November 21, 2025 • 48 mins
Episode Guest: Marianne Robb & Dave Rich – UAP-PD (Unidentified Anomalous Phenomenon Police Department)
In this gripping episode, retired Arizona law enforcement officers Marianne Robb and Dave Rich – with a combined 59 years on the job – pull back the curtain on one of the most taboo topics in policing: encounters with Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena (UAP), paranormal events, and cryptids.
As founders of the UAP-PD, Marianne and Dave reveal why so many officers and first responders have stayed silent about what they’ve seen in the line of duty – from inexplicable lights in the Arizona sky to chilling ground-level confrontations with the unknown. They share their own firsthand experiences and compelling stories collected from fellow officers who finally felt safe enough to speak. What happens when the people sworn to protect and serve come face-to-face with phenomena they can’t explain… and aren’t allowed to talk about?
Why do seasoned cops, deputies, and dispatchers choose silence over sharing evidence that could change everything? Join us for an eye-opening conversation that bridges the gap between badge and bizarre, featuring some of the most credible and unsettling UAP, paranormal, and cryptid cases ever reported by law enforcement professionals. Prepare to have your perception of reality challenged – this is where law enforcement meets the truly unknown.
Part 1 of 2
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/total-disclosure-podcast--5975113/support.
CONTACT TDP DIRECTLY For Collaboration, Use of Segments/clips, or any other media produced by “TDP” —TY.TotalDisclosure@gmail.com
Special Thank you to all of our PODCAST/YouTube Channel Members for your continued support, and dedication to seeking the truth, together. We can’t do this WITHOUT YOU!
-COPYRIGHT-2020-
Copyright Disclaimer: Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for "fair use" for purposes such as criticism, commenting, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing. Non-profit, educational or personal use tips the balance in favor of fair use. Total Disclosure Podcast Copyright 2020 and … segments, early access to interviews, and a yearly gift autographed by yours truly!thank you in advance now, Let's explore the unknown together! =============================================================================
In this gripping episode, retired Arizona law enforcement officers Marianne Robb and Dave Rich – with a combined 59 years on the job – pull back the curtain on one of the most taboo topics in policing: encounters with Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena (UAP), paranormal events, and cryptids.
As founders of the UAP-PD, Marianne and Dave reveal why so many officers and first responders have stayed silent about what they’ve seen in the line of duty – from inexplicable lights in the Arizona sky to chilling ground-level confrontations with the unknown. They share their own firsthand experiences and compelling stories collected from fellow officers who finally felt safe enough to speak. What happens when the people sworn to protect and serve come face-to-face with phenomena they can’t explain… and aren’t allowed to talk about?
Why do seasoned cops, deputies, and dispatchers choose silence over sharing evidence that could change everything? Join us for an eye-opening conversation that bridges the gap between badge and bizarre, featuring some of the most credible and unsettling UAP, paranormal, and cryptid cases ever reported by law enforcement professionals. Prepare to have your perception of reality challenged – this is where law enforcement meets the truly unknown.
Part 1 of 2
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/total-disclosure-podcast--5975113/support.
CONTACT TDP DIRECTLY For Collaboration, Use of Segments/clips, or any other media produced by “TDP” —TY.TotalDisclosure@gmail.com
Special Thank you to all of our PODCAST/YouTube Channel Members for your continued support, and dedication to seeking the truth, together. We can’t do this WITHOUT YOU!
-COPYRIGHT-2020-
Copyright Disclaimer: Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for "fair use" for purposes such as criticism, commenting, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing. Non-profit, educational or personal use tips the balance in favor of fair use. Total Disclosure Podcast Copyright 2020 and … segments, early access to interviews, and a yearly gift autographed by yours truly!thank you in advance now, Let's explore the unknown together! =============================================================================
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Welcome back to Total Disclosure. Everyone.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
My name's Ty and I am the host of the show.
Total Disclosure is where we dig deep into the unknown,
the unexplained, and the unbelievable and bring truth to focus. Today,
I'm super happy to be joined by two extraordinary guests
who are doing something few I've dared to do. They're
(01:01):
bridging the gap between law enforcement and the unexplained. Together,
they've got nearly six decades of experience in policing. Mary
and Rob, who I've met at Contact in the Desert,
is a retired Arizona officer with thirty four years of
service from arson and narcotics investigations to crime prevention and
forensic construction. She has spent the last decade applying that
(01:25):
same discipline to the study of UFOs, the paranormal and beyond.
Dave Rich, also a retired officer with the Arizona PD,
twenty five years in the field, working everything from homicide
and ganging investigations to school resource work. He brings some
of the meticulous eye for detail to this anomalous world
(01:47):
of encounters.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
The two co founded what is known as.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
UAPPD, an organization creating a safe zone for officers and
first responders to share their UFO paranormal encrypted encounters without
stigma or the fear of retribution. When it comes to
their career. Their emission is to bring professionalism, evidence based methods,
(02:13):
and respect to investigations of the unknown. Again, we're dealing
with the most complex phenomena in ever, so again we
have to be humble, we have to be open to
things that we can't really quite explain. In this conversation,
we'll unpack how UAPPD is changing the culture around the
(02:35):
unexplained phenomena and why it's time for law enforcement to
play a leading role in uncovering the truth. So with that,
before we get into it, make sure to share and subscribe,
and if you're listening to one of the great podcast platforms,
please leave a rating and review. Takes twenty seconds and
it really helps to show get out to a broader audience.
(02:56):
We can't do this without you, and I truly, from
the bottom of my heart, thank you. So let's get
into it. Here are Mary Anne and Dave the U
a p p D. And I didn't have the thank
you to the U A p p D. H.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Well, Hello, I'm.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
Gonna have to edit that little uh that little intro
there right at the end. But other than that, I'm
super happy to have you here.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Guys.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
Well, thank you, Thanks, we'd love to be here. We
appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Yeah, Mary, Maryanne. I met you at Contact in the Desert,
and I remember, I remember, I think I had left
my phone. This might have been when we first had met,
but I introduced.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
Chris Bledsoe.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
On his panel and then I left my phone on
stage and then I jumped off stage and then ran
out the door because I had a bunch of interviews
I was conducting throughout those you know, four days, and uh,
I think that's when I met you. And I was
instantly like, I got to have these people are on
what they're doing is so cool. You're friends with Mark D'Antonio,
(04:12):
which is I mean, he's one of my favorite people
on the planet. So it seemed like it was inevitable.
Speaker 4 (04:21):
Oh well, that was pretty funny, though I remembered you
were in an absolute panic because you didn't have your
phone and your whole life is on the phone.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
Oh it was, It was.
Speaker 4 (04:31):
It was so cute and you were just so awesome
and it was great to be able to finally meet
you and Mark's talked so much highly about me, talk
so much about you and so highly. I was real
excited to get to meet you and talk to you.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
For a little bit.
Speaker 4 (04:50):
You were running around like a chicken with the head
cut off, so and stuff. So I was so happy
to at least spend a few minutes with you talking
about just everything that's going on.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
Yeah, and yeah, I think one of the coolest parts
about about conferences, conferences like that is that it I mean, yeah,
you can go, you can go for the you know,
the lectures, and you can go for the speakers if
you want to hear certain somebody. But I find that
(05:24):
what they're really really good for is that networking of
like minded individuals. So it was really nice and and
I'm really excited to get into it with uh Dave
as well. So, I mean, without further further delay, well
let's jump right in.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
Both of you spent decades.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
In law enforcement, and you had careers built on truth,
evidence and accountability.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
We'll start.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
You know, however, you guys want to start, you know,
bounce off of each other, that's quite all right. It's
it's easier said than done. We'll try not to tako
over each other. But what moment or experience made you
step across that line into the unknown and into the
world of UFOs and the unexplained.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
Well, let me go ahead and start off again. You've
introduced me, and I thank you for that.
Speaker 4 (06:21):
Mary Anne Rob thirty four years as a police officer
here in Arizona. The last twenty six years was with
the Gilbert Police Department, where I met Dave.
Speaker 3 (06:32):
We worked many years together, partnering up.
Speaker 4 (06:37):
But as an officer, I've worked as you said, I
was a narcotics officer, I was a crime prevention, an
arson detective, and property crimes and of course, like we
all start out as a police officer, patrol.
Speaker 5 (06:52):
Now, patrol was.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
Always my favorite.
Speaker 4 (06:54):
I just love to be out there in my patrol
car by myself, just you know, cruising around taking calls.
That was always my favorite. But also I had hobbies.
Of course, I love to fish, love to hunt, especially
here in Arizona. But one of the organizations that Dave
and I were both involved in for probably close to
ten years was an organization called moufon, which is the
(07:18):
Mutual UFO Network.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
And excuse me, we were out here in.
Speaker 4 (07:23):
The Phoenix area and we also became field investigators, and
that was kind of an interesting.
Speaker 3 (07:32):
Position through Moufon, you know, being cops ourselves.
Speaker 4 (07:36):
It was kind of nice doing these investigations because we
knew how to interview.
Speaker 3 (07:41):
Now we know.
Speaker 4 (07:41):
How to interrogate, but we can't interrogate these folks, but
we know body language, we know what to look for.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
And one of the things we did for.
Speaker 4 (07:51):
Moufon is when we had the boot camp for about
six years, Phoenix did a boot camp, a Fueld Investigator
boot camp, and our training, what we taught everybody was
the advanced interview techniques. So that's what you know, that's
what we did with these new guys that wanted to
(08:14):
become field investigators or people that were already field investigators
that wanted to just brush up on their techniques. So
we're doing that. And I was at a meeting one
of the move On meetings in Phoenix, oh gosh, probably
mid twenty twenty two, so about three years ago or so,
and the topic was disclosure and that military started to
(08:41):
come forward and talking which the disclosure. They're trying to,
you know, talk to about my own personal They'll never
be disclosure. That's that's just me. So after the meeting
was over, I'm thinking, I'm talking to a good friend
of mine, Olejandro Rojas, and we're like.
Speaker 5 (08:56):
Wait a minute. You got the military talking, You've.
Speaker 3 (08:59):
Got airline pilots.
Speaker 4 (09:01):
They're starting to talk, and then disclosure disclosure thing comes out,
and I'm thinking, Wow, we're police officers, we're first responders.
We're part of that whole grouping of cops, firefighters.
Speaker 3 (09:15):
You know, nursing em tis all that. Why aren't we talking.
