Torpedo Swimtalk Podcast with Jaimie Fuller - Cutting Edge Technological Innovation in Swimming with EOSwimBetter Handsets - Torpedo Swimtalk Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Danielle Spurling (00:00):
Are you keen to improve your speed in the
water?
Well, it all comes down totechnique, and I just tried out
a new device which actuallygives you all that information.
Eo Swim Better handsets are anifty little device that fit
into the palm of your hand whileyou swim.
It records your strokemechanics accurately by
measuring the force of yourhands in six different

(00:22):
directions.
In a matter of seconds, allthat data is magically
transferred to your phone.
That means you can instantlypinpoint where you're losing
force, spot any sneaky strokepath quirks that might be
slowing you down and track howyour technique evolves as you
power through the laps.
You can analyse yourperformance on a lap-by-lap or

(00:46):
stroke-by-stroke basis, plus,with the option to sync your
data to video.
Making those technique tweaksis as easy as pie.
Go to eolabcom backslashswimbetter and use code torpedo
at checkout to save 10% on anyhandset purchase.

(01:15):
Hello swimmers and welcome toanother episode of Torpedo Swim
Talk podcast.
I'm your host, DanielleSpurling, and each week we chat
to a master swimmer from aroundthe world about their swimming
journey.
Today, we chat with formerSkins CEO and sports activist,
jamie Fuller, about his newventure, eo Swim Better Handsets

(01:40):
.
These groundbreaking littlebeauties fit into your hand
while you swim, capturing datathat revolutionises your
swimming performance.
Jaimie gives us a behind thescenes look into their creation,
which is part of his broadercompany eo lab, as well as
breaking down my own data fromswimming with them and wasn't I

(02:02):
in for a surprise with myresults?
Let's hear from Jaimie now.
Hi, jaimie, welcome to thepodcast and thanks for joining
us.

Jaimie Fuller (02:15):
Thank you, Danielle, lovely to be with you.

Yeah, it's really good.
I'm excited to talk to you andhear all about what we're going
to chat about today, and we'vegot heaps to speak about.
I wanted to start with yourcurrent project, which is as
chairman and co-founder of EOSports Tech and primarily the EO
Swim Better handsets.
What drew you to swimming andwhat inspired you to create them

(02:37):
?

So what inspired?
It?

Yeah, what inspired?
It?

So just before I talk about that, just to give
you a little background.
So the whole purpose of thecompany?
We're a business thatspecialises in developing
products for elite athletes, butthese products need to be able

(03:02):
to be sold to the seriousamateur.
So it's about helping athletesimprove their performance and
there are ways of bringingtechnology to play in certain
areas that can assist athletesto either perform better or
recover faster, or minimize orprevent injury or even improve

(03:24):
rehabilitation post-injury.
So that sort of sets thelandscape for everything we do.
I've got two co-founders.
One of them is a gentlemancalled Dr Kenneth Graham and
Kenneth was 24 years in sportsscience roles at the New South
Wales Institute of Sport, last14 years as chief scientist.

(03:46):
And so Kenneth, the principlebehind the business is basically
to take what's in Kenneth'shead, because he's this man
who's been helping elite andparticularly Olympic athletes
for a quarter of a century inbringing science to their sport
and how to help them.
For a very, very, very smallnumber of people who get to

(04:11):
engage with kenneth's massivebrain.
So the idea is is how do wetake what's in his head and
create systems and products andtechnologies that are then
available for you and me and thepeople who I'll never be paid
to play my sport.
I'll never represent my country, but that doesn't stop me being
seriously serious about what Ido, and especially if I'm

(04:36):
competing.
So that was sort of how westarted and how we set out, and
the first product that we'vetaken to market is swim better,
and it's a device that measuresa whole bunch of really
interesting stuff for swimmers,and part of the driving factor

(04:57):
here is, when you look atswimming, it's probably the
least invested sport in allsports across the world.
You know, if you do a graph ofhow much money has been invested
into each sport, on one sideyou've got football, soccer and
you've got this much in football, and then basketball and tennis

(05:20):
and gridiron and some boom,boom, boom, boom, boom, boom,
and it keeps going along anddown, down, down, and at the
very, very, very, very end isbarely making a line on the
piece of paper is swimming, andso we thought this creates a
great opportunity for us to dragswimming into the 21st century

(05:42):
and to bring in some superthinking from guys like Kenneth
and other people with massivebrains in this sport.
To what can we then provideswimmers and when I say swimmers
, even a rubbish swimmer like me, totally rubbish.
I've taken eight minutes off my800, which is great, don't get

(06:07):
me wrong.
I've gone from absolutely supercrap or uber crap to crap right
.
I've taken eight minutes off.
But at the other end of thescale you've got Kyle Chalmers,
who missed out in the gold inTokyo, caleb by six hundredths
of a second.
So where you've got've got youknow the, the people, the guys
and girls at the top of theOlympic pyramid looking for

(06:29):
those tents, down to triathletesand rubbish swimmers who are
looking for minutes, many, manyminutes.
It's, then, seemed to be a greatopportunity, because it was
territory that nobody elseseemed to be exploring, and so
what we've been able to do iswe've been able to come up with
a system that works on it'snewton's third law, and newton's

(06:56):
third law says for every actionor force there is an equal and
opposite reaction, and what thatmeans is, if I wanna swim in
that direction forward, I needmy hand pushing that direction
back.
And so, if you can take thatconcept and imagine a pair of

(07:20):
handsets that you slide onto thehand, and so they're minimally
invasive, so they don'tinterfere with the fingers at
all and this little plastic potsits in the center of the palm
of the hand and, if you canimagine, taking 50 times a

(07:40):
second, detecting and andmeasuring first of all, how much
force you're pushing throughwith the hand, secondly, the
direction that the hand ismoving, thirdly, the speed the
hand is moving and fourth, theangle that the hand is facing.

(08:01):
At that point you can get thatdata and then pump it through
some incredibly sophisticatedalgorithms and then present it
in a way that says, of all youreffort that you're pushing
through your hands, here's howmuch, in percentage terms, isn't
are you using in a propulsivefashion.

(08:23):
Here's you're using laterallyleft fashion.
Here's how much you're usinglaterally left and right.
Here's how much you're pushingdown or, at the back end of the
stroke, pushing up.
And here's how much you'rewasting during the glide if
you're dropping your wrist oryour elbow and presenting the
palm of your hand to the water,so able to split it up and then

(08:45):
from there pump out a wholebunch of absolutely fascinating
information.
It means that the swimmer orthe athlete is then able to take
that, look at it, includingwhat their hand path is, make
changes and then look at theobjective data that comes out of
those changes to see what apositive impact it's had on

(09:08):
their swim.

Yeah, and I mean I've been a bit of a guinea
pig this past week testing themout myself.
So we're going to have a lookat some of my data, but before
we do that, I was going to saythat I've really enjoyed
swimming with them.
They don't actually interferewith the stroke at all.
They're very light and afteryou sort of turn them on and get
used to them, you don'tactually feel like it impedes

(09:29):
your stroke at all, so I thinkthat's a really positive thing.

Um, with people wearing them, which is great,
the vast feedback I get frompeople is notice them for the
first lap or maybe two, and thenI forgot that I had them on at
all.

Yes.

