November 18, 2022 • 44 mins
In this episode, Topcon's Dan Hendricks meets with family consultant and author, Jolene Brown, to discuss the complex and difficult conversations of farm transition, and the important steps needed to ensure the farm business and family might continue.
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Speaker 1 (00:12):
Welcome, welcome, welcome to the Top Con Talks
Agriculture podcast.
We have a big episode for youtoday and I'm thrilled that you
have taken the time to listenand, uh, I know that you won't
be disappointed.
My name is Dan Hendricks and Iam your host for today.
I serve as a senior businessdevelopment manager for Topcon
(00:35):
Agriculture.
I get to work with an amazingteam of talented individuals who
love agriculture.
They enjoy technology, and theystrive to help farmers and
growers find solutions.
I'm excited for today's podcastfor a lot of reasons.
It's a very applicable topic formany farm families and we have
(00:56):
an incredible guest to share herinsight with us today.
In today's episode, we aretalking about the importance of
farm succession.
And let me say this, farmsuccession is tricky.
It's difficult, uh, maybe evenstressful, but it's very, very
important to farms and farmfamilies.
(01:19):
And we are very fortunate todayto have a very special guest who
I'm very excited about.
Someone that many of you in theagriculture community may
already be familiar with.
Her name is Jolene Brown, andJolene is a spokesperson and a
champion for people inagriculture.
She's a farmer in eastern Iowa,contributor to successful
(01:44):
Farming magazine, an author oftwo books, one entitled, holy
Crap, I Married a Farmer, whichis a great, great title.
And the second is sometimes youneed More than a two by four.
So, hello Jolene and welcome tothe Topcon Podcast,
Speaker 2 (02:02):
The greetings to you and to those who are listening,
I couldn't wait to be part ofyour programming.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
Oh, well we're excited to have you.
So excited.
And for our listeners, Jolene,tell us a little bit about
yourself.
What inspired you to become afamily consultant to farmers?
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Well, I've been professionally speaking since
the eighties.
And at that time our interestrates got into 20% and we lost
63% of our net worth.
So the haunting words that camedown our country roads were
bankruptcy, foreclosure,suicide, and even murder.
So, you know, it's an eyeopener.
(02:39):
We were living through that timeas well on our farm.
And what I knew I had to do wasto help people build an internal
net worth when their externalone is gone.
So that put me in a lot ofmedia, so many venues to speak,
and that just continued.
But as I would attend all ofthese agriculture meetings as
their speaker mm-hmm.
, just about everyother program was about
(03:00):
production.
I mean, we are superior atproduction.
We can go just about anywhereand learn about weeds or seeds
or breeds or feeds or even moneymachinery marketing.
But we're crappy with people.
It's the people that do all theproduction.
It was also the people that wasthe roadblock that we're keeping
others up at night.
And so I decided that I neededto focus on the human side of
(03:23):
agriculture.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
Oh, well that's fantastic.
And, and Ed and I agree withwhat you're saying, um, as, as
amazing as farmers are, youknow, today we're talking about
something that's near and dearto them with farm succession.
And um, I do agree that that isa very tricky thing.
Farmers are good at lots ofthings, but sometimes this, this
(03:45):
whole topic of planning, it'svery complicated.
It's difficult, it's tricky.
And uh, but I think as you willattest, as we hear more from
you, it's very, very needed forour farm families.
So let's jump into today's topicby discussing family farms, the
business and the lifestyle.
(04:06):
The family farm links the pastand the present and the future.
So you have children that areworking for the parents.
Sometimes you have parents thatare working for their children.
And since the farm is theoutcome of their work and
dedication, they have a sense ofenormous pride in in their farm,
which, which they should, all ofwhich is a very good thing.
(04:27):
But it's complicated and itcomes with some potential
pitfalls.
And the plan for succession andhanding down the farm assets to
fatally members can be ratherdifficult.
Um, so with all these familydynamics and equipment and land
resources to consider and thefinancial position to consider
(04:51):
the best way to transfer afamily farm varies from farm to
farm, I think we would all agreewith that.
And there is a myriad ofdecisions that have to be made.
So, Jolene, let me start withthe question.
Is there a right time for familyfarmers to begin discussing
their transition plan?
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Well, you know, I get all types of questions and phone
calls and interactions and I hadan 80 year old man say to me,
you know, Jolene, someday Iought to be turning something
over to my boy.
His boy was 60
Speaker 1 (05:28):
.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
So, so is there a right time?
You betcha.
And one of the things you saidin your comment is we have in
your opening is that we havemany, um, adult children working
for parents mm-hmm.
.
But we forgot to then say, butit's grandma and grandpa who
still may own everything.
So we have to understand thetransition can be multiple
generations.
And this does not have to be adreaded process.
(05:49):
If you understand that there aretools that you can put in place
that will help you transitionthree things.
Cuz we have to transition threethings here, Dan.
We have to transition theintelligence.
In other words, they have toknow about the business.
They have to bring something tothe business from their
education.
The second thing we have totransition is the experience.
(06:10):
So this does not happenovernight.
Experiences where you begin toearn another generation's trust
and respect, a willingness tochange and learn.
Mm-hmm.
.
But the third thing is what wealways think about.
And that is we have totransition the hard assets, the
land, the equipment, thecritters, the crops, those kinds
of things.
But it is the first two thatcause so, so many, uh, points
(06:33):
and roadblocks that keep us fromdoing the last one.
We also will go to professionaladvisors for the last one.
We'll go to attorneys andaccountants and we very much
need them.
Um, but again, unless you havethe first two in place, we have
a problem because the challengewith transitioning a business,
it's first deciding is there abusiness worth transitioning?
Speaker 1 (06:55):
Yeah, that's very good.
Yes.
And, and you said the word dreadin there that sometimes, uh,
growers dread that.
Talk a little bit more aboutthat, unpack that.
Why do you think that is?
Why do growers or, or maybegrandma or grandpa, why are they
dreading this whole process?
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Well, there's always emotion involved.
And when emotion and logiccollide, emotions going to win.
Mm-hmm.
in's to thatemotion might be control.
Um, lack of fear of not beingneeded or worthwhile or
appreciated.
Um, fear of individual needs,will they be met?
Is this transition takes placeand in the future.
(07:32):
So fear always has to beaddressed.
And what I find some of theemotions are very, uh, dominant.
There can be anger or resentmentor jealousy or fear.
There's always tears.
And so, right.
Um, I have learned, I have gotto deal with the emotions so we
can get to the logic, but ittakes a lot of one to one time
(07:53):
and building trust.
Uh, and I should say credibilityas a, as a consultant here, so
that I can figure out what'sgoing on behind the scenes.
Mm-hmm.
and I often spend40 hours or more one to ones
with family members.
Right.
Uh, either by zoom or by phone,by who I would even come and
work with them.
Cause I have to make sure mywork can be of value, first of
(08:14):
all.
And they have to be ready forme.
Cuz Dan, I'm not yourtraditional consultant.
I don't mediate.
I dictate.
I see.
I've been at this long enoughand, and when you've learned
lessons over 34 years of whatworks and what doesn't, and I
don't let people get by with toomuch.
And so they know that most ofthe people who invite me to
their kitchen table have heardme speak.
(08:34):
So they're well aware of whatthey're going to be in, in store
for.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
Yes.
Well, it, it's great that you,you know, help them with that.
And probably being an impartialthird party really helps you get
to the, the core of thedecisions that, uh, need to be
made and maybe remove theemotion from that.
Uh, before we go too deepthough, into this transition,
you had mentioned this earlierabout the business being
(08:59):
profitable, but why is thatimportant to assess whether the
farm is actually profitable ornot?
Speaker 2 (09:06):
Well, I always have to start with the existing
owners, which is quite often thesenior generation.
Mm-hmm.
, and I must tomake sure that they are
financially secure.
I, I remind them that their kidsdon't have to start where they
are at today because you didn't.
Right.
But neither can they start whereyou started.
Mm-hmm.
and the seniorgeneration must be financially
(09:26):
secure or they will neverrelinquish control.
So I have to say to them, if youhave put in years of blood and
sweat and tears into thebusiness and you don't have that
house you want to have, bygolly, you deserve it.
And maybe it ought be handicapaccessible.
.
And I say to the seniorgeneration, if you've not taken
that holiday you want, by gollyyou deserve it.
(09:47):
And I always have to ask, ifyou've not provided and taken
care of your long-termhealthcare needs, you might
bring down the business that youwant to continue.
And so it is extremely importantthat they're using an advisor.
It's called a certifiedfinancial planner.
Mm-hmm.
.
And this is somebody who sitsdown, uh, individually, not as a
(10:07):
work team, but usually beginningwith the senior generation to
find out what they own and whatthey owe, what do they need to
live on, uh, do they have theirlegal documents in place with
beneficiaries and wills, allthose kinds of things.
But most importantly, they'regonna help them figure out what
is it that they need to live.
And until we make sure they'resecure, they won't relinquish
(10:30):
because the next generationdings with their security.
Oh, they wanna buy more land,but what about me?
Oh, you wanna buy more, uh,machinery, but what about me?
And so I have got to make surethey're financially secure
first.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
I see.
And, and I talk to a lot offriends, coworkers, people that
I know, um, you know, that arein farming, that, that are more
my age.
And so they have parents or, orgrandparents, um, that are in
that senior generation.
And sometimes the, the they,they see the letting go is tough
(11:02):
for that senior generation.
What would you say to someonewho is not the senior generation
but is more, you know, in themiddle, maybe the middle age, uh
, about how to help thatgeneration or maybe to be
patient with them through thisprocess or not get so frustrated
about that, that letting go,that's difficult.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Well, you really have to look into the mirror at your
behaviors.
mm-hmm.
, if we don't havekindness and courtesy and
respect and we don't just meettheir expectations, we exceed
their expectations.
If we don't honor the journey,the journey where they rode to
school uphill both ways on apony for four miles,
Speaker 1 (11:43):
, right?
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Yeah.
Then, then they're never gonnatransition be it I want, I want
them so financially secure sothat the next generation can
take the risk on what they canafford to lose or grow.
But the senior generation isokay, so they're what, you know,
they have been your role modelfor a long time.
Be it good or be it bad.
They, and they're often theowners of the assets.
(12:05):
So a lot of it comes withappreciation and respect.
