April 21, 2025 • 26 mins
Judge Kim Taylor shares her journey as a pioneering female judge and mother of a son with autism, revealing how personal experience fueled her advocacy for autism awareness in the criminal justice system.
Her work began after learning about Sidney Templeton, a young man with autism who died in police custody due to officers' lack of understanding about his condition.
• First woman elected as district court judge in Alexander-Iredell-Davie County in 1986
• Created a task force that made autism training mandatory for North Carolina law enforcement
• Developed educational resources including "Autism in the Criminal Justice System" video
• Expanded advocacy through "Safe and Sound" committee with the Autism Society of America
• Advocating for national legislation for more uniform autism training across jurisdictions
• Emphasizes prevention and diversion programs over incarceration for those with autism
• Identifies the need for compassion and understanding in the legal system
• Won her initial election by just 75 votes across four counties
• Highlights how perspective changes when issues affect someone personally
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to why Not Me ?
The World Podcast, hosted byTony Mantor, broadcasting from
Music City, usa, nashville,tennessee.
Join us as our guests tell ustheir stories.
Some will make you laugh, somewill make you cry.
Their stories Some will makeyou laugh, some will make you
(00:30):
cry.
Real life people who willinspire and show that you are
not alone in this world.
Hopefully, you gain moreawareness, acceptance and a
better understanding for autismaround the world.
Hi, I'm Tony Mantor.
(00:52):
Welcome to why Not Me?
The World Humanity OverHandcuffs the Silent Crisis
special event.
Today we have the pleasure ofhosting Judge Kim Taylor.
She began her career in privatepractice before running for a
judicial position.
Notably, she was the firstwoman to run for that position.
After believing that she hadlost the election, she
(01:13):
discovered the next day she hadwon the election by a mere 75
votes over four counties.
As a mother of an autistic son,judge Taylor is a passionate
advocate for autism support.
It's an honor to have her shareher inspiring story with us.
I appreciate you coming on.
Can you tell us how you came tohelp autistic people when they
(01:35):
came in front of you during yoursessions at court?
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Well, I was elected district court judge in
Alexander-Irving-Davidson Countyin 1986.
At that time I had one childwho did not have autism.
In 1987, my second child wasborn.
His name is Garrett and he wasborn in April of 87.
We hadn't heard much about whatautism was at that point, so we
(02:03):
were just trying to findresources and try to figure out
what help he needed and how hewas going to be as he grew older
.
We did the hearing test,neurological test and such, and
eventually an organizationcalled TEACH it's T-E-A-C-C-H
which is part of the Universityof North Carolina at Chapel Hill
did testing and told us that hehad autism and of course this
(02:24):
was around age three.
So at that point we tried toget some school resources in
place.
There weren't any resources inAlexander County, north Carolina
, at the time, but I have asister-in-law who was director
of exceptional children'sprograms and she was able to get
some things in place.
Now, of course, we have a lotmore people on the spectrum and
they have classroom for peoplewith autism people on the
(02:47):
spectrum and they have classroomfor people with autism.
As he grew older, he becameeventually self-injurious.
Around the age of 11, hestarted hitting himself, hurting
himself a lot.
I would be called from thebench and you got to come get
him from school.
He'd hit himself and you knowit was just pretty terrible.
I continued on the bench.
I can't recall if I was inSuperior District I think I was
a Superior Court judge at thetime but my husband was working
as a deputy sheriff in IredellCounty and told me after his
(03:11):
work shift that he believedsomeone with autism had died in
police custody.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
Wow, that's pretty serious.
What'd you find out?
Speaker 2 (03:19):
We were very concerned, upset about it and we
got the details of whathappened.
His name was Sidney Templeton.
He was in his early 20s and hada caregiver in Stateful North
Carolina and apparently he had ameltdown with the caregiver
because they thought because hismedication had changed or
something had happened in hisenvironment that caused him to
(03:39):
have a meltdown.
She called 911.
Officers went out, didn'tunderstand.
She told them, we believe atthe scene she told them that he
was autistic and couldn't speak.
But they didn't know whatautism was.
They thought in fact somebodytold us that they thought she
said autistic.
We thought then well, we've gotto do something to educate
(04:00):
versus fine law enforcement.
You know people that might runinto our kids and not know
what's going on with them.
So we were able to get a taskforce together involving law
enforcement.
We had people from the AutismSociety, we had district
attorneys, we had a broad rangeof people really that were
willing to work with us and wewere able to get a joint task
(04:21):
force with the North Carolinalegislature, who we met
periodically, you know, and hadpresentations from various
interested parties and were ableto develop some plans and some
changes that we can make.
We were able to get basic lawenforcement training to make it
mandatory that people going intolaw enforcement would get
training about autism, and it'smy understanding that they still
(04:44):
have to have annual trainingclasses.
I'm not sure that they're asgood as we would like them to be
, but they do have some trainingat least to recognize what the
word is and how somebody mightact.
We were able to do a video.
It's called Autism in theCriminal Justice System,
available through Dennis DeBalt,which is his company is Legacy
Productions, and the video isavailable through him, although
(05:07):
the state of North Carolina paidthe production video but he can
.
He sells the DVD.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
That sounds great.
What does it cover?
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Yeah, and it's about an autistic.
