April 27, 2023 • 40 mins
Michele Payn, one of the world’s leading food science experts, is trying to stop the global food fight. She discusses industry topics like food bullying and food misrepresentation and explores facts around controversial GMOs, organics, pesticides, and antibiotics. Discover how agriculture and science work to impact consumer trust.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:12):
Hello, and welcome to the Topcon Talks Agriculture
podcast.
On each episode, we discuss andshare topics that are important
to farmers, growers, andagribusiness.
And man, do we have an awesometopic and special guest for
today's episode.
My name is Dan Hendricks, and Iam your host for today.
I serve as the Senior BusinessDevelopment manager for Topcon
(00:35):
Agriculture, and I get to workwith an amazing group of
talented people who loveagriculture.
They enjoy technology, and theystrive to help farmers and
growers find solutions.
In today's podcast, we are goingto try to clear up some
confusion.
It's our goal to fact check someof the misinformation that we
read, that we see, and that wehear about our food.
(00:58):
We are going to discuss thetruth today about what's really
in our food and what we shouldand shouldn't be concerned about
when it comes to the things thatwe eat.
This episode topic came aboutfrom a discussion that, uh, we
had a couple of weeks ago withsome of my top con team members,
and we were talking about howmuch misinformation and
(01:19):
manipulation happens when itcomes to our food.
As an example, one foodfranchise tells us that their
food is clean, but then whatexactly does clean food mean?
Another brand claims that theyuse only all natural
ingredients, but how do youdefine all natural?
At the grocery store, we seeorganic or fat free, or it helps
(01:42):
heart health or it's gluten free, or it contains real fruit
juice or free range poultry, andit goes on and on and on.
But there's a lot of confusionabout what those terms mean and
the all of the terms are justcrazy and kind of out of
control.
And with full disclosure, let,let, let me tell you, here's my
(02:02):
rub with all of this confusion.
I believe it causes a lot ofunfortunate and misguided
distrust for agriculture and forthe farmers and ranchers who
work so hard to put food on ourtable.
So, in an effort to shed somelight and understanding on this
topic and find out the truthbehind our food, we have invited
author and food marketing expertMichelle Payne to join us.
(02:25):
Michelle is one of the leadingexperts in the US connecting
farm and food in 2001, shefounded the company Cause
Matters that exist to createconnections around the food
plate.
Her work and books focus onaddressing food myths,
developing sciencecommunication, and connecting
food to farm.
She is an internationalaward-winning author.
(02:47):
Her latest book entitled FoodBullying, how to Avoid Buying Bs
has won several awards, and shehas developed the Food Bullying
podcast to help peopleunderstand the main reason that
food should be about comfort andcelebration.
So, Michelle, welcome to theTopcon Podcast.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Hey, thanks for having me.
I am excited to be here.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Uh, well, we are thrilled to have you and, uh, we
just hope to glean some insightfrom you over these next 30
minutes.
So l let me start out by askingto tell us a little bit more
about your personal backgroundand what is your connection to
agriculture?
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Sure.
Well, I was born intoagriculture and have a lifelong
love affair with beautiful blackand white Holstein cows.
I grew up on a dairy farm insouthern Michigan, and, um,
learned most of my life lessonsthere.
Graduated from Michigan StateUniversity, go green to any
Spartans that are listening, Ihave to get that plug in there.
And, um, actually startedworking, uh, believe it or not,
(03:47):
selling semen and embryosinternationally, which is makes
for fascinating airplaneconversations.
Let me just leave it at that.
And then, um, went on to workfor the national F F A
Foundation, uh, to be able toraise a whole lot of money for
an organization that had asignificant impact on my life.
Had a short stint in e-businessand then decided to start my own
(04:10):
business as a professionalspeaker.
I never really believed that Iwould be an author, but, uh,
found myself writing my firstbook in 2013 and really what my
connection has been to helpthose in agriculture have the
tough conversations.
Uh, back when I started in 2001,I had to convince a whole lot of
people that advocacy was anissue that people didn't know,
(04:33):
they didn't trust, and theydidn't understand agriculture.
I no longer have to convincepeople of that problem.
Um, and throughout the, theyears, my, my topics have
evolved into working withdieticians and those in
nutrition, nutrition side of thebusiness.
Uh, my food bullying, uh,podcast is actually co-hosted by
a dietician and we specificallyfocus on some farm stories to
(04:55):
help those who prioritizenutrition.
And then, um, I also have, uh,evolved in the last couple of
years to include, uh, helpingpeople have the tough
conversations about stress andmental wellness and agriculture.
I think we all know that we havea problem on our hands that we
need to better handle stress.
So that's kind of in a nutshell.
(05:16):
I still own registered holing,uh, cattle today.
They're running around my frontyard, hopefully behind a fence.
My daughter and I greatly enjoyshowing them.
And I live, uh, west in westcentral Indiana on a small farm
and, and, and travel the worldto be able to serve farmers and
others are on the plate.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
Yeah.
Tell me a little bit more about,you don't have to talk people
into the importance of advisadvocacy now.
What, what do you exactly meanby that?
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Well, when you think of the case studies of what has
happened in agriculture and thelost practices, the lost
products that we could no longeruse, R B S T gestation stalls,
cage-free.
Um, you look at chemicals thatcan no longer be used.
The reality is is that the 98.5%of the population that's not on
a farmer ranch today doesn'tknow us.
(06:04):
They don't trust us.
And unfortunately, they're easyper easily persuaded, which is
why I wrote food bullying isbecause I saw a lot of brains
being manipulated around foodand how food is raised.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
And who is your typical audience of, for, for
your books or when you speak,are they producers, consumers,
educators, or,
Speaker 2 (06:22):
I work with all, I particularly love working with
farmers.
Um, I've had people tell me, uh,that they, they can see that I
know what they're thinkingextremely well and it makes them
very uncomfortable.
And honestly, I'm probably knownfor antagonizing farmers into
action because I can get awaywith it as one of them,
honestly.
And I do it out of love.
To be clear, it's not any illintention, but it is time that
(06:44):
we stand up and speak out.
We all know that we have issueswith people who don't understand
our business.
But I will also tell you that Iwork with dtic audiences.
Um, my three books are allheavily cited, in particular the
last two.
Uh, so food bullying and foodtruths from farm to table have
been used in dieteticcurriculum, which is a huge
honor to me.
(07:05):
Um, because it is something thatallows me to take the producer
voice, to take the farmer voice,to take the veterinarian voice
into the community of the peoplethat are, are helping others
choose their nutrition.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
Yeah.
And what has maintained yourinterest in food science after
all this time?
Speaker 2 (07:24):
Uh, well, the, my interest is probably more in the
production of food than it is infood science.
I love science to be clear.
Um, but food science is a, apretty hardcore discipline.
It's pretty easy for me.
I love agriculture.
I love the people ofagriculture, and I strongly
believe that we have to do moreto speak out and connect on a
(07:45):
human level with the people thataren't on a farm or ranch, and
we need to do so proactively.
Um, and the other piece of itis, is trying to take a look at
some of the, the world problemsthat we have, food insecurity,
um, suicide rates inagriculture, looking at
sustainability and looking atsome of the, the big picture
problems.
That's really kind of what keepsme up at night.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Now you're known for connecting people to food and
agriculture and the, the thingsthat we eat through your books
and your podcast and speaking.
But, but break that down.
What does that exactly mean?
I mean, for the person out therethat is just listening and, and
trying to understand that, canyou put it in just real simple
terms for us?
Speaker 2 (08:26):
Sure.
If you're driving around at atractor, do you know how to go
talk to a person who's shoppingat Whole Foods?
Uh, probably not.
And what I try to challengepeople to do on both sides of
the plate is to be able toconnect on a human level.
So we, in agriculture, we loveour technology, right?
I mean, especially at yourcompany.
(08:47):
We, we love data, we lovescience.
Um, Illinois Farm Families did astudy, uh, several years ago now
that showed that people, peopletrust farmers but they don't
trust farming.
And when you think about that,and the people of agriculture I
see in my audience is reallystruggle with that.
One is about the people, thehumans.
(09:08):
So they trust the people, butthey don't trust the process
because they don't know theprocess.
They won't trust the process,and they won't, um, be able to
understand what we're doingunless we are able to
communicate more effectivelywith them.
And that involves connecting atan emotional level.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
And would you say that for most farmers they have
trouble like separating thosetwo between farming and the
process?
Cuz to them it's kind of one andthe same?
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Yeah.
So this gets into one of thereasons why I believe, and I've
observed that we have a mentalhealth problem in agriculture.
Um, many farmers believe thatthey were created as a farmer.
And, uh, I will argue all daylong that you were created as a
human being first.
And unfortunately, when peoplelose their businesses, when they
(10:02):
lose their farms, their identityis so closely tied to that, it
becomes a real issue.
