In the Hot Seat: Robert Franklin Calls Out Kevin Clayton on DEI Leadership

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kevin Clayton (00:00):
When the term diversity post George Floyd was
used, DEI was a code word for black.
And the last thing that I wouldsay, because it's a pet peeve of
mine, is that we now have begun tojoke about this on a national stage
by talking about that black job.
Correct.
It's like DEI.

(00:20):
Oh, that's that black job.
No, no, stop saying that.

Tony Tidbit (00:23):
We'll discuss race and how it plays a factor and how we didn't even
talk about this topic because we were.
Welcome to
a Black Executive Perspectivepodcast, a safe space where we
discuss all matters related to race,especially race in corporate America.
I'm your host, Tony Tidbitt.

(00:44):
We are live again at theUniversity of New Haven, 88.
7 on the Richter dial.
We want to thank the University ofNew Haven for partnering with the
Black Executive Perspective Podcastto talk about this important topic.
We hope everyone is havinga good time this semester.
Go Chargers!
And also, we want to make sure thatyou continue To consume our partner's

(01:07):
magazine CODE M magazine Whosemission is first saving the black
family by first saving the black man.
So definitely check themout at codemagazine.
com So today is going to be a veryinteresting day on a black executive
perspective podcast Typically wecome on, we have guests, they share

(01:28):
their stories, but today is goingto be a little bit different today.
We have Kevin Clayton.
Who's the EVP and chief impact officerof the Cleveland Cavaliers and Robert
Franklin, who's the co founder andexecutive educator at seven focus.
Robert brings his insights and challenges.
Some of the views Kevin had on.

(01:51):
Current diversity, equity and inclusionas discussed in the earlier BEP episode,
the truth about DEI challenges together,they'll dive into thoughtful discussion
on the complexities and the involvinglandscape of DEI in today's conversation.
Organizations.

(02:11):
So let me tell you a little bitabout both our esteemed guests here.
Kevin Clayton is the executive vicepresident, chief impact officer at
rock entertainment group and theCleveland Cavaliers with previous
executive roles across variousorganizations, including bond source.
Mercy Health and the U.
S.
Tennis Association.

(02:32):
He founded Jump Ball LLC and beganhis career at Procter Gamble.
Kevin chairs the Greater Cleveland UrbanLeague and black sports professionals
and serves on multiple boards, includingUnited Way of Greater Cleveland.
Of native of Cleveland, he graduatedfrom North Carolina Central University

(02:54):
in Wilmington College, Ohio.
He captained his basketballteam and is a proud member of
Kappa Alpha Phi fraternity.
He has four beautiful daughtersand three grandchildren.
Kevin Clayton, welcome to a blackexecutive perspective podcast.
My brother,

Tony, I'm so happy to be here.
Hopefully you're havinga great day, buddy.

I'm having a beautiful day.
It's awesome.
Let me introduce ourother esteemed guests.
Robert Franklin, the second.
He has been leading diversity,health, equity, and inclusion
initiatives at Cleveland Hospital,Colorado, since 2018 and offers
consultancy services nationwide,focusing on community engagement.

(03:37):
His background includes roles such assuch as leading the diversity catalyst
team at Colorado State University, servingas a trainer for the city and county of
Denver and acting as a health advisor.
Equity officer for the ColoradoPublic Health Association.
As a published author and podcasthosts, Robert co founded Seven

(04:01):
Focus with Prismatic LLC, acompany committed to enhancing
organizational diversity impacts.
This initiative draws on the beliefthat actions today are influenced
by seven generations of leaders.
Before aiming to foster learningand dialogue that lead to a

(04:22):
meaningful diversity outcomes.
Robert Franklin II, welcome to a BlackExecutive Perspective podcast, my brother.

Robert Franklin (04:31):
I appreciate you having me.
It's an honor to be here.

Well, listen, it's an honor for us to have both of you here.
You guys have very, veryaccomplished backgrounds.
If there's anybody to talkabout DEI, it's you guys.
So, and, and we're lookingforward to hearing this
discussion from both of you guys.
So, look.
I'm chomping at the bit to hear from you.
Are you guys ready to talk about it?

Absolutely.
Yep.
100%.

Let's talk about it.
So, let's back up a little bitfor our audience who may not have,
uh, heard Kevin's, uh, episode.
The truth about DEI challengesthat was published on July 9th.
Kevin came on and talked about some ofthe, his background in terms of how, when

(05:18):
he worked at Procter and Gamble back inthe early nineties, how they were doing
DEI initiatives, how they were makingtheir business more profitable by reaching
out and working with other differentgroups and DEI at that time point wasn't
something that was under attack, butthen he also talked about what happened.

(05:38):
After George Floyd incident, how theDEI word and all the impact in terms
of hiring and, and, and, and all theattacks on DEI kind of took off and
went sideways after the George Floyd.
So, I want to play a quick clip of thatepisode and then I love to hear from Kevin
to expand on what he talked about then.

Doors are being opened that maybe weren't open before.
Pledges of money that weren'tthere are now given to us.
And the DEI position, and I'm going to tieall this back together, the DEI position
I told you was the hottest in America,if you were black or a woman, that was
the qualification to become a senior vicepresident or chief diversity officer.

(06:23):
Tony, I don't know of one otherposition that is a real legit position
in corporate America where yourqualification is your skin color, or your
gender, or your sexual identification.
But because people didn't know, andI'm talking about significant, I'm
talking about government, education,business, All in nonprofits, because

(06:46):
they didn't know what this was about.
They were like, look, let mego get a black person and make
him my chief diversity officer.

So I still tickle.
Uh, and obviously I heard it amillion times, but I always laugh
at that as I laughed in that clip.
So talk a little bit about what youwere basically articulating at that
time, Freud, about what was going onwhen it came to DEI, uh, opportunities,
career, the attack after George Floyd.

I probably erred on one thing when I made that statement,
because I actually got into this workback in, call it the, um, you know,
early 90s, because I was black, okay?
I was the highest ranking, um, AfricanAmerican executive in the sales function

(07:40):
with Procter Gamble at the time.
And the whole introduction todiversity and to clarify one thing,
there was no E and I, it was notDEI then, it was just diversity.

It was just diversity.
Yeah.

