When Olympic gold medalist and author Michelle Ford steps up to the microphone, you can almost feel the tension of the starting blocks at the 1980 Olympics. Her voice carries the weight of an era, and in her memoir "Turning the Tide," she brings us along on a journey through the highest peaks and toughest challenges of her storied career.
As we chat with Michelle for this episode of Torpedo Swimtalk Podcast she doesn't just recount races; she plunges us into the psychological depths of competing amidst a doping scandal, showcasing her own steadfast integrity and the broader fight for fairness in sports.
The murky waters of Olympic history are stirred as we discuss the IOC's Medal Reallocation Program, diving into the complexities of righting the wrongs of past games. The conversation wades through the emotional and political currents faced by athletes like Michelle, navigating through a time of suspicion and deceit. It's a poignant recollection of the struggles endured by those who swam against the tide of the East German doping regime, capturing the grit needed to confront such daunting adversaries.
Every stroke counts in the evolution of swimming, and Michelle's early splash as a record-breaking teen exemplifies this. We explore the trajectory of her career, from a young prodigy to an Olympic champion, dissecting the shifts in coaching that transformed her swimming.
Join us as we celebrate the undying spirit of Michelle and her relentless quest for recognition and justice in the world of Olympic Swimming.
You can check out Michelle's book "Turning the Tide" here
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Danielle Spurling (00:07):
Hello swimmers and welcome to another
episode of Torpedo Swim Talkpodcast.
I'm your host, DanielleSpurling, and each week we chat
to a master swimmer from aroundthe world about their swimming
journey.
Do you remember the 1980Olympics, with a political
boycott from much of the westernworld and rumours of drug
(00:29):
cheating swirling around theEast German female swimmers?
It was certainly a turbulentGames.
Australia's Michelle Ford wonthe 800 freestyle gold medal at
those Games.
She was the only non-EasternBloc female swimmer to do so.
She should have two other goldmedals as well.
She continues to advocate forthe reallocation of those medals
(00:54):
and details it in her new bookTurning the Tide.
This is her story.
Welcome to the podcast,Michelle Ford, and thank you
very much for taking the time totalk with us today.
Michelle Ford (01:10):
Thanks, Danielle, pleasure to be here.
Danielle Spurling (01:12):
Yeah, it's really great to have you.
Olympic gold medalist, worldrecord holder, sports
administrator, mother and nowauthor.
Congratulations on your memoirTurning the Tide, which I read
cover to cover over Easter andreally enjoyed it.
What inspired you to write yourswimming journey down?
Michelle Ford (01:31):
I think a couple of things.
I wanted to voice the concernsof many females who lived during
an era that was baffled bydoping and boycotts, and also to
give a voice to those women orat least, being that I had so
many opportunities in theadministration and understand
(01:54):
the administration of sport atall levels, I can see how this
works and hopefully become avoice for them, how this works
and hopefully become a voice forthem.
Danielle Spurling (02:06):
Yes, yeah, I mean we're going to dive really
deep into that, but I suppose Iwanted to ask you first how was
it reliving all those highs andlows, because you talk about
going through your archive inyour bedroom and pulling out all
the news clippings and relivingall those things.
How was that?
Michelle Ford (02:24):
That was dangerous, I can imagine.
Not dangerous.
It was an emotionalrollercoaster, really reliving
some of the.
I mean you see the highs andthe lows and you relive that
journey with a different eye,through different eyes.
But then you try and compare itto today and you realise that
(02:49):
there's still a lot of thoseissues still alive today.
And hence you know, when peoplesaid to me, is your story
relevant?
Absolutely, absolutely relevant.
And you know we've come a longway but there's still a lot of
hurdles to to to jump over yeah,absolutely.
Danielle Spurling (03:09):
I think it's totally relevant.
I mean, it's still doping goingon.
Michelle Ford (03:13):
It's being masked well by scientists who are
advanced on what we can test, soit's still there yeah, I, I
think what my, my feeling is uh,we have to treat the part, we
have to treat the past, we haveto answer the past, answer to
the past in order to protect thefuture.
And that past and the mostdramatic and horrific
(03:37):
state-sponsored doping programand I know we'll go back there,
but that's what changed sportforever and it introduced an
avenue of high-level scientificknowledge into sport which is,
in part, good but also, on theother side, very harmful to
(04:01):
junior athletes, very harmful tojunior athletes.
And I think there is a hiccupin the system whereby they
haven't addressed the past, thatbeing, our level of
administrators in sport, beingFINA, ioc, have not addressed
(04:22):
that.
Danielle Spurling (04:23):
Well, seeing we've opened with talking with
that, let's continue talkingwith it, because you were
obviously.
You won the Olympic gold medalin 1980 and you were the only
non-Soviet bloc athlete at thetime who won a gold medal
against what we now know wassystematic cheating across the
East German team.
How did it feel to actuallycompete at that time?
(04:46):
But you still had to go inthere with the mental attitude
of being able to swim that race.
Michelle Ford (04:53):
Look, it was very difficult because I've sort of
analysed it and re-analysed itand I come to the conclusion.
There's two points here.
One is that the steroids andthe amount that the East Germans
were actually inducing intotheir athletes was phenomenal.
(05:16):
I mean three times the amountof Ben Johnson, for example, if
we recall Ben Johnson, but notonly that.
They had a psychologicaladvantage, knowing that they
were stronger, faster, moreagile, more.
Their recuperation was amazing.
For example, if I took threedays to recuperate, they'd take
(05:38):
20 minutes.
And that's just in sport.
That's a huge advantage, justto be able to recuperate and
come back and get your systemback on track to compete.
So yeah, so we had all that.
And it was just the size of themas well, I mean their bulk and
(05:59):
the looks of them.
I mean they were, you know,highly, highly dosed up and some
of them have actually becomemen in effect during the process
, which is, of course, is aproblem in the whole scope of
things.
But as a competitor next tothem, you know it's tough, and I
(06:24):
think we were blown away inmontreal in 76 when they first
came to the scene in such adynamic way.
They won um 11 out of the 13 ummedals in swimming, uh, which
they also did in moscow, and tocome up against it, it was just
phenomenal really, and you hadto just look past it and put.
(06:47):
I've always said you have toput the blinkers on and not look
at your competitor, and it wasalways just a challenge for me
to, to, to swim my race, um, andnot consider who my opponent
was.
So it, so it's a mind overmatter.
It really is.
I mean, of course, becausetheir matter was so much bigger
(07:10):
and better than mine, but Iobviously had the mental
strength to pass through that.
Danielle Spurling (07:17):
Yeah, I can tell by reading the book and the
way you sort of, you know,described your approach because
you had your 200 butterfly firstand then your 400, and you
talked about the way the EastGermans worked as a team and the
tactics that they used to sortof take you out fast and throw
you off your race plan.
And I thought that was soinsightful from you as a 17 year
(07:40):
old to take those two sort oflessons and then take it into
your 800 and know what you weregoing to do.
Michelle Ford (07:45):
Oh, I just felt, I felt abused in the first two
races, in that I I saw myselfget swallowed into their game
and that's not usually how Iswim a race.
Once you do that, you give in,you give in to someone else's
race plan and it's very um, it's, it's hard to, it's hard to to
(08:09):
keep uh yourself focused, uh,because you see the swimmers on
either side of you going out andyou think that that's the speed
that is, and you're feelinggood and you go out with them.
And they were covered on bothsides.
And in those days we had threeum competitors from each um um
(08:30):
country.
Now it's only two, but withthree, what they did was they
sent the two out with like infront.
So I would go with them and inbutterfly, you look forward.
And the, the other, uh, eastgerman, on the outside lane of
where I was, uh, she'd come home, so they held her back to come
(08:52):
home and I I just got suckedinto their, their game plan.
And I think you know there was alot of other stuff, as you
probably read in the book thatthat happened in mosc, moscow.
That was totally disturbing.
You know you warm up beingdisturbed by not getting to the
pool in time and they'd alreadychanged, they'd already done the
(09:13):
warm-up and so you didn't havetime.
You had more doping controlsthan they ever did and that took
time.
So time out of your ownpreparation and your
concentration.
And you know, the food was welllet's put it this way not to be
desired, at least for where wecame from, and it was a totally
(09:38):
different regime diet and itjust didn't go with our swimming
program.
Danielle Spurling (09:46):
All the things you talked about in the
book and all of those hurdles.
It's absolutely amazing thatyou, you won that gold medal and
you were so resilient and andthe race was just brilliant to
watch.
You must look back on that nowand just you know that must send
shivers down your spine.
Michelle Ford (10:02):
Well, it does actually because that 800 metres
freestyle it was one of thelast events of the Games and I
of course got my bronze medal inthe 200 fly and fourth placing
in the 400 free.
So I went up to the 800 andwith my coach we said I'd take
(10:24):
it out easier, not go out withthem, hold back and of course
not hold back as much as I do,because I was a body and
something length behind when youwatch the race and I'm even
amazed that.
I said, wow, was I that farbehind?
And we decided we'd go at the200 instead of, you know, a 250
(10:45):
or 300 in an 800.
It's strategic as well.
But when I took off the wall, Ithink I surprised them because
I had changed my race tactics.
We didn't have all the videosback then to look at people's
races so that they had thesplits of my races so they could
work out from that.
(11:06):
But we didn't even know who was.
You know, the east germans.
I knew them by the girls in theblue suits.
I didn't even know their names.
It didn't really matter to mebecause they were just the girls
in the blue suits, uh, and theywere the ones to beat and and.
So when I went through thelineup.
