UFO Researcher Philip Mantle drops GROUNDBREAKING New Evidence in 1973 Pascagoula Alien Abduction Case

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
D A.

Speaker 2 (00:35):
I occasionally think how quickly our difference is worldwide would
vanish if we were facing an alien threat from outside
this work. And yet I asked you, it's not an
alien force already amongst.

Speaker 3 (00:46):
We must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether
sought or unsold by the military, industrial conduct potential or
the disastrous rise or misplaced power exists and will persist.

Speaker 4 (01:18):
Now I am become death drawer of world.

Speaker 3 (01:21):
In my association with Project Group, they definitely withheld information.

Speaker 4 (01:31):
Have a look on the essay.

Speaker 1 (01:33):
We're all going against the way.

Speaker 4 (01:36):
You shall be twayer. We're firm the destiny. You're about
to give us the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
the truth. So help you God. Do you believe that
our government is in possession of the ages? Absolutely?

Speaker 1 (01:54):
All right, Welcome back to total disclosure, UFOs cover ups
and conses, where the search for truth knows no limits.
I'm your host, Ty Roberts, and tonight we'd go deep
into a case that I think shattered everything we thought
we knew about alien contact. In nineteen seventy three, two

(02:16):
men from Mississippi, Calvin Parker and Charles Hickson, reported being
taken a boortocraft by entities unlike anything ever seen before.
Skeptics scoffed, authorities doubted, but the evidence never waned. It
never went away. Decades later, with hypnotic regression polygraphs, multiple

(02:39):
corroborating witnesses, and one man who was determined to seek
out the truth, the Pasca Gula incident stands as one
of the most credible, most investigated, and most unsettling alien
abductions in history. Tonight or today, we're joined by the
man who has done more than anyone other than Calvin

(03:02):
Parker and Charles Hickson themselves to bring the full story
to light. My one of my best friends in this
UFO field, and I think a man who's morals are unwavering.
Philip Mantle, veteran researcher, publisher, and co author of Beyond
a Reasonable Doubt UH with doctor Irena Scott, which I

(03:24):
have right here, the definitive investigation into this case. Buckle up, everyone,
because of what you're abody here could redefine your perception
of what is real. Welcome back, man, Welcome back. Oh

(03:46):
my god, it's been so long, Phil.

Speaker 4 (03:48):
Yeah, good evening, Tyler, and let's just speak to you again.

Speaker 1 (03:52):
It's for anyone who doesn't know, I'd say, what for
the past six seven months, you've been, you know, kind
of taking a step back for medical reasons. So I
just I want to say thank you for doing this
and thank you for everything you've done for the community.

(04:12):
And it's it's really good to see you up and
about my friend.

Speaker 4 (04:17):
Yeah, my pleasure. It's great to be here.

Speaker 5 (04:20):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (04:20):
I can assure you.

Speaker 1 (04:23):
Better than laying on the couch just watching the world
go by, and.

Speaker 4 (04:28):
That lying in the hospital bed.

Speaker 1 (04:31):
Yeah, I would go so stir crazy, like within the
first couple of minutes, I would be like, no, this
I can't. I'd start doing live shows from the hospital.
I give you better.

Speaker 4 (04:40):
I mean, you know, it wasn't a pleasant I've been
in hospital before, but what's December. I was in hospital
for ten days and I wasn't well at all. But
one good thing apart from me getting out hospital, came about.
I'll just tell you the little story so then we
else's you know, hospitalized. It can be positives from it.

(05:04):
Where I live in the County of West Yorkshire in England.
I live in a little town called Pontifact. It has
a famous house that's supposedly haunted. There's been lots of
documentaries about it. People keep going there and things like that.
Now that the house originally is what we call a
council house. It was owned by the town and you,

(05:28):
you know, you rented it out and lived there. Just
so happens. In the same hospital ward as me, was
a guy called Bill. It was one hundred years of
age and he was the first ever resident of that
particular haunted house. Now, so, yeah, it was built and

(05:50):
him and his wife moved in. And Bill had spent
a long time in the military. It was at d
Day for example. Once his military time was already became
a fireman, so he worked long hours, you know. And
he said, most of the time I would be away
from home because I'm working night shift or whatever. And

(06:14):
he said the house was brand new, nobody had lived there.
So he put wallpaper on the walls, and the next
morning when he got up, all the way wallpaper is
on the floor, and he says, I know how to wallpaper.
I've done it a thousand times. And then his wife
kept complaining to him that he was moving things in

(06:36):
the house, and he said, I couldn't possibly have moved
it because I was at work, you know, I was
a fireman out in the fire department. They only staying
in the house for eight weeks and he came home
one one weekend and his wife says, don't worry about it.
I've sorted it. We're moving. She planned the move while

(06:59):
he was at work. So he was the first ever
resident of this haunted house. And it was one hundred
years of age Bill, you know, And I just found
that out by you know, there's only eight of us
on this little ward. We're all chatting about things, you know,
got no TV or anything like that. And Bill told
us the story about that, so that was the same. Yeah.

(07:25):
He also told wartime adventures and d Day and playing
football and being in the fire department and you know,
and I just so happened that, you know, this came
up in conversation and he told me the story.

Speaker 1 (07:40):
Do you And you're pretty I mean, you're kind of
like me where you're very You're not like you don't
believe everything that everyone says just because they say it.
So what's your what was your sense about it? Like,
did you believe that?

Speaker 3 (07:56):
Well?

Speaker 4 (07:56):
I asked, I asked him. I said, you know, I
know what I know the house. I know where it
is because this is only a small town, Tyler, right,
And I said, did these things really happen? Bill? He
said yeah, And he said my wife couldn't get out
of there quick enough. We only stayed in the house
for eight weeks. And he said she organized the move

(08:19):
without me knowing. I came home from work and she said,
we're going. And that was it, you know, you know,
because you know, there was only eight of us in
this ward with no TV. So you're lying there all day,
board stiff. So on an evening when when it cat

(08:40):
were quiet and down a bit, we would start and
have a chat and talk about you know, football and
rugby that they used to play. Bill was one hundred
years of age, you know, and it was one hundred
and one in January. I hope he got there because
I thankfully I was out of there before his birthday
came up. You know. It was a fascinating man in himself, Tyler.

(09:04):
But what what I'm doing emphasizes this. She's kind of
what the pastor Gooler case has been all about. We've
been asking the questions, you know, and putting me putting,
putting the information out there and getting feedback sometimes completely
out of the blue, a lot of times with help
from our colleagues and witnesses and so and this was

(09:28):
like that. But in you know, in a little hospital
water it was just chatting to the fella on an evening,
you know, to pass the time. So it shows my mum,
God rest her shows us to have a saying tyler.
She said, you'll never get lost so long as you
have a tongue in your head. In other words, you
can always ask your way home. So you always as

(09:50):
always be nice, always talk to people, and when it
comes to this subject and individual cases, do exactly the same.
Just ask the questions and see what happens.