And therefore I was chosen not only to lead an
organization that was responsible for250 million in sales and 30 people
running our business in the Southeast.
It was, well, Kevin, we need youto also run our DEI program or
I'm sorry, our diversity work.
Tony, I didn't have a clueas to what diversity meant.
I came to P& G for one purpose.

(08:14):
And that purpose was to be the best salesexecutive that they could develop me into.
And when the whole conversation ofdiversity happened, I began to gravitate
towards that because I studied andlearned and understood what the power
of differences and similarities are.
And therefore, that'show I got into the work.
So post George Floyd, it wasjust basically accentuated.

(08:38):
Because so many organizations, as Isaid in the clip, it didn't matter what
industry, so many organizations weresaying, we have to go do something and
that something is we either need to starta DEI team or program, or what we need
to do is enhance the one that we have.
But again, the only qualification,generally speaking, and I know

(09:01):
this because I was also part ofa number of people who came to
steal me away from the calves.
The general qualification was.
Are you a person of color?
Are you a person of a of adifferent dimension of diversity
other than being a white male?
So my point is that if the workis to be taken serious, then you

(09:23):
would need serious qualifications.
So, yes, there arecertifications to do the work.
I don't know of a I don't know theuniversity and Brother Franklin
can can talk to this wherethere's an undergraduate degree.
In DEI, there are certifications andthere's some post graduate kinds of
studies you can do, but we don't hireanybody in our organization without

(09:46):
having some expertise in the expert inthe area in which we're hiring them for.
So that was my point, right?
It was really, it wasn't a commitmentand there's data now that would show
any given day you can pick up the paper.
You can look online to see howmany organizations are disbanding
their DEI departments and thosefolks that rose to the top.
Based on yesterday, they were acommunications manager and now

(10:09):
they're chief diversity officer,no longer have those positions.

So before I get Robert's, uh, uh, response, I just
want to make sure I'm clear here.
Cause you said you erred on one thing.
What was the thing that you erred on?

Because I talked about post George Floyd, when I should have said,
even at the beginning of this work, thecredential of getting into the work was.
Are you something other than a white male?
And that was the, that wasthe necessary credential.
Not do you have expertise in managingleading and leveraging DEI or
diversity or whatever it might be.

(10:43):
So that was a mistake I made.
And that's why I went back to when Igot this work, it was an add on to the
fact that I was running a significantbusiness and it was, ah, Kevin, you're
the highest black in our organization.
You can also leave the diversity work.

Got it.
Got it.
Got it.
Got it.
Okay.
Thanks for that, my friend, Robert,what's your thoughts on that?

Oh, so, so many.
And I think you only have like anhour plan for our conversation today.
So this is a part one of six or seven.
Uh, and, and I appreciate the opportunityseriously to be able to have a
conversation like this, because theblack executive, uh, perspective, Is
unique, not only in the podcast space,but in corporate America in general.

(11:23):
Like look at us, right?
I don't, I don't know that I'veactually had this opportunity to
have a conversation like this.
So Kevin and Tony, uh, thankyou for the opportunity.
And it was that clip.
Actually.
I'm surprised you picked that clip, Tony.
That was the clip for me that I was like,I started to take notes while listening to
the episode, because right out the gate.

(11:43):
Kev, the thing that struck me is thosewomen, uh, women of color, those people
who were chosen did have expertise.
They, they did.
I don't know all of them, right?
They, they do, they did have expertise.
They do have, uh, skills, knowledge,and abilities that by and far were
ignored up until the moment whenthis, uh, our world had this, uh,

(12:06):
social reckoning, if you, if you will.

So Robert, hold on one second, cause I just want
to, cause I want you before yougo, I just want to make sure.
So, Kevin saying, because I wantto be, and I want you to expound
on what you said, Kevin saying thatthe people, including himself, back
in 19, early 90s, when, when, um,when Proctor Campbell said, Hey,
you, you are a black leader, right?

(12:29):
Take over diversity.
Okay.
And so at the end of the day, he didn't,you know, he had a lot of skills.
Okay.
He was an executive at the organization,but when it came to diversity and
building out something, right, that'sgoing to provide and, you know, uh,
uh, increase, you know, uh, differentpeople's voices in the organization.

(12:49):
That's going to blah, blah, blah.
He's what he was saying is there wasno skills specifically people going
to school to learn those things.
Now you're saying.
That goes and use womenspecifically that there was skills.
So I just want to be I would bewhen you say there was skills.
What skills are you talking about?
I just want to be clear becauseI don't want to miss that part.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Being a black man, black woman,woman of color, being a person with
a marginalized identity in the UnitedStates of America and alive at that
same time is in itself a demonstrationof knowledge, skills and abilities.
Code switching is a skill is a skillset to be able to move up in the ranks
in corporate America for people tosay, Hey, Kev, uh, you do this thing

(13:33):
really well, and we've got this otheropportunity that our organization needs
to prioritize for one reason or another.
We think you might beable to do that there.
You Kev, you said, uh, there aren't toomany positions, a CEO positions where.
because of your gender identityand your racial identity that you
can get that kind of position.
The president of the United Stateswas a position solely segregated

(13:56):
for white men for hundreds of years.
Nevermind CEOs of fortune 500companies, leaders of schools
and medicine, blah, blah, blah.
So.
Yeah, gender and racial identityand probably sexual orientation
has mattered for a long, long, andstill does for a long, long time.

(14:16):
So, Tony, the point that I was makingabout being a black dude, being the
black dude in the space, there's tonsof expertise that's there and skills and
talents that they probably saw in you.
And because you're black, they wereable to name that because you were
one of, I'm guessing, not that many.
Now, I will also honor.
That I haven't been in what we call the D.
E.

(14:37):
I.
The D.
The D.
E.
I.
Inclusion spaces for aslong as you have, Kevin.
So I know that things look different.
Sort of, because we have a word fordiversity and there's, it's a work place.
Now it is a, there's this equity that wehave metrics and stuff like that, but.
In the 90s, there were only so many ofus that were even allowed to be in and

(14:58):
around the C suite without having to cleanup the trash cans or wipe off the boards.
And so.
In that moment to be able to have somebodyto have a conversation as a different
perspective than the people who wasin the spaces of the whole time around
the C suite table, the boardroom table.
That is what we call diversity.
Who else was going to do it.
There was only one of y'all there.

