April 17, 2025 • 28 mins
Judge David Fleischer, who presides over Harris County Criminal Court in Houston, Texas, shares his groundbreaking approaches to criminal justice reform with a focus on mental health and autism awareness.
• Reforming the bail system to prevent wealth-based discrimination in courts
• Dropping conviction rates from 60% to 25% through bail reform implementation
• Creating court environments where defendants with mental health issues receive compassion and understanding
• Livestreaming court proceedings to increase transparency and public education
• Showing patience when working with defendants who have autism or mental health challenges
• Treating every defendant as a whole person deserving of both accountability and support
• Balancing public safety concerns with the need for rehabilitation and intervention
• Understanding how untreated mental health issues often lead to criminal behavior
• Providing resources to help defendants address underlying issues rather than just punishing them
• Demonstrating how transparency in courtrooms creates positive ripple effects throughout communities
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to why Not Me ?
The World Podcast, hosted byTony Mantor, broadcasting from
Music City, usa, nashville,tennessee.
Join us as our guests tell ustheir stories.
Some will make you laugh, somewill make you cry.
Their stories Some will makeyou laugh, some will make you
(00:30):
cry.
Real life people who willinspire and show that you are
not alone in this world.
Hopefully, you gain moreawareness, acceptance and a
better understanding for autismaround the world.
Hi, I'm Tony Mantor.
(00:53):
Welcome to why Not Me?
The World Humanity OverHandcuffs the Silent Crisis
special event.
Joining us today is theHonorable Judge David Fleischer,
who currently presides overHarris County Criminal Court no
5 in Houston, texas.
His focus is on reforming thecourt and ensuring all defenders
receive fair and equaltreatment.
(01:13):
We are honored to have him joinus today.
Thanks for coming on, and canyou tell us a little bit about
what you do?
Speaker 2 (01:20):
I'm happy to be here, you know, anytime we can spread
awareness, I think it's a greatthing.
The business that I'm in.
It goes hand in hand withmental health, the struggles to
get a grip of mental health,because I think it really a lot
of behavior can potentially andunfortunately turn criminal if
mental health goes unchecked.
(01:41):
And I don't know how manypeople realize that.
I think it's very difficult torealize.
You know, hey, I'm bipolar.
I would imagine that a lot ofpeople don't see it, they don't
recognize it and it takessomething catastrophic for them
to finally realize hey, I mightreally need to talk to someone,
I might really need medication,and sometimes it's too late.
(02:02):
What we do here is we reallyand what I'm doing is really
trying to get to the heart ofthe issue, to figure out what's
going on with everyone and tohelp them.
And you know we want everybodyto leave better than they came.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
So, as a judge, you have two different points of
view.
Of course you've got theprosecutor that's trying to get
his point across.
Then you have the defenseattorney that's trying to get
his point of view across.
One tries to paint it as theworst thing in the world, the
other tries to paint a picturethat is not as bad as it looks.
So, being the judge, you haveto commit at some point to
(02:41):
making a decision.
What goes into your processafter everything is said and
done, to making that decision sothat it can be, hopefully, good
for everyone.
Common sense right, yeah, thatsounds good.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Let me get a couple things, bring a couple things to
the forefront here that I thinkit's important that not a lot
of people realize.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Number one.
I'm a judge of one of themisdemeanor courts here in
Harris County, which is Houston.
In our court we only deal withmisdemeanors class A and class B
, where they're punishable by upto six months in jail and or a
year in jail.
I have 16 of my brethren, sothere's 16 of us here in Harris
County.
You have to realize thatHouston is a humongous city.
(03:25):
From one part to the other ittakes three hours, right, it's
absolutely just enormous.
So there's a lot of people here.
What?
3 million, 4 million people?
So there's a lot of thingsgoing on at all times.
One of the biggest things thatwe do is probable cause.
So initially, someone getsarrested, they have their first
court date.
That's when we a lot of timeswe'll is probable cause.
(03:45):
So initially someone getsarrested, they have their first
court date.
That's when we a lot of timeswill do probable cause, where we
determine if there's enough togo forward.
We as judges, we call balls andstrikes.
To be fair, you don't lean toone side, you don't lean to the
other side.
We are given a set ofcircumstances, we look at what
the law is and we go forwardfrom there.
(04:05):
In our experience here we'vehad great adas.
They're not out for blood.
It's not like that now.
Sometimes it may seem like that, but understand they're
advocating their position andreasonable minds can differ.
You know how a defense lawyermay see something it it may not
necessarily as someone else seesomething, and so that's why we,
(04:28):
kind of like horse blinders,take a middle-of-the-road
approach, the common senseresult and look whether there's
probable cause to go forward ornot.
Sometimes there is, sometimesthere's not.
But one of the most importantfactors at play here that I
don't know if you guys knowabout it, but we, along with our
brethren here in 2018, reallychanged the landscape of
(04:51):
criminal justice because of bailreform.
I don't know if you're familiarwith bail reform, but what that
is is that back in the old days,and how it's been since the
beginning of time, if you gotarrested, you went to jail, and
the only way you got out of jailis if you bonded out.
Not everybody has that kind ofmoney.
So in 16, a lady filed alawsuit, a federal lawsuit
because, hey, man, it's not fair.
(05:12):
What's going on?
So what happened was a ladygets arrested for a suspended
license case, she ends up goingto jail.
Her bond gets set if I remembercorrectly $2,500, which is you
would pay 10% traditionally,which is $250.
You get out and you go fightthe case.
Not everybody has that kind ofmoney.
So what they would do is theywould sit in jail, they would
plead guilty and they would sitthere just to get out.
(05:35):
They would plead guilty Whetheryou know you're innocent or not
.
Even if you can't make that,they charge you with an assault
or DWI or whatever it may be.
Who's going to sit there intheir right mind for four months
waiting for evidence to come in?
No one's going to do that.
It's easier to plead guilty andget out.
Who cares about theconsequences?
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Yeah, that's a tough situation, so how did you get
that changed?
