April 19, 2024 • 20 mins
Josh Tobiessen, founder of Shared Story Consulting and a New York Times "Critics Pick" playwright, sat down with Tara Thurber to share his experience and tips for developing a persuasive story.
Together, Tara and Josh explore the importance of character development, overall objective and the details required to produce an effective story that urges readers to take action.
Top5 Elements of a Persuasive Story
- Character
- Objective
- Action
- Stakes
- Details
Speaker Bio: For two decades Josh Tobiessen been engaging audiences as a playwright and sharing the power of storytelling as workshop leader. As a playwright, his work has been seen across the country, and twice named a “Critics Pick” by the New York Times. As an instructor, he’s led classes and workshops at universities and theaters and, with Shared Story Consulting, he has taught business storytelling skills to a variety of groups including entrepreneurs developing pitches, interns hoping to build relationships at work, nonprofit boards hoping to increase engagement with their organization.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tara Thurber (00:05):
Hey everyone, welcome back to Top5 brought to
you by DefineTalent. We are aresults driven service working
with clients to connect themwith quality talent as well as
working to make an impact withinthe recruiting industry. We talk
straight about today'sprofessional world with real
world professionals, experts inrecruitment, job seekers and
(00:26):
business owners alike. Have aquestion for us. Send it in and
you might spur our nextconversation. I'm Tara Thurber,
co founder and director oftalent partnerships a
DefinedTalent. And joining metoday is Josh Tobiessen, founder
of Shared Story Consulting. Hey,Josh, how are you today?
Josh Tobiessen (00:47):
I'm great.
Thanks for having me here.
Tara Thurber (00:49):
Awesome, super glad to have you on. I'd love
for you.
Josh Tobiessen (00:52):
Good to be here.
Tara Thurber (00:53):
Thank you so much.
I'd love for you to justintroduce yourself and tell the
audience a bit about how youstarted Shared Story Consulting,
and what your mission is.
Josh Tobiessen (01:03):
Yeah, great. I have a theatre background.
That's where I started, Istarted out writing and
performing in plays when I wasliving in Galway, Ireland. And
we would be doing performancesand spaces so small, I could
actually reach out and touch theaudience. So that made
connecting with the audiencefeel very urgent, but also very
rewarding when it worked well.
So since then, I've come back tothe States, obviously, I've had
plays that I've written thathave been published and produced
(01:25):
across the country. But I'vealways been amazed by the power
of good stories to connect withan audience. And I love sharing
that power with others. So Itaught playwriting for a very
long time. But I started sharedstory consulting, as a way of
using those storytelling skillsto help people and organizations
build the relationships, theyneed to thrive, by helping them
talk about what they do in a waythat, you know, makes them care
(01:49):
that makes other people care.
Yeah, absolutely.
Tara Thurber (01:52):
Right. And makes other people listen and pay
attention too, which is soimportant. You know, and I feel
We were cominghere with your Top5 Elements of
that when I talk to so manycandidates, so many clients,
they have a tough time talkingabout themselves, they have a
tough time bringing theimportance of what they want to
(02:12):
share to the forefront. So I'msuper excited to dive in a
little bit.
a Persuasive Story. So let'stalk about those top five
elements.
Josh Tobiessen (02:27):
Sure, let's get into it. Well, okay, first,
there's character, I think thatwithout character, you don't
have a story, you just have agrocery list or whatever it is.
Tara Thurber (02:35):
Right (laughs).
Josh Tobiessen (02:35):
And so the characters can be, you know,
it's often I have peoplefocusing on themselves, I have
people focusing on theiraudience, because their
audiences another key character,but really a character in your
story could be anyone who'saffected by the work that you do
any of those stakeholders,that's very important. The
second element is objective.
Because as you were saying, withthe people that you've been
working with, if you're not ableto clearly talk about who you
(02:56):
are and what you're trying toaccomplish, people won't know
how to help you. So you're justgoing to kind of be rattling off
to no avail, right?
Tara Thurber (03:05):
Yeah (laughs).
Josh Tobiessen (03:06):
The third element is action. Because, as
they say, actions speak louderthan words. So what have you
done that proves your character?
What have you done that proveswhat you do. So obviously,
you're going to use words totell people that but telling
people what those actions are,that prove who you are, I think
he's very effective at kind ofbuilding trust with your
audience. So element number fouris stakes, because you can be
(03:26):
doing the most important workout there in the most effective
way possible. But if you can'tmake people care about what
you're doing, you're not goingto build those relationships,
you're not going to be able toget ahead. And then the fifth
element that I think isimportant that kind of covers is
over everything else, as well asthe details, it's really
important to give the audience achance to imagine themselves in
(03:48):
your story. And you do that bygiving them details that are
memorable, that allow them tocome into the story.