(15:20):
I wasn't there but you know therewas only so many of y'all there.
And so, yeah, your blacknessprobably did matter.
And just like all those people thatyou were naming, the thing that I
had to throw the flag on was thatthose people had a lot of talent.
And the fact that those organizations aredisbanding and they're going away, it's
more than just did they not have skillsand abilities to lead the organization.

(15:43):
There's an entire wave of people whodon't want to talk about race, gender,
sexual orientation, and those dimensionsof difference that you may name.
Thank you.
Absent of the talent of those folks.
So that's why I had to throw the flag,and that's why I was really hoping
that we could have this conversation.

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Got it, got it, got it.
So, respond to that, Kevin.

So, Robert, in preparation, I knew there would only be
two things that you could disagree on.
One of which might have been definitionalas to even how we define this work.
And I'm going to go back on that.
And then the second thing was goingto be around the whole implementation

(16:46):
of what this work was about.
There's only two things.
So, um, yeah, a couple of things.
Please don't mistake the lived experienceof any individual as a, his skillset.
My lived experience as a black man didnot get, not put me in a position to be

(17:08):
able to sit down and do an organizationalassessment of what the conditions were
to do a gap analysis by compensation.
It didn't provide me an opportunityto understand what are the nuances in
creating an environment that is inclusive.
What are the nuances of being able toimplement a diversity scorecard that

(17:29):
connects to salary that are based on onmetrics that tied back into performance?
It didn't give me the skill set to beable to analyze a consumer marketing
base to see where the gaps are.
And then how do I go out to communitiesto build the to fill the gap?
Between where we were actuallypenetrating and where we weren't.

(17:50):
Also, it did not give me the opportunity.
It did.
I didn't have the skillset to beable to manage an organization
where I had to make white males.
feel included, just like I did haveto make black folks feel included,
just like I had to make women andpeople and others feel included.
My lived experience only said thatthat gave me the passion to be able to

(18:13):
understand certain things through thelens of Kevin Clayton's lived experience.
That's not a skill set.
So to say that these brothersand sisters had the skills, They
couldn't have had the skills.
One, because the industry is too new.
That's saying that because I'm aconsumer, I can go into marketing.
Nope, not at all.

(18:35):
Now your comment around the, the, and Isaid, I know you're saying this tongue
in cheek, maybe not, but your commentaround the, the president of the United
States, that job was based off of race.
I categorically and absolutelydisagree with that comment.
Just because white males have alwaysbeen the ones that sat in that seat.

(18:59):
There was never any typeof questionnaire around.
Well, if you're a whitemale, you can do this job.
It had nothing to do with that.
Now I don't think skillset andintelligence and any of that have
anything to do with being a presidentas a different conversation.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Different conversation.
It wasn't, that wasn't the requirement.

(19:19):
And I'm telling you.
Flat out because I was one and becauseI talked to brothers and sisters all
across the globe doing this work Theywere only selected because of their,
their, their dimension of diversity.
It wasn't, Hey, can yousit down and explain to me?
And let me just give you an example.
I had an opening for a number two person.

(19:41):
I was hiring for a senior director.
I had people literally, as you canimagine, one because of sports,
but because of the work I had overfive to 600 people respond day one.
And when I looked through theresumes, I had everything from college
professors to coaches to people thathad some experience in doing the work.

(20:03):
I narrowed the field down by askingthem to fill out one question.
Give me an example of when youhave ever implemented a DEI plan
or strategy in an organization.
I narrowed that field from 500to about 50 really quickly.
And those 50 did not have the experienceof ever implementing, creating and

(20:23):
implementing a full fledged plan.
I'm not talking about an HR plan.
I'm not talking about a hiring plan.
I'm talking about a full organizationalplan that's integrated into an
organization that affects everysingle person in that organization.
That is a skill that can only be gottenby having experiences or going through
certifications or what have you.

(20:45):
So that's my push back to that.
And I get the, yes, my life experiencebrings me a certain set, but this is
a specific piece that, I mean, you,you know, this is the work you do.
It is.
And hold

on one second.
Well, hold on one thing, Robert.
I just want to, I want to ask Kevinsomething, then I'll let you go.
So, so Kevin, I hear that, right.
I definitely hear that point.
Right.
Especially.
And I love the way you said, Hey, outof 500 applicants, I was able to wheel
down to 50 by asking him, had they everput a plan together to Totally get it.
That makes total sense.
And implemented it.
And implemented it.
Right.
Let me ask you this though.

(21:19):
How many companies had actually puta plan together and implemented it?
Right.
After the, just to be fair, right.
Just to be fair.
Cause it goes to your point earlier.
They just, Hey, you black or you awoman, this is the qualification.
So if they didn't have a plan, Okay.

(21:40):
To be fair to company, because we knowa lot of them, a lot of these people
who took these roles, they had no tools.
They had no KPIs for success.
They had nothing because the companydidn't know how to put it together.
Would you agree with that?

So Tony, what I would agree with is That the companies
were looking for help and support.
And I'm talking post George Floyd.
I'm talking post George Floyd as well.
They were looking for help and theirmotivation though, for the most part, for
the most part, their motivation was not, Iwant to implement a strategic D and I plan

(22:17):
that's going to be sustainable over time.
And Robert, we're going to buildout your department to X, Y, Z.
It was white guilt.
From the standpoint of they saw ablack man being killed for the first
time by law enforcement officersand you and I, all three of us know
that that happens on the daily.
So, therefore, they werelike, we have to do something.

(22:37):
We heard this thing called D.
I was hot.
Let's go out and find thesefolks and it was to appease.
The black community, it was not toactually develop a str, a strategy
that was going to be organizationallyoperationalized, so that now it's
just how we go about doing things.
It was in response.

So that's my point though.
They didn't even have a plan.
It was more, it was guilt.
It was a response, right?
So they, so, so, okay.
We're on the same page, Robert.

Yeah.
So you were absolutely right, Kev,that there was only two things.
I think I only had two notes that Iwanted to arm wrestle about today.
And so that was definitely one of them.
And so I want to make sure to keep it 100.
We're on the black executiveperspective podcast.
Uh, the idea that Corporate Americadecided, and we know who's in charge
of Corporate America, Corporate Americadecided we need to do something different.