We had a real autistic personwho was charged with some sort
of online pornography ordistributing pornography, which
is kind of a typical offense, asautistic males generally get
older and they think thatsomething that's on TV or comes
on the Internet is okay to watch, and so they don't really
(05:35):
understand that it's illegal tobe watching that stuff or
sending it or anything.
So we did the video andbasically went through some
explanation how someone on thespectrum might act and that they
have difficulty with eyecontact, some difficulty with
understanding instructions andcan even get you know, defensive
or aggressive at times, youknow when they feel they're
(05:57):
under threat.
We've continued to try toeducate law enforcement and
still have some pretty badincidents happening.
Hopefully we've made somedifference, but one of the
things that we did and weexpanded this group to the
Autism Society of America and itbecame a committee called Safe
and Sound through the AutismSociety of America and we had
(06:20):
representatives from all overthe country working with us on
Safe and Sound and going arounddoing trainings and developing
training materials and such, anda lot of those people are still
out there, as I understand.
They're still out there working.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
That's good to hear.
Are the first responders theones that still seem to be out
there?
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Yeah, a lot of these folks are first responders, law
enforcement, who have kids onthe spectrum and who kind of
made it their life's purpose totry to help.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
Yeah, that's great.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
Yeah, it is great, but I wish we had more resources
and I wish we had a morenational legislation, if that
makes sense, because it's spotty, it's here and there, virginia
is trying to do stuff,everybody's trying to do their
own thing, and I wish we hadsomething more uniform.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
Yeah, I agree.
I've spoken with two formerHouse of Representatives.
They say national legislationis needed.
Yeah good, I think there's astate senator in Florida that's
trying to get some locallegislation as well.
I do agree with you, though.
We need more nationallegislation so that way it's not
just local spots around thecountry.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
Right right.
The thing about it is, saythere's a bad incident and
somebody with autism is hurt orkilled in a law enforcement
custody or you know, with anyfirst responder.
It hurts the family of thatperson.
The law enforcement officer orwhoever the individual is that
you know is involved with thescenario, is usually damaged by
(07:51):
it.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
So we're not trying to punish anybody, we're just
trying to educate you so thatyou don't run into a situation
don't know what to do.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
Yeah, that's what this podcast is about.
It's about talking with peoplelike yourself judges, lawyers
and anyone that works within thelegal system.
It's not about pointing fingersat anyone, just trying to give
information so it can be betterfor everyone and make the system
work that much smoother.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Right, right, and that's a wonderful thing and one
of the first things I think Iwould tell anybody your 911
system, emergency communications, if they have information that
tells you, oh, there's someonein that household that may have
autism.
Whoever goes needs to know thatright up front so that when
(08:40):
they go they know what to expectand you know the person they
have women to eye contact andverbal ability and such.
I think we've got that in placepretty much around most of
North Carolina.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
Yeah, yeah, that's a good thing.
The more people know, thebetter things are.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
Right right.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
So are you still active?
I know that you're an emergencyjudge still.
Are you still involved with allthese agencies that you was
working with to help theautistic people?
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Well, here's what happened.
I've become I guess it'sprobably happened to a lot of
parents as your child gets olderand they don't go to school.
Somebody has to be with them atleast with my son, sure and so
I've had to back off a lot ofthe outside things I do, because
I'm taking care of him a lot,but I do still try to stay
(09:36):
involved and that has helped alot with that because it's just
making me do things and I thinkhe's doing a whole lot, you know
for at least in North Carolinaand nationally.
So I'm working some with him.
And then I have taken emailsand calls from parents trying to
help them with resources andsuch.
(09:58):
I'm not traveling around like Iused to to do training,
although if the internet wasdead or maybe I could.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
Yeah, the internet has definitely made the world a
lot smaller.
Sometimes that's good,sometimes that's not so good,
but, as they say, it's betterthan nothing.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
Well, yeah, if you got to communicate, you know,
with someone in, say, England.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
Yeah, I talk with a lot of people across the pond.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
You don't necessarily have to go there.
You could actually, you know,join some sort of a website or a
meeting, zoom meeting orsomething.
So that does help with that.
And the funny thing is, I don'tknow if you've seen this, but
everybody's got the same problem.
If you talk to a parent, say inAustralia, their problems are
the same as ours, kind of auniversal thing that's happening
(10:46):
in larger and larger numbers.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
Yes, I get a chance to talk with people from all
around the world.
I had a lady ask me just theother day of all the people that
I talk with, what do I findthat's different from country to
country.
My answer was pretty muchnothing.
Everyone has about the samestory.
The only difference is in theplace that they live and how
(11:08):
their countries or areas supportautism and how their countries
or areas support autism.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
I think that's wonderful that you're getting
ideas from other parts of theworld, because sometimes we feel
out here in North Carolina wedon't feel that we're getting
all that information, so it'sgreat that you're doing it.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
Yeah, this podcast has worked out well Now since
you started as a judge up untilnow.
What are some of the thingsthat you see different in how
people are handling autism?
Speaker 2 (11:39):
Well, you have the crisis intervention teams, which
is great, and some of thelarger towns and cities have
very well turned avert someonewith special needs into help
rather than jail or prison.
I was a member of the board ofthe Disability Rights of North
Carolina, which is a federalorganization, and one of the
primary goals of that group isto see how many people with
(12:02):
disabilities are beingincarcerated and wrongfully
being incarcerated, becausewhatever they did was related to
their disability, not due toany mental intention to hurt
anybody.