Speaker 4 (09:20):
There's over eight hundred thousand law enforcement officers just in
this country alone, and.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Those are all trained observer, at least to a degree,
all trained professional observers. That in my opinion, again, I'm
not saying like a cop or someone in the military,
you know, their sighting is more credible than a citizen's,
but you're also trained to see things that others just
(09:51):
will miss.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
Exactly exactly. That's how I've all seen.
Speaker 4 (09:56):
You know, there's cops, like I said, there's eight hundred thousand,
and they're working day, they're working night.
Speaker 3 (10:01):
They're out there like I always love to be on patrol.
Speaker 4 (10:03):
I'm out there under the big open sky and there
are cops there. You know they're seeing things. But again,
why aren't they talking? So that evening I gave Dave
a call and I told him about the meeting, and
I told him about what Alejandro and I spoke about.
And I says, dude, why aren't they talking? Why aren't
(10:25):
cops talking about this stuff? And all you've had to
say was I'll tell you exactly why they're not talking.
And then he proceeded to tell me why. And I'm
going to let him take over from here.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
Oh what a what A what a swing? I love it.
Speaker 5 (10:44):
So just to go a little bit back to my
history and how I got involved twenty five years as
a police officer. I started in patrol like everybody else,
and then I went to gangs. I worked a gang
unit for a while, and then I went to homicide
and sex crime, so I worked homicide, sex crimes, child crimes.
Then I ended up over in our gang unit but
(11:05):
specializing in narcotics, got involved in a DEA task force,
and then I ended up back as an SRO to
finish off my career just kind of working with alien
life forms, which were high school students. But when up
until it's ironic because up until twenty seventeen, I would
(11:28):
be considered what was a hardcore skeptic. I did not
believe ghosts exist. I didn't believe UFOs exist. I didn't
believe Bigfoot existed. I thought it was all just misidentifications. Something,
you know, somebody saw something that they shouldn't, or it
was military craft or something like that. But then in
twenty seventeen, I had an experience while I was working,
and this is the story that I went to tell
(11:50):
Marianne about. Was when I was working as a school
resource officer at one of the schools, we received a
nine to one one call from the front desk of
the school. Call sounded like a woman that said I'm scared.
Dispatcher says you're scared. It says no, and then you
hear the phone drop on the countertop. So they dispatch
(12:10):
two officers to it. They go to it, make entry
with a knoxbox key. They don't find anybody inside there.
They find the phone laying on the counter. They pick
it up and talk to the dispatcher was still online
trying to get the person to pick up the phone.
They do a search. When they go walking into the
nurses office, something that neither of them could see sclved
past them and out They run out of the nurse's office.
(12:32):
They don't see anything there but something physically.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
So yeah, So you're saying like when you got there,
when when you guys got there the phone was was
there and it would it was still patched through to dispatch.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
It had never hung up.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
And then something that you guys can't see walks and
pushes past you.
Speaker 5 (12:58):
Well, I wasn't there.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
It was two patrol Oh that's what I meant. I'm sorry.
I'm sorry.
Speaker 5 (13:02):
Somebody may not see pushed past them out of the
nurse's office.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
Wow.
Speaker 5 (13:06):
So the way I get involved is I show that
night happened to be prom So I show up as
it's a Saturday. There was nobody at the school. The
principal looks at me and goes, hey, did you hear
about the nine one one call? It the school? And
I'm like, no, why would there be a nine one
one call? This was nobody there. He's like, you need
to call dispatch. So I called this batch. Hey was
there nine one one call at my school? Dispatcher starts
(13:28):
laughing and says, hey, you need to talk to this officer.
Like why won't anybody give me an answer? So I
call this officer and I say hey. I actually sent
him a text. I said hey, did you end up
at my school today? And his response was, dude, your
school is blank haunted using the half word. And at
this point I'm looking at this again, remember hardcore skeptic
(13:50):
at this time looking at the phone going right. So
I call him. He proceeds to tell me what happened,
and I'm like, er, so I don't think much of it.
Go through the prom Monday morning shows up. My sergeant
looks at me and says, hey, you need to investigate
this nine one one call, and I'm like, why is it? Well,
(14:11):
it's misuse of nine one one. Part of them were
thinking like, is there somebody that has found a way
to compromise the nine on one system. We need to
look into it. So I do a full blown investigation.
I pulled the nine on one tape, I pulled the
security footage from the front desk of the school. I
start talking to people. I start I get a hold
of the phone, the people at the school district that
(14:32):
handle the phones. I run down every possible lead I can.
I checked, could it have come from a classroom routed
through the front desk? No, because in the nine one
one screen. It will literally tell you what classroom it
came from. This clearly said reception B phone, which was
the second phone the one in question. Plus it doesn't
(14:53):
the dispatcher also then says that also doesn't explain how
it was off the hook when the officer got there
and picked up and had a conversation with dispatch. So
we ran down every possible lead I checked. Could somebody
tap into the phone line old school like literally break
open the phone box and tap in. No, still doesn't
explain how the phone is off the hook. Right, run
(15:14):
down everything, I can't figure it out. So I get
the security footage. That phone is almost dead center of
the screen. Now it's detailed enough to see all around
it and see if there's somebody standing at it. It's
not detailed enough to see the phone itself because it's
kind of under this little ledge. It's about eBay, but
you can see if there's somebody on that phone, you
(15:35):
can see them.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
You would, yeah, you would see like the idea, would
you see them outline of them or would you would
you see them?
Speaker 5 (15:43):
Because it was right before noon, so it was light
in the room, not fully lit, but lit enough that
if somebody was standing there. You can see them. So
I take it back all the way to six in
the morning, even though the call came in just before noon,
and I watch. At about seven o'clock. One of the
security guards comes in through the back door, doesn't go
anywhere near the phone, grab some paper to make a
(16:04):
sign for restrooms because they have football going on, like
a little league football game out at the sports field.
So she leaves. So there's three sets of motion detecting
lights right there at that desk. There's one in front
of it, one directly over it, and one behind it.
When the security guard came in, the ones in front
of it clicked on. After twenty minutes, they click off.
(16:24):
I keep watching forward. At about twenty after ten, the
lights over the desk turn on. There's nothing there. I
can't if anybody was there, they would have turned on
the lights either in front of the desk or behind
the desk, but neither of those turned on, just the
ones over the desk. After twenty minutes, the lights click on.
(16:44):
At the time that that nine one one call comes in,
there's nobody at that phone. None of the lights click on.
There's nothing. Fourteen minutes after that, I watched the patrol
officers walk in on the bottom of the screen through
the front door. I see one walk right over to
the desk, pick up the phone. I see him have
the conversation, and then they hang up, and then they
(17:06):
proceed to search. When they walked into the room, you
saw the first set of lights click on. When he
got to the desk. You saw the ones over the
desk click on. When they start searching around, then the
ones behind the desk click on. So there is not
a doubt in my mind that there was nobody at
that phone when that phone call came in the office
is not in screen though, So you see them go
(17:28):
into a room at the bottom, and you see them
both run out like a fraction of a second later.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
Hum in the in the tape, do you see the
phone move at all. It's not detailed enough to see
this to see the Actually, oh, that's right, that's right. So,
because I was gonna say, you know, assuming that they
walked in and the phone was like off the hook,
that does that make sense?
Speaker 1 (17:53):
Would the phone have been off the hook?
Speaker 2 (17:55):
So fifteen seconds, Jesus, that's that out.
Speaker 5 (18:01):
I took the phone off the hook and said, okay,
maybe because again remember, hardcore skeptic, there is a logical
explanation to this. So one of the things was the
phone fell off the hook probably Friday when the secretary left,
and it's just been laying on the counter all weekend,
you know either. So I'm like, okay, let's take the
phone off the hook and let's see does it stay
(18:22):
as an open line. Doesn't really explain how nine one
one got called, but let's see if if it's still
it stays an active line. After fifteen seconds, it cuts
out there it is no longer an active line. I
tried pushing buttons, I tried doing all sorts of stuff.
The phone goes completely dead on that line after fifteen
seconds of being left off the.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
Lock of inactivity. Right, wow, So I mean the story?
Oh oh oh, we're not even done yet.
Speaker 5 (18:49):
Oh no, we're not. Yeah, trust me. Oh okay, hardcore skeptic.
So I am running down every possible lead. I cannot
even them up with any other leads we checked. Was
it a computer that somebody could have patched into the
line from a different location, Well, it doesn't explain how
the phone got off the hook and the open line
(19:09):
got there. And keep in mind, this is twenty seventeen.
So this is before AI or chant, GBT, any of
those things. None of that existed yet, right, I run
down every possible lead. So I take the audio recording,
I send it off to be analyzed because I'm like,
maybe there's something. Maybe it's like a completely fake voice
and it's not real at all, and it's all computer
(19:30):
generated somehow.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
I was gonna say, so, like, you know, because for instance,
I work for a security company and it seems someone
has hacked. But this is also twenty twenty five we're
talking about, so yeah, and it was, and it was
a it's our system is a VoIP, so like, someone
(19:53):
has the ability to call out as our company, but
they don't say anything, and the lines like dead and
we can't figure out who it is. We've been trying
to shut it down. Did you look into any possibilities
like that where someone could be jacking the phone number
itself to mask the call.
Speaker 5 (20:14):
Yeah, and on top of that that, we did look
into that. But on top of that, it still doesn't
explain how the phone is off the hook with an
open line to nine one one.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
Right, So this is oh, yeah.
Speaker 5 (20:24):
We checked everything. I was one hundred percent convinced I
am going to find the solution to this. I run
down everything. We finally get to the point where we
get the results back from the nine one one call
the guy who did the I don't know what kind
of technology he used to check it, but we were
basically checking to see is it a completely computer generated voice?
(20:46):
Is it a human voice recording of a human voice? What
could this possibly be? He tells me two things. He's like, First,
you need to know it's not a human voice. So
my instinct was, oh, it's a computer voice. He's like no,
He's like, I don't know what this is. More importantly,
you know, it's not saying I'm scared. And I was like, what,
because up until this point we thought it was it
(21:08):
sounds like a voice clear as day. Says what we
thought was I'm scared. Dispatcher says, what was that? And
then it responds with I'm scared. Dispatcher says, you're scared,
and then it says no, and then you hear the
phone drop on the counter. The guy tells me it's
not saying I'm scared. What it actually says is I scare.
(21:33):
And so when the dispatcher said, you're scared it, responded.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
With no, obviously not. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (21:42):
So I continue my investigation and I'm like, Okay, this
is really messed up again. Hardcore skeptic Dave is going
to find the answer. I don't know what it is,
but we're gonna find the answer. So I go to
the nurse's office because I realized, well, you know what,
this supposed thing that ryan into them must have been
in the nurse's office because that's where they encountered it.