Um, and I understand that myparents actually lost our farm
to bankruptcy several years agonow.
So I understand the pain that'sassociated with that.
But when it comes to connectingwith others who aren't out there
driving a tractor, who don't ownan agribusiness, who don't
(10:24):
understand the trials andtribulations of what it takes to
milk cows or grow cattle or, uh,get that fuel of weed or corn
off, um, we have to be able toconnect with them as a human
first and be able to relate tothem, whether it's about the
badgers versus the Spartans, uh,whether it's about the art or
(10:46):
whether it's about hunting orexercising or being a father or
an uncle or a mom.
Um, it, I always try toencourage people of agriculture
to relate to the rest of theworld as humans first.
And that will give you thepermission to talk about the
process and the products andsome of the things that you want
(11:07):
to talk about.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
That's a fascinating perspective.
Um, so tell me about your latestbook Food Bullying.
Wh where did that title comefrom,
Speaker 2 (11:18):
?
Well, it came from a personwho's really sick of claims,
like clean food that you hadsaid.
I always wanna ask, um, Panera,if they washed their food, if
they washed their hands, what,what exactly that means.
And I actually use that as anexample in food bullying.
So food today is a 9 trillionbusiness that includes all of us
(11:41):
in agriculture.
Um, when I wrote food bullyingwas a 5.75 trillion business.
So we looked at what, 15%inflation in food last year, 10%
expected this year.
Those are some crazy numbers,but what an opportunity for us
to be able to illustrate topeople, um, that we are trying
to do the right thing in raisingfood and keeping those costs
(12:05):
down.
So food bullying really is alook at how brains are
manipulated.
And, and you had alluded to theStan, people feel confused, they
feel guilty about food, and Icontend that food is first about
nourishment.
Um, and then it's aboutcelebration and tradition.
I mean, think about how manymemories you have around your
family's food table and howspecial those are.
(12:29):
And so I really wrote foodbullying to try to remove the
guilt and to share real lifefarm stories, stories from
veterinarian stories, um, fromdieticians, those with firsthand
expertise and food, nutrition,farming, ranching, agriculture,
uh, so that we could get sometruth out there about what is
(12:50):
happening in the way food israised today.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
So how would you say that we can build food trust
with consumers?
What are some of the practicalsteps?
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Uh, great question.
Easier, um, said than done insome cases.
But I will tell every listenerout there that you can make a
significant difference in thisbecause without fail, I've
actually had one client who I'vesent out, had, um, people go out
in their leadership class inIowa Farm Bureau for 20 years
(13:22):
now and interview non-agagriculture people in their
community.
And without fail, people willsay, well, I know you, and that
means that people who farm thisare okay, whether it's beef
farmer, whether it's, uh, beanfarmer, whatever it may be.
So the point here is, is thatyour personal story can actually
make a huge difference.
(13:43):
So taking the time to talk topeople when they have questions,
and rather than being defensiveand getting mad when the latest
crap comes out, aboutwhat's, what's wrong with
farming are the latest video.
I mean, we've all seen them.
And the reality is, is that wehave to be able to humanize
agriculture.
(14:03):
And that starts with havingconversations and it involves
biting your tongue when peoplesay things that you don't like.
Um, and it involves listening.
And one of the greatestchallenges is that I've had in
my career is to take my farm hatoff and to listen and learn, um,
from consumers who are radicallydifferent than me.
(14:27):
And those conversations arereally important.
So I, I would suggest on apractical level, have a
conversation.
Listen, learn.
And if you can't think ofanything else to say, ask the
person why do you feel that way?
And you might be surprised atwhat you learn.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
That's good.
So, so being less defensivewould be, uh, uh, yes.
A step.
Okay.
Very interesting.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
That would be fantastic.
So
Speaker 1 (14:54):
Why do you think there is this disconnect between
what you know to be true onfarms and farming and then maybe
in the, the general populationor the person that's at Whole
Foods that's buying, why isthere a disconnect?
Speaker 2 (15:11):
You know, when I wrote food bullying, um, I
developed a cycle of foodbullying, and it starts over at
nine o'clock with disconnect.
You know, we all know thatthere's only 1.5% of the
population that's on a farmerranch today.
Uh, so there's this disconnect.
And I think if we're all be, uh,honest, we probably would rather
deal with our land and ouranimals, then we would with
(15:31):
other human beings.
That's just a natural tendencyin agriculture.
No judgment.
Um, so there's this, yeah,there's this disconnect.
And interestingly enough, thiswas pre covid.
Um, my alma mater, MichiganState did a study that showed
that 75% of people had not meton a farmer ranch in the last
five years prior to the study.
And Michigan's an incrediblydiverse agriculture state if
(15:54):
you're not aware.
And I'm sure that number hasgone up significantly.
So if people aren't coming tothe farmer ranch and we're not
talking to them, this disconnectis going to, uh, grow.
And obviously the next one up,which is on at 12 o'clock on the
cycle is distrust.
Uh, you don't trust what youdon't know.
Uh, when you think about that,consider a salesperson or a
(16:18):
consultant that walks onto yourfarm and tells you that they
need to educate you withoutasking any questions.
That sometimes is what we inagriculture try to do with the
rest of the world.
So we need to understand thatthere's this disconnect with
this distrust, because again,they trust the people of
agriculture.
They don't necessarily trust theprocess.
(16:40):
And then after that, at threeo'clock comes fear, and the next
step is bullying.
Because with the fear that comesas natural distrust, there's
fear that they're not buying theright food for their family.
There's fear that farmers areabusing animals.
There's fear that, uh, farmersare pouring chemicals on the
(17:00):
land.
There's fear in the technologythat's being used to produce
food today.
And we approach it atagriculture from the farm
perspective.
Um, for example, we have theworld's safest, most abundant
food supply and trustinglyenough, uh, at least 40% of
Americans don't think it's ourresponsibility to feed the
world.
(17:22):
And for Canadian listeners, I'veseen parallel numbers in your
country as well.
So we have to try to step backand see what people are
thinking.
And so much of that isemotionally driven.
And that was one of the thingsthat I showcased in food
bullying.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
Michelle, here's what really ticks me off.
I question the motive of theterms that is used in food
marketing because I hate thedistrust that it breeds in
consumers towards agricultureand farmers.
Uh, just like you have said, um,I have a really good friend
who's been farming all of hislife and he was telling me that
he was in Colorado, uh, visitinghis family and he saw some
(18:04):
protestors and went up and foundout that they were protesting
against GMOs being unsafe.
And, uh, he, he said he, hetried to do what you said and
tried to humanize it, but hesaid he told the, the lady that
was standing there, the collegestudent with the sign, he said,
the food I raise on my farm isthe food that I feed to my wife
and to my kids and to mygrandkids.
(18:25):
And if for a second I believedit was unsafe, w why would I
feed it to them?
And he just said, you know,there was this little bit of
like, shell shock of, I've neverthought about that, so.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Well, that's good.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
Yes.
Yeah.
But so do you feel like, wheredoes this bullying come from?
Is it from the manufacturers,the, the, the restaurant
industry or the marketing ofthem?
Or like, why is the bullyinghappening and like, who's it
coming from?
Speaker 2 (18:55):
Well, it can come from all levels.
I mean, including farmers.
Let's, let's face it, if, if Iwas honest and I had to write
this in the book when I wrotethe book, cause I didn't wanna
be a hypocrite, I'm a foodbully.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
In what way?
Tell me what you mean by that.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
Number one, I'm a mom.
Every mom that I've ever met asa food bully in some way,
and I'm being facetious, I don'twanna insult anyone, but for
example, the what I put in thebook is my, my husband who does
not cook often, but he likes totease me that he would like to
cook corn beef hash.
And my immediate response is notin my kitchen.
I don't wanna smell that.
(19:28):
So that's a fun example.
And here's, here's the deal thatwe have to realize is not
everybody who is a bully intendsto be a bully.
One of the examples that I usedwas, uh, one of my dear friends
is in the fitness trainingbusiness.
And she attended a class wherethe woman who had no dietetic
background, no professional nunutri nutrition training and
(19:49):
certainly no training inagriculture, uh, the woman went
on to tell everyone about howexactly they should eat, which
included dairy-free, gluten-freevegan, so forth and so on, and
high pressure situation.
That's an example of an extremein-person bully.
There's bullies all overFacebook and I think we all know
that I would never recommendthat you use the hashtag GMO on
(20:12):
Twitter, for example, cuz you'llget the crazies that come out.
But there's also farmers who,who bully.
And this is where I wouldchallenge some thinking.
I have a friend Ryan Weeks, whofarms several thousand acres,
um, very progressive farmer inNebraska.
He transitioned over half of hisacres to organic.
And as a conent, he has beenostracized from the agriculture
(20:33):
community by and large, locallybecause he chose to farm
organically.
