UAP PD Part 2

Episode Guest: Marianne Robb & Dave Rich – UAP-PD (Unidentified Anomalous Phenomenon Police Department)
In this foolow up episode, retired Arizona law enforcement officers Marianne Robb and Dave Rich – with a combined 59 years on the job –  continue to pull back the curtain on one of the most taboo topics in policing: encounters with Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena (UAP), paranormal events, and cryptids.

As founders of the UAP-PD, Marianne and Dave reveal why so many officers and first responders have stayed silent about what they’ve seen in the line of duty – from inexplicable lights in the Arizona sky to chilling ground-level confrontations with the unknown. They share their own firsthand experiences and compelling stories collected from fellow officers who finally felt safe enough to speak. What happens when the people sworn to protect and serve come face-to-face with phenomena they can’t explain… and aren’t allowed to talk about?

Why do seasoned cops, deputies, and dispatchers choose silence over sharing evidence that could change everything? Join us for an eye-opening conversation that bridges the gap between badge and bizarre, featuring some of the most credible and unsettling UAP, paranormal, and cryptid cases ever reported by law enforcement professionals. Prepare to have your perception of reality challenged – this is where law enforcement meets the truly unknown.

Part 2/2

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hmmmmm.

Speaker 2 (00:36):
Do you, as a law enforcement officer, as a trained professional,
do you believe there is such thing as a transformation,
transforming shapeshifting, which that can turn into an animal? And

(01:00):
I mean, do you believe that's in walks exist? You
don't have to say yes or you don't want to. Yeah,
So that's again community answer.

Speaker 3 (01:13):
I believe there's anything that can be out there. Anything
could be out I.

Speaker 2 (01:18):
Listen and yeah, you don't have to put your eggs
in one basket.

Speaker 3 (01:22):
Yeah, I mean there's all kinds of stuff. We are
not alone in this universe. We are not alone at
all and anything. And you know, I listened to John
and Stan and what they teach me of what's going
on up in all of the uh Native reservations that
there there are evil. There's evil in you know, our

(01:45):
cultures that maybe they don't turn, you know, in animals,
but there are evil and that.

Speaker 2 (01:53):
Is just one And I don't think it's I don't
think it's super crazy to think that in a world
where uh huh, you know.

Speaker 4 (02:09):
You've froze there for a second, we heard in a
world and then it froze.

Speaker 2 (02:14):
Can you hear me? Yeah, yeah, we can hear you now,
Oh that's weird. Maybe a little network interruption to me,
Uh that.

Speaker 3 (02:22):
Wanted us to talk about these things.

Speaker 2 (02:24):
I was gonna say, or we're getting hacked because I'm hardwired.
But in a world where we're hurtling through space on
a rock and you know, it's just the fact that
we're having a conversation about this right now, is is
is such a miracle right, like such the fact that

(02:48):
this all exists, right, that matter all came together like
this and this magic that we that we call reality. Uh,
I've just learned to stop, uh making it black and
white and allowing for you know, a little gray. And
I think, like it's crazy to think about. You know,
some people who won't believe in a god or uh

(03:12):
some sort of creator, right, and they're they'll they'll go
to church and they'll pray to angels and they're afraid
of demons. And you know why, while they are while
they are in the same breath saying that UFOs and
aliens don't exist or we shouldn't engage with it, you

(03:34):
know that they're they're saying angels and demons do exist.
And by by definition, angels and demons and God if
you want to say it is by definition a non
human intelligence. So like in this world, I think that

(03:54):
we should be like skin walk like evil is definitely real,
It's tangible. Sometimes. I'm sure as investigators of things U
as police officers, that you guys have walked into a
crime or walked onto a crime scene or uh you
know a what would be a crime scene uh by

(04:16):
the time, you know whatever, and felt evil, like tangible evil.
And to say that that it doesn't exist and that
it doesn't attract and it you know, it's not there,
that that's just being foolish.

Speaker 4 (04:32):
Okay, I've got.

Speaker 2 (04:35):
Becuse just just just humans in general can are are
so like I think there are people out there that
are have sold whatever it is there that that we
call a soul. I think they've sold it. And I'm
looking at you peer teel right, I'm looking at you
Peter specifically, and and people like you because it like

(05:00):
you just look at these people and you're like what
is going on? Like what are you? And I'm sure
you've been in rooms where maybe even interrogation rooms, where
you know that you're sitting across from evil and when
you come in that room that the life, the energy

(05:21):
like they are energy vampires. But there's also the opposite,
there's someone who just their presence brings a room up.
So good and evil are definitely tangible.

Speaker 4 (05:35):
So so strapping because I have a bunch of things
I want to say right now. First of all, I
will tell you with evil exists?

Speaker 2 (05:43):
Yeah, I went on all right, I said, I I
went off on a tangent. I'm sorry about That's okay.

Speaker 4 (05:51):
I have sat in the interrogation room and I have
interrogated terrible, terrible people. I have had physical reactions where
after I was done with the interview and the interrogation,
I have literally gone into the next room and thrown up.
It was that helpable that you could feel the lack
of remorse, the callousness, what you would call evil. That

(06:16):
was just it seemed almost otherworldly. And I have done
interviews like that with murder suspects, with child abused, child
molested suspects. So when you say do I think evil exists,
there's not a doubt in my mind. You asked, do

(06:37):
I think that something can change from one form to another?
Let me ask you this. You ever see a caterpillar
and a butterfly boy? They won't They're the same thing,
but they're not. They went through a change. So if
you say that it's impossible for something to change from
one form to another, it happens.

Speaker 2 (06:58):
Happened, really a really good one.

Speaker 4 (07:01):
Now going into your Bible story. In the Bible, I'll
be the first to event I am a Christian. I
believe in Jesus, I believe in God, I believe in angels.
I believe in demonic possession because I've seen things. I
believe in ghosts. I also believe that. The Bible makes
reference to things called behemoths and juggernuts, which are creatures

(07:23):
that we don't understand, which could be things that are
on this planet that we don't understand, lockness, monster, bigfoot,
things like that. It never goes into to explain what
those things are. It just makes reference to the fact
that there are things on this planet.

Speaker 2 (07:39):
We don't It's and sorry to interject here, but discussion wise,
it's kind of funny because the Bible talks about these
things almost as if it's assuming the reader knows exactly
what this is, because it doesn't give any explanation or
exposition about what it is, so it's almost like who

(08:00):
you know. The Bible whoever wrote it. It's like they're
assuming that you're going to know exactly what this is.
And that makes me think, like what if we've like
are we just talking about the same thing with different
names aliens and demons and fairies and you know, and
then there's yeah, let.

Speaker 4 (08:21):
Me blow your mind once more. So now we've covered ghosts,
we've covered demonic possession. They're all in the Bible. We
have stories of Jesus casting demons out of people, we
have stories of ghosts, we have stories of strange creatures
that we don't know what they are. So the last
thing that, the last hurdle we want to cover is
alien life. Right does it not say at the beginning
of the Bible in Genesis God created the heavens and

(08:43):
the earth. He does not say it does not say
anywhere in there what the heavens means. And so I
get people that come up to me and say, well,
that doesn't mean alien light. Why is there nothing about
alien life in the Bible? And to that I respond with,
when you buy a geasher, do you get a manual
for the ge refrigerator?

Speaker 2 (09:03):
No?

Speaker 4 (09:04):
No, The Bible has always been referred to as the
manual that Christians use for life here on Earth. Why
would we have stories and lessons for a different planet
in the book about us being here on Earth when
we can't get really, we can't get people past the

(09:25):
moon yet. No, I mean, we can get robots and
probes and stuff out to Mars and out and beyond.
But we live in a universe where we cannot perceive
the end of it. Why would we be entitled by
God if we really believe in God to have that information?
Yet maybe we're not proposed to. So that's what I

(09:47):
feel about religion and stuff, because I truly do believe
in God. I believe that it's all. I just think
God made all of it because it says He made everything.
So now I forgot he had so many questions. I
forgot where I was.