But I want you to know it.
It's not always easy.
Here's an example.
When my father-in-law was 90, hewas still driving.
Now, he didn't say he should be,but he was
Speaker 1 (12:17):
.
Okay.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
Yeah.
So he was an assisted living,but he would only drive from
there to the farmstead.
He comes into the driveway,always honking on the horn
because he's not gonna get outof the car, but we all come
running.
Okay.
So I'm the first one there.
Hey dad, how are you doingtoday?
Oh, pretty good.
Pretty good.
What's my hu He's, what's Keith?
That's my husband.
What's Keith up to today?
Is he out planting corn?
Oh no, dad, we had three inchesof rain last night.
(12:40):
It's too wet.
Well, you better tell him itain't gonna grow in the bag.
Well, I'll do that, dad, I'll dothat.
I'm just not gonna tell himtoday.
I'm gonna wait till all the cropis in and then we'll both have a
good laugh,.
So a lot of it is, is respectingand writing the rollercoaster.
Uh, but it's, it's really hardto get started in agriculture
unless there's somebody willingto incrementally give you an
(13:02):
opportunity.
But you better use thatopportunity very carefully.
You better be kind and courteousand respectful.
You better not just meet theexpectations.
You better exceed theexpectations.
Mm-hmm.
.
And then you begin to learnabout the personalities.
If there's a senior generationthat, that likes to talk and
meet, you better not wanna textand tweet with them.
You know?
(13:22):
I see.
It's a lot of learning whatdifferent generations need.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
I see.
Yeah.
Which is a, is a great dynamic,but, uh yeah.
Is a very tricky dynamic for,for families.
So let me, let me go thisdirection, uh, with you.
If you were to create achecklist, what are some of the
important first steps to take inthis planning process?
Speaker 2 (13:45):
Well, for me, the first one needs to be an
intentional decision.
And for this decision, it comesdown to one thing.
Do you want to be a family firstbusiness or a business first
family.
Now here's the difference.
95% or more of the multitude ofemails, phone calls,
conversations I have come frompeople operating as a family
(14:08):
first.
Let's not rock the boat.
We don't wanna get dad mad.
Right?
I wonder what's on mom's mind.
You know, if he hadn't marriedher, we'd be fine.
Gosh, I think there's a will I,you know, we just all get along.
We'll be just fine.
We love each other and they'reoperating their future on a
habit assumption, a hope andtradition.
And sometimes I, that does workout.
(14:30):
But I call that lucky.
Now, if you wanna operate as afamily first, that's okay with
me.
As long as the business is ahobby, but you cannot count on
it for good decision making,productivity and profitability.
What I teach and the tools theyreceive, the template tools help
them become a business firstfamily.
Now, some people don't like theway that that is said, but let
(14:51):
me tell you what it means.
As a business first family, itdoes not demean the family does
not say the business is moreimportant than you the family.
But what it says is that we loveand honor you, this family, so
very much, we better get thebusiness right?
Mm-hmm.
.
And so my goal as I work withpeople in business is that the
insight they gain, the toolsthey lead with help them
(15:13):
increase their productivity,their profitability.
But I want them to have somepeace of mind so they can sit
together happily at a holidaytable.
Mm-hmm.
.
And what I have found, Dan, isthat if they don't treat it as a
business, you can lose bothbusiness and family.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
Yeah.
That boy, that is great, greatwisdom.
So you encourage some families,I, I guess what I'm hearing you
say is that they have to, uh,remove the emotion away from it
a little bit and take off thefamily hat and, and say this is
a business and we, it has to beprofitable and we have to make
good wise business decisions.
That's great advice.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
I just wanna say, I don't want moms and dads
bringing in the kids.
I want leader managers hiringworthy employees, earning the
right for labor managementleadership and an opportunity
for ownership.
There is a hierarchy that was atriangle that I just gave you.
I want every, I want everybodyto start as labor junkie
(16:07):
equipment, scoop poop, work, allthe holidays, long nights.
Okay.
Then you labor while you get tomanage because we hired you,
well you, you brought somethingto the team.
Mm-hmm.
, it might bemechanical skills or herdsman
ship or agronomy or marketing.
Uh, it might, you know, youbrought something, so I'm gonna
put you in charge of that.
And as a manager, you know, youjust don't get to do what you
(16:27):
want.
You have to have goals, makesure there's money, report to
other people, get enough peopleto support you so the work gets
done.
And then since you manage that,well you now manage something
else.
But I always have to remind thesenior generation that at the
pinnacle of your career, you getto become labor again.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
,
Speaker 2 (16:46):
We kind of forget that one.
Yeah.
You know, but we have worked sohard.
We said to somebody, follow me,join the business.
Follow me.
Labor.
Labor, labor.
Wow, you're good at that.
Yeah.
Management.
Management.
And now I get to follow you.
Yes.
And yet I had a young man say tome at a national ag meeting, you
know, I can't wait for my oldman to die.
And he absolutely meant it.
(17:07):
And I had a father say to me,you know, I think my kids just
want me outta here.
I think they just want me dead.
Well, what he doesn't know isthat I have worked.
Are you from Indiana?
Dan?
Speaker 1 (17:16):
Yes.
I'm from Indiana.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
So I have done the Indiana young farmer meeting a
number of times, Uhhuh, and Iknow his next generation.
And I said, dad, that is nottrue.
They don't want you dead.
But what they want is the wisemaster one who's ridden the
roller coaster.
Yes.
Because the whole purpose ofthis marching up, the triangle
of transition of intelligenceand experience requires that we
(17:39):
learn a rising generation has tolearn how to lead.
And the senior generation has tolearn how to leave right.
Now that doesn't mean we kickyou off the farm.
No, no.
That is your soul.
And oh, we need you.
One of the most important thingsa senior generation needs to
provide is their wisdom to thosewho are coming up.
(17:59):
And the most important questionthey'll ask is this.
Wow, that sounds like a greatidea.
How are you managing your risk?
Mm-hmm.
, you know, haveyou thought about this?
Or I have seen this happen.
Do you have a plan B in case ithappens to you?
In other words, we have to havepeople in our lives who have
what I call grit.
They've been tested over thelong haul and the enemy of grit
(18:21):
is ease.
Here's a challenge.
Sometimes we've made it way tooeasy for the rising generations
and our children because wedon't want them to fail.
We don't want them to makemistakes.
And so they have never developedany grit.
Well, you take a look at many ofthese, of the senior generation
right now who have been throughthe eighties, let me tell you,
they've had grit.
Or grit is transferable.
(18:43):
Maybe they've lost a child ormaybe they've lost, maybe
they've had cancer.
See, grit is transferable, butit is learning how to work
through difficult times, whetherit be through resilience and
sacrifice, whether it be throughfaith and support.
But that senior generation, ifthey have made it this far, they
have that.
And that is much needed by therising generation.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
All right, Jolene, let's talk about fair and equal
and, and I have four kids of myown.
So I have, as I've raised kids,we've dealt with, you know what
is fair, but are they the samething when it comes to a family
farm?
Speaker 2 (19:18):
So let me take you to a couple questions.
I was asked last week, I was ata large dairy meeting and one of
the next generation said to me,you know, I've been working on
this dairy for 17 years.
Uh, my dad believes that fair isnot always equal, but mom
believes that equal is equal.
So if dad dies first am Iscrewed,,
Speaker 1 (19:41):
.
Speaker 2 (19:42):
And then right after he left, here comes another one.
My sister and I have beenworking in this operation for a
lot of years.
And so we're wondering whyshould we bust our butt just so
our brothers and sisters can getrich?
Right?
So yes, fair and equal is thenumber one stumbling block.
I would call it an excuse of whypeople don't do what they need
to do.
So since I do so many mediainterviews, this is how I
(20:05):
explain the difference betweenfair and equal.
Here is equal.
Just picture this.
I have a beautiful apple pie.
It smells so good.
It's gonna taste so good.
And I could hardly wait to shareit.
And so I bring 1, 2, 3, 4 ofyou, all of you to the table.
And I have to cut that thing in90 degree angles.
Four dessert plates.
You each get one fourth of thepie that is equal.
(20:26):
Now here is fair, I have abeautiful apple pie.
Oh my gosh, it smells so good.
It's gonna taste so good.
And I could hardly wait to shareit.
And then I step back and I thinkabout the apples that went into
the pie.
And then I step back and think,gosh, who planted those trees?
Who watered those trees?
Who kept the disease in thefungus away?
Who nurtured those trees?
So that years down the roadthose buggers could finally
bloom.
(20:47):
And then I'm wondering whopicked the apples?
Who stored the apples?
Who marketed the apples?
So I could go to the store andbuy the apples and make you a
pie?
And now I bring 1, 2, 3, 4 ofyou to the table.
And I say, if you notice thepieces of the pie are not the
same size, but neither has beenthe investment into the making
of this pie.
(21:07):
Had these two not been here for20 and 18 years, this net worth
in this farm would have nevergrown.
I would've given up a long timeago with rules and regulations
and and having to deal withtechnology.
Had they not been here, the farmwould not have grown had they
not been here.
I couldn't come and go as theywant had they not been here.
This legacy that means so muchto me and hopefully to you could
(21:29):
be in the wrong hands.
And so that doesn't mean I haveforgotten you, but please
understand what they receivecomes with a great deal of risk.
Mm-hmm.
, what we have setaside for you, there is no risk.
Now I will address the issue.
If they don't have anything toset aside, I try to encourage my
families to meet with each oftheir adult children separately.
(21:53):
Oh, that's good.
And I want them to ask, I wantthe adult generation to ask the
next generation some specificquestions.
Here's the first one.
You know, we're working on ourwills and our buy-sell agreement
for the business and we'rewondering do you have any
expectations for what is in ourwill and inheritance?
Do you have any expectations howit might affect you?
What you, and then the secondthing, is there something that
(22:14):
we currently own that means alot to you, that you would
really hope comes your way whensomething happens to dad and I
or mom and I And then I alwayssay, you know, the land and the
equipment, the farm has a lot ofvalue.
Mm-hmm.
, we want this farmto continue, but that land and
equipment is not cash.
(22:34):
What it is is resources andtools.
So those who are farming cancontinue the business.
Right.