Tara Thurber (03:57):
I love all of these elements. And I feel,
example, working with candidatesthat are trying to write a
marketing pitch, or a summary ofwho they are, the character, the
objective, the action, thestakes, the details, all of
these are super, super importantto these individuals, for them
(04:18):
to allow themselves to tell thatstory, right? I would love it if
you could elaborate a little bitmore on the importance of solid
character development whenyou're crafting a story.
Josh Tobiessen (04:34):
Yeah, I think that that's so important. And I
think that we all have seenstories with bad character
development (laughs).
Tara Thurber (04:40):
Right (laughs).
Josh Tobiessen (04:40):
They just don't hold us you know, the stories
that we love watching whetherit's through TV, film books, or
whatever. We love that becausewe really love the characters
within that you understand them.
You know, we feel like we knowthem well. So those are so
important because the charactersare the audience's entry point
in your story essentially.
Right.
Because Story has the power, hasthe ability to motivate and
(05:03):
inspire people because itconnects with people's emotions
that connects to them on anemotional level. But if you
don't have characters that theaudience can understand, then
the audience won't be able touse their imagination and put
themselves in that story and youknow, have the effect of those
emotions. So two great thingsthat I think of when you're
thinking about characters, twogreat ways to connect, I think
(05:23):
are understanding a character'svalues and a character's
background. So that's, in otherwords, what they care about, and
essentially why they care aboutthat. If you keep these elements
in mind, you connect with peopleon an emotional level, because
you get them to understand thatif you get three stars out
there, so if you keep thoseelements in mind, people have
(05:45):
the ability, as I said, toconnect on that emotional level,
because they use theirimagination, and then they're in
the story. They're sort of apart of the story. They're
helping you write this story inthe way. So yeah, that's
essentially that's what it'sthere.
Tara Thurber (05:58):
That's awesome.
Josh Tobiessen (05:59):
It's understandable characters that
allow you to imagine yourself inthat story, and through your
imagination, through using yourimagination, you feel those
emotions, and you feel the powerof that story.
Tara Thurber (06:09):
Wow. And then speaking of that feeling on top
of it, how we speak, and what wesay is super important,
especially when telling a story,right? How do you ensure that
the dialogue is compelling,effective and gets the point
across outside of the solidcharacter development? Now we've
(06:32):
got dialogue, how can you makesure you get that point across
thoroughly?
Josh Tobiessen (06:37):
Yeah, I think when you're, when you're
writing, I think it's reallyimportant to be clear, to be
specific. Take the time to makethe story short, you know,
there's a quote like, I wouldhave written something shorter,
if I had more time (laughs).
Take that timeto you know not be boring and
Tara Thurber (06:50):
Right (laughs).
not repeat yourself. And then,as I said, the specific is
important. So being specificabout the details, the details
are going to be what peopleremember about your story. And
that's going to activate theirimagination. So that's
important. But remember, ofcourse, not to overload them
with those specific details,because then you're, falling
(07:12):
afoul of the the first rulethere. But another thing I think
is really important is thatyou're not going to write it
perfectly the first time, you'renot just going to sit down there
and write the perfect story, youhave to keep practicing, you
have to talk to people, you haveto come up with some ideas and
share them with other people,people that it's safe to share
them with, maybe not the higheststakes clients that you have
(07:34):
there (laughs).
Right (laughs).
Josh Tobiessen (07:35):
But the more you tell your story, the more you
share your story, the better youget at it, the better you are at
seeing what's working, seeingwhen people are checking their
watches, or looking off,checking their phones. And I
think that's a great way to makesure that you're gonna have an
impact by essentially trying itout through trial and error.
Tara Thurber (07:51):
Right. It's almost like it begins to evolve. Or it
can evolve over time through whoyou're speaking to who you're
sharing it with.
Josh Tobiessen (08:01):
Yeah.
Tara Thurber (08:02):
Bringing in different insight to then go
back to it and evolve it evenmore.
Josh Tobiessen (08:07):
Yeah, and ensuring that you're staying
with your theme through theentire story as well. I think
that helps you keep from goingoff on tangents. So I like to
think about, if you think aboutwhat your values are, what your
company's values are havingeverything to connect to that.
So who you are, what your valuesare inform what you want, what
your mission or objectives are.
And those inform your actions.
And your actions are allinformed by the stakes are the
(08:30):
things that you care about. Sojust making sure there's that
connection throughout all ofthose elements, I think is
important to your story. Andthen of course, you mentioned
how do you get your pointacross? Well, I think that
oftentimes, we just want to tellpeople what the point of the
story is.
Tara Thurber (08:45):
Right (laughs) Yup.