Speaker 2 (10:02):
Well, you did, you did answer. You did answer. So
the that you do think that a skinwalker could exist
and that evil is tangible.

Speaker 4 (10:11):
I haven't even told you why I think skinwalkers exist yet.
Do you want to hear that story?

Speaker 2 (10:20):
Yeah, let's go.

Speaker 4 (10:21):
Okay, let's go as long as you're willing to hold on.
This is a little convoluted story. And when I tell
you at the end you're going to be like bold,
but it's God's honest truth, and we have lots of witnesses.

Speaker 2 (10:35):
Like I said, okay, so.

Speaker 4 (10:39):
During the course of our gathering of stories, we usually
get like a story and event happened at a location,
and then you're like, oh, okay, so this event happened
at this location. There are very few places on the
planet where you can have one location, but it has
a variety of different actstivity at it, like ranging all

(11:01):
across the board. Places that jump into mind are like
Skinwalker Ranch, where they have paranormal they have skinwalkers, they
have alien life forms, they have all these different things
that are happening at that one location. So we're gathering
stories from different different officers and we end up finding

(11:22):
a location on a on one of the reservations right
out here where we end up having is it five
officers now, I think we're up to five different officers
that all had experiences at this location. And these experiences
are all over the board. So the first one is

(11:44):
in their post academy. We had an officer that told us, oh, yeah,
we're trained in our post academy that when we drive
down the dirt road past this mission. This church that's
out in the middle of nowhere. It's on a dirt road.
You drive past this mission and it's after dark. You
are supposed to reach up and flip the rear view

(12:05):
mirror up so you can't see in the back seat.
And I'm looking at him. I'm like why, and he's like,
because if you don't and you look in the back
window or in the mirror into the back seat, if
you see two glowing red eyes in the back seat,
you have to immediately contact your supervisor, go to the

(12:26):
station where they will arrange for a shaman to come
and sever the attachment that just happened to you. This
is a police agency instructing their officers to do this.
And I tell that story to people and people don't
get it. You don't understand how that is huge. That
is an absolutely huge thing, not just because of the

(12:48):
creepy eyes in the back seat, but the fact that
the agency has this the.

Speaker 2 (12:52):
Standard operating procedure around it is what's yes.

Speaker 4 (12:57):
So after we get that story, we get a story
about a officer who was driving past this mission. He
had another officer behind him. Now, if you go down
the dirt road past the mission, there's acting an area
where they go shooting and where they practice all their
firearms training. Way down the road. So they're driving back,
it's after dark. This officer has a ride along in

(13:20):
his seat next to him. It's now his wife. At
the time, they were just dating. They're driving down the
dirt road and they're moving okay, it's like thirty is
it's a dirt road. It's you know, they're going twenty
five thirty miles an hour. And she looks at she's
talking to him, looking at him, and she looks out
the driver's side window, and she's like, what the heck
is that? And he looks over and the way he
described it is, he's like, it was this giant creature

(13:45):
that was very similar in description to the one that
Noah gave us, large, almost canine type creature, kind of formed,
weird like male formed and stuff like that, and it's
keeping pace with the vehicle. Now, there are no wols
in this part of Arizona. There's coyotes, but these coyotes
you're getting two and a half maybe three feet tall.

(14:05):
A three foot tall coyote is big. This thing was
like closer to four almost five feet though, and it's
running keeping pace with them in the vehicle. As they
get to the mission, it runs in front of them,
cuts in front of the vehicle, and runs back towards
the mission. This guy he sees, he's like, I don't

(14:26):
know what that is. We're getting out of here now.
Remember I said he had a police another car behind
him with another officer in it. That officer takes off
after him. They go down this dirt road all the
way to this paved road. They make a left, they
go down and then there's a chevron and they pull
into the chevron and he gets out of the car
and the other officer gets out of the car and
he's like, did you see that thing that ran past.

(14:47):
He's like, yeah, I saw it ran right in front
of us. And they're both like, we don't know what
is that. I don't know what it was. And the
thing that was interesting is the officer in the second car,
he says, as it was towards the mission, this mission,
like I said, it's the middle of nowhere. There's probably
it's probably a mile to the closest house, and even

(15:07):
maybe even more to the closest house. There is one
light that is behind this mission. So The mission basically
has the church building, this annex building, and then this
like little patio covered area and there's a light right there.
And that light it's like they tell they describe it
as it snaps on and it snaps off. If it
turns on, it's poof, it's on. When it turns off,

(15:28):
it's poof, it's off. Right. The other officer that was
following him is like, as it was running towards the mission,
the light didn't snap off. It faded and got dimmer
and dimmer as this thing got close to it, and
when it got to it, it shut off. He's like,
I never saw where it went past the annex building.

(15:50):
So we're like, okay, two stories at this mission. Interesting.
So then we get another officer who comes up and says, hey,
I was at this mission and we're like that mission
and he's like yeah, and he's backed in because the
entire mission, it's it's still an active church. On Sundays
they have services there. So the entire mission is surrounded

(16:11):
by a chain link fence so that people don't get
on there during you know, Monday through Saturday when there's
nobody there. So the thing that they like is it's
a great place to back your patrol car up when
you're writing reports. So you'll back your patrol car because
you know nobody's gonna come up from behind you because
you got this big fence there. So this other officer
is backed up there and he's working on a report,

(16:32):
and all of a sudden he feels something shake his
patrol car, like just a little kind of nudge that
he feels it. He's like, was that really something? Is
it my imagine?

Speaker 2 (16:42):
I don't know?

Speaker 4 (16:43):
So he turns the lights all on, the takedowns the
side alley lights, stuff like that. When you turn all
the lights on on a police car, you get a
lot of light around that car. And he's looking out
the windows. He's looking around, he can't he doesn't see anything.
He's like, okay, this is weird. So he turns all
over the lights off. Thinks it's his imagination, goes back
to typing, and then something violently pushes the side of

(17:05):
the car. He literally feels the entire car shape. He
turns on the lights. He doesn't see anything, knows the
stories of this mission, so he puts it in drive.
He takes off beats feet to the chevron. Because when
things get dicey, you go to the chevron. So he
gets to the chevron. Now he's been driving down this
dirt road, so all this dirt is kicking up and everything.
He gets to the chevron, gets out of the car.

(17:27):
He's taking a breather. He walks around to the rear
passenger side of the car, and he tells us he
sees in the dust on the window a human hand
that is miniaturized, like a small human hand, looks almost
like a child's hand, like a tiny hand. So this

(17:47):
is the point where he proceeds to tell us about
a little thing called the Little People. I don't know
if your listeners have ever heard of the Little people,
but in Native American beliefs, they are a race of
terranean creatures that look like miniature humans. They look just
exactly like a human, but they dress in rags and
tattered stuff, and they're small. They're like two feet tall,

(18:10):
maybe three feet tall, and they are known to be
almost like pranksters or tricksters. They remind me a lot
of like puck wedgies and stuff like that up in
the Northeast, where they will start by making like almost
like trickery, tricking things kind of like tripping people up,
and they get more and more violent with what they're
doing until they ultimately cause somebody to get seriously hurt

(18:33):
or killed. And so he sees this little handprint, and
he remembers that there is a legend in the tribe
that there is an area right by that mission where
the little people have access to the surface world, and
so he's like, I don't know what this is. All
I know is that there was a handprint there. And
I don't know where that handprint came from because it

(18:54):
was in the dust, but the dust wasn't stuck to it,
so it had to be new. So that's third story
at the mission. And then remember that one because one
of the stories, the newest ones we got is going
to tie into that one, the fourth story that we
got at this mission. There's another officer. When you are
driving down this dirt road towards this mission, the annex

(19:16):
building is the first thing you see in the headlights.
So they round this the road kind of bends away,
and so your headlights light up the front of this
annex building. This annex building is pretty small. It's got
a door on the double door on the front door
on the back there's really nothing inside of it but
a main room and I think like a rest of
bathrooms in the back. As they're rounding the corner, their