And to me it's about choice.
You know, food is a choice and,and farming is a choice.
So that, that's an example ofbullying that most people don't
necessarily like to hear about.
But it is the truth.
You know, I could also tell, behonest and tell you that I am a
(20:53):
complete bully when it comes tobreeding dairy cattle.
Cuz I will not have a red andwhite heifer on my farm.
I will not have anything butblack and white Holsteins and I
don't like little brown cows.
So.
But to get to the point of yourquestion about food packaging,
here's the deal.
Um, people don't understand, forexample, that milk is all
antibiotic free as a, if it issold as grade a milk in the
(21:16):
United States.
So they see, same with chicken,same with meat.
They see antibiotic free andthey think, oh, I need to avoid
the other meat becauseantibiotics are bad and they
don't realize the testing andthe protocols that are in place
to protect our food supply.
And we have to takeresponsibility for that because
(21:38):
that means that we haven'tcommunicated with them.
So,
Speaker 1 (21:42):
So it's, it's, it's kind of a twist.
I'm sorry to interrupt, but it'skind of a marketing play then it
Speaker 2 (21:48):
Kind a
Speaker 1 (21:48):
Twist in the marketing Yeah.
To get you to buy their productor think, well, of course it is.
Their product is superior.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
Yeah.
So in the book, one of the, um,personal highlights of the book,
um, for when I was writing foodbullying was, uh, uh, it was a
brand new study at the time fromDr.
Tyler Davis.
He was at Texas Tech,unfortunately he's now with
meta, but he's a neuroscientist.
And to be clear, my degrees arein animal science and
agriculture communications.
(22:15):
I am not a neuroscientist.
And I had to study the brain awhole lot to even be able to
explain this.
But what his study did is showedin the prefrontal cortex that
your, your brain basicallyreacts one of two ways, which we
all know fight or flight, right?
And so he studied people's, um,reaction, the prefrontal
cortex's reaction to modern day,uh, agriculture production
(22:38):
technology, including GMOs,hormones, antibiotics, uh,
sustainability and animalwelfare.
And what he found is that thebrain reacts positively.
It, it chills out innon-scientific te terms when it
comes to topics around animalwelfare, believe it or not, and
(22:59):
sustainability, which I knowsome people hate the term
sustainability, and you thinkclimate change is a farce.
But I would also challenge youto say that if people look at
agriculture as badsustainability actors, and we
have a lot of things taken awayin the future, we probably ought
to figure out how to talk aboutthat more.
But to get back to the study heused F M R I and basically
(23:22):
showed that the, the brain, um,and non-scientific terms kind of
freaked out about hormones,antibiotics, and GMOs, which is
not a surprise to any of us.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
So who would you say are the influencers to this
problem?
Speaker 2 (23:35):
?
Well, there are many, uh, socialmedia obviously.
Um, I think we have to lookacross and there's Dr.
Oz, there's Food Bay, there'slots of people.
Um, there's some that I followon Instagram that literally make
my brain below apart.
Um, I would also say thatdieticians and farmers are
(23:56):
influencers too.
Food, food processors, foodretailers, um, food service
companies, there's any number.
Um, the challenge that we haveto try to help people understand
is that the labels that are on apackage are kind of like
lipstick on a pig.
Um, you, you can put as muchlipstick as you want on the pig,
(24:19):
but at the end of the day, it'sstill a pig.
And I went through severalhundred pages of, um, label
requirements in labels and soforth.
When I wrote food bullying, Icovered them all in I think
chapter 13 of the book.
But it's all in one chapter.
There are far fewer labels thatare measured and meaningful, um,
(24:39):
that are truly defined, andtherefore they have distinction.
There's far fewer of thoselabels than what many people
realize.
Sustainable is not a label thatis anything but bullying because
it's not measurable.
Um, farm raised is a label thatkind of makes my brain explode.
I don't know how you feel aboutthat, Dan, but it makes me
really angry,
Speaker 1 (25:00):
Right?
It's just, it's completelyvague,
Speaker 2 (25:03):
Right?
And it, it's not measured, it'snot defined.
Non G M O is a paid to playlabel.
If you're not aware, there'sonly about a dozen food, um,
that that actually can begenetically modified.
And so companies are paying asignificant amount of money to
have that non G M O labelslapped on.
And to me that's an ethical, I'msorry, but if there's not an, if
(25:25):
there's not a pepper out therethat's a gmo, you shouldn't have
a non GMO label on that.
Um, whole grains is actuallyone, the whole grains label is a
positive example that isdefined.
It is measured, it ismeaningful.
So we've got some majorchallenges when you look at the
influences because it's not justsocial media, it's also
(25:46):
people's, again, disconnect fromagriculture and the confusion
and the mess that we havehappening on the front of food
packages.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
So if I am a farmer operator listening to this
podcast that owns and operatessome kind of farm, and I'm in
agriculture, what would you sayto me that I could do to help
this problem?
What are some practical thingsthat I could do to like say, you
(26:17):
know, make a difference,
Speaker 2 (26:20):
Uh, engage in conversation in a human personal
emotional way?
Uh, psychology clearly provesthat if people have that trust
connection, um, that you'regoing to have a more positive
conversation.
So for some of your listeners,that means posting photos on
Instagram about the upcomingplanting season or harvesting,
(26:41):
whatever it may be, calving, um,posting some photos and
providing some context to why wedo what we do in agriculture.
Uh, for other listeners, thatmeans that in your church
parking lot, talking about whatyou're doing in the field and,
and if you plant G M O corn, whyyou plant G M O corn and why it
actually, um, can save you, uh,from fuel, um, from chemical
(27:04):
usage and, and so forth.
If you're in a grocery store,taking the time to pause and try
to have a conversation, not insome weird way, but to have a
conversation with people, um,that are trying to figure out
what to buy in their food.
And one of the fun things that Ialways have people do that I've
gotten some interesting feedbackfrom is, at your next major
(27:27):
family gathering, ask yourextended family members how they
feel about today's farming.
And then promise me you won'tthrow food at them
Speaker 1 (27:37):
because you
think they're, most of their
answers are gonna be verynegative.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
Well, not necessarily negative, but I have had people
over the years completelyshocked by, um, their siblings,
their cousins, their aunts,their uncles, their grandkids
that grew up on farms that don'tunderstand they, so you think
about it, the brain isconstantly exposed to, we have
what, 10,000 messages flying atus every day.
(28:04):
So you see non gmo, you see nongmo, you hear an article, oh
what farmers are doing weirdthings with your food?
Oh, maybe we shouldn't trustthis.
So it's a natural humanresponse.
Um, and before you think thatI'm completely slamming GMOs,
what's been really exciting forme is I never thought the
pendulum would swing, um, onbiotech, but it absolutely has.
(28:28):
Cuz we've actually seen, um,cargo here change some of their
plants from non GMO to acceptingall sorts of grains.
Now we've seen some movement inEurope and people finally are
starting to realize that geneticmodification, whether it's
CRISPR biotechnology or whateverit may be, just breeding good
cattle, that that can actuallyhelp you save on some food costs
(28:51):
, which we all need to do today.
Um, so there's, there's beensome really positive movement
and I think that the morefarmers that we have just out
there having a conversation, andagain, please don't dump data
and puke science on people'sshoes.
Try your best to connect withthem on an emotional level.
And you might be surprised atwhere you get,
Speaker 1 (29:11):
If, if I throw out some terms that I, that we would
say are scary terms, can youhelp me like you explain really
quickly what these thingsactually mean and why or why are
, why or why not, we should bescared of them.
Like with G gmo, how would youdefine that?
If someone's listening andthey're like, I hear that I, but
I don't know what that means.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
Yep.
Quick answer on that is to lookup the be label, which stands
for bio-engineered, which was alabel that was supposed to be
required starting in 2022.
I think it, it was delayedbecause of covid.
Um, genetic modification isextremely difficult to explain
in a society where two-thirds ofpeople don't understand that
their food has d n A in it.
I mean, I want you to thinkabout that.
(29:54):
That's a serious st.
Statistics.
So
Speaker 1 (29:58):
What about the term organic?
Speaker 2 (30:00):
Uh, so organic is a farming choice and it's, uh, one
that many I'm sure probablydon't necessarily like to hear,
but it is monitored and measuredby the U S D A.
The U S D A organic seal is a,um, again, meaningful label
because it is defined clearlyand it is monitored and
measured.
The way I look at it is afarming choice.
(30:22):
It's not necessarily morenutritious, but it is a choice
for some producers to
Speaker 1 (30:27):
Make.
Okay, thank you for that.
Now, when someone sayspesticides, what does that mean?
Speaker 2 (30:34):
Yes, so pesticides are really interesting cuz
obviously it's a huge class ofproducts.
So we, you have to know that itinvolves fungus to treat, to
create, to treat fruits andveggies.