(22:04):
So I walk into the nurse's office. Sure enough, the
nurse happens to be the wife of a sheriff's deputy
and I've known her for six years at this point.
So I walk in, very friendly, very outgoing personality. I'm
talking to her about, Hey, did you hear about this
phone call?
Speaker 2 (22:17):
No?
Speaker 5 (22:17):
I didn't hear about it. I kind of start telling
her a little bit about it, and she clams up.
She's like, I don't know anything about that, Like complete
change of personality. And you know, at this point, i'd
been a cop for sixteen years, and I'm like, I
can tell when somebody's hiding something. So I'm like, something's up.
So I kind of leave. I come back about it
(22:37):
two three hours later, and everything is fine. She's friendly,
happy until I bring up the phone message and the
phone call, and then she clams back up. So I'm like, okay,
now I know there's something. So I leave and my
mind is racing, like is it Maybe she's got kids,
maybe one of them screwing around and got in the office.
But how are they not on the film? How are
(22:59):
they not on the cameras going on? But I'm still
thinking there's an answer here, So I wait three days.
I go back to her office and she's again back
to her normal self, friendly, outgoing until I bring up
this phone call and she takes her pen and slams
her pen on the counter and says, fine, I'll tell you.
I'm like, tell me what. She then proceeds to tell
(23:22):
me that her entire life, she has been followed by
a ghost or some sort of apparition at her house
that will and she described this type of stuff, and
we have confirmed it with her husband and her son,
who are both Shaff's deputies. Now they have things have
like they hear footsteps upstairs where they know there's nobody there,
(23:42):
doors slamming, their dog will bark at nothing in the
corner she has seen things run past. Her husband has
seen things run past. Looked almost like a little girl
running past down the hallway. She tells me all this stuff,
and I'm looking at her and I'm like at this,
I'm like, I can't figure out what this is. Now,
(24:02):
I got somebody that I trust. It's telling me a
story that I'm finding unbelievable. But I keep getting back
to why can I not explain how this phone call it?
So she then proceeds to tell me that When I
ask her, why didn't you tell me this before, She's like,
because three weeks ago, everything at the house stopped. Everything
was peaceful. And I'm like, well, then, why did you
(24:25):
tell me now? She's because last night everything started at
the house again. I end up going back and checking
that nine to one one call that we got was
the third nine to one one call from the front
desk of that school, but it was the only one
that had a voice, and those nine to one one
calls started three weeks before, so everything lined up. So again,
(24:48):
ty I went from a hardcore skeptic to I don't
know if it was a ghost. I don't know what
the heck it was. Maybe it's just technology we don't
understand yet, but I've transitioned from being that hardcore skeptic
to Okay, I'm willing to be open to stuff a
little bit here.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (25:10):
So then when I ended up meeting I went to
a different school, and that was when I started meeting
up with people from Moufon and that's when they asked
us to design this class for the lesson plan and
stuff like that, for investigation and stuff like that. And
one of the things that I loved is the same
techniques that I used during that investigation to try and
(25:31):
figure out that ghost story or whatever it was, was
the same techniques that they can use during their investigation.
And I'm being reminded by the person sitting next to me,
I forgot probably the most important part of the story.
So about two weeks after I gather all this evidence
and I'm working this case, I get a phone call
(25:52):
and it's from a sergeant that's upstairs. And anybody who's
in law enforcement or even fire, any first responder knows
what the term is a call from upstairs means. So
when I meet with this sergeant, I walk into his office.
He has two computer screens set up. One of them
is the voice analysis of the voice. The other one
(26:14):
is the security footage from the school. He plays them
both looks at me and says, you believe me, you
expect me to believe this, And I look at him
and I'm like, I really don't care what you believe.
This is what I found. This is my investigation. This
is what I found. He proceeded to accuse me of
(26:34):
being a liar, of trying to pull something over on him,
making up the whole thing, and basically ended it with
telling me that you will not talk about this and
if you do, there will be repercussions. And so I
ended up walking out of there, And first of all,
let me tell you I was angry. I'm going to
(26:55):
clean my language up for you. I was angry because
I walked out of the room and this guy was
a sergeant in name only, guy never did anything his
entire career. I got promoted, I had at this point,
I had the Life Saving Award, Meritorious Conduct, Distinguished Service,
Distinguished Team Citation three times, and like I had more
(27:15):
ribbons on my class A uniform than I knew what
to do with. And this guy's accusing me of being
a liar, accusing me of making this up. And the
problem was is he had all the leverage, and I
knew it the moment I walked out of his office.
If I say anything, my career is probably over. And
so when mary Ann called me all those years later
(27:36):
and says, why don't police officers talk about it? I
told her that whole story, and I said, the reason
they don't talk about it is because we can't. If
we do, it's a threat to our career.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
And it's not even and not I'm sorry to interject here,
but coming from a family that that is you know,
military law enforcement. And I'm sure you guys can back
us up, you know, brother in arms. Right, So if
this comes into the precinct right with you, it comes
(28:11):
much much like this ghost with the nurse. It seems
to hitchhike itself onto everybody, right, And that means the precinct,
your whole squadron is now quote unquote the laughing stalker.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
At least that's what they're afraid of.
Speaker 5 (28:32):
Yes, And that's one of the things because when Alejandro
Rojas was talking to Marianne about it, when we were
talking about why it happened, he had never heard anything
like that. We broke down all of the different stigmas
that officers would face at that moment where they have
to decide do I talk about what I experienced or
do I not? And Alejandro was like, you guys need
(28:52):
to kind of talk about this because right now everybody
thinks that police and law enforcement and first responders are
all part of some global coo to hide the truth.
And I'm telling them that has nothing to do with it.
I'm being held like my career is being held over
my head, saying if you keep talking, you're gonna better
get used to asking people if they want fries with that.
(29:13):
Because you're not getting a job with another police agency.
You're done. And because and it all stems from as
an officer, you touched on it at the beginning. We
have two things going for us on any case, the
evidence that we collect at that case and our credibility
on we being the ones that collected it and we
got the statements and we gathered all the stuff. Those
(29:34):
are the two things. They were basically saying that my
credibility was going to be shocked because they're going to
basically say that I made this all up. Therefore, my
credibility is shocked and my effective this is an officer.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
Is done absolutely And that's.
Speaker 5 (29:49):
That's ultimately why we created UAPPD, because we started by
just wanting to tell people, hey, just say you know,
this isn't like police aren't hiding the truth about a
or bigfoot or ghosts or something like that. We're kind
of in this catch twenty two where we can't talk
about it, but it's not because we don't want to
(30:09):
talk about it. And so I sat there for six
years with this story that I was not able to
talk to about anyone because I said, still had six
years left in my career. So I just buried it
and kept it hidden every time I got called upstairs
wondering is this the day did somebody say something? Did
it end up causing problems until the day to paper,
(30:34):
until the day that I retired, And then it became
we can't stop me now, And so we created UAPPD
for basically two reasons. Really. The first one is to
provide a safe environment for first responders to talk about
the stuff that they've seen. We're not going to judge anybody.
We don't judge, we don't criticize, we don't make fun of,
(30:55):
we don't do anything. A lot of times we won't
even do an investigation if they don't want us to
do an investor. We're just a sounding board more often
than anything else, right, just to give them that safe
environment where we can where they can talk, and then
we ask them, can we take your stories because we
do stage presentations, we did podcasts like yours, things like
that where we're trying to get word of our organization
(31:17):
out there to get more stories, and it's been relatively
successful since we've got stories from all over. When I
say the world, I'm not kidding. We got a story
about last month of a UFO sighting in Australia that
a police constable called us and did a zoom interview
and gave us a video and stuff like that from Australia.
So we've got we know from a fact that we've
(31:38):
got comments from South Africa, Ireland, Scotland, Mexico, Canada, New Zealand,
so we know we're getting out there and we're getting
stories from places outside of the country.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
Again kind of going back to this whole notion that again,
you know, not only is this not just something that's
happened in the United States, to the officers in military here.
But again, you know, I think a big misconception is
that everything happens in the United.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
States, when that's very far from the truth. This is
a global.
Speaker 2 (32:15):
This is a global issue, and I again I say
issue with quotations because we don't really know what like
the intent is.
Speaker 5 (32:25):
Yeah, and that's why, like, like we're we're known for
not pushing our own beliefs on people. We don't want to.
We don't want I don't ever want an officer to
come in here and listen, have him listen to me
telling him what I believe. Right, it doesn't matter what
I believe. It matters what they believe in what they saw,
And so we give them an opportunity to talk, We
(32:47):
give them an opportunity to get it off their chest
in a safe environment. We like to use it to
kind of encourage other officers because ultimately, like my goal, ultimately,
other than to help these first responders and ride that
safe environment is I would love to be able to
push that needle a little bit because again, twenty seventeen,
I didn't believe in any of this stuff. And now
(33:09):
I've had a number of incidents during some of our investigations,
some of our contacts, seeing some videos and stuff like that,
and I'm willing to start taking things a little bit
on faith. I want proof like everybody else, but I'm
also willing to go into it with a little bit
of an open mind. Right. And one of the things
that we noticed when we speak to officers who are
(33:33):
officers that are stationed on a reservation versus officers that
are not, the guys on the revs don't seem to
have the same stigmas. And it all comes down to
one thing. Their culture has a much more open belief
on these topics than people not on the reservation. So
(33:54):
when I'm told one of the officers from the Healer
River Reservation out here, when he was telling a story,
I told him about what happened to me getting called
up stairs, and he couldn't believe it because he did
his entire career there, and he's like, we would never
that would never happen to us, Like we would get
called up and they'd be like, hey, what do you
got and we tell him. Then they'd be like, oh,
good job, let's get this evidence logged in and everything
(34:16):
like that.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
But right, it's so much more, it's so much more accepted,
Like I just had in part because of Marianne's uh,
thank you for this. By the way, I'd been wanting
to chat with John Dover of the Navajo Nation for
for quite a while, and by the time this episode
(34:39):
comes out, I think it'll be three episodes back I
had him on and again. Yeah, the difference between you know,
what you guys were up against is a little different
than what he was up against because he was charged with,
you know, being a police officer, but also being a
police officer that you know, uh, some days you're gonna
have to investigate the the unknown, but the unknown is
(35:01):
part of their culture.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
So it's just the other day at the office.