(19:38):
headlights light up the front and they see that the
front doors are kicked in, and so the being officers,
they stop and they're like, well, we got to go
check if somebody broke into this building, but the gate
is locked. So they hop the fence like we've all
had to do numerous times in the past, and they
go up the stairs in the three light steps up
into the annex building and they do what they will

(20:00):
call clear the building. They check it. There's nobody inside
this building. So now they walk back to the front
and they're looking at the front door and they're like, well,
we got to secure the building, but since it was
kicked open, we can't lock the building. And so they
look down and on the ground next to the stairs
are three cinder blocks, and so they're like, okay, well
we can bring these cinder blocks inside, push the door shut,

(20:23):
stack the cinder blocks inside the door, so it we'll
create the illusion that the door is shut. We've already
checked the back door. The back door works. We can
go out the back door. They we'll go around. We'll
call the people that own the building and make sure
that they're aware that and say, hey, it's secured on
a parent it's not really secured. So they're like, okay, yeah,
let's do that. So they bring the three bricks inside,

(20:44):
they push the door shut, they stack the bricks up,
they walk out the back, and they walk around to
the front. Now, from the time that they stack up
the bricks, walk out the back door, and walk back
to the front. Because of the size of the building,
you're talking a grand total of about ten seconds. It
is not a big building. Okay, So they walk out
the back door ten seconds later, they're now at the

(21:07):
front to go back to top the fence to get
to their patrol car. When they get to the front door,
the front doors are standing wide open, and those three
cinderblocks are eight to ten feet out in the dirt.
And they stop and they look at it and they're like,
they're looking around. There's no way somebody could have gotten in.
They would have had to because they weren't. There's nobody

(21:28):
inside the building. They were in the building. Somebody would
have had to have come up, pushed open the doors,
knocked the bricks off, grabbed the bricks, throw them out
into the dirt, ran back down, popped over the fence,
and got out of site in ten seconds. While two
officers trained inspector investigators are walking around. Wouldn't hear the
doors getting pushed open? See anybody climbing over the fence,

(21:51):
hear anybody throwing these cinder box nothing?

Speaker 2 (21:54):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (21:55):
Right, So the two doctors look at each other and
they're like, what do you want to do? The train
because it was an officer and his training officer, He's like,
we're out, let's go say hot defence. They took off.
So here's story number five. I'm not gonna mention any names,

(22:15):
but Marian decided that since we have so many stories
at this location, I think a brilliant idea would be
for us to go out there and do an investigation.

Speaker 2 (22:26):
Why not? Why not?

Speaker 4 (22:28):
Why not? We got stories exactly? This is all good.
We're trained investigators, we're good. So we have well, technically,
we have three other people that are involved in our group,
James Keenan and then two other husband and wife combination,
Jesse and Gwen gwen Is. I don't know how else

(22:50):
to describe it other than she knows stuff like she
just knows.

Speaker 2 (22:53):
Stuff like intuitive or or is she smart?

Speaker 4 (22:57):
Yeah, no, no, she's like an intuitive medium.

Speaker 2 (23:00):
Type of Okay, thank got it.

Speaker 4 (23:02):
And again when I first met her, kind of skeptical.
I've known her now for years and I just can't
explain how she knows this stuff. But she's pretty spot
on accurate.

Speaker 2 (23:11):
So some people are just like it's almost like they
operate on a different like frequency and they see beyond
the veil or whatever it is.

Speaker 4 (23:21):
So the two of us, Jesse and Gwen decide we're
going to go out to the mission and check it out.
So of course if we're going to check it out,
we can't check it out during the daytime alone. We
want to see it after dark because that's where all
the scary stuff's happening.

Speaker 2 (23:33):
Could I ask a question real quick before you begin this,
Now do you go? I would assume at least that
are you going to the local police department and saying, hey, guys,
we're here. We're gonna go down to this place that
we've been getting reports from, Like how does that work?

(23:54):
Did you communicate with the officers at all?

Speaker 4 (23:57):
You always want to get permsson because these are locations that,
especially when you're on the reservation, that's trespassing, so you
have to let people know you know who you are,
what you're doing, stuff like that. So you always want
to make sure that you get all of your things
in order before you go out there. So we end

(24:18):
up going out there, and when we first get there,
it's daylight, and Jesse and I will kind of do
like a walk around where Marianne and Gwen are staying
at the front kind of the Gwen's trying to get
a feel Marian's got some cameras and stuff. Jesse and
I go for a little bit of a walk. There's
a dry river creek bed that runs next to it

(24:39):
that you can drop down into and walk around that
has some pretty high cliffs that we can't get up to,
but we walk around it. And when I come back
to the front, I look at Gwen and I go, well,
there's a lot of activity here, and she gets all excited. Oh,
there's a lot of activity, and I'm like, time out
high speed what I mean when there's like a fire
pit in the back, there's broken beer bottles, there's quad tracks,

(25:00):
there's a lot of activity that makes me think that
there's like high school age kids that are out here
party and when when it's Friday night and Saturday night,
stuff like that. So we kind of walk around try
to get a feel for it. Gwen has some unusual
feelings about this well that's in the front. She gets
some feelings about the buildings itself. But for the most part,
we sit there and we're just like kind of trying

(25:22):
to stay quiet, just kind of trying to watch see
what's going on, see if we see anything or hear anything.
We don't see anything or hear anything. So now it's
getting dark. We've been out there for a couple of hours,
and we're at the point now where we're like, you know,
I don't know if anything's gonna happen, we may as
well take off. So I have a pickup truck. We're

(25:42):
all going to pile into the pickup truck. We had
a cooler full of drinks and stuff like that for
while we were sitting there, water, gatory and stuff like that.
So I take the cooler and I put it in
the back of my truck and I slam the tailgate shut.
And the moment that I slam the tailgate shot. The
only thing that I can say is it felt like
a bolt of electricity shot up my back and I

(26:06):
was like, like, the only thing I can think is
you need to turn around. And I have never, like
I've had hunches. Twenty five years as a cop, you
get hunches. This was like a hunch on another level.
I've never felt something that strong, be like, you need
to turn around, right, it's been around. And I look

(26:26):
past the mission by the annex and I see something
walk out from behind this annex and I have never
seen anything like that in my life. It was probably
about six and a half to seven feet tall. It
had shaggy hair on its head, but it did not
have hair on its body. It had like rags on it.

(26:51):
And the way that I described it, I would describe
it as it was this weird shade of tan that
almost exactly actually the desert behind it, So if it
was daylight, it would be like camouflaged to the background.
And I see this thing and I'm like, what the heck?

(27:13):
And Gwen is standing right next to me and goes
what the heck? And I'm like, are you seeing this?
And she's like, yes, what is that? And I'm like
I don't know. Now here's the weird part. I've got
Marianne on this side of me, and Jesse is on
the other side of Gwen. Neither of them could see
the thing that Gwen and I were looking at, and

(27:33):
I'm like, what the heck? And this thing moves to
the middle of the dirt road that runs past it,
and then it kind of starts rocking back and forth,
like facing us, but kind of going like this, and
I'm like, this is kind of weird. And then all
of a sudden, a second thing comes running out from
behind and it's on all fours and it looked like

(27:58):
the only way I could describe it is that black
on black. It looked like a living shadow almost, and
it came crawling out and it moved weird. It charged
forward to us, towards us about maybe five or six steps.
It was enough that I literally swept my coat away
and grabbed it my handgun. So I was about to

(28:21):
draw down on this thing. And as soon as I
did that, it stopped, and I looked at I looked
back at the truck, and I looked back and they
were gone, like that quick gone. So I look at
Gwenn and I'm like, did you see that. She's like yeah,
and We're like, we need to go, and she's like yeah.
So everybody loads up in the truck and we take off. So,

(28:45):
of course we beat feet to the Chevron because when
things get dicey, you go to the Chevron.

