Jessica Ferguson shares the deeply personal story of her brother's struggle with serious mental illness and how systemic failures led to his incarceration after being accused of a triple homicide when he should have been in psychiatric care.
• Her brother had been stable with his mental illness for a decade before showing concerning behavior changes in early 2023
• Despite three psychiatric hospitalizations within months, he was repeatedly discharged after 72-hour holds with no substantial care plan
• Family pleas for help were ignored as healthcare providers cited voluntary treatment requirements and HIPAA restrictions
• Only after being accused of a crime did he receive consistent psychiatric care
• The jail system provides minimal mental health support compared to psychiatric hospitals
• Families need healthcare proxy arrangements and better knowledge of resources before crises occur
• Massachusetts lacks Assisted Outpatient Treatment (AOT) options that could mandate treatment
• Mental health systems must partner with families who know their loved ones best
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to why Not Me ?
The World Podcast, hosted byTony Mantor, broadcasting from
Music City, usa, nashville,tennessee.
Join us as our guests tell ustheir stories.
Some will make you laugh, somewill make you cry.
Their stories Some will makeyou laugh, some will make you
(00:30):
cry.
Real life people who willinspire and show that you are
not alone in this world.
Hopefully, you gain moreawareness, acceptance and a
better understanding for autismAround the World.
Hi, I'm Tony Mantor.
(00:52):
Welcome to why Not Me?
The World Humanity OverHandcuffs the Silent Crisis
special event.
Today we're joined by JessicaFerguson, who will share the
deeply personal story of herbrother's struggle with mental
illness.
She'll take us through thechallenges of supporting him,
the events and circumstancesthat ultimately led to his
(01:12):
incarceration, and the family'songoing efforts to advocate for
mental health awareness andreform.
Thanks for coming on.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Yeah, no problem, no problem.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Can you give us a little background and what led
your journey to supportingmental illness?
Speaker 2 (01:29):
So I have a sibling who has severe mental illness
and at the beginning of 2023,he's been very he'd been with
his treatment for the last.
He's had it for 20 years, but Imean so the last 10 years he's
been stable and fine.
In the beginning of 2023, westarted to notice some changes
(01:49):
going on.
He was not quite himself andthen just kind of navigating the
system and, you know, trying toget him help, you know, the
next three to four or fivemonths or so, and just
constantly being, you know, involuntary hospitalizations for
72 hours and left back outwithout any kind of involvement
of the family or any care planput in place.
Even though we're begging,please keep him.
(02:11):
He's just not right.
And truthfully, you know, wewere like, big question,
massachusetts is always are theya harm to themselves or others?
And of course, at the time, I'mlike, of course I'm going to
answer honestly, like no, I'mnot afraid of him or anything.
I mean, if anything, at thattime I was probably more afraid
something was going to happen tohim, like he was going to get
hit by a car or something likethat, like he wouldn't be paying
attention and he had oddbehaviors.
(02:33):
At that point he was no walkingaround barefoot.
So like I was fearing, like ishe going to step on a nail or
something like that?
I don't know, but anyways.
So go through that wholeprocess back and forth, back and
forth, get slid out.
10 days after his thirdhospitalization, in three or
four months, he's being accusedof a triple homicide.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
Wow.
So what's happening now?
Moving forward.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
I couldn't tell you what happened that day, if he
did it or not, or all I can sayat this point is that he is
accused of it.
The silver lining is nowthey've given him help the past
year.
So maybe if they'd done all ofthat back, when we were
screaming for them to do it, hewouldn't have even been in a
position, meaning he would havebeen in a hospital to be accused
(03:14):
of anything.
So I think that it's likeMassachusetts and again I can
only speak for Massachusettsalmost the only way to get them
help is for them to get caughtdoing something or in trouble
for doing something.
Then they're finally like ohwell, yes, he needs to be
hospitalized.
Well, yes, he actually neededthat months ago, and when I told
you that, he didn't want tolisten.
(03:34):
So that's kind of the shortversion of my story.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
That's a very tough situation to be in with a
sibling.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
Just looking back on everything, I mean there's just
so much leading up to it.
Like, honestly, I didn't know.
Like I'm the older sister, Imean some people, some family
members, are like the parentsand they've been in it forever.
Like my relationship with mysibling was.
I was his sibling.
Seven years ago my motherpassed away, so I'm the oldest
sibling, so I guess I'm takingon that role and I was just
learning, as I go Firsthospitalization I think I
(04:04):
thought, oh, they let him out.
Doctors are the experts, so hemust be fine, he's good.
Of course they wouldn't let himout.
He called me on a Wednesday inthe middle of the day come pick
me up.
Oh, okay, they're just lettingyou out.
I guess that's how it works,because that was my experience
with hospitals at that point.
I mean, I've gottencolonoscopies before and they
won't let me drive myself homeor let alone leave the office
(04:25):
without someone physicallycoming up.
You cannot take a taxi, youcannot take an Uber.
They're letting my brother out.
Okay, they know, the doctorsare the experts, right?
And that's when I started torealize you know, he gets home
and my sister she's like, yeah,he's not okay.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
So what's his age now ?
Speaker 2 (04:46):
He is.
Let me do some math here 42right now.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Okay, 42.
So when did this all start?
Speaker 2 (04:53):
This happened in 2023 .
So he was 41.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
What were some of the events and developments that
led you to believe that heneeded help?
Speaker 2 (05:01):
The word my sister and I would use to another.
He's just off.
And then the final catalyst forus to call our mobile crisis
unit was she called me at like 7am on a Saturday morning.
It was like he's takeneverything out of his room Many
years ago.
He's had other episodes, youknow again this point had been
about a decade ago.
He kind of gone through thislike purging of all of his
(05:23):
things perfectly good things,there's nothing wrong with them
and so he completely emptied outhis entire bedroom and was, you
know, taking mattresses outsideand just desks everything out
of his room.
And when we asked him what he'sdoing he's on winter cleaning.
That point I said he was stillat a point where he was
(05:44):
agreeable.
I said you know, why don't wecall your care team and see,
just have someone come out andtalk to you.
And he was fine with that.
In Massachusetts you have themobile crisis unit to come out.
The patient has to agree to it.
Everything in Massachusetts isvery voluntary.
Like they won't let you.
There's not a whole lot of likeinvoluntary, so you have to
have their buy-in point.
(06:05):
Sure they can come, like youknow he's very agreeable at this
point.
And the mobile crisis unitclinician came out.
At that point it wasn't liketake him away, or I wasn't
saying take him away, I was likesomeone just evaluate him.
So they were going to evaluatehim.
Well, when the clinician gotthere, he kind of was like I'm
not ready to talk to them, tookhis time and then we kind of
left him out, gave him somespace, left him outside for
about five minutes and once wewent outside to go get him he
was gone.