(23:33):
So from Tide and Walmart, the NBA, theNFL, everybody was like, You know what?
We need to see more blackand brown and diverse bodies.
They did the whole thing.
And so they had to create that plan.
Who in the world is going tohave the voice of the black
market, the black market?
Then somebody who identifies as blackbecause prior to not just prior to

(23:55):
George Floyd being murdered, but priorto the 1990s, I would say about a 89 88.
There wasn't even that much of a blackmarket to be thought of in the first
place Um outside of the shucking andjiving and the and uh, newport's,
uh, cool Cigarettes where black menespecially were considered in the black
family wasn't even a thing Um priorto the cosby's generation if you will

or colt 45.

Thank you

billy d williams,

right so when you and you I think we are both going to be
diametrically opposed in this one ideathat lived experience is expertise.
Now, being a black dude by itself, doesthat help you be able to do a gap analysis
in that way for that company or to leada, what is now known as a DEI, uh, metric?

(24:44):
Probably not.
Do you know things because ofyour black maleness in this
country that nobody else knows?
Cause you are Kevin Clayton.
Absolutely.
And that's why I would hire you.
To run this thing that has neverbeen done before, because there's
something that I recognize in youthat you have that I don't have.
And I'll tell you this for justme, those of those folks who

(25:07):
know the work that I have done.
I often hire with that in mind.
What is it that you add to the work thatI that we're doing as a department or as
an organization that I don't have, andthat's a perspective, a lived experience
that I value that doesn't show up.
In your alma mater thatdoesn't show up on your resume.
And in fact, when you ask that question,Kevin, if I, if it was my first DEI,

(25:30):
uh, Uh, appointments, you know, andyou're asking me, okay, Robert have,
what have you done in an organization?
I'm going to tell you about, uh, how Idid that in a club or in, um, the boy
scouts or in JROTC, because one, I'mgoing to arm wrestle you in your own
interview about you said organization.
And those are all organizations,even though I wasn't the one

(25:51):
that was in charge of it.
And then two, I'm going tochallenge you like, well,
you're hiring for this position.
What have you done in this space?
But what all that to say, I do valuelived experience and I think that those
people and I was more concerned aboutthose folks that you were talking about
that got the jobs just right out the gatein 2020 and 2021 as if they didn't have

(26:15):
something to offer beyond those thingsthat they were chosen for point taken,
they were chosen because of what they looklike on the, on the company photo, right?
Or in the company check boxes.
And they brought something that thatorganization didn't have to Tony's point
for an organization that wasn't reallysure what they were going to be doing.
And the reason why we don't see so manyof those programs now and those are

(26:36):
those people in those spaces now thisbecause we have a few organizations
left that actually meant it when theysaid black lives matter that actually
meant it when they said we standwith these marginalized identities.
And that's, that's awhole other conversation.
Then, uh, can we stand onthat, that lived experience?
And the last thing I'll saybefore I go back on mute.

(26:57):
The, the president of theUnited States of America.
There were rules and laws on thebooks that didn't, that prevented,
that prohibited certain people fromparticipating, even in the process, based
on their racial identity, and well, evenin their gender identity, if we think

(27:17):
about the women's suffrage movement.
So, while today, that doesn't exist,and there isn't, I don't, I've never
applied to be President of the UnitedStates, but I don't know if they checked
the box or not, while that, while thatmay or may not exist, it's very clear.
That as a black man in the United Statesin the 1990s, in the, in the 1980s, I

(27:38):
would argue in 2000, trying to, we canask Jesse Jackson, uh, Colin Powell, that
race matters and mattered in even thatposition, even if we weren't screaming
in out loud the same way we were in 1860.
So, you're right thatthose are the two things.
There's two things that we are,we're, we're on different places
on, but I, I will get withyou on, on this thing though.

(27:59):
I, I will say.
You in the work that you've done overtime and certainly in over at the Cavs,
you have put into place work and spacewhere people can start to see themselves.
Uh, and, and that's not onlydiversity, but that's inclusion.
And I think you're alsoworking toward equity.
And so I don't want this to be liketwo black dudes arguing over something

(28:20):
that is not going to get us to progressbecause what I do think is that you
open space over there at the Cavsfor people to say, you know what?
On this language access thing, Iknow a little bit about a little bit.
And so I'm going to go up toKevin and say, like, look, I know
what's going on here because of mycommunity was happening with us.
And that I hope you're going to go, youknow, you have that lived experience.

(28:42):
And I want to grow you because I see thatthat potential in you, which wouldn't
have happened if you hadn't been tappedin the 1990s at Procter and Gamble.

So, Kevin, I'm gonna let you respond and I want to move on to
something else, but go ahead, my friend.
Yeah.

So, so, so Robert, I actually, we're not as far off as
perhaps you rolled into this conversationthinking we were, I mean, cause you
talked about throwing a flag, you talkingabout objecting, I mean, there were a
couple of words you, if there was a,if it would have been live, I'd have
called into the show, I'm telling you.
Yep.

(29:15):
So, so here's what I would offer you.
How do you define diversity?
One word difference.
Diversity.
Okay.
Yep.
And brother, I'm not trying to trumpyou and I'm not using that word.
I would just, I'm just sayingit from a bit with standpoint.
Okay.
I would add differences and similarities.

(29:41):
Okay.

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And that is one of the first things that folks that whenever
I talk about it, because our definitionis a collective mixture of our fans, our
team members, our sponsors, characterizedby both differences and similarities.
I go through this whole exerciseand it's a training exercise.
Let me give you an example.
Um, and I've had a consultingcompany under jump ball.

(30:32):
One of my clients was.
I Omega and you brothers may rememberback in the day where we had the
kind of the tower computers and wehad this little drive on the side
and you put this drive in the sideand that was a memory drive floppy.
Yeah, yeah, well, no, theseare the cartridges now.
It wasn't this.
These are the cartridges and what it was.
They were made by I Omega andthey were located in Ogden.

(30:55):
So they brought me on, they flewme out from Atlanta to Salt Lake
City, go up an hour or so toOgden and I walk in the building.
I'm in the boardroom and literallythere's 12 seats around the
boardroom and they're there.
I'm coming in to give an executivebriefing on what diversity was.
So I looked around the roomand I asked a question.

