April 29, 2025 • 33 mins
Patrick Kennedy shares his journey from Congressman to mental health advocate, revealing how his family history and personal struggles with addiction shaped his mission to transform America's approach to mental health care.
• Passed the Mental Health Parity and Addiction Equity Act by attaching it to the 2008 bank bailout bill
• Advocates for unifying mental health, addiction, and intellectual disability communities around shared needs
• Explains how our healthcare system focuses on "sick care" rather than prevention and community support
• Identifies how isolation and siloed treatment approaches fail those with co-occurring conditions
• Describes meeting colleagues in Congress who privately struggled with mental health but couldn't publicly acknowledge it
• Working with faith communities to create support networks for families affected by mental health challenges
• Emphasizes that housing stability and employment opportunities are essential components of recovery
• Founded the Kennedy Forum to build political power for mental health advocacy
• Promotes his book "Profiles in Mental Health Courage" featuring stories of individuals and families
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to why Not Me ?
The World Podcast, hosted byTony Mantor, broadcasting from
Music City, usa, nashville,tennessee.
Join us as our guests tell ustheir stories.
Some will make you laugh, somewill make you cry.
Tell us their stories.
Some will make you laugh, somewill make you cry.
(00:26):
Real life people who willinspire and show that you are
not alone In this world.
Hopefully, you gain moreawareness, acceptance and a
better understanding For autismAround the world.
Hi, I'm Tony Mantor.
(00:53):
Welcome to why Not Me?
The World Humanity OverHandcuffs special event.
Joining us today is PatrickKennedy, a retired American
politician and mental healthadvocate.
He was a Democratic member ofthe United States House of
Representatives who served from1995 to 2011.
As the youngest son of SenatorTed Kennedy and nephew of former
(01:15):
US President John F Kennedy andformer Senator Robert Kennedy,
he joins us to share his journeyof becoming a mental health
advocate.
We are honored to have him joinus today.
Thanks for coming on.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Oh, thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
It's my pleasure.
You've written a lot of billswhile you was in the House.
What kind of strategies wentinto formulating those bills to
try and get them passed?
So the outcome is, of course,helping the people that need it.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
So the outcome is, of course, helping the people that
need it.
It was more driven out of firstthis general interest to
promote mental health andaddiction.
I instinctively knew that thiswas a marginalized population
and I definitely think that myhaving grown up in my family
(02:03):
really sensitized me to that,with my aunt starting Special
Olympics and with my dad's workto try to build health care
coverage.
And in addition to theAmericans with Disability Act,
we need something similar toadvocate for mental health and
addiction.
And of course, my ownexperience as a policymaker made
(02:24):
me realize that we had siloedthe elements of an advocacy
movement so that everybody wasdefined by their diagnoses
rather than defined by theirneeds, which frankly overlap.
Whether you have autism,parkinson's lap, whether you
(02:48):
have autism, parkinson's,alzheimer's, addiction,
schizophrenia, bipolar 99% ofour agenda all in
community-based care is reallywhat should propel.
A more cohesive, organized andsophisticated effort to promote
a new paradigm of delivery, forcare that involves the community
and social supports willfrankly do more for people with
(03:09):
these illnesses than just purelymedical interventions, although
the only way we pay for healthcare today is through medical
intervention.
I have to say a lot of growingup and watching my father in the
Senate and my own experiencereally, I think, helped me
organize my thinking, which, ofcourse, itself was influenced by
(03:33):
having read a lot about thecivil rights movement, my dad's
work on disability and healthcare rights.
That's how I figured out this isan area that I want to make a
difference in because, frankly,unlike a lot of areas of society
, this is not a well-developedarea in terms of a level of
(03:56):
sophistication that is requiredto meet the current demands that
our country has for a muchbetter, effective mental health
and addiction system.
And, of course, I ran foroffice so many times.
I understand the basic calculusof how you get elected and my
(04:16):
wife ran for Congress a coupleof years ago and it really
became super apparent to me howmuch we are missing in this
space, that she could get 100brick layers the day after
tomorrow to show up somewhere,but she couldn't get 100 of
anything on mental health to doanything for her.
On election day she had 5,000teachers all throughout the
(04:40):
district holding signs andpassing out leaflets.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Yes, it's tough to get the support sometimes on
something that is just soimportant.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
This is a bigger issue than any other issue in
the country, but we have nolistserv, we have no advocacy
movement per se.
That's what's really shaped mythinking about.
This is my own experience.
And then, of course, I havelived experience someone who's
dealt with addiction and mentalillness, both myself personally
(05:10):
and within my family and Iinstinctively knew too that
there's huge shame and stigma.
And of course, as I said,comparing that to historical
battles againstinstitutionalized discrimination
against minorities was clear tome that a lot of those implicit
(05:36):
biases that you see reflectedin the way that we only pay
women 74 cents on the dollar, orhow people of color are
disproportionately representedin our criminal justice system,
and there are some obviousexamples of how we have not made
America whole in terms of theway it treats everybody,
(05:57):
regardless of sexual orientation, race, gender, so forth.
I definitely knew that thisissue fit in that paradigm
because people were marginalized.
There's no funding entrenchedin the reimbursement system to
take care of these illnesses.
It really is quite shockingwhen you think this day and age,
(06:19):
without all the new advocacy,we wouldn't still be paying any
attention to it.
Frankly, the tragic increase insuicide and overdose, which is
getting some public attentionjust the last few years.
So I would say the politicalenvironment for these issues is
dramatically different than itwas when I was in Congress.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
When you was in Congress, you got several things
done.
How did you go aboutaccomplishing that?
You?
Speaker 2 (06:43):
got several things done.
How did you go aboutaccomplishing that?
When I was in Congress, I gotthe parity bill passed, because
my dad is best friends withChris Dodd and I grew up knowing
Chris Dodd, and when we triedto get the bill passed, chris
Dodd was chairman of the bankingcommittee and I got Chris, with
his help and leadership, toinclude the Mental Health,
(07:03):
parity and Addiction Equity Actinto the bailout of the big
banks, which, as you recall, in2008, was a must to save our
economy from going into anotherfinancial Great Depression.
It wasn't because mental healthwas a big issue politically
that we passed this parity lawthat I had the honor of
co-sponsoring with my Republicancolleague, jim Ramstead.