And so then it turned into thislike well, where is he?
(06:26):
Where is he?
When the clinician saw thatbehavior, the clinician made the
determination that he needs togo to.
Based on what I'm seeing, thelittle I've seen, he needs to go
and be hospitalized.
So the clinician is the personthat pink slipped him.
That's what started it.
And then, even after that firsthospitalization, he was still at
a point mentally where he wasagreeable or at least playing
(06:46):
the game.
And you know, he allowed us tobe part of the conversations
with his clinician and hisprescriber.
We got on Zoom calls with himand his prescriber and he was,
you know, willing for us to havethis be part of the
conversation.
Meanwhile I'm also emailing theclinician because they're
seeing him for 45 minutes on aTuesday and I'm seeing him all
(07:06):
week and so I'm emailing themand being like, just so you know
, this is what we're seeing,we're still concerned, we don't
think something's right.
And they were kind of like OK,yeah, ok.
And then it got to the point byMarch that he had determined my
brother had said must have toldthe clinician, you can no
(07:29):
longer speak to them.
So then they were like we hearyou, but unfortunately I am not
able to speak to you about himany longer.
So at that point he kind of cutus off.
And that's when it was steadydecline down.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
So after that happened, when did you get
involved again and trying to getsome say on what needed to be
done, moving forward?
Speaker 2 (07:43):
you know, march.
I kind of like backed off andmy younger sister was saying you
know, he's annoyed at you beingpestering and you know meddling
.
So I kind of backed off.
I was like, all right, I'mgoing to give him some space,
like and again, I'm not amedical, mental health expert.
I had no idea how to likehandle this.
I'm just trying to take my bestguess at things.
I'm calling we have abehavioral health fund.
(08:04):
I'm calling them and they'retelling me, oh, take him to this
walk-in clinic, they canobserve him.
I'm like I don't think he'sgoing to go for that At this
point.
He's like turned off by anythingthat I have to say, like I'm
just a thorn in his side.
I suggested to him as suspectedno, a friend of his suggested
to him no.
So he kind of just I would sayby April, may, we're like just
(08:27):
kind of like standing by, beinglike somebody pick him up and
take him to the hospital again,like I don't know what else to
do, because it is hard to belike the one to pick up the
phone and be like take mybrother to the hospital.
I mean, you don't want to bethe bad guy or anything like
that.
And at that point, like alsolike I had no idea what a Rogers
guardianship was or what kindof options there were other than
this 800 behavioral health linethat I've heard about and this
(08:51):
mobile crisis unit that I hadalready called once before, and
at this point they had told methat he needs to agree to it.
So I'm like he's not going toagree to it, so why am I going
to bother calling them again?
So in May, the police ended uppicking him up and taking him to
the hospital on their own.
I don't know exactly whathappened, but there was some
incident.
We were like, oh, thank God,and it was kind of near Memorial
(09:12):
Day weekend or so he was therea little bit longer than just
the three days I think it had todo with like weekends don't
count, and then you had aholiday in there, I think
something to that effect, andagain, I'm not exactly sure.
So I ended up being there alittle bit longer.
I didn't have any directconversations with anyone at
that hospital stay.
Again, at that point I was kindof like I don't know what to do
(09:34):
, like he's bothered by me.
His friend and my sister wereprobably more, a little bit more
involved with that hospitalstay, and by a little bit more.
I mean, maybe there was like aphone call, but again they
released him, sent him home inan Uber.
My sister had talked to them,but they didn't tell her like,
oh, this is the care plan.
Oh, do you want to come pickhim up?
There was nothing.
It was just like here's yourvoucher for an Uber ride to
(09:57):
wherever you want.
Bye.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
So what happened at that point?
Was there any change?
Speaker 2 (10:02):
Again he comes home and we're all like yeah, he's
not OK, like no, and at thispoint he's quit his job.
He had a full-time job and thenhad also worked part-time.
After his first hospitalizationhe quit his full-time job
Sometime in the end of May, soprobably after the second
hospitalization he quit hispart-time job.
So he's not working.
(10:23):
He has no money Because at thispoint, like any money he could
get his hands on, it was spentwithin before it even hit his
pocket.
And so by June 11th I wasdriving by his house and his
stuff is outside.
Again he brought everythingoutside of his room.
After the first time I wentlike, retrieved everything out
from the garage and put it inwherever he put it around the
(10:44):
house.
I retrieved it all.
He had taken his mattress backoutside.
Some of my belongings areoutside and I'm like one,
irritated that my stuff'soutside and like what is he
doing?
And I was like that's it I'mcalling, like this is ridiculous
.
I called 911 and told them likelisten, please come, because
again, that's what I thought youdid.
I didn't know it was eithermobile crisis or the police, I
(11:05):
don't know.
So they came, he disappeared,they looked for him and they got
him again and they brought himback to the same hospital.
He went to the second time.
Again, there was very littlecommunication with the family
and then we hadn't heardanything.
And so I called like hey, I'mjust calling to see what's going
on.
I haven't heard anything andthey're like, yeah, we're
(11:25):
releasing him today.
I'm like I'm sorry, what?
Like yeah, we're releasing him.
I was like, um, no, no, this isand I go into this whole spiel
about this is the third time.
You know, whatever months we'vealready done this 72 hour whole
thing.
He needs to stay longer.
Like blah, blah, blah, blah.
And they're like, yeah, this isthe third time in a hospital.
(11:47):
Like I don't understand.
And they're like, well, let mesee what we can do.
And I think you know, listen,I've worked at customer service.
They're just trying to talk meoff the ledge.
So they got me off the phonefor five minutes.
Call me back.
And they're like yeah, wetalked to the doctor.
There's, unfortunately, wecan't, can't do anything.
If you want to file with thecourts, you can, but you have to
(12:09):
get a lawyer.
I don't know anything aboutthis.
You're telling me this at thefinal hour, that this is my
option.
Like, okay, thanks for nothing.
I don't know.
So I was like I don't even knowwhat to do with it.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
I don't even know what you're saying means.
So, with all this happening,not knowing what to do, what
were the next steps for you?
Speaker 2 (12:28):
And so then my sister calls.
My sister lives with him withher child, who's young,
elementary school age, beggingthem.
Please, like don't bring himhome.
Of course is he a danger tohimself or others.
And she's like I mean he'sdoing things that could be
dangerous.
You know he's bringing tikitorches into our house, he's
leaving pots on our stove andjust forgetting about them and
(12:52):
you know they're burning, likeso, yes, something could happen.
They're like, yeah, no, thatthere's nothing we can do.
We're so sorry.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
Wow, so this is the third time that he's been in
this type of situation.
What were some of the nextsteps that you took to try and
help him?