Speaker 2 (28:51):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (28:53):
Now I understand why every officer told me when you
see something weird, you drive to the chevron because it's
about two miles way, but it is the only thing
that is open with light anywhere near there. And so
now I understand why everybody runs to the chevron when
they see something there. Right, So we get to the Chevron.
Now here's the interesting stuff. We teach a class about

(29:16):
all these stigmas that law enforcement face, and one of
them is what we call the believability factor, and that's
based off the fact that everybody has certain beliefs and
things that they believe, what they think is real, what
they think is not real, and when you see something
that you can't grasp, you start to kind of fall
back into this, well, it's just too unbelievable. I can't

(29:38):
believe that it happened. That's ridiculous. So we drive two
miles down the road to the Chevron, and by the
time we get to the Chevron, I have pretty much
convinced myself that I didn't see anything and it was
all in my head.

Speaker 2 (29:51):
Now.

Speaker 4 (29:51):
The problem was is when I looked at Gwen, She's like,
but I saw it too, and I'm like, okay. So then,
continuing on with the story, we grab some drinks, we
load back up in the truck, and now we're going
to drive back towards our side of town. We decide
we're going to go get something to eat, so we

(30:11):
go to a restaurant and I won't mention the name,
even though I love the restaurant, but we don't want
to get trademark issues here. We're sitting there and by
the time we get to the restaurant, I have once
again convinced myself that I didn't see anything, and this
is ridiculous. It was a trick of the light or something.
I don't know what it is. Gwen keeps saying, well,

(30:32):
I saw something. I don't know what it is. The
entire time we're having this conversation, somebody not mentioning any names.
Marianne is playing around with something and I can't see
what it is. And after I'm talking to Gwen, I'm like,
I don't know, maybe we saw something. Maybe it wasn't.
Maybe it's a trick of the light. Maybe it was
I don't know. And that's when Marianne hands me a

(30:52):
video camera she was recording, and she's like, what do
you use see here? And I look on the video
and I don't know what it is, but it it
didn't look exactly like what I saw, but it looked
like the only way you can describe it is in
the movie Predator when the predator is moving and you

(31:16):
know how it's invisible and it's you can see a
silhouette moving. But yeah, tell it looked like that. So
she hands me this video. I'm looking at this video.
We put it on the computer, we pull it up,
we can see it. We're like, we don't know what
this is, So of course we're gonna take this video
and we're gonna send it to the one person that

(31:36):
we know that if this is bunk, he is going
to tell us it's bunk. And that person, Mark d' antonio.

Speaker 2 (31:43):
Absolutely, we saw the video analyst remove on if everyone
doesn't want to.

Speaker 4 (31:48):
Send him the video. And there were two things in
the video that we saw one and we knew that
the one was was Bunk. It was a a post
from a that because of the shadow, looked like a
figure kind of moving out, but it was over too far.
That was not the thing that we saw, but it
was in the video. And I'm not gonna lie to you.

(32:10):
We said it because we wanted to see if Mark
would say, hey, that's just a post in it not something.

Speaker 2 (32:16):
That's actually a good tactics like a police officer, just
like trait or investigative mind set is like here, let
me give him something that I think is fake, and
I want to see his like discernment.

Speaker 4 (32:27):
So everything that we do we try and put it
through as much of a ringer as we can put
it through to make sure that it's as legit as possible.
Right being Mark, I mean Mark, he's the number one
guy on the planet. He caught that pretty quick. He's like, well,
that's just a pillar from from the a post from
the fence that when when the camera moves over, the

(32:49):
light lights it up and it looks like a creature
kind of going like this with its arm forward right,
And he's like, but he's like, I don't know what
you have here. He's like this stuff the shimmering not
really shimmering. But like this like kind of oh, how
to describe it, like pixelated kind of something. He's like,
that's not a trick of the light. That's not a

(33:11):
camera flare. That's nothing like I've ever seen. He's like,
and you know it's humanoid. It's moving on two legs.
And we did not tell him what we saw. We
just said, hey, there's two things in this video clip
we want you to take a look at. He was
the one who told us it basically confirmed the two
things that we wanted seeing. But he comes back and

(33:34):
tells us, I don't know what that is, but it's
humanoid whatever it is. So so we have this on video,
we have presented it at stage presentations, and people have
come up and seen it, and nobody can explain this thing.
So we end up meeting with John John Nover. He
was over here at the house and I ended up

(33:57):
like kind of just hey, John, we had this weird
thing happened, and I kind of explain everything to him,
this is what we saw. By the way. I keep
looking because I want to see if it's still daylight out,
because I respect the beliefs of the Native Americans out here,
and they say, you don't say those words after dark,
you're not to say. So I keep checking because I

(34:20):
want to make sure it's still daylight, because I don't
want to say it after dark. But we I explained
it all to John, and I'm like, what do you
think it is? And John's looking at me like I'm crazy,
and he goes, I can tell you exactly what it is,
and I was like what. He's like, you ran into
two skin walkers and I was like what, And so

(34:40):
he proceeds to explain because he's like, not only were
they skinwalkers, I can tell you exactly why they did
what they were doing. And so he said one of
them had changed, the other one had not changed yet
He's like the one that changed, he said, when they
change from a form to a human form, their eyesight
it is not good for about ten to fifteen minutes.

(35:02):
He says, they can't see very well. So he said,
most likely what ended up happening was the one changed
from a creature for whatever creature form it had, to
a humanoid form right at the same time that you
slam the tailgate shut it. Hears the tailgate slam because
we had been whispering, not making any noise. So it's

(35:24):
walking across. Here's the tailgate. Shut spins around to see
what it is, but it can't see what's going on,
so that's why it's kind of moving back and forth
trying to see what made that noise. He said that
they transform separately, so that one is always on guard
for the other.

Speaker 1 (35:41):
The other.

Speaker 4 (35:42):
Yeah, he said, the one that was on all fours
came running around to protect the one. It stops sees
you guys, charged forward to scare you guys, but you
didn't run. You reached for your gun, so it stopped,
and then they both got out of there. When you
look back at the truck, they realized this is not
a fight. We want to get it, so they took

(36:02):
off while we were.

Speaker 5 (36:03):
Looking at the truck interest and deep I listened to
this and I'm like, this is one of the leading
experts on skinwalkers in the world, and he seems to
think that's what it was.

Speaker 4 (36:16):
I got no reason to doubt him. And like I said,
at this point in my life, I have encountered enough
things that I can't explain, Like I don't know what
that is. We sent that video out for analysis. We
have had more people see this clip than I know
what to do with and nobody can give us anything.
I think it's a skinwalker?

Speaker 2 (36:35):
Is it? Is it somewhere I can look and look
it up?

Speaker 4 (36:41):
No, we have, We haven't in our presentation. We don't
share a lot of our stuff because we're worried about
where it's going to go. So if you wanted to
see it, I would be willing to send it to you,
but I not want it out like we normally will
tell people to not Like we the nine to one
one tape, we have the security footage, we have this

(37:04):
video clip, we have a lot of video. We've got
bodycam footage from officers, We've got close circuit TV video
from things. We show it to people, but we always
ask them to turn off any type of recording. You.
We would let you see it, but you got to
promise us you're not going to put it out or
anything like that.

Speaker 2 (37:21):
I can make that promise, Okay, I just want I'd
like to definitely see it. Yeah, I'll agree to that.
And so with the evidence that you have kind of
gathered on this particular mission, Oh.

Speaker 4 (37:42):
We have one more story. It's about mission I forget.
So we had a completely different officer who had a
different sighting and a different part of the res tells
us he was at that location writing reports, and remember
how I said the little people will try to lure
people or trick people. He's sitting there and he's got
the windows down because it's, you know, a nice night out.

(38:04):
He's typing and he tells us, I heard a baby crying.
And I get out of the patrol car and I'm like,
why would there be a baby crying out here? And
I started walking towards the sound, and it was coming
from that ravine. And he's like, I'm walking towards it,
which is this is the area where they claim that
they have access to the surface world. And so he's like,

(38:26):
I would stop moving, and I would hear the cry again.
I'd take a couple of steps and then it would stop,
and so I wouldn't I'd stop and then I would
hear the cry again. And he's like, I got about
halfway between the patrol car and this dry river bed,
and all of a sudden, I got this feeling like
I'm being lured away from the patrol car, like something

(38:50):
is trying to get me to go over here. So,
remembering the story of the little people, he goes back
to the petrol car and he takes off. But I
found it ironic because he's like, this is a trained
officer who's hearing a baby cry in an area where
there should not be any babies. Of course, just to
put everybody's mind at ease, after the sun came up,

(39:11):
everything that there was no baby there, so don't worry.
He did not like abandon a baby in the ravine
with with you know, taken. An investigation was conducted to
make sure that there was nothing there. But the point
was he felt that something was trying to lure him
over to.

