April 15, 2025 • 24 mins
John Puls, a psychotherapist specializing in forensic work, shares critical insights on navigating the intersection of autism, mental health, and the criminal justice system.
He draws on his extensive experience working with individuals in crisis to offer practical guidance for families and caregivers.
• Working as a psychotherapist with both autistic individuals and those with severe mental health issues
• Providing forensic services including testifying for involuntary commitment cases and mitigation for reduced sentencing
• Crisis Intervention Trained (CIT) officers and Service Population Advocates as promising but limited resources
• Finding qualified legal representation that understands autism and mental health issues
• Advocating with prosecutors and judges to focus on treatment rather than punishment
• Writing personalized letters to judges explaining family support and treatment plans
• Seeking local mobile crisis teams instead of calling law enforcement when possible
• Connecting with support groups to learn from other families' experiences navigating the system
• Properly communicating needs to first responders to avoid unnecessary arrests
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to why Not Me ?
The World Podcast, hosted byTony Mantor, Broadcasting from
Music City, USA, Nashville,Tennessee.
Join us as our guests tell ustheir stories.
Some will make you laugh, somewill make you cry.
Us their stories.
(00:28):
Some will make you laugh, somewill make you cry.
Real life people who willinspire and show that you are
not alone in this world.
Hopefully, you gain moreawareness, acceptance and a
(00:52):
better understanding for autismaround the world.
Hi, I'm Tony Mantor.
Welcome to why Not Me?
The World Humanity OverHandcuffs the Silent Crisis
special event.
Joining us today is John Poles,a psychotherapist who is a
licensed clinical social workerand a master certified addiction
professional.
He'll be sharing his journey ofhow he helps others in need.
It's a pleasure to have himhere today.
Thanks for coming on, Of course.
(01:13):
Thanks for having me.
Oh, it's my pleasure If youwould give us a little insight
on what you do, Sure, sure.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Absolutely so.
I'm a I do a few differentthings.
I'm a psychotherapist by trade,right, so I'm a licensed
clinical social worker and amaster certified addiction
professional.
I really started working in thefield, I would say, in about
2013, originally as like asupport staff or what we would
call like a behavioral healthtechnician and inpatient units,
and then I went back to school.
(01:41):
One of my first jobs was myundergraduate was actually at
South County Mental HealthCenter, which is a crisis
stabilization unit.
So I worked with folks withreally severe and persistent
mental health issues, eitherpsychotic disorders, having
active suicidal or homicidalthoughts and gestures and then
(02:01):
so I started working with peoplein crisis, basically, and a lot
of families in crisis.
From that point, I worked in aresidential tool diagnosis unit
for addiction and mental healthand I was again working with a
lot of families and people incrisis, and both times I saw a
really fractured system, both inthe community mental health
standpoint, which was nonprofit,state funded, and then then,
(02:24):
even in what would be considereda nicer kind of for-profit
addiction treatment facility,was still fraught with so many
issues.
And then I eventually went intoprivate practice and so now
predominantly what I do is Iwork with people with more
severe mental health issues,some of which are autistic, and
then I also consult withfamilies in terms of trying to
(02:47):
help them find placements andthings like that.
And then I have a small portionof my practice is actually
doing forensic work as well withthe legal system.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
Okay, let's expand a little bit on your forensic work
.
When people hear the wordforensic, I'm sure they have
different ideas of what it couldbe.
It's probably quite differentfrom what they think it is to
what it actually is.
Could you expand on that?
Speaker 2 (03:09):
First I'll start with saying that I think the
assumption is that socialworkers or clinical social
workers don't do forensic workand it's reserved for
psychiatrists and psychologists.
But I was pleased to knowthat's not the case For me.
What it looks like is that Itestify and do assessments for
people meeting criteria fordifferent types of involuntary
commitment.
So that could be under peoplebeing sectioned, or in Florida
(03:32):
it's called like a Baker Act.
And then also we have a uniquelaw in Florida called the
Marchman Act, which is actuallyinvoluntary treatment for
substance use disorder, which isoften co-occurring a lot of
mental health issues.
And then I also do what's calledmitigation work.
Basically, if somebody isconvicted of some type of crime,
becomes involved in thecriminal justice system, I can
(03:54):
come in and do an assessment andtestify and advocate for
reduced sentencing based on thisperson's mental health, their
trauma history, what they'vegone through as a kid, their
socioeconomic status the listgoes on contributing factors
that lead people to wind up inthe criminal justice system.
The last part of it that I doas well is as I'm sure many
(04:14):
families have experienced thathave loved ones with mental
illness and is that they wind upin inpatient units,
subsequently receive subpar careand monitoring.
So I'll come in and testify tostandard of care for wrongful
death cases involving mentalhealth facilities and addiction
treatment facilities.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
I'm intrigued about the legal side of it.
Most people that I know who donot have autism or mental health
in their family.
They just don't understand it.
They don't know how theautistic brain works.
They also don't understand it.
They don't know how theautistic brain works.
They also don't understand howthose with mental illness, how
their brains work either.
They don't realize that manyautistic people look at things
(04:55):
in a different view than they do, so when they wind up on the
wrong side of the law.
It's my understanding that manyof those in the legal system
have the same challenges.
They don't understand autisticpeople or those with mental
health.
So my question is how do youaddress that?