(07:26):
It was through the back door,if you will, of this other
legislation that we needed topass that I tacked on the parity
bill, thereby getting it topass.
Any of that sheds any light towhat it's been like to try to
advocate for these issues.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
Yeah, absolutely.
Over the last 20, 30 years, theperception of autism, mental
health it's changed.
It still has a long way to go,though there's still a certain
perception that people have thatis not true, yet that's what
they think is true, so that'swhat we're stuck with.
What can we do to change that,so that people still have the
(08:05):
opportunity to get help, so theycan get out there, work, have a
family and contribute the waythey initially thought that they
could?
Speaker 2 (08:14):
I think that we need to organize ourselves
politically to get the policychanges we need.
When you think about thegraying of America, you think
about Alzheimer's and, frankly,you think about other
communities that suffer fromgreat disabilities, you think
about all of the caregivers,predominantly women, and how
(08:39):
this impacts the whole family.
Right, what's missing in all ofthose issues is the family and
the holistic approach Because,as I said, we look at these
diagnoses in a vacuum.
We think about just the medicalside.
Frankly, parity, mental HealthParity and Addiction Equity Act
(09:02):
has become a major tool for theIDD community, particularly
autism, because families withchildren with autism need all
the wraparound services andthose wraparound services are
essential in the treatment, ifyou will, the delivery of
healthcare to that population.
(09:23):
So it's really been a paritythat has become a really great
tool for families to get whatthey need, because the parity
law highlights the disparitiesin access to care, the
disparities in reimbursement byinsurance companies.
But my point is that we allshare companies.
(09:44):
But my point is that we allshare, as I said, this need for
home and community-based careand we as a country are just
going into this new space wherewe're sick and tired of the
healthcare system as itcurrently stands, which is only
focused on sick care.
Right, we have no appreciationfor how we could deliver health
(10:07):
to more Americans at a fractionof the current cost.
We are four times higher thanthe next industrialized nation
in terms of the cost of healthcare, and yet our people are
going without health care andit's too financially prohibitive
and it's the leading cause ofbankruptcy.
So you have to say to yourselfwhen are we going to fix this?
(10:30):
It's currently money that'sbeing eaten up in really end of
the life care, end of illnesscare, when it just consumes so
many resources, when, if wecould move things upstream, we
could really mitigate downstreamcosts.
And this is not just some hopeor wish.
This has been demonstrated byscience.
(10:51):
But our medical system makesprofits based upon quarterly and
yearly budgets.
In other words, we don't havebudgets that reflect the return
on investment for a longerperiod of time, which, if we did
, we would pay for things thatwe don't pay for today.
That would have cumulativelymuch bigger return on investment
(11:15):
.
The bottom line is we just needto have a more sophisticated
approach and I think that when Ikept running for office, I
would have certainconstituencies that would
support me what they asked for.
I prioritized because they wereinfluential in my political
career.
What I find now with theseissues is we don't have the
(11:39):
political power that we need toget policymakers to pay close
enough attention to what we needas they try to make sense of
all the demands on their timeand energy, and so, at the end
of the day, I really see this asa political power issue.
(11:59):
I think the Kennedy Forum,which I started on the 50th
anniversary of President Kennedysigning the Community Mental
Health Act of 1963.
I talked all about thecommunity, how we have to build
an agenda around a policyroadmap.
But now we have what we need toknow about what works and what
(12:21):
doesn't.
Sure, we need to continue toinvest in that.
But now it's implementation,now it's the time of action.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
How do we get this turned around so that we can get
the action and the focus onwhat is needed?
Speaker 2 (12:34):
You can't get the action unless the elected
officials really see the powerof this advocacy world world Now
, I have to say, for autism.
They have done a fantastic jobat really bringing political
power to bear on behalf of theautism community.
(12:55):
It really is impressive.
That said, they have a lot withthe mental health community,
but even the autism communitydoesn't always see that, just
like the mental health communitydoesn't see how the autism
community is part of our agenda.
If you look at the KennedyCenter at Vanderbilt University
in Nashville, they have theCenter for Research Around the
(13:19):
Comorbidities of Anxiety andDepression, depression with
autism.
And, not surprisingly, peoplewith autism feel socially
alienated, they are marginalized, they are bullied and hence
they have a lot of anxiety.
(13:39):
But when you think they must betaken care of by the IDD system
, the IDD system doesn't thinkof itself as a mental health
system in addition to an IDD.
So you can have group homes,you can have supports, but those
supports do not have theinsight about the mental health
(14:00):
needs of people withintellectual disabilities,
because they're no differentthan anyone else.
In fact, my Aunt, rosemary, whowas born with an intellectual
disability, had also apsychiatric condition of bipolar
, which was the reason mygrandparent chosen to give her a
lobotomy, which of course was adisaster and which relegated
(14:22):
her to really the secrecy of aconvent out in Wisconsin, which
was not acknowledged by myfamily until President Kennedy,
in his second year in office,said to my Aunt, eunice, that it
was time that the family comeout and acknowledge Rosemary's
situation.
Ironically, that tragedy in myfamily sparked a movement,
(14:45):
because it was Eunice who thentook that feeling of being
isolated and marginalized andturned it into something called
the Special Olympics, wheresport was.
The point I'm making is,rosemary had both an
intellectual disability and apsychiatric condition and we
(15:13):
still, even to this day, onlyfocus on one or the other.
We don't focus about bringingholistic care to people.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
Yes, I 100% agree.
We definitely need to find aunity so that everyone can be
helped.
Unfortunately, in our country,we live in a society if it
doesn't affect us, it's not aproblem, but then when it does
affect us, it's a huge problem.
Congress is exactly the sameway.
They live their lives just likeeveryone else.
How do we get the point acrossto them that this is an issue
(15:44):
that has to be addressed so thateveryone in our country can
live a fulfilled life?
Speaker 2 (15:51):
We have to meet each constituent group on what their
audiences and how our issue willpenetrate with that group.
It's not a monolithic messagethat will work with all groups
the same.
I will say that when I was inCongress and I'd gotten a DWI
and was in treatment and then Icame back, I got a lot of my
(16:14):
colleagues who, frankly, I'dnever really talked to before
reach out to me.
They had sent me notes, getwell notes and so forth.