So I worked with them for along time years, also seeing
that people with autism aregetting a whole lot better
resources at an early age, and Ithink that really helps, you
(12:25):
know, for them to become verbaland, you know, going to school,
and I had one client Irepresented, the mom.
That young man graduated fromcollege recently and is doing
great.
He's going to be a beneficialperson for everybody.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
Yeah, now you had compassion as a judge because
you lived it.
How do you think we can getacross to other judges, district
attorneys, adas, so that we canshow them that this is not just
a black or white situation?
There's a lot of gray area inthe middle and they need to help
figure this thing out foreveryone.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
Well, and that's a great question it's very
difficult At least I was alsohead of the education committee
for district court judges andpeople are fighting for a little
bit of time to come to thejudges and make presentations.
We only have conferences everywell, twice a year.
(13:26):
So the best thing we could do,I think, as far as education,
would be to develop somethingthat goes out, that people will
watch, that's on point withtheir job, that they think is
relevant.
And well, sometimes you got tomake people watch stuff sadly.
But I think these professionalsfor the most part the judges
(13:49):
that I know I guess you canbecome really mean and angry,
but a lot of people at lawschool and into judicial system
because they want to help peopleand if you could show them that
this is helping and this is not, you know, somebody just made
up this diagnosis so they canget out of something, because I
think that's what there are alot of skepticism out there.
(14:09):
You know you've got autismright.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
Right.
I've heard that before.
There's a judge down in Miami.
He just retired.
He works with a facility, itjust happens to be very large.
His opinion is, if you can takeand put them in a facility
where they can get treatment,the chances of that same person
showing up in front of a judgeagain is rare.
(14:36):
So he believes that this is thebest way to work.
The system is by helping themand diverting them to care
facilities.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Right, and that's true of a lot of different
diagnosis.
And even you know people withaddiction problems.
So yeah, actually I certainlyagree with that.
And even you know people withaddiction problems, um, so yeah,
actually I certainly agree withthat.
And you know, if you sticksomebody in prison here in north
carolina, they might not getany kind of help for years, and
then they come out and they're.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
Nothing has caused them not to do what it was they
did before do you see, or haveyou seen the judges in your area
starting to see what's going onand want to help some of these
people that need the help, suchas autistic people and those
with mental health issues?
Speaker 2 (15:23):
I have seen more open-mindedness about it because
a lot of people have somebodyor know somebody that has autism
.
It's so prevalent now and youknow I can go and speak to a
room full of lawyers and judgesand usually I can ask them, you
know, raise your hand if youknow somebody on the autism
spectrum or have a relative youknow.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
and three-fourths, of the room will raise their hand
Right.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
So I think in that sense people are more
understanding when it hits themat home, Judges are just like
any other people.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
Lawyers and judges are just like any other group of
people and you've got to showthem.
I think that this is going tohelp not only your profession,
but also the people who areaffected by autism and their
families.
And, as you say, if you'reconcerned about resources, it
certainly helps to divert peoplefrom the jails and prisons.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
Yeah, exactly what do you see happening now?
You've been on the bench.
You still are on the bench,even though it's an emergency
judge.
You see all these things thatare happening in the country
with autism and mental health.
What do you think actuallyneeds to happen for everything
(16:38):
to take a turn and start tochange?
Speaker 2 (16:41):
Well, the situation in our country right now to me
is pretty scary, because itseems to me that compassion
people are not doing anythingbased on compassion or
attempting to help other people,and I don't know what you do,
other than try to elect somebodythat does have those qualities,
because right now, it seemsthat a lot of the folks that
we're putting into governmentare just concerned about
(17:03):
promoting themselves or somemonetary, you know, issue yeah,
I agree, compassion is somethingthat's needed yeah, I'm not
seeing much of it how do you seemaking the legal system a
little more tolerant?
Speaker 1 (17:17):
You've been tolerant.
You know judges that have beentolerant.
How do we expand that?
Speaker 2 (17:23):
Judges are elected here.
They're elected.
You know, partisan elections.
We used to have nonpartisan butpartisan elections.
What you've got to do is makeit part of their platform, and
part of the way you get electedis to show people that you have
the ability to understand what'sdifferent between right and
wrong.
You know what's going to makeyour society safer, what's going
(17:44):
to save your society resources.
You know what's going to keeppeople from coming back to the
courthouse and courtroom overand over, because I can tell you
I have sentenced people.
I've done it for so long.
I've sentenced people and thensentenced their grandparents and
their grandchildren.
It's sad that you see this.
I guess a lot of it depends onwhere you are, geographically
(18:05):
also, because if you grew up ina metropolitan area like, for
example, I grew up in theTriangle, which is
Raleigh-Durham-Capitol Hill, andyou know there are a lot of
different folks there, you knowit's a lot of university people,
educated people, people of alldifferent walks of society and I
grew up with that kind ofenvironment.
(18:26):
But somebody that grows up, say, in rural North Carolina or
maybe rural Tennessee, itdoesn't see anybody except the
people that are like them.
You know they only see thepeople that look like him, talk
like they do, you know, and andthey don't expand their beliefs
and they don't expand theirhorizons to understand why other
(18:47):
people do things the way theydo.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
Yeah, yeah, I definitely agree with that.
It's uh, the world has becomesmaller, you know so.