Josh Tobiessen (08:46):
This is this. I want you to do this. The point
of this story is you need tomove 10 feet over in that
direction. So do it when I thinkit's almost much more effective
to let people get there on theirown. So if you say you're
sitting on a train track, I canhear the whistle blowing,
they're gonna get up and move 10feet over. Whereas if you just
(09:07):
tell them to move out of theway, they might figure out why
they shouldn't, they might findsome resistance. But if you
allow them to kind of see thefacts, and come to that
conclusion on their own, that'smore powerful for them, because
that's gonna motivate them moreand they're gonna feel like
they're a part of that solution.
They're gonna have some buy in.
Tara Thurber (09:26):
Wow. And then I love the whole buy in aspect
too, because it's bringing theviewer the listener into the
story, and allowing them to bepart of it. And that buy in is
super important. Because I thinkwithout that buy-in you've got a
loss story.
Josh Tobiessen (09:46):
Yeah, absolutely.
Tara Thurber (09:46):
To somebody else's ears, right? Or somebody else's
eyes depending on if it'swritten or digital or verbal.
Josh Tobiessen (09:54):
I really think the goal I mean, I love
storytelling and I love stories,but I really think the goal of
storytelling is to stop tellinga story and get into a
conversation. So the more youcan bring them into that, the
more you can have them alreadybringing elements of themselves
into your story.
Tara Thurber (10:08):
Right.
Josh Tobiessen (10:08):
I think the easier it is to jump into that
conversation.
Tara Thurber (10:12):
Love that kind of hopping all the way to the
end...
Let's look atendings, you know endings can
Josh Tobiessen (10:17):
(laughs) make or break a story. How can
one ensure an impactful endingthat drives the point home,
makes the listener think or takeaction. And I feel that
everybody wants their listener,when they're done to think about
(10:37):
it further, not just close thebook or watch the story, listen
to the story and then walk away.
There's that that continuousconnection that I feel any
person would want their story toevolve and move forward with. So
(11:03):
howvdo you ensure that theendings are impactful?
Yeah I thinkthat that really leads to the
points the difference between anentertaining story and
persuasive story or a story thatyou want to tell them the
Tara Thurber (11:18):
Right.
business world.
Right.
Josh Tobiessen (11:18):
Because with an entertaining story, you have a
The end of yourstory is actually an invitation
lot of the same elements, youwant to keep all everything
related to your theme, you havea character who wants something,
and by the end of that theyeither get that or they don't.
And if you like your character,and you care about their
objective, you're going tofollow that story to see whether
they get that or not. And ifyou're watching a movie, you
want them to get that and havethat satisfying ending at the
(11:40):
end. But in a persuasive story,or a business story, it's, I
think the key is you actuallydon't really give an ending to
the story.
for your other for your audienceto join you and complete that
story with you. So thinkingabout how you can really show
the stakes, how you can show howinteresting the characters are,
(12:02):
how important the work is, butthen implying that this story
isn't going to finish until thetwo of you work together to
finish it and to have thatcompletion. So being able to
present them with an image ofwhat the conclusion might be
like if they joined, I think isimportant. And having that be
something that you know thatyour audience is going to
appreciate. So you really haveto know your audience, I think
(12:25):
to get that to work.
Tara Thurber (12:27):
Well. And that makes sense too, when I think
about a business story, youknow, you want to know your
ideal client profile. And youwant to know all of these things
prior to putting your story outthere. And then really leaving
it open ended and putting thatcall to action. So what do you
(12:48):
want that listener to do onceyou tell that story? And if that
person clicks on a button andsays I want to schedule a call
today, it's almost like there'sa win right there for the story
that's been told in the businessworld, right?
Josh Tobiessen (13:03):
Yeah, absolutely. And I think when you
think about the stories that wewatch, that we stream on
Netflix, or whatever Disney+.
Tara Thurber (13:12):
Right.
Josh Tobiessen (13:12):
They they want you to binge watch things,
right. So they're always havinga cliffhanger. And then they
don't end their episodes,because they know that they want
you to keep going, they want youto click Next episode, you know,
in the business world, you wantthem people to click Make an
appointment or something likethat.
Tara Thurber (13:28):
Yeah (laughs).
Josh Tobiessen (13:29):
So that's why you have to imply what the
ending could be, how awesome itcould be for everyone involved,
but then not take it all the waythere until you have the other
person on your team.
Tara Thurber (13:43):
Very awesome.
Josh, it's super interesting.
When I think about the businessworld and all the different
stories that really happen. It'sthe sales pitch. It's the
investor donor appeal, it's amotivational speeches that one
gives, and making an impact andhaving that call to action is
really the whole point ofsomebody putting that
(14:06):
information out there. Right.
It's drawing the audience backto you. I really love all of
these elements. I think thateach one of these elements
really plays an important rolein so many different worlds when
creating stories. It's veryinteresting to see how it kind
(14:27):
of fits into the professionalstorytelling boxes, especially
when it comes to the audienceand it comes to the work that
you're doing and the actions andthe why it's like that who,
what, when, where, why. Comingthrough your story.