Speaker 5 (35:05):
And John is real good friends with us, both John
and stan Stan Milford. Yep, we actually talk with them
a lot. They actually help us out with a lot
of stuff that happens on the res just helping us
with information, helping us with like contacts, stuff like that.
So it's great having them as a sounding board or
(35:26):
even just a resource. Yeah, we've had a couple of
things happened that we've been like, like we've been sitting
in Marianne's living room with John going, hey man, this
is what we got and he's been like, I can
tell you exactly what that is, and then we break
it all down and we talk about it and it's
an amazing resource. Like it's amazing how many interesting people
(35:47):
we have come to meet since we've started this, And
like I said, I'm proud of this. Heck of the
fact that since we've started this about two years ago,
we have over eighty stories from first responders all over
the world who had things happen, who trusted us enough
to come and talk to us, knowing that we're not
gonna judge, we're not gonna make fun of, we're not
going to criticize, and we will only use stories when
(36:09):
that officer says, yes, I'm okay with you using it.
We've had officers all across the board. Some have been like,
I just need to tell you this, but I can't
get it out. I can't have my name out there,
I can't let anyone know, and we're like, fine, tell
us that we're gonna get your help, we're gonna listen
to the story, give you that place to vent, and
then it just goes in a box and we never
use it. We've had other guys that have been like, yeah,
(36:32):
you can use my face, you can. You need me
to come on and talk, I'll talk. And we've had
everything in between. We've been some officers like there's one
that I know of that recently got promoted to sergeant.
He gave us a story and he's like, I cannot
have my face out there. I just got promoted. So
he's like, I have no problem with you using the story,
but you can't use my name. So we take it
even further. We don't use his name, and we don't
(36:52):
use the agency that he is with. We just refer
to it as an agency in Arizona, right, because, again,
our credibility, just like their credibility, is paramount. We want
we want these first responders to trust us. We want
people to trust us because we're talking about the truth,
and that's kind kind of one of the things we
touch on. I'm sorry I'm talking so much, but I'm
(37:15):
really kind of passionate about this. Is the most frustrating
thing about this entire scenario is we're talking about people
first or firefighters, police officers, corrections, EMTs, park rangers all
across the board, who are trusted because of, like you said,
their credibility, their ability to maintain their emotions in high
(37:37):
stressful situations. They're seeing stuff, they're telling the truth, and
they're getting in trouble for it. And that's the part
that is the most frustrating because it's we call it
in one of our sides, we call it the cost
of the cost of being truthful?
Speaker 1 (37:52):
Absolutely absolutely, So is it?
Speaker 5 (37:56):
What?
Speaker 2 (37:56):
What are Because now you said you're talking about the
cases that you've collected from other officers, Uh, is there
one that sticks out that you could talk about now?
Speaker 1 (38:08):
And and kind of because I want to I want
to hear how how you guys.
Speaker 2 (38:12):
I want to maybe go through how you guys take
a case from an officer and then what do you
do with it? If you can, if you can talk
about it, if it's you.
Speaker 5 (38:24):
Can, we can talk. We got so many stories.
Speaker 4 (38:30):
We we have one the okay, I'm going to tell
you about the Skinwalker case. Well you have one, and
then I'm going to have him do about five different
stories and then an investigation that we did and come
to find out it was on a reservation.
Speaker 3 (38:47):
Let me talk a little bit about the skin Walker case.
Speaker 4 (38:51):
We had an investigator with our agencies, Gilbert pad and
this guy is the probably one of the most serious
guys that I've ever He doesn't joke around.
Speaker 3 (39:03):
He takes everything very very serious.
Speaker 4 (39:07):
So he stopped for me in the hallway one day
and he says, Hey, I know that you've been with
Muffon and can I run something by you?
Speaker 3 (39:14):
And I said sure. He says, I was.
Speaker 4 (39:16):
Driving up State Highway eighty nine between Flagstaff and Page.
Now this roadway, for the folks that don't know Arizona.
Flagstaff is northern Arizona, and State Route eighty nine goes
further north to Page, Arizona, which is on the Utah border.
(39:37):
Now this roadway is on the Navajo reservation. So he says,
it's about ten o'clock at night. He's driving down State
eighty nine, State Route eighty nine.
Speaker 3 (39:48):
It's a two lane road. Yellow. It's a yellow line
right smack dab in the middle. There is picture marts
the the surface of Mars.
Speaker 4 (40:01):
This is the Yeah, it looks like it is red.
It has it has rocks everywhere. There are no trees,
there are no houses, there is nothing, and it is black.
There's not even a street light. So he's cruising down
the road, probably going about eighty eighty five miles an hour.
Speaker 3 (40:19):
There's nobody out there.
Speaker 2 (40:21):
Is there like, is there like mountains in the back
or is it eight planes or.
Speaker 3 (40:26):
I would say five to ten miles.
Speaker 4 (40:28):
Okay, So where he is at it is just small
rock like you would just picture the the surface of
Mars that kind of red and boulders and rock. But
there's no there's mountains way over on the sides where
the familion cliffs are, and up toward what would that
(40:50):
be the road that goes up the page. That's all
mountainous up there. But there are no trees, there are
no houses, there's no lights. It is pitch black. So
as he scruised him by all of a sudden, he
notices out of his provisional vision side vision that way,
thank you, on his right hand side, that there is
(41:14):
something that is right there by the road, pretty big,
and it starts to cross the road in front of them,
so it's going from the right to the left, right
in front of him.
Speaker 3 (41:24):
Well, he puts on the.
Speaker 4 (41:25):
Brakes really really fast, and he slows all the way down,
and this thing, this creature is on all fours now,
even on all fours, he said, the back of it
was probably at least four feet tall, and this thing
is going across the roadway very slowly, right in front
of him, and all it's stewing is it's looking right
(41:48):
at his headlights as it's walking across. Now, if there
was a deer, a coyote, whatever, they would see the
headlights and.
Speaker 3 (41:56):
They take off. This thing didn't.
Speaker 4 (41:59):
It just took its to I'm walking from the right
hand side of the car all the way to the left,
got off to the shoulder and just went and did
whatever it did. So it freaked him out. He's like,
what in the world was that? So he started he
started to go again, but this time he started going
slow because he wasn't sure kind of that area.
Speaker 3 (42:20):
Yep, that's the up there at the Grand Canyon. But
he's starting to slow.
Speaker 5 (42:25):
He's cruising up.
Speaker 4 (42:26):
About two miles later, Rare, you go right there, that's
exactly the area. Right there is the turnoff to Tuba City,
which is also on an alcohol reservation. Just he's past
that exit, he notices there's something now sitting in the
middle of the road. The double yellow there is something
(42:49):
sitting in the middle, So he again slows way down.
Speaker 3 (42:52):
He's like, what in the world is this thing?
Speaker 4 (42:54):
As he's going past it this thing is now on
its hind legs and it's just sitting there staring at
the car. And as the car went by, it sat
there and it just watched. His head moved with the car,
and as the car approached, the head stayed right with
the car. And as the car went by, the head
(43:16):
of this creature just followed the.
Speaker 3 (43:19):
Car as it went through it went by.
Speaker 4 (43:21):
Now, I asked the investigator, we can use Noah is
his first name, We can use Noah. But he said,
this thing, the head of it, when it was just
on a time leg sitting there, was over five feet
tall because it was over his car.
Speaker 1 (43:40):
So it's on its hind legs. It's fine.
Speaker 4 (43:43):
It's touched down like it's just sitting on like a
dog or whatever.
Speaker 1 (43:47):
It behind legs.
Speaker 3 (43:48):
This thing was over the head was over five feet tall.
Speaker 4 (43:51):
It was above his car, sedan car, and all it
did was just it just kind of watched, never moved,
never did anything. Well, Noah goes being an investigator, Hey,
what was that? He wanted to turn around and go
back and check it.
Speaker 6 (44:09):
Out, because I mean, oh my god, Well, luckily this area,
both shoulders on the roads are very very soft, and
he knew ten o'clock at night.
Speaker 4 (44:20):
He goes off the shoulder. He gets stuck. He'll never
get out until he's he's already freaking out. He goes,
I'm getting to where there's light and there's people. So
he kept going. He gets up the page, finds a
grocery store of a convenience store.
Speaker 5 (44:37):
Goes in.
Speaker 4 (44:40):
The clerk in this convenience store, it's in a Navajo
woman and she's being just so cheery with everybody.
Speaker 3 (44:45):
You know, Hi, how are you? What's going on? And
you could just tell she's very, very, very bubbly and outgoing.
Speaker 4 (44:54):
So Noah grabs some drinks and some snacks, puts them
out on the front on the counter, and.
Speaker 3 (44:59):
She goes, hey, how are you? Where you going? Where
are you coming from? And he's talking and he goes,
can I ask.
Speaker 1 (45:05):
You a question?
Speaker 4 (45:06):
She goes sure. He goes, do you have any wolves
or coyotes out here? And she goes, well, there might
be a coyote everywhere once, you know, maybe sporadically in some.
Speaker 3 (45:18):
Areas, but there won't be any wolves. We don't have
the terrain for wolves.
Speaker 1 (45:22):
And she goes, well.
Speaker 4 (45:24):
He proceeds tell her what he saw as he was
driving down the road and coming up to page, her
demeanor went from very bubbly, very outgoing, to very serious.
Speaker 3 (45:36):
It just turned just like that. She got very serious.
Speaker 4 (45:39):
She takes her his snacks, put him in a bag,
shoves the bag into him, and says, you need.
Speaker 3 (45:45):
To leave now.
Speaker 1 (45:45):
She knows what she knows what it is.
Speaker 3 (45:48):
So he's freaking out.
Speaker 4 (45:50):
So he gets up, of course, gets the page, goes
and does whatever he's going to do.
Speaker 3 (45:53):
Well, you know, he goes, I have no idea what
that was all about. He goes.
Speaker 4 (45:57):
I know that you probably would know something. So here's
my story. Here's what's going on now. I asked him,
because he didn't of course, didn't have any.
Speaker 3 (46:07):
Pictures or anything.
Speaker 4 (46:07):
I says, would you be willing to meet with one
of my sketch artists and take, you know, and draw
a picture of what you saw?
Speaker 3 (46:17):
Especially when this thing was sitting in the middle of
the road. So I go sure. So I had him. Now,
for folks that don't know a sketch.
Speaker 4 (46:25):
Artist, we use him in police departments like they're going
to sketch bad guy. They'll give him the features, eyes, nose, height,
all this stuff, and the sketch chartist will actually draw.