So it's one of those thingswhere, where we have to take and
and learn from other people.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
Yeah, we do, we do and I'm not lost hope because,
as I say, even when we did thisthing back in 2005 with the
legislature, I had districtattorneys and law enforcement,
all these folks that werewanting to help and wanting to
be a part of our educationalefforts, so it wasn't as bad as
(19:19):
you might think.
It seems to me, once you getpeople on an individual basis to
care versus a large group ofpeople, that I don't care.
I'm wrong, you know.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
Yeah, I agree that comes a lot from understanding.
I think more that we put outthere so that people can
understand, I think more that weput out there so that people
can understand, hopefully themore people will change their
attitude and be willing to help.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
That's true.
That's true.
And judges and VAs, you know wefocus so much on consequences,
but let's focus some onpreventative measures.
You know, what can we do todivert this from the court
system?
Speaker 1 (19:58):
What would you like to tell people that they need to
hear, about autism, about thelegal system, some of the things
that you think are realimportant, that you've done, or
others?
Speaker 2 (20:11):
have done that people should hear.
I think probably the mostimportant thing is to open your
mind to differences among peopleand if you're going to be
working with the public, andespecially in the court system,
where you're makinglife-changing decisions for
people and for families, youneed to understand what these
terms mean.
If you hear the word, you knowautism, you need to know that
(20:32):
it's a developmental disability.
People don't get cured of it.
They can do better and functionbetter, but they're not going
to be cured.
And if they actually have thediagnosis, there are certain
things similar among folks onthe spectrum and in your mind
too possibilities.
I think that this was true backfive or six years ago, maybe
still true.
(20:52):
We had the University of NorthCarolina have a program to
diagnose and try to trainclassroom teachers, for example,
about how to deal with my ownspectrum, and so the military
started sending people withfamilies with someone on
spectrum to North Carolina andwe just had a large influx of
people coming here.
You know that needed theseresources.
(21:12):
I've been told, and I'm notsure it's true, but I've been
told that other states now areadvanced over North Carolina.
I don't know how do you makepeople have incentive to care.
I don't know how you do that.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
Unfortunately we are a country.
It's not a problem until it's aproblem for our family.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
Unfortunately, that's the way a lot of people think.
We just have to find a way toget them out of that mindset.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
I'll give you an example of that, because I've
seen it personally.
Somebody you know.
You talk to people out drivingwhile impaired.
Oh, put them in jail, shootthem, blah, blah, blah.
And then it's their son ortheir uncle or somebody in their
family.
Oh, but he's a nice guy andyou're exactly right, Nobody
cares until it affects theirfamily and their lives.
(21:58):
And autism can happen inanybody's family.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
Absolutely.
Autism can happen to anyone'sfamily.
It can be rich, it can be poor.
It doesn't choose.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
That's fine.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
Before we close this out, I'm curious on how you
actually got involved in thelegal system.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
Well, I went to undergrad at Duke and I wanted
to go to medical school.
My mom was a registered nurseand my dad was a scientist.
Didn't really like thechemistry and when I got out of
school I went and worked forSocial Security Disability.
That was the worst job ever.
I did that for a year in acubicle where you have to tell
(22:38):
people they can't get disabilityand I try to convince you to
turn them down.
So then I decided I'm going togo to law school.
I loved law school.
A lot of people didn't like it,but I loved it.
I was there with the peoplethat understood me and how I
thought I really loved it.
And still my associate was mostattorneys.
They're not bad people.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
When you graduated law school, did you go directly
into the court system or did youstart a private practice?
Speaker 2 (23:04):
When I got out of law school I married a guy from up
here in Alexander County and westarted law practice together
and I did just about everything.
In a solo law practice or smallpractice like that you can't
really specialize.
So I was doing criminal defense, family law too.
I would do title searches andthieves and such, learned a lot.
(23:26):
Uh, that was when I was 25.
And then when I was 30 I ranfor district court judge
position.
That was open up here and nowoman had ever run for it before
up here.
The guy that was runningagainst me, um, he came to me he
said well, is this really notyour turn?
You're only 30 years old, youknow.
You know it's really.
(23:46):
You know you need to wait.
And I said, no, I'm gonna do it.
And I won by 75 votes with fourcounties, and the night of the
election the newspaper publishedthat my opponent had won.
I went to bed thinking that hewon and then the next morning,
one precinct in Arnold County,the sheath had broken and they
(24:07):
came through with me and I won.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
Yeah, Wow, that's a great story.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Yeah, it was.
It's all the first female jackup here in either district or
peer court.
There are a lot of them now andI'm glad about it because I
think sometimes, you know, ithelps that women have had to
experience discrimination andsuch.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
Yeah, absolutely.
Plus, you have an autistic sonthat gives you actual insight on
what people go through on adaily basis actual insight on
what people go through on adaily basis.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
Yeah, and I don't know how you really educate
people about what's going to behappening.
I probably didn't say that verywell, but if you live in a
large city, you might have aplace where your adult son can
go to some sort of a work joband some sort of you sort of
place where they're safe butthey're with other people.
There's nothing much up here inrural Western North Carolina
(25:07):
and it seems like there's lessnow.
There never was.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
This has been great Great conversation, great
information.
I really appreciate you takingthe time to come on.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
Yeah, I enjoyed it.
Thank you for asking me in.
Thank you for doing what you'redoing.
I think it's going to bewonderful and maybe you can
write a book or a few booksabout it.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
Well, you never know about that.
Thanks again.