So how do you feel about thisbusiness continuing and how do
you feel about, we've got theright people doing it cuz these
people have worked here a longtime.
Mm-hmm.
, you call themyour sisters and brothers.
We call them really worthyemployees who've earned the
(22:55):
right for management andleadership and ownership along
the way.
Then when you, that doesn't meanthe people you're talking to
have any right.
In your final decision, it justmeans you've heard their
perspective.
Mm-hmm.
.
Yeah.
But if they don't hear it fromyou, then there will be fighting
on the way to the funeral homeand the will will be contested
(23:17):
and you're gonna break up thefamily.
So I'm, I'm very clear that wemake sure that if you want the
business to continue, there areterms mm-hmm of
which it can continue becauseyou're also gonna say to the
other siblings who are not inthe business and those who are
in the business will bepurchasing from us and that will
(23:37):
be our retirement.
Mm-hmm.
.
And so they are funding what itis we're going to be living on
as well as what we have setaside for that.
But they are continuing notgetting this freehand, they're
continuing this with obligationsas well.
It's all spelled out Now whenwe're all together, here's what
we're gonna do.
I had our attorney write a copyof my will in plain English
(23:58):
.
Cause he can add all the wheretwo, four and their As is later.
Yeah.
I have a copy of the buy sellagreement of the terms of
transitioning assets of the farmbusiness.
I'm going to go through thosewith e with all of us together.
And then each of you take acopy.
You grew up in this big oldhouse.
You come on back and tell me oneat a time what it is you're
thinking and then you go to theattorney and get it legal, what
(24:20):
you need to do.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
That's great wisdom.
Yeah.
That's very good stuff.
I think I already know theanswer to this next question,
but uh, let me ask it anyway.
Does a genetic relationshipequal a good working
relationship?
Speaker 2 (24:36):
Duh.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
,
Speaker 2 (24:39):
Just because you're born to someone and raised, does
it mean you can and should beworking together?
Now let's go back to thepremise.
Being a business first family,it does not demean the family.
Here's what it means.
I believe that acceptance in afamily is unconditional.
Right?
If I have a son or daughter, Ihave a joyful job.
(25:00):
I get to love them, I get tolead them, I get to help them
grow and I must let them go.
What I believe in a businessfirst family is acceptance and a
business is conditional and itis not a birthright.
Mm-hmm, matter offact, I have six specific
questions that must be answeredby the next generation before
you should even be invited to bepart of a family business.
(25:22):
Then when I was down in Oklahomaworking at the land grant
university, juniors and seniorsin farm and ranch management,
one of the juniors came up to meand said, you know Jolene, when
I graduate I'm going back to theranch.
I said, have you been invited?
Just cuz you want to doesn'tmean you get to, we're not
bringing in kids.
Now let me, let me just bring upone major problem that I see
happening more so in the last 10years, we are so eager to have
(25:45):
next generations join us in thebusiness.
Mm-hmm.
.
And so the senior generationsays, oh my gosh, we've gotta
rent more land.
Oh my gosh, we gotta have biggerand more equipment mm-hmm.
.
And they keep the debt and allof a sudden the whole thing goes
down the tube because we havenot done what I call the
probationary period to make surethat we can work well together.
You must meet thoserequirements.
(26:06):
They're based on 30 years ofsitting at kitchen tables and
once they meet those, we have amuch higher chance to success.
Do you wanna hear what they are?
Yes.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
Yeah.
Share those with me please.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
Okay.
Very quickly, if you wanna workhere, what do you bring?
Mm-hmm.
, you've got tobring something that is a value
to the business.
Right.
Second, do we even need you?
Just cuz we're really good atit.
Does it mean that we needanother person or we need those
skills, right?
So are we gonna change thebusiness?
You know, is we going to supporta different type of business?
(26:36):
And then the next one is, sowhat does it cost?
Everybody comes with theirhandout.
Mm-hmm.
you, you'd besurprised, but they'd like a
paycheck.
Right.
They'd like health insurance,maybe dental and optical.
They wanna pickup to drive withall the fuel.
They'd like the farm to pay fortheir smartphone and their iPad.
They'd like the farm to givethem a house to live in rent
free and pay for all theutilities.
Mm-hmm.
when you add thatup.
And we're often butting up to$90,000 and sometimes they think
(26:59):
so little is so little, but weare talking compensation
package, not just salary.
What does it cost?
Then the next one is veryimportant and oh, they just,
they just don't like this one.
Yeah.
I want the next generation towork for a non-family boss for
two to three years.
There are so many lessons.
Actually there's about 30lessons you learn when you have
(27:21):
a non-family boss.
Mm-hmm.
and parents arenot the best teachers.
I know you need them back on thefarm and I know they wanna come
back to the farm, but they comeback at a whole different level.
They have understood that if you, they come home and get treated
like dirt, they don't have tostay there.
They can work elsewhere.
Right.
They learn that sometimes thingsaren't so bad at home.
Yes.
They learn that respect isearned, that you must be hired
(27:43):
and you can be fired and you'reaccountable.
You have to show up at time.
There's so, so many lessons youlearn.
I want them to have a non-familyboss for two to three
consecutive views.
This is not internships, this iswhere you've worked for somebody
else.
You've had good performancereviews or promotion.
Mm-hmm.
.
And then I always ask two morequestions for the next
generation.
I want to know, are you stillliving at home and is your
(28:06):
mother still doing your laundry
Speaker 1 (28:07):
?
And what does that tell you?
Speaker 2 (28:10):
Emotional intelligence.
Oh yeah.
If you're still living at homeand mama's still doing your
laundry, you're still mommy anddaddy's little girl and boy and
they're still your mommy anddaddy.
Again, please don't have parentsbringing the kids.
I want them bringing in worthyemployees.
And I need to add one more thingabout a family business.
It is not a place torehabilitate a family member.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
Oh, that's
Speaker 2 (28:31):
Good.
Right.
That there's somebody in yourfamily who's angry or addicted
or arrogant.
Mm-hmm.
or lazy.
Don't hire them, nobody elsewould.
Yeah.
Why do you give'em a paycheck sothey can keep acting that way?
So I'm at another meeting andI've known the president of the
association and his wife, they'dbeen in some of my leadership
training classes and they askedme to speak at their banquet of
(28:51):
their group.
So we're, I'm at their table andwe're visiting and dad said, oh,
Jolene, we bit the bullet.
We finally brought our son intothe business.
Great dad.
How's that working for you?
Mm.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
That's
Speaker 2 (29:02):
What's going on.
He just doesn't have the workethic that we need.
Mm-hmm.
mom elbowed himand she said, you tell him like
it is.
He's just plain lazy.
Oh.
I said to dad, how long has hebeen working for you?
Well, about a year and a half.
Hmm.
Have you been paying him?
Mom says, Hey, listen up, I'mthe bookkeeper.
He gets paid big bucks.
He even has more fringe benefitsthan we do.
(29:24):
And then I asked dad theimportant question, so Dad, why
exactly did you hire thisemployee?
And he said, well, he couldn'tkeep a job anyplace else.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
Well, lazy here.
Lazy there.
Right.
.
So be very careful when youtreat things as a business, then
you can love them.
You can give them resources,they can improve themselves,
they can go elsewhere, butthey're not working in the
business.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
Sure, yes.
That's great wisdom.
But yeah, I see it.
That's very difficult to applyand uh, pull off.
And as much you've given us somany great steps here for
families, but here's what comesinto my mind.
What percentage of the familiesthat you work with actually
(30:10):
follow through with this entireprocess?
Do most of'em do it or is theresome that are like, eh, that's
just, that sounds kind of hardso we're just gonna, you know,
or maybe one spouse, um, of thesenior generation says, no,
we're not gonna do that.
You know, I'm gonna always letour son have this position.
How, how many of'em actuallyfollow through and do what you
(30:32):
say?
Take your advice.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
When we started this podcast, I said I'm very picky
who I work with mm-hmm.
and they have tobe ready for me if there is
entitlement uhhuh Or laziness orignorance they don't want to
improve their intelligence on.
Right.
I don't work with them.
So I have a very high successrate.
(30:57):
And I'm gonna tell yousomething.
When I, when I do familybusiness workshops and I, they
give me a full day, I will dothe entire morning and then
after lunch we will do a panelof key advisors.
I want them to see what anattorney, an accountant and a
financial planner.
And I always act as a familybusiness coach.
Mm-hmm.
what it looks likewhen we have your best interest
at heart and we answerquestions.
But the last thing, I neverleave them without
(31:20):
accountability.
I don't want them going homeoverwhelmed, but I wanna know
who is going to continue thisprocess, write the name mm-hmm.
and then I say,how many of you wrote a name of
somebody who's not here?
.
And they'd love to do that.
Yeah.
Because I always ask them thisquestion to end.
If you have seven birds sittingon an electrical wire, seven
birds, and you answer this Dan,seven birds on the wire and 40
(31:42):
decide to fly away, how many areleft?
Speaker 1 (31:44):
Yeah.
You have three.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
Well, who knows, just because you decide to do
something doesn't mean you didit.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
Oh, good point.
I see
Speaker 2 (31:51):
People will make decisions, but it is the follow
through.
And one of one of my topics iscalled if we huff and puff, we
blow your house down.
Guess it's based on the thirdpig of the three little pigs who
did it, right?
Mm-hmm.
putting in onebrick at a time and then they
used mortar to hold it together.
Well, your mortar is yourattorney, your accountant, your
(32:12):
financial planner and yourfamily business coach.
Mm-hmm.
.
But there are tools that theycan do and they, it it's usually
a five to seven year process toget these bricks in place.
Some people are so ready orsometimes it's a health issue,
or it's, it's, it's adisaster.
And all of a sudden they have tobuild a house very quick and
they try to build it a bricksand straw and it falls over.
(32:34):
It requires intentional purposeand giving dignity to the fact
that you are people who do allof the work.
Mm-hmm.
.
And because you respectyourself, you want to do it
right.
Yeah.
And so you do put those bricksin
Speaker 1 (32:49):
Place.
Yeah.
Five to seven years.
Wow.
That, that's really,
Speaker 2 (32:52):
That's a minimum.
But well think about the hardassets here.
Mm-hmm.
if, and, and thatmight be terms which go to 10
years or 15 years to a contract.
Right.
Or it might be contract fordeed.