Speaker 2 (05:15):
So not easy, Although a lot of people don't
understand it.
What I found and not to be toocynical, but what I found as far
as the related criminal justicesystem, various proceedings is
that not only do they notunderstand it, they're not
really making an attempt tounderstand it.
Part of what my role is ineither mitigation work or
working with people that havebeen involved in the criminal
justice system, is reallypsychoeducation, like explaining
(05:36):
that this is what this personwas experiencing at the time.
I'll give you a very quickexample.
This was several years ago.
My family wouldn't mind mebringing this up, but I had a
patient that was in a mentalhealth facility that was
diagnosed with I believe it wasschizophrenia or schizoaffective
disorder, and they were giventhe wrong medication, which is
known to cause agitation, totreat it and they punched a
(05:57):
staff member, which subsequentlyled to their arrest and going
to the county jail, where theyreceived no treatment of course,
and going to the county jail,where they received no treatment
of course, and through a lot oftired advocacy from both their
guardian and myself, we wereable to transfer to the proper
program.
But I think all the criminaljustice would see is hey, this
person assaulted someone.
This person is a danger to thecommunity and they need to be
(06:19):
withheld, but when, in reality,they're just not being properly
treated and there's a lack ofunderstanding, and certainly
once you're to the point ofbeing involved in the criminal
justice system and you'reincarcerated, either in jail or
prison.
Some places are doing it alittle better in terms of
providing mental health care,but the care that they receive
is completely inadequate, veryinadequate.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
So this goes deeper than just the legal system,
because the first respondersthat are the ones that see them
out in the streets.
I've had the pleasure oftalking with several different
people that work between theautistic community and the first
responders.
A lot of people will throwdarts at the police, putting the
blame on them, when they don'trealize they've only got seconds
(07:01):
sometimes to make a decisionwhether a person is going to be
trying to hurt themselves ortrying to hurt someone else.
How do we change that so thatthe first response, hopefully,
is the last response and itdoesn't wind up going past that?
Speaker 2 (07:18):
Absolutely no.
That's a great point, and Ithink that law enforcement
officers are often an easytarget.
Oh well, the law enforcementdid this, police did this, and
they are in very difficultsituations and they have seconds
to act.
I guess what I would respond tothat, as far as what we can do,
is look at some of what'salready being done that I
believe is effective, but it'sdone on a very small scale and
(07:40):
it's kind of fractured and it'snot widely adapted.
In Palm Beach County, forexample, we have what are called
CIT officers, so crisisintervention trained officers.
They receive specific trainingon how to address and work with
somebody that is in supermentaldistress or may have autism, in
order to properly de-escalateand handle it, and you can
(08:02):
actually, in terms of calling911, you can actually request
for a CIT officer to respond.
However, there's a limitedamount Depending on the
situation.
They may not be able to sendsomebody out.
We also have something indifferent areas in South Florida
called service populationadvocates, and so those are
(08:23):
actually members of the policedepartment.
They're paid by the localmunicipality police department.
They have a badge that saysthey're a part of the police
department, but they're alsolicensed mental health
counselors or licensed clinicalsocial workers and they'll
actually respond in lieu of alaw enforcement officer.
Now that's effective, but it'sdone on a very small scale.
What I would recommend is thatthere's one thing for a
(08:45):
specialized CIT-trained officerto respond.
It's a whole other thing tohave a fleet of officers that
can receive some training atleast and have some education,
because I have a neighbor whohas something as autism and she
has a lot of stickers on her carthat basically to inform
anybody that could beapproaching the car police or
(09:07):
whatever that there is somebodywith autism that's in the car
and they may not respondappropriately.
They may make certain gesturesthat seem threatening but aren't
right.
Just some basic training likethat, I think would be really
helpful for law enforcement.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
Let's take it to the next step now.
Let's say the first respondersshow up.
Unfortunately, it gets out ofcontrol.
Now they're faced with thelegal system.
Depending on the situation,that can be a very huge cost.
Not only are they faced with anoverwhelming situation now
they're faced with who do wecall?
Who will understand that theirson or daughter is autistic?
(09:45):
How do they go about findingsomeone that knows something
about autism and can help themthrough this most terrifying
situation that they're in?
Speaker 2 (09:56):
Listen, it's really difficult.
I happen to know a few justbecause of the space that I'm in
, but if I have a kid who hasautism or some other type of
severe mental health issue andwants to be in the criminal
justice system, I may panic andjust Google defense attorneys
and just start calling and then,before you know it, I'm sending
a $5,000 retainer and I'mhoping for the best, and that
(10:18):
person may not have anyunderstanding of it or certain
folks won't be able to do that,and then they're left to the
public defender, and what I seeoften happen in that case is
that the person ends up sittingin jail for a considerably long
period of time because they'renot able to be bonded out, and
it's very cumbersome and timeconsuming to get a mitigation
specialist to come in and andadvocate for reduced sentencing
(10:40):
if that's needed.
So it's very difficult, but Ithink, even though there's the
imminent crisis, what I alwaystry and tell families is to say
listen, you know, yes, yourloved one is in jail.
This is terrible, but let's,let's find some appropriate
attorneys and legalrepresentation.
Grill them a little bit, askthem have you worked with
(11:01):
clients who had autism before?