Thanks for taking the time outof your busy schedule to listen
to our show today.
We hope that you enjoyed it asmuch as we enjoyed bringing it
to you.
If you know anyone that wouldlike to tell us their story,
(25:50):
send them to TonyMantorcomContact then they can give us
their information so one daythey may be a guest on our show.
One more thing we ask telleveryone everywhere about why
not me, the world, theconversations we're having and
(26:11):
the inspiration our guests giveto everyone everywhere that you
are not alone in this world.
Welcome to why Not Me ?
The World Podcast, hosted byTony Mantor, broadcasting from
Music City, usa, nashville,tennessee.
Join us as our guests tell ustheir stories.
Some will make you laugh, somewill make you cry.
Their stories Some will makeyou laugh, some will make you
(00:30):
cry.
Real life people who willinspire and show that you are
not alone in this world.
Hopefully, you gain moreawareness, acceptance and a
better understanding for autismaround the world.
Hi, I'm Tony Mantor.
(00:52):
Welcome to why Not Me?
The World Humanity OverHandcuffs the Silent Crisis
special event.
Today we have the pleasure ofhosting Judge Kim Taylor.
She began her career in privatepractice before running for a
judicial position.
Notably, she was the firstwoman to run for that position.
After believing that she hadlost the election, she
(01:13):
discovered the next day she hadwon the election by a mere 75
votes over four counties.
As a mother of an autistic son,judge Taylor is a passionate
advocate for autism support.
It's an honor to have her shareher inspiring story with us.
I appreciate you coming on.
Can you tell us how you came tohelp autistic people when they
(01:35):
came in front of you during yoursessions at court?
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Well, I was elected district court judge in
Alexander-Irving-Davidson Countyin 1986.
At that time I had one childwho did not have autism.
In 1987, my second child wasborn.
His name is Garrett and he wasborn in April of 87.
We hadn't heard much about whatautism was at that point, so we
(02:03):
were just trying to findresources and try to figure out
what help he needed and how hewas going to be as he grew older
.
We did the hearing test,neurological test and such, and
eventually an organizationcalled TEACH it's T-E-A-C-C-H
which is part of the Universityof North Carolina at Chapel Hill
did testing and told us that hehad autism and of course this
(02:24):
was around age three.
So at that point we tried toget some school resources in
place.
There weren't any resources inAlexander County, north Carolina
, at the time, but I have asister-in-law who was director
of exceptional children'sprograms and she was able to get
some things in place.
Now, of course, we have a lotmore people on the spectrum and
they have classroom for peoplewith autism people on the
(02:47):
spectrum and they have classroomfor people with autism.
As he grew older, he becameeventually self-injurious.
Around the age of 11, hestarted hitting himself, hurting
himself a lot.
I would be called from thebench and you got to come get
him from school.
He'd hit himself and you knowit was just pretty terrible.
I continued on the bench.
I can't recall if I was inSuperior District I think I was
a Superior Court judge at thetime but my husband was working
as a deputy sheriff in IredellCounty and told me after his
(03:11):
work shift that he believedsomeone with autism had died in
police custody.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
Wow, that's pretty serious.
What'd you find out?
Speaker 2 (03:19):
We were very concerned, upset about it and we
got the details of whathappened.
His name was Sidney Templeton.
He was in his early 20s and hada caregiver in Stateful North
Carolina and apparently he had ameltdown with the caregiver
because they thought because hismedication had changed or
something had happened in hisenvironment that caused him to
(03:39):
have a meltdown.
She called 911.
Officers went out, didn'tunderstand.
She told them, we believe atthe scene she told them that he
was autistic and couldn't speak.
But they didn't know whatautism was.
They thought in fact somebodytold us that they thought she
said autistic.
We thought then well, we've gotto do something to educate
(04:00):
versus fine law enforcement.
You know people that might runinto our kids and not know
what's going on with them.
So we were able to get a taskforce together involving law
enforcement.
We had people from the AutismSociety, we had district
attorneys, we had a broad rangeof people really that were
willing to work with us and wewere able to get a joint task
(04:21):
force with the North Carolinalegislature, who we met
periodically, you know, and hadpresentations from various
interested parties and were ableto develop some plans and some
changes that we can make.
We were able to get basic lawenforcement training to make it
mandatory that people going intolaw enforcement would get
training about autism, and it'smy understanding that they still
(04:44):
have to have annual trainingclasses.
I'm not sure that they're asgood as we would like them to be
, but they do have some trainingat least to recognize what the
word is and how somebody mightact.
We were able to do a video.
It's called Autism in theCriminal Justice System,
available through Dennis DeBalt,which is his company is Legacy
Productions, and the video isavailable through him, although
(05:07):
the state of North Carolina paidthe production video but he can
.
He sells the DVD.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
That sounds great.
What does it cover?
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Yeah, and it's about an autistic.
We had a real autistic personwho was charged with some sort
of online pornography ordistributing pornography, which
is kind of a typical offense, asautistic males generally get
older and they think thatsomething that's on TV or comes
on the Internet is okay to watch, and so they don't really
(05:35):
understand that it's illegal tobe watching that stuff or
sending it or anything.
So we did the video andbasically went through some
explanation how someone on thespectrum might act and that they
have difficulty with eyecontact, some difficulty with
understanding instructions andcan even get you know, defensive
or aggressive at times, youknow when they feel they're
(05:57):
under threat.