Mm-hmm.
or it might be,um, I I I want people, oh my
gosh, oh my gosh, I almostforgot to say this.
It's so important.
I want them to keep theiroperations in its own entity.
(33:13):
This is anything moveable cropsand critter people and
machinery.
And I want land in its ownentity.
Now land is often the securityof the senior generation.
Mm-hmm.
, but they're tiedtogether.
So the land entity, theoperations, rents from the
owners.
Mm-hmm.
and the owners, ifthey don't get rent, they can
rent to somebody else.
(33:33):
You know, so they always havethat security, but then they're
must be, anytime you form astructure like a partnership,
flp llc, CRS Corp, you must havea separate document called an
exit strategy or a buy sellagreement that trumps a will.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
Hmm.
Okay.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
Wills are changed on a whim.
As long as somebody is deemed tobe of sound mind, they can
change their will.
And so this buy-sell agreementhas terms for death and
disability and divorce anddisaster and disillusionment.
I wanna quit.
Give me my money.
I wanna get it now.
You know, and if you ever go, oh, you're gonna love this.
(34:12):
If you ever go to an attorneyand they help you develop a, um,
a structure like an LLC or acorporation, and the same day
you sign those papers, if you'renot signing a buy sell
agreement, I want you to takethat attorney and hang them up
by the balls or boobs.
I don't care what suck they arecuz they did you a disservice.
Yes.
You don't create a structurewithout a way to end it and
(34:32):
without a way to transitionassets within it.
Now many people think that thereare three sentences in their
legal documents.
The organizational or bylaws orarticles cover it.
No, no, no.
This is a separate document.
There's actually seven differentparts to a buy sell agreement
that must be in.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
So this is protection then for, for everyone.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
It, it allows the business to continue.
It assures income if that seniorgeneration is depending on farm
income for their retirementneeds or for the goals they have
as they transition in otherparts of their life.
But it allows the business tocontinue and it creates terms of
which it can continue.
It doesn't say everything isgifted.
(35:12):
Uh, there may be neededcompensation for sweat equity,
which is done every year, not atthe time of death.
There may be inheritance thatcomes that way.
But if we're purchasing, theseare the terms of which it is to
be done.
I
Speaker 1 (35:24):
See.
Yeah.
I see.
So let's switch gears and gokind of a different route.
As many of our listeners know,Topcon is in the technology
business.
So one of the huge upsides ofprecision agriculture is the
ability to track costs and datato help farmers make wise
decisions.
So Jolene, how can thisinformation be useful in a
(35:50):
transition plan to being able tolook at the data from yield to
be able to look at the, the, thedata of, of what the field is
actually telling you the aagronomic data does, does it
help in this process?
Speaker 2 (36:05):
Well it's certainly teaching the skills mm-hmm.
of knowing detailsand accountability and results.
Results.
Speaker 1 (36:10):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (36:11):
So we need the same thing when it comes to a family
business.
We need details, accountability,and results.
So we have to start withfinances.
I need them accurate, I needthem timely, and I need them
transparent.
That requires details.
Now technology is something Iwill tell you, I, I'm glad to,
um, pass that along to the nextgeneration in her.
(36:31):
I don't wanna have to deal withthat stuff.
Right.
But I am very interested in theresults and I better know how
they got the results.
But would you please do thatwork?
I don't want, again, productionto be your excuse for not doing
the human side of what needs tobe done.
Right.
And yet I am just like everybodyon this podcast.
The more I have to deal withpeople, the more I like cows.
(36:51):
Because if I don't like that obitty, I'm gonna send her to
market.
But you can't do that with momsor dads or sisters or brothers.
Right.
And yet communication is thebloodstream of the business.
Communication requires insight,documentation, and details.
Technology is certainly a partof that.
And then the details that youare helping people gather and
collect and analyze certainlybecomes a part of the appraised
(37:14):
value.
Mm-hmm.
, because it isimproving the business.
Right.
It is increasing productivityand profitability.
Mm-hmm.
,
Speaker 1 (37:20):
That's great.
That's good answers and, andhelpful to know what, what are
some of the risks involved whena transition plan is not in
writing.
What if they don't sit down anddo all this work, but it's what
if it's just in grandpa's head?
What are the risks?
Speaker 2 (37:39):
Well, I will tell you this.
A conversation's not a contract.
And if it's not in writing, itdoes not exist.
Mm.
Here are the, and, and people infamily business lie.
They do Now they may not meanto, but they will say the same
thing over and over again anddon't do the work to assure it
will happen.
They say things like, work hardsomeday this will all be yours.
Or you know, yeah, I'm gonnaretire.
(38:01):
And then there's that dreaded,oh, you don't have to worry
about your brothers and sisters.
They've got their jobs.
They're not interested in thebusiness.
Now that's true.
Until you're dead theneverybody's very interested in
the assets of the business.
So you need to understand, youmust have things clarified and
in writing and discussed Onemore thing.
It must be revised.
(38:22):
I sat with a family and mom,well I, I finally said to mom
and dad, you know, do you haveyour wills on hand?
It would be really helpful if Icould see actually what is in
your will.
I'm not an attorney but there'ssomething I'm looking for.
And the dust starts to fly andthey bring them out.
They had guardians for theirchildren and their childrens
were in their forties.
I said, don't you think youmight need to revise the wheel
Speaker 1 (38:44):
?
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
So we need legal discussed.
Discussed is key revised.
I want an estate plan.
Those, that's the transitionplan we talked about.
Yeah.
I want an ownership andmanagement transfer plan and I
wanna buy sell
Speaker 1 (38:56):
Agreement.
So what I hear you saying is forI'm most all families, I would
say they need to bring in someprofessionals to help them in
this transition.
This is not something they'regoing to just be, there's work
that to be done, but they'vegotta have some outside help to
come in and make it legal forthe business.
Correct.
Speaker 2 (39:14):
Yes.
You know, do the best of whatyou can and what you know.
But when you're talking laws andestate tax and you're talking
transition and, um, buy sales,those are all legal and
financial intelligent documents.
Mm-hmm.
that need to beclarified.
And so I always encourage myfamilies, cuz we do a lot of
work to get them ready to gothere so that then they go, we
(39:36):
don't waste time and a lot ofmoney.
Uh, I say, you know, let themknow this is what you want.
This is what you have.
Mm-hmm.
how things aretitled, what you own, what you
owe.
Here's my current documents thatI have in place, but you're the
expert here.
What am I missing?
Mm-hmm.
, you know, isthere another way to do this
that might be more beneficial?
Would you please give me twooptions for me to choose from?
(39:58):
Because they have worked withhundreds of people in very
similar situation.
Laws have changed and there areoptions out there.
So we very much need to havethese advisors to make things
legal because when I said thingsin writing, some things have to
be notarized and signed andfiled and documented.
We have to make sure that themoney, the taxes are paid.
We have to understand stepped upbasis and capital gains.
(40:21):
There's all kinds of things.
But when I, when I haveworkshops and I'm including an
attorney, an accountant,financial planner, I hear them
say some because the lastquestion I ask them is, what do
these people do that drives youabsolutely nuts.
Mm-hmm.
.
And the attorney will say, well,you want me to write?
You will.
So everybody will get along andthe accountant says, oh, we
(40:42):
weren't gonna pay a darn thingto the government.
How do we save taxes?
And the financial planner says,you wanna know how long you're
gonna live.
Do you have enough money to getthere?
Well, all of those areunrealistic expectations, but
let me tell you how you can getclarity, peace of mind.
Because the number one thing Ihear after I'd finished my
workshops is this, you've beensleeping under my bed.
(41:03):
I told'em it was highlyentertaining.
You see all of these situations,we, IM personalize.
They think they're ours and itcan never happen to anybody
else.
Mm-hmm.
or never has to bedone by anybody else.
And yet there's a lot of lessonswe can learn from others that
will give us that peace of mind.
And I can, I want us to sittogether happily at a holiday
table.
Right.
That only happens when you treatit as a business.
Speaker 1 (41:24):
Yeah.
All right.
One, one more question for you.
Uh, you've written and talkedabout honoring the family, but
you must do the business.
Right.
Tell us, just to wrap things up,what does that mean to do the
business?
Right.
Speaker 2 (41:40):
Silence is the greatest destroyer of a family
and a family business.
This means communication.
Mm-hmm.
, whether it's yourmorning huddles at the busiest
time of year, who's gonna dowhat do you have, what you need?
Let's get to work.
Whether it's that monthlymanagement meeting with a
planned agenda where you have anoutline in your shop and people
circle things that need to bebrought up.
(42:01):
Nothing circled, don't meet,only discuss the things that are
circled.
You don't waste time, whetherit's that annual meeting, uh,
that you need to have to informpeople, bring people up to
speed.
Uh, what do in-laws and, andyour advisors need to know.
That is the type ofcommunication that we're after.
But part of that communicationis hampered because we keep it
(42:22):
to ourselves.
And I had a family say to me,Jolene, would you go talk to
Grandma?
Grandma is in her eighties.
She owns 100% of the land.
We don't even know what's in herwill.
And we've been running thisbusiness for lots of years.
Yeah.
Would you talk to grandma?
And I said, does Grandma wannatalk to me?
And they said she does.
Yeah.
So I went to the nursing homeand I talked to grandma and she
(42:45):
said to me, you know, Jolene,I'm not gonna tell any of my
kids what's in my will becauseright now they all come to see
me.
Speaker 1 (42:52):
Oh, whoops.
,.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (42:56):
But she, she told me what's in her will, she's gonna
break up the family, they'regonna lose the business.
Wow.
Now I cannot go back and tellthe family what she said, but I
did go back and say, you allbetter have a plan B,
Speaker 1 (43:07):
Uhhuh,.
Yeah.
Wow.
Speaker 2 (43:08):
So the first thing is make sure communication.
The second thing is make theintentional choice to operate as
a business so you can still befamily.
The third is get things inwriting, legal, documented, make
sure it's financially strong.
Speaker 1 (43:24):
Yeah.
Because if it's not in writing,you're saying it doesn't exist.
So.
Wow.
Speaker 2 (43:28):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (43:29):
Jolene, I can't thank you enough for joining us today
and sharing your wisdom and yourexperience to help farm families
on this very difficult topic.