When I was in rehab and I wentto their offices they always
just wanted to meet with just meand by the time that whole
experience ended I knew dozensof my colleagues who themselves
(16:35):
were struggling with addictionor depression, anxiety, or who
obviously had family members whostruggled.
I can guarantee you none ofthem knew each other, because no
one leads with this right.
Everybody knows if someonestruggled and fought the good
(16:55):
fight with cancer.
Largely for people in recoveryfrom addiction like myself,
there's a quote anonymity, theanonymous nature of these
illnesses, and that reallylimits our ability to connect to
others in society and also tobuild a political movement.
So I am a big believer in thespiritual nature of anonymity.
(17:20):
I think all I say is I'm amember of a 12-step recovery
group and I'm a person inlong-term recovery.
I have not, in that phrase,Tony, said anything about what
12-step group I'm in.
And so, for those of my friendsand fellow trudgers who are
listening to this, it's possibleto be political and public
(17:41):
about our recoveries withoutviolating the 11th tradition of
our 12-step recovery movement.
There's at least 28 millionAmericans in long-term recovery.
No one knows who these peopleare because they're all in
church basements and they keepsilent about it because they
think that's the way you shoulddo.
So if you want to build apolitical movement, it's pretty
hard to do if people aren'twilling to raise their hands,
(18:03):
and I think the shame onintellectual disabilities have
been dramatically changed, and Ithink really in large part to
major contributions from peoplelike my aunt.
I don't think people reallyknow how many other people
around them really struggle.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
Now you wrote a book.
In that book didn't you addresssome of these issues with the
families and how things could beadapted to help them?
Speaker 2 (18:30):
With my book Profiles .
In Mental Health Courage Ifeature 12 people and their
families.
So, tony, to your point, thefamily is left out of this
conversation.
If we looked at the one in four, one in three whatever the
number is that they cooked up inthe last year or two on how
many people this affects, youlose sight of the fact that it's
(18:53):
one in one, because everysingle family in America has
someone who's been suffering.
It's just impossible not to.
We all have brains, like everyother organ in the body.
It gets sick, just likeanything else.
It has challenges and we needto treat these illnesses as
opposed to shame people who aresuffering from them.
But in each of these stories Iinclude the family members
(19:18):
because, for those of us who arefortunate to make it out of the
depth of despair, we're theonly ones who tell our story, in
a sense, because if it's astory that's murky and not black
and white and not crystal clearthat you've succeeded, you
don't tell your story becauseyou feel that shame again.
(19:38):
What we're missing in Americais the feeling that they're not
all happy ending stories, butthere's some real bright spots
when people are struggling,trying to, and that has to be
celebrated In this book, a lotof the people who I feature.
They're still struggling.
It's important that peopledon't feel alone.
The worst thing people can feelis that there's no one else
(20:02):
like them out there and thenthey feel that desperation and
hopelessness.
And I want people to know thatin the real world these issues
play themselves out in thecriminal justice system,
obviously in the workplace, inthe healthcare system and, most
importantly, in the family,which, by the way, does not have
the tools to talk about theseissues because there's silence,
(20:24):
right, there's no kind ofnarratives that help people come
to grips with what it is tolive with someone who is
struggling with one of theseillnesses.
So everybody's affected.
And I think, tony, the way we'vechanged the kind of political
dynamic is also to change thecultural dynamic.
So the culture really stilljudges people.
(20:46):
It's just very dangerous to dothat and think that we can get
the kind of attention becausewe're dismissed and we are
devalued and that really throughthe implicit kind of well,
you're not capable.
It's like what we do withseniors they're in the scrap
heap, they're not able tocontribute anymore to society,
(21:08):
they're no longer useful.
We have, unfortunately, thisstill is very persistent feeling
, unless you're active in theworkforce, unless you're really
productive, that you're somehownot worthy.
One of the things I'm workingon now is to try to get the
ecumenical community, the faithcommunity, to weigh in heavy on
(21:30):
these issues.
My church, the Catholic Church,has been really missing in
action on helping its communityof parishioners.
So in my church and where Ilive, people know that I'm in
recovery.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
I'm sure, because people know what you're going
through, what you've beenthrough, they probably reach out
to you for advice.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
I am inundated, Tony, from fellow parishioners who
are looking for help for theirloved ones, because I'm the only
one they know.
I had the good fortune meetingwith the Holy Father a month ago
Cardinal Stupich from Chicago,Cardinal Tobin, who is here in
my state now in New Jersey andthey were very interested in
(22:18):
really ramping up the wayCatholic Church supports lay
people, which is like non-clergyfor people who are not familiar
with the Catholic Church.
So we have to empower communitymembers to help each other and,
President Kennedy's, the thingI find whenever I've traveled is
that people were so inspired bythe very simple phrase ask not
(22:41):
what your country could do foryou, but what you could do for
your country.
People want to be of service toothers.
You go to a Special Olympicsevent.
People are joyful, happy.
Why?
Because they're in communionwith others.
They're celebrated for theirhumanity, their common sense of
dignity, the dignity of everyhuman being.
(23:03):
And we're all children of Godand we're all helping each other
.
There's a feeling of fraternityof God and we're all helping
each other.
There's a feeling of fraternity.
And the happiest I am, Tony, onany given week is when I get a
phone call to ask someone whoasked me to help a loved one who
can get insurance, because Ican get help with their
insurance company.
Since that's been my life'swork, I know all those folks.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
That must give you just a great feeling to have the
ability to help some of thesepeople.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
That's when I'm feeling the best about myself,
because I'm useful to someoneelse and, frankly, in recovery,
that's the secret sauce to thepsychic change that we have to
have in order to have long-termsobriety.
We have to have a consciouscontact with a higher power,
which means we cannot be feelingas if we're controlling
everything.
We have to be just servants todoing the next right thing and
(23:54):
helping others who are in needof struggling, because that's
how we get relief from theburden of our own self-centered,
selfish thinking, which createstorture internally in terms of
our feeling of worrying aboutwe're going to lose what we have
or not get what we want.
And I think we as a countryneed to really embrace that and,
frankly, it's a very bipartisanand, as I said, spiritual thing
(24:18):
.
So I'm working with theCatholic Church to try to do
some things and we are nowfinding synagogues and mosques
and other faith leaders who areinterested in doing because,
frankly, these are ubiquitous.
