April 18, 2025 • 28 mins
Leigh Anne McKingsley shares her journey as Senior Director of Disability and Justice Initiatives for the ARC, where she oversees the National Center on Criminal Justice and Disability to address the invisibility and injustices faced by people with intellectual and developmental disabilities in the justice system.
• The ARC began as a parent advocacy group fighting against institutionalization of children with disabilities and has evolved over 70+ years to promote inclusion through policy work and direct support
• McKingsley's "Pathways to Justice" training brings together law enforcement, attorneys, and service providers to create community-based solutions through Disability Response Teams
• Studies show 2 in 10 prisoners and 3 in 10 jail inmates report cognitive disabilities, yet proper accommodations and understanding remain limited
• People with intellectual and developmental disabilities are 30-40% more likely to also have mental health conditions, creating complex support needs
• Misinterpretation of behaviors like stimming can lead to unnecessary criminalization when officers don't recognize disability-related behaviors
• Personal stories from those with lived experience are crucial for creating change, though "double stigma" of disability and justice involvement creates barriers
• Success often comes from asking simple questions like "What accommodation do you need?" rather than focusing on specific diagnoses
To learn more or get involved with the ARC's National Center on Criminal Justice and Disability, visit their website or contact them directly to help create pathways to justice in your community.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to why Not Me ?
The World Podcast, hosted byTony Mantor, broadcasting from
Music City, usa, nashville,tennessee.
Join us as our guests tell ustheir stories.
Some will make you laugh, somewill make you cry.
Their stories Some will makeyou laugh, some will make you
(00:30):
cry.
Real life people who willinspire and show that you are
not alone in this world.
Hopefully, you gain moreawareness, acceptance and a
better understanding for autismAround the World.
Hi, I'm Tony Mantor.
(00:52):
Welcome to why Not Me?
The World Humanity OverHandcuffs special event.
We are delighted to have LeanneMcKingsley join us today.
She serves as Senior Directorof Disability and Justice
Initiatives for the ARC andoversees the ARC's National
Center on Criminal Justice andDisability, a clearinghouse for
research, information,evaluation, training and
(01:14):
technical assistance forcriminal justice and disability
professionals.
She possesses a tremendousamount of knowledge and we are
grateful to have her join ustoday.
Thanks for coming on.
Thank you so much, tony.
Oh, it's my pleasure.
So if you would expand on howyou got into what you do.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
My background was more mental health as well, as
you were talking, and I gotinterested as I was working
through my master's of socialwork and then I got a dual
master's in publicadministration of social work
and then I got a dual master'sin public administration.
We had our own jailovercrowding issue here in Texas
that I was interested inaddressing.
(01:50):
That also intersected withmental health issues, and I was
working with Senator Moncrief'soffice here in Fort Worth, texas
, and all of these thingsconverged into what can we do to
keep people out of the criminaljustice system that have mental
health disabilities?
But then, lo and behold, therewas an ad in the paper from the
(02:12):
ARC of the United States that Ihad never even heard of before
and they were looking forsomeone to oversee a project
because of the Title II theAmericans with Disabilities Act
where we could educate lawenforcement attorneys, people
with disabilities about theiraccommodations under the Title
II the Americans withDisabilities Act where we could
educate law enforcementattorneys, people with
disabilities about theiraccommodations under the Title
II.
So that's when I got hired atthe ART and that is when I first
(02:34):
started seeing all of theinjustices that people with IDD,
including autism when I say IDD, I'm talking about a much
broader field, looking at autism, but also people with fetal
alcohol spectrum disorder,people with all kinds of
developmental disabilities whomay not have a specific term
attached to it they still have adevelopmental disability and
(02:56):
how often they remain invisiblein our criminal justice system
and how little there is in termsof research and supports when
someone gets involved in thesystem.
So it was 11 years ago that westarted the National Center on
Criminal Justice and Disability.
It was kind of a lifelong dreamto create a center that could
(03:16):
really house this kind ofinformation and provide
resources, and we also have anational information referral
line so that people withdisabilities parents, attorneys,
whoever can call to getinformation and to actually get
advocacy in these differenttypes of cases.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
So can you tell us what the ARC actually stands for
?
Speaker 2 (03:38):
So the ARC does not really stand for anything it did
back in the day.
Originally, the ARC started outbecause of parents who were
wanting to advocate for theirchildren to be able to go to
school, have an education, notlive in institutions, and they
said no to the doctors that saidyour child would be better off
in an institution and they kepttheir children with them and
(04:01):
then started fighting foreducation and that's how the ARC
started and it was theAssociation for Retarded
Citizens at that time.
But due to the stigma, obviously, of that word, now the ARC goes
by the ARC and our focus isreally to have inclusion of
people with intellectual anddevelopmental disabilities,
(04:22):
whether that's in schools oreveryday life, having access to
the same things everybody elsedoes and in a way that is safe
and promotes their health andwell-being.
So we do that through a numberof different ways.
We have policy.
We work with our chaptersthroughout the country.
We have over 600 chaptersthroughout the country and we're
(04:44):
probably one of the best keptsecrets when it comes to this
type of advocacy and supportsfor people with IDD.
But we have been doing thiswork for over 70 years, really
focused on people with IDDneeding supports, whether it's
policy at the local, state andnational level, working on
policies that affect people withIDD, but also supporting our
(05:05):
chapters, who are boots on theground, providing that advocacy
one-on-one for families and forpeople with IDD.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
You said this started 11 years ago, correct, and
where is the home base located?