Have you worked with clientsthat had severe and persistent
mental health issues thatcontributed to it.
What is your experience?
How many cases have you handledwith that?
And so often families are justlike anxious, nervous and just
want to get it taken care ofright away.
But what I recommend is reallyasking those types of questions
to make sure that you havesomebody that's qualified for it
(11:22):
and it's not just the firstperson you find on Google.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
Yeah, that's a good point.
Now my next comment and feelfree to tell me if you think
that I'm wrong in this you'restanding in front of that judge.
It's tremendously overwhelming.
You only have a certain amountof time to make a presentation
to the judge and get a lawyer.
Just like when the parentsfirst found out that their child
was autistic, it was the bigunknown.
(11:48):
Now they're standing in frontof a judge.
It's an even bigger unknown.
A lawyer is definitely crucialat that point in time.
So how does that get put inplace?
Speaker 2 (11:58):
So I think what you're referring to is the
timeframe with first appearance,when somebody has their first
appearance.
It is very quick, depending onthe time of day that you get
arrested.
It could be hours If you'rearrested very late at night, or
even in the middle of the night.
You could be at firstappearance first thing that
morning.
And in cases where there's notime and again I want to be
(12:18):
careful that this is going to becounty specific and even state
specific, but what I recommendis, as opposed to rushing to
hike because again that's a lotof money, right, families often
don't have unlimited resources Iusually just recommend, if
there's not any time to findprivate counsel, let them have
their first appearance with thecounty public defender Worst
(12:39):
case scenario.
You can later retain privatecounsel.
And again, I want to be carefulbecause I can tell you that's
the best strategy in Palm BeachCounty, florida, but that may
not be elsewhere.
But you're right, it's often animpossible situation and
families are panicked, they'reanxious, their brain is in
overdrive and they're trying tohelp their kid.
(13:03):
So it's a really difficultsituation.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
Yeah, it is my next step.
I think I want to go to the endand then we'll work our way
back.
They go through this wholeprocess.
They wind up incarcerated.
Now we have another wholedifferent level of people that
truly do not understand theautistic world, or those with
mental illness.
So for a perfect example wouldbe an autistic person goes into
(13:27):
sensory overload.
The guards unfortunately justdo not understand what they're
going through.
How do we help those that workin the prisons so that something
like this wouldn't happen?
Speaker 2 (13:40):
Listen, we think that our local law enforcement has a
difficult time understanding itwhen we get into the point of
the corrections officers withinthe county jail.
Again, this would be the morecynical part of me.
But they don't understand it.
They really don't have a desireto understand.
They're just trying to knockout their shift and have it be
as least chaotic as possible.
(14:01):
And yeah, now you have somebodywho you know may have autism,
may have severe mental illness,and their behavior in the jail
because now it's exacerbatedthey're increasingly stressed
out, they're agitated and theymay end up getting additional
charges just from being in jail,depending on how they act.
And so what I usually recommendto families is that, again,
(14:22):
mothers and fathers of peoplewith autism and other mental
health issues are the fiercestadvocates I've ever seen.
They've moved mountains interms of policy change.
What I always tell them isadvocate Paul, try to inform
them about medication Sometimesthe Tannin County Jail they'll
have mental health units thatthey can be transferred to and
(14:44):
also get a qualified attorney inthere as soon as possible and,
after you found an appropriateone to try and like mitigate it.
And the hard part is too is andwhat I've seen so many families
struggle with and I don't knowif you've heard this is that
sometimes families are concernedabout bonding their loved one
out because they're not surethey can properly manage the
(15:05):
situation and they're concernedabout them potentially
committing even though they'renot doing it intentionally most
of the time, but committing morecrimes after they're actually
released and I just had thatfrom the other day.
So it's so hard and dependingon the situation, but basically
what I usually tell them isfiercely advocate for your loved
one and go to the jail inperson.
Get the right attorney there totry and educate them on what's
(15:28):
going on.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
Yeah, that's great advice.
Now let's go to the prosecutor.
They're the ones that aretrying to put them in jail.
How do we get across to them?
Because many of them do notunderstand autism or mental
illness.
They're out to get a win Notall of them but they just don't
understand it.
If you don't get someone thathas a little empathy on that
(15:51):
side of it, it is a very toughbattle.
A little empathy on that sideof it, it is a very tough battle
.
How do we win there?
We need to get a point acrossto them that is not all people
belong in prison.
How would you address that?
Speaker 2 (16:05):
And this is another circumstance where it's so
state-specific.
I was talking to a familymember and a subsequent social
worker from California and thisperson had some severe mental
health issues and was convictedof some crimes as a result of it
.
They had a social worker thatwas charged in managing and
(16:25):
placing them in mental healthcare.
That was part of the sentence,right?
But I couldn't believe it.
I'm like I was like, oh yeah,like we do this all the time in
California, this is part of thedeal and I was like, wow, I
wonder what it would be like ifthat was able to be replicated.
So they actually had a mentalhealth professional advocating
for the person to receive propertreatment and care and
educating the legal system.
There was a full time staffmember.
(16:46):
They had multiple of themdepending on the county, but
absent from that, that iscertainly not the norm.
It's not the norm in Floridaand I'm sure it's not the norm
in most states.