Every faith tradition is dealingwith the challenges that
families are facing, because thechurch doesn't always know.
(24:38):
They're not in the business ofgetting someone who's got
schizophrenia or bipolaraddiction to treatment.
That's not their job.
But they can be there for thefamilies of those folks and as a
person who grew up in a familythat suffered from alcoholism,
there's very little in the wayof Al-Anon, which is the group
12-step group for people whohave family members who are
(25:02):
suffering from these illnesses,and I figure maybe churches and
other places of worship can domore to help those families
going through this encouraginggroup conversations within the
parish, within others within theparish who are facing similar
things.
That's, I think, one of theways we widen the aperture of
getting support for these causesis we've got to appeal to the
(25:26):
common humanity of every singleperson, because everybody wants
the current system to change.
It's so vital for all of ourself-interest.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
What about the economics and how it affects
people?
Speaker 2 (25:40):
Economically it's a powerhouse of an issue because
if you can reduce the stress oncaregivers, that helps employers
who are seeing people cycle inand out.
And now, in the new world thatwe're in, there's so much talent
and creativity amongst thesecaregivers who can't contribute
that economic value becausethey're so burned out and they
(26:01):
can't continue in their jobsbecause they have no support for
their family members.
So the good news with themodern world is we can measure
the seismic impact of ourcurrent failed approach to
helping meet the needs of thewhole family, and I think that
will be what drives a lot ofpeople to want to invest in this
(26:23):
space, because they'll see theeconomic returns and then, of
course, a lot of other peoplewill see the personal and
humanistic returns.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
Yeah, that's a great point If we can just get that
stigma away from it so peoplecan embrace it and find ways to
help.
I was speaking with a guy.
He says if I tell people I'mautistic, they question him.
Yet if he was to tell them thathe had cancer, they would say,
oh, that's too bad, how can Ihelp?
So ultimately we have to getthat cohesiveness so everyone
(26:55):
can find it within themselves toreach out to people.
Whether it's autism, mentalhealth, doesn't matter what it
is.
They have to find it withinthemselves to offer their hand
and help.
That's right, that's right,that's right.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
The beautiful thing is that for people with these
diagnoses, that they can helpeach other.
The relief comes from being incommunity, because isolation is
what's really impacting thewhole public health.
People are being isolated forany number of reasons.
I think, if we make the focusisolation, people with
(27:31):
disabilities are the mostisolated of the group, but there
, but for the grace of God, wedo not want to isolate people.
It's our loved ones, it's us,it's the society that suffers if
we do that.
We've got a lot of work to do,but it's a time where people
again, we need somesophistication to plan a
(27:54):
strategy around changingpeople's perceptions.
That's what political campaignsat their best are about helping
to educate and build acoalition around kinds of ideas.
A coalition around kinds ofideas.
That's what we need.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
Absolutely.
What is it that you would liketo tell the listeners that you
feel is very important for themto hear concerning all the work
that you're trying to do to helpthose that need our help?
Speaker 2 (28:24):
In shameless self-promotions Profiles, in
Mental Health Courage.
I have in the back of the book,as I said, a QR code for our
alignment for product.
In order to make a difference,tony, we need to align the
various pieces of supports thatwe need.
Some addictions thinking aboutemployment Employment is key to
(28:49):
the self-esteem and sense ofpurpose for people who are
struggling in recovery, tryingto build stability in their
lives.
Housing who thinks that housingis what someone who has a
medical need needs?
Housing's crucial.
If you don't have a stableplace, you can't get the most
efficacious treatment.
What about these othercombinations?
And the problem is, the wholegovernment is siloed by budget.
(29:13):
So there's so much money forhousing, so much for labor, so
much for criminal justice, somuch for human services, so
forth, and what we fail to do issay how much of this money in
housing is helping leverage theinvestments we're making in
health care or in reducing thecriminal justice spend.
Because we unfortunately have nocrisis response, by the way,
(29:36):
for people with intellectualdisabilities, who too often get
arrested because of the lack ofliteracy on the part of first
responders about someone withintellectual disabilities,
someone with mental illness, andso we need to have a
multi-pronged, systems-basedapproach, and so that's why I
(29:58):
call this the alignment forprogress, and I'm working with
all the other advocacy groupsbecause we have to align.
We all have an interest in this.
Even though some of us have aninterest in this piece of the
continuum and others have aninterest in this piece of the
continuum, nothing will workunless we're all understood that
(30:19):
this has got to be a continuum,and it requires all of our
efforts, no matter where we are,to have a wider view of all the
other aspects that need to gointo helping people live their
fullest lives.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
Yes, that's amazing that you brought up the part
about work.
I had Temple Grandin on thepodcast.
One of the most importantthings that she focused on was
getting people back to work.
She mentioned creating a pilotchecklist for them to follow,
getting them to the workforce,where it would create a win-win
situation for all.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
Yeah, I just might make a shameless plug too for
Best Buddies.
So I've been on the board ofBest Buddies, which was started
by my cousin, Anthony Shriver,and their really focus is
employment.
So they do work with companiesthat are willing to hire folks.
Those folks have to obviouslybe mentors, supported in
employment.
(31:12):
They also have it's like bigbrothers, big sisters.
So for Special Olympians who,when they're not out competing
in Special Olympics, need to besupported in their community,
Just a big shameless plug forBest Buddies.
Speaker 1 (31:25):
That's all right.
It's about anything that canhelp.
This has been a greatconversation, great information.
I really appreciate you comingon.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
Tony, congratulations on all your incredible work and
success.
As a recording artist andproducer, I love music.
My mom was a concert pianist.
Obviously, the big tribute toPresident Kennedy is the John F
Kennedy Center for PerformingArts, because that's where we
get our spirit, our sense ofidentity, culture from the arts,
and I have to think you feel sofulfilled having been able to
(31:56):
be such a big part ofcontributing to our culture as a
nation.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
Yeah, I really appreciate that.
It's been a really greatjourney for me working with as
many people as I've worked with.
Yeah, I'm very fortunate indeed.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
Yeah, it's great, it's great.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
Well.
Again, thanks for coming on.
It's been great.
Thanks so much, Tony.
It's been my pleasure.