(31:17):
I said, do we have diversity in this room?
They looked at me and the CEOkind of whispered and said,
well, Kev, if we had diversity inthe room, you wouldn't be here.
Ha ha ha.
Okay.
So I'm like, okay, well,let me test your assumption.
And again, Robert, I'm going back to ourdefinitions of you saying differences,

(31:38):
me saying differences and similarities.
So with that, I asked him, I said,well, let me check what you just said.
Let me just check in with you all.
How many of you wouldconsider yourself white males?
They all raise their hand.
How many of you are Mormons?
They all raise their hand.
How many of you are married?
Half of them raise their hand.
How many of you have kids?

(31:59):
Another percentage raised their hands.
How many of you attendeda four year school?
A certain percentage.
I went through six orseven different questions.
And what they realized, and honestly,they, they were, the questions I
asked, some of them were like, Inever knew that about you, Johnny.
I never knew that about you.
And here's the point.
And I asked him, I said, now letme go back and ask the question.
Do you have diversity in the room?

(32:22):
They were like, yeah,we do have diversity.
Here's my point.
If you, the three of us were to go toany kind of conference and we didn't,
and there were some people we thought weknew, but most people we didn't know, you
know, that feeling when you walk in thatconference room and you're looking around.
Aren't we looking around for somebody thatwe know that we know when we go sit out?

(32:43):
That's right.
And the reason why is that wholefeeling of being alone and different
is like it's an awkward feeling.
No matter how, no matter how flamboyantany of us might be and personable, we
go to look for that person that we, andit doesn't have to be a black person.
It can just be somebody that we knowso we can feel a sense of comfort.

(33:03):
And that gives us some sense of safetyaround, Oh, there's 2000 people in here.
But I, but I know Robert.
So here's the point.
When we think about similarities anddifferent differences and similarities,
it's those similarities that connect usthat even allow us to have a conversation,
and that is why diversity to us isboth, and it's not just differences.

(33:27):
Differences allow me to learn, but thesimilarities and this exercise I go
through, I ask a series of questions tothe most random person in the room, and
I connect with them on different things.
Because what it does, it gives us thatfeeling that I said that we have when
we walk into that ballroom of okay,well, I know something about you.

(33:47):
So with that, it's not about differences.
It's both differences and similarities.
So how I connect that and the reasonI asked you the question is that
a lot of this work that we now do,diversity is a code word for black.
Yeah, correct.
And, and that is not what it,that's, I mean, it can't be.

(34:07):
I have white males that walk upand down these halls and they
would, you'd ask him right now,are you part of our diversity plan?
They would say, of course we are.
Yes, we are now to your point inTony, I'm going to move off of this.
Is the white community, are they the onesthat are in the biggest need right now?
No.
So what we do is we identify acrossmultiple dimensions of diversity.

(34:31):
Whenever something comes up, letit be women's reproductive rights.
Let it be the attackon the black community.
Let it be the attack on theJewish community, the Palestinian
community, whatever it is.
We make statements and connect with them.
And it's not just making statements.
We go to those communitiesand say, how can we help you?
Right?
Because it's all of uscollectively in a community.
It's not just one or the other.

(34:52):
So when the term diversitypost George Floyd was used, D.
E.
I was a code word for black.
And the last thing that I would say,because it's a pet peeve of mine,
is that we now have begun to jokeabout this on a national stage.
By talking about that blackjob, it's like D D E I.

(35:13):
Oh, that's that black job.
No, it didn't.
No.
Stop saying that.
All we're going to do is push peoplefurther away from what needs to happen.
And that is to integrate all of usinto a space that allow us to be
productive in a community at work ona college campus or what have you.
Final thing.
The reason why I said thatwe're not that far away.
It's really nuanced.

(35:34):
Yes, my lived experiences have helpedme to be able to do the work that I that
I do, but my lived experience weren'tthe technical pieces and the expertise
that allowed me to be successful.
And that was it.
Yes.
I just said we need to elevate and weneed to provide black folks, the same
level of training that we did when webrought in a business analytics team.

(35:58):
They didn't know whatthe hell they were doing.
We trained them.
We gave them experiences.
We didn't just say they were expendable.
And when the budget gottight, cut them off.

Buddy, before I go to my next spot, you, you got anything
you want to say to that, Robert?

Oh, there's so many, so many things.
So you're absolutely right.
We are a lot closer and.
I just value your perspective.
I value where you're where you'reat with the passion for it.
And even though that and I likethe cows definition, the diversity
is differences and similarities.
I like I like that.
I'm not going to I'm noteven going to take it.

(36:35):
What you named is so crucial that.
The weaponization and you said that inthe pod with Tony before the weaponization
of DEI has pushed us all again right backto, it's just black and not black and
that code word that's being used, whichis why it's being thrust through all
the media, not just our political media.
And so.

(36:55):
The word diversity, the word equity,the word, the D E I acronym, I've been
pushing for us to get a, get rid of it.
Cause what you said was that we need toget to a place where we all have access to
do the things, to thrive and stay alive.
And so I don't need an acronym forus to be able to get to that piece.
And then all of us need that, that part.
Go ahead, Tony.

No, no, no, that's good stuff.
I'm going to come back to you, my brother.
I want to move to where we,um, Talk solutions here.
I love to hear from your standpoint,Robert and, and, and this, what,
what Kevin just talked aboutkind of kicks this segment off.
Okay.
Is that, and you justspoke to it is weaponized.
It means it's, it's, it's,it's dog whistled now.

(37:36):
Uh, um, They're, they're, they're, they'recutting back on a lot of these, uh,
divisions or departments and companies.
You know, I read HarleyDavidson, which I didn't believe.
I couldn't believe they had aDEI thing, but it doesn't matter.
A lot of companies, Microsoft, a lot ofcompanies are cutting their DEI workforce.
They're just cutting back fromthe pressure because of the

(37:59):
DEI dog whistle and stuff.
So I want to hear from you,buddy, based on all that.
What do you think froma solution standpoint?
You've been in the space.
Okay.
For a long period oftime, talk, talk to us.
I want to hear from Kevintoo, but talk to us.
What do you think needs to happenfor us to take it to the next level,
to overcome the things that arehappening right now that, you know,

(38:24):
four years ago was a, a tidal wave.
To what Kevin was talking about in ourepisode, uh, we're going to do this.
And yeah, it could have been basedon guilt and the whole nine yards,
but now there's a major retraction.
And then more importantly, we're notseeing, uh, the results of what this
was supposed to do from the get go.

(38:46):
Right.
So I love to hear your thoughts on that.