They become very unobtrusive and, like I say,
they don't interfere with thefingers at all, so the feel of
the water is impacted minimally.
Now we've still got someresearch to do to understand
exactly what impact, if any,they have on performance,
because you'd think that itcould potentially impact you

(10:06):
negatively a small amount.
So we're actually doing aresearch study at the moment
with the University of Newcastleto work out, with some cross
data with different athletes, tothen work out exactly what the
implications are to wear these.
And, as you say, they're verylight, so they weigh less than a

(10:28):
slice of bread each.

So, yeah, I think they're really well
engineered to to minimums I dotoo, and they actually fit into,
because when you actually swimyou've got that little cupping
of your hand and it fits inthere quite nicely.
It doesn't sort of feel likeit's like with paddles obviously
.
Um, they're quite, they arequite cumbersome and they don't
fit into everyone's hand, butthose seem to ergonomically fit

(10:52):
in quite nicely, which I wasvery happy to swim with them and
the obviously the paddles.

You're wearing them because they change the
force dynamics.
So the whole point of this isto not change the force dynamics
.
We want to measure what you'redoing without changing that
dynamic by sticking a paddlesurface on your fingers or over
your hands.
The other thing as well,danielle, that is relevant is

(11:19):
that they're now approved byWorld Aquatics for use in
competition in a pool.
They're not approved for openwater, they're approved for pool
swimming in competition.
So already I've had a couple ofathletes tell me that they've
used them in races.
As Kenneth has drilled into myhead for several years now, race

(11:42):
data is absolute gold If youcan get that race data.
So I'm looking forward to, atsome point, somebody standing up
at the olympics and it won't bein the final, it'll be around
with these on their hands andthe uh and the camera is all

(12:04):
going click, click, click andyes that would be revolutionary.

Yes, let's have a bit of a look at my data
and then people following alongcan can see what it's all about,
because I love the ease ofdoing it and then being able to
upload it to my phone.
I suppose looking at this andunderstanding it is going to
give a real insight into and Ican see see already that one
hand is quite different to theother.

Yeah.
So just to give you a veryquick explanation, what we've
got along down the left.
Here are your number of swimsthat you've done on, all done on
the 26th of April.
Here is your summary for thisparticular swim, which was just
one lap of a 50-metre pool.

(12:49):
The time is a function of thehandsets going in the water and
coming out of the water.
So if you dive off the blocksand then your hands into the
water, it's not going to measurethe time between your feet
leaving the blocks and yourhands in the water, between your
feet leaving the blocks andyour hands in the water.
So the time's not there to beabsolutely accurate for your
swim.
Likewise, when you touch thewall, it doesn't detect it with

(13:13):
the handsets, it's only when thehand comes out of the water.
At the end of the last strokeit switches off.
But the time is like accurateto the hundredth of a second.
If you use them the same way, soyou can compare your times as
you go.
You type the number of strokesfor the swim, your average
stroke rate across the swim,your distance per stroke for the

(13:33):
lap and your average force perstroke.
So how much you're pushing onaverage between both hands and
down here, where we've got bothhands are switched on.
What we're looking at here isyour impulse or the total force
per stroke on average, and soyou can see your left hand is
pushing as you said.
You've got a bit of animbalance going on here because

(13:54):
your left hand is pushing morethan your right hand and don't
default it.
A lot of people say, oh, shemust be left-handed.
No, it doesn't work, doesn'tnecessarily work that way, and
you can see.
We also show the stroke rate nowone of the things we can do is
we can click on this littlestroke icon here and now we can
look in the lap and we can seeevery stroke in that lap right

(14:18):
is blue, orange is left and youcan see you're running across
the top of your stroke rate andhow that fluctuated across the
course of the lap.
So, bearing in mind that thisis the total amount of force,
what we really want to know iswhere that force is being
applied.
Remember we talked aboutNewton's third law.
So we look at force field.

(14:39):
These are the six numbers herethat are the critical numbers.
These are the six numbers herethat are the critical numbers.
We have the impulse comingthrough again, the left impulse
of 2.1 and the right impulse ofalmost 1.7.
So those are the numbers thatcame through from here, from the
summary and then as well asthose impulses we have here, the

(15:01):
application of your energy.
And this, obviously, propulsion,is the big one.
So your hands can move in sixdirections in water.
They can move left, right, up,down, forward and back, and so
this is where we split that upand this is the biggie and the
important one is your propulsion.
And, in very layman's terms,the other five are robbing your

(15:26):
propulsion.
So don't get me wrong, you needto have some downward force and
you need to have a little bitof lateral force, but if you've
got too much, it's taking itstraight out of your propulsion.
And if we look at you here andwe think and I want to preface
this with this this is very newscience and very new to me, so

(15:52):
there's not a lot of old dataand to be for to fall back on.
So I can only give you, afterhaving looked at a lot of data
in the last 12, 18 months and alot of elite data, I can give
you a rough idea of what I thinkwould be something to aim for.

(16:12):
And it changes between asprinter and a distance swimmer,
and the difference is to dowith the high elbow catch and a
straight arm for a sprinter,because when you're swimming
with a straight arm, you'regoing to get by definition
you're going to get moredownward force here than if

(16:32):
you've got the high elbow catchand you're going over the barrel
, because you'll very quicklyand early get into that
propulsive position.
But regardless of both, it'sgood to have a little bit of
left and right, and so whenwe're talking both hands
combined, we think about 4% each.
But regardless of both, it'sgood to have a little bit of
left and right, and so whenwe're talking both hands

(16:53):
combined, we think about 4% each, 4% left happy days, you're on
a 4.
But you've got a bit too much onthe right.
You're sort of over in thedouble digits here 10% Upward
and hand drag.
Ideally both of them should bezero.
Hand drag is the opposite ofpropulsion, that's, the wrist
dropping and the elbow droppingin the glide phase, and ideally
you want that glide to continueto go down at a slight angle all
the way.
So we want that at zero, andupward as well.

(17:16):
If you can have your handperpendicular to the bottom of
the pool all the way throughyour straight to the end and
then lift out vertically, thenyou won't have upward force.
If, on the other hand, like me.
You've got awful technique andmy hand pushes up at the back
end.
I collect a lot of upward forceand I waste propulsive force

(17:37):
with it.
And so if you were four andfour and zero and zero, then
that leaves us 92 percentbetween propulsion and down.
And are you?
Are you a sprinter or adistance swim,Danielle?
um more of a middle, middledistance, middle distance, so
yeah for you, your, yourobjective should be to get your

(17:57):
propulsive up to the 70 to 75mark and your downward to 17 to
22.
So and again it's about.
It's about getting that highelbow catch going over the
barrel and getting into thatpropulsive position.
And then and we know that it'snot just the hand, it's the
whole paddle, including theforearm.

(18:18):
But the beauty is that whereverthe hand goes, the forearm
follows.
So the sooner you get into thatpropulsive position with the
hand, the sooner you'll becomepropulsive with your forearm.
But the purpose of the system isto say OK, if I were you, I'd
say right, I've got a couple ofchallenges here.
I've got, let's call it, 30%.