We've continued to try toeducate law enforcement and
still have some pretty badincidents happening.
Hopefully we've made somedifference, but one of the
things that we did and weexpanded this group to the
Autism Society of America and itbecame a committee called Safe
and Sound through the AutismSociety of America and we had
(06:20):
representatives from all overthe country working with us on
Safe and Sound and going arounddoing trainings and developing
training materials and such, anda lot of those people are still
out there, as I understand.
They're still out there working.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
That's good to hear.
Are the first responders theones that still seem to be out
there?
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Yeah, a lot of these folks are first responders, law
enforcement, who have kids onthe spectrum and who kind of
made it their life's purpose totry to help.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
Yeah, that's great.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
Yeah, it is great, but I wish we had more resources
and I wish we had a morenational legislation, if that
makes sense, because it's spotty, it's here and there, virginia
is trying to do stuff,everybody's trying to do their
own thing, and I wish we hadsomething more uniform.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
Yeah, I agree.
I've spoken with two formerHouse of Representatives.
They say national legislationis needed.
Yeah good, I think there's astate senator in Florida that's
trying to get some locallegislation as well.
I do agree with you, though.
We need more nationallegislation so that way it's not
just local spots around thecountry.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
Right right.
The thing about it is, saythere's a bad incident and
somebody with autism is hurt orkilled in a law enforcement
custody or you know, with anyfirst responder.
It hurts the family of thatperson.
The law enforcement officer orwhoever the individual is that
you know is involved with thescenario, is usually damaged by
(07:51):
it.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
So we're not trying to punish anybody, we're just
trying to educate you so thatyou don't run into a situation
don't know what to do.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
Yeah, that's what this podcast is about.
It's about talking with peoplelike yourself judges, lawyers
and anyone that works within thelegal system.
It's not about pointing fingersat anyone, just trying to give
information so it can be betterfor everyone and make the system
work that much smoother.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Right, right, and that's a wonderful thing and one
of the first things I think Iwould tell anybody your 911
system, emergency communications, if they have information that
tells you, oh, there's someonein that household that may have
autism.
Whoever goes needs to know thatright up front so that when
(08:40):
they go they know what to expectand you know the person they
have women to eye contact andverbal ability and such.
I think we've got that in placepretty much around most of
North Carolina.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
Yeah, yeah, that's a good thing.
The more people know, thebetter things are.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
Right right.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
So are you still active?
I know that you're an emergencyjudge still.
Are you still involved with allthese agencies that you was
working with to help theautistic people?
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Well, here's what happened.
I've become I guess it'sprobably happened to a lot of
parents as your child gets olderand they don't go to school.
Somebody has to be with them atleast with my son, sure and so
I've had to back off a lot ofthe outside things I do, because
I'm taking care of him a lot,but I do still try to stay
(09:36):
involved and that has helped alot with that because it's just
making me do things and I thinkhe's doing a whole lot, you know
for at least in North Carolinaand nationally.
So I'm working some with him.
And then I have taken emailsand calls from parents trying to
help them with resources andsuch.
(09:58):
I'm not traveling around like Iused to to do training,
although if the internet wasdead or maybe I could.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
Yeah, the internet has definitely made the world a
lot smaller.
Sometimes that's good,sometimes that's not so good,
but, as they say, it's betterthan nothing.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
Well, yeah, if you got to communicate, you know,
with someone in, say, England.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
Yeah, I talk with a lot of people across the pond.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
You don't necessarily have to go there.
You could actually, you know,join some sort of a website or a
meeting, zoom meeting orsomething.
So that does help with that.
And the funny thing is, I don'tknow if you've seen this, but
everybody's got the same problem.
If you talk to a parent, say inAustralia, their problems are
the same as ours, kind of auniversal thing that's happening
(10:46):
in larger and larger numbers.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
Yes, I get a chance to talk with people from all
around the world.
I had a lady ask me just theother day of all the people that
I talk with, what do I findthat's different from country to
country.
My answer was pretty muchnothing.
Everyone has about the samestory.
The only difference is in theplace that they live and how
(11:08):
their countries or areas supportautism and how their countries
or areas support autism.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
I think that's wonderful that you're getting
ideas from other parts of theworld, because sometimes we feel
out here in North Carolina wedon't feel that we're getting
all that information, so it'sgreat that you're doing it.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
Yeah, this podcast has worked out well Now since
you started as a judge up untilnow.
What are some of the thingsthat you see different in how
people are handling autism?
Speaker 2 (11:39):
Well, you have the crisis intervention teams, which
is great, and some of thelarger towns and cities have
very well turned avert someonewith special needs into help
rather than jail or prison.
I was a member of the board ofthe Disability Rights of North
Carolina, which is a federalorganization, and one of the
primary goals of that group isto see how many people with
(12:02):
disabilities are beingincarcerated and wrongfully
being incarcerated, becausewhatever they did was related to
their disability, not due toany mental intention to hurt
anybody.
So I worked with them for along time years, also seeing
that people with autism aregetting a whole lot better
resources at an early age, and Ithink that really helps, you
(12:25):
know, for them to become verbaland, you know, going to school,
and I had one client Irepresented, the mom.
That young man graduated fromcollege recently and is doing
great.
He's going to be a beneficialperson for everybody.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
Yeah, now you had compassion as a judge because
you lived it.
How do you think we can getacross to other judges, district
attorneys, adas, so that we canshow them that this is not just
a black or white situation?