Speaker 2 (05:19):
It was 11 years ago that we started the National
Center on Criminal Justice andDisability, which is housed
within the ARC, and our nationaloffices are in Washington DC,
and then I work from a homeoffice in Texas.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
How long have you been with them?
Speaker 2 (05:34):
In February it will be 29 years.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
In the 29 years since you very first started.
What are some of the changesthat you've seen, that's taken
place that you can say this isreally good.
It needs to get a little bitbetter, but what we've done is
working.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
And that's a great question.
I'll answer that carefully.
Because there have been someprogress made in terms of just
society having more of anunderstanding of developmental
disabilities, a lot of thatbecause of autism.
Now you can turn on Netflix andsee shows on autism.
I mean there's just more of ageneral awareness around
(06:13):
disability in some ways.
But we still lack in reallypeople understanding how that
affects those in criminaljustice situations, how that
affects those in criminaljustice situations, those who
may be victims of crime.
So in certain areas I thinkpeople are still invisible and
(06:35):
that's why those accommodationsare so important.
And where we have also lackedis in research, and we know we
have to have some research todrive change.
Recently I was involved in ameeting in DC that put out a
report funded by the NationalInstitutes of Justice to start
looking at a research agenda forpeople with IDD involved in the
criminal justice system.
(06:56):
So there are some ways thatthere is maybe some more funding
to look at these issues.
Be some more funding to look atthese issues.
That's because of fundingthrough the Department of
Justice's Bureau of JusticeAssistance.
That's what gave us the initialseed money to start the
National Center on CriminalJustice and Disability.
So there is some funding outthere to do that.
But there are still people withIDD who have been killed within
(07:21):
criminal justice system,whether it's through an
encounter gone wrong with lawenforcement or it's in our
prisons and jails.
And then there's victims whoare not getting their day in
court.
There's still a lot to be done,but there have been small
incremental changes that havebeen positive.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
When you start on a new chapter of your initiatives,
especially with legislation,what do you do to try to get
more legislation involved sothat everyone, from the judges
down, can get a betterunderstanding of what's needed
to give a better outcome foreveryone involved?
Speaker 2 (08:03):
That's a great question.
Let me back up and talk aboutwhen we first got the grant to
start the National Center.
One of the things we wanted todo is create training, and that
is not the end-all be-all, butthat's part of the solution.
And our training is calledPathways to Justice, which is a
(08:24):
one-day training for lawenforcement, for attorneys and
the legal professionals andvictim service providers that
brings the community togetheraround this issue.
So we're not pointing fingersand saying they're not doing
their job or they don't help,but we're saying we all have a
role to play in this, don't help, but we're saying we all have a
(08:47):
role to play in this Part ofthat training.
We help our sites set up it'scalled disability response teams
that are essentially planningteams that look at the systemic
issues going on in the communityand try to address the
underlying issues that arecreating the problems that
they're seeing as officers or aspeople with disabilities.
And so that speaks to.
If you're wanting to change ajudge's attitude or
(09:08):
understanding or the attorney'sor whoever, you've got to start
with a key group of people thatare working on this together,
because once they get at thetable and start talking about
these cases, they realize theymay have never even had a chance
to do this, and we've seen thatin our trainings.
Where they just don't have time, there's not the reason to get
together and have theseconversations, and so we're
(09:30):
trying to create thatopportunity.
A lot of times there'sexpertise in those communities
that just are untapped and theyhaven't been able to think
through some of these solutionstogether.
But what's always key aboutthese teams is that you have
someone with an IDD, someonewith lived experience, who
brings that very importantunderstanding to all of these
(09:54):
discussions.
Without that, you're missingthe boat and sometimes that's
not provided, or maybe notprovided in a way where
accommodations are there to helppeople meaningfully get
involved.
So you want to make sure thatwe have people with disabilities
involved at the very beginningof all of these discussions.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
I've been told with legislators, you need to sit
down with them.
Throw away the emotions.
Give them facts and figures onhow they can save taxpayer money
by doing something or changingsome of the things that are
being done.
Now I think on the judges ithas to be a little bit more
emotional.
(10:32):
Still have the facts.
Get them to look at the personthat's in front of them.
Hopefully, have a littleempathy towards them.
Use the knowledge of what youdid with the legislators and the
emotions to get across of themthat they might be able to help
that person have a better lifeby doing something a little bit
(10:55):
different than they would havedone.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
I really think it's a two-pronged approach.
I think your best bet is tohave both.
You need the story because,honestly, what makes what does
motivate us Now it?
Numbers are important andunderstanding that the bottom
line on how you're Notsupporting people is going to
(11:20):
increase people going into thesystem, which ups the cost of
your community or your state.
But you also really need tounderstand the stories and the
why behind why it's so importantthat we address it and I think
when you bring someone's storyit creates that sense of urgency
to understand.
This could have been your son,your daughter.
(11:42):
Frankly, we look for judges orattorneys who have that personal
connection.
If you can find someone with afamily connection or has lived
it themselves, all the better tohave them tell it from their
perspective of why this issue isso important.
So when we go in and we createthese disability response teams
(12:02):
with our chapters, we ask who'salready involved?
What kind of training arepolice getting?
Are your local prosecutorsgetting?
Is there someone there who hasa son or daughter with an
intellectual developmentaldisability or a family member?
And let's start with where youare at and what you have and
we'll just come in and supportthat and provide a template of
(12:25):
how you can grow that in yourcommunity.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
I've heard that one in seven people around the world
either know someone or hassomeone that's autistic in their
family.