Speaker 2 (13:07):
I think I was just kind of calling this behavioral
helpline.
All they were telling me was togo to these clinics.
I was like, well, that's not anoption and I think that I just
was at a loss.
I didn't know what to do atthis point.
Hadn't really been connected.
I tried calling at some pointNAMI.
I heard they had a family tofamily class, but I had missed
the start of it because I didn'tget started in March.
(13:28):
So I didn't get any informationthat way and I really didn't
hadn't dug into NAMI and all thedifferent resources that they
do have.
Again, I'm learning this likemid crisis, in the midst of
everything.
I'm working full time.
I have my own life, like Idon't know.
So was I doing anythingprofound at that point?
Probably not.
(13:49):
But again, I didn't necessarilythink that.
Like I wasn't afraid that hewas going to hurt himself.
Like I said, more of a had oddbehavior.
You know, like again walkingaround barefoot or, you know,
going to open houses for milliondollar homes.
He doesn't have a penny to hisname, like that.
But telling me.
(14:09):
But then telling me, jess, Ithink I found the one.
This is the house, this isgoing to be the house, and I'm
like, just you know, obviouslynot in reality.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
So when he got out and ultimately he was accused,
mm-hmm.
So what happened then?
Now you're dealing with thelegal system.
That's a completely differentsystem than dealing with the
hospitals psychiatric hospital.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
When he was accused, police took him to the hospital
because they were like, oh, heneeds to be hospitalized.
And from the hospital he wasnot there for 72 hours.
(14:54):
They took him to jail.
Then, from jail he was actingpsychotic and they're like we
can't do this.
This is not us.
Within 24 to 40 hours of beingin jail he's sent to the state
psychiatric hospital, which, formen, is run by the Department
of Corrections.
It's not run by our Departmentof Mental Health.
The Department of Correctionshires a contractor to handle the
(15:15):
medical needs.
So he was sent there and he wasthere for 11, almost 12 months.
He was found not competent tostand trial for the first 11 or
so months.
So he was receiving care.
I mean he was medical compliant.
Like he was, you know, notcompetent to stand trial.
(15:36):
It doesn't really mean like areyou acting crazy, it's just can
you aid in your defense?
He was found not competent butat this point we're able to
visit with him, we'll have mealswith him.
Like visitation Over time gotmuch more closer to his baseline
, much more recognizable as whowe know.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
That sounds a little better.
So how did that work out andwhat was the journey like from
that point?
Speaker 2 (16:00):
He was then found confident to stand trial, which
then means oh, back to jail foryou, while they claim there's
mental health care there.
The mental health care for himconsisted of, once a week a
clinician stopped by his cellfor 10 to 15 minutes and that
was it, and he got hismedication.
Every day he came in.
There's an intake unit that yougo into the intake unit for 72
(16:21):
hours so they can observe you,especially when you're coming
from a psychiatric hospital.
So he was in a cell by himselffor the first 72 hours.
It was very difficult tounderstand.
Like the prison, the actualjail operates completely
different than the psychiatrichospital.
The psychiatric hospital, again, is overseen by the Department
of Corrections.
The jail is overseen by thecounty sheriff department.
(16:43):
So, figuring out this whole newsystem, how things work, all
these things, the cliniciantalks to him and says you know,
here are your options of whereto go from this intake unit, we
have a mental health unit thatyou can go to.
The mental health unit is dormstyle one big room, 40, some odd
beds, everyone living in thesame space.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
So how did that work out from there?
Speaker 2 (17:07):
Depending on your personality, that sounds
wonderful or that sounds awful.
For his personality that soundsawful he's like no, our
personalities are very differentand that sounds awful to me.
So it was either that or staywhere he's at in this room by
himself.
So he was like I'm all set, I'mgoing to stay by myself, which
meant he was very isolated, verylike, not healthy for anybody,
(17:29):
any human being Like.
He didn't have interactionswith anyone.
He was in a cell by himselfessentially 24 hours a day,
whereas before at thepsychiatric hospital he could
walk around.
There was TV he could.
He had a TV in his room.
This place he wasn't allowed tohave a TV in his room.
He had a little tablet that hecould get movies on, but for
some reason his tablet neverworked for movies.
He ate all of his meals in hiscell by himself.
(17:51):
He didn't even get to go to thecafeteria.
It was just awful, awful, awfulin my eyes.
The alternative also soundsawful to me.
So I don't know.
Pick the lesser of the evils.
So after four months there Idon't really know how it
happened he must have raised hishand and said I want to be
re-evaluated for competency.
And again this also this timelike I'm advocating more and
(18:12):
like talking to his lawyer andsaying I begged them not to move
him from a psychiatric hospital.
I begged them.
I said it's not right.
This is where he's gotten well.
He's about to go through a verystressful time.
He needs support.
Those supports are not going tobe in the jails.
You know, I was on the phonewith the director of clinical
services.
I was on the phone with thestate hospital.
(18:32):
I was just talking to anyone Icould talk to, because I know
that some people have been ableto stay in the psychiatric
hospital, but I don't know whatthe magic button is.
No one is telling me what themagic button is.
I know he was unhappy when hegot to the jail.
He asked me please just don'tmeddle too much, because this is
jail and I don't want to belike retaliated against because
you're being, you know, poke,poke, poke, poke, poke, poke,
(18:53):
poke.
I respected his wishes and Ireally like laid off.
The family engagement person atthe jail just kind of irked me.
Within the first week.
Anyways, when I emailed herasking her questions, she flat
out told me please don't emailme this much, I am only one
person, just call me.
And I was, like, can you saythat?
Like, don't email you.
So I talked to the director ofmedical services at the jail
(19:16):
once.
She was very nice but didn'treally get anywhere with it.
So he must have raised his handand got reevaluated, which meant
that he was sent back toBridgewater in September.
They took about, I think, 40days to evaluate him and then he
was deemed not competent again.
So he is committed toBridgewater again for up to six
(19:36):
months.
So he's there now.
I guess he's better, I guess.
But it's hard to stay likehopeful in these situations.
I mean, his life has been onhold for over a year and a half
and it's like you know you don'thave any end in sight.
The possibilities of what couldhappen are terrifying.
So is he in a good placementally?
Hopefully not.
(19:56):
Who would be?
Speaker 1 (19:58):
What's the legal end?
Look for you now.
What type of lawyer do you have?
Is it a specialty lawyer,public defender?
What kind of lawyer is helpingyou through this?
Speaker 2 (20:06):
Just a public defender.
I'm not sold on him, but Idon't really know what other
choice we have.
I mean, obviously he has gonethrough whatever hoops he needs
to go through because he's aprivate lawyer that I guess you
know.
Massachusetts contracts outtheir public defenders, I guess.