Josh Tobiessen (14:46):
And it works in different ways to I mean.
Tara Thurber (14:48):
Yeah,.
Josh Tobiessen (14:49):
I do workshops for sort of team building story
skill workshops fororganizations that want their
people to understand theirmission and become aligned with
their mission. So I've doneworkshops opts for onboarding
interns who want to buildstories that will help them meet
mentors or collaborators. I'vedone workshops for nonprofit
(15:09):
board members who want to getbetter stories so that they can
re-engage people and or engagepeople more with their
organization. And then for smallorganizations, I also just help
them with their story to sharpenit into a tool that they can use
to build the relationships thatthey need to thrive. You know?
Tara Thurber (15:25):
That's so awesome, Josh, and I love that you're
doing that as workshops, you'regoing into the large and small
businesses, what would you saythe impact is, would you say
there's a bigger impact betweenyou having doing workshops with
smaller teams versus largerteams?
Josh Tobiessen (15:46):
Yeah, I think that the value of doing it with
a smaller team is that there'stwo values in the workshop. One
is that you learn story skills.
And in the workshops, I walk youthrough how to tell a story that
is going to be focused onsomething specific that that
workshop that the people in thatworkshop are going to need
stories for. But the secondaryuse of those workshops is really
(16:07):
the team building element of it.
So the more we can hear otherpeople's stories, the more you
understand why other people area part of that organization, the
more you understand theirvalues, their background, and
why they care about the workthat they're doing. And that
builds trust in that team. Soyou see that through that,
(16:28):
there's more innovation, there'smore collaboration, there's more
fun at work. And there's more,as I said, trust between the
people that are workingtogether.
Tara Thurber (16:37):
And I just on a slight tangent, I love the fact
too, that you're working withindividuals to tell that
internal story and branding. Imean, that's it, that's company
branding right there that can beso important for candidates that
are out there looking for a job.
I know so many people that willdo research on companies, and
(16:58):
they'll want to know, what's theculture like? What's, the
company "story" so to speak,right? But then you also can
flip that switch and be able toutilize the story based on the
mission and what you're puttingout there for your buyers, your
audience, you know, it's twodifferent audiences essentially.
Josh Tobiessen (17:25):
Yeah, absolutely.
Tara Thurber (17:26):
I love that you're kind of touching base on.
Josh Tobiessen (17:29):
Yeah, it's putting that message out there
into the world. But it's alsofocusing on that message
yourself. Because that can actas an internal compass for
yourself, your business, whichhelps streamline all the actions
that you take, you know, what'sworthy of your time, and effort
and what isn't, you know?
Tara Thurber (17:45):
Wonderful. So, Josh, I do have one last
question for you. It's a fun onehere. Can you share a favorite
story you've either written orread as a child that left an
impact on you throughout yourlife?
Josh Tobiessen (18:02):
I think it's interesting that the story that
comes to mind is actually a bookthat I used to read that my dad
recently gave to me for to giveto my kids. So it's a Mysterious
Tadpole, by Stephen Kellogg. AndI don't know if you know this
story, but a kid is given asmall tadpole by his uncle who
lives in Scotland, and he'strying to raise it and ends up
(18:24):
it's not a Frog. It's notturning into a frog. Now he's
growing bigger and bigger andbigger. And that, you know, it's
in the bathtub, it's eventuallysneak into a swimming pool.
And then theyhave to figure out how they're
Tara Thurber (18:33):
(laughs) going to keep it essentially
keep it to keep it from going toa zoo or something like that.
But whenever I think of that, Ijust always think we take
responsibility for these thingsin our lives, and we have no
idea what they're going to turnout, you know, it starts out
small, and then it just startsgrowing. And this kid in the
story just keeps loving thiscreature as it grows bigger and
(18:53):
bigger, and just figures out howto make it work. And never gives
up on it. So I don't know ifthat's an idea, or if it's a
business that you start orwhatever that is.
Right.
Josh Tobiessen (19:04):
I think that humans have a great capacity for
adapting and to that situationthat you know, of course, if you
had at the beginning of thestory, if someone had been to
that kid, hey, do you want thisgiant monster?
Tara Thurber (19:15):
Right! (laughs)
Josh Tobiessen (19:15):
Probably wouldn't have said "yes."
Tara Thurber (19:18):
That's awesome. I love that story. I'm gonna have
to look that book up. I feelthat that would be a good one
for my girls to my girls nightto read together. Yeah,
Josh Tobiessen (19:25):
it's it's fun.
And there's there's greatillustrations, too, which is
really fun.
Tara Thurber (19:30):
Cool. Well, listen, Josh, thank you so very
much for joining us today. Itwas really a pleasure having you
sharing your top five elementsof a persuasive story. I would
love to also get yourinformation out there to the
audience. So when we post this,we'll make sure to make sure to
share your LinkedIn profile,your website, anything else that
(19:53):
you want to send to me, we'llput out there and I'm excited to
get this out there to everybody.