(11:28):
What was crazy was my head wentinto.
Well, I've got to save myselfnow for the rest of the 800,
because I've gone out a bitearlier.
I've got to save myself becausethey're going to come back at
me because they've got more intheir tank than I ever will have
and that played on my mind forover 400 metres.
That's a long time and I'm justpacing myself thinking they're
(11:53):
coming back at me at this lengthbecause I didn't know their
race plan.
And, yeah, I got to and I saidwhen should I put the throttle
down?
When do I go on this?
And that's you come back to thewhen.
When do I go on this?
Uh, and, and that's you.
You come back to the pointwhere do you go for the time?
Or do you go for the win?
And in the Olympic Games, I'msorry, you go for the win?
(12:14):
Yeah, the time.
The time doesn't.
I mean the time is reflective,of course, and I would.
When I finished, I said I stillgot more in in my tank to keep
going because I'd saved it all,uh, but I was, I was well in
front, uh, at the end, and uh, I, I, I think they were very
(12:34):
disappointed and and and theythought they had it, and I think
the shock for the East Germangirls when they put their head
down on the block, when theytouched the wall, showed
everything that they weresupposed to take that out and I
had just completely annihilatedthem.
So it was a good film.
Danielle Spurling (12:55):
I bet it was.
It was great to watch and Ithink also that one of the
pictures you had in the book.
You were sort of in the middleof the two of them and they did
look a bit shell-shocked yeah, Idon't think it dawned the they
were told as a team.
Michelle Ford (13:14):
They were, as you said earlier.
They were um a team, theyworked as a team.
The coaches didn't care who won, they just had to win.
So, whatever that cost,whatever the cost was, they had
to win and they put anything,they'd sacrifice anything or
anyone to do that.
And hence you know, the dopingprogram was so, so, so, um, so
(13:38):
heavily uh in in, induced intothe poor girls, uh, but yeah,
they, they were verydisappointed because I think
they, they were, they felt shameas well.
I haven't spoken to them, butjust their faces, just their,
their attitude after um, they'dlet down their, their, their
(13:59):
team model, um, but yeah, Ididn't care about that yeah, of
course not at the time I washappy and you should be still
happy.
Danielle Spurling (14:12):
Have you ever had a chance to speak to any of
the East German swimmers fromthat time?
Not those two particularly, butany of the others?
Um look.
Michelle Ford (14:18):
I was to reach out to them all.
Sadly, we've got to get thecontext of this era, and it was
during the Cold War, and theEastern Bloc, as we called it,
was so closed, we called itbehind the Iron Curtain.
That being, no one could getinto any of those countries
(14:43):
without an invitation, and theinvitation was few and far
between, and you could only seewhat they wanted you to see.
Um, so our knowledge and ourrelationship with anyone on that
side of the curtain was aboutin non-existent.
So, and as time goes on, youknow, I I've put all this back
(15:05):
into the my my boxes and movedon.
Uh, but it was time.
It is time to tell this story,and I think it's not only my
story, it's many, as I said inthe beginning, many um of those
who participated, not only thefemales, but also the males and
and people from the Westernworld and the Eastern world.
(15:27):
We all bear some the anguish ofthat era, and I think it's now
time that that was resolved andthat we talk to it.
Danielle Spurling (15:38):
Yes, Do you have any hope that those medals
will be re-awarded to therightful owners?
Do you have any hope that thosemedals will be re-awarded to
the rightful owners?
Michelle Ford (15:45):
The IOC now has a program called the Medal
Reallocation Program, which isalready in place, and they've
done it for, you know, 2000,2008, 2012, 2016.
So it's not like it's a newthing for them.
2016.
(16:10):
So we're it's not like it's anew thing for them.
Uh, and it's.
It has to be said that the eastgerman girls and their doping
program was so meticulously runthat every part of their program
was written down.
So there's proof and that proofhas been taken to a court of
law in Germany from the girlsagainst their coaches and
(16:30):
administrators and they'veproven that they were doped and
they were doped heavily and tothe extent that was in the
papers or the files that cameout of the Stasi files, german
police at the time.
And with that proof, I thinkthe IOC and FINA and, of course,
(16:54):
athletics have to take thatinto consideration and say there
is proof here.
It's been called out in a courtof law.
We've got to remember that theeast germans were never tested
positive.
They had a very, as you saidearlier, their the scientific
knowledge.
The people who were testing itwere the same people who were
(17:15):
making the drugs.
So you will always put one alittle bit behind the other and
you know you can switch out justmolecules of an ingredient and
the test doesn't pull it upuntil later.
And that's where the ioc istoday.
With their blood testing theycan actually look in and see if
(17:38):
that was the those bannedsubstances were actually used.
So they can go back in timewhich they had done to call out
the cheats yeah, so do they haveany samples stored from 1980?
1976, 1976 and 1980, um, I thinkup until maybe 92 or 98, I'd
(18:05):
have to reconfirm that but itwas based on urine samples and
until they got the blood testinghappening.
Now it's obviously more precise.
But with urine you have to bevery specific and you can't keep
a urine sample and that's.
I can hear there the voices ofcaution saying that you know
(18:29):
well, we haven't got the proofon the day, et cetera.
But the proof is on the day.
They were actually giventestosterone and anabolic
steroids and otherperformance-enhancing drugs
leading up to the blocks on thatday.
Okay, in Moscow there was nopositive test.
(18:50):
You have to ask yourself howdid that happen?
Danielle Spurling (18:55):
So the IOC have this committee now and do
World Aquatics have any say insort of moving that along so
that people can get some kind ofresolution, or is it just sort
of sitting there talking aboutit?
Michelle Ford (19:09):
Well, it's a bit of a tit-for-tat program, but
the FINA, the World Body, nowWorld Aquatics has its
jurisdiction for the swimmingworld and the swimming
championships, except at theOlympic Games, although they're
party to the Olympic Games andthey subscribe to the Olympic
(19:32):
Games, that the program ofdoping is actually under the
auspices of the InternationalOlympic Committee and not the
Federation, whereby all worldchampionships which is the same
question why hasn't FINA actedin a way?
So, to answer your question, yes, it has to be the two well, one
(19:56):
body or the other, and or both,that can subscribe to looking
at the record books andrealigning them with what their
constitution and what the fairplay and the ideals of sport and
(20:19):
a fair playing field, anddoping is the most dangerous and
the most shameful abuse ofthose ideals.
And therefore I do believe thatthey have to do something to
answer this, because not onlythe West that being America,
england, australia they lost outon their medal placings the
(20:47):
East Germans as well want to seethis, the reconciliation of
this and the recognition, andset the record book straight.
Danielle Spurling (20:57):
So I think it is time that this is spoken to
and in 1980, not only did youhave to deal with what was
happening with the East Germans,we had a boycott in Australia
and the Fraser governmentdecided not to endorse sending a
team.
How did that play into yourmindset?
(21:17):
Because in reading through that, I mean I didn't realise that
there was a number.
They made a decision, the AOCmade a decision to go, but then
they decided again and they hadanother vote and it was all up
in the air.
How does that play on your mindwhen you're training?
Michelle Ford (21:33):
It was horrific and you know the athletes that
went to Moscow lived through themost disastrous time in sport I
think ever, and especially inAustralia, although you know
people said, oh well, you went,but we went through so much
(21:53):
hardship.
The team you know, we weregiven this we're going, we're
not, we're going, we're not,we're going, we're not.
Would you get into the pool anddo the amount of training
that's needed to get that?
The precision and the physiqueand the mental?
(22:14):
It just played on our minds somuch that our competition ended
up being, you know, whetherwe're going or not, just getting
on the blocks, just gettingonto the plane was a real
struggle for us and it went on.
For when Carter called thePresident, carter, the US
(22:35):
President, called the threat ofa boycott in January.
That was only six months outfrom the games.
Now if you look at the kidstoday, they're in total heavy
training.
Their, their minds are set fora goal.
Now, if you disturb that bysaying, look, mate, we're not
sure if you're going, you knowwell, maybe you are, maybe
(22:58):
you're not, maybe who knows?
Uh, and we had already beenselected.
So we knew we were on the teamand whether or not we were going
.
So and then, you know, my familyand and, and myself and and and
others received death threatsbecause Australia was torn apart
over this.
The government was asking forus not to go.
(23:19):
The Olympic Committee, who hasthe right of decision whether or
not a country participates?
The invitation is sent to thenational Olympic body, not the
government.
Invitation is sent to thenational olympic body, not the
government.
Uh, for that reason, um, thethe national body was able to um
override that and say yes, weare, we are sending a team and I
(23:43):
I believe, uh, quite honestly,that um, the by us going to the
games, uh, the olympic movementhas survived.
If we didn't go to the games,the Olympic movement has
survived.
If we didn't go to the Games,if some of the Western countries
didn't go to those Games, therewould be no more Olympics.
So, in effect, I think we, youknow, held the torch alight for
(24:06):
future generations.
Danielle Spurling (24:08):
Yeah, absolutely.
I just can't even imagine thepressure that you are under then
oh, it was horrific, it wasterrible.
Michelle Ford (24:17):
I I well you sort of say why am I?
Why am I training?
Why am I in the pool?
Why am I doing all these hardyards?
Um, for for what?
Um, so your mind's going allover the place.
In one day you go oh look, giveit a go, it a go.
They haven't yet called it.
And then you're sitting on theedge of your seat waiting for
another decision.
And then the government madethem to make another decision,
(24:39):
and then even another decision,and so we were battled with
three decision-making processes,and that was only.
We're only talking four weeksout from the games.
