2 (15:00):
Yeah.
So I did my first training, asI said, quite locally and then I
did another four-year training,sort of going up and down to
London and did a childpsychotherapy training.
In that I suppose I had adesire to do something to help.
I think when I hadn't been ableto get any help when my son was
young, I'd sort of made thatdecision then that one day I
(15:22):
wanted to try and set up acharity that would provide
support for those parents thatwere struggling to find help.
And even though there's moreunderstanding out there now,
help is still very hard to comeby because thresholds for
statutory services are very highand, you know, private therapy
is very expensive.
So there's a huge number ofpeople that just don't know
(15:44):
where to go.
Their children are strugglingand they don't know where to go
for help.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Yes, that is a huge thing that I hear from so many
different people.
When they find their child isautistic, ADHD or whatever the
case may be, there's a hugeblack cloud hovering around them
because they just don't knowwhat to do.
So in your travels, have youseen where you've been able to
(16:09):
be that bridge between the knownand the unknown for these
people, where you have lived itso you're able to help them
navigate through some thingsthat give them a better
understanding, so that way theycan move forward with more
knowledge of what they'redealing with?
Speaker 2 (16:27):
I hope so.
Yeah, I mean I feel that wewere making up as we went along
for so long and I suppose in myexperience the things that work
for autistic kids works for alot of kids.
So you know it's.
I think that we have to, Iguess, help parents be more
(16:48):
confident.
I think that parents areworried they're not doing the
right thing and I think it'sreally important we help them to
feel that they have the skills,the tools to feel confident to
help their children.
And yeah, I mean, I thinkcertainly as a therapist, in
sort of my own private practice,I'm able to sort of help
(17:11):
parents think about autism andalso think about ways of helping
their children.
But there's nothing.
What's the word?
There's nothing complex aboutit.
Maybe that's not quite theright word, you know it's not
rocket science.
Then what I'm suggesting?
It's still things like justbeing curious, you know, being
(17:33):
curious about their experience,what's going on for them.
I think that sort of curiosityis so important because I think
for me personally and I think Ican say, you know, for my family
, what I see in the people thatI work with, whether they're
adults or kids, you know, isthis sort of negation of
(17:53):
experience, we're told it can'tbe that way, it can't be like
that.
So actually for somebody to becurious about your experience
and be open and accepting andempathic about that experience,
you know it can be absolutelylife changing.
That then helps to support themental health, the mental health
(18:15):
difficulties that arise as aresult of autism.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
That's a great help.
That's a great way to look atit.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
From where I stand, you know, autism in itself is
not a problem.
It's fitting into society thatmakes it a problem, and mental
health problems result from that.
So actually we're helping thesechildren with their mental
health.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
Absolutely.
I could not agree more.
Now I understand that you'vewritten a book or two.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
Well, I've written one, I've written two, but the
second one hasn't been publishedyet.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
Can you give us a little information about the
book?
Speaker 2 (18:51):
The first one is about mental health.
So it uses stories aboutwoodland animals to explore
trauma, anxiety, ocd, loss,shame, attachment.
The idea is that it helpseducate but helps sort of
improve understanding and Ithink through understanding then
(19:12):
we find compassion and empathy.
Also, to help big people,adults have conversations with
children and young peoplebecause that's so important.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
being able to talk about our mental health is so
important yes, the ability totalk about anything like that is
very, very important.
Now tell me about your book.
I believe you said that it's astory driven book.
What's one of the favoritestories that you seem to get the
most feedback on?
Speaker 2 (19:41):
One of the sort of favorite stories, it seems, is
one called Shadow Monster, andthe analogy there is they don't
have names, they're just thenames of the animals.
So there's a mouse and a badger.
The mouse has a monster in thecellar and the monster is
(20:01):
obviously a metaphor for anxiety.
I mean, it's really exploringOCD.
Actually, you know it's morethan anxiety, but I know that
sort of people working with kidshave used it to explore anxiety
and I've done some sort ofgreat work with it.
So you know they're sort offull of those sorts of metaphors
(20:22):
.
And in the story the journey ofthe mouse is actually having to
face the fear, so he has tolook the monster in the face.