Sounds great. It's been fun.
Awesome thanks Josh Have a greatday
Josh Tobiessen (20:02):
Thanks, Tara, bye.
Tara Thurber (20:04):
We are DefinedTalent a DefinedLogic
service coming to you at Top5.
Make it a great day!
Hey everyone, welcome back to Top5 brought to
you by DefineTalent. We are aresults driven service working
with clients to connect themwith quality talent as well as
working to make an impact withinthe recruiting industry. We talk
straight about today'sprofessional world with real
world professionals, experts inrecruitment, job seekers and
(00:26):
business owners alike. Have aquestion for us. Send it in and
you might spur our nextconversation. I'm Tara Thurber,
co founder and director oftalent partnerships a
DefinedTalent. And joining metoday is Josh Tobiessen, founder
of Shared Story Consulting. Hey,Josh, how are you today?
Josh Tobiessen (00:47):
I'm great.
Thanks for having me here.
Tara Thurber (00:49):
Awesome, super glad to have you on. I'd love
for you.
Josh Tobiessen (00:52):
Good to be here.
Tara Thurber (00:53):
Thank you so much.
I'd love for you to justintroduce yourself and tell the
audience a bit about how youstarted Shared Story Consulting,
and what your mission is.
Josh Tobiessen (01:03):
Yeah, great. I have a theatre background.
That's where I started, Istarted out writing and
performing in plays when I wasliving in Galway, Ireland. And
we would be doing performancesand spaces so small, I could
actually reach out and touch theaudience. So that made
connecting with the audiencefeel very urgent, but also very
rewarding when it worked well.
So since then, I've come back tothe States, obviously, I've had
plays that I've written thathave been published and produced
(01:25):
across the country. But I'vealways been amazed by the power
of good stories to connect withan audience. And I love sharing
that power with others. So Itaught playwriting for a very
long time. But I started sharedstory consulting, as a way of
using those storytelling skillsto help people and organizations
build the relationships, theyneed to thrive, by helping them
talk about what they do in a waythat, you know, makes them care
(01:49):
that makes other people care.
Yeah, absolutely.
Tara Thurber (01:52):
Right. And makes other people listen and pay
attention too, which is soimportant. You know, and I feel
We were cominghere with your Top5 Elements of
that when I talk to so manycandidates, so many clients,
they have a tough time talkingabout themselves, they have a
tough time bringing theimportance of what they want to
(02:12):
share to the forefront. So I'msuper excited to dive in a
little bit.
a Persuasive Story. So let'stalk about those top five
elements.
Josh Tobiessen (02:27):
Sure, let's get into it. Well, okay, first,
there's character, I think thatwithout character, you don't
have a story, you just have agrocery list or whatever it is.
Tara Thurber (02:35):
Right (laughs).
Josh Tobiessen (02:35):
And so the characters can be, you know,
it's often I have peoplefocusing on themselves, I have
people focusing on theiraudience, because their
audiences another key character,but really a character in your
story could be anyone who'saffected by the work that you do
any of those stakeholders,that's very important. The
second element is objective.
Because as you were saying, withthe people that you've been
working with, if you're not ableto clearly talk about who you
(02:56):
are and what you're trying toaccomplish, people won't know
how to help you. So you're justgoing to kind of be rattling off
to no avail, right?
Tara Thurber (03:05):
Yeah (laughs).
Josh Tobiessen (03:06):
The third element is action. Because, as
they say, actions speak louderthan words. So what have you
done that proves your character?
What have you done that proveswhat you do. So obviously,
you're going to use words totell people that but telling
people what those actions are,that prove who you are, I think
he's very effective at kind ofbuilding trust with your
audience. So element number fouris stakes, because you can be
(03:26):
doing the most important workout there in the most effective
way possible. But if you can'tmake people care about what
you're doing, you're not goingto build those relationships,
you're not going to be able toget ahead. And then the fifth
element that I think isimportant that kind of covers is
over everything else, as well asthe details, it's really
important to give the audience achance to imagine themselves in
(03:48):
your story. And you do that bygiving them details that are
memorable, that allow them tocome into the story.
Tara Thurber (03:57):
I love all of these elements. And I feel,
example, working with candidatesthat are trying to write a
marketing pitch, or a summary ofwho they are, the character, the
objective, the action, thestakes, the details, all of
these are super, super importantto these individuals, for them
(04:18):
to allow themselves to tell thatstory, right? I would love it if
you could elaborate a little bitmore on the importance of solid
character development whenyou're crafting a story.
Josh Tobiessen (04:34):
Yeah, I think that that's so important. And I
think that we all have seenstories with bad character
development (laughs).