Speaker 2 (39:31):
That ravine, which sounds something which sounds I interviewed, So,
I'm working on a project. I've been working on it
for several years, and I recently recently. I when I
say that, well, in fact, I when I say that,
I mean recently, like a couple of years. I interviewed

(39:54):
a guy named Bill Russo who had an encounter with
a puckwadgie that you know, you had brought it that
up earlier and again this thing. He was on a
walk with his dog at at you know, dawn or
not don dusk, when the night was settling or the
night was beginning, and this thing tried to lure him

(40:17):
into the woods, and it was like cute, and it
was little, and it had this like really like high pitch,
like cute voice that was trying to lure him into
the woods. And luckily his dog was there and was
on a very high alert. Or he said, he probably
would have been curious if his dog wasn't there and
freaking out. He probably would have been curious enough to

(40:39):
be like, wait, what is that? Like, yeah, so you
gotta like you get and that and that brings me up.
It brings me to my next point, because I want
to end with the Phoenix lights because I want to
know you guys are in Arizona. I really want to
know what your experience was like living in the time
of the Phoenix and what that was like. I know

(41:02):
you guys do a lot of uh speaking at you know,
I think I think they hold a annual conference about
it or at least a thing, uh a dedication to it.
So before that, as a law enforcement officer, you know,
I I the kidnapping is obviously a very this is

(41:25):
a severe charge, right that is not that's not investigation
that that that normally tasked with human on human kidnapping
that you don't take super seriously, these abduction stories that
that when you do hear them, what's your take on that?
You know, what's do you think it's happening? And and

(41:47):
and is there a difference between indifference and malevolency or
or in this case?

Speaker 4 (41:56):
Okay, so so I'm gonna tell you my take it
is probably a little different than what most people would think.
From a police officer. My take on it is this,
something happened to that person, and they suffer some sort
of trauma, and they are entitled to an investigation. They

(42:19):
are entitled to feel safe in their house or safe
wherever they are, and it is not our job as
police officers to judge what happened to them. Our job
is to gather the facts and try and make these
people feel as safe as possible. So when you get
a case like that, you have to take it seriously
because it could very well be that it's nothing extraterrestrial

(42:44):
at all, and it could be somebody pretending. We've had
cases and move on of people pretending to be alien
entities to abduct people or to harass people or stuff
like that, and we end up finding out that it
has nothing to do with it. They're just trying to
do it because they want to make the person seem
that they're crazy or try and destroy their family life

(43:06):
or stuff like that. So any type of investigation like that,
any type of thing that comes forward where somebody says
to a police officer, I think this happened to me.
It is our job and it is our duty in it,
and we owe it to them to a take it
seriously and be do a complete and thorough investigation because
you never know where that investigation could lead.

Speaker 3 (43:29):
One of the investigations we did together, and that's one
thing we always say is when you do an investigation
with moufan, you always bring two people, one to actually
do the interview, the other one to observe the body
language of that person you're interviewing. Also, if there's someone
else in the house, that second person might go off

(43:50):
with that of family member or friend that's in the
house and talk to them. Case in point on that
is it was my case. I was talking to this
gal about she believed she was abducted and she lost time.
She was walking on a canal bank and early early

(44:11):
in the morning before it was daylight, and she would
be walking on the canal bank. Next thing, you know,
people that are also walking on waking her up. Hey
are you okay? You're okay?

Speaker 4 (44:21):
And she believes.

Speaker 3 (44:21):
She's you know, lost time and probably was abducted. So
I started interviewing her. While I'm interviewing her and our
chief investigator was getting all the lights put together. In
the audio, Dave was talking to a I believe it
was a sister in another room, And so Dave's asking

(44:42):
about my galp you know, any health issues, anything out
of the ordinary, and just having a conversation. Well, the
sister started telling Dave that her sisters here has seizures.
If any lights start flickering anything else, she could have
a seizure just right right away. So I didn't know

(45:05):
about that at first. So I says, okay, great, So
Dave is getting good information. I'm talking to the gal
that believes she was abducted and lost time. And one
of the questions we asked, are you taking any medication?
Do you have any medical history of any health issues
that you might have? And I don't go specific, And

(45:27):
that's one thing about police work. You've you asked open
ended questions. You don't ask yes or no, like, are
you do you have seizures? Well that could be yes
or no, say no, do you have any health issues?
Let them tell you. So that's one thing you do
is the open ended questions. So I was asking her that, no,

(45:47):
have no health issues, not taking any medication, Everything's fine,
no problem. I had missing time. I believe I was abducted. Okay, fine,
you know great, So I understand that. You know, we
took all the information down. We took where on the
location of where this occurred with her on the canal bank.

(46:08):
So we got all that information. So finished again, like
we say, we questioned people. We don't interrogate because Dave
already knew that she had health issues, but of course
I didn't. And but he didn't go and start talking
to her and interrogating her saying, well, wait a minute,
don't you have this At some point, you know, she

(46:29):
believes in her mind that she was abducted and.

Speaker 2 (46:33):
You're not there to tell her what she doesn't doesn't
feel right.

Speaker 4 (46:37):
And she did provide a hand drawn picture of what
it looked like. She had a picture. You could see
the canal bank, you could see where the UFO was,
and from what she described, she had drawn something.

Speaker 3 (46:50):
For us, right, So after our interview, we go out
to that location on the canal bank and find the
area where she said she was abducted. And what we
found is there is a tennis court right on the
side of this canal bank and the lights to the

(47:11):
tennis court are those type of yeah, sodium lights that
when they yet, when they're getting when they're starting out
to die, they do the flickering and then flicker. So
what we believe happened the time of day where she
was located and everything that happened is that those lights,

(47:32):
she noticed those lights doing the flickering, and that is
what the sister said will cause the sizars a flickering
type of light, and that's what was happening.

Speaker 4 (47:43):
And so when we held up the picture that she drew,
you can see the canal. We're literally standing on the
canal bank and right where the UFO was is where
that light is sticking up out of the tennis court.
So if it was flickering, it is exactly where she said.

Speaker 2 (48:04):
So that's a very good example of like how to
investigate and what happens like this is that is a
good example of like, hey, not everything is as it seems,
but also not everything is spectacular.

Speaker 3 (48:18):
Yeah, but it's what you can't call somebody a liar.
You just got to do a good investigation. Were they
abducted Travis or could it be like this.

Speaker 4 (48:29):
Goal But at the end of the day, the way
we found that out was by doing a complete investigation.
You can't just shut them down and say, oh, well,
that's ridiculous. It didn't happen because we ended up finding
out that she ended up having a seizure and she
needed to really go get medical attention.

Speaker 2 (48:46):
Yeah, yeah, actually, yeah, I mean that's also very true.
And that's what I give. I give law enforcement credit
and first responders credit because not only are you doing
the job, whether it's being a you know, a police officer, firefighter,
especially police officer, I think you end up becoming like

(49:08):
almost like a you have to do like mental like
like you have to kind of be able to be
not a shrink, but you have to be able to
to like hear people out and let them speak their
truth and let them get it all out. And it's
you know, maybe that's cathartic in itself for someone is

(49:30):
we call.

Speaker 4 (49:31):
It the human condition.

Speaker 2 (49:33):
Understanding the human condition right, right, And so with that,
with that being said, you know, if what do you
think is holding back true disclosure? Is it for all
the reasons we've talked about tonight so far? Is it

(49:53):
that it's so far beyond what we understand as to
be reality and it totally crack open people's reality like
they're they're belief systems and or do you think there's
some sort of cover up?