So he's gone through whateverhoops he has to go through to
have cases of this caliber.
So it's not that I don't thinkthat he's not knowledgeable in
(20:29):
law.
I'm just not convinced he'struly, truly knowledgeable in
what mental health means andserious mental illness means.
I think that you know, when weasked him, he's like well, every
homicide case basicallyinvolves mental health.
And I'm like okay, sure, you'reprobably right, but I don't get
the impression he's going tobat for him like 150%, like why
(20:51):
is he not fighting to keep himat Bridgewater and raise his
hand and explain why?
And I think he just doesn'ttruly get it.
He will just re.
When I bring it up to him, hejust regurgitates the law to me
and I was like you're notunderstanding me, like the
supports are not there.
And he's just like well, thejail has been deemed acceptable.
And I'm like okay, I hear you,I hear you.
(21:12):
So I've had some conversationswith him.
I feel like I'm in an odd place,like I try not to meddle too
much and I'm trying to still getmy brother's buy-in because I
can be part of the conversationswith him and the lawyer.
I think my brother, at thispoint, hasn't wanted me to be
and I think don't know if it'sbecause there are things that he
doesn't want me to see or hearor whatever.
And I'm not saying I need to bepart of, like the what happened
conversations, but like, maybesome of the strategy
(21:35):
conversations I could be part of, or like, even if he's deemed
competent, can a request be madeinto the judge for him to
remain where he's at while he'sawaiting trial?
I think that I'm I'm moreoutspoken than my brother, but
while he's awaiting trial, Ithink that I'm more outspoken
than my brother, but he alsodoesn't know anything.
I mean, he's been all thishappened, he's been thrown in
this hole, he doesn't haveaccess to Google, he doesn't
know, like, what his options are.
(21:55):
He's just knows what he knowsand which isn't a whole lot,
because this isn't our world.
So I'm still trying to convincehim that, like I, at least
should be part of thoseconversations.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
Sure, that makes perfect sense.
It's always good to have anadvocate on the outside.
Now, what about your sister?
Is she part of theconversations as well?
Speaker 2 (22:14):
She is to an extent, but I mean she has a kid and I
feel like I just have a littlebit more time on my hands to
deal with this and so I thinkshe plays the younger sibling
role very well.
Like somebody else will takecare of that.
I'm just so farther down theroad than she is.
You know, if she wants to knowsomething she'll ask, otherwise
(22:36):
she just kind of stays out of it.
Of course she keeps in touchwith him and talks on the phone
and writes letters and that sortof thing, but like in terms of
the advocacy and figuring it outand all of that, that's not
really her.
But like in terms of theadvocacy and figuring it out and
all of that, that's not reallyhard.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
Now, how is he compared to when he first went
into the hospitals and the jailsystem?
Is he better, worse?
How is his mindset now?
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, I think that they have
helped him.
However, I will say at thestate hospital he's at, one
issue I will say we're seeing isthat you know, he's had this
illness for 20 plus years.
So he's been through lots oftherapy and lots of whatever.
So I kind of liken it to aschool system.
Like he done kindergarten levelwork, he's done first grade
(23:19):
level work and I feel like thestate hospital really only goes
up to like grade three and he'smore like a seventh, eighth
grade level.
So in terms of the therapy therehe's quite frankly bored.
It's hard for him to engagewith it because and I guess they
, you know, they play to thelowest common denominator and so
some of the denominators arepretty low.
To a certain extent they aren'table to service him at the
(23:41):
level that I think he probablyneeds to be serviced at at this
point.
But it's far better than whathe would get in jail, which
would be nothing needs to beserviced at at this point, but
it's far better than what hewould get in jail, which would
be nothing.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
Well, at least that's a good thing.
Now, what would you like totell our listeners that you
think is very important?
That they need to know aboutthe situations you're going
through, so if anyone else isgoing through the same situation
, it could help them a little.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
Well, I mean, I think in hindsight, I wish that I
kind of knew all this beforeyou're in the middle of the
crisis.
So learn everything you canbefore there's a crisis
happening, because it's reallyhard to learn on the go.
In Massachusetts, specifically,we're missing a key tool in our
toolbox, which is AOT theassisted outpatient therapy, to
(24:28):
allow for more involuntary andthe courts to be involved in
more treatment plans that arefollowed by the courts, because
having these people go to thesehospitals, whether even if it's
for three days, two weeks orwhatever I mean I think he got
released with a 30-day supply ofmedication and was like told
good luck I mean that's notgoing to help anybody.
There needs to be a bettersystematic care plan in place.
(24:48):
So I guess to other familymembers I would say you know,
just educate yourself as much asyou can, because you never know
when you're going to might needthat need to know what to do.
Like those behavioral helplines.
While they are certainly a toolin the toolbox when you're
dealing with someone who's inpsychosis and well past
understanding that they're sick,you know our senators and
(25:11):
lawyers need to realize thatthose helplines fit a certain
segment.
There's another segmentafterward that still needs help,
and they need help, just likesomebody with Alzheimer's.
You know, you find your grandmawalking outside in her pajamas
and no slippers on.
You're going to do something.
You're going to tell them youcannot be outside.
You're going to involuntarilytake them inside.
(25:33):
The same should be true ofsomeone that's in psychosis.
They're human beings, you know,and their brains are flexing,
and not flexing correctly, andthey just need some support and
not to be left like.
Good luck, you know.
Hope it works out for you.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
Yes, absolutely.
And when you get thrown into it, sometimes it can seem like it
just happened overnight when itdidn't.
But it can be the big unknownand you just don't know what to
do.
It can be so overwhelming tothe families and the loved ones
that's trying to help them.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
Yes, agreed, very overwhelming, Very very
overwhelming.
I don't know if he would haveagreed but maybe before all this
had happened just having myselfor my sister be healthcare
proxy, because most doctors andhospitals protect themselves by
HIPAA Sorry, hipaa, I can't doit and they hide behind the
HIPAA curtain.
So HIPAA needs to be rewritten,and I've heard that it has been.
I guess we're going to probablyneed to educate everyone that
(26:33):
has been rewritten or rewarded alittle bit to better help
people in situations like my own.
So if someone's in psychosis ornot mentally, well, then yes,
you can talk to a family memberor the appropriate person
regarding their care.
Then really the families arethe ones on the front lines.
These doctors need to partnerwith us and realize that, like
we know our loved ones best,we're not just saying these
(26:54):
things to be, you know, annoying, like we know them better than
anyone.
So just partner with us andhelping them, because together
we can like get this person onthe right path.
People with serious mentalillness are able to live normal
lives.
They just need help getting upwhen they fall, that's all.
Speaker 1 (27:12):
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, this has been great Goodconversation, good information.