Speaker 1 (10:01):
Right And and you know, pretty if you ask the
right questions, you know it's it's not it's if you're
asking the right questions, you'll be able to see through
the bullshitters. I mean, there are people that are just
like super talented liars. I mean, we we know, I

(10:23):
won't name names, but we definitely know some people that
know how to talk the talk, uh and get you
to believe what they're saying. And but most people, if
you're asking the right questions, they're gonna slip up they're
gonna the details aren't going to be right, they're gonna change.
And you've always been really good about I want to

(10:44):
start off before we get into pasta goula. Uh, there's
such the anniversary just came up for it, which is
why I even bring it up. But the the alien
autopsy hoax just had the anniversary. You were like a
pit bull chasing chasing a mailman with this thing, and

(11:05):
you got to the bottom of it. Can you for
anyone who doesn't know, can you explain what the alien
autopsy was? What you did?

Speaker 4 (11:16):
Ustry is actually this August August twenty seventh as well. Yeah,
in nineteen ninety five. It was shown around the world
on August twenty seventh. What happened was Silo Back in
nineteen ninety three, Iborn, Yeah, among other things. I was

(11:37):
press officer for the British UFO Research Association and there
was no email in those days. It was still paper.
And I got a letter one day from a company
in London called the Marlin Group, just asking if we
could help make a documentary. And I wrote back, sent

(11:58):
them some information and they come back to me and
what they were looking for was to license film video
you know, photographs. We didn't have material that we could license,
but I knew companies that did. I put them in
touch and the guy who run the company was a
gentleman called Race Antilly, and we started talking about, you know,

(12:23):
in general, about his documentary, and then out of the
blue he said, oh, I've actually got film footage of
the aliens being dissected at Roswell. He didn't call it
Roswell to begin with tality, called it rose Well. And

(12:44):
I said, well that's great, you know, show me, simple thing.
If anybody, if anybody makes that kind of you know,
if anybody claims they've got something or have seen something,
was that fine? Show me And he said, yes, I can't. No,
I can't, Yes, I can no. Camp The same year

(13:06):
was the release of the movie Firing the Sky Tells
the Travis Walton Story. Now. I was hired by the
PR Company to help promote the movie, and one of
the things I did I hosted Travis Walton and Mike
Rodgers in a presentation they gave in London one evening,

(13:26):
and then we had a press conference afterwards, and I
invited to raise Santillion because his officers were in London
and they weren't actually far from where we were having
this event, and I met him and then he told
me about, oh, you know, I was in America looking
for old film footage of Elvis and Pat Boone and
that kind of stuff, and I bought some off an

(13:48):
old boy, and he came back to me and said
he'd been in the military and he had some film
of Roswell. Was I interested? And he claimed he and
he bought it so again, and I said, fine, you know,
show me right. So this went on and we weren't
getting anywhere, and well, yeah, if anybody makes a claim,

(14:12):
I've got pictures, I've got documentabile the simple thing, then
show me. Anyway, we move forward to nineteen ninety five
and the movie Roswell was being released here by Sony
on video that was made by Paul David and they'd

(14:33):
actually sent us a copy for review. So and it
prompted me to think about this guy Santilli again. So
I had his phone number. I phoned him mob and
I said, have you still got that that film? You
claim to have the Roswell film? He says yes, but
you don't believe me, Philip, so I said, show me.
So he said okay, make an appointment with my secretary

(15:00):
on down. I lived two hundred miles north of London.
Nothing for an American isn't two hundred miles. I know that,
but here it's a long way. So my wife and
I drove down to meet Race antille Is at his
office and he popped a video in the machine and
there was a piece of grainy film with a creature

(15:20):
on a slab and two men in white coats. He
called it the tent footage. He said these were where
the aliens were put into a field tent before being
shipped away. So I thought break Not only that, Tyler.
He gave me a copy. He gave me a copy.
I had a copy on VHS. I took it home

(15:41):
with me and then we made an appointment. He says,
I've got some more being processed. So in the coming weeks,
my wife and I gave drove down to London. Eventually
we saw two other autopsies. He just showed her a
still of one of them. There is another autopsy film
where the creature isn't damaged, you know, its legs are intact.

(16:03):
It's a bit brighter. And then he showed us some wreckage.
So I said to Ray Santilly, what do you intend
to do with this film? And he said, I'm going
to make my own documentary and We're going to release
it on video, right, and you'll buy it from me
or you buy it in your local video store. You know. Now,

(16:24):
I was just thinking on my feet. I thought, this
film needs to get out into the open. That way
we'll find out more about it. I was also puing
for as conference organizer, so that year, in nineteen ninety five,
I already had a conference all set up for August
in the city of Sheffield in South Yorkshire. So I

(16:47):
just said to the Ray Santilli, will you show the
film at our conference? And he said yeah. There was
no contract, there was no money involved with Shook Hands,
just a jaman. Yeah. Yeah. And just by Luke the
story got out. I let slip to a journalist about
the film and it just went bananas. Titler. I mean,

(17:12):
this was you won't remember because you said it's the
year you were born.

Speaker 5 (17:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (17:18):
The X Files was at its height, Yeah, absolutely, Roswell.
The anniversary was coming up in a couple of years,
so there was also rumblings about that, and you know,
I literally got factors and phone calls from TV companies
around the world, and I just put them in touch
with Sam Tilley. He had a private screening on May

(17:41):
the fifth, nineteen ninety five, at a venue in London,
and that's when a lot of the journalists made arrangements
with him, including Bob Kiveer in the States. And it
was Bob who did the Fox documentary Alien Autopsy fact
or Fiction, which was so successful they had to do
three specials to follow it up.

Speaker 1 (18:02):
Right, because the demand was so and people forget people.
I just I don't mean to cut you off, Phil,
but for anyone who doesn't remember or it doesn't isn't
realizing this is before the internet's the Internet. This is
before the world was connected the way it was connected

(18:23):
connected today. So for the demand to be so high
on this, I mean, your your the networks were just
raking it in at this point.

Speaker 4 (18:33):
Yeah, I mean, I mean Ray came to our conference,
showed the film. I mean, we could have sold the
tickets for it, you know, ten times over. I'll give
you an example. I think it was the day before
I had a phone call from a lady wanting a ticket,
and I said, and she was in Washington, DC, and

(18:55):
she said, I'm coming anyway, and I said, what's your name?
So she gave me. You know, I took her name.
My wife was on the door taking the tickets, and
I said, if this lady turns up, please find a
re seat because I admire her courage. You know, coming
all that way right right, you don't guarantee even getting through.