What that looks like is, I'llback up and say, most
prosecutors while of coursethey're punishment and jail
time-minded, they ultimatelywant the cases off of their list
(17:06):
, they want them settled, theywant the pleas done.
They certainly don't want to goto trial in any meaningful way.
Again, this goes back toseriously advocating, you know,
for your loved one, educatingthem, making sure that your
loved one is under the care ofsome appropriate mental health
professionals that can writeletters, provide reports, write
(17:27):
something to indicate, hey, thiswas related to having autism,
this was related to a mentalhealth disorder or a
co-occurring substance usedisorder.
This is what we're doing toreceive proper treatment and
trying to negotiate a plea fromthere, which, of course, would
involve again having a goodattorney.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
Yes, that's very true .
We've covered a lot of greatthings here.
The last one, I think, is thejudges.
There are a few out there thatare trying to make some changes.
There's a lot that aren't.
Sometimes the prosecutor, thedefense attorney, will come up
with something.
The judge will say, no, that'stoo lenient, that's too harsh.
(18:07):
How do we get them to be moreempathetic and understanding of
what autism and those withmental illness need, so that we
don't overload our prison system?
Because I've heard many times,prison system is not a hospital.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
First thing I'll mention is that and again, most
counties actually do have theability the county will actually
pay a mitigation specialist.
Okay, families typically don'thave to come out of pocket, but
I think it's an underutilizedresource that a lot of people
don't even know that exists.
They can try and like mitigatethe sentencing and explain to
the judge why this happened.
I think is valuable In generaland this is from speaking with a
(18:49):
lot of judges and working a lotof cases one of the number one
protective factors that judgeslook at in terms of, okay, if
this person is released onprobation, what is the
likelihood that they're going tore-offend, as they would use it
in legal terms?
One of the largest protectivefactors against that is family
support, and that's it.
(19:10):
It's family support.
Those without it areexponentially more likely to end
up back in the criminal justicesystem.
It's not to say that.
Obviously, of course, it canhappen even if they have family
support, but it's important thatthe judge knows that family
support is there and so that cancome from.
Writing a personalized letterto a judge is what I often
recommend that families doexplaining your history,
(19:32):
explaining your ability and youravailability and your
willingness to support yourloved one what type of ancillary
care and support you canprovide, whether that be like a
psychiatrist, whomever reallyintimating strongly to that
judge.
Judge, I'm going to try to takecare of my loved ones to the
best of my ability.
I have the availability, thedesire, the willingness to do it
(19:53):
and while simultaneouslyhopefully having somebody that
can educate them on it.
And you're right, it's wherelegal system works right.
Judges have very far-reachingauthority and sometimes it's the
luck of the draw of who ends uptaking your case.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
Absolutely so.
In closing, what would you liketo tell the listeners that you
think is very important thatthey need to hear about what you
do and what we've been talkingabout?
Speaker 2 (20:35):
incarcerated or arrested Because, unfortunately,
because of the way that ourhealthcare system is, that's
what frequently happens.
I think that a lot of familiesI speak to and I've done
presentations for NAMI andrelated organizations when their
loved one is having a crisis,they're panicked and they assume
law enforcement will come helpthem and take them to the
(20:56):
hospital.
What I always tell them is youdon't get it unless you ask.
And just because spoken to the911 operator doesn't mean that's
necessarily going to betranslated to the responding
officer.
What I recommend is that, ifyou can step outside, speak to
the officer first, explain thatthe person either needs to be
hospitalized or whatever it maybe to try and avoid an arrest.
(21:18):
And the other thing and I meantto bring this up earlier too is,
even before calling lawenforcement assuming it's not an
acute crisis check and see ifyour county has a local crisis
team like a mobile crisis teamis what we call it in Palm Beach
County where they'll actuallyhave like a social worker or a
therapist come out and respond.
Every county and state isspecific.
(21:39):
So, if your loved one is havingthese issues, find some local
support groups local autismsupport groups, caregiver
support groups, nami supportgroups so that those families
and those parents can tell youspecifically how they navigated
it.
I always say this all the time,even though I'm a quote-unquote
expert witness the real expertsare the family members in terms
(22:01):
of navigating the legal systemwith their loved ones, because
they've experienced this.
So get connected with otherfamily members who have been
through the same thing indifferent caregiver support
groups.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.
I mean, it's a tough situationfor those involved.
Many times, people like you andI are talking about it.
We can say, well, we'll do this, we'll do this, this is what
you need to do when you'reactually thrown into that
situation.
It is truly just overwhelming,not only for the person that's
going through it, all the peoplethat went through it with them
(22:33):
the family, the lawyers, thejudges, even the first
responders that were there fromthe very beginning.
It's just a tough situation foreveryone.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
It really is, and I think that's another reason why,
if you do have that support ofanother family member or other
family members in a localsupport group, that can make a
world of a difference, becausewhen you're in the crisis, your
adrenaline's pumping, you'rehaving a hard time making
(23:02):
decisions.
If you can have a groundingforce and somebody that's been
through this before can help younavigate it, it really makes a
world of a difference.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
Yeah, yeah, that makes perfect sense.
Well, this has been great Greatconversation, great information
.
I'm sure we missed a few things.
We covered a lot of importanttopics.
Thanks for coming on.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
Oh yeah, absolutely.
Thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
It's been my pleasure .