I've heard one in eight peoplearound the world has a mental
disability of some sort.
Those numbers are prettystaggering.
With those kind of numbers, thepossibility of you coming in
(12:49):
contact with someone that hasone or both of those scenarios.
Now, those people can be lawenforcement, DAs, ADAs, judges
it can cover the whole judicialsystem and beyond.
Because of that, what seems tobe the issue to why we can't get
(13:10):
them more involved, even thoughit is getting better in some
areas?
Speaker 2 (13:16):
I think still there's a lot of disability that
remains invisible in our societyand especially mental health
stigma the stigma of being ableto talk about your mental health
.
We know that's been true inpolicing for forever until more
recently.
Now there's a lot more talkabout mental wellness and
policing, but there still is astigma of being able to openly
(13:39):
talk about this.
Imagine being in the criminaljustice system and stigmas that
you may face.
Imagine having autism oranother type of a developmental
disability and knowing that ifyou say something in jail or in
prison, what that could do orwhat that could mean.
So I think there's still a lotof this not being talked about
(13:59):
or fear of talking openly aboutdisability, which can impact the
ability to know the truenumbers.
But we still don't have a lotof good screening tools either
to get to exactly how manypeople are affected by different
types of disabilities.
We do know from the Bureau ofJustice Statistics.
There's data specific to thenumber of people in prisons and
(14:23):
jails Two in 10 prisoners andthree in 10 jail inmates
reported having some type of acognitive disability.
That's a pretty broad term thatthey use there.
It includes people with Downsyndrome, autism, dementia,
learning disabilities,intellectual disability and
traumatic brain injury.
It would probably help us toknow a little bit more
(14:46):
specifically what types ofdisabilities that people have in
the criminal justice system,but that's one example of how
we're trying to get to the dataso that we can know what kind of
accommodations are needed.
And the more we understandabout the type of disability,
the better we can pinpoint theaccommodations and supports.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
Yeah, that makes sense.
When you meet with a person forthe first time it can be a
judge, a DA, anyone within thelegal system you tell them what
you're trying to do.
What's your approach?
You don't know where they stand.
You might know a little bit onwhere you think they stand.
Sometimes your perception isnot always correct.
(15:29):
What's your approach?
In talking with them,discussions, trying to show them
that they, hopefully, will lookat it in a different view than
what they might have.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
I think we often start with thinking through why
they signed up for this job.
And this is when you understanddisability better, you do your
job better.
If you're really out toprosecute a case, then you need
to understand within that casethat this person has a
(16:03):
disability.
You've got to understand thefacets of that.
Who do you reach out tounderstand it?
Who's there to support thathelp?
Whether it's someoneprosecuting a case, someone
defending a case, a lawenforcement officer wanting to
do their job well, the more youunderstand how to approach
someone, the safer everyone canbe.
So we try to really posit it asyou want to do the job the best
(16:29):
way you can, we want to helpyou do your job.
So we just want to share aboutwhy it's important to understand
about disability, so thateveryone can walk away, so that
everyone deserves justice.
So why are people withdisabilities any different?
But the truth is they aren'tgetting it and this is why we
(16:50):
start there and give very basicexamples of how injustices are
happening and a lot of timespeople just don't know.
They don't know.
It remains invisible.
I don't even want to thinkabout the number of victims with
IDD all over our country, allover our world where it doesn't
even come to the light of day.
(17:10):
Where do you think that traumagoes?
There's so much trauma outthere that's just simply
unaddressed.
Speaker 1 (17:18):
Yeah, I have spoken with several different people,
both on the mental health sideand the autistic side, that have
tremendous success stories.
How do we get those successstories to these people that
might be questioning it becauseof the stigma, and there's
(17:39):
nothing better than showingsomebody a situation to where it
had the worst case scenario,with no hope, but yet it
succeeded.
And this person went on to doreally good things, not only in
just a local area, but statewidein some cases, and some cases
even beyond that.
How do we get through to themthat hey, don't look at just the
(18:03):
negative, look at all thepossibilities.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Absolutely.
I love that you said that,because a lot of the work that
we've been doing through thecenter has focused on some of
the harder issues, like sexualviolence of people with IDD.
And it's so hard to bring thatmessage because people feel like
what can we do, especially ifsomeone doesn't use spoken
(18:27):
language to communicate?
How do they even report?
And we have a project right nowfunded through the Office of
Violence Against Women thatwe're working on that very issue
.
So we always bring that thereis hope.
The problem is when people haveto be silent and when we don't
give people the tools to evenadvocate where they have used
(18:50):
their platform and their storyto really help change the
narrative and the understandingaround these issues.
(19:17):
Absolutely, change can happen,but we've got to get more focus
on these issues so that there'smore support and more acceptance
to want to talk about it.
I think the stories are therewaiting to be had, but there's
still a lot more in terms offiguring out how to bring, I
think, more collaboration to thetable between the disability
(19:39):
world, the victim advocacy andpolicing.
That's what NCCJD, our nationalcenter, was set up to do is to
create that collaborative spaceso that we can learn how to work
together to raise this issue.
But having people withdisabilities who've lived it
leading that effort is whatwe're really seeking to do and
(20:01):
bringing their story forward.
I think people who have livedit and bring their story are the
biggest hope that we have,because we all can feel and see
and taste and experience throughtheir stories that something
can change.