(18:40):
I can drop from downward intopropulsion if I can change my
technique because I've got toomuch downward force at the front
end of my stroke.
So I've got an opportunity totake 30% out of downward and
stick it into propulsion.
I've got an opportunity to takea little bit out of my right
wood and if I took 30 out of thedownward, that would now become

(19:01):
63.
And then, if I took five out ofthe downward, I'm almost I'm
pushing 70.
So then what you can do is youcan then hop back in the water,
make some changes, capture itand then look at what the
outcome of those changes are.
And I've got to tell you,danielle, the best way to do

(19:27):
this is what we call the fastfeedback loop, which entails if
you can put your phone at theend of the lane and you start in
the shallow end and you do twolaps and then stand in the
shallow end, download the datato your phone, look at this
slide and you'll see.
And if you, for example, you're33% here, if you made a change,

(19:48):
and then you might find the 33becomes 40 and the 48 downward
becomes 40, and you'd go okay,that's worked.
Now I need to do more, and youmake more and you do it again
and again and in a very shortperiod of time you'll find and I
did this with a swim coach inMichigan last year where,

(20:09):
together and it never occurredto me to do this in the pool,
and he was the one who said I'mgoing to put my phone down at
the end of the line this is aseven times Olympic coach and he
did two laps, did 100 metersand he was 26% propulsive.
This is a man who qualified forthe 1980 Olympics, right?

(20:31):
So he's not just a coach, he'san older man, but he was 26%
propulsive and I watched himover the course of one session
go 26, 33, 42, 53, 62%.
He went from 26 to 62%propulsive because he had, like
you, he had too much downwardbut he had a lot of lateral.

(20:53):
I mean, he was taught, you know, those days with the s very
much the s shape and obviouslyyou know if that hand's doing a
lot laterally like this, it'ssending you that way, it's not
sending you that way.
So by the end of it it wasreally interesting because when
he started he had this reallywide S going on.
When he finished he still hadan S, but it was much narrower

(21:16):
and he also maintained the handfacing back towards the feet all
the way through and thatchanged his data and changed his
stroke dramatically and madehim so much better so
interesting?

because, yes, I was.
I was definitely taught that uhs shape and, although I think
to myself I've changed it, Iobviously haven't.

And well, let's have a look.
Let's have a look, becausewe've still got to do a bit of a
deeper dive.
Let's call out a couple ofthings for you, because this is
both hands combined.
What's really good is we canturn the left off and we can see
.
What's interesting, yourpropulsion is almost exactly the
same on both.
You know you are 33% on theleft and you're 31% or 32% on

(22:03):
the right, so it's very, veryequal, equal.
Your downward on the right is52, your downward on the left is
45, but your left hand has got.
That's where that right hand isgoing.
So you've got a little leftmoving to the right, um, but you
don't have a lot of right.
Moving to the left, you've gota bit there, but not that.

(22:24):
So you're able to focus on eachhand and you can then not
diagnose, but you can see wherethose opportunities are the most
for one hand versus the other,which is great.
If you are so inclined and thereare some data whack jobs out
there then you can go over hereand click on the stroke icon and

(22:46):
now you can look at everysingle stroke and you can look
at this data for every stroke ofevery lap and see how it
changes and see how thatpropulsion is moving around.
You know we're at 40, 36, 29,30.
So you can see 27.
You can see across the courseof the lab how that changes.
But really this joint view orjust a single hand view gives

(23:13):
you plenty of information tothen as a starting point.
The next thing we like to lookat is the hand path, and we
present the hand path here inthree different views.
So we have the side on and, bythe way, the red is the glide

(23:34):
phase, the blue is the pool andthe gray is the recovery, and
then when we go to the nextstroke, the blue changes to
orange.
So we've got the side on view.
We've got the overhead view view.
We've got the overhead view andthen we've got a head on view,
as if you were swimming towardsus, so you can look at every
single one of these, and we'vegot a tiny slider here for the

(23:57):
stroke.
So this stroke took 1.73seconds from start to finish.
That's, hand entry to handentry, 1.73 seconds.

And where that little red dot?

is is where your hand is at the start.
At time equals zero and so attime equals zero over here.
That's the red dot.
Now if I move that red dot downto say halfway through the
stroke, you'll see this is whereyour hand is at that point in
time.
So we're able to not only mapthe hand path of the stroke but

(24:29):
we're also able to map theposition of the hand at any
point in time during that stroke.
So that's the hand path.
Where it's probably best tolook at what's going on is in
the consistency chart.

And in the consistency chart.

What we see here is we see every stroke in that
lap overlaid, one on top of eachother.
Now I look for two things.
I like to see symmetry, andwhat's interesting about this,
daniela, is and what'sinteresting about this, danielle
, is, there's not much going inthe way of symmetry.
If we look at the overhead here, you'll see your right hand has

(25:12):
got a different path to yourleft and it's not unusual.
But in a perfect world you'dlike to see them and, and I'd
say, most elite athletes havewhat I call the question mark.
So it sort of starts at the top,comes out a bit, comes in and
then goes straight back.
So it's like a question mark, amirrored question mark, and so

(25:37):
normally I see that quitesymmetrical and you can see here
that you've got, you know, somecrossover here, happening with
both hands and remembering inparticular it was your left hand
has got more right hand force.
But we'll get to that soon andwe'll have a look at that.

(25:57):
But also, side on, it's reallyinteresting because you've got a
very different depth profile.
Now I I caution people to drawconclusions about breathing too
quickly.
Having said that, somethingtells me that you're breathing
to the left, do you know, nobreathing.
To the right we're breathing tothe right, well, it's really

(26:19):
interesting because you'reactually going deeper on your
right hand.
Normally when I this, it tendsto be that when someone's
breathing to the right, theirleft hand goes deep, their left
shoulder drops, and as theirleft shoulder drops, their hand
goes deeper.
And it's the same the other way.
If you're breathing to the left, the right shoulder drops, but

(26:42):
there's a different pattern.
What I'd suggest you do isstick a snorkel on and do it
again, take the head rotationout of it completely and see if
this changes.
And ideally you want balance ina perfect world.
And so if you can get thatbalance and reframe your hand

(27:02):
path to give you a balance bothoverhead and side on, then
reintroduce breathing.
And as you know, you know thewhole point about breathing is
to minimize that head rotation.
You see just the corner of themouth come out above the
waterline to just try andminimize the impact to the

(27:25):
stroke and everything else.
Then you can work onintroducing that and minimizing
whatever happens.
And again, the beauty of it isyou can see exactly what the
outcome of whatever changes youdo in the stroke and you can
play with this.
You can turn one hand off here.
In fact, we can turn both handsoff and then we can build it

(27:45):
stroke by stroke if you like, soyou can see if there's any
order to how those shapes aremoving or changing, by just
building one on top of eachother.
Or if you want to do in a 50meter pool, 25 meters full on
and then 25 meters slow, orwhatever, you can do that and
you can spot patterns oranything like that.

(28:07):
Right, yes, so this is ourconsistency.
Stroke phases I'm not going tospend any time on, because
stroke phases, frankly, isreally for the people that are
looking to shave a tenth of asecond off when you're a biomech
or an Olympic level coach withan Olympic level swimmer.
They'll look at this data andthey'll work on it, because we

(28:28):
basically look at you know eachof the phases in hundreds of a
second and split them up,looking to see what's going on
on a lap average and also on anindividual stroke.
But this is the next one is ourforce versus time, and this is
the engine room of the system.
This is not just how much forcewe're producing, but exactly

(28:51):
where in the stroke we'reproducing that force.
And when I look at this, I seea couple of interesting things
and I'm going to show you how toread it first.
So I'm going to turn off onehand and we're just going to
look at the right hand to start.
Oh, and I'll just quickly showyou.
So this is your breakout stroke.
At the beginning we don't countthat.