This happened four weeks that's.
Danielle Spurling (24:55):
That's just crazy, isn't it?
I just it's just hard toimagine because all obviously I
was quite young then, so I Ididn't sort of know all that
sort of stuff behind it.
I just watched it on tv and sawyou win and saw Mishka the
little bear and the openingceremony and thought, oh wow,
this is what I want to do.
But you don't realise until youhear someone's story written
(25:17):
down like that what was going onbehind the scenes.
That's why it's such animportant story to tell.
Michelle Ford (25:22):
Yeah, thanks, danielle, and I think too, the
story is one of the first of anathlete who lived through that
journey and also because laterafter my career I was part of
(25:44):
well, I've been privy to theadministration of sport and how
that all works, and I was ableto add the contextual part of it
into the story and hopefullyexpressed it in more simple
terms, because it is a complexworld of sport is complex and
(26:04):
people sort of say, you know,it's, it's the coach, it's the,
it's the, the head of the, thesport, and it's the referees.
You know.
But it's a lot more complexthan all that.
There's a lot of parameters init and I think to be able to put
that in the story and talk alsoof the East German girls in the
(26:28):
story because I wanted to havethat parallel in the book so
that there is.
You know, how we were treatedback in Australia was horrific.
We had to put up with I callthem the men in blue suits other
than the girls in blue suits,but the administrators didn't
(26:50):
want us.
It seemed like they didn't wantus to win, they didn't want us
to do well and we were hamperedevery step of the way.
Every step of the way.
We had problems, and that's notonly me, but I think most of
the athletes in Australia atleast.
We were fought with thisquestion of how do we get
(27:14):
through our own system?
Yes, and yet the East Germanswere, you know, looked after.
They were given their cars,they were given their houses,
they were pampered, they weregiven massages, they were given
all this as a parallel.
Danielle Spurling (27:30):
We were treated like you know um,
political pawns in a, in a in afry pan, just to use us for
their own egos yeah, I mean,it's amazing and and amongst
that I feel your description ofyou know, the female athletes,
even being female swimmers,being even sort of more harshly
(27:51):
dealt with than the maleswimmers.
The male swimmers having abetter hotel, motel and bit, you
know, better conditions andbeing able to go out and all
those kind of things, and thefemale swimmers, no, and and
weigh-ins, which still happeningtoday, still happen today, you
know, happening you know, andthey're still talking about
those things today.
Why haven't they improved?
Michelle Ford (28:12):
yeah it, it's something that the sports needs
to at least give the opportunity.
We always used to look to theUS as the starring group because
we felt that they were muchbetter looked after than we were
(28:34):
.
And you know, I think it causesa lot of friction, not only up
to the administration level, butalso in the team itself,
because they have and thehave-nots and the and it was.
It was just so, um so sad tosee, you know, the, the females,
(28:57):
just being treated um sodifferently than the males, and
probably the males didn't evensee that difference because they
were living a different worldthan us.
You know that they were allowedthe food on the plane and we
weren't.
We were locked in our rooms forsix hours and they were allowed
out to the steeplechase just asan adventure.
(29:21):
It was just all wrong.
It was so wrong.
Danielle Spurling (29:27):
Absolutely, absolutely.
I mean, look, we've come a longway.
I mean these Olympic Games aregoing to be 50-50 representation
of female and male, but it'staken a long time to get there.
Michelle Ford (29:38):
Yes, and after 1980, President Samaranch, the
IOC president, because the IOCwas on its knees because they
had no, they were, they werestruggling to to stay relevant.
(29:59):
There was the goodwill games,there was other things happening
around, and that the world ofsport had come apart at that
moment, and I was fortunate tobe invited as one of the 25
athletes around the world toaddress the IOC, and we've got
to remember before that theathlete was treated, we weren't
(30:23):
allowed a voice, there was noacts.
If you opened your mouth, youwere condemned and you were
punished, whereas now we'veopened that door and the I think
the our, what we did, uh atthat congress, uh, and and um, I
say that the sebastian co andthomas bark and and I were in
(30:46):
this room writing out thespeeches to actually address the
congress and say we want genderequality.
This is no good.
To have a 22 percent of femaleparticipation, uh, there's no
reason for it.
Um, also, there was no femalesin the administration of sport.
(31:06):
No ioc member was a female.
So that this is only what 40years ago.
I know it sounds a long time,but and we've come a long way,
but finally we're 50, 50 inParis, as you say uh of
participation, um numbersnumbers numbers yes, it's not
exactly 50.
Danielle Spurling (31:26):
50, yeah, yeah exactly and administration
wise, because I know you'veyou've worked at um Commission
in Australia and SwimmingAustralia in the IOC.
Now is that becoming a littlebit more balanced or is it still
heavily weighted in the malefavour?
Michelle Ford (31:45):
Look, there's still a long way to go, right, I
think in all the sport I thinkthere's, you know, and I sat on
the boards and I see theattitude and sure, I mean, when
you bring athletes on board,we're strong characters.
We have to be in order tosucceed.
But there is a lot ofintelligence in that quorum of
(32:13):
athletes and we need to embracethat.
And I think there's still aceiling that has to be broken by
moving the age even on, andthey keep putting the age limits
on.
But, for example, in Fa, we hada president who was 80,
(32:35):
whatever years of age.
How is that?
How is that relevant to today?
Who sees the athlete of today?
Uh, there's too much of a gapand I think there are some good
people in sport and we have tolet them through the door yes,
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree.
Danielle Spurling (32:53):
I mean I think I hope all the young
female swimmers out there readyour book because you know I
love the fact that you stillpursued your academic side of
things as well as your swimming,which must have been pretty
tough at the time.
But you obviously went andstudied in the US.
How did that impact yourswimming long term, do you think
(33:14):
?
Michelle Ford (33:16):
Oh, that was my saviour really Going to the US.
It was the first time that theNC2As opened.
Well, it was under a differenttitle back then, but they opened
the door to female title backthen, but they opened the door
to female scholarships tocomplete your education with
(33:37):
your athletic career.
And it was such a I would havegiven up swimming Because I came
back from Moscow, I was offeredthe first scholarship to the
AIS, the Institute of Sport, andwhen they turned around and
(33:57):
said, but you'll only beswimming and you won't be doing
education, I said sorry, I'vegot to reject the offer because
I knew I needed my education andif I had another one year, two,
of just swimming, I wasn't able.
You know, when you finishswimming, you don't.
You don't have anything youneed.
You need an education tofulfill your, your, your life
(34:22):
after sport, uh, whatever thatlooks like, um, but you do need
to to maintain that education.
And the US was was my saviourin doing that and being able to
swim, of course, onto 84.
Danielle Spurling (34:37):
Take us back to the very start of your career
, which I mean you had someremarkable achievements at a
really young age, like breakinga lot of Shane Gould's early
records.
How did that sort of shape,what you were going to
eventually sort of come into,leading into 1980, those sort of
early experiences in Sydney?
Michelle Ford (34:58):
I think that the early experiences is that, um,
you know, making the team waswas just the biggest and best
thing that um and I was 13 atthe time, so it did come early
in my career, so I didn't haveto wait too long.
Today that's not possiblebecause they and even back then
(35:21):
it was questionable whether youshould take such a young athlete
across, but I had.
My eyes were on winning gold atMontreal, so the age didn't
worry me, wasn't a concern to me, but it was to everyone else.
I think there was the onslaught, of course, of what we said.
The East Germans sort of hithome hard.
(35:43):
And when I came back and thetreatment of us for the
preparation for those games,after making the team all
excited, you think, wow, we'regoing to be looked after, and
I'd heard stories and it was adream.
But then I started that journeyand it was just a tragedy.
(36:05):
We were billeted out.
We were at the other side ofthe country, four hours away.
The other side of the country,four hours away, three hours in
time, changes and nocommunication with our families,
no communication with ourcoaches.
We didn't even have our owncoaches.
We had no one who knew us or wedidn't know anyone.
(36:28):
We had to make the new friendson the team and we had to train
with coaches who we never, nevereven knew about.
So and I think that was reallytough for 13 year olds and 14
year olds, um, and then we gotto Moscow and hit the East
Germans, so that was.
That was another rolling ball uh, right, right in front of
(36:50):
double whammies, you know, andit, but I do think it makes you
strong.
I mean it obviously, um, butwhen I came back from montreal I
wanted to to quit swimming, um,and I was had to be, you know,
coerced back into the pool and Ithink a lot of athletes you
know you have a bad experienceand it kills your dreams and
(37:14):
that's what administrators needto understand.
You can't kill those dreams.
The dreams are the importantpart of an athletic career.
Danielle Spurling (37:22):
Yeah, that's a great point.
I love that when you were 13 inMontreal and at 15 you broke
800 metre world record, whichyou didn't swim the 800 in
Montreal.
What made you transition tothat longer distance?
Michelle Ford (37:39):
The longer distance was the coercion back
into the pool to swim, an eventthat wasn't one of my pet events
.
My pet events were the 200freestyle.
Well, the events that I madethe 76 games was a 200 freestyle
and 200 butterfly and the 400freestyle in fact.
But when I came back, the mediais very, very persuasive here
(38:08):
and, and you know, if you did abad time, I I felt that it would
have been a quick, you know,crucifying me for the rest of my
career.
So I didn't want to go out likethat.
My coach said let's go into arace that you've never swum
before and see how you feel.
And sadly for me, because Idon't like the 800, I didn't
(38:29):
like the distances, but I stillswam so well that I was very
close to the world record timejust by swimming my first 800.
And then that became a target.