But just relaying it ourselvesis not near as strong as hearing
it from them directly.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
relaying it ourselves is not near as strong as
hearing it from them directly.
How do we get more people likethat to get in front of people
to tell them their stories?
Speaker 2 (20:34):
We ourselves have experienced at the center
difficulty in finding thestories no-transcript.
But I think there's a doublestigma, with disability as well
as, say, being a victim of acrime or being a suspect of a
(20:55):
crime.
It's almost like you've gotdual stigmas going on and people
, I think, don't always feelcomfortable talking about the
reality of their lives, whatthey have faced or what they are
facing, and sometimes evenbecause they're in the system
right now, they can't talk aboutit.
So the nature of what we'retrying to raise awareness about
(21:19):
makes it that much moredifficult to bring these stories
out, and often it's people thathave already had a certain
number of years of healing orfamilies that now can talk about
it.
I think that's one of thereasons why it makes it
challenging.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
Yes, I can understand that for sure.
There is a certain perceptionof it and people don't get it.
When I first started my podcast, I was one of them.
The more people that I spokewith, the more people I had on
my podcast, the more I startedunderstanding what their lives
are like every day.
One of the big things that Idid find is that everything I
(21:57):
thought was completely wrong.
The same thing can be saidabout mental health, because
there's a lot of things therethat people just do not
understand either.
So the people that lived itevery day are the ones that
taught me what I know today.
Sad part is, bad things happen.
We don't understand it, andthose that do not understand it
(22:19):
make judgments of toss them injail, throw away the key, when
that's not the answer at all.
What they should know is helpthem into a facility that can
work with them every single dayto give them a chance of having
a better life.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Absolutely.
That's called criminalizingpeople with disabilities,
whether it's a mental healthdisability or it's an
intellectual developmentaldisability like autism.
That has been a huge issue inour country because there is
simply nowhere else for peopleto go and the default has been
(22:58):
our criminal justice system, andbecause people may show
different behaviors that can beseen from law enforcement as
you're not listening or notrespecting it can be behaviors
that are concerning to peoplewho don't understand disability,
and I often like to explain itthis way, because we often talk
(23:22):
about it as crisis in ourcountry looking at when
someone's in crisis and what dowe do, and crisis intervention,
and so I often explain it whenwe do trainings, that the crisis
is in the eye of the beholder,because what looks like a crisis
to a law enforcement officermay be an everyday thing for
someone with autism and, forexample, someone who's STEMing
(23:47):
that could come off as, and, forexample, someone who's STEMing
that could come off as oh,that's concerning behavior, but
that's actually how they're ableto calm themselves down.
So it's these misunderstandings,miscommunications, going on
that it's really on us as asociety to understand better so
that we can be more inclusive,better so that we can be more
(24:13):
inclusive.
But that means we have to beeducating and being willing to
hear each other out when itcomes to building more inclusive
systems, including within ourcriminal justice system, to
really understand disabilities,be able to provide those
accommodations and long-termsupports so that people have
other options than just calling911, for example.
(24:34):
That was the whole purpose of988.
And I don't know if I mentionedthat, when it comes to mental
health, people with intellectualdevelopmental disabilities are
more likely to have a mentalhealth disability somewhere
between 30 to 40 percent morelikely.
So there's this organizationcalled the National Association
(24:55):
of Dual Diagnosis, or NAD, wherethat is their whole focus is
that specific population, andI've been working with them off
and on for many years aroundcriminal justice issues too.
So that is important to keep inmind, that there's that
intersection of disability.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
Absolutely the one thing that I've learned doing
this podcast from so manydifferent people.
They found out later in lifethey was autistic, but before
that they were either ADHD,bipolar or whatever it might be.
And then many times they wereautistic and found out later on
they had one or two differentdiagnoses that would overlap
(25:34):
each other.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
Absolutely, and also an officer or an attorney,
whoever's working with theindividual.
They don't have to know exactlythe disability, they can just
ask what do you need help with?
What accommodation do you need?
We often say it's not about youtrying to figure out the
disability, as much as it ishaving that willingness to
(25:58):
accommodate and just knowingthat there are people with
different disabilities.
And that's what could be goingon here.
Did I think about that?
Did we stop and slow thesituation down and think this
through or think about does thatvictim need an extra support?
What is it they need?
So a lot of this can beaddressed with what we do know
(26:18):
today.
So that's just an importantmessage.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
Yeah, absolutely.
In closing, what would you liketo leave us with that you think
is very important for them tohear and understand?
Speaker 2 (26:28):
The one I just ended on, which is to keep an open
mind around people with autismand other developmental
disabilities who are at risk ofgetting involved in the criminal
justice system or already inthe system.
To think much more deeply andbroadly about why they are there
, what's going on and how youcan create change for that
(26:52):
person.
We know that change can happenboth on an individual level,
just by helping to identifysupports for someone, but also
at the systemic level so we cando better in our systems to
collaborate together to providethose kinds of supports and
people really can make a hugedifference in one person's life.
(27:12):
I've seen it many times throughthe National Center and you may
think you're not doing much ofanything, but just making that
one phone call or doing that oneoutreach to another agency
could really mean a hugedifference in the life of
someone.
So please do all you can, couldreally mean a huge difference
in the life of someone.
So please do all you can andfeel free to contact the ARC and
(27:34):
our National Center to be partof that solution.
We are always looking for helpand others to come alongside and
help us do the work.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
Yeah, great.
Well, I really appreciate youcoming on, it's been great.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
Thank you so much, Tony.