(19:17):
And Tyler, she turned up and we had a couple
of seats at the back where some of our stewards
were set, and I just asked one of them to
stand up and sat down. And we had film crews
from around the world, even even Chinese TV company turned up.
And the following day the film was actually broadcasting around

(19:40):
the world, so we were the first to see it
in public, but it went on and all the places
around the world. And I'm sat there thinking, great, my
planners worked. We've got it out. We couldn't have been
couldn't have got more coverage for it. And I'm thinking
the answers will will start to come in, you know,

(20:01):
but nothing, absolutely nothing, nothing came in. I'm thinking somebody's
going to come forward and say that's me. I'm an actor,
or maybe that's my grandfather told me about this film.

Speaker 1 (20:17):
Or right right, someone in the production or behind it
is going to say, wait, guys, you're taking.

Speaker 4 (20:25):
Yeah, but nothing, absolutely nothing. So I had to make
a decision what to do. You know, all the people
saying it's a hoax, that's an easy thing to do.
What happened was there was one guy. He accused me
of being raised until his accomplice, so he actually accuse
me of helping fake it and rake the money in accordingly,

(20:49):
and the way he came to that conclusion at the time,
my wife and I had a growing family and we
were building an extension on.

Speaker 1 (20:58):
Our house, and he said, you're using the money.

Speaker 4 (21:01):
Yeah, yeah, where does he get the money from? He
doesn't have it. Well, I don't know how he knew
that in the first place, but it was right. I
didn't have it, but my wife did. She'd had her
own property before we met, and she'd solved that and
we used some of that to build the extension.

Speaker 1 (21:18):
Which is none of his fuck business in the first place.

Speaker 4 (21:22):
But he accused me of being an accomplice, so it
became personal. So I was determined to get to the
bottom of it, no matter what I told Santillie this
and he just said, okay, Philip. You know, he didn't
bat an eyelid. And so, like I said, I had
to make a decision. So what I did, rightly or
wrongly in public or in private with Ray Antilley, I

(21:46):
supported him. And you know, in the meantime, I'm still
digging around in the background to try and find out
what happened. And it took a long time, Tyler, we
don't have time to go through all that. Bit by bit.
I'd find a little bit of information that would lead

(22:06):
to something else. Then we'd maybe reach a dead end
and then we'd look elsewhere. What I used to say
to myself was that every now and again I would
shape the alien autopsy treat you see if anything fell
out of it, you know. And it took, you know,
a lot of years, but eventually we found the man
who faked it is a gentleman called Spiros Malaris. Spiros

(22:31):
is a filmmaker. It's a magician. He's an entrepreneur. He
had his own studio at one point. The man who
made the dummies was a sculptor. We've been looking for
a special effects expert, and it was a British sculpture
called John Humphreys.

Speaker 1 (22:49):
Yeah, so you're looking at the wrong place because you're
you look, you're looking visual effects and like CGI and
that thing.

Speaker 4 (22:56):
But it was practical, yeah, I mean the special effects
industry in Britain. He's not large and I started off
phone in special effects guys and they say it's not me.
Maybe ask so and so. So I go and speak
to the next guy. He had no idea and we
just never got anywhere. John Humphreys has worked in the
film business, film and television, but by profession he is

(23:20):
a sculptor, not a special effects artist. So IT'SOK, a
long time, but we got there, and you know, Race
Antilly changed his story, which is nothing new, you know.
And like I said in all yeah, it's the anniversary,
so I dare say Ray might have something up his sleeve.

(23:41):
I don't. I don't know. I haven't heard from him
in a while. But the point is style A lot
of people say, yes, hoax, that's easy. That's an easy
thing to do, you know, But to prove things out
of hopes, as I found with the earlier autopsy film,
was a lot more difficult.

Speaker 1 (24:03):
And that's I think. I think That's what I've always
respected about you, Phil is uh, you're not so. One
of the things that I think the community has a
really big issue with, and and it's it's being humble
and admitting when you were wrong and being saying I
made a mistake. But we're all fallible in that way.

(24:27):
We're all uh perceptib we're all susceptible to you know,
kind of like I want to believe you fall into
that in some way, some part of your brain, I mean,
I think must have filled when you first saw the film.
Something in your brain was like, this is either a

(24:48):
really really good fake or it might be actually the
real thing.

Speaker 4 (24:53):
Well, you know, the first piece of film I saw
hasn't really been on television. It's called the ten Footage,
and it's very dark.

Speaker 1 (25:01):
That's the one from the Darker One.

Speaker 4 (25:03):
Yeah, so it's very bad.

Speaker 1 (25:05):
That's real, but not well.

Speaker 4 (25:07):
It's not I know who made it. I've interviewed who made.

Speaker 1 (25:10):
It, but these guys right, well no, no.

Speaker 4 (25:14):
But so you've got a creature on a slab. It's
covered up. You can see the head and the hands
and the feet. The other side of it are a
couple of people in white coats, and they seem to
be handling some fleshy like material. There's a lamp hanging up,
and somebody walks in front of the camera every now
and again with the back towards them, and it's very

(25:38):
poor filmed, Tyler, but that's what I expected to see.
I was quite happy with that, and I at first thought,
that's it, you know, right, because it's supposedly been left
in somebody's basement for nearly fifty years.

Speaker 1 (25:53):
You know, right right then Race until he went on.

Speaker 4 (25:57):
To say, no, I've got more film, and then we
saw the you know, the the more graphic autopsy and
then the wreckage. Later on he even produced an interview
with the alleged cameraman and that was not surprisingly a
fake as well. So we got to the bottom of
all these different films, you know. And yeah, so I

(26:20):
just thought, well, one of the ideas I had at
the beginning when you when you sat in Race until
his office, which I had on many occasions. He never
made anything himself, Tyler. He was a guy who would
buy stuff, would license it. His main income was from.

Speaker 1 (26:36):
Music, so he was more like a producer more like that.

Speaker 4 (26:41):
Yeah, but he was a buyer and a seller and
licens stuff. For example, I mean his office one day
and he's got a shoe box and it's full of
photographs of the Beatles that he bought an auction and
they'd never been seen before anywhere, so you know, you know,
he owned them, so he could license them or sell
them or whatever. So I I of I wondered at

(27:03):
the beginning maybe somebody had pulled a fast one on him.
You know, he bought this stuff and then it turned
out not to be real, but it didn't really care
any way. That well, I'll go with it, and the
film took off. Titler like nobody expected. He had a

(27:24):
life of its own, and.