Speaker 2 (46:38):
Yeah, they'll take they'll take the witnesses testimony and create
a kind of bring it to life if you will,
like a like a storyboard exactly.
Speaker 3 (46:47):
So I didn't.
Speaker 4 (46:48):
Unfortunately, I don't have that picture with me right now,
but sketch artist, I do have it.
Speaker 3 (46:54):
I'd have to find it for you.
Speaker 1 (46:56):
But if you could.
Speaker 3 (46:58):
By the time Staires I'll get to that picture.
Speaker 1 (47:00):
Doesn't say you could, I'll mark the spot.
Speaker 5 (47:03):
So we got it.
Speaker 4 (47:04):
So anyway, so he did that. I see the picture now.
It looks cartoonish, it really does.
Speaker 5 (47:11):
It is.
Speaker 4 (47:14):
It is long, it has a wolf type face, it
is elongated in its jaw, it had the big teeth
and the eyes were just wild, and it's sitting on
it on its hind legs.
Speaker 3 (47:27):
So this is what he he this is what he saw.
Speaker 4 (47:30):
And again, you know, I wasn't gonna laugh at him,
because this is one guy that does not joke around.
Speaker 5 (47:38):
Now.
Speaker 4 (47:38):
I did talk to John Dover stan Mill for Junior,
of course, like we were just talking about the Novajo
rangers and I told him this story and I told
him how what how the Navajo woman clerk reacted to
the story, And he goes, yeah, Noah saw a skin
walker and he you know, when he told the story
(48:00):
to the clerk, she was afraid that that attachment of
this skin walker, whatever it is, on Noah, would attach
to her and she didn't want anything to do with it.
That's why she got serious. She handed him his groceries
and told him to get out of the store. And
(48:21):
so that was really an interesting one. That's one of
our first skinwalker cases that we got from an officer.
Speaker 1 (48:30):
To be continued
Welcome back to Total Disclosure. Everyone.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
My name's Ty and I am the host of the show.
Total Disclosure is where we dig deep into the unknown,
the unexplained, and the unbelievable and bring truth to focus. Today,
I'm super happy to be joined by two extraordinary guests
who are doing something few I've dared to do. They're
(01:01):
bridging the gap between law enforcement and the unexplained. Together,
they've got nearly six decades of experience in policing. Mary
and Rob, who I've met at Contact in the Desert,
is a retired Arizona officer with thirty four years of
service from arson and narcotics investigations to crime prevention and
forensic construction. She has spent the last decade applying that
(01:25):
same discipline to the study of UFOs, the paranormal and beyond.
Dave Rich, also a retired officer with the Arizona PD,
twenty five years in the field, working everything from homicide
and ganging investigations to school resource work. He brings some
of the meticulous eye for detail to this anomalous world
(01:47):
of encounters.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
The two co founded what is known as.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
UAPPD, an organization creating a safe zone for officers and
first responders to share their UFO paranormal encrypted encounters without
stigma or the fear of retribution. When it comes to
their career. Their emission is to bring professionalism, evidence based methods,
(02:13):
and respect to investigations of the unknown. Again, we're dealing
with the most complex phenomena in ever, so again we
have to be humble, we have to be open to
things that we can't really quite explain. In this conversation,
we'll unpack how UAPPD is changing the culture around the
(02:35):
unexplained phenomena and why it's time for law enforcement to
play a leading role in uncovering the truth. So with that,
before we get into it, make sure to share and subscribe,
and if you're listening to one of the great podcast platforms,
please leave a rating and review. Takes twenty seconds and
it really helps to show get out to a broader audience.
(02:56):
We can't do this without you, and I truly, from
the bottom of my heart, thank you. So let's get
into it. Here are Mary Anne and Dave the U
a p p D. And I didn't have the thank
you to the U A p p D. H.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Well, Hello, I'm.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
Gonna have to edit that little uh that little intro
there right at the end. But other than that, I'm
super happy to have you here.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Guys.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
Well, thank you, Thanks, we'd love to be here. We
appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Yeah, Mary, Maryanne. I met you at Contact in the Desert,
and I remember, I remember, I think I had left
my phone. This might have been when we first had met,
but I introduced.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
Chris Bledsoe.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
On his panel and then I left my phone on
stage and then I jumped off stage and then ran
out the door because I had a bunch of interviews
I was conducting throughout those you know, four days, and uh,
I think that's when I met you. And I was
instantly like, I got to have these people are on
what they're doing is so cool. You're friends with Mark D'Antonio,
(04:12):
which is I mean, he's one of my favorite people
on the planet. So it seemed like it was inevitable.
Speaker 4 (04:21):
Oh well, that was pretty funny, though I remembered you
were in an absolute panic because you didn't have your
phone and your whole life is on the phone.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
Oh it was, It was.
Speaker 4 (04:31):
It was so cute and you were just so awesome
and it was great to be able to finally meet
you and Mark's talked so much highly about me, talk
so much about you and so highly. I was real
excited to get to meet you and talk to you.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
For a little bit.
Speaker 4 (04:50):
You were running around like a chicken with the head
cut off, so and stuff. So I was so happy
to at least spend a few minutes with you talking
about just everything that's going on.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
Yeah, and yeah, I think one of the coolest parts
about about conferences, conferences like that is that it I mean, yeah,
you can go, you can go for the you know,
the lectures, and you can go for the speakers if
you want to hear certain somebody. But I find that
(05:24):
what they're really really good for is that networking of
like minded individuals. So it was really nice and and
I'm really excited to get into it with uh Dave
as well. So, I mean, without further further delay, well
let's jump right in.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
Both of you spent decades.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
In law enforcement, and you had careers built on truth,
evidence and accountability.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
We'll start.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
You know, however, you guys want to start, you know,
bounce off of each other, that's quite all right. It's
it's easier said than done. We'll try not to tako
over each other. But what moment or experience made you
step across that line into the unknown and into the
world of UFOs and the unexplained.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
Well, let me go ahead and start off again. You've
introduced me, and I thank you for that.
Speaker 4 (06:21):
Mary Anne Rob thirty four years as a police officer
here in Arizona. The last twenty six years was with
the Gilbert Police Department, where I met Dave.
Speaker 3 (06:32):
We worked many years together, partnering up.
Speaker 4 (06:37):
But as an officer, I've worked as you said, I
was a narcotics officer, I was a crime prevention, an
arson detective, and property crimes and of course, like we
all start out as a police officer, patrol.
Speaker 5 (06:52):
Now, patrol was.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
Always my favorite.
Speaker 4 (06:54):
I just love to be out there in my patrol
car by myself, just you know, cruising around taking calls.
That was always my favorite. But also I had hobbies.
Of course, I love to fish, love to hunt, especially
here in Arizona. But one of the organizations that Dave
and I were both involved in for probably close to
ten years was an organization called moufon, which is the
(07:18):
Mutual UFO Network.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
And excuse me, we were out here in.
Speaker 4 (07:23):
The Phoenix area and we also became field investigators, and
that was kind of an interesting.
Speaker 3 (07:32):
Position through Moufon, you know, being cops ourselves.
Speaker 4 (07:36):
It was kind of nice doing these investigations because we
knew how to interview.
Speaker 3 (07:41):
Now we know.
Speaker 4 (07:41):
How to interrogate, but we can't interrogate these folks, but
we know body language, we know what to look for.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
And one of the things we did for.
Speaker 4 (07:51):
Moufon is when we had the boot camp for about
six years, Phoenix did a boot camp, a Fueld Investigator
boot camp, and our training, what we taught everybody was
the advanced interview techniques. So that's what you know, that's
what we did with these new guys that wanted to
(08:14):
become field investigators or people that were already field investigators
that wanted to just brush up on their techniques. So
we're doing that. And I was at a meeting one
of the move On meetings in Phoenix, oh gosh, probably
mid twenty twenty two, so about three years ago or so,
and the topic was disclosure and that military started to
(08:41):
come forward and talking which the disclosure. They're trying to,
you know, talk to about my own personal They'll never
be disclosure. That's that's just me. So after the meeting
was over, I'm thinking, I'm talking to a good friend
of mine, Olejandro Rojas, and we're like.
Speaker 5 (08:56):
Wait a minute. You got the military talking, You've.
Speaker 3 (08:59):
Got airline pilots.
Speaker 4 (09:01):
They're starting to talk, and then disclosure disclosure thing comes out,
and I'm thinking, Wow, we're police officers, we're first responders.
We're part of that whole grouping of cops, firefighters.
Speaker 3 (09:15):
You know, nursing em tis all that. Why aren't we talking.
Speaker 4 (09:20):
There's over eight hundred thousand law enforcement officers just in
this country alone, and.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Those are all trained observer, at least to a degree,
all trained professional observers. That in my opinion, again, I'm
not saying like a cop or someone in the military,
you know, their sighting is more credible than a citizen's,
but you're also trained to see things that others just
(09:51):
will miss.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
Exactly exactly. That's how I've all seen.
Speaker 4 (09:56):
You know, there's cops, like I said, there's eight hundred thousand,
and they're working day, they're working night.
Speaker 3 (10:01):
They're out there like I always love to be on patrol.
Speaker 4 (10:03):
I'm out there under the big open sky and there
are cops there. You know they're seeing things. But again,
why aren't they talking? So that evening I gave Dave
a call and I told him about the meeting, and
I told him about what Alejandro and I spoke about.
And I says, dude, why aren't they talking? Why aren't
(10:25):
cops talking about this stuff? And all you've had to
say was I'll tell you exactly why they're not talking.
And then he proceeded to tell me why. And I'm
going to let him take over from here.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
Oh what a what A what a swing? I love it.
Speaker 5 (10:44):
So just to go a little bit back to my
history and how I got involved twenty five years as
a police officer. I started in patrol like everybody else,
and then I went to gangs. I worked a gang
unit for a while, and then I went to homicide
and sex crime, so I worked homicide, sex crimes, child crimes.
Then I ended up over in our gang unit but
(11:05):
specializing in narcotics, got involved in a DEA task force,
and then I ended up back as an SRO to
finish off my career just kind of working with alien
life forms, which were high school students. But when up
until it's ironic because up until twenty seventeen, I would
(11:28):
be considered what was a hardcore skeptic. I did not
believe ghosts exist. I didn't believe UFOs exist. I didn't
believe Bigfoot existed. I thought it was all just misidentifications. Something,
you know, somebody saw something that they shouldn't, or it
was military craft or something like that. But then in
twenty seventeen, I had an experience while I was working,
and this is the story that I went to tell
(11:50):
Marianne about. Was when I was working as a school
resource officer at one of the schools, we received a
nine to one one call from the front desk of
the school. Call sounded like a woman that said I'm scared.