(29:14):
We don't count the breakoutstroke as a stroke.
So this is stroke one here andstroke two and so on.
But I'll include it for thisand then I'll blow this up a bit
and just to show you how we canread this, the three phases
that we're looking for.
Right between here and herewe're detecting no force at all
Hands in recovering hands out ofthe water.

(29:35):
So this is where the handenters the water for the glide.
This is the glide here, andwhat you'll notice here, daniel,
is your negative in the glide,that's your hand drag.
So you've got a little bit ofhand drag, as you can see, from
here to here.
Then we start pulling and we'recatching here and we pull and

(29:58):
then you're hitting peakpropulsion, because we're on the
propulsive vector only, andhere you're hitting propulsive
force peak and then something'shappening and it's all dropping
off.
It's coming down almost to zero, and then something's happening
and it's going back up againand then the stroke finishes and
we go into recovery and then westart the glide and catch and

(30:19):
so on.
So it's very easy to read thethree phases in your force
versus time.
I know most people when theylook at this chart they go, oh
my God, you've got to be ascientist to understand this.
No, you don't.
It's really very simple.
So what we're seeing here, asyou can see the pattern on

(30:42):
almost all of these strokes,excuse me, is this double peak?
And what this is telling us,daniel, is this area, this
valley in here, that's lostpropulsion and I know what it is
.
I know what it is and I'll showyou.

And remembering I haven't seen this
done before.

But the beauty about the system is we can look
at propulsive, but we can alsooverlay lateral force as well.
And so when I pump this up andshow you how to read the lateral
force and this is ourpropulsive force, as you can see
in the dark blue and then thisturquoise is our lateral force

(31:24):
and, as I showed you with thepropulsive, when it's positive
it means the hand's moving backtowards the feet and when it
goes into negative in the glide,it means the hands pushing the
other direction.
Similarly, similarly with thelateral forces, when it's

(31:45):
positive it means the hands arefacing outwards and when it's
negative the hands are facinginwards.
So you can map what the hand'sdoing all the way through the
stroke.
So let's have a look at thisstroke here Remember, this is

(32:06):
where the hand enters the waterand you've got a little bit of
hand drag, just a little bit ofhand drag going, but at the same
time we've got positive lateralforce.
So not only and I'll exaggeratehere not only have we got the
hand drag, but the hand's facingoutwards.
So when you're doing your glideit's starting like that and at

(32:29):
this point it's rotated.
Now and then as it starts topull, you've got a bit of inward
force happening.
But here and it's reallyinteresting when you look at
this, because what you're seeinghere is right there on that
lateral force that hand has donethat, it's changed direction,

(32:54):
and that change of directionhere means you drop off your
force.
So if you imagine, as you'repulling, if your hand rotates,
you're losing water and as youlose water you lose propulsion.
So the impact has to be thatyour body slows down, it
decelerates and then it rotatesback and then it's in the phase

(33:20):
where pull becomes push, whichtends to be below the shoulder

(33:44):
as it comes in and it rotates.
Interesting to see this littlechange down here in lateral
force, which is a change whichis like a little wobble, and
maybe that's daniel, it could bea, it could be a strength thing
, because if you're not strongenough to hold water through the

(34:04):
full phase of the stroke,something's got to give, and it
tends to be the hand rotates andslips.
It might be something to dowith your hand path and your
hand might be rotating.
It might come out and rotateand then come in significantly.
We should have a look at theleft hand and see what the left

(34:25):
hand yeah, this is reallyinteresting.
In fact, look, it's interesting, isn't?
Look at?
Look at this lateral.
It's like a mirror, isn't it?
It is, you know, here whereyou're losing your propulsion,
and then down here, look whereit bottoms out and then pops
back up.
You can see.
It's the change in lateralforce here.

(34:45):
Same story here.
You know it's a real and andthe beauty about this.
So look at, look at that.
You know, this is stuff thatnobody can see and you can't see
your video either.
This is data that you can seeand you can't see on video
either.
This is data that you've got tohave something like this to be
able to see quite clearly what'sgoing on.

(35:05):
You can then, if you want, youcan synchronise this with video
too, which is just awesome.
So you can synchronise it withvideo and you can then go frame
by frame and move, and that'llmove the pointer across and
it'll move the video frame byframe, and and that'll move the
the pointer across and it'llmove the video frame by frame,
and then you can see.
So some people who are veryvisual learners, you know,

(35:25):
particularly kids who don'tbelieve what the coach is
telling them, right?
So when you show them somethinglike this and then you show
them on the video and you cansee that hand rotate just as
it's doing here, and they go oh,okay, now I believe you yeah,
it's.
It's such powerful data, so it'samazing now the other thing we
can do is we can turn thelateral off.

(35:46):
We can look at vertical too,and so with vertical force, just
as with the others, when we'renegative down here that's
downward, and so you can see,here hand goes in the water for
the glide.
Again you've got that hand draghappening there, but then
you've got this downward forcehappening here at the front end
of the stroke and then you loseit here and it's interesting

(36:10):
again that it coincides withyour drop of propulsion and then
at the back, see this littlebit at the back.
It's only a little bit, it'snot much, it's nothing to worry
about.
And if I were you, I'd befocusing more on, you know, the
the right hand lateral forcethat we saw on the left hand,
and you know how do you get,because you can see you've got a

(36:32):
lot of downward force going onhere.
How do I transition a lot ofthat downward force which might
be, you know, maybe you'redropping your elbow a bit, I
don't know.
And if you are dropping yourelbow at the front end, then
that hand tends to sink a littlebit like that, as opposed to

(36:52):
the high elbow and bringing theshoulder into play and going
over that barrel.
It's a bit hard to diagnoseexactly, but you've got
something here that you can lookout for.
Where it gets really interestingis when we go on to the last
one, because this is where weget to look at a number of these

(37:12):
things together.
Again, we've got here thestroke path, so we select a
stroke.
We've got here the stroke path,so we select a stroke.
We've got the stroke path andagain we can look at it side, on
overhead, or head on view whenI want to look at lateral forces
.
I want the head on view.
When I want to look at verticalforces, I want the side on view

(37:32):
.
So we're going to look at thelateral here.
I'm going to turn the lateralon and this is now.
And over here we've got ourslider again.
But this time, as I move thisslider, it not only moves that
red dot, but it moves the redline, and so you can see, as we
move here, that red line.

(37:54):
So let's go to here and we'repulling, and there's not a lot
of lateral force at play at allthere.
And here's where we're hittingour peak force that's about to
drop off and you can see.
Here's where we've got thatchange in lateral force.
And because it's going to comedown here, that's inward and

(38:15):
that inward coincides.
You can see where the hand isat that point.
It coincides with that hand notonly rotating but moving
inwards as well.
So as it moves, inwards iswhere we lose our propulsion.
And then here, remember I said,when pull becomes push, which
tends to happen below theshoulder, you can see right here

(38:37):
where it is, because it's aboutto go straight back.
And as we go, straight back.
look what happens here.
We go back up.
Now you've got a couple oflittle wobbles going on.
In the meantime You've got acouple of little wobbles down
here, which has caused you somemore little valleys, but I
wouldn't be so much worriedabout that little valley.