Speaker 1 (27:26):
That's going to be. That's kind of you know, as
a as a as someone who's in media, as someone
who's in that business, the business of getting being seen right.
That's the biggest thing in media is either being seen
or heard right. So when you start getting all this attention,

(27:46):
I mean, that's it's like having something going viral. Now,
it's the endorphin rush. It it's it's it's easy to
maybe sacrifice some of your moral code or morality and
you do things that you maybe normally wouldn't. You cross
lines you normally wouldn't so you can keep the party going.

Speaker 4 (28:10):
Yeah, I mean, I just wanted to get to the
bottom of it. Whichever way it was.

Speaker 1 (28:16):
Clearly invested interest in it, well, he.

Speaker 4 (28:19):
Told, he told, he made no no, no bones about it. Tyler.
He said, I want to commercialize the film. It's my film,
I own it. I'll do with it as I see
fake because I introduced, for example, Race Antilly just Stanton Freeman,
and they actually met in London, and Stanton then faxed

(28:40):
Ray a number of demands, not requests, a list of demands,
and Santilli said, oh is this man? You know that's
my film and I'll do with it as I please.
So I learned straight away, you know Santilli's character. And
had I gone down a similar roupe to Stanton, that

(29:04):
would have been the end of it. Talry, he would
have just not answered my phone calls anymore. And then
of course the internet started, not like it is today.
There was no Google or anything like that. But it
became the first ever uf UFO battle online with the
old green lettering and things like that, and you know,

(29:29):
it took off santily. It later on made a movie
just called Alien Autopsy and the only thing that is
really accurate in that movie is how the film takes
off and had a life of its own. And it
really did. And you know, Sam Tilly just went with it.

(29:49):
He had no idea what's gonna happen. I mean, none
of us did. And here we are, thirty years later,
still talking about the right.

Speaker 1 (29:57):
Right, right right, We just spent the first twenty minutes
talking about it. So I mean it's clearly kind of
taken on, you know, a life of its own, because
you know, they're And the reason I think that we
do need to bring it up in cases like right now,
like me and you talking, is because I mean that
footage is still circulating and people are for the first

(30:22):
time and then they're not. They don't do their due
diligence and check sources. No, they just go, oh wow
it that looks cool, that looks real, but they don't
know the whole backstory. So that's really col and.

Speaker 4 (30:36):
It's it's embedded in popular culture now as well. I mean,
not that long ago, you could buy an alien autopsy
cake in America for how for Halloween it was on
the Symptoms, it was on Seinfeld and various other bits
and beasts.

Speaker 1 (30:52):
It was like the original you know the mummies that
are going around, the Naska mummies, it's like the original
version of that.

Speaker 4 (31:02):
Yeah, well it's when it's when you saw the so
called Roswell slides on veiled in Mexico. When you look
at the backstory of how that came about, it's exactly
the same as the Alien Autopsy film. It's like the
views that as a blueprint for another Roswell fake, which
it was, of course. So if there's anybody out there
listening now and thinks that the Alien Autopsy film means

(31:24):
really in any way, shape or form, let me ensure
you it is not. I wish it was. I would
have loved it to being authentic, but it's not.

Speaker 1 (31:34):
And that's there you go, yeah, and there you go.
And so we're going to switch over to what, you know,
what I think the Crown Jewel something something that's totally
opposite in the sense of how it how it turns
out right, Because the longer you dive into Pascagoula, the

(31:56):
more sure and more I mean, the more of a
beyond a reasonable doubt something to quote your title here,
the more assured I've become that something crazy something happened
that night, and there's it's beyond a reasonable doubt what

(32:16):
happened might might not be exactly the same, right, we
might have some details off, but something extraordinary happened in
nineteen seventy three. So, in your own own words, Phil,
what makes the past Google incident so unique compared to
the thousands of other abduction claims throughout the years and

(32:39):
throughout that time even specifically, Yeah.

Speaker 4 (32:45):
We're going back to, of course, what's over the eleventh,
nineteen seventy three, and there was very few abduction cases
in the public domain at that point, and like then
as now, most cases are of a single individual, So
it's surely one person on known here we have two
and o Betty and Barney Hill, you know. Then there's

(33:08):
the location where the location were where they were fishing
on the Pascagoula River that night. Is not an out
of waste spot. Right opposite them as shipbuilding on the
river to the left and to the right there are
bridges going across the river, one for traffic I think
the other was for rail. Behind them is commercial and

(33:29):
residential properties. So it wasn't an out of the way location, no, not.
Then we add to that tyler within you know, no
no time at all of the incident happening. They're in
the Sheriff's department being an interviewed on tape. You know,

(33:51):
they were, They were recorded, and we have one of
those recordings, we have Charlie Hickson at Jackson County Sheriff's Department.
Then both were placed in a room by themselves, and
the deputy said, I'm just going to get some coffee.
And what they didn't know is they were being secretly recorded.
And the deputy came back, retrieved the recording out of

(34:13):
the desk in the room next to them, and him
and the sheriff played it back and thinking, right, we'll
catch them now. They're these two old boys were laughing
and joking at us, but of course they weren't. They
were crawling up the walls, especially Calvin. Calvin was only eighteen,
almost nineteen at the time, as Calvin on the right,

(34:34):
and Charlie Hickson was aged forty two, a veteran of
the Korean War. So combating career did did Charlie, and
they were both petrified. The next day they're at the
Singing River Hospital being checked out, and from there they
go to Keesler Air Force Base where they are checked
for radiation, which was zero. But then the powers that

(34:56):
be were I said, well, why you're here, guys, why
don't you tell us what happened? And they didn't have
a tape recorder, but what they had was a stenographer.
So we have a complete transcript of the interview there
as well. And so all that just at that point
in nineteen seventy three makes this case unique. But it

(35:19):
was what we uncovered, you know, many many years later,
that has solidified that uniqueness and has expanded the case.
It's not just Charlie and Calvin anymore. It's other individuals
in and around the area. And we've uncovered documentation, photographs, recording,

(35:42):
other audio recordings by the powers that be. Dr Heinek
and doctor James Harder were on site within two days
interviewing Charlie and Calvin and putting them both trying to
put them both on the hypnosis. We actually have Calvin
hypnosis eleven minutes long. It's very poor quality, but we
have it and with faxed the David Mahler that the

(36:04):
National UFO Records Century in Albuquerque. He was he give
me covered the APROL files a couple of years back,
and of course Dr Harder was part of April and
in there there are recordings from that time, but I
don't think anybody has ever heard them, and that their
recording is with Heinek, with Harder, with the sheriff, Sheriff

(36:28):
Fred Diamond and and we have all of those much
much more sins.

