September 24, 2024 • 22 mins
Women earn 84 cents for every dollar a man earns.
Want to change this statistic? Listen to our newest podcast episode featuring a conversation between Tara Thurber and Disrupt the Gap Founder, Shell Bobev.
Together, they discuss the importance of wage equality and the challenges women face in the workforce.
Shell emphasizes the need for transparency and organizational change to address pay gaps.
Top5 Tips to Disrupt the Gap
1. Connect Stakeholders
2. Immediate & Long Term Solutions
3. Influencing WIIFM
4. Provide Clarity, Possibility & Confidence
5. Address Inner Gaps
About Shell -
Shell Bobev is the Founder of Disrupt The Gap, a platform that empowers people’s lifelong financial independence through a multi-front disruption of pay gaps. After advocating for her own equal pay in the corporate world and legal system, she realized a calling to create bold solutions for systemic change. Disrupt The Gap guides organizations with implementing equitable and future-proof compensation practices, as well as empowers individuals with self-advocacy skills. Among other degrees, Shell holds a Masters of Adult Education, and Certifications in Human Resources & DEI. With a background in talent development, she has impacted thousands of people across corporate, community, and university settings.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tara Thurber (00:00):
Hey everyone.
Welcome back to Top5 brought toyou by DefineTalent. We are a
results driven service, workingwith clients to connect them
with quality talent, as well asworking to make an impact within
the recruiting industry. We talkstraight about today's
professional world with realworld professionals, experts in
recruitment, job seekers andbusiness owners alike have a
(00:21):
question for us. Send it in, andyou might spur our next
conversation. I'm Tara Thurber,co founder and director of
talent partnerships atDefineTalent. And joining me
today is a superhuman I callShell Bobev, founder of Disrupt
the Gap. Hey, Shell. How are youtoday?
Shell Bobev (00:43):
I'm doing great.
Thanks so much for having me.
Tara Thurber (00:46):
Awesome. Super excited to have you, and please
introduce yourself. Give us abrief professional background.
Shell Bobev (00:52):
Yes, so these days you know me as the founder of
Disrupt the Gap. I'm going toget to a quick summary of that.
Very briefly. I went to schoolthe first time around for
criminal justice, and thenworked in the retail corporate
world, merchandise planning,learning the ropes there.
Ultimately, I had a desire tostep into education, and the
(01:13):
stars aligned, and I was acorporate trainer in the
corporate world. I trained 1000sof people, from entry level
folks to vice presidents, andI'm super grateful to align to
my purpose as being an educator.
Tara Thurber (01:29):
Wonderful. Now, when we're talking about Disrupt
the Gap you come from this quitea variety of a background. What
was your inspiration? And wouldyou share your story with our
audience, too?
Shell Bobev (01:47):
I will Yeah, and for folks that are hearing about
Disrupt the Gap, for the firsttime, it's a wage equality
platform with a multi frontapproach. So one front is
providing services forindividuals, helping them ask
for raises, understand theirequal pay rights, handle
compensation conversations withrecruiters. Another front of
(02:09):
disruption is working withemployers, helping them
understand the business case forequal pay, implement future
proof compensation practices,also helping them stay legally
compliant. Down the line, therewill be other phases that are
launched influencing legislationas well. So you may wonder,
(02:30):
what's the backstory? How did Iget involved with this? Well,
during my corporate career, whenI was a corporate trainer, I
experienced a pay gap, and Itried for many years to resolve
it on my own. I did all thethings that we tell folks to do,
have an amazing performance, getextra degrees, go in there,
quantify your impact. And aftermany years, when I was not able
(02:55):
to close the gap, I had thecourage and the fortitude to to
hire a lawyer and that embarkedon about a four year process
from start to finish.
Tara Thurber (03:06):
Wow!
Shell Bobev (03:07):
To get justice. And during that process, it was
quite clear to me that there wasa bigger calling, a bigger
purpose. And I don't considerany of that as happening to me.
I consider that happening forme, and I look at all the
experiences I have, you know,being a trainer, training 1000s
of people, and just giving methe skills and the perspective I
(03:27):
need to be the person that leadsnow a wage equality revolution.
Tara Thurber (03:33):
I love everything about that Shell and the fact
it's the courage too, to be ableto stand up for yourself and to
take that next step. And I feelso many individuals, they get to
that point and they can't crossthat threshold. And it's, it's
overwhelming and scary.
Shell Bobev (03:51):
It is quite scary.
I believe that there's aspiritual component as well.
When you're David and you'restanding up to Goliath.
Tara Thurber (03:58):
(laughs)
Shell Bobev (03:59):
So it's not for everyone. And I also feel a
calling that now, being on theother side of it, I need to help
influence changes, to sparefolks from going through
something like that as well.