Thanks for taking the time outof your busy schedule to listen
to our show today.
We hope that you enjoyed it asmuch as we enjoyed bringing it
to you.
If you know anyone that wouldlike to tell us their story,
(32:37):
send them to TonyMantorcomContact then they can give us
their information so one daythey may be a guest on our show.
One more thing we ask telleveryone everywhere about why
Not Me, the world, theconversations we're having and
(32:58):
the inspiration our guests giveto everyone everywhere that you
are not alone in this world.
Welcome to why Not Me ?
The World Podcast, hosted byTony Mantor, broadcasting from
Music City, usa, nashville,tennessee.
Join us as our guests tell ustheir stories.
Some will make you laugh, somewill make you cry.
Tell us their stories.
Some will make you laugh, somewill make you cry.
(00:26):
Real life people who willinspire and show that you are
not alone In this world.
Hopefully, you gain moreawareness, acceptance and a
better understanding For autismAround the world.
Hi, I'm Tony Mantor.
(00:53):
Welcome to why Not Me?
The World Humanity OverHandcuffs special event.
Joining us today is PatrickKennedy, a retired American
politician and mental healthadvocate.
He was a Democratic member ofthe United States House of
Representatives who served from1995 to 2011.
As the youngest son of SenatorTed Kennedy and nephew of former
(01:15):
US President John F Kennedy andformer Senator Robert Kennedy,
he joins us to share his journeyof becoming a mental health
advocate.
We are honored to have him joinus today.
Thanks for coming on.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Oh, thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
It's my pleasure.
You've written a lot of billswhile you was in the House.
What kind of strategies wentinto formulating those bills to
try and get them passed?
So the outcome is, of course,helping the people that need it.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
So the outcome is, of course, helping the people that
need it.
It was more driven out of firstthis general interest to
promote mental health andaddiction.
I instinctively knew that thiswas a marginalized population
and I definitely think that myhaving grown up in my family
(02:03):
really sensitized me to that,with my aunt starting Special
Olympics and with my dad's workto try to build health care
coverage.
And in addition to theAmericans with Disability Act,
we need something similar toadvocate for mental health and
addiction.
And of course, my ownexperience as a policymaker made
(02:24):
me realize that we had siloedthe elements of an advocacy
movement so that everybody wasdefined by their diagnoses
rather than defined by theirneeds, which frankly overlap.
Whether you have autism,parkinson's lap, whether you
(02:48):
have autism, parkinson's,alzheimer's, addiction,
schizophrenia, bipolar 99% ofour agenda all in
community-based care is reallywhat should propel.
A more cohesive, organized andsophisticated effort to promote
a new paradigm of delivery, forcare that involves the community
and social supports willfrankly do more for people with
(03:09):
these illnesses than just purelymedical interventions, although
the only way we pay for healthcare today is through medical
intervention.
I have to say a lot of growingup and watching my father in the
Senate and my own experiencereally, I think, helped me
organize my thinking, which, ofcourse, itself was influenced by
(03:33):
having read a lot about thecivil rights movement, my dad's
work on disability and healthcare rights.
That's how I figured out this isan area that I want to make a
difference in because, frankly,unlike a lot of areas of society
, this is not a well-developedarea in terms of a level of
(03:56):
sophistication that is requiredto meet the current demands that
our country has for a muchbetter, effective mental health
and addiction system.
And, of course, I ran foroffice so many times.
I understand the basic calculusof how you get elected and my
(04:16):
wife ran for Congress a coupleof years ago and it really
became super apparent to me howmuch we are missing in this
space, that she could get 100brick layers the day after
tomorrow to show up somewhere,but she couldn't get 100 of
anything on mental health to doanything for her.
On election day she had 5,000teachers all throughout the
(04:40):
district holding signs andpassing out leaflets.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Yes, it's tough to get the support sometimes on
something that is just soimportant.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
This is a bigger issue than any other issue in
the country, but we have nolistserv, we have no advocacy
movement per se.
That's what's really shaped mythinking about.
This is my own experience.
And then, of course, I havelived experience someone who's
dealt with addiction and mentalillness, both myself personally
(05:10):
and within my family and Iinstinctively knew too that
there's huge shame and stigma.
And of course, as I said,comparing that to historical
battles againstinstitutionalized discrimination
against minorities was clear tome that a lot of those implicit
(05:36):
biases that you see reflectedin the way that we only pay
women 74 cents on the dollar, orhow people of color are
disproportionately representedin our criminal justice system,
and there are some obviousexamples of how we have not made
America whole in terms of theway it treats everybody,
(05:57):
regardless of sexual orientation, race, gender, so forth.
I definitely knew that thisissue fit in that paradigm
because people were marginalized.
There's no funding entrenchedin the reimbursement system to
take care of these illnesses.
It really is quite shockingwhen you think this day and age,
(06:19):
without all the new advocacy,we wouldn't still be paying any
attention to it.
Frankly, the tragic increase insuicide and overdose, which is
getting some public attentionjust the last few years.
So I would say the politicalenvironment for these issues is
dramatically different than itwas when I was in Congress.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
When you was in Congress, you got several things
done.
How did you go aboutaccomplishing that?
You?
Speaker 2 (06:43):
got several things done.
How did you go aboutaccomplishing that?
When I was in Congress, I gotthe parity bill passed, because
my dad is best friends withChris Dodd and I grew up knowing
Chris Dodd, and when we triedto get the bill passed, chris
Dodd was chairman of the bankingcommittee and I got Chris, with
his help and leadership, toinclude the Mental Health,
(07:03):
parity and Addiction Equity Actinto the bailout of the big
banks, which, as you recall, in2008, was a must to save our
economy from going into anotherfinancial Great Depression.
It wasn't because mental healthwas a big issue politically
that we passed this parity lawthat I had the honor of
co-sponsoring with my Republicancolleague, jim Ramstead.
(07:26):
It was through the back door,if you will, of this other
legislation that we needed topass that I tacked on the parity
bill, thereby getting it topass.
Any of that sheds any light towhat it's been like to try to
advocate for these issues.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
Yeah, absolutely.
Over the last 20, 30 years, theperception of autism, mental
health it's changed.
It still has a long way to go,though there's still a certain
perception that people have thatis not true, yet that's what
they think is true, so that'swhat we're stuck with.