Speaker 1 (36:35):
I was just at contact in the desert and I
had the amazing opportunity and I'm going to have a
mire and studio pretty soon too. Paul Heinik, you know,
and I got the chance to talk to him. I'm
not going to give it away, give too much out
because there's something that I'm working on with it. But

(36:57):
in when I got to talk to Paul about it,
I asked him why or how, you know, how did
Project Blue Book pick choose and select the cases that
they would investigate. And I mean he went into the

(37:17):
to the whole story. But like you said, within a
day or two, his father ends up on the scene
and his father, this is probably one of the cases
that he says, his starts to turn his father's belief
from skeptic to holy shit, there's something really going on here,

(37:40):
because you know, in the media like, uh, South park
really did a disservice to the UFO subject when they
aired their first episode and had the anal probe stuff
in there. You know that was got taken from Whitley
Streeber and then you know Calvin and Calvin and Charles

(38:01):
get taken and that is that becomes whether people, whether
it's true or not, the stereotypical abduction case becomes, uh,
farmers or ranchers in the middle of nowhere fishing. They
get taken by a flying saucer, probed anally and then
brought back and you know their life is never the

(38:23):
same and you know, so this stereotypical abduction scenario is
kind of merged from Whitley Strieber and the Calvin Parker
Charles Hickson case and pop pop culture or you know,
the deep state, if that's who's really running things. They
make it out to be like nothing's I mean, this

(38:44):
is all just like you know, crazy people and mentally ill.
But al Jaalen Heydeck did didn't didn't think so.

Speaker 4 (38:55):
Yeah, I mean Calvin stayed friends with with doctor Heineg
and he later became friends with Paul because Calvin would
ring doctor Heinek at home and it was usually Paul
as a young boy that would answer the phone. And
they used to have a blackboard next to the phone,

(39:15):
and he would write messages on the blackboard. And you know,
so Calvin and Paul had it became friends in their
own right, many many years later, and Paul has gone
on the record saying that his father thought this was
a very solid case. And it would have been it
would have been even further impressed had he known about

(39:36):
what we've uncovered in this last couple of years.

Speaker 1 (39:38):
Oh no, God, I mean, oh my, if only we
could bring him back to show him what's been what's
been uncovered recently. And I mean, you've been coming up
with so so people know that the Charles Hickson in
Calvin Parker story. But is it Maria Blair, Yeah, I.

Speaker 4 (39:59):
Mean what happened was I got the rights to reprint,
republished Charlie Hickson's book Ufo Contact of Pasca Goula. It
came out in nineteen eighty three. Yeah, and you could
you could buy a copy online, but it cost you
a fortune because it didn't sell that many. And I
got the rights to it, and I you Charlie had

(40:23):
passed away in twenty eleven, and so I thought, I
don't know about Calvin. I couldn't find any obituary for him,
so I assumed he was alive. I managed to find
him and I spoke to him on the phone. He
was very nice, but clearly wasn't going to tell me
abowful lot. And unbeknownst to me, behind the scenes, just

(40:47):
a few weeks before I phoned him, Calvin had been
to a funeral a friend of his had died, and
as the coming out of the funeral home, he signed
the book of condolence and those coming behind him recognized
his name and they're doing the sort of pointing and
wink wink, you know. And Calvin thought that was, you know,

(41:08):
very disrespectful. But his wife, Wenat, who who was engaged
to him at the time when this happened, she said,
why you write a damn book and you tell everybody
your story. He still hasn't told his story in full.
So he mentioned this to me and I said, well,
I'll publish your book and he said, well, you know,

(41:29):
he says, every time I give an interview, the journalist
changes it. Well, I'll I'll adopt, I'll adapt my contract
and whereby I cannot publish anything until you say it's okay,
you give me the green light. And that's what we did.

Speaker 1 (41:47):
We wanted so he wanted spelling, his spelling errors in there,
medical errors and there. He wanted it exactly the way
he wrote it. That's a journal.

Speaker 4 (42:00):
Yeah, and it came out and it was pretty successful.
What happened was a local journalist by the name of
Karen Nelson came up to interview Calvin, and she, as
well as just writing an article about him, she did

(42:20):
like a little mini documentary, you know, about eight minutes long. Mate.
So when you viewed her article online, this little video
was embedded in it. Somebody took that tyler and put
it on YouTube. So I'm reading the comments underneath it,
and there's one comment and it says, my mom and

(42:42):
dad were on the opposite side of the river that night,
they too saw the UFO. So I thought, oh, hang
on minute. I found this young lady elsewhere on social media,
and I explained who I was and what we were doing,
and she said, I said, could we speak to your
mom and dad? She said, I asked them, and she

(43:04):
came back and said yes. And that was Maria and
Jerry Blair. I spoke to them first, and Maria told
me that Jerry at the time worked off shore. They
used to the company who worked for us to service
the oil rigs, and it was on side. She was
with him on the opposite side of the river that night.

(43:26):
There was a little boat there to take him out
to work, but the boss hadn't turned up. It was late,
so Jerry was trying to get us sleep in the
back of the car, and it's not in the best
of moods. Maria said, we saw this blue thing. Bearing
in mind Charlie and Calvin said that the UFO emitted
this intense blue light. She saw this blue thing come

(43:47):
down the river, not in the river, you know, And
she said it went opposite us, over the other bank
of the river and seemed to be either looking for
somebody or it was lost. Now she knew the areas,
you know. There was no airfield there, there's no helicopters,
you know. And then she said, we decided me and
her husband to walk down this pier and put his

(44:09):
clothes on the boat. And she says, as we're walking
down the pier, there's this huge splash in the water
next to me, out of the water. Then these are
her words, comes this gray man, and it came right
up to her face, literally right there. And then she

(44:29):
went back down into the water and was gone. And
Maria was quite emotional about this.

Speaker 1 (44:37):
And I asked them, as anyone should be.

Speaker 4 (44:40):
Yeah, and she said, I can see I've got impressions.
I can see something out of my peripheral vision. I
can't quite make it out what it is. And she said,
I often wondered if something similar hadn't happened to us,
that happened to Charlie and Kelvin. So her husband went
to She said it was about nine o'clock when this happened,

(45:03):
but she wasn't sure. They didn't have a watch. Once
she got back to the car, she led it. She
ran like, hell, it was twelve o'clock. So there's several
hours to.

Speaker 1 (45:13):
Account quite a bit of time.