Appreciate the opportunity.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
Absolutely, the pleasure's been all mine.
Appreciate the opportunity.
Absolutely, the pleasure's beenall mine.
Thanks for taking the time outof your busy schedule to listen
to our show today.
We hope that you enjoyed it asmuch as we enjoyed bringing it
to you.
If you know anyone that wouldlike to tell us their story,
(28:08):
send them to TonyMantorcomContact then they can give us
their information so one daythey may be a guest on our show.
One more thing we ask telleveryone everywhere about why
Not Me, the world, theconversations we're having and
(28:29):
the inspiration our guests giveto everyone everywhere that you
are not alone in this world.
Welcome to why Not Me ?
The World Podcast, hosted byTony Mantor, broadcasting from
Music City, usa, nashville,tennessee.
Join us as our guests tell ustheir stories.
Some will make you laugh, somewill make you cry.
Their stories Some will makeyou laugh, some will make you
(00:30):
cry.
Real life people who willinspire and show that you are
not alone in this world.
Hopefully, you gain moreawareness, acceptance and a
better understanding for autismAround the World.
Hi, I'm Tony Mantor.
(00:52):
Welcome to why Not Me?
The World Humanity OverHandcuffs special event.
We are delighted to have LeanneMcKingsley join us today.
She serves as Senior Directorof Disability and Justice
Initiatives for the ARC andoversees the ARC's National
Center on Criminal Justice andDisability, a clearinghouse for
research, information,evaluation, training and
(01:14):
technical assistance forcriminal justice and disability
professionals.
She possesses a tremendousamount of knowledge and we are
grateful to have her join ustoday.
Thanks for coming on.
Thank you so much, tony.
Oh, it's my pleasure.
So if you would expand on howyou got into what you do.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
My background was more mental health as well, as
you were talking, and I gotinterested as I was working
through my master's of socialwork and then I got a dual
master's in publicadministration of social work
and then I got a dual master'sin public administration.
We had our own jailovercrowding issue here in Texas
that I was interested inaddressing.
(01:50):
That also intersected withmental health issues, and I was
working with Senator Moncrief'soffice here in Fort Worth, texas
, and all of these thingsconverged into what can we do to
keep people out of the criminaljustice system that have mental
health disabilities?
But then, lo and behold, therewas an ad in the paper from the
(02:12):
ARC of the United States that Ihad never even heard of before
and they were looking forsomeone to oversee a project
because of the Title II theAmericans with Disabilities Act
where we could educate lawenforcement attorneys, people
with disabilities about theiraccommodations under the Title
II the Americans withDisabilities Act where we could
educate law enforcementattorneys, people with
disabilities about theiraccommodations under the Title
II.
So that's when I got hired atthe ART and that is when I first
(02:34):
started seeing all of theinjustices that people with IDD,
including autism when I say IDD, I'm talking about a much
broader field, looking at autism, but also people with fetal
alcohol spectrum disorder,people with all kinds of
developmental disabilities whomay not have a specific term
attached to it they still have adevelopmental disability and
(02:56):
how often they remain invisiblein our criminal justice system
and how little there is in termsof research and supports when
someone gets involved in thesystem.
So it was 11 years ago that westarted the National Center on
Criminal Justice and Disability.
It was kind of a lifelong dreamto create a center that could
(03:16):
really house this kind ofinformation and provide
resources, and we also have anational information referral
line so that people withdisabilities parents, attorneys,
whoever can call to getinformation and to actually get
advocacy in these differenttypes of cases.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
So can you tell us what the ARC actually stands for
?
Speaker 2 (03:38):
So the ARC does not really stand for anything it did
back in the day.
Originally, the ARC started outbecause of parents who were
wanting to advocate for theirchildren to be able to go to
school, have an education, notlive in institutions, and they
said no to the doctors that saidyour child would be better off
in an institution and they kepttheir children with them and
(04:01):
then started fighting foreducation and that's how the ARC
started and it was theAssociation for Retarded
Citizens at that time.
But due to the stigma, obviously, of that word, now the ARC goes
by the ARC and our focus isreally to have inclusion of
people with intellectual anddevelopmental disabilities,
(04:22):
whether that's in schools oreveryday life, having access to
the same things everybody elsedoes and in a way that is safe
and promotes their health andwell-being.
So we do that through a numberof different ways.
We have policy.
We work with our chaptersthroughout the country.
We have over 600 chaptersthroughout the country and we're
(04:44):
probably one of the best keptsecrets when it comes to this
type of advocacy and supportsfor people with IDD.
But we have been doing thiswork for over 70 years, really
focused on people with IDDneeding supports, whether it's
policy at the local, state andnational level, working on
policies that affect people withIDD, but also supporting our
(05:05):
chapters, who are boots on theground, providing that advocacy
one-on-one for families and forpeople with IDD.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
You said this started 11 years ago, correct, and
where is the home base located?
Speaker 2 (05:19):
It was 11 years ago that we started the National
Center on Criminal Justice andDisability, which is housed
within the ARC, and our nationaloffices are in Washington DC,
and then I work from a homeoffice in Texas.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
How long have you been with them?
Speaker 2 (05:34):
In February it will be 29 years.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
In the 29 years since you very first started.
What are some of the changesthat you've seen, that's taken
place that you can say this isreally good.
It needs to get a little bitbetter, but what we've done is
working.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
And that's a great question.
I'll answer that carefully.
Because there have been someprogress made in terms of just
society having more of anunderstanding of developmental
disabilities, a lot of thatbecause of autism.