Yeah, silly things happen, butyou know, sometimes you don't
get to choose what you're goodat yes, yes, exactly right.
Danielle Spurling (38:52):
And when you broke that world record, um,
when you were 15.
What do you remember about that?
That race, that day?
Michelle Ford (38:59):
It was such a funny story because I'd gone up
to this was a new program inAustralia.
Australia was critical that wehadn't any international
competition.
We'd only compete twice a yearand once nationally.
So and we had no internationalcompetition except for the
(39:20):
Olympic Games and theCommonwealth Games, and that was
it.
There was no.
The World Championships hadjust started at that time, so
there was just before, but notlike we see today.
So we were critical.
The sport had to do something.
So there was a sponsor who cameto the fore and said let's do a
(39:42):
different set-up a finals, justfinals, finals.
And I said that's me, I canjust swim once and that will do
me.
So, yeah, I went up and swam, Iwas swimming along and you know
, I was out in front and I allof a sudden clicked over into a
(40:04):
song, but only two lines of thesong and it just went over and
over and over in my head.
So I totally lost count of the16 laps that I had to swim, and
waiting for that whistle to blowwas the longest, because I
thought have I overstepped mymark, have I gone too far?
But when the whistle blows youhave two laps left, and when I
(40:28):
heard that whistle, I go.
Yes, I've got two laps left Off, I go and I broke the world
record and it was out of theblue in a way for me and I beat
the East Germans time.
So I obviously had it in me andI wouldn't say it's a relaxing
(40:50):
swim.
No, swim is relaxing, but tosing a song, you're in a zone
and that zone gives you thatenergy.
I guess and I've heard a lot ofswimmers since say I'm in that
zone and that zone is theultimate moment that yeah, it
(41:12):
obviously works.
Danielle Spurling (41:15):
What was your breathing pattern?
Did you have one or did youjust breathe when you needed to?
No, every three.
Michelle Ford (41:21):
Every three.
I was always no every three,every three.
I was always coached everythree.
I was very regular on mybreathing and you know, in
swimming you can have differentbody types but you can all
achieve the same time.
I mean, I know that now is abit more, they seem like they're
(41:44):
more one body type, but backthen we were all different body
types.
But you achieve the same goaland each one has a different
stroke, so no one stroke works.
We didn't have thebiomechanical data nor the
(42:05):
physiology of how to you knowand the nutrition, and there was
no scientific research.
And I must say, going back tothe East Germans, I believe that
they actually introduced thatinto the sport because they
weren't only doping, they werealso using different methods of
coaching and using the lactates,using the um, breathing per lap
(42:31):
, using the um, the recuperationand, uh, dynamics, uh, with the
heavy workload and how muchrest you need and giving the
athlete the rest.
We never got that rest.
We were just flogged andflogged and flogged and flogged
and that's why I always workbetter with my first coach and
(42:54):
to do 90%.
And that's what they're doingtoday.
They're doing the 80%, 90% hitouts rather than the up and
downs, so it's become moreexciting.
I wish I was a swimmer today.
I know, I know are you?
in the water at all these days.
Yeah, yeah, I still, I stillswim, uh I.
(43:17):
I use it as my what I call myzen moment.
Um, all my mind thinks and putsthings in order.
So I think it's a beautifulsport and um, it's good on the
body and it uh I I think it's,um we just yeah, it being in the
the water is is for me, uh,just my element how many um sort
(43:40):
of opportunities in pools doyou get in spitzeland?
yeah, look, I, I started up anadult, um, swim, swim school, uh
, and so I, I, I teach, I teachthe adults, um, and I, I, you
know, swim myself and they'rethey're myself, and there are
(44:03):
pools around.
There's less access than thereis in Australia for pools, but I
come back to Australia veryoften too, and, yes, I love the
ocean.
Yes, yes, and we are lucky hereto have the ocean at our front
door.
Danielle Spurling (44:20):
Yes, oh lovely.
What do you think setsAustralian swimmers apart from
the rest of the world?
Because I think the culturethat they have around the team
now is looking, I think, a lotbetter than it was a few years
ago.
What do you think about thatculture and what we do here in
Australia?
Michelle Ford (44:41):
Look, I agree with you and I think that it's
where I borrow the idea of theteam.
They've become a team.
We were individuals, althoughwe were a team and had great
friendship.
We were just a group ofindividuals thrown together and
they never brought us in as ateam, and I think that is one of
(45:06):
the most important factors forperformance is to have a group
behind you and all going for thesame thing.
So the jealousies are taken out,and sure, we're not talking
about competition, we're talkingabout jealousy and there's a
difference between the two, andI think we suffered a lot of
(45:29):
jealousies from theadministration down and jealousy
was probably part of theculture, not between athletes,
it was more.
But you felt that coming downToday I hear that now they've
got their own coaches on deck.
The coaches, if they've got theswimmer on the team, they have
(45:54):
access to their athlete and thatmakes a huge difference and the
coaches themselves are morealigned with each other than
back in the day when they werealso individuals.
So I think there's a mending ofthat and you know more of a
(46:16):
group help and they obviouslyhave all the external assistance
as well that we didn't have,and they have psychologists, and
I think that is like I didsports psych, my master's in
sports psych, and I see you knowit's like in business that it's
(46:38):
about performance, it's aboutreaching further.
How do you get those goals andwhere do we go with those?
And I think that's what's borninto it and trained and pampered
in a way to increase theperformance options that they
(46:59):
have.
And you know, you can see it ondeck how um they stand with
more uh, they stand proudthey're, they're positive,
they're you know you, when youtalk to them, they're more um,
happier people.
I think I say that in a generalterm, but happier people on the
(47:19):
deck.
And where we were stragglylittle kids, you know we were,
even though we had a role, butwe were just teenagers.
And now they're, of course, 28,29, 30s and I can see why they
stay in From Baden-Baden in theCongress of the IOC.
(47:42):
And sorry to take this back tothat, but that's when we asked
for the opening of the amateurrule.
Before we couldn't earn money.
Today they can, and by us, theathletes, having that voice and
opening that up and forcing theadministration to open up the
(48:08):
opportunity for athletes to earnmoney.
We see that today and I thinkthat was a huge win for athletes
to actually be able to earnmoney.
Danielle Spurling (48:21):
I mean, it's a huge legacy that you've left
the sport by being able to dothat from your own successes and
then having that academic andeducation side behind you.
I'm sure that was one of thereasons that you were chosen to
go to Baden-Baden because you'rearticulate and able to express
those thoughts.
So the swimmers that are on ourteam or about to be on our team
(48:44):
today, I hope that they readthis book as well, so that they
know what you did, yeah.
Michelle Ford (48:50):
I think it's an important part of who they are
today and it's so, so important.
I did, actually, in writingthis book.
I wrote a book for the IOC onthe athlete's voice and traced
with a German professor andtraced the program from
(49:14):
Baden-Baden and on to today, soon to 2000.
But it's an important part ofthe history of why they they're
able now to live in theirfive-star hotels or whatever.
You know, there's more money insport because of it.
Sport, I mean sure it'schanging and and we know that
(49:35):
it's changing again today, butat least it's set a new standard
and one that you know now theathlete can stay until they're
33.
But back then you had to go andget a job.
You had no choice.
Danielle Spurling (49:52):
I wanted to finish off today by asking you
about some of the coaches thatyou've worked with, like Bill
Sweetenum, don Talbot, dick Kane, who was the toughest and who
did you enjoy working with themost?
Michelle Ford (50:06):
Oh, they were all tough.
They were all very, very tough.
There's tough and tough.
What we did with Don Talbot wasjust crazily tough.
I mean it just blew my mindthat he would invent anything
(50:27):
and it's to do.
And I think the coaches thatworked the best for me were
those who understood that thechallenge you've got to put a
challenge in front of theathlete, you have to keep
challenging them.
You have to say and give them agoal, even though it's like in
(50:49):
a training set, I think there'sa goal that has to when you want
performance, when you want themto stretch out and get that
little bit extra that we searchfor for the threshold and
everything else.
I think there's that.
And if a coach can read you,you well, I've always said a
good coach is an artist as well.
They're a bit crazy.
A lot of them are very crazy.
(51:10):
No, don't take that wrong, youcoaches, but I'm probably crazy
too.
So, um, I think it's more so aswell reading your athlete.
And if you can read the athleteand I always said a good coach
has to know is a good trainer ofanimals, like my first coach
(51:33):
was a good trainer of horses andhe went out and he coached the
horses and then come back to thepool and coach us.
But a horse doesn't talk, ofcourse, and you have to learn to
read the signs and I thinkthat's the sign of a good coach.
And toughness.
Sadly, it is tough.
(51:56):
Swimming is tough, but it'salso a team sport.
And people think not, but it'sa team sport and people think
not, but it is a team sport.
And the camaraderie in thereand the joy you have in in just
having your teammates, uh, Ithink overrides any of you know
you're living the same thing, soyou all go through the same
program.
(52:16):
Uh, so you know, and it'sachieving your results, whatever
they are.
They don't have to be the goldmedal, but they could be, you
know, just a time, or justfeeling good in the water.
So, as long as you allcontinually set your goals, I
think that that's and the coachhas to be part of that.
(52:39):
They have to feed that to you.
Danielle Spurling (52:44):
Michelle, it's been such a pleasure
talking to you today.
I could talk to you all daybecause I love hearing about all
these stories, but I reallyprobably do need to let you go.
So thank you, thank you very,very much and wishing you every
success with the book, and we'llput a link to the book, um, and
where people can buy it in ourshow notes so that they can
check it out brilliant.