Thanks for taking the time outof your busy schedule to listen
to our show today.
We hope that you enjoyed it asmuch as we enjoyed bringing it
to you.
If you know anyone that wouldlike to tell us their story,
(23:46):
send them to TonyMantorcomContact then they can give us
their information so one daythey may be a guest on our show.
One more thing we ask telleveryone everywhere about why
Not Me, the world, theconversations we're having and
(24:10):
the inspiration our guests giveto everyone everywhere that you
are not alone in this world.
Welcome to why Not Me ?
The World Podcast, hosted byTony Mantor, Broadcasting from
Music City, USA, Nashville,Tennessee.
Join us as our guests tell ustheir stories.
Some will make you laugh, somewill make you cry.
Us their stories.
(00:28):
Some will make you laugh, somewill make you cry.
Real life people who willinspire and show that you are
not alone in this world.
Hopefully, you gain moreawareness, acceptance and a
(00:52):
better understanding for autismaround the world.
Hi, I'm Tony Mantor.
Welcome to why Not Me?
The World Humanity OverHandcuffs the Silent Crisis
special event.
Joining us today is John Poles,a psychotherapist who is a
licensed clinical social workerand a master certified addiction
professional.
He'll be sharing his journey ofhow he helps others in need.
It's a pleasure to have himhere today.
Thanks for coming on, Of course.
(01:13):
Thanks for having me.
Oh, it's my pleasure If youwould give us a little insight
on what you do, Sure, sure.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Absolutely so.
I'm a I do a few differentthings.
I'm a psychotherapist by trade,right, so I'm a licensed
clinical social worker and amaster certified addiction
professional.
I really started working in thefield, I would say, in about
2013, originally as like asupport staff or what we would
call like a behavioral healthtechnician and inpatient units,
and then I went back to school.
(01:41):
One of my first jobs was myundergraduate was actually at
South County Mental HealthCenter, which is a crisis
stabilization unit.
So I worked with folks withreally severe and persistent
mental health issues, eitherpsychotic disorders, having
active suicidal or homicidalthoughts and gestures and then
(02:01):
so I started working with peoplein crisis, basically, and a lot
of families in crisis.
From that point, I worked in aresidential tool diagnosis unit
for addiction and mental healthand I was again working with a
lot of families and people incrisis, and both times I saw a
really fractured system, both inthe community mental health
standpoint, which was nonprofit,state funded, and then then,
(02:24):
even in what would be considereda nicer kind of for-profit
addiction treatment facility,was still fraught with so many
issues.
And then I eventually went intoprivate practice and so now
predominantly what I do is Iwork with people with more
severe mental health issues,some of which are autistic, and
then I also consult withfamilies in terms of trying to
(02:47):
help them find placements andthings like that.
And then I have a small portionof my practice is actually
doing forensic work as well withthe legal system.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
Okay, let's expand a little bit on your forensic work
.
When people hear the wordforensic, I'm sure they have
different ideas of what it couldbe.
It's probably quite differentfrom what they think it is to
what it actually is.
Could you expand on that?
Speaker 2 (03:09):
First I'll start with saying that I think the
assumption is that socialworkers or clinical social
workers don't do forensic workand it's reserved for
psychiatrists and psychologists.
But I was pleased to knowthat's not the case For me.
What it looks like is that Itestify and do assessments for
people meeting criteria fordifferent types of involuntary
commitment.
So that could be under peoplebeing sectioned, or in Florida
(03:32):
it's called like a Baker Act.
And then also we have a uniquelaw in Florida called the
Marchman Act, which is actuallyinvoluntary treatment for
substance use disorder, which isoften co-occurring a lot of
mental health issues.
And then I also do what's calledmitigation work.
Basically, if somebody isconvicted of some type of crime,
becomes involved in thecriminal justice system, I can
(03:54):
come in and do an assessment andtestify and advocate for
reduced sentencing based on thisperson's mental health, their
trauma history, what they'vegone through as a kid, their
socioeconomic status the listgoes on contributing factors
that lead people to wind up inthe criminal justice system.
The last part of it that I doas well is as I'm sure many
(04:14):
families have experienced thathave loved ones with mental
illness and is that they wind upin inpatient units,
subsequently receive subpar careand monitoring.
So I'll come in and testify tostandard of care for wrongful
death cases involving mentalhealth facilities and addiction
treatment facilities.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
I'm intrigued about the legal side of it.
Most people that I know who donot have autism or mental health
in their family.
They just don't understand it.
They don't know how theautistic brain works.
They also don't understand it.
They don't know how theautistic brain works.
They also don't understand howthose with mental illness, how
their brains work either.
They don't realize that manyautistic people look at things
(04:55):
in a different view than they do, so when they wind up on the
wrong side of the law.
It's my understanding that manyof those in the legal system
have the same challenges.
They don't understand autisticpeople or those with mental
health.
So my question is how do youaddress that?
Speaker 2 (05:15):
So not easy, Although a lot of people don't
understand it.
What I found and not to be toocynical, but what I found as far
as the related criminal justicesystem, various proceedings is
that not only do they notunderstand it, they're not
really making an attempt tounderstand it.
Part of what my role is ineither mitigation work or
working with people that havebeen involved in the criminal
justice system, is reallypsychoeducation, like explaining
(05:36):
that this is what this personwas experiencing at the time.