Dispatcher says you're scared. It says no, and then you
hear the phone drop on the countertop. So they dispatch
(12:10):
two officers to it. They go to it, make entry
with a knoxbox key. They don't find anybody inside there.
They find the phone laying on the counter. They pick
it up and talk to the dispatcher was still online
trying to get the person to pick up the phone.
They do a search. When they go walking into the
nurses office, something that neither of them could see sclved
past them and out They run out of the nurse's office.
(12:32):
They don't see anything there but something physically.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
So yeah, So you're saying like when you got there,
when when you guys got there the phone was was
there and it would it was still patched through to dispatch.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
It had never hung up.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
And then something that you guys can't see walks and
pushes past you.
Speaker 5 (12:58):
Well, I wasn't there.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
It was two patrol Oh that's what I meant. I'm sorry.
I'm sorry.
Speaker 5 (13:02):
Somebody may not see pushed past them out of the
nurse's office.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
Wow.
Speaker 5 (13:06):
So the way I get involved is I show that
night happened to be prom So I show up as
it's a Saturday. There was nobody at the school. The
principal looks at me and goes, hey, did you hear
about the nine one one call? It the school? And
I'm like, no, why would there be a nine one
one call? This was nobody there. He's like, you need
to call dispatch. So I called this batch. Hey was
there nine one one call at my school? Dispatcher starts
(13:28):
laughing and says, hey, you need to talk to this officer.
Like why won't anybody give me an answer? So I
call this officer and I say hey. I actually sent
him a text. I said hey, did you end up
at my school today? And his response was, dude, your
school is blank haunted using the half word. And at
this point I'm looking at this again, remember hardcore skeptic
(13:50):
at this time looking at the phone going right. So
I call him. He proceeds to tell me what happened,
and I'm like, er, so I don't think much of it.
Go through the prom Monday morning shows up. My sergeant
looks at me and says, hey, you need to investigate
this nine one one call, and I'm like, why is it? Well,
(14:11):
it's misuse of nine one one. Part of them were
thinking like, is there somebody that has found a way
to compromise the nine on one system. We need to
look into it. So I do a full blown investigation.
I pulled the nine on one tape, I pulled the
security footage from the front desk of the school. I
start talking to people. I start I get a hold
of the phone, the people at the school district that
(14:32):
handle the phones. I run down every possible lead I can.
I checked, could it have come from a classroom routed
through the front desk? No, because in the nine one
one screen. It will literally tell you what classroom it
came from. This clearly said reception B phone, which was
the second phone the one in question. Plus it doesn't
(14:53):
the dispatcher also then says that also doesn't explain how
it was off the hook when the officer got there
and picked up and had a conversation with dispatch. So
we ran down every possible lead I checked. Could somebody
tap into the phone line old school like literally break
open the phone box and tap in. No, still doesn't
explain how the phone is off the hook. Right, run
(15:14):
down everything, I can't figure it out. So I get
the security footage. That phone is almost dead center of
the screen. Now it's detailed enough to see all around
it and see if there's somebody standing at it. It's
not detailed enough to see the phone itself because it's
kind of under this little ledge. It's about eBay, but
you can see if there's somebody on that phone, you
(15:35):
can see them.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
You would, yeah, you would see like the idea, would
you see them outline of them or would you would
you see them?
Speaker 5 (15:43):
Because it was right before noon, so it was light
in the room, not fully lit, but lit enough that
if somebody was standing there. You can see them. So
I take it back all the way to six in
the morning, even though the call came in just before noon,
and I watch. At about seven o'clock. One of the
security guards comes in through the back door, doesn't go
anywhere near the phone, grab some paper to make a
(16:04):
sign for restrooms because they have football going on, like
a little league football game out at the sports field.
So she leaves. So there's three sets of motion detecting
lights right there at that desk. There's one in front
of it, one directly over it, and one behind it.
When the security guard came in, the ones in front
of it clicked on. After twenty minutes, they click off.
(16:24):
I keep watching forward. At about twenty after ten, the
lights over the desk turn on. There's nothing there. I
can't if anybody was there, they would have turned on
the lights either in front of the desk or behind
the desk, but neither of those turned on, just the
ones over the desk. After twenty minutes, the lights click on.
(16:44):
At the time that that nine one one call comes in,
there's nobody at that phone. None of the lights click on.
There's nothing. Fourteen minutes after that, I watched the patrol
officers walk in on the bottom of the screen through
the front door. I see one walk right over to
the desk, pick up the phone. I see him have
the conversation, and then they hang up, and then they
(17:06):
proceed to search. When they walked into the room, you
saw the first set of lights click on. When he
got to the desk. You saw the ones over the
desk click on. When they start searching around, then the
ones behind the desk click on. So there is not
a doubt in my mind that there was nobody at
that phone when that phone call came in the office
is not in screen though, So you see them go
(17:28):
into a room at the bottom, and you see them
both run out like a fraction of a second later.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
Hum in the in the tape, do you see the
phone move at all. It's not detailed enough to see
this to see the Actually, oh, that's right, that's right. So,
because I was gonna say, you know, assuming that they
walked in and the phone was like off the hook,
that does that make sense?
Speaker 1 (17:53):
Would the phone have been off the hook?
Speaker 2 (17:55):
So fifteen seconds, Jesus, that's that out.
Speaker 5 (18:01):
I took the phone off the hook and said, okay,
maybe because again remember, hardcore skeptic, there is a logical
explanation to this. So one of the things was the
phone fell off the hook probably Friday when the secretary left,
and it's just been laying on the counter all weekend,
you know either. So I'm like, okay, let's take the
phone off the hook and let's see does it stay
(18:22):
as an open line. Doesn't really explain how nine one
one got called, but let's see if if it's still
it stays an active line. After fifteen seconds, it cuts
out there it is no longer an active line. I
tried pushing buttons, I tried doing all sorts of stuff.
The phone goes completely dead on that line after fifteen
seconds of being left off the.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
Lock of inactivity. Right, wow, So I mean the story?
Oh oh oh, we're not even done yet.
Speaker 5 (18:49):
Oh no, we're not. Yeah, trust me. Oh okay, hardcore skeptic.
So I am running down every possible lead. I cannot
even them up with any other leads we checked. Was
it a computer that somebody could have patched into the
line from a different location, Well, it doesn't explain how
the phone got off the hook and the open line
(19:09):
got there. And keep in mind, this is twenty seventeen.
So this is before AI or chant, GBT, any of
those things. None of that existed yet, right, I run
down every possible lead. So I take the audio recording,
I send it off to be analyzed because I'm like,
maybe there's something. Maybe it's like a completely fake voice
and it's not real at all, and it's all computer
(19:30):
generated somehow.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
I was gonna say, so, like, you know, because for instance,
I work for a security company and it seems someone
has hacked. But this is also twenty twenty five we're
talking about, so yeah, and it was, and it was
a it's our system is a VoIP, so like, someone
(19:53):
has the ability to call out as our company, but
they don't say anything, and the lines like dead and
we can't figure out who it is. We've been trying
to shut it down. Did you look into any possibilities
like that where someone could be jacking the phone number
itself to mask the call.
Speaker 5 (20:14):
Yeah, and on top of that that, we did look
into that. But on top of that, it still doesn't
explain how the phone is off the hook with an
open line to nine one one.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
Right, So this is oh, yeah.
Speaker 5 (20:24):
We checked everything. I was one hundred percent convinced I
am going to find the solution to this. I run
down everything. We finally get to the point where we
get the results back from the nine one one call
the guy who did the I don't know what kind
of technology he used to check it, but we were
basically checking to see is it a completely computer generated voice?
(20:46):
Is it a human voice recording of a human voice? What
could this possibly be? He tells me two things. He's like, First,
you need to know it's not a human voice. So
my instinct was, oh, it's a computer voice. He's like no,
He's like, I don't know what this is. More importantly,
you know, it's not saying I'm scared. And I was like, what,
because up until this point we thought it was it
(21:08):
sounds like a voice clear as day. Says what we
thought was I'm scared. Dispatcher says, what was that? And
then it responds with I'm scared. Dispatcher says, you're scared,
and then it says no, and then you hear the
phone drop on the counter. The guy tells me it's
not saying I'm scared. What it actually says is I scare.
(21:33):
And so when the dispatcher said, you're scared it, responded.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
With no, obviously not. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (21:42):
So I continue my investigation and I'm like, Okay, this
is really messed up again. Hardcore skeptic Dave is going
to find the answer. I don't know what it is,
but we're gonna find the answer. So I go to
the nurse's office because I realized, well, you know what,
this supposed thing that ryan into them must have been
in the nurse's office because that's where they encountered it.
(22:04):
So I walk into the nurse's office. Sure enough, the
nurse happens to be the wife of a sheriff's deputy
and I've known her for six years at this point.
So I walk in, very friendly, very outgoing personality. I'm
talking to her about, Hey, did you hear about this
phone call?
Speaker 2 (22:17):
No?
Speaker 5 (22:17):
I didn't hear about it. I kind of start telling
her a little bit about it, and she clams up.
She's like, I don't know anything about that, Like complete
change of personality. And you know, at this point, i'd
been a cop for sixteen years, and I'm like, I
can tell when somebody's hiding something. So I'm like, something's up.
So I kind of leave. I come back about it
(22:37):
two three hours later, and everything is fine. She's friendly,
happy until I bring up the phone message and the
phone call, and then she clams back up. So I'm like, okay,
now I know there's something. So I leave and my
mind is racing, like is it Maybe she's got kids,
maybe one of them screwing around and got in the office.
But how are they not on the film? How are
(22:59):
they not on the cameras going on? But I'm still
thinking there's an answer here, So I wait three days.
I go back to her office and she's again back
to her normal self, friendly, outgoing until I bring up
this phone call and she takes her pen and slams
her pen on the counter and says, fine, I'll tell you.
I'm like, tell me what. She then proceeds to tell
(23:22):
me that her entire life, she has been followed by
a ghost or some sort of apparition at her house
that will and she described this type of stuff, and
we have confirmed it with her husband and her son,
who are both Shaff's deputies. Now they have things have
like they hear footsteps upstairs where they know there's nobody there,
(23:42):
doors slamming, their dog will bark at nothing in the
corner she has seen things run past. Her husband has
seen things run past. Looked almost like a little girl
running past down the hallway. She tells me all this stuff,
and I'm looking at her and I'm like at this,
I'm like, I can't figure out what this is. Now,
(24:02):
I got somebody that I trust. It's telling me a
story that I'm finding unbelievable. But I keep getting back
to why can I not explain how this phone call it?