Speaker 3 (50:12):
No, but my this is my belief. Okay, you've got
all of these upologists, you've got all these scientists, you've
got all these people that think they know what science is.
Everybody has their own opinion of what disclosure is gonna be. Okay,

(50:33):
My analogy on that is you have a homicide police department,
You got a homicide, You got three detectives work in
this homicide. If all three detectives says, oh no, this
is what happened. Oh no, no, no, this is what happened.
Oh no, this is what happened, we'll never solve that homicide.
Those three guys and gals get together and they come

(50:53):
up with, Okay, this after a thorough investigation, this is
how the homicide occurred. Boom, this could be the suspect
everybody in the science world or the disclosure world saying,
you've got all these people that think they know the answer,
and they're backfiting each other. They're lying to each other. Oh,
you're not right. This is right, this is right, this

(51:14):
is right. And I have seen it at conferences, I
have seen it on news things that everybody knows until
we all get together as one and come up with,
hopefully a situation, solve this situation and come up with
an answer. But the only way we're going to do

(51:37):
that is if we all come together. And I don't
see that happening. Everybody thinks they.

Speaker 4 (51:44):
Know the answer.

Speaker 2 (51:45):
Yeah, everybody wants to be the Everybody wants to be
the quarterback that runs the ball into the end zone.
But they don't realize that we're playing a team.

Speaker 4 (51:53):
Sport is twofold about disclosure first and it sounds cheesy
as it can be. But Tommy Lee Jones and Will
Smith sitting on a parion, he saw it. Will Smith says, well,
why doesn't the government tell people people are smart? Tommy

(52:14):
Lee Jones says, no, a person is smart. People are panicky,
dangerous creatures, and you know it. And everybody who's a
first responder, especially a police officer, understands that statement on
people are dangerous, a person can be smart and in
all honesty, what Marianne said along with that is, I

(52:35):
personally think that's what the government wants, because if we
were to truly get full disclosure, do you guys understand
what that means? That means the government, which is arguably
the most powerful entity on the planet, has to admit
that there are things, entities, beings, racist, creatures, whatever you

(52:58):
want to call it, that have better technology, better abilities,
better weapons, and when it comes down to it, we
can do exactly nothing to stop them. No government is
going to admit that to its people because you have
just given any sway, any leeway, any power that you

(53:21):
have over the people that you are governing. You have
just flushed it down the toilet because you have just
admitted to them that the government is not the end
all be all. There is a group of people or entities, things,
whatever you want to call them, that can basically shut
it down, and I don't care what government is. No
government is going.

Speaker 2 (53:39):
To admit that, right because it's almost like, and I've
said this in other shows before, so it's kind of
funny that you're touching.

Speaker 4 (53:47):
On this.

Speaker 2 (53:49):
That it's there's like this social social agreement and it's
an unspoken agreement between at least in a democracy or
you know, whatever that looks like. These days, some argue
there's a a deal that the citizens make with the government.

(54:13):
You keep us safe, right, and and I can live
my good life and I pay my taxes. Right, that's
the deal. That's the deal. And and the minute the
government comes out and says we can't protect you fully
like you are not actually like the odds of something
happening to you, you being abducted or anything like you like,

(54:36):
they're they're they're small, but it's not impossible, just like
someone breaking into your house is I mean, it's the
chances are small, but the implication is very large in
this case. So I feel like that's what we're stump.
And you're right. I don't think any government, unless they're there,

(54:56):
their hand is forced by some sort of like like
they see something coming and they know, okay, we can
plot that trajectory. We have about three years to get
everybody at least up the speed. And I kind of
think that that might be what's happening. And that's why
since twenty seventeen, the shift has kind of occurred.

Speaker 4 (55:21):
Well that's why everybody says, a UFO landing on the
White House lawn, Yeah, because how do you hide that? Well, nowadays,
we got AI, we got all sorts of special effects
and stuff like that. But I almost think it's going
to take something that big to literally, like what you said,
force their hand.

Speaker 2 (55:37):
Yeah, and you guys a big, a huge case. I mean,
one of the biggest. In fact, I mean I know
it is is it's it's one of the most well known,
if not the most well known mass sighting a whole city,
not to mention the people in others states, bordering states

(56:02):
and states along these things. Supposed or alleged track which
I think was westward from Phoenix or is that? Am
I right? Northwest, northwest.

Speaker 4 (56:17):
Southeast? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (56:18):
Oh okay, I'm sorry, So I had it backwards. What
was it like to be in Arizona in nineteen ninety
seven when the Phoenix lights incident happens. I mean, we're
gonna well probably end here, and I'd love to have
you guys back on. We've already talked about that. You know,
we're two hours in and I could probably talk for

(56:40):
another I could asked questions for five hours, probably with
all the knowledge that you guys have, but set the
stage and and and what was it like during that time?
Because I mean, that's.

Speaker 3 (56:54):
Well, I can make it real easy. I was shift,
so I was fast to sleep when all this was happening.

Speaker 4 (57:03):
And I wasn't a cop yet I started in.

Speaker 2 (57:08):
Sorry, all right, never mind. So yeah, we'll end it there,
Gott And I'm just kidding.

Speaker 3 (57:14):
Now. There has been We did speak at the Phoenix
Lights I guess, not conference but.

Speaker 4 (57:25):
The Phoenix the annual event event.

Speaker 3 (57:28):
Yeah, we spoke last year and everything, But my biggest
thing is, like I said, I was fast asleep. I
went to briefing the next morning. Nobody ever talked about it.
That was really nothing. People really didn't talk about it

(57:48):
back then in nineteen ninety seven, thanks to the governor
knocking it down, you know, to flares. Everybody was talking
real quick. It was all flairs flares, so everybody just
kind of kept it like, oh okay, it was flares
and they just dropped the story.

Speaker 4 (58:03):
So yeah, So ironically, since we've started UAPPD, we have
gotten two officers, one from the Mason PD and one
from MCSO that were both working that date, and they
gave us their take of what they saw. But interestingly enough,
we ended up tracking down a firefighter because we also

(58:24):
work with firefighters and other first responders. He told us
that he was at a training that that night that
had happened with like seventy firefighters and police officers, and
he told us what they saw from their perspective because
they were up in Cave Creek. But here was the
thing that was interesting or in lightning, I should say,

(58:45):
in my world, exactly like what Mary Anne said. First responders,
nobody talked about it. This guy told us they're all
standing around doing a debriefing. They're in the dark. There
were helicopter pilots there that were all landed there doing
the debrief They see these lights coming from the northwest
heading passed, so they're watching it and he's like, initially
everybody was all captivated, like, what is this? What is

(59:08):
this thing flying? It's huge? What could it be? Is
it a group of things flying information or is it
one large thing? We couldn't figure it out. And the
thing that he said was interesting. He's like, at one
point somebody in the group says, Oh, it's probably military
and then everybody dropped it. And among law enforcement and
first responders, that is a trend. The moment you see

(59:32):
something that you can't explain, if somebody throws out, oh,
it's probably military, we never push it any further. And
that I'm you know, now that we're starting to realize
these sort of things. When we were all officers, we
didn't think really beyond that, like somebody says, it's military, okay.
But now that we're both retired, we're kind of like,

(59:52):
why did we always accept that answer? Right? Always just
default as soon as somebody with barer stars or st
I have said, oh, it's military, we just kind of
let it go. And this was the first time that
it really kind of came up from a different source
to me that during the interview when he said it,
I was like, man, why why is that? Why do

(01:00:14):
we just as soon as somebody in command says, oh,
it's military, we just let it.