It involves, um, insecticides tokill all the nasty little bugs.
It includes herbicides to killweeds.
I just sprayed some on my yardyesterday.
And the way that I try to get,uh, people outside of
agriculture understand whatpesticides are is to talk about
(30:57):
aphids on their tomato plantthat they have on their patio or
, uh, how they treat theirroses.
And usually they can identifythat there's nasty little bugs
that they have to put things on.
And so I just explained to themthe same thing has to happen,
um, in a field.
And rather than getting in thestatistics of the overuse of
what's happening withfertilization and yards versus
(31:19):
farms, because that's fairlyaccusatory, I just try to help
them understand that where foodgrows, bugs go, and that bug can
be a mold, it can be an actualinsect, it can be a weed and
such.
Um, they don't have perspectiveif they've never walked a field
of exactly all the nasties thatcan happen out there.
So it's our job to help themwith that.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
Sure.
So when a consumer is shoppingat a local grocery store or a
farmer's market, what thingsshould they take into
consideration when they'rechoosing their food?
Speaker 2 (31:53):
Uh, so simple answer is to buy the food that your
family likes that meets yournutritional needs.
And for me, most often thatinvolves store brand.
Um, and involves the, I activelytry to avoid the non GMO label.
But the best piece of advicethat I can give when you're
(32:13):
selecting your food is to lookat the nutrition fax label.
Um, the first ingredient on apackage is the predominant
ingredient.
Um, and so for example, if youwanna make sure that you're
getting more fiber, make surethat the bread you're buying
actually is made with wholewheat, um, rather than than
usual flour.
So nutrition facts label theingredients panel.
(32:35):
Um, and aside from that, I don'tworry about a whole lot because
I think it's, again, unethicalto make claims on food packages
that aren't necessarily true orat the very best are misleading.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
Okay, sure.
That aren't accurate would beanother way to say that, right?
Yes.
Yeah.
So are there rational orirrational concerns that when
you, when a consumer's buyingmeat or dairy or produce?
Speaker 2 (32:59):
Well, antibiotics are most often in the meat case and
food truce and, uh, excuse me,and food truce from farm to
table antibiotics were, were oneof the biggest concerns that I
had to cover.
Um, because people are worriedrightfully so that they're
feeding their familyantibiotics.
So number one, you need to knowthat meat, um, is tested
regularly.
(33:20):
All milk is tested multipletimes.
And when I talk aboutantibiotics with consumers, this
is usually what it sounds like.
Uh, one of my daughter's cow'sname was peppermint.
She looked like the Chick-fil-Acow.
She's a magnet for people at thestate therap.
They're always flocking aroundher.
And literally when I was writingmy books, I tested this story
with several different moms andit seemed to make antibiotics
(33:43):
more comfortable.
I will ask women literally, haveyou ever had mastitis?
And I know most guys aren'tgoing to ask a woman that.
However, I think you probablyall have experience with
somebody who ha has mastitis andtheir life.
And my understanding is thatit's exceedingly painful.
It makes a person miserable andsuch.
So I simply say, well, imaginewhat peppermint with 70 pounds
(34:04):
of utter hanging beneath hermust feel like when she has
mastitis.
And literally there's cringing.
And I'm like, that's why we useantibiotics.
And that makes it okay to peoplebecause they suddenly can relate
to what the animal is goingthrough.
And when you remember theneuroscience, it relates it back
(34:25):
to animal welfare.
So the brain goes, hello, that'sacceptable.
So that's a really long answerby the cheapest milk in, um,
meat that you can, that yourfamily likes.
That's my simple recommendation.
And know that antibiotics in theUnited States and in Canada are
not a huge concern.
Speaker 1 (34:43):
Well, I think what you just said that story, it, it
kind of humanizes the issue andhelps us to kind of understand
it.
So, uh, you had mentionedearlier about, uh, Topcon, and I
mean most of our listeners knowTopcon is a precision
agriculture company.
But my question relates to that.
It, how does technology, uh, andprecision agriculture impact
(35:05):
food safety?
Speaker 2 (35:06):
Yeah, no, it's technology is so cool.
So companies like Topcon have aresponsibility to be able to
help your customers to share thestory about how Precision's
being used, whether it's droneor gps or, or whatever it may
be.
And the environmentalimplications of being able to
use some of those robots and,and milking cows, whatever the
precision technology may be.
(35:27):
We do amazing things when itcomes to technology and
agriculture, but we don't tellthe story.
And so how are people supposedto know what precision
agriculture really is if we'renot out there illustrating that,
I would challenge you to go outthere and share pictures every
single week, if not every singleday, about what's happening in
fields and how it's reducingchemical usage and what you're
(35:49):
doing to be able to help farmersuse less fertilizer and
therefore reduce their costs.
Because we all know that'scritically important this year.
And to look at the big pictureof sustainability because
precision is a huge part ofthat.
But again, people won't trust itif they don't see it and know
the why behind we using it, whywe use it.
Speaker 1 (36:10):
That's good.
Yes.
And they're just scared aboutthe technology part.
That word's just kind of a scaryword.
Speaker 2 (36:16):
Well, of course it is .
You know, technology is coolwhen it's in the palm of your
hand, but it's less cool whenit's in the food that's going in
your mouth,
Speaker 1 (36:23):
Right?
Yes.
That's what we've been taught.
So are there other farm or foodmyths that you can debunk for
us?
I mean, there are other thingsthat are common that you could
help our listeners understand.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
Sure.
The big ones that I hear about,we've covered, uh, we haven't
really covered animal welfare.
A great deal for those of youthat work in animal agriculture,
know that people's referencepoint is their comp is their
companion animals anthropo minestation is the humanization of
animals.
It's very real.
(36:54):
We're all guilty.
How many of you have been toDisney and hugged a rodent
?
Uh, that's just the reality ofour world today, right?
You know, you look at the petbusiness and it's a
multi-billion dollar businessglobally that's growing at
untold rates.
So here's the deal.
How can you share with the restof the world that your animals
are an hourly concern?
(37:14):
What you're doing daily forthem, how technology is helping
you increase their comfort, um,and what you're doing to help
reduce food costs too in anethical, humane way.
And before you roll your eyes,remember people's reference
point are their dogs and theircats.
So just as I told the story ofpeppermint and giving her
(37:36):
antibiotics, because it's thekindest thing to do, not to
mention it's the the best thingto do if you want your cow to be
able to produce milk, um, thatopens up the line of questions
because of course, I'm not evergoing to tell someone that we're
giving peppermint antibioticswithout making sure that they
understand that that milk iswithheld and that there is a
(37:57):
stringent protocol in place andthere are absolute consequences
for farmers and veterinarians,um, around that.
So we talked animal welfare,antibiotics, hormones, GMOs, uh,
sustainability we didn't touchon real quickly.
I will leave it at this, whetheryou like the term
sustainability, whether youbelieve in greenhouse gas
(38:18):
emissions.
The reality is, is that we areat a time on our society where
we have to address carbon.
We have to address what'shappening in the environment,
and we are going to have ourtrust in agriculture eroded
significantly if we don't get ontop of it.
So rather than looking at it asa political issue, just know
it's something that you have toweave into the stories that you
(38:41):
tell.
I mean, we all love the land orwe wouldn't be on it.
So how do you take care of it?
Just tell people about it.
The only other thing that Iwould like to discuss, um, with
it being such a busy season foryour listeners, so hopefully
they're, they're listening tothis maybe while they're
planting or getting into hay orwhatever they season they may be
in, um, is to realize that yourpersonal wellness is probably
(39:04):
more important than theequipment that you're operating.
And we take little time inagriculture to consider that.
Um, so my hope is, is that maybetoday you can think about how
you can get more sleep, uh,exercise, step away from the
farm if you have to eat a littlebit better, um, just take care
of yourself because we reallyneed you.
(39:24):
Uh, we need everybody who's outthere farming to take better
care of yourself.
So a bit off topic, butsomething that I think is really
important.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
No, that is very, very important.
Michelle.
Thank you so much for joining usand for helping me and our
listeners understand the truthabout our food.
It's, it's been enlightening andvery educational and
interesting.
Speaker 2 (39:46):
Well, thanks for having me and, uh, look forward
to connecting with you.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
To learn more, visit Michelle's
website@www.causematters.com.
You can also check out the FoodBullying podcast.
You can find Michelle on socialmedia at M Payne Speaker.
And that is spelled m p A Y nspeaker, s p e a k e r.
(40:12):
And that's on Twitter, Instagramand LinkedIn.
You can also find Michelle'swork on Facebook by Searching
Cause Matters.
And I want to thank each of ourlisteners for tuning in today.
Topcon appreciates all of ourfriends in agriculture who work
so tirelessly to put food on ourtables.