Speaker 4 (45:15):
Yes, So Jerry came back home and said, don't tell anybody,
we'll think we're nuts. So they told their two daughters,
who are now grown up, that they've seen these blue lights,
but they didn't mention anything else. So Calvin's book comes out.
It does well. One of the local charities in the
area raised some money to have a historic marker near

(45:37):
the site, and that was officially opened by the mayor,
and Maria and Jerry Blair came along to the opening.
She was publicized locally and they were interviewed by the
local TV and again they just talked about these blue
lights they'd seen. They didn't mention the Gray Man on TV.
And then I'd passed Maria and Jerry's details onto my

(46:00):
colleague that Dr Irena Scott, I'd pubably served Irene's books previously,
and it was just easier for somebody in the States
to interview people there. And it was from this strange
shounding yorkshman from the other side of the Atlantic. So
Dr Scott took home from there. What happened was Jerry

(46:22):
took ill, seriously ill, and he was in hospital and
he was going to have an operation and wasn't sure
if he was going to make it. There's Irena, so
he said to Maria, phone, mister Mattle, and he literally
phoned me from his hospital bed. And Maria has a

(46:44):
recording of a video of it as well, saying, I lied,
I saw everything my wife saw, you know. And he
still got the stickers on his chest, his bare chest
not sitting on his hospital bed. Thankfully, he made it
through the operation, but it was only a stop gap,
but it was gonna it was going to pass.

Speaker 1 (47:04):
Away, yes, and and so something it was he in
his mind it could have gone really bad that day,
you know what I mean. So he was getting the
deathbed confession read essentially what happened.

Speaker 4 (47:20):
He then said to his wife, Maria, I got something
to tell you, and he said, we too were abducted.
And he told her that he told her the whole
story and what it is. Maria wasn't looking out of

(47:41):
a peripheral vision. She actually had her eyes her eyes
screwed up tightly closed, and she could look out of
the corner of her eye, and she looked up to
the other end of the pier, and two of these
creatures were there with her husband, and they were the
same creatures as Charlie and Calvin reported. And Jerry said,

(48:02):
I've got my eye on that one, as if one
of them was in charge or something of that nature.
And then they went back across the river. And you know,
Dr Scott is recording all this. Maria's telling Irene her
one way or another, and then sadly, you know, Jerry

(48:24):
did pass away, so we had all that information. We
made a documentary. But before that, Maria came back to
hers and said she'd like to undergo hypnosis. We declined
to begin with because we thought she's still grieving over
her husband, right.

Speaker 1 (48:43):
She came that will taint I mean you and you
just don't want to press that line.

Speaker 4 (48:50):
Well, yeah, So she came back again some sometime later
and we said, okay, I'll see what I can do.
So all I did, Tyler, was look at online at
some hypnotherapists in the area, and I just sent them
an email asking if they did regressive hypnoses. I didn't
tell them what I needed. And our lady stepped forward,
called Crystal, Crystal Slaughter, and she says, yeah, she says,

(49:13):
I'll even go to the client's home if it's If
it's better for them, they can come here back and
go there. So we arranged for Crystal to put Maria
under aggressive hypnoses and this was done at Calvin's house.
She'd become friends now with Calvin and his wife wen
At She knew Calvin had that hypnosis before, so he
was there, you know, And we didn't tell the hypnotherapist anything.

(49:38):
We just said time, location, that was it.

Speaker 1 (49:41):
Nothing about what they would be hearing.

Speaker 4 (49:43):
No, not what we didn't know we're going to hear anything.
So we just said the date, time and location. And
I had a local cameraman professional to film it, so
we had it on the record as well. And Maria
is very emotional on the hypnosis. There's big gaps between
question and answer. And I know that are those out

(50:07):
there that said hypnosis is not the way to do things.
They may be right, they may be wrong, but this
is what Maria wanted. This wasn't from us, and she,
to cut a long story short, she said these creatures
were interested in her eggs. They wanted to make beings
that look like us, but could walk amongst us unrecognized.

(50:27):
I mean, none of us were expecting any of that.
You should have seen the Hypnothrapis's face when Maria started
talking about this. Maria's opinion then went on to be
that they had been abductions. Firmly believed that abdocted by aliens,
and she believed that they'd had experiences before, but you know,

(50:49):
she couldn't remember any of it. And and then she
believed that her and Jerry were the actual targets that night,
not Charlie and Calvin, simply because the fact that they
were supposed to be at that location at that time,
and Charlie and Calvin only decided to go there that
day coming home from work, So they were like collateral

(51:12):
damage if you like, you know. That was her opinion.
We have no evidence of any of that. It's just
her opinion. Jumping forward in time, we did a documentary
and we missed out on interviewing Maria. So we have
a lady in the artic called Chelsea Chelsea Norton Prince.
It's part of the Ocean Springs Historical Society. She has

(51:36):
an interest in the case. She met Calvin bought his book.
So I asked Chelsea, I said, you have an iPhone?
He says, yeah, so could you film an interview with
Maria on your iPhone? It's not perfect and all that,
but it's better than nothing, Tyler. So right, we did that.
I sent some questions for Chelsea to ask Maria, and

(51:59):
Maria talked to Way. One of the questions I wanted
to clarify was when did you first meet Calvin Parker
Ben In mind, she'd gone to the opening of the
historical marker, and I believe that's when they in person met.

(52:20):
She came back and she said, I first saw Calvin
Parker when he was abducted. And she claimed she saw
what was happening on the other side of the river,
and she said, I thought it was men playing around
you and messing around doing stupid things. Then things started
to happen to them, So she take her eye off

(52:40):
what was going on on the other side.

Speaker 1 (52:42):
Of right, right right, She had her own. Yeah. So
are you saying that there is a possibility that Maria
saw Calvin and and Charles being abducted across the river.

Speaker 4 (52:58):
That's what she claims. Yes, Bear in mind her husband Jerry,
who wasn't the most talkative of men. You know, I
did speak to him. He did say, you know, I lied.
I saw the same as my wife. He called them
the humanoids. I saw the human EIDs go back out

(53:18):
across the water. So Jerry's deathbed confession wasn't an omen
eye thing. It took, you know, several months before he
passed away, but right to his dying breath, he was
still trying to tell his wife Maria what had happened
to them, and then Maria has since claimed that she'd
had other contacts with them on a psychological level, and

(53:41):
a sighting of one of the the UFOs, whatever you
want to call it, and.

Speaker 1 (53:47):
Well, we can't forget that that. Charles also, this is
even back in when the past school case was unfolding,
if you will, Charles said that he had another encounter
and so didn't Calvin ray.

Speaker 4 (54:04):
Yeah, what what it was with Charlie? He claimed that
he would hear voices, yes, from the from these beings,
although these beings at the time, these ugly things didn't
actually make a noise, but it was from the from them,
and Charlie became almost like a contact tee. These beings

(54:25):
were going to help mankind, were going to help humanity,
and he was going to be part of it. He
didn't know what the hell it was, just that he
was going to be part of it. He had another
sighting which was witnessed by all the family and they
were all in the same car. It was in daylight.
That's all in his book, of course. So Maria is

(54:46):
a similar nature. Yes, Calvin, again, this is what we
were talking about at the beginning of all this title
was asking the right people the right questions and asking
them in the right manner as well. Right via Peter Robbins,
who was assistant to Bod Hopkins for many years.