I'll give you a very quickexample.
This was several years ago.
My family wouldn't mind mebringing this up, but I had a
patient that was in a mentalhealth facility that was
diagnosed with I believe it wasschizophrenia or schizoaffective
disorder, and they were giventhe wrong medication, which is
known to cause agitation, totreat it and they punched a
(05:57):
staff member, which subsequentlyled to their arrest and going
to the county jail, where theyreceived no treatment of course,
and going to the county jail,where they received no treatment
of course, and through a lot oftired advocacy from both their
guardian and myself, we wereable to transfer to the proper
program.
But I think all the criminaljustice would see is hey, this
person assaulted someone.
This person is a danger to thecommunity and they need to be
(06:19):
withheld, but when, in reality,they're just not being properly
treated and there's a lack ofunderstanding, and certainly
once you're to the point ofbeing involved in the criminal
justice system and you'reincarcerated, either in jail or
prison.
Some places are doing it alittle better in terms of
providing mental health care,but the care that they receive
is completely inadequate, veryinadequate.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
So this goes deeper than just the legal system,
because the first respondersthat are the ones that see them
out in the streets.
I've had the pleasure oftalking with several different
people that work between theautistic community and the first
responders.
A lot of people will throwdarts at the police, putting the
blame on them, when they don'trealize they've only got seconds
(07:01):
sometimes to make a decisionwhether a person is going to be
trying to hurt themselves ortrying to hurt someone else.
How do we change that so thatthe first response, hopefully,
is the last response and itdoesn't wind up going past that?
Speaker 2 (07:18):
Absolutely no.
That's a great point, and Ithink that law enforcement
officers are often an easytarget.
Oh well, the law enforcementdid this, police did this, and
they are in very difficultsituations and they have seconds
to act.
I guess what I would respond tothat, as far as what we can do,
is look at some of what'salready being done that I
believe is effective, but it'sdone on a very small scale and
(07:40):
it's kind of fractured and it'snot widely adapted.
In Palm Beach County, forexample, we have what are called
CIT officers, so crisisintervention trained officers.
They receive specific trainingon how to address and work with
somebody that is in supermentaldistress or may have autism, in
order to properly de-escalateand handle it, and you can
(08:02):
actually, in terms of calling911, you can actually request
for a CIT officer to respond.
However, there's a limitedamount Depending on the
situation.
They may not be able to sendsomebody out.
We also have something indifferent areas in South Florida
called service populationadvocates, and so those are
(08:23):
actually members of the policedepartment.
They're paid by the localmunicipality police department.
They have a badge that saysthey're a part of the police
department, but they're alsolicensed mental health
counselors or licensed clinicalsocial workers and they'll
actually respond in lieu of alaw enforcement officer.
Now that's effective, but it'sdone on a very small scale.
What I would recommend is thatthere's one thing for a
(08:45):
specialized CIT-trained officerto respond.
It's a whole other thing tohave a fleet of officers that
can receive some training atleast and have some education,
because I have a neighbor whohas something as autism and she
has a lot of stickers on her carthat basically to inform
anybody that could beapproaching the car police or
(09:07):
whatever that there is somebodywith autism that's in the car
and they may not respondappropriately.
They may make certain gesturesthat seem threatening but aren't
right.
Just some basic training likethat, I think would be really
helpful for law enforcement.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
Let's take it to the next step now.
Let's say the first respondersshow up.
Unfortunately, it gets out ofcontrol.
Now they're faced with thelegal system.
Depending on the situation,that can be a very huge cost.
Not only are they faced with anoverwhelming situation now
they're faced with who do wecall?
Who will understand that theirson or daughter is autistic?
(09:45):
How do they go about findingsomeone that knows something
about autism and can help themthrough this most terrifying
situation that they're in?
Speaker 2 (09:56):
Listen, it's really difficult.
I happen to know a few justbecause of the space that I'm in
, but if I have a kid who hasautism or some other type of
severe mental health issue andwants to be in the criminal
justice system, I may panic andjust Google defense attorneys
and just start calling and then,before you know it, I'm sending
a $5,000 retainer and I'mhoping for the best, and that
(10:18):
person may not have anyunderstanding of it or certain
folks won't be able to do that,and then they're left to the
public defender, and what I seeoften happen in that case is
that the person ends up sittingin jail for a considerably long
period of time because they'renot able to be bonded out, and
it's very cumbersome and timeconsuming to get a mitigation
specialist to come in and andadvocate for reduced sentencing
(10:40):
if that's needed.
So it's very difficult, but Ithink, even though there's the
imminent crisis, what I alwaystry and tell families is to say
listen, you know, yes, yourloved one is in jail.
This is terrible, but let's,let's find some appropriate
attorneys and legalrepresentation.
Grill them a little bit, askthem have you worked with
(11:01):
clients who had autism before?
Have you worked with clientsthat had severe and persistent
mental health issues thatcontributed to it.
What is your experience?
How many cases have you handledwith that?
And so often families are justlike anxious, nervous and just
want to get it taken care ofright away.
But what I recommend is reallyasking those types of questions
to make sure that you havesomebody that's qualified for it
(11:22):
and it's not just the firstperson you find on Google.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
Yeah, that's a good point.
Now my next comment and feelfree to tell me if you think
that I'm wrong in this you'restanding in front of that judge.