(38:57):
The opportunity here is thisbig valley.
That big valley is caused bythat hand.
I would suggest not only comingin on the hand path but facing
inwards too, and as it's doingthat, you've lost your
propulsion all the way throughto the end.
And then here's where it exitsthe water and you can see here
where we come out at no forceand then you've got the recovery

(39:21):
just there.
So this is the view that enablesyou to look at in 50th of a
second increments, thecombination of the hand path,
the hand position and the forcesbeing generated in multiple
vectors.
It's really really powerful asto what you can see.

(39:43):
And if I look at the left right, same story.
You know, here you've gotinward force and you can see
here that hand is moving rightinward there and at the same
time it's generating this inwardforce here, and then right here
, is about to drop off the cliff.
And where it drops off thecliff and a bit in here, and

(40:06):
that hand position changesslightly, and then here again
it's about to come straight back, or near enough straight back,
which is then going to push itback up to maximum propulsion,
exit the water and recovery.

So this is the one where you can really dig
in very deep and look atexactly what my hand's doing on
each stroke yeah, I mean suchpowerful feedback and I love
what you said about thebiofeedback of having it at the
side of the pool, because Ithink you know you can do those
and come home and upload themall.
But if you're not having thatconstant feedback about what's

(40:46):
happening in the stroke, youcan't change it, because I'm a
bit of a visual learner myself.
So seeing that is greatfeedback, I'm going to try that
next time and put it at the sideof the pool and get some
constant feedback and see if Ican change that.
I'm very conscious of that kindof I do that kind of action
definitely, but I didn't realiseI was losing so much water and

(41:09):
propulsion in doing so.

And there's a guy that I lean on quite a lot in
the us, a guy called jonteskinner.
Now jonte held the world recordin the 70s for the 100.
He never competed in theolympics because he's south
african.
So in the 70s, with apartheid,he was excluded.
He then went on to become headcoach of the team usa in the

(41:35):
early 2000s and jonte said to me, he me, he said Jamie, he said
we all need a little bit oflateral force.
You know that whole feeling forthe water and getting a bit of
lateral.
And it was Jonti was the onewho best who articulated that.
4% and 4%.
You know, he said to me, jamie,I think what feels right to me
is in that three to five percentwindow for the left and the

(41:58):
right hand in the combined viewon the force field.
And so it's, it's.
It's not a question of saying wewant to become automations that
just, you know, hand comes in,goes straight back, because
we've got to, we've got toswitch on muscles.
Yeah, I mean.
That's the other thing.
I'm constantly asked, daniel,oh, how do I compare with kyle
charmers?
And I I say no, no, no, thissystem doesn't compare you with

(42:21):
somebody else, this systemcompares you with you.
I mean, we're all keen to seewhat they look like.
But let me tell you, everybody'svery different, because we're
only talking about one factorhere, which is the hand, which
is propulsion.
We're not talking about kick,we're not talking about body
drag, we're not talking abouthip roll and we're certainly not

(42:42):
talking about individualflexibility.
I mean, you can imagine whatsomeone like Phelps is like, you
know that massive wingspan andhow flexible he is in his
shoulders and where he switcheson particular muscles at
different parts of the stroke,but let alone the kick.
So they've got other thingsthey bring to the table.

(43:04):
So you know looking, and not tomention the fact that, and
particularly women, are reallygood at slipping through water
beautifully and streamliningbeautifully, whereas blokes like
me, I pull a lot of force, butI have to because my swim
position isn't beautiful andflat.

(43:25):
I'm sort of I'm not quite, youknow, fred Flintstone with my
toes tickling the bottom of thepool.
I'm anything but beautiful.
So I have to make up for thatwith brute force, whereas women
being a lot, lighter and alsowomen's fat content, make them
slightly more buoyant than men,and and and they can streamline

(43:46):
better.
Women have got other aspects andother attributes that they
bring to this.
So comparing people with peopledoesn't work.
But looking at myself and how,what my objectives are and what
changes I'm going to make to tryand get to those objectives,
and then some of those that'syeah, definitely, I hear what

(44:08):
you're saying.

I mean I look at the, the two differences
between my left and my right andI know that I've had shoulder
troubles in my left, so somesome of that.
Obviously they they mirrored alittle bit in the shape, but
they were different in the depth, as you pointed out.
But I think looking at whatyou've got up on screen now, in
trying to get those forces alittle bit more equal and not

(44:30):
have that drop off, is probablywhat I need to concentrate on,
not worry so much about thosetwo initial diagrams being
exactly the same, because Ithink that with the injury
that's going to affect it hasaffected my flexibility a little
bit and probably a little bitwith the strength as well.
But I think addressing where myhand is going is a good, really

(44:52):
good starting point.

And let me tell you you're dead right, because
if you've got a physicalimpairment, it leads to one of
two things you either accept itand just that's the way it is,
or, alternatively, it might thenbring in an interesting
conversation with a physio aboutdepending on where that injury

(45:15):
is.
I've got a chap who does amarathon swimming where that
injury is.
I mean, I've got a chap whodoes a marathon swimming who's
been using this and he had asignificant shoulder surgery and
he has two very different handparts like incredibly different
hand parts, but he's had toaccept it.
That's just the way it is yeah,I mean it's.

It's got that application as well and
obviously when you're returningfrom injury, you can compare it
with that data that you hadbefore.

Precisely.
And hopefully you'll see thatcome closer.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

No, that's such amazing feedback.
It sort of blows my mind.
I thought I was actuallyswimming quite well, but
obviously not.

As I keep saying to people, these are not
problems, these areopportunities for improvement.

Exactly, yeah , and I love being able to sort
of have that feedback so that Ican make a change, which I think
is really valuable.
And I think that a lot ofmaster swimmers, a lot of our
listeners, swim by themselves orswim with a group of people.
They don't even have a coach.
So this kind of information isso valuable to them, being able

(46:22):
to investigate that, and I thinka lot of master swimmers are
very motivated and triathletesas well to improve their
swimming stroke and technique.
So I see this kind of thing asthe way forward, particularly
for people without any coachesand high-level coaches.
Our Australian swimmers andother Olympic teams around the
world have that the way forward,particularly for people without
any coaches and high levelcoaches.
Our Australian swimmers andother Olympic teams around the
world have that informationthere.

(46:43):
But, as you say, we've neverhad this before, but I think
it's really valuable.

And that's why I said you know, our whole
business principle is how do wetake this sort of and you're
right, this hasn't even beenavailable to Olympic swimmers.
They have a thing called atether line.
So in fact the Aussie guys havegot one.
They call Rex because it wasnamed after Rex Hunt, because
it's effectively it's a fishingline that connects to the back

(47:09):
of the cosy of the swimmer andthey dive in and start swimming
and it runs out against a spooland it's got some sort of
mechanism that measures theacceleration and deceleration as
the swimmer goes out.
But obviously when you've gotsomething like that, the longer
it goes out you end up with abit of a belly in it.
It becomes less accurate thefurther you go, whereas we've

(47:32):
engineered the tech into thesethings to become far more
accurate and also available foreverybody.
Because you know you've got tobe in the Queensland Academy of
Sport or in En-Swiss or or withSwimming Australia to have
access to recs and then you'vegot the setup time and the
biomex and all that sort ofstuff.
The philosophy of the businessis well, how do we create

(47:56):
systems for the elite, usingtech that then are available for
not the mass but, you know, forthose that are sort of serious
about competition, and thatcompetition doesn't need to be
me racing against somebody else,it can just be me getting
better myself and it feedsitself.
So yeah, it's going to take awhile to become ubiquitous.