Speaker 2 (05:57):
So when we got elected me and my brother in an
18, you know the judges beforeus fought bail reform.
I don't know why.
Maybe it's the fact that youknow, you're used to a system in
place, you know, and peoplefear change, but I don't know.
But when we came in, we said,hey, we agree with bail reform.
Bail reform is good from amisdemeanor standpoint I don't
know about felonies, butmisdemeanor because the idea is,
(06:20):
when you're in jail, it affectsthis, it affects this.
I don't know if you've everbeen to jail and I don't want
you to say yes or no, but it issuch an awful place.
It can play with your mind, itcan play with your psyche.
It can make you develop anxiety, mental health problems and you
lose your house, your apartment, cars.
(06:41):
Now what we've done is we'vecompletely just turned around a
system that's been in place for150 years on its head.
Now, when you get arrested fornonviolent offenses and of
course there's exceptions to therule, but by and large a lot of
people are given a personalrecognizance bond, a PR bond, to
get out to fight the case.
(07:02):
The idea is is that itshouldn't be a wealth-based
criminal justice system, howit's been.
What you have now are peoplebeing able to be on the outside
fighting their case so theydon't have to plead guilty to
get out.
The conviction rate has droppedfrom a 60% I mean to mind this
a 60% conviction rate in 2016now to around a 25, 23 to 25%
(07:27):
conviction rate.
That's staggering.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
Yes, that's pretty amazing.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
It helps people in everyday life, from not losing
their jobs, their mental health,keeping families, rise,
possessions, and so now we see alot of people coming back with
other issues at play and theywould prefer to live on the
street than me finding youhousing.
(08:08):
It's really staggering.
So that's now the mission.
We've done a 180 with regard tobail reform.
Now that we've instituted thisprogram, what's next?
Next on the list is mentalhealth, getting down to how we
help every single person thatcomes through the criminal
justice system, and that's wherewe are now.
I think it's difficult, becauseone more point is what makes it
(08:29):
so difficult is I want to helpyou, but you don't want to help
me helping you.
How do we go forward?
Speaker 1 (08:35):
So true, there's definitely a staggering amount
of people that get caught up inthe legal system.
One of the things that I hearvery consistently is that if you
haven't been in a court, youjust don't realize how
overwhelming it can be.
That comes from people that,quote live the normal life.
(08:56):
Now you add autism or any othermental health situation that
can affect how they act or react, it can turn something that's
just stressful into somethingthat's insurmountable.
So how do we help those peoplethat really need the help?
Speaker 2 (09:14):
You know, I think one of the major other issues that
we have is we were reallylimited with the resources that
we have as well to be able tohelp.
Many times it's addictionissues, many times it's just not
getting the proper medication,and when you do that, it really
helps.
My philosophy is you know, Ihave four kids at home, right,
(09:35):
and then I have another 2,000 atwork.
Every person that comes throughI treat like they're my own
child.
You know, if you do well, youknow we hug you, we congratulate
you.
Hey, great job, becausepositive reinforcement has
really such a it's so great.
Hey, you mess up, you're goingto get it as well.
We give everybody theexpectation of hey, you know,
(09:56):
this is what the expectation iswhen you come here.
If you need help, we will giveyou help.
All you have to do is ask, butunfortunately the problem is
sometimes they just won't acceptit, no matter how much, and I
don't know how to go forward.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
You've got, let's say you have an autistic person
that comes in front of you.
They're wired differently inthe way they think, the way they
process things.
Some will come across that theydon't have any empathy about
things that they've done, whenthey really do.
It's just that they don'tunderstand because to them, if
you cut your finger, what's theproblem?
You cut your finger.
So how do we help people likethat that don't understand the
(10:41):
system they can't really afford?
You know they're going to haveto go with a public defender,
you know which?
I'm not saying anything badabout public defenders, but they
just sometimes don't have thetime to learn about the
affliction that that personthey're defending might have.
And then they've got the ADAthat's trying to prosecute.
(11:03):
How do we go about helpingthose people so that we can get
more empathy towards the person?
That's really not violent, butthey just need help.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
I will tell you I've had quite a number of autistic
in my opinion.
I never know, because when I'mfacing someone in front of me I
don't have information that theymay be autistic At times.
You can tell you know whenyou're talking to someone.
When I have someone that Ithink is either special needs,
needs a little bit more care,what I do is I shower them with
(11:38):
even more love.
I swear to you I take more time, show a lot more compassion to
get them to try to trust me,because that's what I want.
I want you to open up to me.
I want to see open up to me.
I want to see what makes youtick.
I want to be able to look intoyou to see how I can help you,
whether it's get you into asober living facility we have a
(11:58):
mental health docket here thatwe help a lot of people with as
well and whether it's gettingthem into a mental health docket
.
But what's really sad is that ifyou look around courts around
the country, a lot of peopledon't see it, because you don't
get to really see the innerworkings of how a court works,
and that's why we do what we docomplete and utter transparency,
(12:19):
so that you get to see whatgoes on, because I think it's
imperative for the public to getaccess to see how courts work,
how we do what we do and why wedo what we do, so that you get a
better understanding of what wedo, how difficult it may be at
some times and how you may beable to help us as well.
When we get autistic, when weget persons with either mental
(12:41):
health issues, we shower themwith love.
We shower them with help sothat they can open up and accept
what we're trying to give.
Sometimes it works, sometimesit doesn't.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
Yeah, that's all you can do.
Now.
As a judge, you're alwaystrying to show that you're
impartial.
Sure, now how do you get itacross to the ADA and, of course
, the defense that you'reshowing compassion because they
may be autistic or have someother issues, yet you're being
fair with the judgment that yougive.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
So when I get someone in front of me, we look at what
the initial charge is.
Sometimes it may be a criminaltrespass, sometimes it may be a
criminal mischief, sometimes itmay be a DWI, an assault.
A lot of times I can tell theperson by how they're acting in
court, what happened with thecase and what kind of bond
(13:33):
conditions to put on them.