Tara Thurber (04:12):
I love that. I love everything about that. When
we talk about statistics,there's a certain common
statistic that circulates, youknow, but they warn you that
some myths are in the mix. Whichstats should we be paying
attention to, and where do weneed more nuance?
Shell Bobev (04:30):
Yeah, amen. So I think this is quite important,
and there, there are quite a fewmyths that are circulating. So
let's just talk about the themost common stat that we're all
hearing, which is that women arebeing paid 80 cents on the
dollar for what men are beingpaid. And I'm going to break
that down. That statistic isactually looking at total annual
(04:50):
earnings comparing the twogenders, but that's across any
job so and it also is influencedby the fact that women may need
to take a break from theworkforce for child care, elder
care. It is still concerningthat, on average, women are
earning less. Why? We livelonger? We are twice as likely
(05:14):
to be poor when we're older witha smaller you know, it's
estimated it could be we'reearning about a million dollars
less over the course of ourlifetime. That's amplified for
women of color as well. And justthink about all the things that
go into the funds that we needlater in life by retirement
accounts, Social Securitybenefits. Every single output
(05:36):
that is impacted by earnings istherefore it's like a snowball
effect, right?
Tara Thurber (05:43):
Right.
Shell Bobev (05:44):
Beyond that, you know, there's a community
impact. Women are twice aslikely as men to spend money
with small businesses in theircommunity. So it is an issue way
beyond just women. Now let mealso share this. I've just
shared with you why we need morenuance with that. You know, 80
cent statistic, but are theregaps that are happening for
(06:07):
women? There are. I'm going togive you some. An example of a
study that I like to look at.
There was a very large studythat was conducted with numerous
employers, numerous jobapplicants, and they looked at
actual apples to apples twopeople doing the same job at the
same employer, and what weretheir offer? And it was in a
(06:27):
tech sector. So technology jobs.
Tara Thurber (06:31):
Okay.
Shell Bobev (06:31):
And they found that, and on average, in the New
York City area, women were beingoffered, on average, about 10%
less. Some people say, Well,women are asking for less. Okay,
I'm going to say this. So as solong as we have a negotiation
paradigm, there is always goingto be gaps. That's that study
(06:54):
also showed. Not only was itabout 10% on average for women
in the New York City area, butthe actual range was anywhere
from 4% less to 45% less, samejob, same company! Now that is,
you know, quite concerning.
Tara Thurber (07:13):
Yeah!
Shell Bobev (07:14):
I also want to say this, you know, so much of pay
gap conversations are fixated ona gender gap, I do believe that
there are occasions that that
Tara Thurber (07:21):
Right.
happens. But I also want toraise awareness that pay gaps
are happening for lots of otherreasons, well beyond gender
bias. Let me give a couple ofexamples. Imagine that you've
got someone who's doing the samejob for many years, maybe
getting 2% each year with theirincrease, and then the
(07:41):
organization hires somebody fromthe outside who's just starting
at a higher rate, or, let's sayyou've got someone with a
external job offer that they'reconsidering, and then the
employer offers them a counteroffer to keep them. So I could
go on and on, the moral of thestory is gaps happen for lots of
(08:02):
reasons.
Right.
Shell Bobev (08:03):
Gaps do happen to women as well. There's plenty of
anecdotal stories for that, andwhen we hear the very common
statistics that are out there 80cents on the dollar, we really
need to understand that that'sapples to oranges and still
concerning because of thelifetime impact of lower overall
earnings. I hope that givesfolks a little bit more nuance
(08:24):
to chew on.
Tara Thurber (08:26):
Absolutely does Shell and it's mind blowing too,
the the separation, or theamount of a gap that can happen,
but you're right. Gaps are goingto happen in a multitude of
ways, but I think what's mostimportant is for the employer to
acknowledge and assess, as muchas it is for the employee to
(08:51):
acknowledge/assess. And thenthere's communication that needs
to happen, right? And I think ina lot of places, it's that open
communication. A lot of peopledon't like to talk about
salaries, or it's hard for a lotof people to ask for a raise or
ask for more. So I think if weopen up the playing ground for
(09:15):
the communication around that,do you think that would perhaps
lessen that gap as there's moreacknowledgement and awareness
within certain businesses?
Shell Bobev (09:29):
So a couple things.
When I think about the level ofdialog and transparency that
you're describing, Icharacterize that as being one
of the few overarching paradigmshifts that are experiencing
that we're going through rightnow and work, think about the
normalization of working fromhome, the normalization of
transparency, even or a longtime, there's always been a
(09:51):
taboo of people comparing salaryamong their coworkers.
Tara Thurber (09:55):
Yeah.