Michelle Ford (53:05):
Thank you very much and thanks again and um to
all your listeners.
Um, you know you're, you're agreat interviewer.
Danielle Spurling (53:12):
You've gone over every single point oh good,
I'm glad we covered it allthank you very much for having
me on the show.
Okay, thanks, michelle Bye.
Michelle Ford (53:27):
Okay, cheers.
Danielle Spurling (53:29):
Thanks to Michelle for her honesty and
generosity in sharing her storywith us today on the podcast.
I've put a link to her new bookTurning the Tide in today's
show notes.
It's a really great read andwell worth checking out.
Till next time, happy swimmingand bye for now.
Hello swimmers and welcome to another
episode of Torpedo Swim Talkpodcast.
I'm your host, DanielleSpurling, and each week we chat
to a master swimmer from aroundthe world about their swimming
journey.
Do you remember the 1980Olympics, with a political
boycott from much of the westernworld and rumours of drug
(00:29):
cheating swirling around theEast German female swimmers?
It was certainly a turbulentGames.
Australia's Michelle Ford wonthe 800 freestyle gold medal at
those Games.
She was the only non-EasternBloc female swimmer to do so.
She should have two other goldmedals as well.
She continues to advocate forthe reallocation of those medals
(00:54):
and details it in her new bookTurning the Tide.
This is her story.
Welcome to the podcast,Michelle Ford, and thank you
very much for taking the time totalk with us today.
Michelle Ford (01:10):
Thanks, Danielle, pleasure to be here.
Danielle Spurling (01:12):
Yeah, it's really great to have you.
Olympic gold medalist, worldrecord holder, sports
administrator, mother and nowauthor.
Congratulations on your memoirTurning the Tide, which I read
cover to cover over Easter andreally enjoyed it.
What inspired you to write yourswimming journey down?
Michelle Ford (01:31):
I think a couple of things.
I wanted to voice the concernsof many females who lived during
an era that was baffled bydoping and boycotts, and also to
give a voice to those women orat least, being that I had so
many opportunities in theadministration and understand
(01:54):
the administration of sport atall levels, I can see how this
works and hopefully become avoice for them, how this works
and hopefully become a voice forthem.
Danielle Spurling (02:06):
Yes, yeah, I mean we're going to dive really
deep into that, but I suppose Iwanted to ask you first how was
it reliving all those highs andlows, because you talk about
going through your archive inyour bedroom and pulling out all
the news clippings and relivingall those things.
How was that?
Michelle Ford (02:24):
That was dangerous, I can imagine.
Not dangerous.
It was an emotionalrollercoaster, really reliving
some of the.
I mean you see the highs andthe lows and you relive that
journey with a different eye,through different eyes.
But then you try and compare itto today and you realise that
(02:49):
there's still a lot of thoseissues still alive today.
And hence you know, when peoplesaid to me, is your story
relevant?
Absolutely, absolutely relevant.
And you know we've come a longway but there's still a lot of
hurdles to to to jump over yeah,absolutely.
Danielle Spurling (03:09):
I think it's totally relevant.
I mean, it's still doping goingon.
Michelle Ford (03:13):
It's being masked well by scientists who are
advanced on what we can test, soit's still there yeah, I, I
think what my, my feeling is uh,we have to treat the part, we
have to treat the past, we haveto answer the past, answer to
the past in order to protect thefuture.
And that past and the mostdramatic and horrific
(03:37):
state-sponsored doping programand I know we'll go back there,
but that's what changed sportforever and it introduced an
avenue of high-level scientificknowledge into sport which is,
in part, good but also, on theother side, very harmful to
(04:01):
junior athletes, very harmful tojunior athletes.
And I think there is a hiccupin the system whereby they
haven't addressed the past, thatbeing, our level of
administrators in sport, beingFINA, ioc, have not addressed
(04:22):
that.
Danielle Spurling (04:23):
Well, seeing we've opened with talking with
that, let's continue talkingwith it, because you were
obviously.
You won the Olympic gold medalin 1980 and you were the only
non-Soviet bloc athlete at thetime who won a gold medal
against what we now know wassystematic cheating across the
East German team.
How did it feel to actuallycompete at that time?
(04:46):
But you still had to go inthere with the mental attitude
of being able to swim that race.
Michelle Ford (04:53):
Look, it was very difficult because I've sort of
analysed it and re-analysed itand I come to the conclusion.
There's two points here.
One is that the steroids andthe amount that the East Germans
were actually inducing intotheir athletes was phenomenal.
(05:16):
I mean three times the amountof Ben Johnson, for example, if
we recall Ben Johnson, but notonly that.
They had a psychologicaladvantage, knowing that they
were stronger, faster, moreagile, more.
Their recuperation was amazing.
For example, if I took threedays to recuperate, they'd take
(05:38):
20 minutes.
And that's just in sport.
That's a huge advantage, justto be able to recuperate and
come back and get your systemback on track to compete.
So yeah, so we had all that.
And it was just the size of themas well, I mean their bulk and
(05:59):
the looks of them.
I mean they were, you know,highly, highly dosed up and some
of them have actually becomemen in effect during the process
, which is, of course, is aproblem in the whole scope of
things.
But as a competitor next tothem, you know it's tough, and I
(06:24):
think we were blown away inmontreal in 76 when they first
came to the scene in such adynamic way.
They won um 11 out of the 13 ummedals in swimming, uh, which
they also did in moscow, and tocome up against it, it was just
phenomenal really, and you hadto just look past it and put.
(06:47):
I've always said you have toput the blinkers on and not look
at your competitor, and it wasalways just a challenge for me
to, to, to swim my race, um, andnot consider who my opponent
was.
So it, so it's a mind overmatter.
It really is.
I mean, of course, becausetheir matter was so much bigger
(07:10):
and better than mine, but Iobviously had the mental
strength to pass through that.
Danielle Spurling (07:17):
Yeah, I can tell by reading the book and the
way you sort of, you know,described your approach because
you had your 200 butterfly firstand then your 400, and you
talked about the way the EastGermans worked as a team and the
tactics that they used to sortof take you out fast and throw
you off your race plan.
And I thought that was soinsightful from you as a 17 year
(07:40):
old to take those two sort oflessons and then take it into
your 800 and know what you weregoing to do.
Michelle Ford (07:45):
Oh, I just felt, I felt abused in the first two
races, in that I I saw myselfget swallowed into their game
and that's not usually how Iswim a race.
Once you do that, you give in,you give in to someone else's
race plan and it's very um, it's, it's hard to, it's hard to to
(08:09):
keep uh yourself focused, uh,because you see the swimmers on
either side of you going out andyou think that that's the speed
that is, and you're feelinggood and you go out with them.
And they were covered on bothsides.
And in those days we had threeum competitors from each um um
(08:30):
country.
Now it's only two, but withthree, what they did was they
sent the two out with like infront.
So I would go with them and inbutterfly, you look forward.
And the, the other, uh, eastgerman, on the outside lane of
where I was, uh, she'd come home, so they held her back to come
(08:52):
home and I I just got suckedinto their, their game plan.
And I think you know there was alot of other stuff, as you
probably read in the book thatthat happened in mosc, moscow.
That was totally disturbing.
You know you warm up beingdisturbed by not getting to the
pool in time and they'd alreadychanged, they'd already done the
(09:13):
warm-up and so you didn't havetime.
You had more doping controlsthan they ever did and that took
time.
So time out of your ownpreparation and your
concentration.
And you know, the food was welllet's put it this way not to be
desired, at least for where wecame from, and it was a totally
(09:38):
different regime diet and itjust didn't go with our swimming
program.
Danielle Spurling (09:46):
All the things you talked about in the
book and all of those hurdles.
It's absolutely amazing thatyou, you won that gold medal and
you were so resilient and andthe race was just brilliant to
watch.
You must look back on that nowand just you know that must send
shivers down your spine.
Michelle Ford (10:02):
Well, it does actually because that 800 metres
freestyle it was one of thelast events of the Games and I
of course got my bronze medal inthe 200 fly and fourth placing
in the 400 free.
So I went up to the 800 andwith my coach we said I'd take
(10:24):
it out easier, not go out withthem, hold back and of course
not hold back as much as I do,because I was a body and
something length behind when youwatch the race and I'm even
amazed that.
I said, wow, was I that farbehind?
And we decided we'd go at the200 instead of, you know, a 250
(10:45):
or 300 in an 800.
It's strategic as well.
But when I took off the wall, Ithink I surprised them because
I had changed my race tactics.
We didn't have all the videosback then to look at people's
races so that they had thesplits of my races so they could
work out from that.
(11:06):
But we didn't even know who was.
You know, the east germans.
I knew them by the girls in theblue suits.
I didn't even know their names.
It didn't really matter to mebecause they were just the girls
in the blue suits, uh, and theywere the ones to beat and and.
So when I went through thelineup.
(11:28):
What was crazy was my head wentinto.
Well, I've got to save myselfnow for the rest of the 800,
because I've gone out a bitearlier.
I've got to save myself becausethey're going to come back at
me because they've got more intheir tank than I ever will have
and that played on my mind forover 400 metres.
That's a long time and I'm justpacing myself thinking they're
(11:53):
coming back at me at this lengthbecause I didn't know their
race plan.
And, yeah, I got to and I saidwhen should I put the throttle
down?
When do I go on this?
And that's you come back to thewhen.
When do I go on this?
Uh, and, and that's you.
You come back to the pointwhere do you go for the time?
Or do you go for the win?
And in the Olympic Games, I'msorry, you go for the win?