That's how we help by reallylooking at the person who they
are, crafting conditions thatspecifically help them, and so
what we're doing is not only amI helping the defense, but I'm
also helping the DAs as well, sothat they know we are number
one protecting the public,making sure that we put enough
(13:56):
conditions if they needconditions, so that they won't
commit new offenses, becausewhat we don't want is we don't
want you to, while you're onbond, to pick up another case.
We don't want you to endangerour public.
So I'm not necessarily beingfair to one side or to endanger
our public, so I'm notnecessarily being fair to one
side or to the other side.
What I'm doing is I'm trying toharmoniously protect the public
and also help everybody that'scoming through.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
You're the third judge that I've spoken to.
The others have the samephilosophy as you.
They want to get them throughthe system.
They don't want to see themcome back again, because if they
get them help from the outside,then chances are they won't
come back.
I'm sure there are many otherjudges around the country that
(14:39):
feel exactly the same way you do.
Unfortunately, for everyonethat wants change, there are
many out there that want to keepthe system status quo.
How do we get them to changetheir outlook so, ultimately, we
can get the legal system?
Speaker 2 (15:00):
It's the person.
It's the person, you know.
I mean, there's a couple ofthings at play.
I think One is is what happensto a person who sees too much
over the course of many, manyyears?
Perhaps they become jaded, theybecome desensitized.
Right, that's what happens whenyou watch on the TV, the murder
, violence you becomedesensitized.
(15:21):
It can happen with judges aswell, and that's why you need
either you know term limits orthat's why you have elections.
Right, it's the will of thepeople.
Unfortunately, the problem isis that most people,
statistically just don't vote.
At the end of the day, the waythat you really keep a judge in
check is through the electionprocess, because it's the will
(15:41):
of the people that shouldcommand the vote.
Right, it's there, and they'rethe ones who should be the
driving force as to whether ajudge is in place or a judge is
not in place.
If a judge, like you said, hastoo much meanness, so to speak,
it needs to come out.
Right, how do you do that?
That's a great question, Idon't know.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Now there's an oversight committee on judges,
correct Of course?
Is there any way that theoversight committee, the judges,
the other people that might beinvolved, could sit in a room
and talk it all out?
Speaker 2 (16:14):
You know, theoretically, what would happen
is someone would have to file acomplaint.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
Right, and that's, you know, just like anything in
life.
You know, when you have peoplewho are upset, either at a
lawyer, at a judge at something,set either at a lawyer at a
judge at something, there'salways a bar, a state bar, that
can either, you know, you file acomplaint.
That's one way, so to speak,right, but I think ultimately,
(16:39):
at the end of the day, anelection is just that.
You know, here we recently hadan election a couple months ago,
and a lot of the judges thatwere here are not here anymore.
It was the driving force of thewill of the people.
So I think that's one of thethings that keeps judges in
check.
But that's a very big problemwhere, you know, a lot of judges
become desensitized and theyeither take it for granted, they
(16:59):
don't see the human or theperson that's in front of you,
because you can really changesomeone's life, because judges
really have so much power.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
Yeah, that's so true.
Now, when it comes to elections, does it get to the point where
they just get put in?
Speaker 2 (17:18):
If you have enough name recognition.
If I was Elvis and I ran forsomething you know.
But by and large it's usuallynot like that.
There's very, very few,especially on the judiciary,
where they become such a namerecognition that it's futile to
run against them.
Most of those are either inSenate or in Congress, not in
(17:39):
local judges.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
Yeah, that makes sense.
Let's say you're running for ajudgeship.
You put it out there thatyou're trying to help people.
You're not the hanging judgelike they see on TV.
So many people, if they don'tknow autism or special needs or
mental health, they'll seesomething, not understand it and
say put them in jail and throwaway the key, which is not the
(18:02):
right thing to do.
They have to understand that inthe real world of the legal
system it's not like the moviesor TV.
How do you get that across tothem?
So hopefully they understandmore about what you do.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
It happens all the time, it really does, and the
only way is through educationand to somehow get it out there
that, hey, this is what's goingon, this is the reality of the
situation.
But far, far too many times alot of judges get a bad rap when
it's certainly just not true,and it's very, very difficult,
(18:38):
and a lot of judges get itbecause of it.
It happens all the time.
We have certain things we cansay.
We have certain things we can'tsay.
I can't come back and saysomething we're not allowed to,
you know.
So there are certain things wecan, we can't.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
We just have to basically take yeah, that's
tough, especially where peopledon't really understand how the
legal system actually works.
How do we educate them and getthem at least headed in the
right direction so they can seehow the judicial system works
and then follow it and hopefullyget a better attitude for it
(19:16):
moving forward?
Speaker 2 (19:18):
That's exactly what we're doing now.
My iLivestream is exactly whatwe're doing now.
You get a perspective ofexactly what's going on.
It's complete transparency.
You are looking what happensevery single day in our court.
You get to see the good, youget to see the bad.
It is such an educational toolbecause all too often we get so
(19:42):
many people that are justmisunderstood, and that's when
we step in and just try to help.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
Yeah, I'm so glad that you brought up live
streaming.
That brings up a couple ofquestions when did you start it,
why did you start it and howhas it changed the perception
either positive or negative inwhat you're doing with it?
Speaker 2 (20:07):
If you remember, back in times of COVID, there were
no courts.
There were no basic open courts, because everybody was
homebound.
Believe it or not, criminalitynever ended.
People continued to getarrested, things continued to
happen.
So courts have to stay open.
They have to continue.
We were closed.
How do you get?
Because it's still an openforum.
(20:27):
Courts have to stay open.
They have to be an open forumso that anybody has access to it
that wants to have access to it.
So what we did was we began livestreaming.
What I did was, and what we alldid, what we were required to
do, was to use Zoom as an avenueto be able to communicate with
the lawyers, and we would livestream the Zoom proceedings so
(20:50):
that the entire world could see.
You can go to our court now.