What can we do to change that,so that people still have the
(08:05):
opportunity to get help, so theycan get out there, work, have a
family and contribute the waythey initially thought that they
could?
Speaker 2 (08:14):
I think that we need to organize ourselves
politically to get the policychanges we need.
When you think about thegraying of America, you think
about Alzheimer's and, frankly,you think about other
communities that suffer fromgreat disabilities, you think
about all of the caregivers,predominantly women, and how
(08:39):
this impacts the whole family.
Right, what's missing in all ofthose issues is the family and
the holistic approach Because,as I said, we look at these
diagnoses in a vacuum.
We think about just the medicalside.
Frankly, parity, mental HealthParity and Addiction Equity Act
(09:02):
has become a major tool for theIDD community, particularly
autism, because families withchildren with autism need all
the wraparound services andthose wraparound services are
essential in the treatment, ifyou will, the delivery of
healthcare to that population.
(09:23):
So it's really been a paritythat has become a really great
tool for families to get whatthey need, because the parity
law highlights the disparitiesin access to care, the
disparities in reimbursement byinsurance companies.
But my point is that we allshare companies.
(09:44):
But my point is that we allshare, as I said, this need for
home and community-based careand we as a country are just
going into this new space wherewe're sick and tired of the
healthcare system as itcurrently stands, which is only
focused on sick care.
Right, we have no appreciationfor how we could deliver health
(10:07):
to more Americans at a fractionof the current cost.
We are four times higher thanthe next industrialized nation
in terms of the cost of healthcare, and yet our people are
going without health care andit's too financially prohibitive
and it's the leading cause ofbankruptcy.
So you have to say to yourselfwhen are we going to fix this?
(10:30):
It's currently money that'sbeing eaten up in really end of
the life care, end of illnesscare, when it just consumes so
many resources, when, if wecould move things upstream, we
could really mitigate downstreamcosts.
And this is not just some hopeor wish.
This has been demonstrated byscience.
(10:51):
But our medical system makesprofits based upon quarterly and
yearly budgets.
In other words, we don't havebudgets that reflect the return
on investment for a longerperiod of time, which, if we did
, we would pay for things thatwe don't pay for today.
That would have cumulativelymuch bigger return on investment
(11:15):
.
The bottom line is we just needto have a more sophisticated
approach and I think that when Ikept running for office, I
would have certainconstituencies that would
support me what they asked for.
I prioritized because they wereinfluential in my political
career.
What I find now with theseissues is we don't have the
(11:39):
political power that we need toget policymakers to pay close
enough attention to what we needas they try to make sense of
all the demands on their timeand energy, and so, at the end
of the day, I really see this asa political power issue.
(11:59):
I think the Kennedy Forum,which I started on the 50th
anniversary of President Kennedysigning the Community Mental
Health Act of 1963.
I talked all about thecommunity, how we have to build
an agenda around a policyroadmap.
But now we have what we need toknow about what works and what
(12:21):
doesn't.
Sure, we need to continue toinvest in that.
But now it's implementation,now it's the time of action.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
How do we get this turned around so that we can get
the action and the focus onwhat is needed?
Speaker 2 (12:34):
You can't get the action unless the elected
officials really see the powerof this advocacy world world Now
, I have to say, for autism.
They have done a fantastic jobat really bringing political
power to bear on behalf of theautism community.
(12:55):
It really is impressive.
That said, they have a lot withthe mental health community,
but even the autism communitydoesn't always see that, just
like the mental health communitydoesn't see how the autism
community is part of our agenda.
If you look at the KennedyCenter at Vanderbilt University
in Nashville, they have theCenter for Research Around the
(13:19):
Comorbidities of Anxiety andDepression, depression with
autism.
And, not surprisingly, peoplewith autism feel socially
alienated, they are marginalized, they are bullied and hence
they have a lot of anxiety.
(13:39):
But when you think they must betaken care of by the IDD system
, the IDD system doesn't thinkof itself as a mental health
system in addition to an IDD.
So you can have group homes,you can have supports, but those
supports do not have theinsight about the mental health
(14:00):
needs of people withintellectual disabilities,
because they're no differentthan anyone else.
In fact, my Aunt, rosemary, whowas born with an intellectual
disability, had also apsychiatric condition of bipolar
, which was the reason mygrandparent chosen to give her a
lobotomy, which of course was adisaster and which relegated
(14:22):
her to really the secrecy of aconvent out in Wisconsin, which
was not acknowledged by myfamily until President Kennedy,
in his second year in office,said to my Aunt, eunice, that it
was time that the family comeout and acknowledge Rosemary's
situation.
Ironically, that tragedy in myfamily sparked a movement,
(14:45):
because it was Eunice who thentook that feeling of being
isolated and marginalized andturned it into something called
the Special Olympics, wheresport was.
The point I'm making is,rosemary had both an
intellectual disability and apsychiatric condition and we
(15:13):
still, even to this day, onlyfocus on one or the other.
We don't focus about bringingholistic care to people.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
Yes, I 100% agree.
We definitely need to find aunity so that everyone can be
helped.
Unfortunately, in our country,we live in a society if it
doesn't affect us, it's not aproblem, but then when it does
affect us, it's a huge problem.
Congress is exactly the sameway.
They live their lives just likeeveryone else.
How do we get the point acrossto them that this is an issue
(15:44):
that has to be addressed so thateveryone in our country can
live a fulfilled life?
Speaker 2 (15:51):
We have to meet each constituent group on what their
audiences and how our issue willpenetrate with that group.
It's not a monolithic messagethat will work with all groups
the same.
I will say that when I was inCongress and I'd gotten a DWI
and was in treatment and then Icame back, I got a lot of my
(16:14):
colleagues who, frankly, I'dnever really talked to before
reach out to me.
They had sent me notes, getwell notes and so forth.
When I was in rehab and I wentto their offices they always
just wanted to meet with just meand by the time that whole
experience ended I knew dozensof my colleagues who themselves
(16:35):
were struggling with addictionor depression, anxiety, or who
obviously had family members whostruggled.
I can guarantee you none ofthem knew each other, because no
one leads with this right.
Everybody knows if someonestruggled and fought the good
(16:55):
fight with cancer.