Speaker 2 (43:38):
I love what I do, and I have been so blessed to see
the benefits of people whoactually not just decide to do
it, but they actually, the birdsgo and they do it
Speaker 1 (43:49):
To learn more.
I encourage all of our listenersto visit jolene brown.com where
you'll find lots of helpfulcontent on agriculture life and
help for farming families.
Farm transitions for familiesdeserve time and attention.
It takes wisdom and it takesthoughtfulness and even
assistance from professionals.
But it's very important tohandle this part of the business
(44:11):
Well, and I wanna thank each ofour listeners for tuning in
today.
Topcon appreciates all of ourfarmers who work so tirelessly
to put food on the tables.
You guys rock.
We love you.
If you enjoyed today's episode,remember to like, share,
subscribe to Topcon TalksAgriculture on Spotify, apple
(44:31):
Podcasts, Amazon music, orwherever you get your podcasts.
We'll see you next time.
Go out and make it a great day.
Welcome, welcome, welcome to the Top Con Talks
Agriculture podcast.
We have a big episode for youtoday and I'm thrilled that you
have taken the time to listenand, uh, I know that you won't
be disappointed.
My name is Dan Hendricks and Iam your host for today.
I serve as a senior businessdevelopment manager for Topcon
(00:35):
Agriculture.
I get to work with an amazingteam of talented individuals who
love agriculture.
They enjoy technology, and theystrive to help farmers and
growers find solutions.
I'm excited for today's podcastfor a lot of reasons.
It's a very applicable topic formany farm families and we have
(00:56):
an incredible guest to share herinsight with us today.
In today's episode, we aretalking about the importance of
farm succession.
And let me say this, farmsuccession is tricky.
It's difficult, uh, maybe evenstressful, but it's very, very
important to farms and farmfamilies.
(01:19):
And we are very fortunate todayto have a very special guest who
I'm very excited about.
Someone that many of you in theagriculture community may
already be familiar with.
Her name is Jolene Brown, andJolene is a spokesperson and a
champion for people inagriculture.
She's a farmer in eastern Iowa,contributor to successful
(01:44):
Farming magazine, an author oftwo books, one entitled, holy
Crap, I Married a Farmer, whichis a great, great title.
And the second is sometimes youneed More than a two by four.
So, hello Jolene and welcome tothe Topcon Podcast,
Speaker 2 (02:02):
The greetings to you and to those who are listening,
I couldn't wait to be part ofyour programming.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
Oh, well we're excited to have you.
So excited.
And for our listeners, Jolene,tell us a little bit about
yourself.
What inspired you to become afamily consultant to farmers?
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Well, I've been professionally speaking since
the eighties.
And at that time our interestrates got into 20% and we lost
63% of our net worth.
So the haunting words that camedown our country roads were
bankruptcy, foreclosure,suicide, and even murder.
So, you know, it's an eyeopener.
(02:39):
We were living through that timeas well on our farm.
And what I knew I had to do wasto help people build an internal
net worth when their externalone is gone.
So that put me in a lot ofmedia, so many venues to speak,
and that just continued.
But as I would attend all ofthese agriculture meetings as
their speaker mm-hmm.
(03:00):
production.
I mean, we are superior atproduction.
We can go just about anywhereand learn about weeds or seeds
or breeds or feeds or even moneymachinery marketing.
But we're crappy with people
It's the people that do all theproduction.
It was also the people that wasthe roadblock that we're keeping
others up at night.
And so I decided that I neededto focus on the human side of
(03:23):
agriculture.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
Oh, well that's fantastic.
And, and Ed and I agree withwhat you're saying, um, as, as
amazing as farmers are, youknow, today we're talking about
something that's near and dearto them with farm succession.
And um, I do agree that that isa very tricky thing.
Farmers are good at lots ofthings, but sometimes this, this
(03:45):
whole topic of planning, it'svery complicated.
It's difficult, it's tricky.
And uh, but I think as you willattest, as we hear more from
you, it's very, very needed forour farm families.
So let's jump into today's topicby discussing family farms, the
business and the lifestyle.
(04:06):
The family farm links the pastand the present and the future.
So you have children that areworking for the parents.
Sometimes you have parents thatare working for their children.
And since the farm is theoutcome of their work and
dedication, they have a sense ofenormous pride in in their farm,
which, which they should, all ofwhich is a very good thing.
(04:27):
But it's complicated and itcomes with some potential
pitfalls.
And the plan for succession andhanding down the farm assets to
fatally members can be ratherdifficult.
Um, so with all these familydynamics and equipment and land
resources to consider and thefinancial position to consider
(04:51):
the best way to transfer afamily farm varies from farm to
farm, I think we would all agreewith that.
And there is a myriad ofdecisions that have to be made.
So, Jolene, let me start withthe question.
Is there a right time for familyfarmers to begin discussing
their transition plan?
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Well, you know, I get all types of questions and phone
calls and interactions and I hadan 80 year old man say to me,
you know, Jolene, someday Iought to be turning something
over to my boy.
His boy was 60
Speaker 1 (05:28):
Speaker 2 (05:29):
So, so is there a right time?
You betcha.
And one of the things you saidin your comment is we have in
your opening is that we havemany, um, adult children working
for parents mm-hmm.
But we forgot to then say, butit's grandma and grandpa who
still may own everything.
So we have to understand thetransition can be multiple
generations.
And this does not have to be adreaded process.
(05:49):
If you understand that there aretools that you can put in place
that will help you transitionthree things.
Cuz we have to transition threethings here, Dan.
We have to transition theintelligence.
In other words, they have toknow about the business.
They have to bring something tothe business from their
education.
The second thing we have totransition is the experience.
(06:10):
So this does not happenovernight.
Experiences where you begin toearn another generation's trust
and respect, a willingness tochange and learn.
Mm-hmm.
But the third thing is what wealways think about.
And that is we have totransition the hard assets, the
land, the equipment, thecritters, the crops, those kinds
of things.
But it is the first two thatcause so, so many, uh, points
(06:33):
and roadblocks that keep us fromdoing the last one.
We also will go to professionaladvisors for the last one.
We'll go to attorneys andaccountants and we very much
need them.
Um, but again, unless you havethe first two in place, we have
a problem because the challengewith transitioning a business,
it's first deciding is there abusiness worth transitioning?
Speaker 1 (06:55):
Yeah, that's very good.
Yes.
And, and you said the word dreadin there that sometimes, uh,
growers dread that.
Talk a little bit more aboutthat, unpack that.
Why do you think that is?
Why do growers or, or maybegrandma or grandpa, why are they
dreading this whole process?
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Well, there's always emotion involved.
And when emotion and logiccollide, emotions going to win.
Mm-hmm.
Um, lack of fear of not beingneeded or worthwhile or
appreciated.
Um, fear of individual needs,will they be met?
Is this transition takes placeand in the future.
(07:32):
So fear always has to beaddressed.
And what I find some of theemotions are very, uh, dominant.
There can be anger or resentmentor jealousy or fear.
There's always tears
And so, right.
Um, I have learned, I have gotto deal with the emotions so we
can get to the logic, but ittakes a lot of one to one time
(07:53):
and building trust.
Uh, and I should say credibilityas a, as a consultant here, so
that I can figure out what'sgoing on behind the scenes.
Mm-hmm.
with family members.
Right.
Uh, either by zoom or by phone,by who I would even come and
work with them.
Cause I have to make sure mywork can be of value, first of
(08:14):
all.
And they have to be ready forme.
Cuz Dan, I'm not yourtraditional consultant.
I don't mediate.
I dictate
I see.
I've been at this long enoughand, and when you've learned
lessons over 34 years of whatworks and what doesn't, and I
don't let people get by with toomuch.
And so they know that most ofthe people who invite me to
their kitchen table have heardme speak.
(08:34):
So they're well aware of whatthey're going to be in, in store
for.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
Yes.
Well, it, it's great that you,you know, help them with that.
And probably being an impartialthird party really helps you get
to the, the core of thedecisions that, uh, need to be
made and maybe remove theemotion from that.
Uh, before we go too deepthough, into this transition,
you had mentioned this earlierabout the business being
(08:59):
profitable, but why is thatimportant to assess whether the
farm is actually profitable ornot?
Speaker 2 (09:06):
Well, I always have to start with the existing
owners, which is quite often thesenior generation.
Mm-hmm.
financially secure.
I, I remind them that their kidsdon't have to start where they
are at today because you didn't
Right.
But neither can they start whereyou started.
Mm-hmm.
(09:26):
secure or they will neverrelinquish control.
So I have to say to them, if youhave put in years of blood and
sweat and tears into thebusiness and you don't have that
house you want to have, bygolly, you deserve it.
And maybe it ought be handicapaccessible.
And I say to the seniorgeneration, if you've not taken
that holiday you want, by gollyyou deserve it.
(09:47):
And I always have to ask, ifyou've not provided and taken
care of your long-termhealthcare needs, you might
bring down the business that youwant to continue.
And so it is extremely importantthat they're using an advisor.
It's called a certifiedfinancial planner.
Mm-hmm.
And this is somebody who sitsdown, uh, individually, not as a
(10:07):
work team, but usually beginningwith the senior generation to
find out what they own and whatthey owe, what do they need to
live on, uh, do they have theirlegal documents in place with
beneficiaries and wills, allthose kinds of things.
But most importantly, they'regonna help them figure out what
is it that they need to live.
And until we make sure they'resecure, they won't relinquish
(10:30):
because the next generationdings with their security.
Oh, they wanna buy more land,but what about me?
Oh, you wanna buy more, uh,machinery, but what about me?
And so I have got to make surethey're financially secure
first.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
I see.
And, and I talk to a lot offriends, coworkers, people that
I know, um, you know, that arein farming, that, that are more
my age.
And so they have parents or, orgrandparents, um, that are in
that senior generation.
And sometimes the, the they,they see the letting go is tough
(11:02):
for that senior generation.
What would you say to someonewho is not the senior generation
but is more, you know, in themiddle, maybe the middle age, uh
, about how to help thatgeneration or maybe to be
patient with them through thisprocess or not get so frustrated
about that, that letting go,that's difficult.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Well, you really have to look into the mirror at your
behaviors.
respect and we don't just meettheir expectations, we exceed
their expectations.
If we don't honor the journey,the journey where they rode to
school uphill both ways on apony for four miles,
Speaker 1 (11:43):
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Yeah.