(48:22):
I mean, you mentionedtriathletes.
There is an equivalent for abike.
The bike's got a thing called apower meter and you know
they've been out for 25-oddyears and it's interesting
because these are not cheap,daniel.
There's a lot of money investedin these, and so these things

(48:42):
retail for between $1,000 and$1,350 Aussie a pair.
The difference is the $1,000pair has got a 15-minute
recording chip in it.
The $1,350 pair has got a90-minute recording chip, and so
that's your hardware cost.
Then on top there's amembership fee and a lot of
people say, well, if I'm goingto spend a grand, if I'm

(49:03):
spending a grand, I don't expectto pay a monthly fee as well.
Sorry, but there are.
There's a lot of data costs,because everything the data, the
video, everything stored in thecloud, every interaction, every
download, backwards andforwards there's a significant
amount of data costs, not tomention the ongoing innovation,
new functionality, because we'reconstantly rolling out more and

(49:27):
more features and functionality.
I mean that's just the way.
I mean already we do threestrokes, we do freestyle
butterfly and backstroke.
We will do breaststroke, but itwon't be till later this year.
It's a significant change inbreaststroke.
But there's a monthly fee aswell, and in Aussie terms it's
$200 a year or $20 a month, andso it's not cheap.

(49:48):
But what you can do is you canhave a number of people share
one pair of handsets as long asthey've got their own membership
, so it'll cost them $200 a year.
And then if, for example, asthey've got their own membership
, so it'll cost them 200 bucks ayear.
And then if, for example, ifyou've got five of them plopped
together and each chuck in 200bucks, then you know you can buy
the the 15 minute for athousand bucks and then another

(50:11):
couple hundred a year now I gettriathletes saying, oh, it's
too's too much money.
It's too much money.
And this is coming fromsomebody who spent 15 grand on a
bike, 1,500 on a wetsuit,$4,000, $5,000 on a new set of
wheels, $4,000 on a new saddleand 1,500 plus on a power meter.

(50:34):
And I say to them you realisethat power meter is nowhere near
as sophisticated as thesethings.
There's this sort of mentalblock with some of them that
yeah, but swimming's meant to befree.
I expect to spend money oncycling.
I mean, cycling costs a lot ofmoney.
I get that, but swimmingshouldn't cost.
And so it's the same withcompetition swimmers.

(50:56):
You know once you've got yourgoggles and your cosy.
But you know if you look at thetech suits, what do you pay for
?
Tech suits these days?

They're getting up to $800.

I was going to say $600, $700, $800.

Yep.

How long do they?

last.
Not more than one competitionreally, although as a Masters
athlete, I'd, you know, drawmine out longer than that.

You can squeeze it, but at the end of the day,
our data in the US says thatcompetition swimmers are
generally spending around $2,000a year on their tech suits.
Well, I would suggest a one-offpurchase of these for $1,000 is

(51:40):
just as good, if not a better,investment that just keeps going
.
So they're not cheap.
No-transcript.
A whole bunch of videos thatexplain operating, reading data,
all that sort of stuff, and youcan appreciate.
Eventually, daniel, eventuallywe'll be able to integrate

(52:05):
artificial intelligence andmachine learning, and so when
you take your data and if youwere looking at your data,
eventually the system will popup and say hey, daniel, you know
you've got a bit of a challengehere.
With your downward force,you're pushing too much at the
front and you need to be gettingover the barrel.
And if you click here, it willtake you to a video that will

(52:26):
give you a drill to show youwhat you can do.

So I mean, that's where it's going to go.
That's where it will go forsure.
Yeah, Do you see?
I know that swimming's not theonly thing you're investing in.
Do you see other sports thatyou're going to branch out to,
or you're just focusing ongetting this one as good as it
can be?

so we tend we tend not to want to be
pigeonholed into a specificsport, he having specifically
done one in just a second.
So if you look at, for example,we've got another device which
is a portableelectroencephalogram, an EEG.
The sign shows that a concussedbrain responds differently to a

(53:10):
non-concussed brain to certainevocations through light.
So it looks like a virtualreality headset.
It flashes lights in your eyesand there are five sensors that
sit at the base of the visualcortex and they measure the
brain's response to thoseflashing lights at a certain
amplitude of 15 ohm.
And when you can see what thebrain's reaction is, then you

(53:35):
can say there's a highlikelihood of you being
concussed.
And this system has only justbeen approved by the Food and
Drug Administration in theUnited States, the FDA, and
we're about to go through theprocess here with the TGA.
So there's one.
So it's multi-sport everyfootball coach you can imagine,

(53:55):
cycling, boxing, martial arts,you name it.
There's that.
We've got another device indevelopment which is a little
sweat wearable.
So for athlete performance,optimal hydration is really
important, and there is a directcorrelation between your

(54:16):
hydration levels and your sweatlevels.
And so not only do we measureyour volume of sweat, so we can
tell you exactly how much you'vesweat through your total body.
But within that sweat, wemeasure the concentration of
five different analytes, so wecan tell you potassium, calcium,

(54:37):
magnesium, sodium and chloride,how much of those you need to
replenish and how much volume inorder to get you back to
optimal, optimal hydration.
So again, basketball, cricket,football, rugby, running, gym,
whatever any sport that involvessweating, it won't work in

(55:00):
water.
It won't work in water, butevery other sport.
So our philosophy really is youknow how do we create these
products and these technologies?
All under the one brand, whichis EO, and EO, by the way, is
Latin for progress.

I was going to ask you that what it stood
for.

Yeah, Because we're all about our DNA is about
accelerating human progressthrough sport.
So it's not just acceleratinghuman progress in sport, but
through sport.
So we use sport as a lens tolook at society and how sport
makes society a better placethrough more than just good

(55:39):
health.
You know.
How can sport help society toeradicate society from things
like homophobia, you know,racism and all that sort of
stuff.
So there are ways that we canuse our brand for what we think
is social good.
So that's sort of the primarygoal eventually is as a brand,

(56:04):
how we operate.
But our first step is thisreally cool little.

Really cool little device.
Yeah, yeah, and I know youmentioned a little bit about
sort of homophobia and makingthings better in the world
through a sports lens and I knowwhen you were prior to this,
you were a CEO of Skins, whichis, for those people listening
who don't know, was acompression activewear company.

(56:28):
I know at that time you weresort of instrumental in
withdrawing some sponsorshipfrom different companies because
of those kind of things.
Can you tell us a little bitabout what made you sort of get
to that conclusion and why youmoved on from that position?

So, just as we articulate our DNA here around
accelerating human progressthrough sport, progress through
sport With Skims, it was aboutfueling the true spirit of
competition.
We recognised that sport hasgot this.