Largely for people in recoveryfrom addiction like myself,
there's a quote anonymity, theanonymous nature of these
illnesses, and that reallylimits our ability to connect to
others in society and also tobuild a political movement.
So I am a big believer in thespiritual nature of anonymity.
(17:20):
I think all I say is I'm amember of a 12-step recovery
group and I'm a person inlong-term recovery.
I have not, in that phrase,Tony, said anything about what
12-step group I'm in.
And so, for those of my friendsand fellow trudgers who are
listening to this, it's possibleto be political and public
(17:41):
about our recoveries withoutviolating the 11th tradition of
our 12-step recovery movement.
There's at least 28 millionAmericans in long-term recovery.
No one knows who these peopleare because they're all in
church basements and they keepsilent about it because they
think that's the way you shoulddo.
So if you want to build apolitical movement, it's pretty
hard to do if people aren'twilling to raise their hands,
(18:03):
and I think the shame onintellectual disabilities have
been dramatically changed, and Ithink really in large part to
major contributions from peoplelike my aunt.
I don't think people reallyknow how many other people
around them really struggle.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
Now you wrote a book.
In that book didn't you addresssome of these issues with the
families and how things could beadapted to help them?
Speaker 2 (18:30):
With my book Profiles .
In Mental Health Courage Ifeature 12 people and their
families.
So, tony, to your point, thefamily is left out of this
conversation.
If we looked at the one in four, one in three whatever the
number is that they cooked up inthe last year or two on how
many people this affects, youlose sight of the fact that it's
(18:53):
one in one, because everysingle family in America has
someone who's been suffering.
It's just impossible not to.
We all have brains, like everyother organ in the body.
It gets sick, just likeanything else.
It has challenges and we needto treat these illnesses as
opposed to shame people who aresuffering from them.
But in each of these stories Iinclude the family members
(19:18):
because, for those of us who arefortunate to make it out of the
depth of despair, we're theonly ones who tell our story, in
a sense, because if it's astory that's murky and not black
and white and not crystal clearthat you've succeeded, you
don't tell your story becauseyou feel that shame again.
(19:38):
What we're missing in Americais the feeling that they're not
all happy ending stories, butthere's some real bright spots
when people are struggling,trying to, and that has to be
celebrated In this book, a lotof the people who I feature.
They're still struggling.
It's important that peopledon't feel alone.
The worst thing people can feelis that there's no one else
(20:02):
like them out there and thenthey feel that desperation and
hopelessness.
And I want people to know thatin the real world these issues
play themselves out in thecriminal justice system,
obviously in the workplace, inthe healthcare system and, most
importantly, in the family,which, by the way, does not have
the tools to talk about theseissues because there's silence,
(20:24):
right, there's no kind ofnarratives that help people come
to grips with what it is tolive with someone who is
struggling with one of theseillnesses.
So everybody's affected.
And I think, tony, the way we'vechanged the kind of political
dynamic is also to change thecultural dynamic.
So the culture really stilljudges people.
(20:46):
It's just very dangerous to dothat and think that we can get
the kind of attention becausewe're dismissed and we are
devalued and that really throughthe implicit kind of well,
you're not capable.
It's like what we do withseniors they're in the scrap
heap, they're not able tocontribute anymore to society,
(21:08):
they're no longer useful.
We have, unfortunately, thisstill is very persistent feeling
, unless you're active in theworkforce, unless you're really
productive, that you're somehownot worthy.
One of the things I'm workingon now is to try to get the
ecumenical community, the faithcommunity, to weigh in heavy on
(21:30):
these issues.
My church, the Catholic Church,has been really missing in
action on helping its communityof parishioners.
So in my church and where Ilive, people know that I'm in
recovery.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
I'm sure, because people know what you're going
through, what you've beenthrough, they probably reach out
to you for advice.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
I am inundated, Tony, from fellow parishioners who
are looking for help for theirloved ones, because I'm the only
one they know.
I had the good fortune meetingwith the Holy Father a month ago
Cardinal Stupich from Chicago,Cardinal Tobin, who is here in
my state now in New Jersey andthey were very interested in
(22:18):
really ramping up the wayCatholic Church supports lay
people, which is like non-clergyfor people who are not familiar
with the Catholic Church.
So we have to empower communitymembers to help each other and,
President Kennedy's, the thingI find whenever I've traveled is
that people were so inspired bythe very simple phrase ask not
(22:41):
what your country could do foryou, but what you could do for
your country.
People want to be of service toothers.
You go to a Special Olympicsevent.
People are joyful, happy.
Why?
Because they're in communionwith others.
They're celebrated for theirhumanity, their common sense of
dignity, the dignity of everyhuman being.
(23:03):
And we're all children of Godand we're all helping each other
.
There's a feeling of fraternityof God and we're all helping
each other.
There's a feeling of fraternity.
And the happiest I am, Tony, onany given week is when I get a
phone call to ask someone whoasked me to help a loved one who
can get insurance, because Ican get help with their
insurance company.
Since that's been my life'swork, I know all those folks.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
That must give you just a great feeling to have the
ability to help some of thesepeople.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
That's when I'm feeling the best about myself,
because I'm useful to someoneelse and, frankly, in recovery,
that's the secret sauce to thepsychic change that we have to
have in order to have long-termsobriety.
We have to have a consciouscontact with a higher power,
which means we cannot be feelingas if we're controlling
everything.
We have to be just servants todoing the next right thing and
(23:54):
helping others who are in needof struggling, because that's
how we get relief from theburden of our own self-centered,
selfish thinking, which createstorture internally in terms of
our feeling of worrying aboutwe're going to lose what we have
or not get what we want.
And I think we as a countryneed to really embrace that and,
frankly, it's a very bipartisanand, as I said, spiritual thing
(24:18):
.
So I'm working with theCatholic Church to try to do
some things and we are nowfinding synagogues and mosques
and other faith leaders who areinterested in doing because,
frankly, these are ubiquitous.
Every faith tradition is dealingwith the challenges that
families are facing, because thechurch doesn't always know.
(24:38):
They're not in the business ofgetting someone who's got
schizophrenia or bipolaraddiction to treatment.
That's not their job.