Tara Thurber (04:40):
Right (laughs).
Josh Tobiessen (04:40):
They just don't hold us you know, the stories
that we love watching whetherit's through TV, film books, or
whatever. We love that becausewe really love the characters
within that you understand them.
You know, we feel like we knowthem well. So those are so
important because the charactersare the audience's entry point
in your story essentially.
Right.
Because Story has the power, hasthe ability to motivate and
(05:03):
inspire people because itconnects with people's emotions
that connects to them on anemotional level. But if you
don't have characters that theaudience can understand, then
the audience won't be able touse their imagination and put
themselves in that story and youknow, have the effect of those
emotions. So two great thingsthat I think of when you're
thinking about characters, twogreat ways to connect, I think
(05:23):
are understanding a character'svalues and a character's
background. So that's, in otherwords, what they care about, and
essentially why they care aboutthat. If you keep these elements
in mind, you connect with peopleon an emotional level, because
you get them to understand thatif you get three stars out
there, so if you keep thoseelements in mind, people have
(05:45):
the ability, as I said, toconnect on that emotional level,
because they use theirimagination, and then they're in
the story. They're sort of apart of the story. They're
helping you write this story inthe way. So yeah, that's
essentially that's what it'sthere.
Tara Thurber (05:58):
That's awesome.
Josh Tobiessen (05:59):
It's understandable characters that
allow you to imagine yourself inthat story, and through your
imagination, through using yourimagination, you feel those
emotions, and you feel the powerof that story.
Tara Thurber (06:09):
Wow. And then speaking of that feeling on top
of it, how we speak, and what wesay is super important,
especially when telling a story,right? How do you ensure that
the dialogue is compelling,effective and gets the point
across outside of the solidcharacter development? Now we've
(06:32):
got dialogue, how can you makesure you get that point across
thoroughly?
Josh Tobiessen (06:37):
Yeah, I think when you're, when you're
writing, I think it's reallyimportant to be clear, to be
specific. Take the time to makethe story short, you know,
there's a quote like, I wouldhave written something shorter,
if I had more time (laughs).
Take that timeto you know not be boring and
Tara Thurber (06:50):
Right (laughs).
not repeat yourself. And then,as I said, the specific is
important. So being specificabout the details, the details
are going to be what peopleremember about your story. And
that's going to activate theirimagination. So that's
important. But remember, ofcourse, not to overload them
with those specific details,because then you're, falling
(07:12):
afoul of the the first rulethere. But another thing I think
is really important is thatyou're not going to write it
perfectly the first time, you'renot just going to sit down there
and write the perfect story, youhave to keep practicing, you
have to talk to people, you haveto come up with some ideas and
share them with other people,people that it's safe to share
them with, maybe not the higheststakes clients that you have
(07:34):
there (laughs).
Right (laughs).
Josh Tobiessen (07:35):
But the more you tell your story, the more you
share your story, the better youget at it, the better you are at
seeing what's working, seeingwhen people are checking their
watches, or looking off,checking their phones. And I
think that's a great way to makesure that you're gonna have an
impact by essentially trying itout through trial and error.
Tara Thurber (07:51):
Right. It's almost like it begins to evolve. Or it
can evolve over time through whoyou're speaking to who you're
sharing it with.
Josh Tobiessen (08:01):
Yeah.
Tara Thurber (08:02):
Bringing in different insight to then go
back to it and evolve it evenmore.
Josh Tobiessen (08:07):
Yeah, and ensuring that you're staying
with your theme through theentire story as well. I think
that helps you keep from goingoff on tangents. So I like to
think about, if you think aboutwhat your values are, what your
company's values are havingeverything to connect to that.
So who you are, what your valuesare inform what you want, what
your mission or objectives are.
And those inform your actions.
And your actions are allinformed by the stakes are the
(08:30):
things that you care about. Sojust making sure there's that
connection throughout all ofthose elements, I think is
important to your story. Andthen of course, you mentioned
how do you get your pointacross? Well, I think that
oftentimes, we just want to tellpeople what the point of the
story is.
Tara Thurber (08:45):
Right (laughs) Yup.
Josh Tobiessen (08:46):
This is this. I want you to do this. The point
of this story is you need tomove 10 feet over in that
direction. So do it when I thinkit's almost much more effective
to let people get there on theirown. So if you say you're
sitting on a train track, I canhear the whistle blowing,
they're gonna get up and move 10feet over. Whereas if you just
(09:07):
tell them to move out of theway, they might figure out why
they shouldn't, they might findsome resistance. But if you
allow them to kind of see thefacts, and come to that
conclusion on their own, that'smore powerful for them, because
that's gonna motivate them moreand they're gonna feel like
they're a part of that solution.
They're gonna have some buy in.