And when he looks the monsterin the face he can finally see
that actually it's not a monsterat all.
It's actually a load ofbrambles that are sort of down
in the cellar that have grownthrough a small window.
(20:42):
But he has to face it first andhe has to attack it and he has
to be very brave.
Then it just disappears.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
I like that.
That's really nice.
Now, how's the feedback been?
It's always nice to hearsomething positive.
Have you found that it's helpedthe kids in the way that you
hoped it would?
Speaker 2 (20:58):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I've heard some great feedback
from parents, but I'm also fromteachers, you know, working in
pastoral roles or in send roleswithin schools, doing that work
as well, and therapists, some ofmy own I say that my own
therapists, that don't belong tome, but the therapists that I
have working for the charity,they use them too, which is just
(21:21):
wonderful.
So, yeah, I mean I think thatthe distance, you know, having
that degree of separation,making it about animals and sort
of having those metaphors,really can help us to engage
with something that otherwisecould be too scary, too scary to
look at.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
Yes, I think that's a great idea, just a great way to
put things across in a verysubtle way.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Thank you, yeah, yeah , I mean, I hope so.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
Oh, I'm sure it's working well.
You mentioned a second book.
What is that one about?
Speaker 2 (21:55):
Okay.
So the second book is based ona series of interviews I did
with late identified autistics.
In those interviews they toldme their stories and out of all
the interviews, themes aroserelated to autism, and the
themes that arose wereloneliness, masking,
vulnerability to abuse, sensorysensitivities and persistent
(22:19):
drive for autonomy PDA, whateverpeople want to call it.
So actually what I've done isI've used a similar sort of idea
, so I've written five storiesinterwoven into a sixth and the
story set in a fantasy worldaimed at teens.
The fantasy world is calledGalateria.
(22:42):
The stories are very muchinspired by the lives of the
people that I interviewed andthey very much explore the
themes that came out of thoseinterviews.
And it's sort of.
I suppose the idea is that whenpeople read it they might see
themselves in it or, you know,they might gain a better
(23:03):
understanding of what the feltexperience is of being autistic.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
That's great.
When is it due to be released?
Speaker 2 (23:14):
October, I'm hoping.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
All right, yeah, that's good, really good.
Now, how do people find you?
Speaker 2 (23:22):
They can Google me.
I think I'm probably on quite afew websites, but they can find
me on LinkedIn, particularly,or Instagram, so you could look
at our websites.
Bounce Brighter Futures, sojust search that.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
I think you said you was on Instagram as well.
What's your name on that one?
Speaker 2 (23:40):
Yeah, hayley Graham author.
Hayley Graham author.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
That's great.
Now what would you like to tellthe listeners that you think is
really important that they knowabout what you're doing and
what you're trying to do?
Speaker 2 (23:53):
Oh, okay.
So I'm going to say what I'mtrying to do is trying to
encourage people to think.
I think the world would be abetter place if we were all more
thoughtful and if we are morethoughtful and consider other
(24:14):
people's experiences and haveempathy and compassion and have
empathy and compassion.
Yeah, I think that's what I'maiming for is to help people
just think and be morethoughtful.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
That is just a great attitude and philosophy to carry
through life.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
Yeah, I mean, it's sort of distilling it down, I
suppose.
But I sort of think that youknow it's easy, isn't it?
Just to say this is right, thisis wrong.
You know, take a side.
But it's about taking some timeto think and be more thoughtful
.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
Absolutely.
This has been great Goodconversation, good information.
I appreciate you taking thetime to come on my show.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
I am very grateful for the offer to come along.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
It's been my pleasure .
Thanks again.
Thanks for taking the time outof your busy schedule to listen
to our show today.
We hope that you enjoyed it asmuch as we enjoyed bringing it
to you.
If you know anyone that wouldlike to tell us their story,
(25:26):
send them to TonyMantorcomContact then they can give us
their information so one daythey may be a guest on our show.
One more thing we ask telleveryone everywhere about why
Not Me, the world, theconversations we're having and
(25:46):
the inspiration our guests giveto everyone everywhere that you
are not alone in this world.
You.
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