If you enjoy this podcast,remember to like, share,
(40:32):
subscribe to Topcon TalksAgriculture on Spotify, apple
Podcasts, Amazon Music, orwherever you get your podcasts.
Thanks again for joining ustoday.
See you next time.
Go out and make it a great day.
Hello, and welcome to the Topcon Talks Agriculture
podcast.
On each episode, we discuss andshare topics that are important
to farmers, growers, andagribusiness.
And man, do we have an awesometopic and special guest for
today's episode.
My name is Dan Hendricks, and Iam your host for today.
I serve as the Senior BusinessDevelopment manager for Topcon
(00:35):
Agriculture, and I get to workwith an amazing group of
talented people who loveagriculture.
They enjoy technology, and theystrive to help farmers and
growers find solutions.
In today's podcast, we are goingto try to clear up some
confusion.
It's our goal to fact check someof the misinformation that we
read, that we see, and that wehear about our food.
(00:58):
We are going to discuss thetruth today about what's really
in our food and what we shouldand shouldn't be concerned about
when it comes to the things thatwe eat.
This episode topic came aboutfrom a discussion that, uh, we
had a couple of weeks ago withsome of my top con team members,
and we were talking about howmuch misinformation and
(01:19):
manipulation happens when itcomes to our food.
As an example, one foodfranchise tells us that their
food is clean, but then whatexactly does clean food mean?
Another brand claims that theyuse only all natural
ingredients, but how do youdefine all natural?
At the grocery store, we seeorganic or fat free, or it helps
(01:42):
heart health or it's gluten free, or it contains real fruit
juice or free range poultry, andit goes on and on and on.
But there's a lot of confusionabout what those terms mean and
the all of the terms are justcrazy and kind of out of
control.
And with full disclosure, let,let, let me tell you, here's my
(02:02):
rub with all of this confusion.
I believe it causes a lot ofunfortunate and misguided
distrust for agriculture and forthe farmers and ranchers who
work so hard to put food on ourtable.
So, in an effort to shed somelight and understanding on this
topic and find out the truthbehind our food, we have invited
author and food marketing expertMichelle Payne to join us.
(02:25):
Michelle is one of the leadingexperts in the US connecting
farm and food in 2001, shefounded the company Cause
Matters that exist to createconnections around the food
plate.
Her work and books focus onaddressing food myths,
developing sciencecommunication, and connecting
food to farm.
She is an internationalaward-winning author.
(02:47):
Her latest book entitled FoodBullying, how to Avoid Buying Bs
has won several awards, and shehas developed the Food Bullying
podcast to help peopleunderstand the main reason that
food should be about comfort andcelebration.
So, Michelle, welcome to theTopcon Podcast.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Hey, thanks for having me.
I am excited to be here.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Uh, well, we are thrilled to have you and, uh, we
just hope to glean some insightfrom you over these next 30
minutes.
So l let me start out by askingto tell us a little bit more
about your personal backgroundand what is your connection to
agriculture?
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Sure.
Well, I was born intoagriculture and have a lifelong
love affair with beautiful blackand white Holstein cows.
I grew up on a dairy farm insouthern Michigan, and, um,
learned most of my life lessonsthere.
Graduated from Michigan StateUniversity, go green to any
Spartans that are listening, Ihave to get that plug in there.
And, um, actually startedworking, uh, believe it or not,
(03:47):
selling semen and embryosinternationally, which is makes
for fascinating airplaneconversations.
Let me just leave it at that
And then, um, went on to workfor the national F F A
Foundation, uh, to be able toraise a whole lot of money for
an organization that had asignificant impact on my life.
Had a short stint in e-businessand then decided to start my own
(04:10):
business as a professionalspeaker.
I never really believed that Iwould be an author, but, uh,
found myself writing my firstbook in 2013 and really what my
connection has been to helpthose in agriculture have the
tough conversations.
Uh, back when I started in 2001,I had to convince a whole lot of
people that advocacy was anissue that people didn't know,
(04:33):
they didn't trust, and theydidn't understand agriculture.
I no longer have to convincepeople of that problem.
Um, and throughout the, theyears, my, my topics have
evolved into working withdieticians and those in
nutrition, nutrition side of thebusiness.
Uh, my food bullying, uh,podcast is actually co-hosted by
a dietician and we specificallyfocus on some farm stories to
(04:55):
help those who prioritizenutrition.
And then, um, I also have, uh,evolved in the last couple of
years to include, uh, helpingpeople have the tough
conversations about stress andmental wellness and agriculture.
I think we all know that we havea problem on our hands that we
need to better handle stress.
So that's kind of in a nutshell.
(05:16):
I still own registered holing,uh, cattle today.
They're running around my frontyard, hopefully behind a fence.
My daughter and I greatly enjoyshowing them.
And I live, uh, west in westcentral Indiana on a small farm
and, and, and travel the worldto be able to serve farmers and
others are on the plate.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
Yeah.
Tell me a little bit more about,you don't have to talk people
into the importance of advisadvocacy now.
What, what do you exactly meanby that?
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Well, when you think of the case studies of what has
happened in agriculture and thelost practices, the lost
products that we could no longeruse, R B S T gestation stalls,
cage-free.
Um, you look at chemicals thatcan no longer be used.
The reality is is that the 98.5%of the population that's not on
a farmer ranch today doesn'tknow us.
(06:04):
They don't trust us.
And unfortunately, they're easyper easily persuaded, which is
why I wrote food bullying isbecause I saw a lot of brains
being manipulated around foodand how food is raised.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
And who is your typical audience of, for, for
your books or when you speak,are they producers, consumers,
educators, or,
Speaker 2 (06:22):
I work with all, I particularly love working with
farmers.
Um, I've had people tell me, uh,that they, they can see that I
know what they're thinkingextremely well and it makes them
very uncomfortable.
And honestly, I'm probably knownfor antagonizing farmers into
action because I can get awaywith it as one of them,
honestly.
And I do it out of love.
To be clear, it's not any illintention, but it is time that
(06:44):
we stand up and speak out.
We all know that we have issueswith people who don't understand
our business.
But I will also tell you that Iwork with dtic audiences.
Um, my three books are allheavily cited, in particular the
last two.
Uh, so food bullying and foodtruths from farm to table have
been used in dieteticcurriculum, which is a huge
honor to me.
(07:05):
Um, because it is something thatallows me to take the producer
voice, to take the farmer voice,to take the veterinarian voice
into the community of the peoplethat are, are helping others
choose their nutrition.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
Yeah.
And what has maintained yourinterest in food science after
all this time?
Speaker 2 (07:24):
Uh, well, the, my interest is probably more in the
production of food than it is infood science.
I love science to be clear.
Um, but food science is a, apretty hardcore discipline.
It's pretty easy for me.
I love agriculture.
I love the people ofagriculture, and I strongly
believe that we have to do moreto speak out and connect on a
(07:45):
human level with the people thataren't on a farm or ranch, and
we need to do so proactively.
Um, and the other piece of itis, is trying to take a look at
some of the, the world problemsthat we have, food insecurity,
um, suicide rates inagriculture, looking at
sustainability and looking atsome of the, the big picture
problems.
That's really kind of what keepsme up at night.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Now you're known for connecting people to food and
agriculture and the, the thingsthat we eat through your books
and your podcast and speaking.
But, but break that down.
What does that exactly mean?
I mean, for the person out therethat is just listening and, and
trying to understand that, canyou put it in just real simple
terms for us?
Speaker 2 (08:26):
Sure.
If you're driving around at atractor, do you know how to go
talk to a person who's shoppingat Whole Foods?
Uh, probably not.
And what I try to challengepeople to do on both sides of
the plate is to be able toconnect on a human level.
So we, in agriculture, we loveour technology, right?
I mean, especially at yourcompany.
(08:47):
We, we love data, we lovescience.
Um, Illinois Farm Families did astudy, uh, several years ago now
that showed that people, peopletrust farmers but they don't
trust farming.
And when you think about that,and the people of agriculture I
see in my audience is reallystruggle with that.
One is about the people, thehumans.
(09:08):
So they trust the people, butthey don't trust the process
because they don't know theprocess.
They won't trust the process,and they won't, um, be able to
understand what we're doingunless we are able to
communicate more effectivelywith them.
And that involves connecting atan emotional level.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
And would you say that for most farmers they have
trouble like separating thosetwo between farming and the
process?
Cuz to them it's kind of one andthe same?
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Yeah.
So this gets into one of thereasons why I believe, and I've
observed that we have a mentalhealth problem in agriculture.
Um, many farmers believe thatthey were created as a farmer.
And, uh, I will argue all daylong that you were created as a
human being first.
And unfortunately, when peoplelose their businesses, when they
(10:02):
lose their farms, their identityis so closely tied to that, it
becomes a real issue.
Um, and I understand that myparents actually lost our farm
to bankruptcy several years agonow.
So I understand the pain that'sassociated with that.