Okay.
So.
Vote better, educate more is theanswer to your, your question.
I know I'll need to elaborate on that.
But, but first though.
Some of us aren't seeing what wassupposed to come of this DEI movement.
If you, I'm a, I'm a kid whowas raised by a wonderful set of
black women and the television.

(39:11):
And so the, I watched a lot ofTV just cause that's what I do.
So I'm watching commercials and whatnot.
And I have seen a huge shift inTide, Walmart, McDonald's, even I
was watching, uh, uh, Home Depot andsay what you will about Home Depot.
And I see people with, uh,uh, assistive technologies.

(39:31):
I see families that are multi, uh,multi families like a different
family dynamics and, uh, differentcues in their, in their, uh,
background and two dads and two moms.
And you know, the, the, all of that stuff.
And I'm like, when I was a kid, when Iwas coming up trying to figure out, do
I want this toy or that toy watching TV?
I didn't see me.
I didn't see Never mind the kind offamilies that I went to school with

(39:54):
being in the urban center or the kindof families that my family's in the
southern part of the United States had.
I didn't see representation like that.
And so there is, there are differentpieces of that work, if you will, from
2024 and even a little bit before that.
And the work that Kev was talkingabout doing, that we are seeing the
benefits of that, which allow meworking in a hospital to say to your

(40:18):
doctor or your kid's doctor, Hey,Those differences, those dimensions of
difference matter when it comes to care.
You can be the great doctor,greatest doctor in the world.
And if you miss the fact that black womenaren't believed about their pain, then if
you miss that part, that race is a part ofthat, you're likely not to get great care,

(40:38):
even though you know all of the science.
So, we are seeing that people are opento that and expecting us to talk about
things like health equity, expecting usto talk to things about bias and how we
treat each other because there has beenso much work and so much effort now across
the country here in the United States.
That wave, that rhetoric, thatdog whistle as you name is

(41:00):
loud and it is, it is popular.
And so there are some places whereyou can't educate yourself, uh, just
by yourself, just going in and I'ma, I'm a product of public education.
That's it's hard now to just goget your history and understand
what's going on in the world.
So we got to do better by our kids and byour folks that are trying to be educated.
And then when we get better educated,we can learn better about how we vote.

(41:23):
And matters to how what we get for oureducation and what our laws looking
like and what opportunities like thisconversation could go away if we're
not careful with how we're voting.
So, those are the two twosolutions that are really, really
big and really, really nuanced.
But I do think that there'ssome hope on the horizon though
Tony, Tony it's not all bad.

(41:44):
Even though we're seeing thatwave come across the nation.

Right, right, right.
Can I, I just want to add, I just want to.
Make a couple of commentsbased on what you said.
And Kevin, I want to hear yourpoint of view and you're right.
You know, I remember years ago, um,and this was early two thousands.
I went to a conference and Idon't remember the publisher of
what it was a woman's, it was,it was a woman's conference.

(42:07):
It was called, um, uh, Uh,advertising women of New York.
Okay.
I don't know if you guys everparticipated, um, huge conference
and they had a few, they were, um,um, um, celebrating some women in the
space and they had, uh, uh, all womenfrom different industries, but there
was a woman, she was a publisher of,I don't, and I don't want to say it

(42:30):
could have been good housekeeping.
I can't remember exactlywhat the magazine was.
But somebody, and it was the Q and Atime, and they asked a question, somebody
asked a question about, uh, when theydidn't see representation in the magazine.
Okay?
And there was probablya thousand people there.

(42:50):
And this lady, and I sat there, and thislady, she said, well, we would never put a
black woman on the cover of our magazine.
Nobody said nothing.
Nobody said what I did.
I was like, she, she saidthat and nobody blinked.
This was 2003 for something like that.
Right.

(43:11):
So, so I never forgot that.
I couldn't believe she said it.
Okay.
And the reason I bring that up, because toyour point now, where you have commercials
now that you have, you know, you see,you know, different, uh, races of people,
husband, wife, the whole nine yards.
I, my, my, my point is.
I don't see that part of being success.

(43:33):
Okay, I, I just don'tsee that part of joy.
You know, we were on this D I wave andnow four years later Well, there's a
commercial sherman commercial Where Isee a black father and a white mother
and we're making progress I don't lookat that as progress to be honest I think
it goes back to what kevin was sayingabout the guilt thing and nobody knew what

(43:54):
to do So they said well, you know what?
Let's let's do this And And, and,and yes, it's great that our young
people can see other people, seethemselves in these spots, but I don't,
if that's what we get out of this,then we, we, we've been, what's that?
What's that old saying?
Uh, uh, hoodwinked all right.
Bamboozled.
Right.
So that's just my thought, Kevin.

Wait, wait, wait.
But okay.
So just, just, just those commercials.
If we're just sticking withthe advertising just for now.
Those commercials represent jobs andopportunities that weren't available
to certain people a lot for not thatlong ago and and relate to their
career paths, their opportunities,their families opportunities.

(44:38):
And so I hear what you'resaying that that's not enough.
I'm not, I don't want to land on that and.
It's more than we've had, andthere's a pathway to getting more
because we see that going on.
It hasn't gone away just because it's.
Different parts of our countryaren't talking about it.
It hasn't gone away.
And that has been a positivething that I wanted to make.

Thanks, buddy.
Kev.

Yep.
So Tony, can I take three minutes?
Yeah,

I got you, buddy.

All right.
Um, I appreciate whatboth of you just said.
And Robert, your solutions,you're absolutely right.
And this thing is so nuanced, and it'sso complicated, because there's not a
silver bullet that's going to kind of bethe one shot that wow, look at us now.
So Tony, I want to go, I want togo back to what you just said.
And I will tell both of you that I wasenlightened by this work by a white male.

(45:31):
It was back in my days of PNG, JohnPepper, our CEO, who was heralded as one
of the best CEOs in corporate America,called together this corporate meeting
for to announce some things in which weare going to do to defend our business.
There were a number of, uh, companiesfrom Asia that were moving in
to the U S buying up companies.

(45:51):
And you all may recall backto automotive industry.
There were Japanese, Taiwanese, Chinese,all that were killing automobile industry.
All right, Chiquita banana, a consumerproducts company, a Taiwanese company
bought Chiquita banana headquartersright across the street from PNG.
If you all know anything about PNG, it'slike, no, you're not going to do that.