Thanks for coming on.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
Yeah, no problem, I appreciate you talking to me and
thanks for getting the word out.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
Absolutely.
It's been a pleasure.
Thanks again, thanks again.
(27:51):
Tell us their story, send themto TonyMantorcom contact, then
they can give us theirinformation so one day they may
be a guest on our show.
One more thing we ask telleveryone everywhere about why
Not Me, the world, theconversations we're having and
the inspiration our guests giveto everyone everywhere that you
are not alone in this world.
Welcome to why Not Me ?
The World Podcast, hosted byTony Mantor, broadcasting from
Music City, usa, nashville,tennessee.
Join us as our guests tell ustheir stories.
Some will make you laugh, somewill make you cry.
Their stories Some will makeyou laugh, some will make you
(00:30):
cry.
Real life people who willinspire and show that you are
not alone in this world.
Hopefully, you gain moreawareness, acceptance and a
better understanding for autismAround the World.
Hi, I'm Tony Mantor.
(00:52):
Welcome to why Not Me?
The World Humanity OverHandcuffs the Silent Crisis
special event.
Today we're joined by JessicaFerguson, who will share the
deeply personal story of herbrother's struggle with mental
illness.
She'll take us through thechallenges of supporting him,
the events and circumstancesthat ultimately led to his
(01:12):
incarceration, and the family'songoing efforts to advocate for
mental health awareness andreform.
Thanks for coming on.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Yeah, no problem, no problem.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Can you give us a little background and what led
your journey to supportingmental illness?
Speaker 2 (01:29):
So I have a sibling who has severe mental illness
and at the beginning of 2023,he's been very he'd been with
his treatment for the last.
He's had it for 20 years, but Imean so the last 10 years he's
been stable and fine.
In the beginning of 2023, westarted to notice some changes
(01:49):
going on.
He was not quite himself andthen just kind of navigating the
system and, you know, trying toget him help, you know, the
next three to four or fivemonths or so, and just
constantly being, you know, involuntary hospitalizations for
72 hours and left back outwithout any kind of involvement
of the family or any care planput in place.
Even though we're begging,please keep him.
(02:11):
He's just not right.
And truthfully, you know, wewere like, big question,
massachusetts is always are theya harm to themselves or others?
And of course, at the time, I'mlike, of course I'm going to
answer honestly, like no, I'mnot afraid of him or anything.
I mean, if anything, at thattime I was probably more afraid
something was going to happen tohim, like he was going to get
hit by a car or something likethat, like he wouldn't be paying
attention and he had oddbehaviors.
(02:33):
At that point he was no walkingaround barefoot.
So like I was fearing, like ishe going to step on a nail or
something like that?
I don't know, but anyways.
So go through that wholeprocess back and forth, back and
forth, get slid out.
10 days after his thirdhospitalization, in three or
four months, he's being accusedof a triple homicide.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
Wow.
So what's happening now?
Moving forward.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
I couldn't tell you what happened that day, if he
did it or not, or all I can sayat this point is that he is
accused of it.
The silver lining is nowthey've given him help the past
year.
So maybe if they'd done all ofthat back, when we were
screaming for them to do it, hewouldn't have even been in a
position, meaning he would havebeen in a hospital to be accused
(03:14):
of anything.
So I think that it's likeMassachusetts and again I can
only speak for Massachusettsalmost the only way to get them
help is for them to get caughtdoing something or in trouble
for doing something.
Then they're finally like ohwell, yes, he needs to be
hospitalized.
Well, yes, he actually neededthat months ago, and when I told
you that, he didn't want tolisten.
(03:34):
So that's kind of the shortversion of my story.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
That's a very tough situation to be in with a
sibling.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
Just looking back on everything, I mean there's just
so much leading up to it.
Like, honestly, I didn't know.
Like I'm the older sister, Imean some people, some family
members, are like the parentsand they've been in it forever.
Like my relationship with mysibling was.
I was his sibling.
Seven years ago my motherpassed away, so I'm the oldest
sibling, so I guess I'm takingon that role and I was just
learning, as I go Firsthospitalization I think I
(04:04):
thought, oh, they let him out.
Doctors are the experts, so hemust be fine, he's good.
Of course they wouldn't let himout.
He called me on a Wednesday inthe middle of the day come pick
me up.
Oh, okay, they're just lettingyou out.
I guess that's how it works,because that was my experience
with hospitals at that point.
I mean, I've gottencolonoscopies before and they
won't let me drive myself homeor let alone leave the office
(04:25):
without someone physicallycoming up.
You cannot take a taxi, youcannot take an Uber.
They're letting my brother out.
Okay, they know, the doctorsare the experts, right?
And that's when I started torealize you know, he gets home
and my sister she's like, yeah,he's not okay.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
So what's his age now ?
Speaker 2 (04:46):
He is.
Let me do some math here 42right now.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Okay, 42.
So when did this all start?
Speaker 2 (04:53):
This happened in 2023 .
So he was 41.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
What were some of the events and developments that
led you to believe that heneeded help?
Speaker 2 (05:01):
The word my sister and I would use to another.
He's just off.
And then the final catalyst forus to call our mobile crisis
unit was she called me at like 7am on a Saturday morning.
It was like he's takeneverything out of his room Many
years ago.
He's had other episodes, youknow again this point had been
about a decade ago.
He kind of gone through thislike purging of all of his
(05:23):
things perfectly good things,there's nothing wrong with them
and so he completely emptied outhis entire bedroom and was, you
know, taking mattresses outsideand just desks everything out
of his room.
And when we asked him what he'sdoing he's on winter cleaning.
That point I said he was stillat a point where he was
(05:44):
agreeable.
I said you know, why don't wecall your care team and see,
just have someone come out andtalk to you.
And he was fine with that.
In Massachusetts you have themobile crisis unit to come out.
The patient has to agree to it.
Everything in Massachusetts isvery voluntary.
Like they won't let you.
There's not a whole lot of likeinvoluntary, so you have to
have their buy-in point.
(06:05):
Sure they can come, like youknow he's very agreeable at this
point.
And the mobile crisis unitclinician came out.
At that point it wasn't liketake him away, or I wasn't
saying take him away, I was likesomeone just evaluate him.
So they were going to evaluatehim.
Well, when the clinician gotthere, he kind of was like I'm
not ready to talk to them, tookhis time and then we kind of
left him out, gave him somespace, left him outside for
about five minutes and once wewent outside to go get him he
was gone.
And so then it turned into thislike well, where is he?
(06:26):
Where is he?
When the clinician saw thatbehavior, the clinician made the
determination that he needs togo to.
Based on what I'm seeing, thelittle I've seen, he needs to go
and be hospitalized.
So the clinician is the personthat pink slipped him.
That's what started it.
And then, even after that firsthospitalization, he was still at
a point mentally where he wasagreeable or at least playing
(06:46):
the game.