Speaker 2 (01:00:19):
Go, right we we It's it's like a kind of
like our brains want to, yeah, just taken out on it, right.
It's like it's easier to just be like okay, And
and probably especially from a law enforcement you know, you
guys are trying the goal is to solve things, it's
not to leave them unresolved. So you know, if someone's

(01:00:40):
telling you it's solved, you know it's solved. Uh. And
I think that that that sometimes, you know, can lead
to issues, especially with certain other realms of law enforcement.
But you know, in terms of the Phoenix Lights, uh,
just looking at it as a as two police officers,

(01:01:02):
with the amount of evidence, and whether you want to
include Fife Simington flipping and now saying he did see it,
that's up to you. Uh. But do you think that
that case has enough at least evidences as far as
you know, witness testimony, video evidence, that and and then

(01:01:24):
the mock uh, the air Force trying to recreate the
event multiple times to know, to no avail, to not
even close. In fact, it was almost laughable. Is the
statement that I've been given multiple times that the people
in Phoenix were very upset that they weren't being taken

(01:01:45):
seriously and that something extraordinary happened and honestly might even
continue to happen. Uh. You know, it seems like doctor
Linktai has made a case that it didn't just end
on that it didn't happen on that one night and
it didn't end on that one night.

Speaker 3 (01:02:03):
Well, that's inting to say. That is because if you
talk to John Dover, the night before there were these
lights up in Loop, which is on the Navajo reservation
where he lives, where people were saying, here's lights, here's lights.
They all went outside, they all took out their lawn
chairs and they sat there and they watched the light show.

(01:02:25):
There were lights going all over in that area in Loop,
and they accepted it, you know, they're like, yeah, okay,
this happened, and it was interesting. It was the day
before the Phoenix lights, the thirteen, so that would have happened
on the March twelve. Phoenix's happened on March thirteen. Now
was there something?

Speaker 4 (01:02:45):
Yes, yes, I don't think anybody can argue that nothing happened.
Something happened. The question is was it military? Was it extraterrestrial?
Was it an in conmensional? The question is what is it?
I don't think any buddy can get away with saying, well,
nothing happened that night, or they can get away with
saying it was flares, like you said, the Flair thing.

(01:03:08):
In all, honestly, the Flair thing makes me think it
might have been more of a government thing, because why
would they the military be that quick to come up
with an excuse or or smoking mirrors, look over here,
look over here thing if they didn't know that something
was already happening. So part of me thinks, and I

(01:03:29):
don't know for sure, but part of me thinks it
might have been more of a military craft that they
were testing. But like I said, I don't know. I
don't have all the facts, but I just think one
thing makes me wonder.

Speaker 2 (01:03:44):
Yeah, I just think if it was military, the way
that that the operation was conducted was it was. I mean,
it was terrible. Yeah, you show, you showed. You shouldn't
show the entire city.

Speaker 4 (01:03:58):
But if you've got to second, let me throw something
out to.

Speaker 2 (01:04:02):
You, could be a psychological operation.

Speaker 4 (01:04:06):
Not even that. Prior to the Phoenix light sighting, there
was a scientist in the Las Vegas, Nevada area that
came up with a substance that looked like plexiglass, but
it basically refracted light and if he held it up,

(01:04:26):
you could get behind it and you would see beyond
where he is. Yeah, let me just throw this out
there again. I have no proof that this is real.
I have no proof that this is what happened. But
I'm just throwing it out. I'm the government, and I
just created a stealth dirigible. Because this substance, you can't
move fast. You have to move slow with it. So

(01:04:48):
I want to create a platform that can loiter, can
travel very slowly over an area, and will not be seen.
So I'm going to take this my craft, my dirigible,
my stealth blimp, whatever you want to call it, giant
wing shaped thing. I'm going to cover the entire bottom
of it with this substance. So what I'm standing on

(01:05:09):
the ground looking up, I don't see it. I see
the stars behind it. We have multiple witnesses that say
it's like you could see through it, but like it
was there, but you could see through it. We have
number of witnesses that have said that. So now I'm
the government. I want to test this. Where do I
test it? I need to test it over someplace. So

(01:05:29):
I'm going to pick a city that is in the
middle of pretty much nowhere where if I if it botches,
if it goes south, we can go north, southeast, or west.
It doesn't matter which direction we're going to get out
from that city. We happen to have an airport or
a military base in that city where we can have

(01:05:50):
jets station with flares. If things go south, we can
launch them, have them drop flares and claim it was
all a training acts incident or some thing like that. So,
like I said, it kind of makes sense, now, is
it the truth? I have no idea. Maybe it was
an alien craft, maybe it was interdimensional. I don't know,

(01:06:14):
but I look at that military thing and for some reason,
that keeps sticking in my craw about how they were
able to get jets up there so quick to drop flares,
and how they were so quick to kind of deny,
deny cover Fife Symington. Oh yeah, we're going to turn

(01:06:34):
it into a joke. And so again, like I said,
I don't know for sure. I wasn't a cop at
the time. I didn't see them. I was, I think,
asleep because I was working a weird shift at that time,
doing a job before I became an officer. But whenever
I hear the stories about that, for some reason, I
always remember seeing that it was on a TV special
about like Black Files, about this this Colymner or this substance,

(01:06:59):
and I'm like, you know, that kind of fits a
little bit. I don't know, just throwing it.

Speaker 2 (01:07:07):
Out there, I think, uh that the you know, I
just had Tim Phillips and he he was a part
of uh he was the acting director for ARROW for
a while. And you know, not to say that I
agree with him on anything or or in fact now
I don't agree with him on a lot of things.

(01:07:28):
But you know, the black triangles and the fiery orbs
are are are something that even ARROW like can't really explain.
They can't. They're not saying it's it's aliens or anything
like that, but they just they definitely can't explain it.
And the fiery orbs consistently being being seen, uh, whether

(01:07:52):
it's Malmstrom Air Force Base, whether it's my Not Air
Force Base, Vandenberg air Force Base, whether it's Warring Air
Force Base, Elvesworth air Force Base, you name it, laying
the air Force base so uh and Rendelsham. Then there's
the case in Russia or a modern day Ukraine former

(01:08:14):
Soviet Union that George Knapp the files he smuggled out
that at the nuclear site there where this fiery these
fiery red orbs are seen coming into our nuclear sites,
our most sensitive facilities and having the ability to tamper
with our nuclear weapons. I mean, if there's a bigger

(01:08:35):
national security implication or threat, if you're looking at it
from a military standpoint, that's it. And well, like what.

Speaker 4 (01:08:46):
You said, one of the things that we always talk
about during our presentations is do we know the answers
to these things? No? But is it only we don't
know the answers now? Who's to say what's going to happen?
So we like to give the example of if we
had a time machine and we went back in time
one hundred years and we had a cell phone and
showed it to somebody, it would be indistinguishable from magic.

(01:09:10):
And then if we took technology from one hundred years ago,
we jumped in and went back a hundred more years
and we showed both of those the cell phone and whatever,
that archaic thing that we look at that's ancient. Somebody
back then is going to look at both of them
exactly the same. It's magic. We can't understand it. Who's
to say, fifty to one hundred years from now, we

(01:09:33):
might figure out what these are and it might be
something that we look at at that point as technology
that right now we look at as paranormal, supernatural, something
unexplained that we don't believe outside of belief. But who's
to say one hundred years from now, we're not going
to look at it the way that we look at
cell phones right now. Every twelve year.

Speaker 2 (01:09:52):
Old has a cell phone, right and we're conditioned now
to if you see a twelve year old without an eyepass,
if you're like, what's wrong with that kid?

Speaker 4 (01:10:03):
Why does what?

Speaker 2 (01:10:04):
Why is he? Why is he paying attention at dinner?
What is that?

Speaker 4 (01:10:10):
Matter of time?

Speaker 2 (01:10:11):
It could be? And again, you know, I'd love to
have you guys back on. You guys have a I'll
put the link in the description below w w W
dot u A p dash p d dot com and
I have it right here as well. You guys. I
like the I love the logo. Yeah really because you

(01:10:33):
incorporated you know, right, the ufo, the ghostly figure and
the cryptid. He like the paranormal, cryptid and the other worldly.
It has everything.

Speaker 4 (01:10:45):
I love it.

Speaker 2 (01:10:45):
So what what what if you had to say if
there's one thing that listeners are get uh people watching,
if there's one the thing that you'd want to get
across about uh instigating and law enforcement and the unknown.
What would that be.