Go to my webpage, click on thelive stream and you can watch,
and I've been doing it since wewere required to back in 2020.
Now, four years later, Icontinue to do it.
It kind of somehow just someonestarted watching and it just
(21:10):
kind of ballooned out of there.
The great thing about it is isthat it provides number one,
transparency.
Number two, it's a greateducational tool, like I've been
saying.
However, the bad part is noteverybody likes to be on it,
right?
So they take issue with beingthrust into it, and it's the
court process.
I'm sorry, when you get introuble, this is what happens.
There's consequence to behavior, you have to learn it, and it's
(21:30):
the court process.
I'm sorry, when you get introuble, this is what happens.
There's consequence to behavior, you have to learn it.
Nowadays, anonymity is justgone right In every aspect of
life.
I would hope that it wouldpossibly be a great deterrent as
well, especially for those who,if you're professional and
you're out there, think beforeyou act, think before you speak.
There is a humongousconsequence now.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
What kind of results have you seen come from this?
You started it because you hadto.
Now you're keeping it going and, of course, there are people
out there that love it.
There are people out there thathate it.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
Sure.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
How have you seen it change, or have you seen it
change the dynamic within yourcourtroom since you started
doing this?
Speaker 2 (22:13):
It doesn't change the dynamic in the courtroom what
I've found, and I'll tell youthat I get a lot of comments and
people that reach out to methat say, hey, thank you for
doing what you're doing.
Because of you, I have reachedout to a long-lost brother.
We've had people that have toldus that they've stopped harming
themselves, they've checkedinto rehab because they see how
(22:35):
other people go through things,they empathize with them, they
see what good can come from it,and so they in turn do the same
thing.
I promise you I can't tell youhow many people have reached out
to us in such a positive waythat it has impacted them,
seeking mental health treatment,prevention from suicide, really
seeking drug treatment.
(22:56):
I mean, I can give you letterafter letter, email after email,
but of course there's always anegative as well, right To
people who don't like it, andthere's like there's going to be
that with every aspect of lifelike there's going to be that
with every aspect of life.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
I think it's just great that, because I never
thought of it from that angle,that showing this, that other
people could use it as a tool toshow their son or daughter or
relative that hey look, this iswhat this person's going through
, You're doing the same thingand you can't use your ADHD or
whatever as an excuse.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
I've had teachers that have reached out to us that
they show it to their classroom.
An excuse.
I've had teachers that havereached out to us that they show
it to their classroom, and soI've had other teachers that say
, hey, can you come and speak toour class?
So it's from that aspect that Ithink that it's really just a
great resource and aneducational tool, because now
our young children and our youngadults, they don't think before
(23:47):
acting.
Our young children and ouryoung adults, they don't think
before acting.
God knows that I was 17 and 18too, right, but when you see
what happens and when you seethe consequence, right.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
Well, this has been great.
So, of course, now this podcastis about autism and mental
health and all that.
What would you like to sayregarding your courtroom and the
mental health and autism thatyou think that people listening
to would benefit from hearing?
Speaker 2 (24:15):
one of the biggest problems in life and I think
that this can really play ineverything is patience.
If people had more patience inevery aspect of life, we would
just be a better overall, betterworld.
Patience whether you are beinga judge, you're patients.
Whether you are being a judge,you're judging.
Whether you are a districtattorney, whether you're on
probation and dealing withsomeone.
(24:35):
Whether you are talking tosomeone who has autism and
mental health issue and you'retrying to get through to them
and you're not getting throughand you become so agitated that
everybody explodes.
Just patients has such aagitated that everybody explodes
.
Just patience has such a virtue.
It's a very difficult trait tohave to practice and if
everybody did and just took asecond to reflect, I really
(24:58):
think it would help in everyaspect of life, especially when
we're talking about mentalhealth.
It's not hard.
I mean, I'm sorry, it's verydifficult dealing with,
participating and speaking tosomeone who may have mental
health issues or autism.
It's not easy and if you don'thave patience, it's even going
to be more difficult.
Not only are you going to befrustrated, but the other person
(25:18):
is going to be doublefrustrated because think about
them.
They're trying to get to youand they have an issue trying to
express themselves.
Autism is a very tricky thingbut if you have patience and you
show compassion and love towardthat person, once they start to
trust you they'll open up andhopefully you will learn how to
deal with the autism and how tobest communicate and perhaps
(25:43):
help them.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
Yeah, yeah, I think that's great.
Many people have forgotten thedefinition of the word patience.
This is one analogy that I givequite a bit.
Many people have forgotten thedefinition of the word patience.
Speaker 2 (25:50):
This is one analogy that I give quite a bit.
I was pulled over quite a whileago and I had an officer come
up to me extremely arrogant.
Just hey, man, why'd you dothat?
Why did you run that stop sign?
I knew I stopped.
Okay, maybe I stopped for asecond.
I didn't stop for three seconds.
So I looked at the officer andI said you know, I'm sorry, man,
I'm an idiot.
So I looked at the officer andI said you know, I'm sorry, man,
I'm an idiot.
(26:10):
I just truly I'm sorry and I'lldo better next time.
He let me go.
If I would have been aggressiveto him, what would have happened
?
If you practice that ineveryday life with mental health
, with autism, when they'retrying to combat it to you, and
you really shower them with loveand empathy, I mean, this guy's
a limit.
(26:31):
So that's what we do in ourcourt and actually in all of our
courts here, right, Not just me, our entire brethren, and I
think that hopefully we'll makea change, because that's what we
try to do, you know just try tomake everyone better when they
leave.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
Yeah, that's a great model and hopefully many people
around the country catch on tothat.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
I don't know.
You know it's one person at atime, one step at a time, and
you know I'm not going to behere for long, but I hope that
we can touch as many lives asyou have with your podcast.
I mean, you've done it inhundreds of thousands.
Me, I'm just one at a time, butyou know that's all it takes.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
One at a time, you know that's fantastic.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
I really appreciate it.
Thanks again.
Thanks for taking the time outof your busy schedule to listen
to our show today.