Shell Bobev (09:55):
So I could go on and on there. We're just in an
era of paradigm shifts. But toanswer your question,
absolutely! The solution happensat the organization level. I
could train an army of folks togo in there and quantify the
salary and ask for it. That'sjust a band aid. Change needs to
(10:18):
happen at that higher level. Anda big part of the work I do is
helping organizations understandthe business case. I do
understand that the possibilityof raising people up salary, the
possibility of beingtransparent, I understand that
that can seem scary. I get it.
Tara Thurber (10:38):
Yeah.
Shell Bobev (10:38):
And there's a increasing compliance landscape,
which is also scary. Where I amin New Jersey, there's penalties
that are quite magnified onemployers as compared to other
states. So to answer yourquestion, absolutely change
needs to happen at theorganizational level, and we can
support those organizations withhelping them understand there is
(11:01):
a business case, there is animpact to their revenue, to
their ability to attract talent,their ability to stay compliant.
And one day from now, it's goingto just be the paradigm of
transparency and equality.
Tara Thurber (11:16):
Definitely, definitely the transparency and
equality. And it's, it's coming,I feel like it's kind of popped
up in some states, and it'slending its way out into the
rest of the states. Everybody isis feeling that movement, and
it's kind of seeping out tothose that have not yet reached
that transparency. Now I want tocome into how can each of us be
(11:41):
change makers? Pperhaps solvinga pervasive issue in ways the
world hasn't seen before.
Shell Bobev (11:48):
Yes, amen. So when I think about what it means to
be a change maker, and what ithas meant in my life to be a
change maker, I think aboutbringing forward solutions that
you didn't know you were born tocreate that maybe folks haven't
seen before.
Tara Thurber (12:03):
(laughs)
Shell Bobev (12:03):
So let me just share a couple of like, high
level sentiments for folks thatmay be thinking about bringing
forward some body of change. Ithink about identifying and
serving a diverse range ofstakeholders more than what
seems obvious like, for example,when some folks tackle pay gaps,
they might just think aboutdoing workshops about asking for
(12:25):
a raise, right?
Tara Thurber (12:26):
Right.
Shell Bobev (12:27):
But it's bigger than that. Who are all the
stakeholders and further, how dowe serve them with compassion?
Recognizing that the stuff we'retalking about is consequential,
is heavy, can be scary and notalienating any stakeholder. I
also think about as a changemaker, we have a opportunity,
(12:48):
really a mandate, to do ourinner work. What I mean by that,
confronting our fears. Maybewe're not going to bring forward
a solution because we are afraidof rejection. Maybe we've got a
limiting belief about what'spossible, or maybe perceptions
about how other people will viewus if we're doing something
(13:10):
professionally that's differentfrom what they knew us before,
what they expected of us, andhealing through any past hurts
that may have happened along theway. For me, I didn't really
understand until prettyrecently, the impact to self
image when you go through a longchapter where you're treated as
(13:33):
lesser. And so those are justsome examples of really doing
our inner work. The last thing Iwant to leave folks with is this
idea of you don't needpermission to create solutions.
Tara Thurber (13:51):
I love that sentence, Shell. Love that
sentence. Sorry to interrupt you
Shell Bobev (13:57):
I first, I first heard this last year. There was
a girl that does guerrillagardening in Pennsylvania, and
she shared that, and it justcontinues to rock my world. And
I let her know, because so manyof the institutions that we find
ourselves in, whether it's aworkplace or school or whatever
we look for guideposts,permissions from other folks,
(14:20):
and when we're doing somethingwhere there are no guideposts,
there are no blueprints, it canbe scary in lots of different
ways, and we may think that weneed some sort of permission,
blessing, go ahead. Affirmation.
It's human. It's human to wantaffirmation, right?
Tara Thurber (14:37):
Right.
Shell Bobev (14:38):
But I just offer to folks that there is a journey
when, when you realize that youare called to create something
capable of creating somethingbeyond the permissions, the
credibility that comes fromexternal to you that's so
powerful.
Tara Thurber (14:55):
It's really powerful. And being able to
follow through. And forgeforward, push forward, move that
needle beyond where you're at. Ithink is really important for
individuals to understand thatyou can move forward. You don't
again, I'm coming back to you.
You don't need permission tocreate solutions. That sentence,
right there, is so powerful forany individual to sit and think
(15:19):
with that, because I feel a lotof individuals, whether it's
women or men or just humans ingeneral, we all tend to want to
have that permission or thatblessing to say, yes, go ahead
and make an impact, but why dothey need to have that
(15:43):
permission? If you feel it inyour true core and your true
self, then keep going!
Shell Bobev (15:51):
Yes. You know, as you were talking, that something
occurred to me. I said.
Tara Thurber (15:55):
Yeah.
Shell Bobev (15:55):
Is it because we are so used to external
indicators on whether we areenough, and maybe by someone
from the outside saying, Yes,that's a good idea. Yes, you can
do that. Maybe that bestows uponus. I'm good enough. I'm capable
enough. So I think, you know,it's a powerful examination that
(16:17):
we could go on. And in themoment, it just came to me is,
this is a matter of, are weenough?