But when it comes to connectingwith others who aren't out there
driving a tractor, who don't ownan agribusiness, who don't
(10:24):
understand the trials andtribulations of what it takes to
milk cows or grow cattle or, uh,get that fuel of weed or corn
off, um, we have to be able toconnect with them as a human
first and be able to relate tothem, whether it's about the
badgers versus the Spartans, uh,whether it's about the art or
(10:46):
whether it's about hunting orexercising or being a father or
an uncle or a mom.
Um, it, I always try toencourage people of agriculture
to relate to the rest of theworld as humans first.
And that will give you thepermission to talk about the
process and the products andsome of the things that you want
(11:07):
to talk about.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
That's a fascinating perspective.
Um, so tell me about your latestbook Food Bullying.
Wh where did that title comefrom,
Speaker 2 (11:18):
Well, it came from a personwho's really sick of claims,
like clean food that you hadsaid.
I always wanna ask, um, Panera,if they washed their food, if
they washed their hands, what,what exactly that means.
And I actually use that as anexample in food bullying.
So food today is a 9 trillionbusiness that includes all of us
(11:41):
in agriculture.
Um, when I wrote food bullyingwas a 5.75 trillion business.
So we looked at what, 15%inflation in food last year, 10%
expected this year.
Those are some crazy numbers,but what an opportunity for us
to be able to illustrate topeople, um, that we are trying
to do the right thing in raisingfood and keeping those costs
(12:05):
down.
So food bullying really is alook at how brains are
manipulated.
And, and you had alluded to theStan, people feel confused, they
feel guilty about food, and Icontend that food is first about
nourishment.
Um, and then it's aboutcelebration and tradition.
I mean, think about how manymemories you have around your
family's food table and howspecial those are.
(12:29):
And so I really wrote foodbullying to try to remove the
guilt and to share real lifefarm stories, stories from
veterinarian stories, um, fromdieticians, those with firsthand
expertise and food, nutrition,farming, ranching, agriculture,
uh, so that we could get sometruth out there about what is
(12:50):
happening in the way food israised today.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
So how would you say that we can build food trust
with consumers?
What are some of the practicalsteps?
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Uh, great question.
Easier, um, said than done insome cases.
But I will tell every listenerout there that you can make a
significant difference in thisbecause without fail, I've
actually had one client who I'vesent out, had, um, people go out
in their leadership class inIowa Farm Bureau for 20 years
(13:22):
now and interview non-agagriculture people in their
community.
And without fail, people willsay, well, I know you, and that
means that people who farm thisare okay, whether it's beef
farmer, whether it's, uh, beanfarmer, whatever it may be.
So the point here is, is thatyour personal story can actually
make a huge difference.
(13:43):
So taking the time to talk topeople when they have questions,
and rather than being defensiveand getting mad when the latest
crap comes out,
farming are the latest video.
I mean, we've all seen them.
And the reality is, is that wehave to be able to humanize
agriculture.
(14:03):
And that starts with havingconversations and it involves
biting your tongue when peoplesay things that you don't like.
Um, and it involves listening.
And one of the greatestchallenges is that I've had in
my career is to take my farm hatoff and to listen and learn, um,
from consumers who are radicallydifferent than me.
(14:27):
And those conversations arereally important.
So I, I would suggest on apractical level, have a
conversation.
Listen, learn.
And if you can't think ofanything else to say, ask the
person why do you feel that way?
And you might be surprised atwhat you learn.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
That's good.
So, so being less defensivewould be, uh, uh, yes.
A step.
Okay.
Very interesting.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
That would be fantastic.
So
Speaker 1 (14:54):
Why do you think there is this disconnect between
what you know to be true onfarms and farming and then maybe
in the, the general populationor the person that's at Whole
Foods that's buying, why isthere a disconnect?
Speaker 2 (15:11):
You know, when I wrote food bullying, um, I
developed a cycle of foodbullying, and it starts over at
nine o'clock with disconnect.
You know, we all know thatthere's only 1.5% of the
population that's on a farmerranch today.
Uh, so there's this disconnect.
And I think if we're all be, uh,honest, we probably would rather
deal with our land and ouranimals, then we would with
(15:31):
other human beings.
That's just a natural tendencyin agriculture.
No judgment.
Um, so there's this, yeah,there's this disconnect.
And interestingly enough, thiswas pre covid.
Um, my alma mater, MichiganState did a study that showed
that 75% of people had not meton a farmer ranch in the last
five years prior to the study.
And Michigan's an incrediblydiverse agriculture state if
(15:54):
you're not aware.
And I'm sure that number hasgone up significantly.
So if people aren't coming tothe farmer ranch and we're not
talking to them, this disconnectis going to, uh, grow.
And obviously the next one up,which is on at 12 o'clock on the
cycle is distrust.
Uh, you don't trust what youdon't know.
Uh, when you think about that,consider a salesperson or a
(16:18):
consultant that walks onto yourfarm and tells you that they
need to educate you withoutasking any questions.
That sometimes is what we inagriculture try to do with the
rest of the world.
So we need to understand thatthere's this disconnect with
this distrust, because again,they trust the people of
agriculture.
They don't necessarily trust theprocess.
(16:40):
And then after that, at threeo'clock comes fear, and the next
step is bullying.
Because with the fear that comesas natural distrust, there's
fear that they're not buying theright food for their family.
There's fear that farmers areabusing animals.
There's fear that, uh, farmersare pouring chemicals on the
(17:00):
land.
There's fear in the technologythat's being used to produce
food today.
And we approach it atagriculture from the farm
perspective.
Um, for example, we have theworld's safest, most abundant
food supply and trustinglyenough, uh, at least 40% of
Americans don't think it's ourresponsibility to feed the
world.
(17:22):
And for Canadian listeners, I'veseen parallel numbers in your
country as well.
So we have to try to step backand see what people are
thinking.
And so much of that isemotionally driven.
And that was one of the thingsthat I showcased in food
bullying.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
Michelle, here's what really ticks me off.
I question the motive of theterms that is used in food
marketing because I hate thedistrust that it breeds in
consumers towards agricultureand farmers.
Uh, just like you have said, um,I have a really good friend
who's been farming all of hislife and he was telling me that
he was in Colorado, uh, visitinghis family and he saw some
(18:04):
protestors and went up and foundout that they were protesting
against GMOs being unsafe.
And, uh, he, he said he, hetried to do what you said and
tried to humanize it, but hesaid he told the, the lady that
was standing there, the collegestudent with the sign, he said,
the food I raise on my farm isthe food that I feed to my wife
and to my kids and to mygrandkids.
(18:25):
And if for a second I believedit was unsafe, w why would I
feed it to them?
And he just said, you know,there was this little bit of
like, shell shock of, I've neverthought about that, so.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Well, that's good.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
Yes.
Yeah.
But so do you feel like, wheredoes this bullying come from?
Is it from the manufacturers,the, the, the restaurant
industry or the marketing ofthem?
Or like, why is the bullyinghappening and like, who's it
coming from?
Speaker 2 (18:55):
Well, it can come from all levels.
I mean, including farmers.
Let's, let's face it, if, if Iwas honest and I had to write
this in the book when I wrotethe book, cause I didn't wanna
be a hypocrite, I'm a foodbully.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
In what way?
Tell me what you mean by that.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
Number one, I'm a mom.
Every mom that I've ever met asa food bully in some way
and I'm being facetious, I don'twanna insult anyone, but for
example, the what I put in thebook is my, my husband who does
not cook often, but he likes totease me that he would like to
cook corn beef hash.
And my immediate response is notin my kitchen.
I don't wanna smell that
(19:28):
So that's a fun example.
And here's, here's the deal thatwe have to realize is not
everybody who is a bully intendsto be a bully.
One of the examples that I usedwas, uh, one of my dear friends
is in the fitness trainingbusiness.
And she attended a class wherethe woman who had no dietetic
background, no professional nunutri nutrition training and
(19:49):
certainly no training inagriculture, uh, the woman went
on to tell everyone about howexactly they should eat, which
included dairy-free, gluten-freevegan, so forth and so on, and
high pressure situation.
That's an example of an extremein-person bully.
There's bullies all overFacebook and I think we all know
that I would never recommendthat you use the hashtag GMO on
(20:12):
Twitter, for example, cuz you'llget the crazies that come out.
But there's also farmers who,who bully.
And this is where I wouldchallenge some thinking.
I have a friend Ryan Weeks, whofarms several thousand acres,
um, very progressive farmer inNebraska.
He transitioned over half of hisacres to organic.
And as a conent, he has beenostracized from the agriculture
(20:33):
community by and large, locallybecause he chose to farm
organically.
And to me it's about choice.
You know, food is a choice and,and farming is a choice.
So that, that's an example ofbullying that most people don't
necessarily like to hear about.