And you know, he allowed us tobe part of the conversations
with his clinician and hisprescriber.
We got on Zoom calls with himand his prescriber and he was,
you know, willing for us to havethis be part of the
conversation.
Meanwhile I'm also emailing theclinician because they're
seeing him for 45 minutes on aTuesday and I'm seeing him all
(07:06):
week and so I'm emailing themand being like, just so you know
, this is what we're seeing,we're still concerned, we don't
think something's right.
And they were kind of like OK,yeah, ok.
And then it got to the point byMarch that he had determined my
brother had said must have toldthe clinician, you can no
(07:29):
longer speak to them.
So then they were like we hearyou, but unfortunately I am not
able to speak to you about himany longer.
So at that point he kind of cutus off.
And that's when it was steadydecline down.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
So after that happened, when did you get
involved again and trying to getsome say on what needed to be
done, moving forward?
Speaker 2 (07:43):
you know, march.
I kind of like backed off andmy younger sister was saying you
know, he's annoyed at you beingpestering and you know meddling
.
So I kind of backed off.
I was like, all right, I'mgoing to give him some space,
like and again, I'm not amedical, mental health expert.
I had no idea how to likehandle this.
I'm just trying to take my bestguess at things.
I'm calling we have abehavioral health fund.
(08:04):
I'm calling them and they'retelling me, oh, take him to this
walk-in clinic, they canobserve him.
I'm like I don't think he'sgoing to go for that At this
point.
He's like turned off by anythingthat I have to say, like I'm
just a thorn in his side.
I suggested to him as suspectedno, a friend of his suggested
to him no.
So he kind of just I would sayby April, may, we're like just
(08:27):
kind of like standing by, beinglike somebody pick him up and
take him to the hospital again,like I don't know what else to
do, because it is hard to belike the one to pick up the
phone and be like take mybrother to the hospital.
I mean, you don't want to bethe bad guy or anything like
that.
And at that point, like alsolike I had no idea what a Rogers
guardianship was or what kindof options there were other than
this 800 behavioral health linethat I've heard about and this
(08:51):
mobile crisis unit that I hadalready called once before, and
at this point they had told methat he needs to agree to it.
So I'm like he's not going toagree to it, so why am I going
to bother calling them again?
So in May, the police ended uppicking him up and taking him to
the hospital on their own.
I don't know exactly whathappened, but there was some
incident.
We were like, oh, thank God,and it was kind of near Memorial
(09:12):
Day weekend or so he was therea little bit longer than just
the three days I think it had todo with like weekends don't
count, and then you had aholiday in there, I think
something to that effect, andagain, I'm not exactly sure.
So I ended up being there alittle bit longer.
I didn't have any directconversations with anyone at
that hospital stay.
Again, at that point I was kindof like I don't know what to do
(09:34):
, like he's bothered by me.
His friend and my sister wereprobably more, a little bit more
involved with that hospitalstay, and by a little bit more.
I mean, maybe there was like aphone call, but again they
released him, sent him home inan Uber.
My sister had talked to them,but they didn't tell her like,
oh, this is the care plan.
Oh, do you want to come pickhim up?
There was nothing.
It was just like here's yourvoucher for an Uber ride to
(09:57):
wherever you want.
Bye.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
So what happened at that point?
Was there any change?
Speaker 2 (10:02):
Again he comes home and we're all like yeah, he's
not OK, like no, and at thispoint he's quit his job.
He had a full-time job and thenhad also worked part-time.
After his first hospitalizationhe quit his full-time job
Sometime in the end of May, soprobably after the second
hospitalization he quit hispart-time job.
So he's not working.
(10:23):
He has no money Because at thispoint, like any money he could
get his hands on, it was spentwithin before it even hit his
pocket.
And so by June 11th I wasdriving by his house and his
stuff is outside.
Again he brought everythingoutside of his room.
After the first time I wentlike, retrieved everything out
from the garage and put it inwherever he put it around the
(10:44):
house.
I retrieved it all.
He had taken his mattress backoutside.
Some of my belongings areoutside and I'm like one,
irritated that my stuff'soutside and like what is he
doing?
And I was like that's it I'mcalling, like this is ridiculous
.
I called 911 and told them likelisten, please come, because
again, that's what I thought youdid.
I didn't know it was eithermobile crisis or the police, I
(11:05):
don't know.
So they came, he disappeared,they looked for him and they got
him again and they brought himback to the same hospital.
He went to the second time.
Again, there was very littlecommunication with the family
and then we hadn't heardanything.
And so I called like hey, I'mjust calling to see what's going
on.
I haven't heard anything andthey're like, yeah, we're
(11:25):
releasing him today.
I'm like I'm sorry, what?
Like yeah, we're releasing him.
I was like, um, no, no, this isand I go into this whole spiel
about this is the third time.
You know, whatever months we'vealready done this 72 hour whole
thing.
He needs to stay longer.
Like blah, blah, blah, blah.
And they're like, yeah, this isthe third time in a hospital.
(11:47):
Like I don't understand.
And they're like, well, let mesee what we can do.
And I think you know, listen,I've worked at customer service.
They're just trying to talk meoff the ledge.
So they got me off the phonefor five minutes.
Call me back.
And they're like yeah, wetalked to the doctor.
There's, unfortunately, wecan't, can't do anything.
If you want to file with thecourts, you can, but you have to
(12:09):
get a lawyer.
I don't know anything aboutthis.
You're telling me this at thefinal hour, that this is my
option.
Like, okay, thanks for nothing.
I don't know.
So I was like I don't even knowwhat to do with it.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
I don't even know what you're saying means.
So, with all this happening,not knowing what to do, what
were the next steps for you?
Speaker 2 (12:28):
And so then my sister calls.
My sister lives with him withher child, who's young,
elementary school age, beggingthem.
Please, like don't bring himhome.
Of course is he a danger tohimself or others.
And she's like I mean he'sdoing things that could be
dangerous.
You know he's bringing tikitorches into our house, he's
leaving pots on our stove andjust forgetting about them and
(12:52):
you know they're burning, likeso, yes, something could happen.
They're like, yeah, no, thatthere's nothing we can do.
We're so sorry.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
Wow, so this is the third time that he's been in
this type of situation.
What were some of the nextsteps that you took to try and
help him?
Speaker 2 (13:07):
I think I was just kind of calling this behavioral
helpline.
All they were telling me was togo to these clinics.
I was like, well, that's not anoption and I think that I just
was at a loss.
I didn't know what to do atthis point.
Hadn't really been connected.
I tried calling at some pointNAMI.
I heard they had a family tofamily class, but I had missed
the start of it because I didn'tget started in March.