Tara Thurber (16:26):
That's something to sit and ponder, too.
Shell Bobev (16:28):
Amen,.
Tara Thurber (16:29):
Again, another important thought individuals
need to and that's, that'ssomething that you really can
answer internally, and it's justas powerful as saying it out
loud, too. So maybe just sayingit to yourself internally, but
then saying it out loud, maybethat would offer an individual
(16:54):
that permission. So it's almostgiving yourself permission, if
that's something to helpsomebody kind of break through
those barriers and those blocksthat they're having. I don't
know.
Shell Bobev (17:07):
I'll just offer to folks, if you're listening to
this, sometime in the futureyou're considering some level of
change making, please count mein your corner. Please reach out
to me. I don't care how long itis after this episode is
created, I'll be so glad tosupport you on your change
making journey.
Tara Thurber (17:25):
Me too, Shell, I just got goosebumps. So Shell,
tell me, what are your Top5 Waysto to Disrupt the Gap?
Shell Bobev (17:33):
Amen. So I knew that, I knew that this is the
top five podcast, so I createdsome notes to allow me to draw
from that. All right, so here'sfive key ways that I am
personally using to disrupt thegap in my work. So the first I
talked about this earlier, thisidea of bringing together many
stakeholders, but I want to digdeeper. I want to bring these
(17:56):
stakeholders together in waysthat's not alienating folks with
blameful language, not usingthis divide and conquer tropes.
I think, you know, pretty oftenthe gap is framed pitting women
against men, and for a bunch ofreasons, I don't care to
perpetuate that. I think in alsoconnecting the stakeholders, we
have opportunities to dismantle,dispel myths, and you know, and
(18:19):
us going through thosestatistics earlier is a great
way to dispel myth. So the firstthing is, how do we bring
together all of the stakeholdersin ways that don't alienate
blame or divide them? The secondapproach to disrupting the gap
is to think through and createboth immediate term solutions
(18:40):
and long term solutions. So inthe immediate term, the work
that we do to help jobcandidates be their own
advocate, that's the immediateterm solution, right?
A long termsolution is working through
Tara Thurber (18:50):
Right.
those organizationalopportunities, and even beyond
that, I hope one day to helpstates do their part as well,
because we need more. Perhaps weneed auditing bodies to support
the laws that are being enacted.
The third major approach todisrupting the gap is
(19:11):
influencing people with theWIIFM, the what's in it for me,
so that's why it's so criticalto our work to bring forward and
help understand the businesscase, whether that's
understanding how yourcompensation practices intersect
with your revenue, your talentrecruitment, your retention
rates, or the compliancedisasters that you can avoid,
(19:33):
all of that is major WIIFM. Myfourth approach is that there
needs to be a very clear levelof empowerment, giving people
clarity, possibility,confidence. How do I do that?
One is the creation of impactfultools. It could be assessment
tools. So for example, foremployer clients, have a tool
(19:56):
called Grade Your Pay. A andhelps them understand through
several key lenses, what aretheir risks, what are their
opportunities? Beyond toolscreating insights so disrupt the
gap, creates proprietaryinsights from one stakeholder
group and shares that withanother stakeholder group. So
for example, the work that wedo, serving job candidates,
(20:20):
collecting insights on theirattitudes about pay
transparency, their attitudesabout employers that have gaps,
and how that intersects with animpression of DEI commitment or
not.
Right.
Shell Bobev (20:35):
And using that to share that with the employer
stakeholders. So the lastopportunity to disrupt the gap,
for me has been to help folkswith the related inner gaps. So
let's go way beyond the pay gaptopic, because there are inner
gaps that are happening forfolks that are related. Shame.
(20:58):
If someone was not able tosecure a salary. Maybe they
didn't do the negotiationperfectly. It's very possible
that they're internalizing shamearound that. For our employer
folks maybe having some fears ofwhat's going to happen when the
rug is lifted up.
Tara Thurber (21:14):
Yup.
Shell Bobev (21:14):
So how do we help folks address those inner gaps
and bring healing? So those aremy top five ways that I'm
personally applying when IDisrupt the Gap.
Tara Thurber (21:24):
These top five ways are fantastic, Shell. I
think each and every one ofthese addresses and brings light
to the table for our audiencelistening right now, I'm so
excited that we had you on todayto talk about your top five ways
and what Disrupt the Gap meansright now. Because I think even
(21:44):
going back up to when we firststarted our conversation around
the statistics, I think there'sa lot going on out out in the
world right now, and thestatistics you know, aren't
necessarily everything to behoning in on, because maybe
there is some underlyingacknowledgements or some
(22:09):
underlying things that we needto look at. And I think you're
right when it comes down tobeing able to identify, being
able to bring everybodytogether, and coming back to
your sense of self, bringingthat healing from the inside
out, both on the employee sideand the employer side. So I just
(22:31):
want to say thank you. Thank youfor sharing your story today.