So she then proceeds to tell me that When I
ask her, why didn't you tell me this before, She's like,
because three weeks ago, everything at the house stopped. Everything
was peaceful. And I'm like, well, then, why did you
(24:25):
tell me now? She's because last night everything started at
the house again. I end up going back and checking
that nine to one one call that we got was
the third nine to one one call from the front
desk of that school, but it was the only one
that had a voice, and those nine to one one
calls started three weeks before, so everything lined up. So again,
(24:48):
ty I went from a hardcore skeptic to I don't
know if it was a ghost. I don't know what
the heck it was. Maybe it's just technology we don't
understand yet, but I've transitioned from being that hardcore skeptic
to Okay, I'm willing to be open to stuff a
little bit here.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (25:10):
So then when I ended up meeting I went to
a different school, and that was when I started meeting
up with people from Moufon and that's when they asked
us to design this class for the lesson plan and
stuff like that, for investigation and stuff like that. And
one of the things that I loved is the same
techniques that I used during that investigation to try and
(25:31):
figure out that ghost story or whatever it was, was
the same techniques that they can use during their investigation.
And I'm being reminded by the person sitting next to me,
I forgot probably the most important part of the story.
So about two weeks after I gather all this evidence
and I'm working this case, I get a phone call
(25:52):
and it's from a sergeant that's upstairs. And anybody who's
in law enforcement or even fire, any first responder knows
what the term is a call from upstairs means. So
when I meet with this sergeant, I walk into his office.
He has two computer screens set up. One of them
is the voice analysis of the voice. The other one
(26:14):
is the security footage from the school. He plays them
both looks at me and says, you believe me, you
expect me to believe this, And I look at him
and I'm like, I really don't care what you believe.
This is what I found. This is my investigation. This
is what I found. He proceeded to accuse me of
(26:34):
being a liar, of trying to pull something over on him,
making up the whole thing, and basically ended it with
telling me that you will not talk about this and
if you do, there will be repercussions. And so I
ended up walking out of there, And first of all,
let me tell you I was angry. I'm going to
(26:55):
clean my language up for you. I was angry because
I walked out of the room and this guy was
a sergeant in name only, guy never did anything his
entire career. I got promoted, I had at this point,
I had the Life Saving Award, Meritorious Conduct, Distinguished Service,
Distinguished Team Citation three times, and like I had more
(27:15):
ribbons on my class A uniform than I knew what
to do with. And this guy's accusing me of being
a liar, accusing me of making this up. And the
problem was is he had all the leverage, and I
knew it the moment I walked out of his office.
If I say anything, my career is probably over. And
so when mary Ann called me all those years later
(27:36):
and says, why don't police officers talk about it? I
told her that whole story, and I said, the reason
they don't talk about it is because we can't. If
we do, it's a threat to our career.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
And it's not even and not I'm sorry to interject here,
but coming from a family that that is you know,
military law enforcement. And I'm sure you guys can back
us up, you know, brother in arms. Right, So if
this comes into the precinct right with you, it comes
(28:11):
much much like this ghost with the nurse. It seems
to hitchhike itself onto everybody, right, And that means the precinct,
your whole squadron is now quote unquote the laughing stalker.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
At least that's what they're afraid of.
Speaker 5 (28:32):
Yes, And that's one of the things because when Alejandro
Rojas was talking to Marianne about it, when we were
talking about why it happened, he had never heard anything
like that. We broke down all of the different stigmas
that officers would face at that moment where they have
to decide do I talk about what I experienced or
do I not? And Alejandro was like, you guys need
(28:52):
to kind of talk about this because right now everybody
thinks that police and law enforcement and first responders are
all part of some global coo to hide the truth.
And I'm telling them that has nothing to do with it.
I'm being held like my career is being held over
my head, saying if you keep talking, you're gonna better
get used to asking people if they want fries with that.
(29:13):
Because you're not getting a job with another police agency.
You're done. And because and it all stems from as
an officer, you touched on it at the beginning. We
have two things going for us on any case, the
evidence that we collect at that case and our credibility
on we being the ones that collected it and we
got the statements and we gathered all the stuff. Those
(29:34):
are the two things. They were basically saying that my
credibility was going to be shocked because they're going to
basically say that I made this all up. Therefore, my
credibility is shocked and my effective this is an officer.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
Is done absolutely And that's.
Speaker 5 (29:49):
That's ultimately why we created UAPPD, because we started by
just wanting to tell people, hey, just say you know,
this isn't like police aren't hiding the truth about a
or bigfoot or ghosts or something like that. We're kind
of in this catch twenty two where we can't talk
about it, but it's not because we don't want to
(30:09):
talk about it. And so I sat there for six
years with this story that I was not able to
talk to about anyone because I said, still had six
years left in my career. So I just buried it
and kept it hidden every time I got called upstairs
wondering is this the day did somebody say something? Did
it end up causing problems until the day to paper,
(30:34):
until the day that I retired, And then it became
we can't stop me now, And so we created UAPPD
for basically two reasons. Really. The first one is to
provide a safe environment for first responders to talk about
the stuff that they've seen. We're not going to judge anybody.
We don't judge, we don't criticize, we don't make fun of,
(30:55):
we don't do anything. A lot of times we won't
even do an investigation if they don't want us to
do an investor. We're just a sounding board more often
than anything else, right, just to give them that safe
environment where we can where they can talk, and then
we ask them, can we take your stories because we
do stage presentations, we did podcasts like yours, things like
that where we're trying to get word of our organization
(31:17):
out there to get more stories, and it's been relatively
successful since we've got stories from all over. When I
say the world, I'm not kidding. We got a story
about last month of a UFO sighting in Australia that
a police constable called us and did a zoom interview
and gave us a video and stuff like that from Australia.
So we've got we know from a fact that we've
(31:38):
got comments from South Africa, Ireland, Scotland, Mexico, Canada, New Zealand,
so we know we're getting out there and we're getting
stories from places outside of the country.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
Again kind of going back to this whole notion that again,
you know, not only is this not just something that's
happened in the United States, to the officers in military here.
But again, you know, I think a big misconception is
that everything happens in the United.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
States, when that's very far from the truth. This is
a global.
Speaker 2 (32:15):
This is a global issue, and I again I say
issue with quotations because we don't really know what like
the intent is.
Speaker 5 (32:25):
Yeah, and that's why, like, like we're we're known for
not pushing our own beliefs on people. We don't want to.
We don't want I don't ever want an officer to
come in here and listen, have him listen to me
telling him what I believe. Right, it doesn't matter what
I believe. It matters what they believe in what they saw,
And so we give them an opportunity to talk, We
(32:47):
give them an opportunity to get it off their chest
in a safe environment. We like to use it to
kind of encourage other officers because ultimately, like my goal, ultimately,
other than to help these first responders and ride that
safe environment is I would love to be able to
push that needle a little bit because again, twenty seventeen,
I didn't believe in any of this stuff. And now
(33:09):
I've had a number of incidents during some of our investigations,
some of our contacts, seeing some videos and stuff like that,
and I'm willing to start taking things a little bit
on faith. I want proof like everybody else, but I'm
also willing to go into it with a little bit
of an open mind. Right. And one of the things
that we noticed when we speak to officers who are
(33:33):
officers that are stationed on a reservation versus officers that
are not, the guys on the revs don't seem to
have the same stigmas. And it all comes down to
one thing. Their culture has a much more open belief
on these topics than people not on the reservation. So
(33:54):
when I'm told one of the officers from the Healer
River Reservation out here, when he was telling a story,
I told him about what happened to me getting called
up stairs, and he couldn't believe it because he did
his entire career there, and he's like, we would never
that would never happen to us, Like we would get
called up and they'd be like, hey, what do you
got and we tell him. Then they'd be like, oh,
good job, let's get this evidence logged in and everything
(34:16):
like that.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
But right, it's so much more, it's so much more accepted,
Like I just had in part because of Marianne's uh,
thank you for this. By the way, I'd been wanting
to chat with John Dover of the Navajo Nation for
for quite a while, and by the time this episode
(34:39):
comes out, I think it'll be three episodes back I
had him on and again. Yeah, the difference between you know,
what you guys were up against is a little different
than what he was up against because he was charged with,
you know, being a police officer, but also being a
police officer that you know, uh, some days you're gonna
have to investigate the the unknown, but the unknown is
(35:01):
part of their culture.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
So it's just the other day at the office.
Speaker 5 (35:05):
And John is real good friends with us, both John
and stan Stan Milford. Yep, we actually talk with them
a lot. They actually help us out with a lot
of stuff that happens on the res just helping us
with information, helping us with like contacts, stuff like that.
So it's great having them as a sounding board or
(35:26):
even just a resource. Yeah, we've had a couple of
things happened that we've been like, like we've been sitting
in Marianne's living room with John going, hey man, this
is what we got and he's been like, I can
tell you exactly what that is, and then we break
it all down and we talk about it and it's
an amazing resource. Like it's amazing how many interesting people
(35:47):
we have come to meet since we've started this, And
like I said, I'm proud of this. Heck of the
fact that since we've started this about two years ago,
we have over eighty stories from first responders all over
the world who had things happen, who trusted us enough
to come and talk to us, knowing that we're not
gonna judge, we're not gonna make fun of, we're not
going to criticize, and we will only use stories when
(36:09):
that officer says, yes, I'm okay with you using it.
We've had officers all across the board. Some have been like,
I just need to tell you this, but I can't
get it out. I can't have my name out there,
I can't let anyone know, and we're like, fine, tell
us that we're gonna get your help, we're gonna listen
to the story, give you that place to vent, and
then it just goes in a box and we never
use it. We've had other guys that have been like, yeah,
(36:32):
you can use my face, you can. You need me
to come on and talk, I'll talk. And we've had
everything in between. We've been some officers like there's one
that I know of that recently got promoted to sergeant.