(46:14):
It's like, no, you just not go walk inour backyard and build your, your office.
So we have this meeting.
I went to this meeting with this,this white counterpart of mine,
and I was young in my career.
I was in my first level of being promoted.
I was maybe 24, 25 and out ofthe meeting, Mike is his name.
We're sitting there and John sayssomething about total quality management.

(46:36):
And some of you all may rememberthat he started talking about
category management, and then heintroduced this term called diversity.
And he talked about diversity from thestandpoint that if we looked at our
competitors that were coming over fromAsia and then back then they were,
they were all kind of one dimensional.
You didn't see any womenin their boardrooms.
You just saw men representing thosecultures, whether it be Chinese,

(46:59):
Japanese, or whatever it might have been.
And he was like, we will leverage theuniqueness of the America's diversity.
And again, there was no E and Idiversity to combat these companies.
I translated that into like, wow, there'sgoing to be more people that look like me.
We're going to go into other markets.
They're going to be more of us thatare in our commercials because we

(47:20):
own Charmin and all those things.
So I walked out the room.
I mean, I walked out thisballroom and Mike and I were
walking back and I'm lit on fire.
And I'm like, Mike, can youbelieve what John just said?
Mike said, look, Kev,I'm not excited at all.
And gentlemen, my response was,I've been working with this
dude for the last two years.

(47:40):
He's a racist, he's discriminatory,and all those biases that I have.
But instead of letting those biases milkin, I did the one thing that I teach
in my training on biases, I asked thequestion around, why aren't you excited?
So instead of my assumption, he said,well, Kevin, let me just say this, if this

(48:01):
is diversity for the sake of diversity,is this is just putting black folks on a
commercial, bruh, I just don't, I mean,I got lots of other things I can do.
However, if you can show me how thisthing called diversity is going to
help sell more Charmin, more Tide,more White Cloud, more Pampers, more
Loves, more Folgers, I am all for it.

(48:25):
Robert, the light bulb went off for me,that my passion for it, I didn't give
a damn about coming out that meeting.
I was just like, I know what thismeans to me and it was personal for me.
To Mike, who was just, who was 80%of our organization, it was how
can we help this to, to, to helphim from a bottom line standpoint.

(48:46):
Correct.
Correct.
So for me it was every time that I built aDEI plan or strategy or any conversation I
ever had, and that's why I told you aboutwhen I went to Ogden, Utah and I didn't
finish telling you the rest of that.
It wasn't saying that, look, youhave diversity because you have, you
know, 12 of you on the room and youactually are similar and different.
We have to start where you areand where you are is the fact

(49:09):
that you have what you have.
But then secondly, what is the reason why?
And if it's a business,what is the business case?
And I'm not talking about, Oh,we're going to sell more Sharma.
I'm talking about, no, if we increaseour market share by one from 22
percent to 23%, it's going to yieldX amount of millions of dollars.
And therefore we all are going to bet.

(49:29):
So I have mapped out and I havea, I got a white paper that's
been out there a number of years.
Talked about the businessrationale, the business case,
and the business imperative.
Because that is the language thatthe top of the house speaks to.
And then it's like, okay, once youunderstand the doing business with me
as a black person or going to HBCUs,which we just found out post George

(49:51):
Floyd, they were just discovered then.
Then therefore, how do we connect withhow, where do we fit in that equation?
And that's all day long.
We can build that out.
I can build it out foryou at a hospital system.
I can build it out for you at a,at a university, at a nonprofit.
But that's when that would Mike,my counterpart said, nah, if I'm

(50:14):
just going to look around andsee more y'all, I ain't got it.
I'm not for it, but if you can tell mehow having more y'all around the table
is going to help me, I'm there for it.
And so go ahead, buddy.
No, the final point.
So therefore what are the solutions?
And I am not one to identify a problemwithout a solution at the Urban League.
I have an opportunity as the chair and myCEO, Marsha Mockaby, she and I have built

(50:38):
out what's called the Equity Instituteand the Equity Institute does two things.
One, it does exactly what I said.
The problem was we are taking chiefdiversity officers or directors of
diversity or those folks who gotthrown in these positions and taking
them through a skill building session.
Oh, it's not, not a session.
It's a whole course.
We have also convened all chief diversityofficers in Northeast Ohio, and we meet

(51:01):
on a regular basis to come together totalk about how we can support each other.
Because we know a lot of folks justgot thrown in this job the 2nd part,
which I'll just take a shameless plug.
I am the process of writing a book.
That I get to speak about in threeweeks and will be available right
after the election called the rise,the fall, and the resurrection of DEI.

(51:24):
Those words are by choice.
And I don't know if either one of you arespiritual men, but if you, if you are,
you understand what that language means.

Oh yeah.
That was well taken.
Yeah, we get it.
We get it.
We

get it.
Look, go ahead.
You got anything else you want to say?
They, they, the weaponizingof it right now.
And Robert, it breaks my heart, brother.
When I hear you say, you know what?
We just, we want to change the name.
And I understand it or that whenpeople are throwing rocks and stones
and bricks and everything at you, mypoint about the resurrection is really
redefining what the work is so that wecan get back to what it was meant to be.

(52:00):
And the resurrection, the correlationfrom a biblical standpoint, you know,
after three days, it was a whole differentkind of conversation folks was having.

That's that's the bottom line, though, buddy.
My point is,

after we kind of go through what we're about to go through
from a political standpoint, eitherway, we are going to have to do work.
If one side of the, of the, of thiscountry wins this political battle, we
will have to camouflage, redefine and,but the work is still going to be done.
The work has been been outthere for hundreds of, well,

(52:31):
at least the last 50 years.
Yeah.
Okay.
65, 65, 66, 65, 66.
Right.
However, if another side wins,it's going to be a whole rebirth.
Of what is the resurrection of the work?
And I'm banking on this side over here.
So that's what I'm doing to Tony.
And that's, that's solution for me is weneed to continue to educate ourselves.

(52:55):
We need to share with others and wealso need to make sure that we are
clear as to what we're talking about.
This is not just about black folks.

Right, right, right.
Well, look, buddy, I mean, number one,uh, when your book comes out, we're
going to have you come back on becauseI definitely, you know, you threw
the teaser out there, which I love.
Okay.
And I love the title.
Um, so definitely going to haveyou come on back on about that.
And I love the equity Institute.
Okay.
Which is, you know, it's,it's nuts and bolts, right?