There's a lot of gray area inthe middle and they need to help
figure this thing out foreveryone.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
Well, and that's a great question it's very
difficult At least I was alsohead of the education committee
for district court judges andpeople are fighting for a little
bit of time to come to thejudges and make presentations.
We only have conferences everywell, twice a year.
(13:26):
So the best thing we could do,I think, as far as education,
would be to develop somethingthat goes out, that people will
watch, that's on point withtheir job, that they think is
relevant.
And well, sometimes you got tomake people watch stuff sadly.
But I think these professionalsfor the most part the judges
(13:49):
that I know I guess you canbecome really mean and angry,
but a lot of people at lawschool and into judicial system
because they want to help peopleand if you could show them that
this is helping and this is not, you know, somebody just made
up this diagnosis so they canget out of something, because I
think that's what there are alot of skepticism out there.
(14:09):
You know you've got autismright.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
Right.
I've heard that before.
There's a judge down in Miami.
He just retired.
He works with a facility, itjust happens to be very large.
His opinion is, if you can takeand put them in a facility
where they can get treatment,the chances of that same person
showing up in front of a judgeagain is rare.
(14:36):
So he believes that this is thebest way to work.
The system is by helping themand diverting them to care
facilities.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Right, and that's true of a lot of different
diagnosis.
And even you know people withaddiction problems.
So yeah, actually I certainlyagree with that.
And even you know people withaddiction problems, um, so yeah,
actually I certainly agree withthat.
And you know, if you sticksomebody in prison here in north
carolina, they might not getany kind of help for years, and
then they come out and they're.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
Nothing has caused them not to do what it was they
did before do you see, or haveyou seen the judges in your area
starting to see what's going onand want to help some of these
people that need the help, suchas autistic people and those
with mental health issues?
Speaker 2 (15:23):
I have seen more open-mindedness about it because
a lot of people have somebodyor know somebody that has autism
.
It's so prevalent now and youknow I can go and speak to a
room full of lawyers and judgesand usually I can ask them, you
know, raise your hand if youknow somebody on the autism
spectrum or have a relative youknow.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
and three-fourths, of the room will raise their hand
Right.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
So I think in that sense people are more
understanding when it hits themat home, Judges are just like
any other people.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
Lawyers and judges are just like any other group of
people and you've got to showthem.
I think that this is going tohelp not only your profession,
but also the people who areaffected by autism and their
families.
And, as you say, if you'reconcerned about resources, it
certainly helps to divert peoplefrom the jails and prisons.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
Yeah, exactly what do you see happening now?
You've been on the bench.
You still are on the bench,even though it's an emergency
judge.
You see all these things thatare happening in the country
with autism and mental health.
What do you think actuallyneeds to happen for everything
(16:38):
to take a turn and start tochange?
Speaker 2 (16:41):
Well, the situation in our country right now to me
is pretty scary, because itseems to me that compassion
people are not doing anythingbased on compassion or
attempting to help other people,and I don't know what you do,
other than try to elect somebodythat does have those qualities,
because right now, it seemsthat a lot of the folks that
we're putting into governmentare just concerned about
(17:03):
promoting themselves or somemonetary, you know, issue yeah,
I agree, compassion is somethingthat's needed yeah, I'm not
seeing much of it how do you seemaking the legal system a
little more tolerant?
Speaker 1 (17:17):
You've been tolerant.
You know judges that have beentolerant.
How do we expand that?
Speaker 2 (17:23):
Judges are elected here.
They're elected.
You know, partisan elections.
We used to have nonpartisan butpartisan elections.
What you've got to do is makeit part of their platform, and
part of the way you get electedis to show people that you have
the ability to understand what'sdifferent between right and
wrong.
You know what's going to makeyour society safer, what's going
(17:44):
to save your society resources.
You know what's going to keeppeople from coming back to the
courthouse and courtroom overand over, because I can tell you
I have sentenced people.
I've done it for so long.
I've sentenced people and thensentenced their grandparents and
their grandchildren.
It's sad that you see this.
I guess a lot of it depends onwhere you are, geographically
(18:05):
also, because if you grew up ina metropolitan area like, for
example, I grew up in theTriangle, which is
Raleigh-Durham-Capitol Hill, andyou know there are a lot of
different folks there, you knowit's a lot of university people,
educated people, people of alldifferent walks of society and I
grew up with that kind ofenvironment.
(18:26):
But somebody that grows up, say, in rural North Carolina or
maybe rural Tennessee, itdoesn't see anybody except the
people that are like them.
You know they only see thepeople that look like him, talk
like they do, you know, and andthey don't expand their beliefs
and they don't expand theirhorizons to understand why other
(18:47):
people do things the way theydo.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
Yeah, yeah, I definitely agree with that.
It's uh, the world has becomesmaller, you know so.
So it's one of those thingswhere, where we have to take and
and learn from other people.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
Yeah, we do, we do and I'm not lost hope because,
as I say, even when we did thisthing back in 2005 with the
legislature, I had districtattorneys and law enforcement,
all these folks that werewanting to help and wanting to
be a part of our educationalefforts, so it wasn't as bad as
(19:19):
you might think.
It seems to me, once you getpeople on an individual basis to
care versus a large group ofpeople, that I don't care.
I'm wrong, you know.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
Yeah, I agree that comes a lot from understanding.