Thank you so much for sharingyour top five ways to Disrupt
the Gap. Thank you.
Shell Bobev (22:41):
Thank you so much for having me, and thanks for
everyone who tuned in.
Tara Thurber (22:45):
We are DefinedTalent, a DefinedLogic
service coming to you at topfive. Make it a great day.
Hey everyone.
Welcome back to Top5 brought toyou by DefineTalent. We are a
results driven service, workingwith clients to connect them
with quality talent, as well asworking to make an impact within
the recruiting industry. We talkstraight about today's
professional world with realworld professionals, experts in
recruitment, job seekers andbusiness owners alike have a
(00:21):
question for us. Send it in, andyou might spur our next
conversation. I'm Tara Thurber,co founder and director of
talent partnerships atDefineTalent. And joining me
today is a superhuman I callShell Bobev, founder of Disrupt
the Gap. Hey, Shell. How are youtoday?
Shell Bobev (00:43):
I'm doing great.
Thanks so much for having me.
Tara Thurber (00:46):
Awesome. Super excited to have you, and please
introduce yourself. Give us abrief professional background.
Shell Bobev (00:52):
Yes, so these days you know me as the founder of
Disrupt the Gap. I'm going toget to a quick summary of that.
Very briefly. I went to schoolthe first time around for
criminal justice, and thenworked in the retail corporate
world, merchandise planning,learning the ropes there.
Ultimately, I had a desire tostep into education, and the
(01:13):
stars aligned, and I was acorporate trainer in the
corporate world. I trained 1000sof people, from entry level
folks to vice presidents, andI'm super grateful to align to
my purpose as being an educator.
Tara Thurber (01:29):
Wonderful. Now, when we're talking about Disrupt
the Gap you come from this quitea variety of a background. What
was your inspiration? And wouldyou share your story with our
audience, too?
Shell Bobev (01:47):
I will Yeah, and for folks that are hearing about
Disrupt the Gap, for the firsttime, it's a wage equality
platform with a multi frontapproach. So one front is
providing services forindividuals, helping them ask
for raises, understand theirequal pay rights, handle
compensation conversations withrecruiters. Another front of
(02:09):
disruption is working withemployers, helping them
understand the business case forequal pay, implement future
proof compensation practices,also helping them stay legally
compliant. Down the line, therewill be other phases that are
launched influencing legislationas well. So you may wonder,
(02:30):
what's the backstory? How did Iget involved with this? Well,
during my corporate career, whenI was a corporate trainer, I
experienced a pay gap, and Itried for many years to resolve
it on my own. I did all thethings that we tell folks to do,
have an amazing performance, getextra degrees, go in there,
quantify your impact. And aftermany years, when I was not able
(02:55):
to close the gap, I had thecourage and the fortitude to to
hire a lawyer and that embarkedon about a four year process
from start to finish.
Tara Thurber (03:06):
Wow!
Shell Bobev (03:07):
To get justice. And during that process, it was
quite clear to me that there wasa bigger calling, a bigger
purpose. And I don't considerany of that as happening to me.
I consider that happening forme, and I look at all the
experiences I have, you know,being a trainer, training 1000s
of people, and just giving methe skills and the perspective I
(03:27):
need to be the person that leadsnow a wage equality revolution.
Tara Thurber (03:33):
I love everything about that Shell and the fact
it's the courage too, to be ableto stand up for yourself and to
take that next step. And I feelso many individuals, they get to
that point and they can't crossthat threshold. And it's, it's
overwhelming and scary.
Shell Bobev (03:51):
It is quite scary.
I believe that there's aspiritual component as well.
When you're David and you'restanding up to Goliath.
Tara Thurber (03:58):
(laughs)
Shell Bobev (03:59):
So it's not for everyone. And I also feel a
calling that now, being on theother side of it, I need to help
influence changes, to sparefolks from going through
something like that as well.
Tara Thurber (04:12):
I love that. I love everything about that. When
we talk about statistics,there's a certain common
statistic that circulates, youknow, but they warn you that
some myths are in the mix. Whichstats should we be paying
attention to, and where do weneed more nuance?