We hope that you enjoyed it asmuch as we enjoyed bringing it
to you.
If you know anyone that wouldlike to tell us their story,
(27:40):
send them to TonyMantorcomContact then they can give us
their information so one daythey may be a guest on our show.
One more thing we ask telleveryone everywhere about why
Not Me, the world, theconversations we're having and
(28:01):
the inspiration our guests giveto everyone everywhere that you
are not alone in this world.
Welcome to why Not Me ?
The World Podcast, hosted byTony Mantor, broadcasting from
Music City, usa, nashville,tennessee.
Join us as our guests tell ustheir stories.
Some will make you laugh, somewill make you cry.
Their stories Some will makeyou laugh, some will make you
(00:30):
cry.
Real life people who willinspire and show that you are
not alone in this world.
Hopefully, you gain moreawareness, acceptance and a
better understanding for autismaround the world.
Hi, I'm Tony Mantor.
(00:53):
Welcome to why Not Me?
The World Humanity OverHandcuffs the Silent Crisis
special event.
Joining us today is theHonorable Judge David Fleischer,
who currently presides overHarris County Criminal Court no
5 in Houston, texas.
His focus is on reforming thecourt and ensuring all defenders
receive fair and equaltreatment.
(01:13):
We are honored to have him joinus today.
Thanks for coming on, and canyou tell us a little bit about
what you do?
Speaker 2 (01:20):
I'm happy to be here, you know, anytime we can spread
awareness, I think it's a greatthing.
The business that I'm in.
It goes hand in hand withmental health, the struggles to
get a grip of mental health,because I think it really a lot
of behavior can potentially andunfortunately turn criminal if
mental health goes unchecked.
(01:41):
And I don't know how manypeople realize that.
I think it's very difficult torealize.
You know, hey, I'm bipolar.
I would imagine that a lot ofpeople don't see it, they don't
recognize it and it takessomething catastrophic for them
to finally realize hey, I mightreally need to talk to someone,
I might really need medication,and sometimes it's too late.
(02:02):
What we do here is we reallyand what I'm doing is really
trying to get to the heart ofthe issue, to figure out what's
going on with everyone and tohelp them.
And you know we want everybodyto leave better than they came.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
So, as a judge, you have two different points of
view.
Of course you've got theprosecutor that's trying to get
his point across.
Then you have the defenseattorney that's trying to get
his point of view across.
One tries to paint it as theworst thing in the world, the
other tries to paint a picturethat is not as bad as it looks.
So, being the judge, you haveto commit at some point to
(02:41):
making a decision.
What goes into your processafter everything is said and
done, to making that decision sothat it can be, hopefully, good
for everyone.
Common sense right, yeah, thatsounds good.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Let me get a couple things, bring a couple things to
the forefront here that I thinkit's important that not a lot
of people realize.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Number one.
I'm a judge of one of themisdemeanor courts here in
Harris County, which is Houston.
In our court we only deal withmisdemeanors class A and class B
, where they're punishable by upto six months in jail and or a
year in jail.
I have 16 of my brethren, sothere's 16 of us here in Harris
County.
You have to realize thatHouston is a humongous city.
(03:25):
From one part to the other ittakes three hours, right, it's
absolutely just enormous.
So there's a lot of people here.
What?
3 million, 4 million people?
So there's a lot of thingsgoing on at all times.
One of the biggest things thatwe do is probable cause.
So initially, someone getsarrested, they have their first
court date.
That's when we a lot of timeswe'll is probable cause.
(03:45):
So initially someone getsarrested, they have their first
court date.
That's when we a lot of timeswill do probable cause, where we
determine if there's enough togo forward.
We as judges, we call balls andstrikes.
To be fair, you don't lean toone side, you don't lean to the
other side.
We are given a set ofcircumstances, we look at what
the law is and we go forwardfrom there.
(04:05):
In our experience here we'vehad great adas.
They're not out for blood.
It's not like that now.
Sometimes it may seem like that, but understand they're
advocating their position andreasonable minds can differ.
You know how a defense lawyermay see something it it may not
necessarily as someone else seesomething, and so that's why we,
(04:28):
kind of like horse blinders,take a middle-of-the-road
approach, the common senseresult and look whether there's
probable cause to go forward ornot.
Sometimes there is, sometimesthere's not.
But one of the most importantfactors at play here that I
don't know if you guys knowabout it, but we, along with our
brethren here in 2018, reallychanged the landscape of
(04:51):
criminal justice because of bailreform.
I don't know if you're familiarwith bail reform, but what that
is is that back in the old days,and how it's been since the
beginning of time, if you gotarrested, you went to jail, and
the only way you got out of jailis if you bonded out.
Not everybody has that kind ofmoney.
So in 16, a lady filed alawsuit, a federal lawsuit
because, hey, man, it's not fair.
(05:12):
What's going on?
So what happened was a ladygets arrested for a suspended
license case, she ends up goingto jail.
Her bond gets set if I remembercorrectly $2,500, which is you
would pay 10% traditionally,which is $250.
You get out and you go fightthe case.
Not everybody has that kind ofmoney.
So what they would do is theywould sit in jail, they would
plead guilty and they would sitthere just to get out.
(05:35):
They would plead guilty Whetheryou know you're innocent or not
.
Even if you can't make that,they charge you with an assault
or DWI or whatever it may be.
Who's going to sit there intheir right mind for four months
waiting for evidence to come in?
No one's going to do that.
It's easier to plead guilty andget out.
Who cares about theconsequences?
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Yeah, that's a tough situation, so how did you get
that changed?
Speaker 2 (05:57):
So when we got elected me and my brother in an
18, you know the judges beforeus fought bail reform.
I don't know why.
Maybe it's the fact that youknow, you're used to a system in
place, you know, and peoplefear change, but I don't know.
But when we came in, we said,hey, we agree with bail reform.
Bail reform is good from amisdemeanor standpoint I don't
know about felonies, butmisdemeanor because the idea is,
(06:20):
when you're in jail, it affectsthis, it affects this.