Then, then they're never gonnatransition be it I want, I want
them so financially secure sothat the next generation can
take the risk on what they canafford to lose or grow.
But the senior generation isokay, so they're what, you know,
they have been your role modelfor a long time.
Be it good or be it bad.
They, and they're often theowners of the assets.
(12:05):
So a lot of it comes withappreciation and respect.
But I want you to know it.
It's not always easy.
Here's an example.
When my father-in-law was 90, hewas still driving.
Now, he didn't say he should be,but he was
Speaker 1 (12:17):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
Yeah.
So he was an assisted living,but he would only drive from
there to the farmstead.
He comes into the driveway,always honking on the horn
because he's not gonna get outof the car, but we all come
running.
Okay.
So I'm the first one there.
Hey dad, how are you doingtoday?
Oh, pretty good.
Pretty good.
What's my hu He's, what's Keith?
That's my husband.
What's Keith up to today?
Is he out planting corn?
Oh no, dad, we had three inchesof rain last night.
(12:40):
It's too wet.
Well, you better tell him itain't gonna grow in the bag.
Well, I'll do that, dad, I'll dothat
I'm just not gonna tell himtoday.
I'm gonna wait till all the cropis in and then we'll both have a
good laugh,
So a lot of it is, is respectingand writing the rollercoaster.
Uh, but it's, it's really hardto get started in agriculture
unless there's somebody willingto incrementally give you an
(13:02):
opportunity.
But you better use thatopportunity very carefully.
You better be kind and courteousand respectful.
You better not just meet theexpectations.
You better exceed theexpectations.
Mm-hmm.
And then you begin to learnabout the personalities.
If there's a senior generationthat, that likes to talk and
meet, you better not wanna textand tweet with them.
You know?
(13:22):
I see.
It's a lot of learning whatdifferent generations need.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
I see.
Yeah.
Which is a, is a great dynamic,but, uh yeah.
Is a very tricky dynamic for,for families.
So let me, let me go thisdirection, uh, with you.
If you were to create achecklist, what are some of the
important first steps to take inthis planning process?
Speaker 2 (13:45):
Well, for me, the first one needs to be an
intentional decision.
And for this decision, it comesdown to one thing.
Do you want to be a family firstbusiness or a business first
family.
Now here's the difference.
95% or more of the multitude ofemails, phone calls,
conversations I have come frompeople operating as a family
(14:08):
first.
Let's not rock the boat.
We don't wanna get dad mad.
Right?
I wonder what's on mom's mind.
You know, if he hadn't marriedher, we'd be fine.
Gosh, I think there's a will I,you know, we just all get along.
We'll be just fine.
We love each other and they'reoperating their future on a
habit assumption, a hope andtradition.
And sometimes I, that does workout.
(14:30):
But I call that lucky.
Now, if you wanna operate as afamily first, that's okay with
me.
As long as the business is ahobby, but you cannot count on
it for good decision making,productivity and profitability.
What I teach and the tools theyreceive, the template tools help
them become a business firstfamily.
Now, some people don't like theway that that is said, but let
(14:51):
me tell you what it means.
As a business first family, itdoes not demean the family does
not say the business is moreimportant than you the family.
But what it says is that we loveand honor you, this family, so
very much, we better get thebusiness right?
Mm-hmm.
And so my goal as I work withpeople in business is that the
insight they gain, the toolsthey lead with help them
(15:13):
increase their productivity,their profitability.
But I want them to have somepeace of mind so they can sit
together happily at a holidaytable.
Mm-hmm.
And what I have found, Dan, isthat if they don't treat it as a
business, you can lose bothbusiness and family.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
Yeah.
That boy, that is great, greatwisdom.
So you encourage some families,I, I guess what I'm hearing you
say is that they have to, uh,remove the emotion away from it
a little bit and take off thefamily hat and, and say this is
a business and we, it has to beprofitable and we have to make
good wise business decisions.
That's great advice.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
I just wanna say, I don't want moms and dads
bringing in the kids.
I want leader managers hiringworthy employees, earning the
right for labor managementleadership and an opportunity
for ownership.
There is a hierarchy that was atriangle that I just gave you.
I want every, I want everybodyto start as labor junkie
(16:07):
equipment, scoop poop, work, allthe holidays, long nights.
Okay.
Then you labor while you get tomanage because we hired you,
well you, you brought somethingto the team.
Mm-hmm.
ship or agronomy or marketing.
Uh, it might, you know, youbrought something, so I'm gonna
put you in charge of that.
And as a manager, you know, youjust don't get to do what you
(16:27):
want.
You have to have goals, makesure there's money, report to
other people, get enough peopleto support you so the work gets
done.
And then since you manage that,well you now manage something
else.
But I always have to remind thesenior generation that at the
pinnacle of your career, you getto become labor again.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
Speaker 2 (16:46):
We kind of forget that one.
Yeah.
You know, but we have worked sohard.
We said to somebody, follow me,join the business.
Follow me.
Labor.
Labor, labor.
Wow, you're good at that.
Yeah.
Management.
Management.
And now I get to follow you.
Yes.
And yet I had a young man say tome at a national ag meeting, you
know, I can't wait for my oldman to die.
And he absolutely meant it.
(17:07):
And I had a father say to me,you know, I think my kids just
want me outta here.
I think they just want me dead.
Well, what he doesn't know isthat I have worked.
Are you from Indiana?
Dan?
Speaker 1 (17:16):
Yes.
I'm from Indiana.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
So I have done the Indiana young farmer meeting a
number of times, Uhhuh, and Iknow his next generation.
And I said, dad, that is nottrue.
They don't want you dead.
But what they want is the wisemaster one who's ridden the
roller coaster.
Yes.
Because the whole purpose ofthis marching up, the triangle
of transition of intelligenceand experience requires that we
(17:39):
learn a rising generation has tolearn how to lead.
And the senior generation has tolearn how to leave right.
Now that doesn't mean we kickyou off the farm.
No, no.
That is your soul.
And oh, we need you.
One of the most important thingsa senior generation needs to
provide is their wisdom to thosewho are coming up.
(17:59):
And the most important questionthey'll ask is this.
Wow, that sounds like a greatidea.
How are you managing your risk?
Mm-hmm.
Or I have seen this happen.
Do you have a plan B in case ithappens to you?
In other words, we have to havepeople in our lives who have
what I call grit.
They've been tested over thelong haul and the enemy of grit
(18:21):
is ease.
Here's a challenge.
Sometimes we've made it way tooeasy for the rising generations
and our children because wedon't want them to fail.
We don't want them to makemistakes.
And so they have never developedany grit.
Well, you take a look at many ofthese, of the senior generation
right now who have been throughthe eighties, let me tell you,
they've had grit.
Or grit is transferable.
(18:43):
Maybe they've lost a child ormaybe they've lost, maybe
they've had cancer.
See, grit is transferable, butit is learning how to work
through difficult times, whetherit be through resilience and
sacrifice, whether it be throughfaith and support.
But that senior generation, ifthey have made it this far, they
have that.
And that is much needed by therising generation.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
All right, Jolene, let's talk about fair and equal
and, and I have four kids of myown.
So I have, as I've raised kids,we've dealt with, you know what
is fair, but are they the samething when it comes to a family
farm?
Speaker 2 (19:18):
So let me take you to a couple questions.
I was asked last week, I was ata large dairy meeting and one of
the next generation said to me,you know, I've been working on
this dairy for 17 years.
Uh, my dad believes that fair isnot always equal, but mom
believes that equal is equal.
So if dad dies first am Iscrewed,
Speaker 1 (19:41):
Speaker 2 (19:42):
And then right after he left, here comes another one.
My sister and I have beenworking in this operation for a
lot of years.
And so we're wondering whyshould we bust our butt just so
our brothers and sisters can getrich?
Right?
So yes, fair and equal is thenumber one stumbling block.
I would call it an excuse of whypeople don't do what they need
to do.
So since I do so many mediainterviews, this is how I
(20:05):
explain the difference betweenfair and equal.
Here is equal.
Just picture this.
I have a beautiful apple pie.
It smells so good.
It's gonna taste so good.
And I could hardly wait to shareit.
And so I bring 1, 2, 3, 4 ofyou, all of you to the table.
And I have to cut that thing in90 degree angles.
Four dessert plates.
You each get one fourth of thepie that is equal.
(20:26):
Now here is fair, I have abeautiful apple pie.
Oh my gosh, it smells so good.
It's gonna taste so good.
And I could hardly wait to shareit.
And then I step back and I thinkabout the apples that went into
the pie.
And then I step back and think,gosh, who planted those trees?
Who watered those trees?
Who kept the disease in thefungus away?
Who nurtured those trees?
So that years down the roadthose buggers could finally
bloom.
(20:47):
And then I'm wondering whopicked the apples?
Who stored the apples?
Who marketed the apples?
So I could go to the store andbuy the apples and make you a
pie?
And now I bring 1, 2, 3, 4 ofyou to the table.
And I say, if you notice thepieces of the pie are not the
same size, but neither has beenthe investment into the making
of this pie.
(21:07):
Had these two not been here for20 and 18 years, this net worth
in this farm would have nevergrown.
I would've given up a long timeago with rules and regulations
and and having to deal withtechnology.
Had they not been here, the farmwould not have grown had they
not been here.
I couldn't come and go as theywant had they not been here.
This legacy that means so muchto me and hopefully to you could
(21:29):
be in the wrong hands.
And so that doesn't mean I haveforgotten you, but please
understand what they receivecomes with a great deal of risk.
Mm-hmm.
Now I will address the issue.
If they don't have anything toset aside, I try to encourage my
families to meet with each oftheir adult children separately.
(21:53):
Oh, that's good.
And I want them to ask, I wantthe adult generation to ask the
next generation some specificquestions.
Here's the first one.
You know, we're working on ourwills and our buy-sell agreement
for the business and we'rewondering do you have any
expectations for what is in ourwill and inheritance?
Do you have any expectations howit might affect you?
What you, and then the secondthing, is there something that
(22:14):
we currently own that means alot to you, that you would
really hope comes your way whensomething happens to dad and I
or mom and I And then I alwayssay, you know, the land and the
equipment, the farm has a lot ofvalue.