Now you can turn on Netflix andsee shows on autism.
I mean there's just more of ageneral awareness around
(06:13):
disability in some ways.
But we still lack in reallypeople understanding how that
affects those in criminaljustice situations, how that
affects those in criminaljustice situations, those who
may be victims of crime.
So in certain areas I thinkpeople are still invisible and
(06:35):
that's why those accommodationsare so important.
And where we have also lackedis in research, and we know we
have to have some research todrive change.
Recently I was involved in ameeting in DC that put out a
report funded by the NationalInstitutes of Justice to start
looking at a research agenda forpeople with IDD involved in the
criminal justice system.
(06:56):
So there are some ways thatthere is maybe some more funding
to look at these issues.
Be some more funding to look atthese issues.
That's because of fundingthrough the Department of
Justice's Bureau of JusticeAssistance.
That's what gave us the initialseed money to start the
National Center on CriminalJustice and Disability.
So there is some funding outthere to do that.
But there are still people withIDD who have been killed within
(07:21):
criminal justice system,whether it's through an
encounter gone wrong with lawenforcement or it's in our
prisons and jails.
And then there's victims whoare not getting their day in
court.
There's still a lot to be done,but there have been small
incremental changes that havebeen positive.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
When you start on a new chapter of your initiatives,
especially with legislation,what do you do to try to get
more legislation involved sothat everyone, from the judges
down, can get a betterunderstanding of what's needed
to give a better outcome foreveryone involved?
Speaker 2 (08:03):
That's a great question.
Let me back up and talk aboutwhen we first got the grant to
start the National Center.
One of the things we wanted todo is create training, and that
is not the end-all be-all, butthat's part of the solution.
And our training is calledPathways to Justice, which is a
(08:24):
one-day training for lawenforcement, for attorneys and
the legal professionals andvictim service providers that
brings the community togetheraround this issue.
So we're not pointing fingersand saying they're not doing
their job or they don't help,but we're saying we all have a
role to play in this, don't help, but we're saying we all have a
(08:47):
role to play in this Part ofthat training.
We help our sites set up it'scalled disability response teams
that are essentially planningteams that look at the systemic
issues going on in the communityand try to address the
underlying issues that arecreating the problems that
they're seeing as officers or aspeople with disabilities.
And so that speaks to.
If you're wanting to change ajudge's attitude or
(09:08):
understanding or the attorney'sor whoever, you've got to start
with a key group of people thatare working on this together,
because once they get at thetable and start talking about
these cases, they realize theymay have never even had a chance
to do this, and we've seen thatin our trainings.
Where they just don't have time, there's not the reason to get
together and have theseconversations, and so we're
(09:30):
trying to create thatopportunity.
A lot of times there'sexpertise in those communities
that just are untapped and theyhaven't been able to think
through some of these solutionstogether.
But what's always key aboutthese teams is that you have
someone with an IDD, someonewith lived experience, who
brings that very importantunderstanding to all of these
(09:54):
discussions.
Without that, you're missingthe boat and sometimes that's
not provided, or maybe notprovided in a way where
accommodations are there to helppeople meaningfully get
involved.
So you want to make sure thatwe have people with disabilities
involved at the very beginningof all of these discussions.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
I've been told with legislators, you need to sit
down with them.
Throw away the emotions.
Give them facts and figures onhow they can save taxpayer money
by doing something or changingsome of the things that are
being done.
Now I think on the judges ithas to be a little bit more
emotional.
(10:32):
Still have the facts.
Get them to look at the personthat's in front of them.
Hopefully, have a littleempathy towards them.
Use the knowledge of what youdid with the legislators and the
emotions to get across of themthat they might be able to help
that person have a better lifeby doing something a little bit
(10:55):
different than they would havedone.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
I really think it's a two-pronged approach.
I think your best bet is tohave both.
You need the story because,honestly, what makes what does
motivate us Now it?
Numbers are important andunderstanding that the bottom
line on how you're Notsupporting people is going to
(11:20):
increase people going into thesystem, which ups the cost of
your community or your state.
But you also really need tounderstand the stories and the
why behind why it's so importantthat we address it and I think
when you bring someone's storyit creates that sense of urgency
to understand.
This could have been your son,your daughter.
(11:42):
Frankly, we look for judges orattorneys who have that personal
connection.
If you can find someone with afamily connection or has lived
it themselves, all the better tohave them tell it from their
perspective of why this issue isso important.
So when we go in and we createthese disability response teams
(12:02):
with our chapters, we ask who'salready involved?
What kind of training arepolice getting?
Are your local prosecutorsgetting?
Is there someone there who hasa son or daughter with an
intellectual developmentaldisability or a family member?
And let's start with where youare at and what you have and
we'll just come in and supportthat and provide a template of
(12:25):
how you can grow that in yourcommunity.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
I've heard that one in seven people around the world
either know someone or hassomeone that's autistic in their
family.
I've heard one in eight peoplearound the world has a mental
disability of some sort.
Those numbers are prettystaggering.
With those kind of numbers, thepossibility of you coming in
(12:49):
contact with someone that hasone or both of those scenarios.
Now, those people can be lawenforcement, DAs, ADAs, judges
it can cover the whole judicialsystem and beyond.
Because of that, what seems tobe the issue to why we can't get
(13:10):
them more involved, even thoughit is getting better in some
areas?
Speaker 2 (13:16):
I think still there's a lot of disability that
remains invisible in our societyand especially mental health
stigma the stigma of being ableto talk about your mental health
.