Shell Bobev (04:30):
Yeah, amen. So I think this is quite important,
and there, there are quite a fewmyths that are circulating. So
let's just talk about the themost common stat that we're all
hearing, which is that women arebeing paid 80 cents on the
dollar for what men are beingpaid. And I'm going to break
that down. That statistic isactually looking at total annual
(04:50):
earnings comparing the twogenders, but that's across any
job so and it also is influencedby the fact that women may need
to take a break from theworkforce for child care, elder
care. It is still concerningthat, on average, women are
earning less. Why? We livelonger? We are twice as likely
(05:14):
to be poor when we're older witha smaller you know, it's
estimated it could be we'reearning about a million dollars
less over the course of ourlifetime. That's amplified for
women of color as well. And justthink about all the things that
go into the funds that we needlater in life by retirement
accounts, Social Securitybenefits. Every single output
(05:36):
that is impacted by earnings istherefore it's like a snowball
effect, right?
Tara Thurber (05:43):
Right.
Shell Bobev (05:44):
Beyond that, you know, there's a community
impact. Women are twice aslikely as men to spend money
with small businesses in theircommunity. So it is an issue way
beyond just women. Now let mealso share this. I've just
shared with you why we need morenuance with that. You know, 80
cent statistic, but are theregaps that are happening for
(06:07):
women? There are. I'm going togive you some. An example of a
study that I like to look at.
There was a very large studythat was conducted with numerous
employers, numerous jobapplicants, and they looked at
actual apples to apples twopeople doing the same job at the
same employer, and what weretheir offer? And it was in a
(06:27):
tech sector. So technology jobs.
Tara Thurber (06:31):
Okay.
Shell Bobev (06:31):
And they found that, and on average, in the New
York City area, women were beingoffered, on average, about 10%
less. Some people say, Well,women are asking for less. Okay,
I'm going to say this. So as solong as we have a negotiation
paradigm, there is always goingto be gaps. That's that study
(06:54):
also showed. Not only was itabout 10% on average for women
in the New York City area, butthe actual range was anywhere
from 4% less to 45% less, samejob, same company! Now that is,
you know, quite concerning.
Tara Thurber (07:13):
Yeah!
Shell Bobev (07:14):
I also want to say this, you know, so much of pay
gap conversations are fixated ona gender gap, I do believe that
there are occasions that that
Tara Thurber (07:21):
Right.
happens. But I also want toraise awareness that pay gaps
are happening for lots of otherreasons, well beyond gender
bias. Let me give a couple ofexamples. Imagine that you've
got someone who's doing the samejob for many years, maybe
getting 2% each year with theirincrease, and then the
(07:41):
organization hires somebody fromthe outside who's just starting
at a higher rate, or, let's sayyou've got someone with a
external job offer that they'reconsidering, and then the
employer offers them a counteroffer to keep them. So I could
go on and on, the moral of thestory is gaps happen for lots of
(08:02):
reasons.
Right.
Shell Bobev (08:03):
Gaps do happen to women as well. There's plenty of
anecdotal stories for that, andwhen we hear the very common
statistics that are out there 80cents on the dollar, we really
need to understand that that'sapples to oranges and still
concerning because of thelifetime impact of lower overall
earnings. I hope that givesfolks a little bit more nuance
(08:24):
to chew on.
Tara Thurber (08:26):
Absolutely does Shell and it's mind blowing too,
the the separation, or theamount of a gap that can happen,
but you're right. Gaps are goingto happen in a multitude of
ways, but I think what's mostimportant is for the employer to
acknowledge and assess, as muchas it is for the employee to
(08:51):
acknowledge/assess. And thenthere's communication that needs
to happen, right? And I think ina lot of places, it's that open
communication. A lot of peopledon't like to talk about
salaries, or it's hard for a lotof people to ask for a raise or
ask for more. So I think if weopen up the playing ground for
(09:15):
the communication around that,do you think that would perhaps
lessen that gap as there's moreacknowledgement and awareness
within certain businesses?
Shell Bobev (09:29):
So a couple things.
When I think about the level ofdialog and transparency that
you're describing, Icharacterize that as being one
of the few overarching paradigmshifts that are experiencing
that we're going through rightnow and work, think about the
normalization of working fromhome, the normalization of
transparency, even or a longtime, there's always been a
(09:51):
taboo of people comparing salaryamong their coworkers.
Tara Thurber (09:55):
Yeah.
Shell Bobev (09:55):
So I could go on and on there. We're just in an
era of paradigm shifts. But toanswer your question,
absolutely! The solution happensat the organization level. I
could train an army of folks togo in there and quantify the
salary and ask for it. That'sjust a band aid. Change needs to
(10:18):
happen at that higher level. Anda big part of the work I do is
helping organizations understandthe business case. I do
understand that the possibilityof raising people up salary, the
possibility of beingtransparent, I understand that
that can seem scary. I get it.
Tara Thurber (10:38):
Yeah.
Shell Bobev (10:38):
And there's a increasing compliance landscape,
which is also scary. Where I amin New Jersey, there's penalties
that are quite magnified onemployers as compared to other
states. So to answer yourquestion, absolutely change
needs to happen at theorganizational level, and we can
support those organizations withhelping them understand there is
(11:01):
a business case, there is animpact to their revenue, to
their ability to attract talent,their ability to stay compliant.