I think more that we put outthere so that people can
understand, I think more that weput out there so that people
can understand, hopefully themore people will change their
attitude and be willing to help.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
That's true.
That's true.
And judges and VAs, you know wefocus so much on consequences,
but let's focus some onpreventative measures.
You know, what can we do todivert this from the court
system?
Speaker 1 (19:58):
What would you like to tell people that they need to
hear, about autism, about thelegal system, some of the things
that you think are realimportant, that you've done, or
others?
Speaker 2 (20:11):
have done that people should hear.
I think probably the mostimportant thing is to open your
mind to differences among peopleand if you're going to be
working with the public, andespecially in the court system,
where you're makinglife-changing decisions for
people and for families, youneed to understand what these
terms mean.
If you hear the word, you knowautism, you need to know that
(20:32):
it's a developmental disability.
People don't get cured of it.
They can do better and functionbetter, but they're not going
to be cured.
And if they actually have thediagnosis, there are certain
things similar among folks onthe spectrum and in your mind
too possibilities.
I think that this was true backfive or six years ago, maybe
still true.
(20:52):
We had the University of NorthCarolina have a program to
diagnose and try to trainclassroom teachers, for example,
about how to deal with my ownspectrum, and so the military
started sending people withfamilies with someone on
spectrum to North Carolina andwe just had a large influx of
people coming here.
You know that needed theseresources.
(21:12):
I've been told, and I'm notsure it's true, but I've been
told that other states now areadvanced over North Carolina.
I don't know how do you makepeople have incentive to care.
I don't know how you do that.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
Unfortunately we are a country.
It's not a problem until it's aproblem for our family.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
Unfortunately, that's the way a lot of people think.
We just have to find a way toget them out of that mindset.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
I'll give you an example of that, because I've
seen it personally.
Somebody you know.
You talk to people out drivingwhile impaired.
Oh, put them in jail, shootthem, blah, blah, blah.
And then it's their son ortheir uncle or somebody in their
family.
Oh, but he's a nice guy andyou're exactly right, Nobody
cares until it affects theirfamily and their lives.
(21:58):
And autism can happen inanybody's family.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
Absolutely.
Autism can happen to anyone'sfamily.
It can be rich, it can be poor.
It doesn't choose.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
That's fine.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
Before we close this out, I'm curious on how you
actually got involved in thelegal system.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
Well, I went to undergrad at Duke and I wanted
to go to medical school.
My mom was a registered nurseand my dad was a scientist.
Didn't really like thechemistry and when I got out of
school I went and worked forSocial Security Disability.
That was the worst job ever.
I did that for a year in acubicle where you have to tell
(22:38):
people they can't get disabilityand I try to convince you to
turn them down.
So then I decided I'm going togo to law school.
I loved law school.
A lot of people didn't like it,but I loved it.
I was there with the peoplethat understood me and how I
thought I really loved it.
And still my associate was mostattorneys.
They're not bad people.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
When you graduated law school, did you go directly
into the court system or did youstart a private practice?
Speaker 2 (23:04):
When I got out of law school I married a guy from up
here in Alexander County and westarted law practice together
and I did just about everything.
In a solo law practice or smallpractice like that you can't
really specialize.
So I was doing criminal defense, family law too.
I would do title searches andthieves and such, learned a lot.
(23:26):
Uh, that was when I was 25.
And then when I was 30 I ranfor district court judge
position.
That was open up here and nowoman had ever run for it before
up here.
The guy that was runningagainst me, um, he came to me he
said well, is this really notyour turn?
You're only 30 years old, youknow.
You know it's really.
(23:46):
You know you need to wait.
And I said, no, I'm gonna do it.
And I won by 75 votes with fourcounties, and the night of the
election the newspaper publishedthat my opponent had won.
I went to bed thinking that hewon and then the next morning,
one precinct in Arnold County,the sheath had broken and they
(24:07):
came through with me and I won.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
Yeah, Wow, that's a great story.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Yeah, it was.
It's all the first female jackup here in either district or
peer court.
There are a lot of them now andI'm glad about it because I
think sometimes, you know, ithelps that women have had to
experience discrimination andsuch.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
Yeah, absolutely.
Plus, you have an autistic sonthat gives you actual insight on
what people go through on adaily basis actual insight on
what people go through on adaily basis.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
Yeah, and I don't know how you really educate
people about what's going to behappening.
I probably didn't say that verywell, but if you live in a
large city, you might have aplace where your adult son can
go to some sort of a work joband some sort of you sort of
place where they're safe butthey're with other people.
There's nothing much up here inrural Western North Carolina
(25:07):
and it seems like there's lessnow.
There never was.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
This has been great Great conversation, great
information.
I really appreciate you takingthe time to come on.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
Yeah, I enjoyed it.
Thank you for asking me in.
Thank you for doing what you'redoing.
I think it's going to bewonderful and maybe you can
write a book or a few booksabout it.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
Well, you never know about that.
Thanks again.
Thanks for taking the time outof your busy schedule to listen
to our show today.
We hope that you enjoyed it asmuch as we enjoyed bringing it
to you.
If you know anyone that wouldlike to tell us their story,
(25:50):
send them to TonyMantorcomContact then they can give us
their information so one daythey may be a guest on our show.
One more thing we ask telleveryone everywhere about why
not me, the world, theconversations we're having and
(26:11):
the inspiration our guests giveto everyone everywhere that you
are not alone in this world.
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