We know that's been true inpolicing for forever until more
recently.
Now there's a lot more talkabout mental wellness and
policing, but there still is astigma of being able to openly
(13:39):
talk about this.
Imagine being in the criminaljustice system and stigmas that
you may face.
Imagine having autism oranother type of a developmental
disability and knowing that ifyou say something in jail or in
prison, what that could do orwhat that could mean.
So I think there's still a lotof this not being talked about
(13:59):
or fear of talking openly aboutdisability, which can impact the
ability to know the truenumbers.
But we still don't have a lotof good screening tools either
to get to exactly how manypeople are affected by different
types of disabilities.
We do know from the Bureau ofJustice Statistics.
There's data specific to thenumber of people in prisons and
(14:23):
jails Two in 10 prisoners andthree in 10 jail inmates
reported having some type of acognitive disability.
That's a pretty broad term thatthey use there.
It includes people with Downsyndrome, autism, dementia,
learning disabilities,intellectual disability and
traumatic brain injury.
It would probably help us toknow a little bit more
(14:46):
specifically what types ofdisabilities that people have in
the criminal justice system,but that's one example of how
we're trying to get to the dataso that we can know what kind of
accommodations are needed.
And the more we understandabout the type of disability,
the better we can pinpoint theaccommodations and supports.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
Yeah, that makes sense.
When you meet with a person forthe first time it can be a
judge, a DA, anyone within thelegal system you tell them what
you're trying to do.
What's your approach?
You don't know where they stand.
You might know a little bit onwhere you think they stand.
Sometimes your perception isnot always correct.
(15:29):
What's your approach?
In talking with them,discussions, trying to show them
that they, hopefully, will lookat it in a different view than
what they might have.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
I think we often start with thinking through why
they signed up for this job.
And this is when you understanddisability better, you do your
job better.
If you're really out toprosecute a case, then you need
to understand within that casethat this person has a
(16:03):
disability.
You've got to understand thefacets of that.
Who do you reach out tounderstand it?
Who's there to support thathelp?
Whether it's someoneprosecuting a case, someone
defending a case, a lawenforcement officer wanting to
do their job well, the more youunderstand how to approach
someone, the safer everyone canbe.
So we try to really posit it asyou want to do the job the best
(16:29):
way you can, we want to helpyou do your job.
So we just want to share aboutwhy it's important to understand
about disability, so thateveryone can walk away, so that
everyone deserves justice.
So why are people withdisabilities any different?
But the truth is they aren'tgetting it and this is why we
(16:50):
start there and give very basicexamples of how injustices are
happening and a lot of timespeople just don't know.
They don't know.
It remains invisible.
I don't even want to thinkabout the number of victims with
IDD all over our country, allover our world where it doesn't
even come to the light of day.
(17:10):
Where do you think that traumagoes?
There's so much trauma outthere that's just simply
unaddressed.
Speaker 1 (17:18):
Yeah, I have spoken with several different people,
both on the mental health sideand the autistic side, that have
tremendous success stories.
How do we get those successstories to these people that
might be questioning it becauseof the stigma, and there's
(17:39):
nothing better than showingsomebody a situation to where it
had the worst case scenario,with no hope, but yet it
succeeded.
And this person went on to doreally good things, not only in
just a local area, but statewidein some cases, and some cases
even beyond that.
How do we get through to themthat hey, don't look at just the
(18:03):
negative, look at all thepossibilities.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Absolutely.
I love that you said that,because a lot of the work that
we've been doing through thecenter has focused on some of
the harder issues, like sexualviolence of people with IDD.
And it's so hard to bring thatmessage because people feel like
what can we do, especially ifsomeone doesn't use spoken
(18:27):
language to communicate?
How do they even report?
And we have a project right nowfunded through the Office of
Violence Against Women thatwe're working on that very issue
.
So we always bring that thereis hope.
The problem is when people haveto be silent and when we don't
give people the tools to evenadvocate where they have used
(18:50):
their platform and their storyto really help change the
narrative and the understandingaround these issues.
(19:17):
Absolutely, change can happen,but we've got to get more focus
on these issues so that there'smore support and more acceptance
to want to talk about it.
I think the stories are therewaiting to be had, but there's
still a lot more in terms offiguring out how to bring, I
think, more collaboration to thetable between the disability
(19:39):
world, the victim advocacy andpolicing.
That's what NCCJD, our nationalcenter, was set up to do is to
create that collaborative spaceso that we can learn how to work
together to raise this issue.
But having people withdisabilities who've lived it
leading that effort is whatwe're really seeking to do and
(20:01):
bringing their story forward.
I think people who have livedit and bring their story are the
biggest hope that we have,because we all can feel and see
and taste and experience throughtheir stories that something
can change.
But just relaying it ourselvesis not near as strong as hearing
it from them directly.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
relaying it ourselves is not near as strong as
hearing it from them directly.
How do we get more people likethat to get in front of people
to tell them their stories?
Speaker 2 (20:34):
We ourselves have experienced at the center
difficulty in finding thestories no-transcript.
But I think there's a doublestigma, with disability as well
as, say, being a victim of acrime or being a suspect of a
(20:55):
crime.
It's almost like you've gotdual stigmas going on and people
, I think, don't always feelcomfortable talking about the
reality of their lives, whatthey have faced or what they are
facing, and sometimes evenbecause they're in the system
right now, they can't talk aboutit.