Mm-hmm.
equipment is not cash.
(22:34):
What it is is resources andtools.
So those who are farming cancontinue the business.
Right.
So how do you feel about thisbusiness continuing and how do
you feel about, we've got theright people doing it cuz these
people have worked here a longtime.
Mm-hmm.
We call them really worthyemployees who've earned the
(22:55):
right for management andleadership and ownership along
the way.
Then when you, that doesn't meanthe people you're talking to
have any right.
In your final decision, it justmeans you've heard their
perspective.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
But if they don't hear it fromyou, then there will be fighting
on the way to the funeral homeand the will will be contested
(23:17):
and you're gonna break up thefamily.
So I'm, I'm very clear that wemake sure that if you want the
business to continue, there areterms mm-hmm
which it can continue becauseyou're also gonna say to the
other siblings who are not inthe business and those who are
in the business will bepurchasing from us and that will
(23:37):
be our retirement.
Mm-hmm.
And so they are funding what itis we're going to be living on
as well as what we have setaside for that.
But they are continuing notgetting this freehand, they're
continuing this with obligationsas well.
It's all spelled out Now whenwe're all together, here's what
we're gonna do.
I had our attorney write a copyof my will in plain English
(23:58):
Cause he can add all the wheretwo, four and their As is later.
Yeah.
I have a copy of the buy sellagreement of the terms of
transitioning assets of the farmbusiness.
I'm going to go through thosewith e with all of us together.
And then each of you take acopy.
You grew up in this big oldhouse.
You come on back and tell me oneat a time what it is you're
thinking and then you go to theattorney and get it legal, what
(24:20):
you need to do.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
That's great wisdom.
Yeah.
That's very good stuff.
I think I already know theanswer to this next question,
but uh, let me ask it anyway.
Does a genetic relationshipequal a good working
relationship?
Speaker 2 (24:36):
Duh.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
Speaker 2 (24:39):
Just because you're born to someone and raised, does
it mean you can and should beworking together?
Now let's go back to thepremise.
Being a business first family,it does not demean the family.
Here's what it means.
I believe that acceptance in afamily is unconditional.
Right?
If I have a son or daughter, Ihave a joyful job.
(25:00):
I get to love them, I get tolead them, I get to help them
grow and I must let them go.
What I believe in a businessfirst family is acceptance and a
business is conditional and itis not a birthright.
Mm-hmm
questions that must be answeredby the next generation before
you should even be invited to bepart of a family business.
(25:22):
Then when I was down in Oklahomaworking at the land grant
university, juniors and seniorsin farm and ranch management,
one of the juniors came up to meand said, you know Jolene, when
I graduate I'm going back to theranch.
I said, have you been invited
Just cuz you want to doesn'tmean you get to, we're not
bringing in kids.
Now let me, let me just bring upone major problem that I see
happening more so in the last 10years, we are so eager to have
(25:45):
next generations join us in thebusiness.
Mm-hmm.
And so the senior generationsays, oh my gosh, we've gotta
rent more land.
Oh my gosh, we gotta have biggerand more equipment mm-hmm.
And they keep the debt and allof a sudden the whole thing goes
down the tube because we havenot done what I call the
probationary period to make surethat we can work well together.
You must meet thoserequirements.
(26:06):
They're based on 30 years ofsitting at kitchen tables and
once they meet those, we have amuch higher chance to success.
Do you wanna hear what they are?
Yes.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
Yeah.
Share those with me please.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
Okay.
Very quickly, if you wanna workhere, what do you bring?
Mm-hmm.
to the business.
Right.
Second, do we even need you?
Just cuz we're really good atit.
Does it mean that we needanother person or we need those
skills, right?
So are we gonna change thebusiness?
You know, is we going to supporta different type of business?
(26:36):
And then the next one is, sowhat does it cost?
Everybody comes with theirhandout.
Mm-hmm.
paycheck.
Right.
They'd like health insurance,maybe dental and optical.
They wanna pickup to drive withall the fuel.
They'd like the farm to pay fortheir smartphone and their iPad.
They'd like the farm to givethem a house to live in rent
free and pay for all theutilities.
Mm-hmm.
And we're often butting up to$90,000 and sometimes they think
(26:59):
so little is so little, but weare talking compensation
package, not just salary.
What does it cost?
Then the next one is veryimportant and oh, they just,
they just don't like this one.
Yeah.
I want the next generation towork for a non-family boss for
two to three years.
There are so many lessons.
Actually there's about 30lessons you learn when you have
(27:21):
a non-family boss.
Mm-hmm.
I know you need them back on thefarm and I know they wanna come
back to the farm, but they comeback at a whole different level.
They have understood that if you, they come home and get treated
like dirt, they don't have tostay there.
They can work elsewhere.
Right.
They learn that sometimes thingsaren't so bad at home.
Yes.
They learn that respect isearned, that you must be hired
(27:43):
and you can be fired and you'reaccountable.
You have to show up at time.
There's so, so many lessons youlearn.
I want them to have a non-familyboss for two to three
consecutive views.
This is not internships, this iswhere you've worked for somebody
else.
You've had good performancereviews or promotion.
Mm-hmm.
And then I always ask two morequestions for the next
generation.
I want to know, are you stillliving at home and is your
(28:06):
mother still doing your laundry
Speaker 1 (28:07):
And what does that tell you?
Speaker 2 (28:10):
Emotional intelligence.
Oh yeah.
If you're still living at homeand mama's still doing your
laundry, you're still mommy anddaddy's little girl and boy and
they're still your mommy anddaddy.
Again, please don't have parentsbringing the kids.
I want them bringing in worthyemployees.
And I need to add one more thingabout a family business.
It is not a place torehabilitate a family member.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
Oh, that's
Speaker 2 (28:31):
Good.
Right.
That there's somebody in yourfamily who's angry or addicted
or arrogant.
Mm-hmm.
Don't hire them, nobody elsewould.
Yeah.
Why do you give'em a paycheck sothey can keep acting that way?
So I'm at another meeting andI've known the president of the
association and his wife, they'dbeen in some of my leadership
training classes and they askedme to speak at their banquet of
(28:51):
their group.
So we're, I'm at their table andwe're visiting and dad said, oh,
Jolene, we bit the bullet.
We finally brought our son intothe business.
Great dad.
How's that working for you?
Mm.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
That's
Speaker 2 (29:02):
What's going on.
He just doesn't have the workethic that we need.
Mm-hmm.
it is.
He's just plain lazy.
Oh.
I said to dad, how long has hebeen working for you?
Well, about a year and a half.
Hmm.
Have you been paying him?
Mom says, Hey, listen up, I'mthe bookkeeper.
He gets paid big bucks.
He even has more fringe benefitsthan we do.
(29:24):
And then I asked dad theimportant question, so Dad, why
exactly did you hire thisemployee?
And he said, well, he couldn'tkeep a job anyplace else.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
Well, lazy here.
Lazy there.
Right.
So be very careful when youtreat things as a business, then
you can love them.
You can give them resources,they can improve themselves,
they can go elsewhere, butthey're not working in the
business.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
Sure, yes.
That's great wisdom.
But yeah, I see it.
That's very difficult to applyand uh, pull off.
And as much you've given us somany great steps here for
families, but here's what comesinto my mind.
What percentage of the familiesthat you work with actually
(30:10):
follow through with this entireprocess?
Do most of'em do it or is theresome that are like, eh, that's
just, that sounds kind of hardso we're just gonna, you know,
or maybe one spouse, um, of thesenior generation says, no,
we're not gonna do that.
You know, I'm gonna always letour son have this position.
How, how many of'em actuallyfollow through and do what you
(30:32):
say?
Take your advice.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
When we started this podcast, I said I'm very picky
who I work with mm-hmm.
entitlement uhhuh Or laziness orignorance they don't want to
improve their intelligence on.
Right.
I don't work with them.
So I have a very high successrate.
(30:57):
And I'm gonna tell yousomething.
When I, when I do familybusiness workshops and I, they
give me a full day, I will dothe entire morning and then
after lunch we will do a panelof key advisors.
I want them to see what anattorney, an accountant and a
financial planner.
And I always act as a familybusiness coach.
Mm-hmm.
at heart and we answerquestions.
But the last thing, I neverleave them without
(31:20):
accountability.
I don't want them going homeoverwhelmed, but I wanna know
who is going to continue thisprocess, write the name mm-hmm.
somebody who's not here?
And they'd love to do that.
Yeah.
Because I always ask them thisquestion to end.
If you have seven birds sittingon an electrical wire, seven
birds, and you answer this Dan,seven birds on the wire and 40
(31:42):
decide to fly away, how many areleft?
Speaker 1 (31:44):
Yeah.
You have three.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
Well, who knows, just because you decide to do
something doesn't mean you didit.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
Oh, good point.
I see
Speaker 2 (31:51):
People will make decisions, but it is the follow
through.
And one of one of my topics iscalled if we huff and puff, we
blow your house down.
Guess it's based on the thirdpig of the three little pigs who
did it, right?
Mm-hmm.
used mortar to hold it together.
Well, your mortar is yourattorney, your accountant, your
(32:12):
financial planner and yourfamily business coach.
Mm-hmm.
But there are tools that theycan do and they, it it's usually
a five to seven year process toget these bricks in place.
Some people are so ready orsometimes it's a health issue,
And all of a sudden they have tobuild a house very quick and
they try to build it a bricksand straw and it falls over.
(32:34):
It requires intentional purposeand giving dignity to the fact
that you are people who do allof the work.
Mm-hmm.
And because you respectyourself, you want to do it
right.
Yeah.
And so you do put those bricksin
Speaker 1 (32:49):
Place.
Yeah.
Five to seven years.
Wow.
That, that's really,
Speaker 2 (32:52):
That's a minimum.
But well think about the hardassets here.
Mm-hmm.
years or 15 years to a contract.
Right.
Or it might be contract fordeed.
Mm-hmm.
gosh, oh my gosh, I almostforgot to say this.
It's so important.
I want them to keep theiroperations in its own entity.
(33:13):
This is anything moveable cropsand critter people and
machinery.
And I want land in its ownentity.
Now land is often the securityof the senior generation.
Mm-hmm.
So the land entity, theoperations, rents from the
owners.
Mm-hmm.
rent to somebody else.