I don't know if you've everbeen to jail and I don't want
you to say yes or no, but it issuch an awful place.
It can play with your mind, itcan play with your psyche.
It can make you develop anxiety, mental health problems and you
lose your house, your apartment, cars.
(06:41):
Now what we've done is we'vecompletely just turned around a
system that's been in place for150 years on its head.
Now, when you get arrested fornonviolent offenses and of
course there's exceptions to therule, but by and large a lot of
people are given a personalrecognizance bond, a PR bond, to
get out to fight the case.
(07:02):
The idea is is that itshouldn't be a wealth-based
criminal justice system, howit's been.
What you have now are peoplebeing able to be on the outside
fighting their case so theydon't have to plead guilty to
get out.
The conviction rate has droppedfrom a 60% I mean to mind this
a 60% conviction rate in 2016now to around a 25, 23 to 25%
(07:27):
conviction rate.
That's staggering.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
Yes, that's pretty amazing.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
It helps people in everyday life, from not losing
their jobs, their mental health,keeping families, rise,
possessions, and so now we see alot of people coming back with
other issues at play and theywould prefer to live on the
street than me finding youhousing.
(08:08):
It's really staggering.
So that's now the mission.
We've done a 180 with regard tobail reform.
Now that we've instituted thisprogram, what's next?
Next on the list is mentalhealth, getting down to how we
help every single person thatcomes through the criminal
justice system, and that's wherewe are now.
I think it's difficult, becauseone more point is what makes it
(08:29):
so difficult is I want to helpyou, but you don't want to help
me helping you.
How do we go forward?
Speaker 1 (08:35):
So true, there's definitely a staggering amount
of people that get caught up inthe legal system.
One of the things that I hearvery consistently is that if you
haven't been in a court, youjust don't realize how
overwhelming it can be.
That comes from people that,quote live the normal life.
(08:56):
Now you add autism or any othermental health situation that
can affect how they act or react, it can turn something that's
just stressful into somethingthat's insurmountable.
So how do we help those peoplethat really need the help?
Speaker 2 (09:14):
You know, I think one of the major other issues that
we have is we were reallylimited with the resources that
we have as well to be able tohelp.
Many times it's addictionissues, many times it's just not
getting the proper medication,and when you do that, it really
helps.
My philosophy is you know, Ihave four kids at home, right,
(09:35):
and then I have another 2,000 atwork.
Every person that comes throughI treat like they're my own
child.
You know, if you do well, youknow we hug you, we congratulate
you.
Hey, great job, becausepositive reinforcement has
really such a it's so great.
Hey, you mess up, you're goingto get it as well.
We give everybody theexpectation of hey, you know,
(09:56):
this is what the expectation iswhen you come here.
If you need help, we will giveyou help.
All you have to do is ask, butunfortunately the problem is
sometimes they just won't acceptit, no matter how much, and I
don't know how to go forward.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
You've got, let's say you have an autistic person
that comes in front of you.
They're wired differently inthe way they think, the way they
process things.
Some will come across that theydon't have any empathy about
things that they've done, whenthey really do.
It's just that they don'tunderstand because to them, if
you cut your finger, what's theproblem?
You cut your finger.
So how do we help people likethat that don't understand the
(10:41):
system they can't really afford?
You know they're going to haveto go with a public defender,
you know which?
I'm not saying anything badabout public defenders, but they
just sometimes don't have thetime to learn about the
affliction that that personthey're defending might have.
And then they've got the ADAthat's trying to prosecute.
(11:03):
How do we go about helpingthose people so that we can get
more empathy towards the person?
That's really not violent, butthey just need help.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
I will tell you I've had quite a number of autistic
in my opinion.
I never know, because when I'mfacing someone in front of me I
don't have information that theymay be autistic At times.
You can tell you know whenyou're talking to someone.
When I have someone that Ithink is either special needs,
needs a little bit more care,what I do is I shower them with
(11:38):
even more love.
I swear to you I take more time, show a lot more compassion to
get them to try to trust me,because that's what I want.
I want you to open up to me.
I want to see open up to me.
I want to see what makes youtick.
I want to be able to look intoyou to see how I can help you,
whether it's get you into asober living facility we have a
(11:58):
mental health docket here thatwe help a lot of people with as
well and whether it's gettingthem into a mental health docket
.
But what's really sad is that ifyou look around courts around
the country, a lot of peopledon't see it, because you don't
get to really see the innerworkings of how a court works,
and that's why we do what we docomplete and utter transparency,
(12:19):
so that you get to see whatgoes on, because I think it's
imperative for the public to getaccess to see how courts work,
how we do what we do and why wedo what we do, so that you get a
better understanding of what wedo, how difficult it may be at
some times and how you may beable to help us as well.
When we get autistic, when weget persons with either mental
(12:41):
health issues, we shower themwith love.
We shower them with help sothat they can open up and accept
what we're trying to give.
Sometimes it works, sometimesit doesn't.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
Yeah, that's all you can do.
Now.
As a judge, you're alwaystrying to show that you're
impartial.
Sure, now how do you get itacross to the ADA and, of course
, the defense that you'reshowing compassion because they
may be autistic or have someother issues, yet you're being
fair with the judgment that yougive.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
So when I get someone in front of me, we look at what
the initial charge is.
Sometimes it may be a criminaltrespass, sometimes it may be a
criminal mischief, sometimes itmay be a DWI, an assault.
A lot of times I can tell theperson by how they're acting in
court, what happened with thecase and what kind of bond
(13:33):
conditions to put on them.
That's how we help by reallylooking at the person who they
are, crafting conditions thatspecifically help them, and so
what we're doing is not only amI helping the defense, but I'm
also helping the DAs as well, sothat they know we are number
one protecting the public,making sure that we put enough
(13:56):
conditions if they needconditions, so that they won't
commit new offenses, becausewhat we don't want is we don't
want you to, while you're onbond, to pick up another case.
We don't want you to endangerour public.