But it is the truth.
You know, I could also tell, behonest and tell you that I am a
(20:53):
complete bully when it comes tobreeding dairy cattle.
Cuz I will not have a red andwhite heifer on my farm.
I will not have anything butblack and white Holsteins and I
don't like little brown cows.
So
But to get to the point of yourquestion about food packaging,
here's the deal.
Um, people don't understand, forexample, that milk is all
antibiotic free as a, if it issold as grade a milk in the
(21:16):
United States.
So they see, same with chicken,same with meat.
They see antibiotic free andthey think, oh, I need to avoid
the other meat becauseantibiotics are bad and they
don't realize the testing andthe protocols that are in place
to protect our food supply.
And we have to takeresponsibility for that because
(21:38):
that means that we haven'tcommunicated with them.
So,
Speaker 1 (21:42):
So it's, it's, it's kind of a twist.
I'm sorry to interrupt, but it'skind of a marketing play then it
Speaker 2 (21:48):
Kind a
Speaker 1 (21:48):
Twist in the marketing Yeah.
To get you to buy their productor think, well, of course it is.
Their product is superior.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
Yeah.
So in the book, one of the, um,personal highlights of the book,
um, for when I was writing foodbullying was, uh, uh, it was a
brand new study at the time fromDr.
Tyler Davis.
He was at Texas Tech,unfortunately he's now with
meta, but he's a neuroscientist.
And to be clear, my degrees arein animal science and
agriculture communications.
(22:15):
I am not a neuroscientist.
And I had to study the brain awhole lot to even be able to
explain this.
But what his study did is showedin the prefrontal cortex that
your, your brain basicallyreacts one of two ways, which we
all know fight or flight, right?
And so he studied people's, um,reaction, the prefrontal
cortex's reaction to modern day,uh, agriculture production
(22:38):
technology, including GMOs,hormones, antibiotics, uh,
sustainability and animalwelfare.
And what he found is that thebrain reacts positively.
It, it chills out innon-scientific te terms when it
comes to topics around animalwelfare, believe it or not, and
(22:59):
sustainability, which I knowsome people hate the term
sustainability, and you thinkclimate change is a farce.
But I would also challenge youto say that if people look at
agriculture as badsustainability actors, and we
have a lot of things taken awayin the future, we probably ought
to figure out how to talk aboutthat more.
But to get back to the study heused F M R I and basically
(23:22):
showed that the, the brain, um,and non-scientific terms kind of
freaked out about hormones,antibiotics, and GMOs, which is
not a surprise to any of us.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
So who would you say are the influencers to this
problem?
Speaker 2 (23:35):
Well, there are many, uh, socialmedia obviously.
Um, I think we have to lookacross and there's Dr.
Oz, there's Food Bay, there'slots of people.
Um, there's some that I followon Instagram that literally make
my brain below apart.
Um, I would also say thatdieticians and farmers are
(23:56):
influencers too.
Food, food processors, foodretailers, um, food service
companies, there's any number.
Um, the challenge that we haveto try to help people understand
is that the labels that are on apackage are kind of like
lipstick on a pig.
Um, you, you can put as muchlipstick as you want on the pig,
(24:19):
but at the end of the day, it'sstill a pig.
And I went through severalhundred pages of, um, label
requirements in labels and soforth.
When I wrote food bullying, Icovered them all in I think
chapter 13 of the book.
But it's all in one chapter.
There are far fewer labels thatare measured and meaningful, um,
(24:39):
that are truly defined, andtherefore they have distinction.
There's far fewer of thoselabels than what many people
realize.
Sustainable is not a label thatis anything but bullying because
it's not measurable.
Um, farm raised is a label thatkind of makes my brain explode.
I don't know how you feel aboutthat, Dan, but it makes me
really angry,
Speaker 1 (25:00):
Right?
It's just, it's completelyvague,
Speaker 2 (25:03):
Right?
And it, it's not measured, it'snot defined.
Non G M O is a paid to playlabel.
If you're not aware, there'sonly about a dozen food, um,
that that actually can begenetically modified.
And so companies are paying asignificant amount of money to
have that non G M O labelslapped on.
And to me that's an ethical, I'msorry, but if there's not an, if
(25:25):
there's not a pepper out therethat's a gmo, you shouldn't have
a non GMO label on that.
Um, whole grains is actuallyone, the whole grains label is a
positive example that isdefined.
It is measured, it ismeaningful.
So we've got some majorchallenges when you look at the
influences because it's not justsocial media, it's also
(25:46):
people's, again, disconnect fromagriculture and the confusion
and the mess that we havehappening on the front of food
packages.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
So if I am a farmer operator listening to this
podcast that owns and operatessome kind of farm, and I'm in
agriculture, what would you sayto me that I could do to help
this problem?
What are some practical thingsthat I could do to like say, you
(26:17):
know, make a difference,
Speaker 2 (26:20):
Uh, engage in conversation in a human personal
emotional way?
Uh, psychology clearly provesthat if people have that trust
connection, um, that you'regoing to have a more positive
conversation.
So for some of your listeners,that means posting photos on
Instagram about the upcomingplanting season or harvesting,
(26:41):
whatever it may be, calving, um,posting some photos and
providing some context to why wedo what we do in agriculture.
Uh, for other listeners, thatmeans that in your church
parking lot, talking about whatyou're doing in the field and,
and if you plant G M O corn, whyyou plant G M O corn and why it
actually, um, can save you, uh,from fuel, um, from chemical
(27:04):
usage and, and so forth.
If you're in a grocery store,taking the time to pause and try
to have a conversation, not insome weird way, but to have a
conversation with people, um,that are trying to figure out
what to buy in their food.
And one of the fun things that Ialways have people do that I've
gotten some interesting feedbackfrom is, at your next major
(27:27):
family gathering, ask yourextended family members how they
feel about today's farming.
And then promise me you won'tthrow food at them
Speaker 1 (27:37):
answers are gonna be verynegative.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
Well, not necessarily negative, but I have had people
over the years completelyshocked by, um, their siblings,
their cousins, their aunts,their uncles, their grandkids
that grew up on farms that don'tunderstand they, so you think
about it, the brain isconstantly exposed to, we have
what, 10,000 messages flying atus every day.
(28:04):
So you see non gmo, you see nongmo, you hear an article, oh
what farmers are doing weirdthings with your food?
Oh, maybe we shouldn't trustthis.
So it's a natural humanresponse.
Um, and before you think thatI'm completely slamming GMOs,
what's been really exciting forme is I never thought the
pendulum would swing, um, onbiotech, but it absolutely has.
(28:28):
Cuz we've actually seen, um,cargo here change some of their
plants from non GMO to acceptingall sorts of grains.
Now we've seen some movement inEurope and people finally are
starting to realize that geneticmodification, whether it's
CRISPR biotechnology or whateverit may be, just breeding good
cattle, that that can actuallyhelp you save on some food costs
(28:51):
, which we all need to do today.
Um, so there's, there's beensome really positive movement
and I think that the morefarmers that we have just out
there having a conversation, andagain, please don't dump data
and puke science on people'sshoes.
Try your best to connect withthem on an emotional level.
And you might be surprised atwhere you get,
Speaker 1 (29:11):
If, if I throw out some terms that I, that we would
say are scary terms, can youhelp me like you explain really
quickly what these thingsactually mean and why or why are
, why or why not, we should bescared of them.
Like with G gmo, how would youdefine that?
If someone's listening andthey're like, I hear that I, but
I don't know what that means.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
Yep.
Quick answer on that is to lookup the be label, which stands
for bio-engineered, which was alabel that was supposed to be
required starting in 2022.
I think it, it was delayedbecause of covid.
Um, genetic modification isextremely difficult to explain
in a society where two-thirds ofpeople don't understand that
their food has d n A in it.
I mean, I want you to thinkabout that.
(29:54):
That's a serious st.
Statistics
So
Speaker 1 (29:58):
What about the term organic?
Speaker 2 (30:00):
Uh, so organic is a farming choice and it's, uh, one
that many I'm sure probablydon't necessarily like to hear,
but it is monitored and measuredby the U S D A.
The U S D A organic seal is a,um, again, meaningful label
because it is defined clearlyand it is monitored and
measured.
The way I look at it is afarming choice.
(30:22):
It's not necessarily morenutritious, but it is a choice
for some producers to
Speaker 1 (30:27):
Make.
Okay, thank you for that.
Now, when someone sayspesticides, what does that mean?
Speaker 2 (30:34):
Yes, so pesticides are really interesting cuz
obviously it's a huge class ofproducts.
So we, you have to know that itinvolves fungus to treat, to
create, to treat fruits andveggies.
It involves, um, insecticides tokill all the nasty little bugs.
It includes herbicides to killweeds.
I just sprayed some on my yardyesterday.