Speaker 3 (01:11:06):
Well, if what we tell people is that if you
are a law enforcement officer or a first responder and
you have seen something that you cannot explain, don't keep
it inside, don't think you're crazy, don't stress out. Please,
you have a place to go. Contact us content uap
dash ped dot com. We want you to understand that

(01:11:29):
you could either remain absolutely totally anonymous, you could identify yourself,
it doesn't matter. We just want you to understand there's
a safe zone that you can come tell us your stories,
and that you don't have to have that stress inside.
That's that's one thing that we're This job is stressed enough.
You don't need to have that hurting your health, hurting

(01:11:52):
your mental hurting your family life. We are here for you.
We want to help you out as best we can.

Speaker 2 (01:12:00):
It's beautiful. It's beautiful. So what you know is it
only law enforcement that you work with, or is are
there are there other ways that.

Speaker 4 (01:12:14):
You know?

Speaker 2 (01:12:15):
Could a military person contact you?

Speaker 4 (01:12:18):
Well, we we do. Any first responders is what we're
looking for, So firefighters, police officers, EMT emergency room technicians,
ambulance drivers, emergency room doctors, nurses, corrections parole probation. We
haven't really done anything with military, but if military police

(01:12:41):
they're on duty during it, or a firefighter for the
military wants to reach out to us, we kind of
are trying to stay with first responders because that's what
we won't really understand. But even if somebody just wants
to talk or has a story and they're not a
first responder, they can always contact us. We may not
be able to do an investigation, we may not be
able to take the story and use it as we're

(01:13:02):
using to try and encourage other first responders, but we're
still going to help people. We might be able to
direct them to a source, like if it's a UFO sighting,
we have a lot of contacts with Moufan and the IUFOB,
the International UFO Bureau. We have connections in with counselors,
trauma counselors. We have a lot of resources that even

(01:13:23):
if it's not a first responder, you just don't know
where to go right, we might be able to find
a paranormal investigator or some group that's in your area
that we might be able to contact and be like, hey,
we got this story. Can you reach out to these
people and help them, And that's ultimately what we want
to do is ultimately we're just trying to help people,
you know, encountering something like that. You shouldn't have to

(01:13:47):
go through it alone. It's a trauma and where we
want to help.

Speaker 2 (01:13:51):
Yeah. Absolutely, And I love that. I love that if
you guys could pick each one before you go on,
you don't have to go into the case. But what
is your favorite historical case, whether like you know, if
it's the Knimtz encounter, Roswell, what's your favorite case to
ponder over?

Speaker 3 (01:14:11):
Minus Val Johnson in Minnesota.

Speaker 2 (01:14:16):
That's a little that's a little obscure. Can you just
give me the give me the elevator one real quick?

Speaker 1 (01:14:21):
On that.

Speaker 3 (01:14:22):
He's driving down the road middle of the night. He's
on patrol. He's a sheriff's deputy, looks off to his left,
sees his white ball or something that's in the on
the roadway, kind of hovering. Thought it was a car accident,
could have been a plane crash. As he's driving toward it,
this light comes in through his windshield and hits him

(01:14:46):
in the chest. Like he said, it was like a
getting hit by a two hundred pounds pillow rest he
had fractured both his upper his job, his top teeth,
bottom teeth, His had burns are what they called arc
welder burns to his eyes.

Speaker 2 (01:15:06):
Wow, oh my god.

Speaker 3 (01:15:10):
I believe it was a Ford dealership and also not GE,
but maybe General Dynamics or whoever the big electronic companies
back then. What was that ninety seventy six, nineteen seventy six.
They can't figure out what hit the car. But what's

(01:15:33):
interesting is all of the damage on the cars on
the driver's side. It goes from the headlight to the windshield,
to the light bar of the lights up on the
bar red and blue lights, over to an antenna and
go straight back. If it was a rock, if it
was a bird, if it was any kind of object,

(01:15:54):
it would have hit the front of the car and
then just went off different directions. This went up and
over where it hit him and went over they matter
of fact, his patrol car is still in the museum.
I was just talking to Don Schmidt the other day.
That car is still in the museum in Minnesota, and

(01:16:19):
his cheek of police and everybody believed exactly what he said.

Speaker 4 (01:16:25):
Right there there you go.

Speaker 3 (01:16:27):
So I would love to ever get a chance to
meet this gentleman. But to me, there's so much evidence
there and I very much this has always been a
real interesting case for me.

Speaker 2 (01:16:40):
Wow, that is wild.

Speaker 4 (01:16:42):
I would say the case that really fascinates me is
probably even more obscure than Bell Johnson. And that's Jim
Blackwood from the Royal Canadian Mounted Police in Clarendon, Nova Scotia. Okay,
have you heard of that story Royal Canadium. A police
officer gets called to a bay Clarington, Nova Scotia. There's

(01:17:04):
a bay and there is a craft hovering like five
hundred feet over the water. He's there with like twelve
other eyewitnesses. They describe it as a silver craft. It's
got lights on it. He literally takes his flashlight, lights
it up and it flashes lights back. It ends up
rising up. After about I think twenty minutes are watching it,

(01:17:25):
it rises up and then just takes off. They check
with the Air Force, everything like that. There's nothing on radar.
They have no idea what it was like. I said,
he had dozens of witnesses on the shore that saw
this thing. But the reason why it sticks out to
me for two reasons. First of all, the local hockey
team renamed their team the UFOs, which I thought was awesome,

(01:17:45):
but then no way. The second thing was his supervisors
made him talk to the media and you can find
the video clips of his interview online talking about out
what he saw. And one of the reasons that we
got into UAPPD was what is the ramifications of being

(01:18:07):
too honest? When nobody ever talks to Lock talk to
Annie Zamora after what happened to him after the sighting.
Nobody ever talked to Veil Johnson what happened to him
after the siding. Nobody ever talked to this guy after
the sighting. He was actually asked. He was the only
one I know that was actually asked afterwards about it,
and he says, I had to talk because this my

(01:18:29):
supervisors made me. But it was the worst mistake I
ever made for my career because all of these officers,
their careers go downhill in a big way after these sightings.

Speaker 2 (01:18:40):
Right, Lonnie actually, you know, famously left the police department
because he didn't want his baggage attached. And that goes
back to what we were talking about earlier, is like
you know, a brother in arms and you know, not
taking everyone else down.

Speaker 4 (01:18:57):
Yeah, and that's that's exactly what happened to this guy.
He's like, it was the worst mistake I ever made.

Speaker 2 (01:19:03):
It's so sad. So if you're if you are a
large law enforcement officer or a first responder, definitely reach
out if you've seen something. And uh yeah, I mean,
I thank you guys so much for what you do
and I have so much respect for it. And I
can't wait to uh come out there to Arizona and

(01:19:24):
experience Arizona's got this weird Sedona Phoenix. I mean, what's
out the air, what's out in the era? You know,
you guys don't do daylight savings? Yeah, what's wrong with
you guys?

Speaker 4 (01:19:39):
Oah, I'll tell you what. You come out here to
visit sometime. Obviously, you got a place to see here
with Marianne. I'm offering her house again. We will take
you to a bunch of different places. We won't take
you to the Mission.

Speaker 2 (01:19:51):
The Mission, Yeah, yeah, I don't. I don't think I
want to go there.

Speaker 4 (01:19:54):
We got some other places that we could take you
where there's some pretty interesting stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:20:00):
Yeah, I just I really really want to. It's one
of the states that I think i've driven through. But
I didn't like. We didn't even drive through it long
enough for it to be memorable. So on one of
one of the trips back, but I I've always wanted
to see I've always wanted to be. Oh no, I did,
so I stopped. Ironically, my layover in for contact was Phoenix,

(01:20:26):
but I was on the in the airport, so that
was the closest I ever got. So, yeah, you need to.

Speaker 4 (01:20:34):
Come out here and spend some time. We can take
into some pretty interesting places.

Speaker 2 (01:20:38):
Hell yeah, so yeah, U a p P d uh
u a P dash PD dot com. Uh, thank you
for everyone for tuning in. Uh and we'll see you
on the other side.

Speaker 1 (01:21:00):
An A

Speaker 4 (01:21:27):
Type A tepid