So I'm not necessarily beingfair to one side or to endanger
our public, so I'm notnecessarily being fair to one
side or to the other side.
What I'm doing is I'm trying toharmoniously protect the public
and also help everybody that'scoming through.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
You're the third judge that I've spoken to.
The others have the samephilosophy as you.
They want to get them throughthe system.
They don't want to see themcome back again, because if they
get them help from the outside,then chances are they won't
come back.
I'm sure there are many otherjudges around the country that
(14:39):
feel exactly the same way you do.
Unfortunately, for everyonethat wants change, there are
many out there that want to keepthe system status quo.
How do we get them to changetheir outlook so, ultimately, we
can get the legal system?
Speaker 2 (15:00):
It's the person.
It's the person, you know.
I mean, there's a couple ofthings at play.
I think One is is what happensto a person who sees too much
over the course of many, manyyears?
Perhaps they become jaded, theybecome desensitized.
Right, that's what happens whenyou watch on the TV, the murder
, violence you becomedesensitized.
(15:21):
It can happen with judges aswell, and that's why you need
either you know term limits orthat's why you have elections.
Right, it's the will of thepeople.
Unfortunately, the problem isis that most people,
statistically just don't vote.
At the end of the day, the waythat you really keep a judge in
check is through the electionprocess, because it's the will
(15:41):
of the people that shouldcommand the vote.
Right, it's there, and they'rethe ones who should be the
driving force as to whether ajudge is in place or a judge is
not in place.
If a judge, like you said, hastoo much meanness, so to speak,
it needs to come out.
Right, how do you do that?
That's a great question, Idon't know.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Now there's an oversight committee on judges,
correct Of course?
Is there any way that theoversight committee, the judges,
the other people that might beinvolved, could sit in a room
and talk it all out?
Speaker 2 (16:14):
You know, theoretically, what would happen
is someone would have to file acomplaint.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
Right, and that's, you know, just like anything in
life.
You know, when you have peoplewho are upset, either at a
lawyer, at a judge at something,set either at a lawyer at a
judge at something, there'salways a bar, a state bar, that
can either, you know, you file acomplaint.
That's one way, so to speak,right, but I think ultimately,
(16:39):
at the end of the day, anelection is just that.
You know, here we recently hadan election a couple months ago,
and a lot of the judges thatwere here are not here anymore.
It was the driving force of thewill of the people.
So I think that's one of thethings that keeps judges in
check.
But that's a very big problemwhere, you know, a lot of judges
become desensitized and theyeither take it for granted, they
(16:59):
don't see the human or theperson that's in front of you,
because you can really changesomeone's life, because judges
really have so much power.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
Yeah, that's so true.
Now, when it comes to elections, does it get to the point where
they just get put in?
Speaker 2 (17:18):
If you have enough name recognition.
If I was Elvis and I ran forsomething you know.
But by and large it's usuallynot like that.
There's very, very few,especially on the judiciary,
where they become such a namerecognition that it's futile to
run against them.
Most of those are either inSenate or in Congress, not in
(17:39):
local judges.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
Yeah, that makes sense.
Let's say you're running for ajudgeship.
You put it out there thatyou're trying to help people.
You're not the hanging judgelike they see on TV.
So many people, if they don'tknow autism or special needs or
mental health, they'll seesomething, not understand it and
say put them in jail and throwaway the key, which is not the
(18:02):
right thing to do.
They have to understand that inthe real world of the legal
system it's not like the moviesor TV.
How do you get that across tothem?
So hopefully they understandmore about what you do.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
It happens all the time, it really does, and the
only way is through educationand to somehow get it out there
that, hey, this is what's goingon, this is the reality of the
situation.
But far, far too many times alot of judges get a bad rap when
it's certainly just not true,and it's very, very difficult,
(18:38):
and a lot of judges get itbecause of it.
It happens all the time.
We have certain things we cansay.
We have certain things we can'tsay.
I can't come back and saysomething we're not allowed to,
you know.
So there are certain things wecan, we can't.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
We just have to basically take yeah, that's
tough, especially where peopledon't really understand how the
legal system actually works.
How do we educate them and getthem at least headed in the
right direction so they can seehow the judicial system works
and then follow it and hopefullyget a better attitude for it
(19:16):
moving forward?
Speaker 2 (19:18):
That's exactly what we're doing now.
My iLivestream is exactly whatwe're doing now.
You get a perspective ofexactly what's going on.
It's complete transparency.
You are looking what happensevery single day in our court.
You get to see the good, youget to see the bad.
It is such an educational toolbecause all too often we get so
(19:42):
many people that are justmisunderstood, and that's when
we step in and just try to help.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
Yeah, I'm so glad that you brought up live
streaming.
That brings up a couple ofquestions when did you start it,
why did you start it and howhas it changed the perception
either positive or negative inwhat you're doing with it?
Speaker 2 (20:07):
If you remember, back in times of COVID, there were
no courts.
There were no basic open courts, because everybody was
homebound.
Believe it or not, criminalitynever ended.
People continued to getarrested, things continued to
happen.
So courts have to stay open.
They have to continue.
We were closed.
How do you get?
Because it's still an openforum.
(20:27):
Courts have to stay open.
They have to be an open forumso that anybody has access to it
that wants to have access to it.
So what we did was we began livestreaming.
What I did was, and what we alldid, what we were required to
do, was to use Zoom as an avenueto be able to communicate with
the lawyers, and we would livestream the Zoom proceedings so
(20:50):
that the entire world could see.
You can go to our court now.
Go to my webpage, click on thelive stream and you can watch,
and I've been doing it since wewere required to back in 2020.
Now, four years later, Icontinue to do it.
It kind of somehow just someonestarted watching and it just
(21:10):
kind of ballooned out of there.
The great thing about it is isthat it provides number one,
transparency.
Number two, it's a greateducational tool, like I've been
saying.
However, the bad part is noteverybody likes to be on it,
right?
So they take issue with beingthrust into it, and it's the
court process.