Speaker 1 (55:09):
Yeah, I just interviewed him at Contact.

Speaker 4 (55:11):
Yeah. Well, we found out that both Hopkins had actually
put both Charlie and Calvin under hypnosis, Charlie twice in
the nineteen eighties, a few years apart Calvin in nineteen
ninety three. Calvin had another encounter in nineteen ninety three
on his own again out in a little boat fishing,

(55:33):
and he told a friend of his and his friend said,
there's a guy called Hopkins doing a UFO conference in Florida.
They drove their unannounced to the hotel that was having
this convention. His friend went in. Calvin wouldn't go in
bound Bud, but says, here's my room, key, I'll meet

(55:55):
him there, And he met Calvin in his hotel room.
I knew Bud pretty well and put him on the hypnosis.
Not only that, he recorded it. So we have the
audio recording of that hypnosis session, and we also have
the two hypnosis sessions with Charlie Hickson and Bud Hopkins.

(56:18):
I said there a few years apart the two recordings
with Charlie. One talks about some encounters he had as
a young fella, a young boy, and then what happened
in nineteen seventy three similar you know, Calvin talked about
what happened, and then we had the opportunity in I

(56:38):
think it was twenty twenty two. Kathleen Marden, who is
a hypnotherapist, was in town, so we put Calvin on
the hypnosis then and we recorded it audio and Calvin
goes through what happened in ninety three seventy three, and
loan behold, he had two out as a young boy

(57:00):
as well, and he talks about them. So we've got
all you know this, more and more evidence has been accumulated,
but simply because we asked the right questions now. At
the time of their encounter in nineteen seventy three, Calvin
says Charlie was grabbed by two of these creatures and

(57:21):
they scratched his arm. Calvin claims while he was on
board that removed his lower clothing and his shoes and socks,
and they stuck something thing in his foot and it hurt.
So when I started to write the book with Calvin,
I asked him I said, do you have any photos

(57:43):
Calvin or documents anything. He says, no, it's lost all
of those in Hurricane Katrina. The house is on the
ten feet of water. So my job, well, he's writing,
I'm politely asking people, do you have anything on Pasca
go the first place I went towards the Center for
UFO Studies founded in nineteen seventy three by Dr Iyek. Yes,

(58:07):
they sent me a file. In the middle of this
file is a one page typewritten document. Titlet's written on
an old typewriter, stated October thirteenth, nineteen seventy three, so
it's two days after the event. It's one page, and
it basically describes Charlie and Calvin sipping down to their underwear,

(58:28):
I mean giving the one sober, and they found puncture
ones in Charlie Hixon's arm and Calvin Parker's foot burn
in mind these guys had said. Charlie said they scratched
his arm and Challenger had I stuck something in his foot?
He mentioned photographs, but there one oh photographs. So I

(58:49):
thought this document is great. I asked Calvin, who the
hell gave you the once sober? He said it was
it was Dr Harder. She wasn't a medical doctor, but
he had the aside just to look them over. About
a year eighteen months later, I had an email out
of the blue from the same gentleman the Center for

(59:09):
UFO Studies, says Philip, I've been rummaging through some files today.
I assume you've already got these. I wasn't looking for them,
but I found them, and here you go, Loan, Behold,
it's the photographs to go with this document. So you
have Charles Yes, so we have Charlie Hickson's forearm with
the marks in it, Calvin's foot. These are photographs. They're

(59:33):
not digital, but they were digitized obviously, so they were scowned.
Back in front and on the back is the person's names,
so we know which photo. So we have their testing
money saying we were scratched. Calvin said that stuck something
in my foot. We have this written document that's probably
my doctor, James Harder. And then we have two photographs

(59:54):
to go with it. So they're not they're not laser
guided incisions or anything like that title let's but they
are minor injuries that they do support the testimony of
these two guys.

Speaker 1 (01:00:08):
And and and then and let's step back a sec
is there any like you don't think that there's any
possibility that these guys set out. A lot of people
say that they were uh, that they were drinking, and
you know, maybe they can concocted this idea after the

(01:00:30):
fact to gain some notoriety. But I mean, that just
doesn't add up in my book, because.

Speaker 4 (01:00:36):
The first discussion they had when this had happened. Have
to remember Calvin was dumed to get married the following month.
He didn't live in the area. He lived in Laurel, Mississippi,
which is nearly two hundred miles away. I believe he'd
gone there to work.

Speaker 1 (01:00:50):
That he had just gotten that job too.

Speaker 4 (01:00:53):
That was his first day. He said, I got hired
and fired and abducted on the same So he didn't
he didn't know the area at all. And one of
the things he was worried about was his future father
in law finding out, and he said, he won't let
me marry Waynette. So the first discussion they had afterwards

(01:01:17):
was we're not going to tell anybody not a word.
So this they go to Charlie to Calvin's car, which
is by the way, he's a brand new Rambler hornet
wherever the hell one of them is. That's what he
was driving. It was bright yellow and the wind. The
passenger window facing the UFO was shattered. It fell out,

(01:01:41):
and then Calvin gets in the car. He said it
took him twenty attempts to start it and this was
a brand new car. So they set off with the
intention on going home. But then Charlie had a change
of heart. Remember Charlie was in the Army and fourteen career.
He says, We've got to tell somebody, what if this

(01:02:02):
thing comes back? Does this to somebody else? Right? What
if this is the start of an invasion? So they
pulling at a local store that's got a pay phone.
There's no mobile phones in nineteen seventy three. This is
a that's what they were driving, so.

Speaker 1 (01:02:19):
There was a brand new brand.

Speaker 4 (01:02:24):
So they first phone Keysler and Air Force Base. Keysler said,
Project bull Book is closed. We don't have anything to
do with UFOs. Phone phone your local authorities. So they
phoned the police. Just so happens that the guy who
took the phone call from them was Sheriff Diamond's son,

(01:02:47):
Mick Diamond. He was the police dispatcher on duty that night.
And he passed the call then through to the Jackson
County Sheriff's office. Now Mickey is still alive and we
communicated with him, and he said, Philip, I must have
had over fifty telephone reports of UFOs that night. And

(01:03:09):
it says not only that, when I logged off my
shift and went back to the station, there were people
there in person reporting it in person.

Speaker 1 (01:03:20):
And were were they all saying some?