He gave us a story and he's like, I cannot
have my face out there. I just got promoted. So
he's like, I have no problem with you using the story,
but you can't use my name. So we take it
even further. We don't use his name, and we don't
(36:52):
use the agency that he is with. We just refer
to it as an agency in Arizona, right, because, again,
our credibility, just like their credibility, is paramount. We want
we want these first responders to trust us. We want
people to trust us because we're talking about the truth,
and that's kind kind of one of the things we
touch on. I'm sorry I'm talking so much, but I'm
(37:15):
really kind of passionate about this. Is the most frustrating
thing about this entire scenario is we're talking about people
first or firefighters, police officers, corrections, EMTs, park rangers all
across the board, who are trusted because of, like you said,
their credibility, their ability to maintain their emotions in high
(37:37):
stressful situations. They're seeing stuff, they're telling the truth, and
they're getting in trouble for it. And that's the part
that is the most frustrating because it's we call it
in one of our sides, we call it the cost
of the cost of being truthful?
Speaker 1 (37:52):
Absolutely absolutely, So is it?
Speaker 5 (37:56):
What?
Speaker 2 (37:56):
What are Because now you said you're talking about the
cases that you've collected from other officers, Uh, is there
one that sticks out that you could talk about now?
Speaker 1 (38:08):
And and kind of because I want to I want
to hear how how you guys.
Speaker 2 (38:12):
I want to maybe go through how you guys take
a case from an officer and then what do you
do with it? If you can, if you can talk
about it, if it's you.
Speaker 5 (38:24):
Can, we can talk. We got so many stories.
Speaker 4 (38:30):
We we have one the okay, I'm going to tell
you about the Skinwalker case. Well you have one, and
then I'm going to have him do about five different
stories and then an investigation that we did and come
to find out it was on a reservation.
Speaker 3 (38:47):
Let me talk a little bit about the skin Walker case.
Speaker 4 (38:51):
We had an investigator with our agencies, Gilbert pad and
this guy is the probably one of the most serious
guys that I've ever He doesn't joke around.
Speaker 3 (39:03):
He takes everything very very serious.
Speaker 4 (39:07):
So he stopped for me in the hallway one day
and he says, Hey, I know that you've been with
Muffon and can I run something by you?
Speaker 3 (39:14):
And I said sure. He says, I was.
Speaker 4 (39:16):
Driving up State Highway eighty nine between Flagstaff and Page.
Now this roadway, for the folks that don't know Arizona.
Flagstaff is northern Arizona, and State Route eighty nine goes
further north to Page, Arizona, which is on the Utah border.
(39:37):
Now this roadway is on the Navajo reservation. So he says,
it's about ten o'clock at night. He's driving down State
eighty nine, State Route eighty nine.
Speaker 3 (39:48):
It's a two lane road. Yellow. It's a yellow line
right smack dab in the middle. There is picture marts
the the surface of Mars.
Speaker 4 (40:01):
This is the Yeah, it looks like it is red.
It has it has rocks everywhere. There are no trees,
there are no houses, there is nothing, and it is black.
There's not even a street light. So he's cruising down
the road, probably going about eighty eighty five miles an hour.
Speaker 3 (40:19):
There's nobody out there.
Speaker 2 (40:21):
Is there like, is there like mountains in the back
or is it eight planes or.
Speaker 3 (40:26):
I would say five to ten miles.
Speaker 4 (40:28):
Okay, So where he is at it is just small
rock like you would just picture the the surface of
Mars that kind of red and boulders and rock. But
there's no there's mountains way over on the sides where
the familion cliffs are, and up toward what would that
(40:50):
be the road that goes up the page. That's all
mountainous up there. But there are no trees, there are
no houses, there's no lights. It is pitch black. So
as he scruised him by all of a sudden, he
notices out of his provisional vision side vision that way,
thank you, on his right hand side, that there is
(41:14):
something that is right there by the road, pretty big,
and it starts to cross the road in front of them,
so it's going from the right to the left, right
in front of him.
Speaker 3 (41:24):
Well, he puts on the.
Speaker 4 (41:25):
Brakes really really fast, and he slows all the way down,
and this thing, this creature is on all fours now,
even on all fours, he said, the back of it
was probably at least four feet tall, and this thing
is going across the roadway very slowly, right in front
of him, and all it's stewing is it's looking right
(41:48):
at his headlights as it's walking across. Now, if there
was a deer, a coyote, whatever, they would see the
headlights and.
Speaker 3 (41:56):
They take off. This thing didn't.
Speaker 4 (41:59):
It just took its to I'm walking from the right
hand side of the car all the way to the left,
got off to the shoulder and just went and did
whatever it did. So it freaked him out. He's like,
what in the world was that? So he started he
started to go again, but this time he started going
slow because he wasn't sure kind of that area.
Speaker 3 (42:20):
Yep, that's the up there at the Grand Canyon. But
he's starting to slow.
Speaker 5 (42:25):
He's cruising up.
Speaker 4 (42:26):
About two miles later, Rare, you go right there, that's
exactly the area. Right there is the turnoff to Tuba City,
which is also on an alcohol reservation. Just he's past
that exit, he notices there's something now sitting in the
middle of the road. The double yellow there is something
(42:49):
sitting in the middle, So he again slows way down.
Speaker 3 (42:52):
He's like, what in the world is this thing?
Speaker 4 (42:54):
As he's going past it this thing is now on
its hind legs and it's just sitting there staring at
the car. And as the car went by, it sat
there and it just watched. His head moved with the car,
and as the car approached, the head stayed right with
the car. And as the car went by, the head
(43:16):
of this creature just followed the.
Speaker 3 (43:19):
Car as it went through it went by.
Speaker 4 (43:21):
Now, I asked the investigator, we can use Noah is
his first name, We can use Noah. But he said,
this thing, the head of it, when it was just
on a time leg sitting there, was over five feet
tall because it was over his car.
Speaker 1 (43:40):
So it's on its hind legs. It's fine.
Speaker 4 (43:43):
It's touched down like it's just sitting on like a
dog or whatever.
Speaker 1 (43:47):
It behind legs.
Speaker 3 (43:48):
This thing was over the head was over five feet tall.
Speaker 4 (43:51):
It was above his car, sedan car, and all it
did was just it just kind of watched, never moved,
never did anything. Well, Noah goes being an investigator, Hey,
what was that? He wanted to turn around and go
back and check it.
Speaker 6 (44:09):
Out, because I mean, oh my god, Well, luckily this area,
both shoulders on the roads are very very soft, and
he knew ten o'clock at night.
Speaker 4 (44:20):
He goes off the shoulder. He gets stuck. He'll never
get out until he's he's already freaking out. He goes,
I'm getting to where there's light and there's people. So
he kept going. He gets up the page, finds a
grocery store of a convenience store.
Speaker 5 (44:37):
Goes in.
Speaker 4 (44:40):
The clerk in this convenience store, it's in a Navajo
woman and she's being just so cheery with everybody.
Speaker 3 (44:45):
You know, Hi, how are you? What's going on? And
you could just tell she's very, very, very bubbly and outgoing.
Speaker 4 (44:54):
So Noah grabs some drinks and some snacks, puts them
out on the front on the counter, and.
Speaker 3 (44:59):
She goes, hey, how are you? Where you going? Where
are you coming from? And he's talking and he goes,
can I ask.
Speaker 1 (45:05):
You a question?
Speaker 4 (45:06):
She goes sure. He goes, do you have any wolves
or coyotes out here? And she goes, well, there might
be a coyote everywhere once, you know, maybe sporadically in some.
Speaker 3 (45:18):
Areas, but there won't be any wolves. We don't have
the terrain for wolves.
Speaker 1 (45:22):
And she goes, well.
Speaker 4 (45:24):
He proceeds tell her what he saw as he was
driving down the road and coming up to page, her
demeanor went from very bubbly, very outgoing, to very serious.
Speaker 3 (45:36):
It just turned just like that. She got very serious.
Speaker 4 (45:39):
She takes her his snacks, put him in a bag,
shoves the bag into him, and says, you need.
Speaker 3 (45:45):
To leave now.
Speaker 1 (45:45):
She knows what she knows what it is.
Speaker 3 (45:48):
So he's freaking out.
Speaker 4 (45:50):
So he gets up, of course, gets the page, goes
and does whatever he's going to do.
Speaker 3 (45:53):
Well, you know, he goes, I have no idea what
that was all about. He goes.
Speaker 4 (45:57):
I know that you probably would know something. So here's
my story. Here's what's going on now. I asked him,
because he didn't of course, didn't have any.
Speaker 3 (46:07):
Pictures or anything.
Speaker 4 (46:07):
I says, would you be willing to meet with one
of my sketch artists and take, you know, and draw
a picture of what you saw?
Speaker 3 (46:17):
Especially when this thing was sitting in the middle of
the road. So I go sure. So I had him. Now,
for folks that don't know a sketch.
Speaker 4 (46:25):
Artist, we use him in police departments like they're going
to sketch bad guy. They'll give him the features, eyes, nose, height,
all this stuff, and the sketch chartist will actually draw.
Speaker 2 (46:38):
Yeah, they'll take they'll take the witnesses testimony and create
a kind of bring it to life if you will,
like a like a storyboard exactly.
Speaker 3 (46:47):
So I didn't.
Speaker 4 (46:48):
Unfortunately, I don't have that picture with me right now,
but sketch artist, I do have it.
Speaker 3 (46:54):
I'd have to find it for you.
Speaker 1 (46:56):
But if you could.
Speaker 3 (46:58):
By the time Staires I'll get to that picture.
Speaker 1 (47:00):
Doesn't say you could, I'll mark the spot.
Speaker 5 (47:03):
So we got it.
Speaker 4 (47:04):
So anyway, so he did that. I see the picture now.
It looks cartoonish, it really does.
Speaker 5 (47:11):
It is.
Speaker 4 (47:14):
It is long, it has a wolf type face, it
is elongated in its jaw, it had the big teeth
and the eyes were just wild, and it's sitting on
it on its hind legs.
Speaker 3 (47:27):
So this is what he he this is what he saw.
Speaker 4 (47:30):
And again, you know, I wasn't gonna laugh at him,
because this is one guy that does not joke around.
Speaker 5 (47:38):
Now.
Speaker 4 (47:38):
I did talk to John Dover stan Mill for Junior,
of course, like we were just talking about the Novajo
rangers and I told him this story and I told
him how what how the Navajo woman clerk reacted to
the story, And he goes, yeah, Noah saw a skin
walker and he you know, when he told the story
(48:00):
to the clerk, she was afraid that that attachment of
this skin walker, whatever it is, on Noah, would attach
to her and she didn't want anything to do with it.
That's why she got serious. She handed him his groceries
and told him to get out of the store. And
(48:21):
so that was really an interesting one. That's one of
our first skinwalker cases that we got from an officer.
Speaker 1 (48:30):
To be continued
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