(57:09):
So sport is so powerful.
It's not just about whathappens on the rectangle of the
football field or the court, thebasketball court or the
swimming pool.
It's about the role that sportplays in society in general.
You know, my grandfather was aeastern suburbs chook supporter.
My father was a chooks fanatic.
I'm a chooks fanatic.
That sort of thing, how it getspassed down from generation to

(57:29):
generation, and the influencethat sport has on us and how we
form our attitudes.
And you know, one of thefundamentals behind the skins
brand was always um, looking athow we can use skins to go into

(57:49):
society and and change someviews.
So whether it was to do with thegay marriage debate or but
before that, I went to anorganisation in London called
Stonewall Stonewall is this LGBTadvocacy group and they had
rolled out this Rainbow Lacescampaign within the Premier
League in the football to bringrainbow laces to Australia.

(58:13):
And so we created the RainbowRound of Sport and had elite
athletes in all codes, plus morethan just football.
We had surfers, we hadnetballers, we had all these
people, for one weekend a year,would place their laces on their
boots.
I say, surfers, surfers, wraptheir leg ropes with rainbow

(58:35):
laces, right?
We had swimmers who werewrapping them around, right?
So this was their way of saying.
You know, homophobia has got noplace in society or in sport,
and so we did that for a coupleof years and we distributed 300
000 pairs of rainbow laces, andit was a a great way to help all

(58:57):
the other work that's beingdone by other organisations.
One of the things that we did aswell was we sponsored teams and
we had a.
We just signed a sponsor Ithink it was 2013 with Melbourne
Storm.
This literally two weeks afterwe signed the sponsorship deal.
Then it all blew up and if youlooked at our agreement with

(59:19):
them because we had a what's theword?

a manifesto.

We had a little manifesto that articulated what
we stood for as a brand and Imade sure in every one of our
sponsorship agreements it says,you know, party A Melbourne
Storm, party B skins whereasparty B belongs believes in the
following and then it was ourmanifesto which talked about the
true spirit of competition andwhat we stand for.

(59:46):
And then it went into thecommercial detail and all that
rubbish.
So there was an absolute clearvision in our organisation that
we partnered with individuals,clubs, teams, associations and
that at some point we were gonnacome across some cheats.
And I honestly I thought it wasgonna probably come from

(01:00:10):
something.
I thought it's, you know, mostlikely it'll blow up in cycling.
But the one that really blew upwas Melbourne Storm and they
were done for salary cap abuseand so this sort of came out and
I remember it came out.
I was living in Switzerland andI woke up in the morning and you
know it was all over the paperssort of blown up overnight and

(01:00:33):
by three o'clock that day, my inswitzerland, I set off a
termination agreement tomelbourne storm saying and and
it was a we, we moved veryquickly because of there was no
shades of gray, there was nodoubt.
You know it was.
It was quite clear, and it wasegregious in its nature as well.
So, and it was, it was.

(01:00:55):
Commercially, it was adifficult decision to make, but
when you believe in somethingyou know and you treat yourself.
You can't sit there and say, oh,but gee, this deal was so good.
You know, I really want to, Ireally want to say you can't,
your integrity reasons, you'vejust got to say no.

Danielle Spurling (01:01:13):
I admire that integrity so much and I'd like
to see that more in more of ourleaders these days.
But I think you youdemonstrated that then and and
also with your involvement inthe Change Now Cycling, which
was the big drug scandal incycling.
Can you give us a bit of a bitof a your take on on what
happened there?

Jaimie Fuller (01:01:30):
So 2012 was when it blew up with Lance and the
UCI is the global governing bodyof cycling and, like everybody,
I thought, well, you know, thisis terrible, they're going to
have to come and do somethingabout it.

(01:01:50):
And they did nothing.
So I ended up publishing anopen letter which I put in the
Sydney Morning Herald.
So I ended up publishing anopen letter which I put in the
Sydney Morning Herald I think itwas a full page letter in the
Sydney Morning Herald thatbasically said to, was addressed
to the president of the UCI andsaid do your job or step aside
and let somebody in who can dotheir job, and that created a
huge amount of interest in thecycling industry.

(01:02:13):
It didn't create interest inthe cycling industry.
It didn't create interest inthe Joe public, but in cycling
it did.
And the next thing you know isI was contacted by a guy who
used to be the head of ASADA,the Australian Sports
Anti-Doping Agency, and he putme together with the CEO of
USADA, the US Anti-Doping Agency, and WADA, the World

(01:02:36):
Anti-Doping Agency, and WADA,the World Anti-Doping Agency,
and then that sort of set off,this chain reaction which
culminated in me bringing, Ithink, about 15 or 20 people who
were sort of leaders in theworld of cycling came together
in London for a two-dayconference which culminated in a
press conference and publisheda pathway to change the culture

(01:03:00):
of cycling.
Because it turns out, and whatthen became clear is it wasn't a
Lance Armstrong problem.
Lance was a symptom, he wasn'tthe problem.
The problem was the culture ofdoping in cycling, which needed
changes at the top level of theUCI, and we advocated and
campaigned for the president tolose his job and he did at the

(01:03:21):
next election, which was I mean,I think it was the second time
in 35 years the president of aninternational federation had
lost an election.
It had happened once before inboxing, I think in 72.
And then we made it happen inthe UCI.
So it was one of those thingswhere one of the things we were

(01:03:43):
trying to do was to show brandsthat you can play an active role
and you should play an activerole, and if you don't, then I
think you're complicit.
And we see this a lot,particularly with the big boys,
with the Adidas and Nikesikes,that when you see like awful,
appalling behavior from thelikes of the, the executive

(01:04:06):
committee of fifa, and we knownow the corruption that was
going on and we saw six or sevenleading football officials
arrested in Zurich at sixo'clock in the morning at the
Bar-O-Lak Hotel.
You know where you've got thisbuilt on, this massive, this
edifice of corruption.
And you talk about intent andleadership.

(01:04:29):
Well, these guys are all inthere for the money for
themselves.
I mean, that's all they'reabout is just how do I, how do I
?
And they wrought the system atthe expense of everybody else.
And when you look at grassrootshere in football terms, you
know if you've got kids in NewSouth Wales or Queensland to go

(01:04:53):
through an elite pathway,they're paying three and a half
four grand a year.
And that's money that is beingstolen at the very top by these
people who were proven, and someof them are in jail and others
bound for life and all sorts ofstuff, corruption, that goes on.
So I think that there'sabsolutely a role that brands

(01:05:15):
could play and should play, andwhen you see this sort of stuff
and so with football, because Idid a campaign there called New
FIFA now and where I was reallysuccessful, I went to, this was
leading up to the World Cup inQatar, in Doha, and I flew to
Doha and I got smuggled intolabor camps where there were

(01:05:39):
these migrant workers living inthe most disgusting and
appalling conditions.
So I took footage and Iinterviewed workers from Nepal,
bangladesh, pakistan, northKorea, I mean from these
countries where their poverty isrife, and they were taken to

(01:06:01):
Qatar to work where the firstthing that happens to them is
they have their passport takenoff them so they're trapped A
lot of cases.
They're not paid right, theyjust don't get their money and
there's no system for them toaddress that.
So anyway I got all this footageand I went back to london and
we we cut a short commercial, ashort film called the hypocrisy

(01:06:22):
world cup, and what we did waswe targeted the seven fifa
sponsors and basically we saiddear coca-cola you talk about,
you know, advocating for humanrights, how do you reconcile
your sponsorship of FIFA andFIFA corruptly awarding the
World Cup to this nation andtheir treatment of these workers

(01:06:45):
?
And at that stage theprojections were that there were
going to be something like fiveand a half thousand people die
on the building of the World Cupinfrastructure, on the building
of the World Cup infrastructure, which extends beyond the
stadiums, by the way, it's notjust stadiums, it's everything
else.