Tara Thurber (09:26):
Wow. And then I love the whole buy in aspect
too, because it's bringing theviewer the listener into the
story, and allowing them to bepart of it. And that buy in is
super important. Because I thinkwithout that buy-in you've got a
loss story.
Josh Tobiessen (09:46):
Yeah, absolutely.
Tara Thurber (09:46):
To somebody else's ears, right? Or somebody else's
eyes depending on if it'swritten or digital or verbal.
Josh Tobiessen (09:54):
I really think the goal I mean, I love
storytelling and I love stories,but I really think the goal of
storytelling is to stop tellinga story and get into a
conversation. So the more youcan bring them into that, the
more you can have them alreadybringing elements of themselves
into your story.
Tara Thurber (10:08):
Right.
Josh Tobiessen (10:08):
I think the easier it is to jump into that
conversation.
Tara Thurber (10:12):
Love that kind of hopping all the way to the
end...
Let's look atendings, you know endings can
Josh Tobiessen (10:17):
(laughs) make or break a story. How can
one ensure an impactful endingthat drives the point home,
makes the listener think or takeaction. And I feel that
everybody wants their listener,when they're done to think about
(10:37):
it further, not just close thebook or watch the story, listen
to the story and then walk away.
There's that that continuousconnection that I feel any
person would want their story toevolve and move forward with. So
(11:03):
howvdo you ensure that theendings are impactful?
Yeah I thinkthat that really leads to the
points the difference between anentertaining story and
persuasive story or a story thatyou want to tell them the
Tara Thurber (11:18):
Right.
business world.
Right.
Josh Tobiessen (11:18):
Because with an entertaining story, you have a
The end of yourstory is actually an invitation
lot of the same elements, youwant to keep all everything
related to your theme, you havea character who wants something,
and by the end of that theyeither get that or they don't.
And if you like your character,and you care about their
objective, you're going tofollow that story to see whether
they get that or not. And ifyou're watching a movie, you
want them to get that and havethat satisfying ending at the
(11:40):
end. But in a persuasive story,or a business story, it's, I
think the key is you actuallydon't really give an ending to
the story.
for your other for your audienceto join you and complete that
story with you. So thinkingabout how you can really show
the stakes, how you can show howinteresting the characters are,
(12:02):
how important the work is, butthen implying that this story
isn't going to finish until thetwo of you work together to
finish it and to have thatcompletion. So being able to
present them with an image ofwhat the conclusion might be
like if they joined, I think isimportant. And having that be
something that you know thatyour audience is going to
appreciate. So you really haveto know your audience, I think
(12:25):
to get that to work.
Tara Thurber (12:27):
Well. And that makes sense too, when I think
about a business story, youknow, you want to know your
ideal client profile. And youwant to know all of these things
prior to putting your story outthere. And then really leaving
it open ended and putting thatcall to action. So what do you
(12:48):
want that listener to do onceyou tell that story? And if that
person clicks on a button andsays I want to schedule a call
today, it's almost like there'sa win right there for the story
that's been told in the businessworld, right?
Josh Tobiessen (13:03):
Yeah, absolutely. And I think when you
think about the stories that wewatch, that we stream on
Netflix, or whatever Disney+.
Tara Thurber (13:12):
Right.
Josh Tobiessen (13:12):
They they want you to binge watch things,
right. So they're always havinga cliffhanger. And then they
don't end their episodes,because they know that they want
you to keep going, they want youto click Next episode, you know,
in the business world, you wantthem people to click Make an
appointment or something likethat.
Tara Thurber (13:28):
Yeah (laughs).
Josh Tobiessen (13:29):
So that's why you have to imply what the
ending could be, how awesome itcould be for everyone involved,
but then not take it all the waythere until you have the other
person on your team.
Tara Thurber (13:43):
Very awesome.
Josh, it's super interesting.
When I think about the businessworld and all the different
stories that really happen. It'sthe sales pitch. It's the
investor donor appeal, it's amotivational speeches that one
gives, and making an impact andhaving that call to action is
really the whole point ofsomebody putting that
(14:06):
information out there. Right.
It's drawing the audience backto you. I really love all of
these elements. I think thateach one of these elements
really plays an important rolein so many different worlds when
creating stories. It's veryinteresting to see how it kind
(14:27):
of fits into the professionalstorytelling boxes, especially
when it comes to the audienceand it comes to the work that
you're doing and the actions andthe why it's like that who,
what, when, where, why. Comingthrough your story.
Josh Tobiessen (14:46):
And it works in different ways to I mean.
Tara Thurber (14:48):
Yeah,.
Josh Tobiessen (14:49):
I do workshops for sort of team building story
skill workshops fororganizations that want their
people to understand theirmission and become aligned with
their mission. So I've doneworkshops opts for onboarding
interns who want to buildstories that will help them meet
mentors or collaborators. I'vedone workshops for nonprofit
(15:09):
board members who want to getbetter stories so that they can
re-engage people and or engagepeople more with their
organization. And then for smallorganizations, I also just help
them with their story to sharpenit into a tool that they can use
to build the relationships thatthey need to thrive. You know?