And one day from now, it's goingto just be the paradigm of
transparency and equality.
Tara Thurber (11:16):
Definitely, definitely the transparency and
equality. And it's, it's coming,I feel like it's kind of popped
up in some states, and it'slending its way out into the
rest of the states. Everybody isis feeling that movement, and
it's kind of seeping out tothose that have not yet reached
that transparency. Now I want tocome into how can each of us be
(11:41):
change makers? Pperhaps solvinga pervasive issue in ways the
world hasn't seen before.
Shell Bobev (11:48):
Yes, amen. So when I think about what it means to
be a change maker, and what ithas meant in my life to be a
change maker, I think aboutbringing forward solutions that
you didn't know you were born tocreate that maybe folks haven't
seen before.
Tara Thurber (12:03):
(laughs)
Shell Bobev (12:03):
So let me just share a couple of like, high
level sentiments for folks thatmay be thinking about bringing
forward some body of change. Ithink about identifying and
serving a diverse range ofstakeholders more than what
seems obvious like, for example,when some folks tackle pay gaps,
they might just think aboutdoing workshops about asking for
(12:25):
a raise, right?
Tara Thurber (12:26):
Right.
Shell Bobev (12:27):
But it's bigger than that. Who are all the
stakeholders and further, how dowe serve them with compassion?
Recognizing that the stuff we'retalking about is consequential,
is heavy, can be scary and notalienating any stakeholder. I
also think about as a changemaker, we have a opportunity,
(12:48):
really a mandate, to do ourinner work. What I mean by that,
confronting our fears. Maybewe're not going to bring forward
a solution because we are afraidof rejection. Maybe we've got a
limiting belief about what'spossible, or maybe perceptions
about how other people will viewus if we're doing something
(13:10):
professionally that's differentfrom what they knew us before,
what they expected of us, andhealing through any past hurts
that may have happened along theway. For me, I didn't really
understand until prettyrecently, the impact to self
image when you go through a longchapter where you're treated as
(13:33):
lesser. And so those are justsome examples of really doing
our inner work. The last thing Iwant to leave folks with is this
idea of you don't needpermission to create solutions.
Tara Thurber (13:51):
I love that sentence, Shell. Love that
sentence. Sorry to interrupt you
Shell Bobev (13:57):
I first, I first heard this last year. There was
a girl that does guerrillagardening in Pennsylvania, and
she shared that, and it justcontinues to rock my world. And
I let her know, because so manyof the institutions that we find
ourselves in, whether it's aworkplace or school or whatever
we look for guideposts,permissions from other folks,
(14:20):
and when we're doing somethingwhere there are no guideposts,
there are no blueprints, it canbe scary in lots of different
ways, and we may think that weneed some sort of permission,
blessing, go ahead. Affirmation.
It's human. It's human to wantaffirmation, right?
Tara Thurber (14:37):
Right.
Shell Bobev (14:38):
But I just offer to folks that there is a journey
when, when you realize that youare called to create something
capable of creating somethingbeyond the permissions, the
credibility that comes fromexternal to you that's so
powerful.
Tara Thurber (14:55):
It's really powerful. And being able to
follow through. And forgeforward, push forward, move that
needle beyond where you're at. Ithink is really important for
individuals to understand thatyou can move forward. You don't
again, I'm coming back to you.
You don't need permission tocreate solutions. That sentence,
right there, is so powerful forany individual to sit and think
(15:19):
with that, because I feel a lotof individuals, whether it's
women or men or just humans ingeneral, we all tend to want to
have that permission or thatblessing to say, yes, go ahead
and make an impact, but why dothey need to have that
(15:43):
permission? If you feel it inyour true core and your true
self, then keep going!
Shell Bobev (15:51):
Yes. You know, as you were talking, that something
occurred to me. I said.
Tara Thurber (15:55):
Yeah.
Shell Bobev (15:55):
Is it because we are so used to external
indicators on whether we areenough, and maybe by someone
from the outside saying, Yes,that's a good idea. Yes, you can
do that. Maybe that bestows uponus. I'm good enough. I'm capable
enough. So I think, you know,it's a powerful examination that
(16:17):
we could go on. And in themoment, it just came to me is,
this is a matter of, are weenough?
Tara Thurber (16:26):
That's something to sit and ponder, too.
Shell Bobev (16:28):
Amen,.
Tara Thurber (16:29):
Again, another important thought individuals
need to and that's, that'ssomething that you really can
answer internally, and it's justas powerful as saying it out
loud, too. So maybe just sayingit to yourself internally, but
then saying it out loud, maybethat would offer an individual
(16:54):
that permission. So it's almostgiving yourself permission, if
that's something to helpsomebody kind of break through
those barriers and those blocksthat they're having. I don't
know.