(33:33):
You know, so they always havethat security, but then they're
must be, anytime you form astructure like a partnership,
flp llc, CRS Corp, you must havea separate document called an
exit strategy or a buy sellagreement that trumps a will.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
Hmm.
Okay.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
Wills are changed on a whim.
As long as somebody is deemed tobe of sound mind, they can
change their will.
And so this buy-sell agreementhas terms for death and
disability and divorce anddisaster and disillusionment.
I wanna quit.
Give me my money.
I wanna get it now.
You know, and if you ever go, oh, you're gonna love this.
(34:12):
If you ever go to an attorneyand they help you develop a, um,
a structure like an LLC or acorporation, and the same day
you sign those papers, if you'renot signing a buy sell
agreement, I want you to takethat attorney and hang them up
by the balls or boobs.
I don't care what suck they arecuz they did you a disservice.
Yes.
You don't create a structurewithout a way to end it and
(34:32):
without a way to transitionassets within it.
Now many people think that thereare three sentences in their
legal documents.
The organizational or bylaws orarticles cover it.
No, no, no.
This is a separate document.
There's actually seven differentparts to a buy sell agreement
that must be in.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
So this is protection then for, for everyone.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
It, it allows the business to continue.
It assures income if that seniorgeneration is depending on farm
income for their retirementneeds or for the goals they have
as they transition in otherparts of their life.
But it allows the business tocontinue and it creates terms of
which it can continue.
It doesn't say everything isgifted.
(35:12):
Uh, there may be neededcompensation for sweat equity,
which is done every year, not atthe time of death.
There may be inheritance thatcomes that way.
But if we're purchasing, theseare the terms of which it is to
be done.
I
Speaker 1 (35:24):
See.
Yeah.
I see.
So let's switch gears and gokind of a different route.
As many of our listeners know,Topcon is in the technology
business.
So one of the huge upsides ofprecision agriculture is the
ability to track costs and datato help farmers make wise
decisions.
So Jolene, how can thisinformation be useful in a
(35:50):
transition plan to being able tolook at the data from yield to
be able to look at the, the, thedata of, of what the field is
actually telling you the aagronomic data does, does it
help in this process?
Speaker 2 (36:05):
Well it's certainly teaching the skills mm-hmm.
Results.
Speaker 1 (36:10):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (36:11):
So we need the same thing when it comes to a family
business.
We need details, accountability,and results.
So we have to start withfinances.
I need them accurate, I needthem timely, and I need them
transparent.
That requires details.
Now technology is something Iwill tell you, I, I'm glad to,
um, pass that along to the nextgeneration in her
(36:31):
I don't wanna have to deal withthat stuff.
Right.
But I am very interested in theresults and I better know how
they got the results.
But would you please do thatwork?
I don't want, again, productionto be your excuse for not doing
the human side of what needs tobe done.
Right.
And yet I am just like everybodyon this podcast.
The more I have to deal withpeople, the more I like cows.
(36:51):
Because if I don't like that obitty, I'm gonna send her to
market
But you can't do that with momsor dads or sisters or brothers.
Right.
And yet communication is thebloodstream of the business.
Communication requires insight,documentation, and details.
Technology is certainly a partof that.
And then the details that youare helping people gather and
collect and analyze certainlybecomes a part of the appraised
(37:14):
value.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
It is increasing productivityand profitability.
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
That's great.
That's good answers and, andhelpful to know what, what are
some of the risks involved whena transition plan is not in
writing.
What if they don't sit down anddo all this work, but it's what
if it's just in grandpa's head?
What are the risks?
Speaker 2 (37:39):
Well, I will tell you this.
A conversation's not a contract.
And if it's not in writing, itdoes not exist.
Mm.
Here are the, and, and people infamily business lie.
They do Now they may not meanto, but they will say the same
thing over and over again anddon't do the work to assure it
will happen.
They say things like, work hardsomeday this will all be yours.
Or you know, yeah, I'm gonnaretire.
(38:01):
And then there's that dreaded,oh, you don't have to worry
about your brothers and sisters.
They've got their jobs.
They're not interested in thebusiness.
Now that's true.
Until you're dead theneverybody's very interested in
the assets of the business.
So you need to understand, youmust have things clarified and
in writing and discussed Onemore thing.
It must be revised.
(38:22):
I sat with a family and mom,well I, I finally said to mom
and dad, you know, do you haveyour wills on hand?
It would be really helpful if Icould see actually what is in
your will.
I'm not an attorney but there'ssomething I'm looking for.
And the dust starts to fly andthey bring them out.
They had guardians for theirchildren and their childrens
were in their forties.
I said, don't you think youmight need to revise the wheel
Speaker 1 (38:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
So we need legal discussed.
Discussed is key revised.
I want an estate plan.
Those, that's the transitionplan we talked about.
Yeah.
I want an ownership andmanagement transfer plan and I
wanna buy sell
Speaker 1 (38:56):
Agreement.
So what I hear you saying is forI'm most all families, I would
say they need to bring in someprofessionals to help them in
this transition.
This is not something they'regoing to just be, there's work
that to be done, but they'vegotta have some outside help to
come in and make it legal forthe business.
Correct.
Speaker 2 (39:14):
Yes.
You know, do the best of whatyou can and what you know.
But when you're talking laws andestate tax and you're talking
transition and, um, buy sales,those are all legal and
financial intelligent documents.
Mm-hmm.
And so I always encourage myfamilies, cuz we do a lot of
work to get them ready to gothere so that then they go, we
(39:36):
don't waste time and a lot ofmoney.
Uh, I say, you know, let themknow this is what you want.
This is what you have.
Mm-hmm.
owe.
Here's my current documents thatI have in place, but you're the
expert here.
What am I missing?
Mm-hmm.
that might be more beneficial?
Would you please give me twooptions for me to choose from?
(39:58):
Because they have worked withhundreds of people in very
similar situation.
Laws have changed and there areoptions out there.
So we very much need to havethese advisors to make things
legal because when I said thingsin writing, some things have to
be notarized and signed andfiled and documented.
We have to make sure that themoney, the taxes are paid.
We have to understand stepped upbasis and capital gains.
(40:21):
There's all kinds of things.
But when I, when I haveworkshops and I'm including an
attorney, an accountant,financial planner, I hear them
say some because the lastquestion I ask them is, what do
these people do that drives youabsolutely nuts.
Mm-hmm.
And the attorney will say, well,you want me to write?
You will.
So everybody will get along andthe accountant says, oh, we
(40:42):
weren't gonna pay a darn thingto the government.
How do we save taxes?
And the financial planner says,you wanna know how long you're
gonna live.
Do you have enough money to getthere?
Well, all of those areunrealistic expectations, but
let me tell you how you can getclarity, peace of mind.
Because the number one thing Ihear after I'd finished my
workshops is this, you've beensleeping under my bed.
(41:03):
I told'em it was highlyentertaining.
You see all of these situations,we, IM personalize.
They think they're ours and itcan never happen to anybody
else.
Mm-hmm.
And yet there's a lot of lessonswe can learn from others that
will give us that peace of mind.
And I can, I want us to sittogether happily at a holiday
table.
Right.
That only happens when you treatit as a business.
Speaker 1 (41:24):
Yeah.
All right.
One, one more question for you.
Uh, you've written and talkedabout honoring the family, but
you must do the business.
Right.
Tell us, just to wrap things up,what does that mean to do the
business?
Right.
Speaker 2 (41:40):
Silence is the greatest destroyer of a family
and a family business.
This means communication.
Mm-hmm.
time of year, who's gonna dowhat do you have, what you need?
Let's get to work.
Whether it's that monthlymanagement meeting with a
planned agenda where you have anoutline in your shop and people
circle things that need to bebrought up.
(42:01):
Nothing circled, don't meet,only discuss the things that are
circled.
You don't waste time, whetherit's that annual meeting, uh,
that you need to have to informpeople, bring people up to
speed.
Uh, what do in-laws and, andyour advisors need to know.
That is the type ofcommunication that we're after.
But part of that communicationis hampered because we keep it
(42:22):
to ourselves.
And I had a family say to me,Jolene, would you go talk to
Grandma
Grandma is in her eighties.
She owns 100% of the land.
We don't even know what's in herwill.
And we've been running thisbusiness for lots of years.
Yeah.
Would you talk to grandma?
And I said, does Grandma wannatalk to me?
And they said she does.
Yeah.
So I went to the nursing homeand I talked to grandma and she
(42:45):
said to me, you know, Jolene,I'm not gonna tell any of my
kids what's in my will becauseright now they all come to see
me.
Speaker 1 (42:52):
Oh, whoops.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (42:56):
But she, she told me what's in her will, she's gonna
break up the family, they'regonna lose the business.
Wow.
Now I cannot go back and tellthe family what she said, but I
did go back and say, you allbetter have a plan B,
Speaker 1 (43:07):
Uhhuh,
Yeah.
Wow.
Speaker 2 (43:08):
So the first thing is make sure communication.
The second thing is make theintentional choice to operate as
a business so you can still befamily.
The third is get things inwriting, legal, documented, make
sure it's financially strong.
Speaker 1 (43:24):
Yeah.
Because if it's not in writing,you're saying it doesn't exist.
So.
Wow.
Speaker 2 (43:28):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (43:29):
Jolene, I can't thank you enough for joining us today
and sharing your wisdom and yourexperience to help farm families
on this very difficult topic.
Speaker 2 (43:38):
I love what I do, and I have been so blessed to see
the benefits of people whoactually not just decide to do
it, but they actually, the birdsgo and they do it
Speaker 1 (43:49):
To learn more.
I encourage all of our listenersto visit jolene brown.com where
you'll find lots of helpfulcontent on agriculture life and
help for farming families.
Farm transitions for familiesdeserve time and attention.
It takes wisdom and it takesthoughtfulness and even
assistance from professionals.
But it's very important tohandle this part of the business
(44:11):
Well, and I wanna thank each ofour listeners for tuning in
today.
Topcon appreciates all of ourfarmers who work so tirelessly
to put food on the tables.
You guys rock.
We love you.
If you enjoyed today's episode,remember to like, share,
subscribe to Topcon TalksAgriculture on Spotify, apple
(44:31):
Podcasts, Amazon music, orwherever you get your podcasts.
We'll see you next time.
Go out and make it a great day.
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