(53:26):
You're putting stuff togetherthat basically has KPIs.
There's going to be, you know, it'snot pie in the sky type stuff, right?
Getting people together.
Educating one another because yourpoint earlier about people being put
in these positions and no having what?
Having no way in terms of what successlooks like right they may be very

(53:49):
well skilled They may be very talentedright, but at the end of the day if
they don't know how to put this togetherThey're not going to be successful which
Unfortunately is not going to make allof us successful So we need for them to
be successful in these roles So we candefinitely all become successful from a
diversity, equity, inclusion standpoint.

(54:09):
Final thoughts, Robert Franklin.

Thank you.
That gratitude, uh, Kev, thank youfor the work that you are doing.
Thank you for the workthat you're gonna do.
Uh, I guess I say thank you to Procterand Gamble for giving us you, uh, all that
experience because You what you're doingand what you just described is so much of
the work that's happened on this side ofthe country as well that we're a part of.

(54:35):
And so I just would saythank you to you for that.
And then Tony, thank you for makingthis space right that I found you
because I wanted to look for someinspiration in the podcast game.
And so it's because of you that Ieven do a little bit of the stuff
that I'm doing on my podcast.
So I just that's where I'mgoing to end with this is
gratitude for my final thought.

Awesome.
Kevin.

So Tony, thank you for the platform, brother.
I mean, you, you found me throughCODE M and you know, here we are on
part two and, and, and, and Robert,I can't tell you how grateful I am to
you, brother one, you heard somethingyou wanted to, to dive deeper into it.
And I'm 100 percent receiving of it andtold you we sell these, I care, which is

(55:18):
I'm like, Oh, absolutely, because I'velearned something from you and hopefully
there might have been one or two thingsthat you got you gathered from me.
But if we as black men, and I say thisvery specifically, we have black men.
can't learn or don't know how to havea conversation with each other without
yelling and screaming and cussingand fighting, then I mean, what,

(55:39):
what, what, what do we really have?
And so I thank you for thecourage that you had to say, reach
out and say, Hey, let's, let'shave some dialogue about this.
And if there's anything I can do, yougot my number, please reach out as
a, I mean, I, I was in healthcare, Iwas in bonds, the court mercy health.
More than happy brother to work with you.
And I'm not talking about charging enough.

(55:59):
I'm just saying, I want to helpyou on the, on the strength
of, of, of just another brotherneeding, needing another brother.

I appreciate that.
And yes, I will be reaching out next time.
I'm up that way, but reachback into the healthcare space.
There's some children's hospitals outthere in Ohio that needs some help
from a DEI perspective right now.
So if you can tap intothem, that'd be great.
Okay.

And I want to thank both of you guys for coming
on, having this conversation.
I really appreciate it.
We want to do more of thisbecause it's important.
And Robert, you have apodcast, you and I've chatted.
So we're going to be doingsome stuff together as well.
So.
One of the things that came out of thisconversation is definitely hearing you
guys perspective, but more importantlyto what Kevin just got finished

(56:42):
saying, is that it's about us gettingtogether, working together, right?
Listening to one another andgrowing from one another.
So I want to thank Kevin Clayton andRobert Franklin II for coming on a
Black Executive Perspective podcast.
I want you guys to stay rightthere because you're going to
help us with our call to action.
So I think it's now time for Tony's

Tidbit.

And the Tidbit today Is based on what we heard from Kevin and Robert,
and I quote, listening to differentperspectives isn't just about agreement.
It's about learning.
Evolving and finding betterways forward together.
And you heard that on this episode ofa black executive perspective podcast.

(57:25):
So please, we want to remindeverybody to make sure that
you follow our segment by Dr.
Nsenga Burton on a black executiveperspective podcast need to know,
which comes out every Thursday, Dr.
Burton dives in timely and crucial topicsthat shape our community and world.
You definitely don't want tomiss her because she brings up.
Things that you need to know.

(57:45):
You need to stay informedof on a weekly basis.
Every Thursday, check out Need to Know.
And more importantly, I hope youenjoyed today's episode DEI Under Fire.
Robert Franklin challengesKevin Clayton's views.
And so I don't know if it wasreally, I think it was more
of a love fest to be honest.

I like the title though.
That's a good title.
All right.

So, you know, but it all worked out.
Okay.
So now it's time for our call to action.
Les and Black Executive Perspective.
Our goal, our mission isobviously bringing change.
People on the talk about these topics beauthentic from a storytelling standpoint.
But more importantly, we wantedto, we wanted to decrease
all forms of discrimination.

(58:27):
So our call to actionis called less L E S S.
And this is something that we wanteveryone to incorporate because this
is something that's in your control.
So L.
The L stands for learn.
So one of the things we wantyou to do is educate yourselves
on cultural and racial nuances.
Things that you don't know, themore that you can learn, the

(58:48):
more you will be enlightened.

E, empathize, empathize to understand diverse perspectives.
Ask the question about what is your why?
Try to be more curious and figure outwhat's going on in that other person's
mind because you don't know until you ask.

Share.
Share your insights to enlighten others.
To whom much is given, much is expected.
This is the Black Executive Forum.
We have a responsibility togive back to everyone, and
particularly those behind us.

Absolutely, and then the final S stands for stopped.
You want to stop discriminationas it comes in your path.
So if grandma says something atthe Thanksgiving table that's
inappropriate, you say, grandma,we don't believe in that.
We don't say that.
And you stop it right then.
Because if everyone can incorporateless L E S S, we'll build a more

(59:42):
understanding and fair world.
And more importantly, we'll allsee the change that we want to see.
Because less will become more.
Don't forget.
You can follow a black executiveperspective wherever you get your podcast.
And more importantly, you can follow us onall our socials, Tick Tocks, X, YouTube,

(01:00:02):
Facebook, and Instagram at a black exec.
I want to thank our fabulousguests, Kevin Clayton, EVP of the
Cleveland Cavaliers, Robert Franklin.
Founder of seven focus for comingon a black executive perspective
for the woman behind the glass.
Noelle Miller who pulls thelevers to make this happen.
Guess what?
We talked about it.
We love you.

(01:00:23):
And guess what?
We're out

BEP Narrator (01:00:28):
a black executive perspective.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}In the Hot Seat: Robert Franklin Calls Out Kevin Clayton on DEI Leadership