It's tremendously overwhelming.
You only have a certain amountof time to make a presentation
to the judge and get a lawyer.
Just like when the parentsfirst found out that their child
was autistic, it was the bigunknown.
(11:48):
Now they're standing in frontof a judge.
It's an even bigger unknown.
A lawyer is definitely crucialat that point in time.
So how does that get put inplace?
Speaker 2 (11:58):
So I think what you're referring to is the
timeframe with first appearance,when somebody has their first
appearance.
It is very quick, depending onthe time of day that you get
arrested.
It could be hours If you'rearrested very late at night, or
even in the middle of the night.
You could be at firstappearance first thing that
morning.
And in cases where there's notime and again I want to be
(12:18):
careful that this is going to becounty specific and even state
specific, but what I recommendis, as opposed to rushing to
hike because again that's a lotof money, right, families often
don't have unlimited resources Iusually just recommend, if
there's not any time to findprivate counsel, let them have
their first appearance with thecounty public defender Worst
(12:39):
case scenario.
You can later retain privatecounsel.
And again, I want to be carefulbecause I can tell you that's
the best strategy in Palm BeachCounty, florida, but that may
not be elsewhere.
But you're right, it's often animpossible situation and
families are panicked, they'reanxious, their brain is in
overdrive and they're trying tohelp their kid.
(13:03):
So it's a really difficultsituation.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
Yeah, it is my next step.
I think I want to go to the endand then we'll work our way
back.
They go through this wholeprocess.
They wind up incarcerated.
Now we have another wholedifferent level of people that
truly do not understand theautistic world, or those with
mental illness.
So for a perfect example wouldbe an autistic person goes into
(13:27):
sensory overload.
The guards unfortunately justdo not understand what they're
going through.
How do we help those that workin the prisons so that something
like this wouldn't happen?
Speaker 2 (13:40):
Listen, we think that our local law enforcement has a
difficult time understanding itwhen we get into the point of
the corrections officers withinthe county jail.
Again, this would be the morecynical part of me.
But they don't understand it.
They really don't have a desireto understand.
They're just trying to knockout their shift and have it be
as least chaotic as possible.
(14:01):
And yeah, now you have somebodywho you know may have autism,
may have severe mental illness,and their behavior in the jail
because now it's exacerbatedthey're increasingly stressed
out, they're agitated and theymay end up getting additional
charges just from being in jail,depending on how they act.
And so what I usually recommendto families is that, again,
(14:22):
mothers and fathers of peoplewith autism and other mental
health issues are the fiercestadvocates I've ever seen.
They've moved mountains interms of policy change.
What I always tell them isadvocate Paul, try to inform
them about medication Sometimesthe Tannin County Jail they'll
have mental health units thatthey can be transferred to and
(14:44):
also get a qualified attorney inthere as soon as possible and,
after you found an appropriateone to try and like mitigate it.
And the hard part is too is andwhat I've seen so many families
struggle with and I don't knowif you've heard this is that
sometimes families are concernedabout bonding their loved one
out because they're not surethey can properly manage the
(15:05):
situation and they're concernedabout them potentially
committing even though they'renot doing it intentionally most
of the time, but committing morecrimes after they're actually
released and I just had thatfrom the other day.
So it's so hard and dependingon the situation, but basically
what I usually tell them isfiercely advocate for your loved
one and go to the jail inperson.
Get the right attorney there totry and educate them on what's
(15:28):
going on.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
Yeah, that's great advice.
Now let's go to the prosecutor.
They're the ones that aretrying to put them in jail.
How do we get across to them?
Because many of them do notunderstand autism or mental
illness.
They're out to get a win Notall of them but they just don't
understand it.
If you don't get someone thathas a little empathy on that
(15:51):
side of it, it is a very toughbattle.
A little empathy on that sideof it, it is a very tough battle
.
How do we win there?
We need to get a point acrossto them that is not all people
belong in prison.
How would you address that?
Speaker 2 (16:05):
And this is another circumstance where it's so
state-specific.
I was talking to a familymember and a subsequent social
worker from California and thisperson had some severe mental
health issues and was convictedof some crimes as a result of it
.
They had a social worker thatwas charged in managing and
(16:25):
placing them in mental healthcare.
That was part of the sentence,right?
But I couldn't believe it.
I'm like I was like, oh yeah,like we do this all the time in
California, this is part of thedeal and I was like, wow, I
wonder what it would be like ifthat was able to be replicated.
So they actually had a mentalhealth professional advocating
for the person to receive propertreatment and care and
educating the legal system.
There was a full time staffmember.
(16:46):
They had multiple of themdepending on the county, but
absent from that, that iscertainly not the norm.
It's not the norm in Floridaand I'm sure it's not the norm
in most states.
What that looks like is, I'llback up and say, most
prosecutors while of coursethey're punishment and jail
time-minded, they ultimatelywant the cases off of their list
(17:06):
, they want them settled, theywant the pleas done.
They certainly don't want to goto trial in any meaningful way.
Again, this goes back toseriously advocating, you know,
for your loved one, educatingthem, making sure that your
loved one is under the care ofsome appropriate mental health
professionals that can writeletters, provide reports, write
(17:27):
something to indicate, hey, thiswas related to having autism,
this was related to a mentalhealth disorder or a
co-occurring substance usedisorder.