(13:28):
So I didn't get any informationthat way and I really didn't
hadn't dug into NAMI and all thedifferent resources that they
do have.
Again, I'm learning this likemid crisis, in the midst of
everything.
I'm working full time.
I have my own life, like Idon't know.
So was I doing anythingprofound at that point?
Probably not.
(13:49):
But again, I didn't necessarilythink that.
Like I wasn't afraid that hewas going to hurt himself.
Like I said, more of a had oddbehavior.
You know, like again walkingaround barefoot or, you know,
going to open houses for milliondollar homes.
He doesn't have a penny to hisname, like that.
But telling me.
(14:09):
But then telling me, jess, Ithink I found the one.
This is the house, this isgoing to be the house, and I'm
like, just you know, obviouslynot in reality.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
So when he got out and ultimately he was accused,
mm-hmm.
So what happened then?
Now you're dealing with thelegal system.
That's a completely differentsystem than dealing with the
hospitals psychiatric hospital.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
When he was accused, police took him to the hospital
because they were like, oh, heneeds to be hospitalized.
And from the hospital he wasnot there for 72 hours.
(14:54):
They took him to jail.
Then, from jail he was actingpsychotic and they're like we
can't do this.
This is not us.
Within 24 to 40 hours of beingin jail he's sent to the state
psychiatric hospital, which, formen, is run by the Department
of Corrections.
It's not run by our Departmentof Mental Health.
The Department of Correctionshires a contractor to handle the
(15:15):
medical needs.
So he was sent there and he wasthere for 11, almost 12 months.
He was found not competent tostand trial for the first 11 or
so months.
So he was receiving care.
I mean he was medical compliant.
Like he was, you know, notcompetent to stand trial.
(15:36):
It doesn't really mean like areyou acting crazy, it's just can
you aid in your defense?
He was found not competent butat this point we're able to
visit with him, we'll have mealswith him.
Like visitation Over time gotmuch more closer to his baseline
, much more recognizable as whowe know.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
That sounds a little better.
So how did that work out andwhat was the journey like from
that point?
Speaker 2 (16:00):
He was then found confident to stand trial, which
then means oh, back to jail foryou, while they claim there's
mental health care there.
The mental health care for himconsisted of, once a week a
clinician stopped by his cellfor 10 to 15 minutes and that
was it, and he got hismedication.
Every day he came in.
There's an intake unit that yougo into the intake unit for 72
(16:21):
hours so they can observe you,especially when you're coming
from a psychiatric hospital.
So he was in a cell by himselffor the first 72 hours.
It was very difficult tounderstand.
Like the prison, the actualjail operates completely
different than the psychiatrichospital.
The psychiatric hospital, again, is overseen by the Department
of Corrections.
The jail is overseen by thecounty sheriff department.
(16:43):
So, figuring out this whole newsystem, how things work, all
these things, the cliniciantalks to him and says you know,
here are your options of whereto go from this intake unit, we
have a mental health unit thatyou can go to.
The mental health unit is dormstyle one big room, 40, some odd
beds, everyone living in thesame space.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
So how did that work out from there?
Speaker 2 (17:07):
Depending on your personality, that sounds
wonderful or that sounds awful.
For his personality that soundsawful he's like no, our
personalities are very differentand that sounds awful to me.
So it was either that or staywhere he's at in this room by
himself.
So he was like I'm all set, I'mgoing to stay by myself, which
meant he was very isolated, verylike, not healthy for anybody,
(17:29):
any human being Like.
He didn't have interactionswith anyone.
He was in a cell by himselfessentially 24 hours a day,
whereas before at thepsychiatric hospital he could
walk around.
There was TV he could.
He had a TV in his room.
This place he wasn't allowed tohave a TV in his room.
He had a little tablet that hecould get movies on, but for
some reason his tablet neverworked for movies.
He ate all of his meals in hiscell by himself.
(17:51):
He didn't even get to go to thecafeteria.
It was just awful, awful, awfulin my eyes.
The alternative also soundsawful to me.
So I don't know.
Pick the lesser of the evils.
So after four months there Idon't really know how it
happened he must have raised hishand and said I want to be
re-evaluated for competency.
And again this also this timelike I'm advocating more and
(18:12):
like talking to his lawyer andsaying I begged them not to move
him from a psychiatric hospital.
I begged them.
I said it's not right.
This is where he's gotten well.
He's about to go through a verystressful time.
He needs support.
Those supports are not going tobe in the jails.
You know, I was on the phonewith the director of clinical
services.
I was on the phone with thestate hospital.
(18:32):
I was just talking to anyone Icould talk to, because I know
that some people have been ableto stay in the psychiatric
hospital, but I don't know whatthe magic button is.
No one is telling me what themagic button is.
I know he was unhappy when hegot to the jail.
He asked me please just don'tmeddle too much, because this is
jail and I don't want to belike retaliated against because
you're being, you know, poke,poke, poke, poke, poke, poke,
(18:53):
poke.
I respected his wishes and Ireally like laid off.
The family engagement person atthe jail just kind of irked me.
Within the first week.
Anyways, when I emailed herasking her questions, she flat
out told me please don't emailme this much, I am only one
person, just call me.
And I was, like, can you saythat?
Like, don't email you.
So I talked to the director ofmedical services at the jail
(19:16):
once.
She was very nice but didn'treally get anywhere with it.
So he must have raised his handand got reevaluated, which meant
that he was sent back toBridgewater in September.
They took about, I think, 40days to evaluate him and then he
was deemed not competent again.
So he is committed toBridgewater again for up to six
(19:36):
months.
So he's there now.
I guess he's better, I guess.
But it's hard to stay likehopeful in these situations.
I mean, his life has been onhold for over a year and a half
and it's like you know you don'thave any end in sight.
The possibilities of what couldhappen are terrifying.
So is he in a good placementally?
Hopefully not.
(19:56):
Who would be?
Speaker 1 (19:58):
What's the legal end?
Look for you now.
What type of lawyer do you have?
Is it a specialty lawyer,public defender?
What kind of lawyer is helpingyou through this?
Speaker 2 (20:06):
Just a public defender.
I'm not sold on him, but Idon't really know what other
choice we have.
I mean, obviously he has gonethrough whatever hoops he needs
to go through because he's aprivate lawyer that I guess you
know.
Massachusetts contracts outtheir public defenders, I guess.
So he's gone through whateverhoops he has to go through to
have cases of this caliber.
So it's not that I don't thinkthat he's not knowledgeable in
(20:29):
law.
I'm just not convinced he'struly, truly knowledgeable in
what mental health means andserious mental illness means.
I think that you know, when weasked him, he's like well, every
homicide case basicallyinvolves mental health.
And I'm like okay, sure, you'reprobably right, but I don't get
the impression he's going tobat for him like 150%, like why
(20:51):
is he not fighting to keep himat Bridgewater and raise his
hand and explain why?