Shell Bobev (17:07):
I'll just offer to folks, if you're listening to
this, sometime in the futureyou're considering some level of
change making, please count mein your corner. Please reach out
to me. I don't care how long itis after this episode is
created, I'll be so glad tosupport you on your change
making journey.
Tara Thurber (17:25):
Me too, Shell, I just got goosebumps. So Shell,
tell me, what are your Top5 Waysto to Disrupt the Gap?
Shell Bobev (17:33):
Amen. So I knew that, I knew that this is the
top five podcast, so I createdsome notes to allow me to draw
from that. All right, so here'sfive key ways that I am
personally using to disrupt thegap in my work. So the first I
talked about this earlier, thisidea of bringing together many
stakeholders, but I want to digdeeper. I want to bring these
(17:56):
stakeholders together in waysthat's not alienating folks with
blameful language, not usingthis divide and conquer tropes.
I think, you know, pretty oftenthe gap is framed pitting women
against men, and for a bunch ofreasons, I don't care to
perpetuate that. I think in alsoconnecting the stakeholders, we
have opportunities to dismantle,dispel myths, and you know, and
(18:19):
us going through thosestatistics earlier is a great
way to dispel myth. So the firstthing is, how do we bring
together all of the stakeholdersin ways that don't alienate
blame or divide them? The secondapproach to disrupting the gap
is to think through and createboth immediate term solutions
(18:40):
and long term solutions. So inthe immediate term, the work
that we do to help jobcandidates be their own
advocate, that's the immediateterm solution, right?
A long termsolution is working through
Tara Thurber (18:50):
Right.
those organizationalopportunities, and even beyond
that, I hope one day to helpstates do their part as well,
because we need more. Perhaps weneed auditing bodies to support
the laws that are being enacted.
The third major approach todisrupting the gap is
(19:11):
influencing people with theWIIFM, the what's in it for me,
so that's why it's so criticalto our work to bring forward and
help understand the businesscase, whether that's
understanding how yourcompensation practices intersect
with your revenue, your talentrecruitment, your retention
rates, or the compliancedisasters that you can avoid,
(19:33):
all of that is major WIIFM. Myfourth approach is that there
needs to be a very clear levelof empowerment, giving people
clarity, possibility,confidence. How do I do that?
One is the creation of impactfultools. It could be assessment
tools. So for example, foremployer clients, have a tool
(19:56):
called Grade Your Pay. A andhelps them understand through
several key lenses, what aretheir risks, what are their
opportunities? Beyond toolscreating insights so disrupt the
gap, creates proprietaryinsights from one stakeholder
group and shares that withanother stakeholder group. So
for example, the work that wedo, serving job candidates,
(20:20):
collecting insights on theirattitudes about pay
transparency, their attitudesabout employers that have gaps,
and how that intersects with animpression of DEI commitment or
not.
Right.
Shell Bobev (20:35):
And using that to share that with the employer
stakeholders. So the lastopportunity to disrupt the gap,
for me has been to help folkswith the related inner gaps. So
let's go way beyond the pay gaptopic, because there are inner
gaps that are happening forfolks that are related. Shame.
(20:58):
If someone was not able tosecure a salary. Maybe they
didn't do the negotiationperfectly. It's very possible
that they're internalizing shamearound that. For our employer
folks maybe having some fears ofwhat's going to happen when the
rug is lifted up.
Tara Thurber (21:14):
Yup.
Shell Bobev (21:14):
So how do we help folks address those inner gaps
and bring healing? So those aremy top five ways that I'm
personally applying when IDisrupt the Gap.
Tara Thurber (21:24):
These top five ways are fantastic, Shell. I
think each and every one ofthese addresses and brings light
to the table for our audiencelistening right now, I'm so
excited that we had you on todayto talk about your top five ways
and what Disrupt the Gap meansright now. Because I think even
(21:44):
going back up to when we firststarted our conversation around
the statistics, I think there'sa lot going on out out in the
world right now, and thestatistics you know, aren't
necessarily everything to behoning in on, because maybe
there is some underlyingacknowledgements or some
(22:09):
underlying things that we needto look at. And I think you're
right when it comes down tobeing able to identify, being
able to bring everybodytogether, and coming back to
your sense of self, bringingthat healing from the inside
out, both on the employee sideand the employer side. So I just
(22:31):
want to say thank you. Thank youfor sharing your story today.
Thank you so much for sharingyour top five ways to Disrupt
the Gap. Thank you.
Shell Bobev (22:41):
Thank you so much for having me, and thanks for
everyone who tuned in.
Tara Thurber (22:45):
We are DefinedTalent, a DefinedLogic
service coming to you at topfive. Make it a great day.
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