I'm sorry, when you get introuble, this is what happens.
There's consequence to behavior, you have to learn it, and it's
(21:30):
the court process.
I'm sorry, when you get introuble, this is what happens.
There's consequence to behavior, you have to learn it.
Nowadays, anonymity is justgone right In every aspect of
life.
I would hope that it wouldpossibly be a great deterrent as
well, especially for those who,if you're professional and
you're out there, think beforeyou act, think before you speak.
There is a humongousconsequence now.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
What kind of results have you seen come from this?
You started it because you hadto.
Now you're keeping it going and, of course, there are people
out there that love it.
There are people out there thathate it.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
Sure.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
How have you seen it change, or have you seen it
change the dynamic within yourcourtroom since you started
doing this?
Speaker 2 (22:13):
It doesn't change the dynamic in the courtroom what
I've found, and I'll tell youthat I get a lot of comments and
people that reach out to methat say, hey, thank you for
doing what you're doing.
Because of you, I have reachedout to a long-lost brother.
We've had people that have toldus that they've stopped harming
themselves, they've checkedinto rehab because they see how
(22:35):
other people go through things,they empathize with them, they
see what good can come from it,and so they in turn do the same
thing.
I promise you I can't tell youhow many people have reached out
to us in such a positive waythat it has impacted them,
seeking mental health treatment,prevention from suicide, really
seeking drug treatment.
(22:56):
I mean, I can give you letterafter letter, email after email,
but of course there's always anegative as well, right To
people who don't like it, andthere's like there's going to be
that with every aspect of lifelike there's going to be that
with every aspect of life.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
I think it's just great that, because I never
thought of it from that angle,that showing this, that other
people could use it as a tool toshow their son or daughter or
relative that hey look, this iswhat this person's going through
, You're doing the same thingand you can't use your ADHD or
whatever as an excuse.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
I've had teachers that have reached out to us that
they show it to their classroom.
An excuse.
I've had teachers that havereached out to us that they show
it to their classroom, and soI've had other teachers that say
, hey, can you come and speak toour class?
So it's from that aspect that Ithink that it's really just a
great resource and aneducational tool, because now
our young children and our youngadults, they don't think before
(23:47):
acting.
Our young children and ouryoung adults, they don't think
before acting.
God knows that I was 17 and 18too, right, but when you see
what happens and when you seethe consequence, right.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
Well, this has been great.
So, of course, now this podcastis about autism and mental
health and all that.
What would you like to sayregarding your courtroom and the
mental health and autism thatyou think that people listening
to would benefit from hearing?
Speaker 2 (24:15):
one of the biggest problems in life and I think
that this can really play ineverything is patience.
If people had more patience inevery aspect of life, we would
just be a better overall, betterworld.
Patience whether you are beinga judge, you're patients.
Whether you are being a judge,you're judging.
Whether you are a districtattorney, whether you're on
probation and dealing withsomeone.
(24:35):
Whether you are talking tosomeone who has autism and
mental health issue and you'retrying to get through to them
and you're not getting throughand you become so agitated that
everybody explodes.
Just patients has such aagitated that everybody explodes
.
Just patience has such a virtue.
It's a very difficult trait tohave to practice and if
everybody did and just took asecond to reflect, I really
(24:58):
think it would help in everyaspect of life, especially when
we're talking about mentalhealth.
It's not hard.
I mean, I'm sorry, it's verydifficult dealing with,
participating and speaking tosomeone who may have mental
health issues or autism.
It's not easy and if you don'thave patience, it's even going
to be more difficult.
Not only are you going to befrustrated, but the other person
(25:18):
is going to be doublefrustrated because think about
them.
They're trying to get to youand they have an issue trying to
express themselves.
Autism is a very tricky thingbut if you have patience and you
show compassion and love towardthat person, once they start to
trust you they'll open up andhopefully you will learn how to
deal with the autism and how tobest communicate and perhaps
(25:43):
help them.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
Yeah, yeah, I think that's great.
Many people have forgotten thedefinition of the word patience.
This is one analogy that I givequite a bit.
Many people have forgotten thedefinition of the word patience.
Speaker 2 (25:50):
This is one analogy that I give quite a bit.
I was pulled over quite a whileago and I had an officer come
up to me extremely arrogant.
Just hey, man, why'd you dothat?
Why did you run that stop sign?
I knew I stopped.
Okay, maybe I stopped for asecond.
I didn't stop for three seconds.
So I looked at the officer andI said you know, I'm sorry, man,
I'm an idiot.
So I looked at the officer andI said you know, I'm sorry, man,
I'm an idiot.
(26:10):
I just truly I'm sorry and I'lldo better next time.
He let me go.
If I would have been aggressiveto him, what would have happened
?
If you practice that ineveryday life with mental health
, with autism, when they'retrying to combat it to you, and
you really shower them with loveand empathy, I mean, this guy's
a limit.
(26:31):
So that's what we do in ourcourt and actually in all of our
courts here, right, Not just me, our entire brethren, and I
think that hopefully we'll makea change, because that's what we
try to do, you know just try tomake everyone better when they
leave.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
Yeah, that's a great model and hopefully many people
around the country catch on tothat.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
I don't know.
You know it's one person at atime, one step at a time, and
you know I'm not going to behere for long, but I hope that
we can touch as many lives asyou have with your podcast.
I mean, you've done it inhundreds of thousands.
Me, I'm just one at a time, butyou know that's all it takes.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
One at a time, you know that's fantastic.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
I really appreciate it.
Thanks again.
Thanks for taking the time outof your busy schedule to listen
to our show today.
We hope that you enjoyed it asmuch as we enjoyed bringing it
to you.
If you know anyone that wouldlike to tell us their story,
(27:40):
send them to TonyMantorcomContact then they can give us
their information so one daythey may be a guest on our show.
One more thing we ask telleveryone everywhere about why
Not Me, the world, theconversations we're having and
(28:01):
the inspiration our guests giveto everyone everywhere that you
are not alone in this world.
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