(12:14):
Yeah, the time.
The time doesn't.
I mean the time is reflective,of course, and I would.
When I finished, I said I stillgot more in in my tank to keep
going because I'd saved it all,uh, but I was, I was well in
front, uh, at the end, and uh, I, I, I think they were very
(12:34):
disappointed and and and theythought they had it, and I think
the shock for the East Germangirls when they put their head
down on the block, when theytouched the wall, showed
everything that they weresupposed to take that out and I
had just completely annihilatedthem.
So it was a good film.
Danielle Spurling (12:55):
I bet it was.
It was great to watch and Ithink also that one of the
pictures you had in the book.
You were sort of in the middleof the two of them and they did
look a bit shell-shocked yeah, Idon't think it dawned the they
were told as a team.
Michelle Ford (13:14):
They were, as you said earlier.
They were um a team, theyworked as a team.
The coaches didn't care who won, they just had to win.
So, whatever that cost,whatever the cost was, they had
to win and they put anything,they'd sacrifice anything or
anyone to do that.
And hence you know, the dopingprogram was so, so, so, um, so
(13:38):
heavily uh in in, induced intothe poor girls, uh, but yeah,
they, they were verydisappointed because I think
they, they were, they felt shameas well.
I haven't spoken to them, butjust their faces, just their,
their attitude after um, they'dlet down their, their, their
(13:59):
team model, um, but yeah, Ididn't care about that yeah, of
course not at the time I washappy and you should be still
happy.
Danielle Spurling (14:12):
Have you ever had a chance to speak to any of
the East German swimmers fromthat time?
Not those two particularly, butany of the others?
Um look.
Michelle Ford (14:18):
I was to reach out to them all.
Sadly, we've got to get thecontext of this era, and it was
during the Cold War, and theEastern Bloc, as we called it,
was so closed, we called itbehind the Iron Curtain.
That being, no one could getinto any of those countries
(14:43):
without an invitation, and theinvitation was few and far
between, and you could only seewhat they wanted you to see.
Um, so our knowledge and ourrelationship with anyone on that
side of the curtain was aboutin non-existent.
So, and as time goes on, youknow, I I've put all this back
(15:05):
into the my my boxes and movedon.
Uh, but it was time.
It is time to tell this story,and I think it's not only my
story, it's many, as I said inthe beginning, many um of those
who participated, not only thefemales, but also the males and
and people from the Westernworld and the Eastern world.
(15:27):
We all bear some the anguish ofthat era, and I think it's now
time that that was resolved andthat we talk to it.
Danielle Spurling (15:38):
Yes, Do you have any hope that those medals
will be re-awarded to therightful owners?
Do you have any hope that thosemedals will be re-awarded to
the rightful owners?
Michelle Ford (15:45):
The IOC now has a program called the Medal
Reallocation Program, which isalready in place, and they've
done it for, you know, 2000,2008, 2012, 2016.
So it's not like it's a newthing for them.
2016.
(16:10):
So we're it's not like it's anew thing for them.
Uh, and it's.
It has to be said that the eastgerman girls and their doping
program was so meticulously runthat every part of their program
was written down.
So there's proof and that proofhas been taken to a court of
law in Germany from the girlsagainst their coaches and
(16:30):
administrators and they'veproven that they were doped and
they were doped heavily and tothe extent that was in the
papers or the files that cameout of the Stasi files, german
police at the time.
And with that proof, I thinkthe IOC and FINA and, of course,
(16:54):
athletics have to take thatinto consideration and say there
is proof here.
It's been called out in a courtof law.
We've got to remember that theeast germans were never tested
positive.
They had a very, as you saidearlier, their the scientific
knowledge.
The people who were testing itwere the same people who were
(17:15):
making the drugs.
So you will always put one alittle bit behind the other and
you know you can switch out justmolecules of an ingredient and
the test doesn't pull it upuntil later.
And that's where the ioc istoday.
With their blood testing theycan actually look in and see if
(17:38):
that was the those bannedsubstances were actually used.
So they can go back in timewhich they had done to call out
the cheats yeah, so do they haveany samples stored from 1980?
1976, 1976 and 1980, um, I thinkup until maybe 92 or 98, I'd
(18:05):
have to reconfirm that but itwas based on urine samples and
until they got the blood testinghappening.
Now it's obviously more precise.
But with urine you have to bevery specific and you can't keep
a urine sample and that's.
I can hear there the voices ofcaution saying that you know
(18:29):
well, we haven't got the proofon the day, et cetera.
But the proof is on the day.
They were actually giventestosterone and anabolic
steroids and otherperformance-enhancing drugs
leading up to the blocks on thatday.
Okay, in Moscow there was nopositive test.
(18:50):
You have to ask yourself howdid that happen?
Danielle Spurling (18:55):
So the IOC have this committee now and do
World Aquatics have any say insort of moving that along so
that people can get some kind ofresolution, or is it just sort
of sitting there talking aboutit?
Michelle Ford (19:09):
Well, it's a bit of a tit-for-tat program, but
the FINA, the World Body, nowWorld Aquatics has its
jurisdiction for the swimmingworld and the swimming
championships, except at theOlympic Games, although they're
party to the Olympic Games andthey subscribe to the Olympic
(19:32):
Games, that the program ofdoping is actually under the
auspices of the InternationalOlympic Committee and not the
Federation, whereby all worldchampionships which is the same
question why hasn't FINA actedin a way?
So, to answer your question, yes, it has to be the two well, one
(19:56):
body or the other, and or both,that can subscribe to looking
at the record books andrealigning them with what their
constitution and what the fairplay and the ideals of sport and
(20:19):
a fair playing field, anddoping is the most dangerous and
the most shameful abuse ofthose ideals.
And therefore I do believe thatthey have to do something to
answer this, because not onlythe West that being America,
england, australia they lost outon their medal placings the
(20:47):
East Germans as well want to seethis, the reconciliation of
this and the recognition, andset the record book straight.
Danielle Spurling (20:57):
So I think it is time that this is spoken to
and in 1980, not only did youhave to deal with what was
happening with the East Germans,we had a boycott in Australia
and the Fraser governmentdecided not to endorse sending a
team.
How did that play into yourmindset?
(21:17):
Because in reading through that, I mean I didn't realise that
there was a number.
They made a decision, the AOCmade a decision to go, but then
they decided again and they hadanother vote and it was all up
in the air.
How does that play on your mindwhen you're training?
Michelle Ford (21:33):
It was horrific and you know the athletes that
went to Moscow lived through themost disastrous time in sport I
think ever, and especially inAustralia, although you know
people said, oh well, you went,but we went through so much
(21:53):
hardship.
The team you know, we weregiven this we're going, we're
not, we're going, we're not,we're going, we're not.
Would you get into the pool anddo the amount of training
that's needed to get that?
The precision and the physiqueand the mental?
(22:14):
It just played on our minds somuch that our competition ended
up being, you know, whetherwe're going or not, just getting
on the blocks, just gettingonto the plane was a real
struggle for us and it went on.
For when Carter called thePresident, carter, the US
(22:35):
President, called the threat ofa boycott in January.
That was only six months outfrom the games.
Now if you look at the kidstoday, they're in total heavy
training.
Their, their minds are set fora goal.
Now, if you disturb that bysaying, look, mate, we're not
sure if you're going, you knowwell, maybe you are, maybe
(22:58):
you're not, maybe who knows?
Uh, and we had already beenselected.
So we knew we were on the teamand whether or not we were going
.
So and then, you know, my familyand and, and myself and and and
others received death threatsbecause Australia was torn apart
over this.
The government was asking forus not to go.
(23:19):
The Olympic Committee, who hasthe right of decision whether or
not a country participates?
The invitation is sent to thenational Olympic body, not the
government.
Invitation is sent to thenational olympic body, not the
government.
Uh, for that reason, um, thethe national body was able to um
override that and say yes, weare, we are sending a team and I
(23:43):
I believe, uh, quite honestly,that um, the by us going to the
games, uh, the olympic movementhas survived.
If we didn't go to the games,the Olympic movement has
survived.
If we didn't go to the Games,if some of the Western countries
didn't go to those Games, therewould be no more Olympics.
So, in effect, I think we, youknow, held the torch alight for
(24:06):
future generations.
Danielle Spurling (24:08):
Yeah, absolutely.
I just can't even imagine thepressure that you are under then
oh, it was horrific, it wasterrible.
Michelle Ford (24:17):
I I well you sort of say why am I?
Why am I training?
Why am I in the pool?
Why am I doing all these hardyards?
Um, for for what?
Um, so your mind's going allover the place.
In one day you go oh look, giveit a go, it a go.
They haven't yet called it.
And then you're sitting on theedge of your seat waiting for
another decision.
And then the government madethem to make another decision,
(24:39):
and then even another decision,and so we were battled with
three decision-making processes,and that was only.
We're only talking four weeksout from the games.
This happened four weeks that's.
Danielle Spurling (24:55):
That's just crazy, isn't it?
I just it's just hard toimagine because all obviously I
was quite young then, so I Ididn't sort of know all that
sort of stuff behind it.
I just watched it on tv and sawyou win and saw Mishka the
little bear and the openingceremony and thought, oh wow,
this is what I want to do.
But you don't realise until youhear someone's story written
(25:17):
down like that what was going onbehind the scenes.
That's why it's such animportant story to tell.