This is what we're doing toreceive proper treatment and
trying to negotiate a plea fromthere, which, of course, would
involve again having a goodattorney.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
Yes, that's very true .
We've covered a lot of greatthings here.
The last one, I think, is thejudges.
There are a few out there thatare trying to make some changes.
There's a lot that aren't.
Sometimes the prosecutor, thedefense attorney, will come up
with something.
The judge will say, no, that'stoo lenient, that's too harsh.
(18:07):
How do we get them to be moreempathetic and understanding of
what autism and those withmental illness need, so that we
don't overload our prison system?
Because I've heard many times,prison system is not a hospital.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
First thing I'll mention is that and again, most
counties actually do have theability the county will actually
pay a mitigation specialist.
Okay, families typically don'thave to come out of pocket, but
I think it's an underutilizedresource that a lot of people
don't even know that exists.
They can try and like mitigatethe sentencing and explain to
the judge why this happened.
I think is valuable In generaland this is from speaking with a
(18:49):
lot of judges and working a lotof cases one of the number one
protective factors that judgeslook at in terms of, okay, if
this person is released onprobation, what is the
likelihood that they're going tore-offend, as they would use it
in legal terms?
One of the largest protectivefactors against that is family
support, and that's it.
(19:10):
It's family support.
Those without it areexponentially more likely to end
up back in the criminal justicesystem.
It's not to say that.
Obviously, of course, it canhappen even if they have family
support, but it's important thatthe judge knows that family
support is there and so that cancome from.
Writing a personalized letterto a judge is what I often
recommend that families doexplaining your history,
(19:32):
explaining your ability and youravailability and your
willingness to support yourloved one what type of ancillary
care and support you canprovide, whether that be like a
psychiatrist, whomever reallyintimating strongly to that
judge.
Judge, I'm going to try to takecare of my loved ones to the
best of my ability.
I have the availability, thedesire, the willingness to do it
(19:53):
and while simultaneouslyhopefully having somebody that
can educate them on it.
And you're right, it's wherelegal system works right.
Judges have very far-reachingauthority and sometimes it's the
luck of the draw of who ends uptaking your case.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
Absolutely so.
In closing, what would you liketo tell the listeners that you
think is very important thatthey need to hear about what you
do and what we've been talkingabout?
Speaker 2 (20:35):
incarcerated or arrested Because, unfortunately,
because of the way that ourhealthcare system is, that's
what frequently happens.
I think that a lot of familiesI speak to and I've done
presentations for NAMI andrelated organizations when their
loved one is having a crisis,they're panicked and they assume
law enforcement will come helpthem and take them to the
(20:56):
hospital.
What I always tell them is youdon't get it unless you ask.
And just because spoken to the911 operator doesn't mean that's
necessarily going to betranslated to the responding
officer.
What I recommend is that, ifyou can step outside, speak to
the officer first, explain thatthe person either needs to be
hospitalized or whatever it maybe to try and avoid an arrest.
(21:18):
And the other thing and I meantto bring this up earlier too is,
even before calling lawenforcement assuming it's not an
acute crisis check and see ifyour county has a local crisis
team like a mobile crisis teamis what we call it in Palm Beach
County where they'll actuallyhave like a social worker or a
therapist come out and respond.
Every county and state isspecific.
(21:39):
So, if your loved one is havingthese issues, find some local
support groups local autismsupport groups, caregiver
support groups, nami supportgroups so that those families
and those parents can tell youspecifically how they navigated
it.
I always say this all the time,even though I'm a quote-unquote
expert witness the real expertsare the family members in terms
(22:01):
of navigating the legal systemwith their loved ones, because
they've experienced this.
So get connected with otherfamily members who have been
through the same thing indifferent caregiver support
groups.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.
I mean, it's a tough situationfor those involved.
Many times, people like you andI are talking about it.
We can say, well, we'll do this, we'll do this, this is what
you need to do when you'reactually thrown into that
situation.
It is truly just overwhelming,not only for the person that's
going through it, all the peoplethat went through it with them
(22:33):
the family, the lawyers, thejudges, even the first
responders that were there fromthe very beginning.
It's just a tough situation foreveryone.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
It really is, and I think that's another reason why,
if you do have that support ofanother family member or other
family members in a localsupport group, that can make a
world of a difference, becausewhen you're in the crisis, your
adrenaline's pumping, you'rehaving a hard time making
(23:02):
decisions.
If you can have a groundingforce and somebody that's been
through this before can help younavigate it, it really makes a
world of a difference.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
Yeah, yeah, that makes perfect sense.
Well, this has been great Greatconversation, great information
.
I'm sure we missed a few things.
We covered a lot of importanttopics.
Thanks for coming on.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
Oh yeah, absolutely.
Thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
It's been my pleasure .
Thanks for taking the time outof your busy schedule to listen
to our show today.
We hope that you enjoyed it asmuch as we enjoyed bringing it
to you.
If you know anyone that wouldlike to tell us their story,
(23:46):
send them to TonyMantorcomContact then they can give us
their information so one daythey may be a guest on our show.
One more thing we ask telleveryone everywhere about why
Not Me, the world, theconversations we're having and
(24:10):
the inspiration our guests giveto everyone everywhere that you
are not alone in this world.
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