And the way that I try to get,uh, people outside of
agriculture understand whatpesticides are is to talk about
(30:57):
aphids on their tomato plantthat they have on their patio or
, uh, how they treat theirroses.
And usually they can identifythat there's nasty little bugs
that they have to put things on.
And so I just explained to themthe same thing has to happen,
um, in a field.
And rather than getting in thestatistics of the overuse of
what's happening withfertilization and yards versus
(31:19):
farms, because that's fairlyaccusatory, I just try to help
them understand that where foodgrows, bugs go, and that bug can
be a mold, it can be an actualinsect, it can be a weed and
such.
Um, they don't have perspectiveif they've never walked a field
of exactly all the nasties thatcan happen out there.
So it's our job to help themwith that.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
Sure.
So when a consumer is shoppingat a local grocery store or a
farmer's market, what thingsshould they take into
consideration when they'rechoosing their food?
Speaker 2 (31:53):
Uh, so simple answer is to buy the food that your
family likes that meets yournutritional needs.
And for me, most often thatinvolves store brand.
Um, and involves the, I activelytry to avoid the non GMO label.
But the best piece of advicethat I can give when you're
(32:13):
selecting your food is to lookat the nutrition fax label.
Um, the first ingredient on apackage is the predominant
ingredient.
Um, and so for example, if youwanna make sure that you're
getting more fiber, make surethat the bread you're buying
actually is made with wholewheat, um, rather than than
usual flour.
So nutrition facts label theingredients panel.
(32:35):
Um, and aside from that, I don'tworry about a whole lot because
I think it's, again, unethicalto make claims on food packages
that aren't necessarily true orat the very best are misleading.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
Okay, sure.
That aren't accurate would beanother way to say that, right?
Yes.
Yeah.
So are there rational orirrational concerns that when
you, when a consumer's buyingmeat or dairy or produce?
Speaker 2 (32:59):
Well, antibiotics are most often in the meat case and
food truce and, uh, excuse me,and food truce from farm to
table antibiotics were, were oneof the biggest concerns that I
had to cover.
Um, because people are worriedrightfully so that they're
feeding their familyantibiotics.
So number one, you need to knowthat meat, um, is tested
regularly.
(33:20):
All milk is tested multipletimes.
And when I talk aboutantibiotics with consumers, this
is usually what it sounds like.
Uh, one of my daughter's cow'sname was peppermint.
She looked like the Chick-fil-Acow.
She's a magnet for people at thestate therap.
They're always flocking aroundher.
And literally when I was writingmy books, I tested this story
with several different moms andit seemed to make antibiotics
(33:43):
more comfortable.
I will ask women literally, haveyou ever had mastitis?
And I know most guys aren'tgoing to ask a woman that.
However, I think you probablyall have experience with
somebody who ha has mastitis andtheir life.
And my understanding is thatit's exceedingly painful.
It makes a person miserable andsuch.
So I simply say, well, imaginewhat peppermint with 70 pounds
(34:04):
of utter hanging beneath hermust feel like when she has
mastitis.
And literally there's cringing.
And I'm like, that's why we useantibiotics.
And that makes it okay to peoplebecause they suddenly can relate
to what the animal is goingthrough.
And when you remember theneuroscience, it relates it back
(34:25):
to animal welfare.
So the brain goes, hello, that'sacceptable.
So that's a really long answerby the cheapest milk in, um,
meat that you can, that yourfamily likes.
That's my simple recommendation.
And know that antibiotics in theUnited States and in Canada are
not a huge concern.
Speaker 1 (34:43):
Well, I think what you just said that story, it, it
kind of humanizes the issue andhelps us to kind of understand
it.
So, uh, you had mentionedearlier about, uh, Topcon, and I
mean most of our listeners knowTopcon is a precision
agriculture company.
But my question relates to that.
It, how does technology, uh, andprecision agriculture impact
(35:05):
food safety?
Speaker 2 (35:06):
Yeah, no, it's technology is so cool.
So companies like Topcon have aresponsibility to be able to
help your customers to share thestory about how Precision's
being used, whether it's droneor gps or, or whatever it may
be.
And the environmentalimplications of being able to
use some of those robots and,and milking cows, whatever the
precision technology may be.
(35:27):
We do amazing things when itcomes to technology and
agriculture, but we don't tellthe story.
And so how are people supposedto know what precision
agriculture really is if we'renot out there illustrating that,
I would challenge you to go outthere and share pictures every
single week, if not every singleday, about what's happening in
fields and how it's reducingchemical usage and what you're
(35:49):
doing to be able to help farmersuse less fertilizer and
therefore reduce their costs.
Because we all know that'scritically important this year.
And to look at the big pictureof sustainability because
precision is a huge part ofthat.
But again, people won't trust itif they don't see it and know
the why behind we using it, whywe use it.
Speaker 1 (36:10):
That's good.
Yes.
And they're just scared aboutthe technology part.
That word's just kind of a scaryword.
Speaker 2 (36:16):
Well, of course it is .
You know, technology is coolwhen it's in the palm of your
hand, but it's less cool whenit's in the food that's going in
your mouth,
Speaker 1 (36:23):
Right?
Yes.
That's what we've been taught.
So are there other farm or foodmyths that you can debunk for
us?
I mean, there are other thingsthat are common that you could
help our listeners understand.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
Sure.
The big ones that I hear about,we've covered, uh, we haven't
really covered animal welfare.
A great deal for those of youthat work in animal agriculture,
know that people's referencepoint is their comp is their
companion animals anthropo minestation is the humanization of
animals.
It's very real.
(36:54):
We're all guilty.
How many of you have been toDisney and hugged a rodent
Uh, that's just the reality ofour world today, right?
You know, you look at the petbusiness and it's a
multi-billion dollar businessglobally that's growing at
untold rates.
So here's the deal.
How can you share with the restof the world that your animals
are an hourly concern?
(37:14):
What you're doing daily forthem, how technology is helping
you increase their comfort, um,and what you're doing to help
reduce food costs too in anethical, humane way.
And before you roll your eyes,remember people's reference
point are their dogs and theircats.
So just as I told the story ofpeppermint and giving her
(37:36):
antibiotics, because it's thekindest thing to do, not to
mention it's the the best thingto do if you want your cow to be
able to produce milk, um, thatopens up the line of questions
because of course, I'm not evergoing to tell someone that we're
giving peppermint antibioticswithout making sure that they
understand that that milk iswithheld and that there is a
(37:57):
stringent protocol in place andthere are absolute consequences
for farmers and veterinarians,um, around that.
So we talked animal welfare,antibiotics, hormones, GMOs, uh,
sustainability we didn't touchon real quickly.
I will leave it at this, whetheryou like the term
sustainability, whether youbelieve in greenhouse gas
(38:18):
emissions.
The reality is, is that we areat a time on our society where
we have to address carbon.
We have to address what'shappening in the environment,
and we are going to have ourtrust in agriculture eroded
significantly if we don't get ontop of it.
So rather than looking at it asa political issue, just know
it's something that you have toweave into the stories that you
(38:41):
tell.
I mean, we all love the land orwe wouldn't be on it.
So how do you take care of it?
Just tell people about it.
The only other thing that Iwould like to discuss, um, with
it being such a busy season foryour listeners, so hopefully
they're, they're listening tothis maybe while they're
planting or getting into hay orwhatever they season they may be
in, um, is to realize that yourpersonal wellness is probably
(39:04):
more important than theequipment that you're operating.
And we take little time inagriculture to consider that.
Um, so my hope is, is that maybetoday you can think about how
you can get more sleep, uh,exercise, step away from the
farm if you have to eat a littlebit better, um, just take care
of yourself because we reallyneed you.
(39:24):
Uh, we need everybody who's outthere farming to take better
care of yourself.
So a bit off topic, butsomething that I think is really
important.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
No, that is very, very important.
Michelle.
Thank you so much for joining usand for helping me and our
listeners understand the truthabout our food.
It's, it's been enlightening andvery educational and
interesting.
Speaker 2 (39:46):
Well, thanks for having me and, uh, look forward
to connecting with you.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
To learn more, visit Michelle's
website@www.causematters.com.
You can also check out the FoodBullying podcast.
You can find Michelle on socialmedia at M Payne Speaker.
And that is spelled m p A Y nspeaker, s p e a k e r.
(40:12):
And that's on Twitter, Instagramand LinkedIn.
You can also find Michelle'swork on Facebook by Searching
Cause Matters.
And I want to thank each of ourlisteners for tuning in today.
Topcon appreciates all of ourfriends in agriculture who work
so tirelessly to put food on ourtables.
If you enjoy this podcast,remember to like, share,
(40:32):
subscribe to Topcon TalksAgriculture on Spotify, apple
Podcasts, Amazon Music, orwherever you get your podcasts.
Thanks again for joining ustoday.
See you next time.
Go out and make it a great day.
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