Michelle Ford (25:22):
Yeah, thanks, danielle, and I think too, the
story is one of the first of anathlete who lived through that
journey and also because laterafter my career I was part of
(25:44):
well, I've been privy to theadministration of sport and how
that all works, and I was ableto add the contextual part of it
into the story and hopefullyexpressed it in more simple
terms, because it is a complexworld of sport is complex and
(26:04):
people sort of say, you know,it's, it's the coach, it's the,
it's the, the head of the, thesport, and it's the referees.
You know.
But it's a lot more complexthan all that.
There's a lot of parameters init and I think to be able to put
that in the story and talk alsoof the East German girls in the
(26:28):
story because I wanted to havethat parallel in the book so
that there is.
You know, how we were treatedback in Australia was horrific.
We had to put up with I callthem the men in blue suits other
than the girls in blue suits,but the administrators didn't
(26:50):
want us.
It seemed like they didn't wantus to win, they didn't want us
to do well and we were hamperedevery step of the way.
Every step of the way.
We had problems, and that's notonly me, but I think most of
the athletes in Australia atleast.
We were fought with thisquestion of how do we get
(27:14):
through our own system?
Yes, and yet the East Germanswere, you know, looked after.
They were given their cars,they were given their houses,
they were pampered, they weregiven massages, they were given
all this as a parallel.
Danielle Spurling (27:30):
We were treated like you know um,
political pawns in a, in a in afry pan, just to use us for
their own egos yeah, I mean,it's amazing and and amongst
that I feel your description ofyou know, the female athletes,
even being female swimmers,being even sort of more harshly
(27:51):
dealt with than the maleswimmers.
The male swimmers having abetter hotel, motel and bit, you
know, better conditions andbeing able to go out and all
those kind of things, and thefemale swimmers, no, and and
weigh-ins, which still happeningtoday, still happen today, you
know, happening you know, andthey're still talking about
those things today.
Why haven't they improved?
Michelle Ford (28:12):
yeah it, it's something that the sports needs
to at least give the opportunity.
We always used to look to theUS as the starring group because
we felt that they were muchbetter looked after than we were
(28:34):
.
And you know, I think it causesa lot of friction, not only up
to the administration level, butalso in the team itself,
because they have and thehave-nots and the and it was.
It was just so, um so sad tosee, you know, the, the females,
(28:57):
just being treated um sodifferently than the males, and
probably the males didn't evensee that difference because they
were living a different worldthan us.
You know that they were allowedthe food on the plane and we
weren't.
We were locked in our rooms forsix hours and they were allowed
out to the steeplechase just asan adventure.
(29:21):
It was just all wrong.
It was so wrong.
Danielle Spurling (29:27):
Absolutely, absolutely.
I mean, look, we've come a longway.
I mean these Olympic Games aregoing to be 50-50 representation
of female and male, but it'staken a long time to get there.
Michelle Ford (29:38):
Yes, and after 1980, President Samaranch, the
IOC president, because the IOCwas on its knees because they
had no, they were, they werestruggling to to stay relevant.
(29:59):
There was the goodwill games,there was other things happening
around, and that the world ofsport had come apart at that
moment, and I was fortunate tobe invited as one of the 25
athletes around the world toaddress the IOC, and we've got
to remember before that theathlete was treated, we weren't
(30:23):
allowed a voice, there was noacts.
If you opened your mouth, youwere condemned and you were
punished, whereas now we'veopened that door and the I think
the our, what we did, uh atthat congress, uh, and and um, I
say that the sebastian co andthomas bark and and I were in
(30:46):
this room writing out thespeeches to actually address the
congress and say we want genderequality.
This is no good.
To have a 22 percent of femaleparticipation, uh, there's no
reason for it.
Um, also, there was no femalesin the administration of sport.
(31:06):
No ioc member was a female.
So that this is only what 40years ago.
I know it sounds a long time,but and we've come a long way,
but finally we're 50, 50 inParis, as you say uh of
participation, um numbersnumbers numbers yes, it's not
exactly 50.
Danielle Spurling (31:26):
50, yeah, yeah exactly and administration
wise, because I know you'veyou've worked at um Commission
in Australia and SwimmingAustralia in the IOC.
Now is that becoming a littlebit more balanced or is it still
heavily weighted in the malefavour?
Michelle Ford (31:45):
Look, there's still a long way to go, right, I
think in all the sport I thinkthere's, you know, and I sat on
the boards and I see theattitude and sure, I mean, when
you bring athletes on board,we're strong characters.
We have to be in order tosucceed.
But there is a lot ofintelligence in that quorum of
(32:13):
athletes and we need to embracethat.
And I think there's still aceiling that has to be broken by
moving the age even on, andthey keep putting the age limits
on.
But, for example, in Fa, we hada president who was 80,
(32:35):
whatever years of age.
How is that?
How is that relevant to today?
Who sees the athlete of today?
Uh, there's too much of a gapand I think there are some good
people in sport and we have tolet them through the door yes,
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree.
Danielle Spurling (32:53):
I mean I think I hope all the young
female swimmers out there readyour book because you know I
love the fact that you stillpursued your academic side of
things as well as your swimming,which must have been pretty
tough at the time.
But you obviously went andstudied in the US.
How did that impact yourswimming long term, do you think
(33:14):
?
Michelle Ford (33:16):
Oh, that was my saviour really Going to the US.
It was the first time that theNC2As opened.
Well, it was under a differenttitle back then, but they opened
the door to female title backthen, but they opened the door
to female scholarships tocomplete your education with
(33:37):
your athletic career.
And it was such a I would havegiven up swimming Because I came
back from Moscow, I was offeredthe first scholarship to the
AIS, the Institute of Sport, andwhen they turned around and
(33:57):
said, but you'll only beswimming and you won't be doing
education, I said sorry, I'vegot to reject the offer because
I knew I needed my education andif I had another one year, two,
of just swimming, I wasn't able.
You know, when you finishswimming, you don't.
You don't have anything youneed.
You need an education tofulfill your, your, your life
(34:22):
after sport, uh, whatever thatlooks like, um, but you do need
to to maintain that education.
And the US was was my saviourin doing that and being able to
swim, of course, onto 84.
Danielle Spurling (34:37):
Take us back to the very start of your career
, which I mean you had someremarkable achievements at a
really young age, like breakinga lot of Shane Gould's early
records.
How did that sort of shape,what you were going to
eventually sort of come into,leading into 1980, those sort of
early experiences in Sydney?
Michelle Ford (34:58):
I think that the early experiences is that, um,
you know, making the team waswas just the biggest and best
thing that um and I was 13 atthe time, so it did come early
in my career, so I didn't haveto wait too long.
Today that's not possiblebecause they and even back then
(35:21):
it was questionable whether youshould take such a young athlete
across, but I had.
My eyes were on winning gold atMontreal, so the age didn't
worry me, wasn't a concern to me, but it was to everyone else.
I think there was the onslaught, of course, of what we said.
The East Germans sort of hithome hard.
(35:43):
And when I came back and thetreatment of us for the
preparation for those games,after making the team all
excited, you think, wow, we'regoing to be looked after, and
I'd heard stories and it was adream.
But then I started that journeyand it was just a tragedy.
(36:05):
We were billeted out.
We were at the other side ofthe country, four hours away.
The other side of the country,four hours away, three hours in
time, changes and nocommunication with our families,
no communication with ourcoaches.
We didn't even have our owncoaches.
We had no one who knew us or wedidn't know anyone.
(36:28):
We had to make the new friendson the team and we had to train
with coaches who we never, nevereven knew about.
So and I think that was reallytough for 13 year olds and 14
year olds, um, and then we gotto Moscow and hit the East
Germans, so that was.
That was another rolling ball uh, right, right in front of
(36:50):
double whammies, you know, andit, but I do think it makes you
strong.
I mean it obviously, um, butwhen I came back from montreal I
wanted to to quit swimming, um,and I was had to be, you know,
coerced back into the pool and Ithink a lot of athletes you
know you have a bad experienceand it kills your dreams and
(37:14):
that's what administrators needto understand.
You can't kill those dreams.
The dreams are the importantpart of an athletic career.
Danielle Spurling (37:22):
Yeah, that's a great point.
I love that when you were 13 inMontreal and at 15 you broke
800 metre world record, whichyou didn't swim the 800 in
Montreal.
What made you transition tothat longer distance?
Michelle Ford (37:39):
The longer distance was the coercion back
into the pool to swim, an eventthat wasn't one of my pet events
.
My pet events were the 200freestyle.
Well, the events that I madethe 76 games was a 200 freestyle
and 200 butterfly and the 400freestyle in fact.
But when I came back, the mediais very, very persuasive here
(38:08):
and, and you know, if you did abad time, I I felt that it would
have been a quick, you know,crucifying me for the rest of my
career.
So I didn't want to go out likethat.
My coach said let's go into arace that you've never swum
before and see how you feel.
And sadly for me, because Idon't like the 800, I didn't
(38:29):
like the distances, but I stillswam so well that I was very
close to the world record timejust by swimming my first 800.
And then that became a target.
Yeah, silly things happen, butyou know, sometimes you don't
get to choose what you're goodat yes, yes, exactly right.
Danielle Spurling (38:52):
And when you broke that world record, um,
when you were 15.
What do you remember about that?
That race, that day?
Michelle Ford (38:59):
It was such a funny story because I'd gone up
to this was a new program inAustralia.
Australia was critical that wehadn't any international
competition.
We'd only compete twice a yearand once nationally.
So and we had no internationalcompetition except for the
(39:20):
Olympic Games and theCommonwealth Games, and that was
it.
There was no.
The World Championships hadjust started at that time, so
there was just before, but notlike we see today.
So we were critical.
The sport had to do something.