So the nature of what we'retrying to raise awareness about
(21:19):
makes it that much moredifficult to bring these stories
out, and often it's people thathave already had a certain
number of years of healing orfamilies that now can talk about
it.
I think that's one of thereasons why it makes it
challenging.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
Yes, I can understand that for sure.
There is a certain perceptionof it and people don't get it.
When I first started my podcast, I was one of them.
The more people that I spokewith, the more people I had on
my podcast, the more I startedunderstanding what their lives
are like every day.
One of the big things that Idid find is that everything I
(21:57):
thought was completely wrong.
The same thing can be saidabout mental health, because
there's a lot of things therethat people just do not
understand either.
So the people that lived itevery day are the ones that
taught me what I know today.
Sad part is, bad things happen.
We don't understand it, andthose that do not understand it
(22:19):
make judgments of toss them injail, throw away the key, when
that's not the answer at all.
What they should know is helpthem into a facility that can
work with them every single dayto give them a chance of having
a better life.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Absolutely.
That's called criminalizingpeople with disabilities,
whether it's a mental healthdisability or it's an
intellectual developmentaldisability like autism.
That has been a huge issue inour country because there is
simply nowhere else for peopleto go and the default has been
(22:58):
our criminal justice system, andbecause people may show
different behaviors that can beseen from law enforcement as
you're not listening or notrespecting it can be behaviors
that are concerning to peoplewho don't understand disability,
and I often like to explain itthis way, because we often talk
(23:22):
about it as crisis in ourcountry looking at when
someone's in crisis and what dowe do, and crisis intervention,
and so I often explain it whenwe do trainings, that the crisis
is in the eye of the beholder,because what looks like a crisis
to a law enforcement officermay be an everyday thing for
someone with autism and, forexample, someone who's STEMing
(23:47):
that could come off as, and, forexample, someone who's STEMing
that could come off as oh,that's concerning behavior, but
that's actually how they're ableto calm themselves down.
So it's these misunderstandings,miscommunications, going on
that it's really on us as asociety to understand better so
that we can be more inclusive,better so that we can be more
(24:13):
inclusive.
But that means we have to beeducating and being willing to
hear each other out when itcomes to building more inclusive
systems, including within ourcriminal justice system, to
really understand disabilities,be able to provide those
accommodations and long-termsupports so that people have
other options than just calling911, for example.
(24:34):
That was the whole purpose of988.
And I don't know if I mentionedthat, when it comes to mental
health, people with intellectualdevelopmental disabilities are
more likely to have a mentalhealth disability somewhere
between 30 to 40 percent morelikely.
So there's this organizationcalled the National Association
(24:55):
of Dual Diagnosis, or NAD, wherethat is their whole focus is
that specific population, andI've been working with them off
and on for many years aroundcriminal justice issues too.
So that is important to keep inmind, that there's that
intersection of disability.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
Absolutely the one thing that I've learned doing
this podcast from so manydifferent people.
They found out later in lifethey was autistic, but before
that they were either ADHD,bipolar or whatever it might be.
And then many times they wereautistic and found out later on
they had one or two differentdiagnoses that would overlap
(25:34):
each other.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
Absolutely, and also an officer or an attorney,
whoever's working with theindividual.
They don't have to know exactlythe disability, they can just
ask what do you need help with?
What accommodation do you need?
We often say it's not about youtrying to figure out the
disability, as much as it ishaving that willingness to
(25:58):
accommodate and just knowingthat there are people with
different disabilities.
And that's what could be goingon here.
Did I think about that?
Did we stop and slow thesituation down and think this
through or think about does thatvictim need an extra support?
What is it they need?
So a lot of this can beaddressed with what we do know
(26:18):
today.
So that's just an importantmessage.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
Yeah, absolutely.
In closing, what would you liketo leave us with that you think
is very important for them tohear and understand?
Speaker 2 (26:28):
The one I just ended on, which is to keep an open
mind around people with autismand other developmental
disabilities who are at risk ofgetting involved in the criminal
justice system or already inthe system.
To think much more deeply andbroadly about why they are there
, what's going on and how youcan create change for that
(26:52):
person.
We know that change can happenboth on an individual level,
just by helping to identifysupports for someone, but also
at the systemic level so we cando better in our systems to
collaborate together to providethose kinds of supports and
people really can make a hugedifference in one person's life.
(27:12):
I've seen it many times throughthe National Center and you may
think you're not doing much ofanything, but just making that
one phone call or doing that oneoutreach to another agency
could really mean a hugedifference in the life of
someone.
So please do all you can, couldreally mean a huge difference
in the life of someone.
So please do all you can andfeel free to contact the ARC and
(27:34):
our National Center to be partof that solution.
We are always looking for helpand others to come alongside and
help us do the work.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
Yeah, great.
Well, I really appreciate youcoming on, it's been great.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
Thank you so much, Tony.
Appreciate the opportunity.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
Absolutely, the pleasure's been all mine.
Appreciate the opportunity.
Absolutely, the pleasure's beenall mine.
Thanks for taking the time outof your busy schedule to listen
to our show today.
We hope that you enjoyed it asmuch as we enjoyed bringing it
to you.
If you know anyone that wouldlike to tell us their story,
(28:08):
send them to TonyMantorcomContact then they can give us
their information so one daythey may be a guest on our show.
One more thing we ask telleveryone everywhere about why
Not Me, the world, theconversations we're having and
(28:29):
the inspiration our guests giveto everyone everywhere that you
are not alone in this world.
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