But they can be there for thefamilies of those folks and as a
person who grew up in a familythat suffered from alcoholism,
there's very little in the wayof Al-Anon, which is the group
12-step group for people whohave family members who are
(25:02):
suffering from these illnesses,and I figure maybe churches and
other places of worship can domore to help those families
going through this encouraginggroup conversations within the
parish, within others within theparish who are facing similar
things.
That's, I think, one of theways we widen the aperture of
getting support for these causesis we've got to appeal to the
(25:26):
common humanity of every singleperson, because everybody wants
the current system to change.
It's so vital for all of ourself-interest.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
What about the economics and how it affects
people?
Speaker 2 (25:40):
Economically it's a powerhouse of an issue because
if you can reduce the stress oncaregivers, that helps employers
who are seeing people cycle inand out.
And now, in the new world thatwe're in, there's so much talent
and creativity amongst thesecaregivers who can't contribute
that economic value becausethey're so burned out and they
(26:01):
can't continue in their jobsbecause they have no support for
their family members.
So the good news with themodern world is we can measure
the seismic impact of ourcurrent failed approach to
helping meet the needs of thewhole family, and I think that
will be what drives a lot ofpeople to want to invest in this
(26:23):
space, because they'll see theeconomic returns and then, of
course, a lot of other peoplewill see the personal and
humanistic returns.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
Yeah, that's a great point If we can just get that
stigma away from it so peoplecan embrace it and find ways to
help.
I was speaking with a guy.
He says if I tell people I'mautistic, they question him.
Yet if he was to tell them thathe had cancer, they would say,
oh, that's too bad, how can Ihelp?
So ultimately we have to getthat cohesiveness so everyone
(26:55):
can find it within themselves toreach out to people.
Whether it's autism, mentalhealth, doesn't matter what it
is.
They have to find it withinthemselves to offer their hand
and help.
That's right, that's right,that's right.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
The beautiful thing is that for people with these
diagnoses, that they can helpeach other.
The relief comes from being incommunity, because isolation is
what's really impacting thewhole public health.
People are being isolated forany number of reasons.
I think, if we make the focusisolation, people with
(27:31):
disabilities are the mostisolated of the group, but there
, but for the grace of God, wedo not want to isolate people.
It's our loved ones, it's us,it's the society that suffers if
we do that.
We've got a lot of work to do,but it's a time where people
again, we need somesophistication to plan a
(27:54):
strategy around changingpeople's perceptions.
That's what political campaignsat their best are about helping
to educate and build acoalition around kinds of ideas.
A coalition around kinds ofideas.
That's what we need.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
Absolutely.
What is it that you would liketo tell the listeners that you
feel is very important for themto hear concerning all the work
that you're trying to do to helpthose that need our help?
Speaker 2 (28:24):
In shameless self-promotions Profiles, in
Mental Health Courage.
I have in the back of the book,as I said, a QR code for our
alignment for product.
In order to make a difference,tony, we need to align the
various pieces of supports thatwe need.
Some addictions thinking aboutemployment Employment is key to
(28:49):
the self-esteem and sense ofpurpose for people who are
struggling in recovery, tryingto build stability in their
lives.
Housing who thinks that housingis what someone who has a
medical need needs?
Housing's crucial.
If you don't have a stableplace, you can't get the most
efficacious treatment.
What about these othercombinations?
And the problem is, the wholegovernment is siloed by budget.
(29:13):
So there's so much money forhousing, so much for labor, so
much for criminal justice, somuch for human services, so
forth, and what we fail to do issay how much of this money in
housing is helping leverage theinvestments we're making in
health care or in reducing thecriminal justice spend.
Because we unfortunately have nocrisis response, by the way,
(29:36):
for people with intellectualdisabilities, who too often get
arrested because of the lack ofliteracy on the part of first
responders about someone withintellectual disabilities,
someone with mental illness, andso we need to have a
multi-pronged, systems-basedapproach, and so that's why I
(29:58):
call this the alignment forprogress, and I'm working with
all the other advocacy groupsbecause we have to align.
We all have an interest in this.
Even though some of us have aninterest in this piece of the
continuum and others have aninterest in this piece of the
continuum, nothing will workunless we're all understood that
(30:19):
this has got to be a continuum,and it requires all of our
efforts, no matter where we are,to have a wider view of all the
other aspects that need to gointo helping people live their
fullest lives.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
Yes, that's amazing that you brought up the part
about work.
I had Temple Grandin on thepodcast.
One of the most importantthings that she focused on was
getting people back to work.
She mentioned creating a pilotchecklist for them to follow,
getting them to the workforce,where it would create a win-win
situation for all.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
Yeah, I just might make a shameless plug too for
Best Buddies.
So I've been on the board ofBest Buddies, which was started
by my cousin, Anthony Shriver,and their really focus is
employment.
So they do work with companiesthat are willing to hire folks.
Those folks have to obviouslybe mentors, supported in
employment.
(31:12):
They also have it's like bigbrothers, big sisters.
So for Special Olympians who,when they're not out competing
in Special Olympics, need to besupported in their community,
Just a big shameless plug forBest Buddies.
Speaker 1 (31:25):
That's all right.
It's about anything that canhelp.
This has been a greatconversation, great information.
I really appreciate you comingon.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
Tony, congratulations on all your incredible work and
success.
As a recording artist andproducer, I love music.
My mom was a concert pianist.
Obviously, the big tribute toPresident Kennedy is the John F
Kennedy Center for PerformingArts, because that's where we
get our spirit, our sense ofidentity, culture from the arts,
and I have to think you feel sofulfilled having been able to
(31:56):
be such a big part ofcontributing to our culture as a
nation.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
Yeah, I really appreciate that.
It's been a really greatjourney for me working with as
many people as I've worked with.
Yeah, I'm very fortunate indeed.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
Yeah, it's great, it's great.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
Well.
Again, thanks for coming on.
It's been great.
Thanks so much, Tony.
It's been my pleasure.
Thanks for taking the time outof your busy schedule to listen
to our show today.
We hope that you enjoyed it asmuch as we enjoyed bringing it
to you.
If you know anyone that wouldlike to tell us their story,
(32:37):
send them to TonyMantorcomContact then they can give us
their information so one daythey may be a guest on our show.
One more thing we ask telleveryone everywhere about why
Not Me, the world, theconversations we're having and
(32:58):
the inspiration our guests giveto everyone everywhere that you
are not alone in this world.
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