(01:07:09):
And we were successful ingetting Coca-Cola, visa and
McDonald's to back our call forSepp Blatter to resign as
president of FIFA.
So there are ways that you canif, if it comes from, it's got
to come from a culture or a dna,that is that brand.
For us it was.
It was about fueling the truespirit of competition, which
gave us a voice to do withgovernance and to do with

(01:07:32):
integrity, and to call it outand to celebrate it.
And the whole thing was we wantto celebrate the great stuff,
but you can't be scared aboutalso calling out the bad stuff
when you say it.

Yeah, absolutely.
I mean there's so much sportswashing for want of a better
word going on, like with theLive Golf you know Saudi Arabia
backing that and who knows.
I mean obviously the big thingthat happened in swimming in the
past few weeks with the Chinesedrug scandal and what's
happening at WADA.
I mean, is that sport washing,what's happening there?

(01:08:07):
I mean, what are your thoughtson that whole scandal?

Look, it's really tricky.
I had a very good relationshipwith WADA back at.
You know, this is sort of about10 years ago, and then I, by
the way, I even went on to doanother campaign with remember,
ben johnson 1988.
So I went on to do a five-weekworld tour with ben, where ben

(01:08:30):
was fronting a um, a campaigncalled choose the right train,
to basically say, look, don't dowhat I did.
I did it.
I got caught, my whole life wasruined, I lost everything.
And that sort of culminated inpresenting a petition to the IOC

(01:08:52):
, and that petition was aboutsaying we need to fund WADA
properly, and at that stage,wada's annual budget was 26
million US dollars a year.
Now, that was half the salaryof Kobe Bryant.
So this is 2013,.
Right?
So one basketball player andWADA's full budget for the year

(01:09:14):
was half his salary.
So I sort of was advocatingback then for WADA to be better
funded, not just by IOC but alsoby government, and to be given
the tools to be able toimplement the checks and
balances that need to be put inplace.
And then subsequently, we knowwhat happened with Russia in the
2018 Winter Olympics.

(01:09:35):
I know, I know, it's just youcouldn't.
If you wrote this stuff.
Let's say you were looking itup, but my relationship with
WADA has been finished for along time so I don't, I don't
know, I can't, I can't reallysay you know, when WADA's come
out and said what they've saidabout this being a genuine

(01:09:57):
contamination food issue, Idon't know.
I read dennis cotrell'sinterview yes, I read that too
you know where um he's sayinglook, you know there is no way
in the world this is going on.
But as someone said to me theother day, well, dennis wouldn't
necessarily know he wouldn'tknow that'd be hidden from him

(01:10:17):
if it was happening.
Yeah, you also mentioned.
You know we talked before aboutMichelle Ford.
Michelle, really well, you knowthere's a lady who was
disadvantaged back in the 70sbecause of a national program
and I met people on my tour withben and I remember meeting a

(01:10:40):
young lady in the us who she andI went and had lunch in a diner
and she was just in floods oftears because she had been doped
without her knowledge and theeffect that it had her on her
physiologically.
Right, I won't go it, but shewas distraught as a young woman

(01:11:01):
about the long-term impact onher body that the doping had
happened.
She was told these werevitamins.
You know we're just giving yousupplements and vitamins and
then to find out later on thatthese were steroids and we know
what steroid does, particularlyfor genitals.
So you just don't know.
And it's terrible that we justare increasingly becoming less

(01:11:27):
trusting in these organisationswhere once upon a time you'd
like to, you'd think that it wasa matter of well, you know, the
prime minister or the presidentor the government.
I mean, particularly if youlook at the last president of
the United States you wouldn'tbelieve anything that he said.
But you know, once upon a timeyou'd say well, the president

(01:11:47):
says this, or the prime ministersays that, or the government
says this, or why do we say that?
And you'd believe it.
These days we live in a societywhere we've got to question
everything.
So I don't know.
It's really tricky, Daniel.
Without knowing everythingabout it, I wouldn't like to
make a call.

Yeah, no fair point.

Having said, that Chinese swimming purchased our
product.
That's good.
We're now, I think, over 15countries around the world where
national coaches and NationalOlympic Federations have bought
it and are using it.
Yes, Our programs.

Which is amazing.
We'll have to put a link to EOin our show notes so people can
check it out further.
But I'm a real advocate for itand I'm certainly going to use
it again and see if I can fix upthose faults that you pointed
out so interesting.

I'd be really keen to see how you go over time
.

Yes, yes, it's not easy.

And I say this to everybody this is a very
difficult sport.
There are so many things to bethinking about as you're going
through.
You know every single componentand the advice I give to
everybody is you know if you'vegot three things you need to
change, pick one, go for thelowest hanging fruit,

(01:13:11):
concentrate on that, repeat it,do it and get it until it's
muscle memory.
Then go do the second one samestory, and then make sure you're
combining numbers one and twountil you're comfortable.
Then go do the third one.
And everybody's looking for thesilver bullet.
Everybody wants to take thepill that fixes it instantly.

(01:13:32):
Well, guess what?
There's no such thing.
That works like hard work.
So you've got to be prepared toput it in.
But if you do, this system willprovide you the information
that you need to be much better.
And I'm keen to see, danielle,how you go over time.
You know if you can take yourpropulsion from 32 up to 60 plus

(01:13:54):
and do that without losingsomething, ie without increasing
your drag, and there's noreason why you can't.
If you can do that, your timeswill get a lot better.
Yes yeah, or everything elseyou've got to do.
The same stroke rate.

Yes so.

I had a coach in the US who came to me after a
while and said, oh, it doesn'twork.
You know, I've got a guy who'sgone from 35% to 57% propulsive
but his times haven't improved.
And we sat down and did a Zoomcall and looked at the data and
I said to him hang on.
When he was, you know, 35%propulsive, his stroke rate was

(01:14:39):
37.
Now he's got his propulsion up.
His stroke rate's dropped downto 29.
I said you've got to now edgethe stroke rate back up because
you've also got to have, youknow, speed of the hands as well
.

Well, look, thanks for joining us today,
jamie.
It's been a real eye-openerspeaking to you, and I've really
enjoyed learning all about umeo and um your contribution to,
to swimming and to sport ingeneral.
Um, so good luck with thecompany and I think you'll go
from strength to strength thanks, daniel, much appreciated.

Thank you for your time.

Yeah, take care, okay, bye.
Thanks to Jamie for talkingwith us today.
As Jamie mentioned, kyleChalmers is using the handsets
in his quest for Olympic gold inParis, but I think they have a
definite place in all swimmerskit bags.
I'm certainly intrigued andmotivated to use this
information to improve my ownswimming.

(01:15:34):
As I mentioned at the start ofthe episode, the link for the
Eolab handsets and code will bein the show notes of this
episode.
Till next time, happy swimmingand bye for now.

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Torpedo Swimtalk Podcast with Jaimie Fuller - Cutting Edge Technological Innovation in Swimming with EOSwimBetter Handsets

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Torpedo Swimtalk Podcast with Jaimie Fuller - Cutting Edge Technological Innovation in Swimming with EOSwimBetter Handsets