Tara Thurber (15:25):
That's so awesome, Josh, and I love that you're
doing that as workshops, you'regoing into the large and small
businesses, what would you saythe impact is, would you say
there's a bigger impact betweenyou having doing workshops with
smaller teams versus largerteams?
Josh Tobiessen (15:46):
Yeah, I think that the value of doing it with
a smaller team is that there'stwo values in the workshop. One
is that you learn story skills.
And in the workshops, I walk youthrough how to tell a story that
is going to be focused onsomething specific that that
workshop that the people in thatworkshop are going to need
stories for. But the secondaryuse of those workshops is really
(16:07):
the team building element of it.
So the more we can hear otherpeople's stories, the more you
understand why other people area part of that organization, the
more you understand theirvalues, their background, and
why they care about the workthat they're doing. And that
builds trust in that team. Soyou see that through that,
(16:28):
there's more innovation, there'smore collaboration, there's more
fun at work. And there's more,as I said, trust between the
people that are workingtogether.
Tara Thurber (16:37):
And I just on a slight tangent, I love the fact
too, that you're working withindividuals to tell that
internal story and branding. Imean, that's it, that's company
branding right there that can beso important for candidates that
are out there looking for a job.
I know so many people that willdo research on companies, and
(16:58):
they'll want to know, what's theculture like? What's, the
company "story" so to speak,right? But then you also can
flip that switch and be able toutilize the story based on the
mission and what you're puttingout there for your buyers, your
audience, you know, it's twodifferent audiences essentially.
Josh Tobiessen (17:25):
Yeah, absolutely.
Tara Thurber (17:26):
I love that you're kind of touching base on.
Josh Tobiessen (17:29):
Yeah, it's putting that message out there
into the world. But it's alsofocusing on that message
yourself. Because that can actas an internal compass for
yourself, your business, whichhelps streamline all the actions
that you take, you know, what'sworthy of your time, and effort
and what isn't, you know?
Tara Thurber (17:45):
Wonderful. So, Josh, I do have one last
question for you. It's a fun onehere. Can you share a favorite
story you've either written orread as a child that left an
impact on you throughout yourlife?
Josh Tobiessen (18:02):
I think it's interesting that the story that
comes to mind is actually a bookthat I used to read that my dad
recently gave to me for to giveto my kids. So it's a Mysterious
Tadpole, by Stephen Kellogg. AndI don't know if you know this
story, but a kid is given asmall tadpole by his uncle who
lives in Scotland, and he'strying to raise it and ends up
(18:24):
it's not a Frog. It's notturning into a frog. Now he's
growing bigger and bigger andbigger. And that, you know, it's
in the bathtub, it's eventuallysneak into a swimming pool.
And then theyhave to figure out how they're
Tara Thurber (18:33):
(laughs) going to keep it essentially
keep it to keep it from going toa zoo or something like that.
But whenever I think of that, Ijust always think we take
responsibility for these thingsin our lives, and we have no
idea what they're going to turnout, you know, it starts out
small, and then it just startsgrowing. And this kid in the
story just keeps loving thiscreature as it grows bigger and
(18:53):
bigger, and just figures out howto make it work. And never gives
up on it. So I don't know ifthat's an idea, or if it's a
business that you start orwhatever that is.
Right.
Josh Tobiessen (19:04):
I think that humans have a great capacity for
adapting and to that situationthat you know, of course, if you
had at the beginning of thestory, if someone had been to
that kid, hey, do you want thisgiant monster?
Tara Thurber (19:15):
Right! (laughs)
Josh Tobiessen (19:15):
Probably wouldn't have said "yes."
Tara Thurber (19:18):
That's awesome. I love that story. I'm gonna have
to look that book up. I feelthat that would be a good one
for my girls to my girls nightto read together. Yeah,
Josh Tobiessen (19:25):
it's it's fun.
And there's there's greatillustrations, too, which is
really fun.
Tara Thurber (19:30):
Cool. Well, listen, Josh, thank you so very
much for joining us today. Itwas really a pleasure having you
sharing your top five elementsof a persuasive story. I would
love to also get yourinformation out there to the
audience. So when we post this,we'll make sure to make sure to
share your LinkedIn profile,your website, anything else that
(19:53):
you want to send to me, we'llput out there and I'm excited to
get this out there to everybody.
Sounds great. It's been fun.
Awesome thanks Josh Have a greatday
Josh Tobiessen (20:02):
Thanks, Tara, bye.
Tara Thurber (20:04):
We are DefinedTalent a DefinedLogic
service coming to you at Top5.
Make it a great day!
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