So there was a sponsor who cameto the fore and said let's do a
(39:42):
different set-up a finals, justfinals, finals.
And I said that's me, I canjust swim once and that will do
me.
So, yeah, I went up and swam, Iwas swimming along and you know
, I was out in front and I allof a sudden clicked over into a
(40:04):
song, but only two lines of thesong and it just went over and
over and over in my head.
So I totally lost count of the16 laps that I had to swim, and
waiting for that whistle to blowwas the longest, because I
thought have I overstepped mymark, have I gone too far?
But when the whistle blows youhave two laps left, and when I
(40:28):
heard that whistle, I go.
Yes, I've got two laps left Off, I go and I broke the world
record and it was out of theblue in a way for me and I beat
the East Germans time.
So I obviously had it in me andI wouldn't say it's a relaxing
(40:50):
swim.
No, swim is relaxing, but tosing a song, you're in a zone
and that zone gives you thatenergy.
I guess and I've heard a lot ofswimmers since say I'm in that
zone and that zone is theultimate moment that yeah, it
(41:12):
obviously works.
Danielle Spurling (41:15):
What was your breathing pattern?
Did you have one or did youjust breathe when you needed to?
No, every three.
Michelle Ford (41:21):
Every three.
I was always no every three,every three.
I was always coached everythree.
I was very regular on mybreathing and you know, in
swimming you can have differentbody types but you can all
achieve the same time.
I mean, I know that now is abit more, they seem like they're
(41:44):
more one body type, but backthen we were all different body
types.
But you achieve the same goaland each one has a different
stroke, so no one stroke works.
We didn't have thebiomechanical data nor the
(42:05):
physiology of how to you knowand the nutrition, and there was
no scientific research.
And I must say, going back tothe East Germans, I believe that
they actually introduced thatinto the sport because they
weren't only doping, they werealso using different methods of
coaching and using the lactates,using the um, breathing per lap
(42:31):
, using the um, the recuperationand, uh, dynamics, uh, with the
heavy workload and how muchrest you need and giving the
athlete the rest.
We never got that rest.
We were just flogged andflogged and flogged and flogged
and that's why I always workbetter with my first coach and
(42:54):
to do 90%.
And that's what they're doingtoday.
They're doing the 80%, 90% hitouts rather than the up and
downs, so it's become moreexciting.
I wish I was a swimmer today.
I know, I know are you?
in the water at all these days.
Yeah, yeah, I still, I stillswim, uh I.
(43:17):
I use it as my what I call myzen moment.
Um, all my mind thinks and putsthings in order.
So I think it's a beautifulsport and um, it's good on the
body and it uh I I think it's,um we just yeah, it being in the
the water is is for me, uh,just my element how many um sort
(43:40):
of opportunities in pools doyou get in spitzeland?
yeah, look, I, I started up anadult, um, swim, swim school, uh
, and so I, I, I teach, I teachthe adults, um, and I, I, you
know, swim myself and they'rethey're myself, and there are
(44:03):
pools around.
There's less access than thereis in Australia for pools, but I
come back to Australia veryoften too, and, yes, I love the
ocean.
Yes, yes, and we are lucky hereto have the ocean at our front
door.
Danielle Spurling (44:20):
Yes, oh lovely.
What do you think setsAustralian swimmers apart from
the rest of the world?
Because I think the culturethat they have around the team
now is looking, I think, a lotbetter than it was a few years
ago.
What do you think about thatculture and what we do here in
Australia?
Michelle Ford (44:41):
Look, I agree with you and I think that it's
where I borrow the idea of theteam.
They've become a team.
We were individuals, althoughwe were a team and had great
friendship.
We were just a group ofindividuals thrown together and
they never brought us in as ateam, and I think that is one of
(45:06):
the most important factors forperformance is to have a group
behind you and all going for thesame thing.
So the jealousies are taken out,and sure, we're not talking
about competition, we're talkingabout jealousy and there's a
difference between the two, andI think we suffered a lot of
(45:29):
jealousies from theadministration down and jealousy
was probably part of theculture, not between athletes,
it was more.
But you felt that coming downToday I hear that now they've
got their own coaches on deck.
The coaches, if they've got theswimmer on the team, they have
(45:54):
access to their athlete and thatmakes a huge difference and the
coaches themselves are morealigned with each other than
back in the day when they werealso individuals.
So I think there's a mending ofthat and you know more of a
(46:16):
group help and they obviouslyhave all the external assistance
as well that we didn't have,and they have psychologists, and
I think that is like I didsports psych, my master's in
sports psych, and I see you knowit's like in business that it's
(46:38):
about performance, it's aboutreaching further.
How do you get those goals andwhere do we go with those?
And I think that's what's borninto it and trained and pampered
in a way to increase theperformance options that they
(46:59):
have.
And you know, you can see it ondeck how um they stand with
more uh, they stand proudthey're, they're positive,
they're you know you, when youtalk to them, they're more um,
happier people.
I think I say that in a generalterm, but happier people on the
(47:19):
deck.
And where we were stragglylittle kids, you know we were,
even though we had a role, butwe were just teenagers.
And now they're, of course, 28,29, 30s and I can see why they
stay in From Baden-Baden in theCongress of the IOC.
(47:42):
And sorry to take this back tothat, but that's when we asked
for the opening of the amateurrule.
Before we couldn't earn money.
Today they can, and by us, theathletes, having that voice and
opening that up and forcing theadministration to open up the
(48:08):
opportunity for athletes to earnmoney.
We see that today and I thinkthat was a huge win for athletes
to actually be able to earnmoney.
Danielle Spurling (48:21):
I mean, it's a huge legacy that you've left
the sport by being able to dothat from your own successes and
then having that academic andeducation side behind you.
I'm sure that was one of thereasons that you were chosen to
go to Baden-Baden because you'rearticulate and able to express
those thoughts.
So the swimmers that are on ourteam or about to be on our team
(48:44):
today, I hope that they readthis book as well, so that they
know what you did, yeah.
Michelle Ford (48:50):
I think it's an important part of who they are
today and it's so, so important.
I did, actually, in writingthis book.
I wrote a book for the IOC onthe athlete's voice and traced
with a German professor andtraced the program from
(49:14):
Baden-Baden and on to today, soon to 2000.
But it's an important part ofthe history of why they they're
able now to live in theirfive-star hotels or whatever.
You know, there's more money insport because of it.
Sport, I mean sure it'schanging and and we know that
(49:35):
it's changing again today, butat least it's set a new standard
and one that you know now theathlete can stay until they're
33.
But back then you had to go andget a job.
You had no choice.
Danielle Spurling (49:52):
I wanted to finish off today by asking you
about some of the coaches thatyou've worked with, like Bill
Sweetenum, don Talbot, dick Kane, who was the toughest and who
did you enjoy working with themost?
Michelle Ford (50:06):
Oh, they were all tough.
They were all very, very tough.
There's tough and tough.
What we did with Don Talbot wasjust crazily tough.
I mean it just blew my mindthat he would invent anything
(50:27):
and it's to do.
And I think the coaches thatworked the best for me were
those who understood that thechallenge you've got to put a
challenge in front of theathlete, you have to keep
challenging them.
You have to say and give them agoal, even though it's like in
(50:49):
a training set, I think there'sa goal that has to when you want
performance, when you want themto stretch out and get that
little bit extra that we searchfor for the threshold and
everything else.
I think there's that.
And if a coach can read you,you well, I've always said a
good coach is an artist as well.
They're a bit crazy.
A lot of them are very crazy.
(51:10):
No, don't take that wrong, youcoaches, but I'm probably crazy
too.
So, um, I think it's more so aswell reading your athlete.
And if you can read the athleteand I always said a good coach
has to know is a good trainer ofanimals, like my first coach
(51:33):
was a good trainer of horses andhe went out and he coached the
horses and then come back to thepool and coach us.
But a horse doesn't talk, ofcourse, and you have to learn to
read the signs and I thinkthat's the sign of a good coach.
And toughness.
Sadly, it is tough.
(51:56):
Swimming is tough, but it'salso a team sport.
And people think not, but it'sa team sport and people think
not, but it is a team sport.
And the camaraderie in thereand the joy you have in in just
having your teammates, uh, Ithink overrides any of you know
you're living the same thing, soyou all go through the same
program.
(52:16):
Uh, so you know, and it'sachieving your results, whatever
they are.
They don't have to be the goldmedal, but they could be, you
know, just a time, or justfeeling good in the water.
So, as long as you allcontinually set your goals, I
think that that's and the coachhas to be part of that.
(52:39):
They have to feed that to you.
Danielle Spurling (52:44):
Michelle, it's been such a pleasure
talking to you today.
I could talk to you all daybecause I love hearing about all
these stories, but I reallyprobably do need to let you go.
So thank you, thank you very,very much and wishing you every
success with the book, and we'llput a link to the book, um, and
where people can buy it in ourshow notes so that they can
check it out brilliant.
Michelle Ford (53:05):
Thank you very much and thanks again and um to
all your listeners.
Um, you know you're, you're agreat interviewer.
Danielle Spurling (53:12):
You've gone over every single point oh good,
I'm glad we covered it allthank you very much for having
me on the show.
Okay, thanks, michelle Bye.
Michelle Ford (53:27):
Okay, cheers.
Danielle Spurling (53:29):
Thanks to Michelle for her honesty and
generosity in sharing her storywith us today on the podcast.
I've put a link to her new bookTurning the Tide in today's
show notes.
It's a really great read andwell worth checking out.
Till next time, happy swimmingand bye for now.
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