And I think he just doesn'ttruly get it.
He will just re.
When I bring it up to him, hejust regurgitates the law to me
and I was like you're notunderstanding me, like the
supports are not there.
And he's just like well, thejail has been deemed acceptable.
And I'm like okay, I hear you,I hear you.
(21:12):
So I've had some conversationswith him.
I feel like I'm in an odd place,like I try not to meddle too
much and I'm trying to still getmy brother's buy-in because I
can be part of the conversationswith him and the lawyer.
I think my brother, at thispoint, hasn't wanted me to be
and I think don't know if it'sbecause there are things that he
doesn't want me to see or hearor whatever.
And I'm not saying I need to bepart of, like the what happened
conversations, but like, maybesome of the strategy
(21:35):
conversations I could be part of, or like, even if he's deemed
competent, can a request be madeinto the judge for him to
remain where he's at while he'sawaiting trial?
I think that I'm I'm moreoutspoken than my brother, but
while he's awaiting trial, Ithink that I'm more outspoken
than my brother, but he alsodoesn't know anything.
I mean, he's been all thishappened, he's been thrown in
this hole, he doesn't haveaccess to Google, he doesn't
know, like, what his options are.
(21:55):
He's just knows what he knowsand which isn't a whole lot,
because this isn't our world.
So I'm still trying to convincehim that, like I, at least
should be part of thoseconversations.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
Sure, that makes perfect sense.
It's always good to have anadvocate on the outside.
Now, what about your sister?
Is she part of theconversations as well?
Speaker 2 (22:14):
She is to an extent, but I mean she has a kid and I
feel like I just have a littlebit more time on my hands to
deal with this and so I thinkshe plays the younger sibling
role very well.
Like somebody else will takecare of that.
I'm just so farther down theroad than she is.
You know, if she wants to knowsomething she'll ask, otherwise
(22:36):
she just kind of stays out of it.
Of course she keeps in touchwith him and talks on the phone
and writes letters and that sortof thing, but like in terms of
the advocacy and figuring it outand all of that, that's not
really her.
But like in terms of theadvocacy and figuring it out and
all of that, that's not reallyhard.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
Now, how is he compared to when he first went
into the hospitals and the jailsystem?
Is he better, worse?
How is his mindset now?
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, I think that they have
helped him.
However, I will say at thestate hospital he's at, one
issue I will say we're seeing isthat you know, he's had this
illness for 20 plus years.
So he's been through lots oftherapy and lots of whatever.
So I kind of liken it to aschool system.
Like he done kindergarten levelwork, he's done first grade
(23:19):
level work and I feel like thestate hospital really only goes
up to like grade three and he'smore like a seventh, eighth
grade level.
So in terms of the therapy therehe's quite frankly bored.
It's hard for him to engagewith it because and I guess they
, you know, they play to thelowest common denominator and so
some of the denominators arepretty low.
To a certain extent they aren'table to service him at the
(23:41):
level that I think he probablyneeds to be serviced at at this
point.
But it's far better than whathe would get in jail, which
would be nothing needs to beserviced at at this point, but
it's far better than what hewould get in jail, which would
be nothing.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
Well, at least that's a good thing.
Now, what would you like totell our listeners that you
think is very important?
That they need to know aboutthe situations you're going
through, so if anyone else isgoing through the same situation
, it could help them a little.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
Well, I mean, I think in hindsight, I wish that I
kind of knew all this beforeyou're in the middle of the
crisis.
So learn everything you canbefore there's a crisis
happening, because it's reallyhard to learn on the go.
In Massachusetts, specifically,we're missing a key tool in our
toolbox, which is AOT theassisted outpatient therapy, to
(24:28):
allow for more involuntary andthe courts to be involved in
more treatment plans that arefollowed by the courts, because
having these people go to thesehospitals, whether even if it's
for three days, two weeks orwhatever I mean I think he got
released with a 30-day supply ofmedication and was like told
good luck I mean that's notgoing to help anybody.
There needs to be a bettersystematic care plan in place.
(24:48):
So I guess to other familymembers I would say you know,
just educate yourself as much asyou can, because you never know
when you're going to might needthat need to know what to do.
Like those behavioral helplines.
While they are certainly a toolin the toolbox when you're
dealing with someone who's inpsychosis and well past
understanding that they're sick,you know our senators and
(25:11):
lawyers need to realize thatthose helplines fit a certain
segment.
There's another segmentafterward that still needs help,
and they need help, just likesomebody with Alzheimer's.
You know, you find your grandmawalking outside in her pajamas
and no slippers on.
You're going to do something.
You're going to tell them youcannot be outside.
You're going to involuntarilytake them inside.
(25:33):
The same should be true ofsomeone that's in psychosis.
They're human beings, you know,and their brains are flexing,
and not flexing correctly, andthey just need some support and
not to be left like.
Good luck, you know.
Hope it works out for you.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
Yes, absolutely.
And when you get thrown into it, sometimes it can seem like it
just happened overnight when itdidn't.
But it can be the big unknownand you just don't know what to
do.
It can be so overwhelming tothe families and the loved ones
that's trying to help them.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
Yes, agreed, very overwhelming, Very very
overwhelming.
I don't know if he would haveagreed but maybe before all this
had happened just having myselfor my sister be healthcare
proxy, because most doctors andhospitals protect themselves by
HIPAA Sorry, hipaa, I can't doit and they hide behind the
HIPAA curtain.
So HIPAA needs to be rewritten,and I've heard that it has been.
I guess we're going to probablyneed to educate everyone that
(26:33):
has been rewritten or rewarded alittle bit to better help
people in situations like my own.
So if someone's in psychosis ornot mentally, well, then yes,
you can talk to a family memberor the appropriate person
regarding their care.
Then really the families arethe ones on the front lines.
These doctors need to partnerwith us and realize that, like
we know our loved ones best,we're not just saying these
(26:54):
things to be, you know, annoying, like we know them better than
anyone.
So just partner with us andhelping them, because together
we can like get this person onthe right path.
People with serious mentalillness are able to live normal
lives.
They just need help getting upwhen they fall, that's all.
Speaker 1 (27:12):
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, this has been great Goodconversation, good information.
Thanks for coming on.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
Yeah, no problem, I appreciate you talking to me and
thanks for getting the word out.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
Absolutely.
It's been a pleasure.
Thanks again, thanks again.
(27:51):
Tell us their story, send themto TonyMantorcom contact, then
they can give us theirinformation so one day they may
be a guest on our show.
One more thing we ask telleveryone everywhere about why
Not Me, the world, theconversations we're having and
the inspiration our guests giveto everyone everywhere that you
are not alone in this world.
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