Speaker 4 (01:03:26):
I mean, I'll give you an example, Tyler, give you
an example. He said. One of the fellows reporting something
in person was a minister, so as a member of
what we call the clergy. Right, So when Calvin's book
comes out, I was contacted by a guy in Greece.

(01:03:51):
We've since become good friends. It's called Stephanos and his
surname is Panageo Takis. Now Stephanos was a UFO researcher
and writer, and not in nineteen seventy three, but in
nineteen eighty one. He was in the Greek Merchant Navy.

(01:04:13):
He was a radio operator and they docked in Pasca Gula.
Now that was his favorite case. So they had a
week's lieover. So he set off to get an interview
with Charlie Hickson, which he did. He went to the
police station and explained what he was trying to do
with writing for a magazine back home, and they said, oh,

(01:04:35):
why don't you speak to pastor a clergyman, Pastor Emanuel Siegallas,
and here's his address. So Stephanos literally went and knocked
on his door. Just by coincidence, the pastor was in
and his family would have Greek collagin. Then you've got

(01:04:56):
a Greek guy standing on my doorstep. So Stephanos went in,
interviewed him, wrote this up, broke his story up, and
of course since then he's passed away, but he still
had a copy of his his interview. What the pastor
said was on that night of October the eleventh, nineteen

(01:05:17):
seventy three, him and another chat by the name of
Don broad Us, don't work for the Pascagoula Police Department.

Speaker 1 (01:05:29):
And credible witnesses.

Speaker 4 (01:05:31):
Then we have a young church volunteer, a young lady
in the back of the car. They're going to a
meeting that is run by the church for people who
had alcohol problems.

Speaker 1 (01:05:42):
Oh, the old AA meeting.

Speaker 4 (01:05:44):
Yeah. Now they're driving away and it's this young lady
who was looking out of the side window and she
points out this thing that's coming and it went right
all over the in front of him, right across the
road in front of them. They even drew a picture
for stephan Us. It looked pretty similar to what Charlie
and Calvin's said, and it was heading in that general direction. Now,

(01:06:10):
Pascor Cigalas has seems passed away, as the other gentleman
in the car Don brought us passed away. What about
this young lady in the back seat. Now, what I'm
saying is here we have a clergyman on the record,
and we have Mick Diamond going back to the police
station saying there's a there's a minister in there reporting it.

(01:06:31):
Are this the same guy? I can't imagine that minister's
report in UFOs that night. Anyway, we managed to find
the name of this lady in the back seat. She
she wasn't a native of the area. She gone to
work there for a couple of years. I think she
taught at the local school and helped out at the church.

(01:06:52):
But I found a couple of social media accounts for her.
We've got a name, but they hadn't been used in
a long time, and I left it. At one point, Tyler,
we couldn't seem to contact and for some reason a
while later, I went back to one of these accounts

(01:07:15):
and there was the name of a church on it.
So I just simply googled the church and it was
a church in Maryland, whatever the hell that is.

Speaker 1 (01:07:26):
That's yeah, a little celt about south of Massachusetts.

Speaker 4 (01:07:32):
I know that is right up. So the church also
had a website. So I'm looking on the website and
there was a couple of sermons that you could download,
and it told you who the sermons were. Now, this
lady was called Joe and Hallmark, and here we had
two sermons by two people called Hallmark, And I'm thinking,

(01:07:56):
is this her sons? Is it her husband? So I
sent the church a very non descript email saying, we're
looking to speak to Joann Hallmark. She worked with pastor
Cigalis back in nineteen seventury. Pastagal, if she's around your

(01:08:17):
pasta email on please, and that was it. Three or
four weeks later, she replied, So now I had to
tell her what we were all about. So I did,
and she came back to us again a few weeks later,
sent a fresh photograph of what she looks like now.
I'd sent the old black and white one of her,
which she found very amusing. She confirmed, She confirmed all

(01:08:41):
what she'd seen. Dr Irena Scott spoke to her on
the phone and interviewed her on the phone as well.
So that's how things have happened. You know, Pastor Goolu
eyes and was the pastor and the minister the same
per us and that night at the police station. I

(01:09:02):
don't know, but the police station certainly had his details
because they told Stephanos. So.

Speaker 1 (01:09:08):
Yeah. So it it does add up, and and it
and it and it falls in line again. You know,
you're looking for these these these these these threads, and
they they they keep kind of being pinned back to
that something extraordinary happened on the Pascagoula River.

Speaker 4 (01:09:31):
Yeah, and a number of people have said all these
two guys were drinking moonshine and whatever. Listen, Tyler, I
come from an Irish family. My family at times certainly
when those celebrations could drink, you know, and I've never
known any of them hallucinate anything ever, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:09:51):
You black out.

Speaker 4 (01:09:53):
Yeah, So it's an Remember.

Speaker 1 (01:09:56):
That didn't happen.

Speaker 4 (01:09:57):
Calvin didn't drink anyway. I think I think, you know,
Charlie liked to be a tuba, so what you know,
it's no big deal. But then we have all these
other people around it, so it's not just about Charlie
and Calvin.

Speaker 1 (01:10:14):
Right, you could essentially, and obviously you know this, it
wouldn't be this way, but you could at this point
in time, with all the evidence given, we could take
Calvin and Charles out of the equation and still have
a pretty good case.

Speaker 4 (01:10:33):
Absolutely, And that's why we called the book Beyond Reasonable Doubt.
With Irene and I had written the book and we
had another title for it. I can't remember what it was.
And I was sat watching a courtroom drama one night
on the TV and I said, we have to prove
beyond reasonable doubt. I emailed Irena and so I think
I've got a title for the book. That's what we

(01:10:54):
as you've just said, Tyler, we believed, right, if we
took all the evidence with a crude and all those people,
put them in a court room, we could prove not
that they would abducted by ailings, but we could prove
it something out of the ordinary took place that night,
you know, Yes, and it wasn't just located with Charlie

(01:11:15):
and Calvin.

Speaker 1 (01:11:17):
Correct, And I now someone had asked that earlier, and
I meant to get to it that Now there was
a more official sighting or something that happened with the
It was the Navy. Yeah, they saw a blue glow
under the water.

Speaker 4 (01:11:37):
Yeah. What happened was it was just about three weeks later.
I believe it was either November sixth or November the ninth,
I can't remember off the top of my head, but
it was in the same stretch of river where Charlie
and Calvin were fishing that night, but a bit further out,
and there were three local fishing boats, three little skiffs

(01:12:00):
with eight people in them, were out fishing and it
was dark, but they saw something under the water. It
was circular. It's about thirty feet in diameter, and it
was segmented like they liking it to like the old
parachutes in the Second World War where they had segments

(01:12:21):
in them. They got so close, they got so close
to this thing that could they literally put an oar
in the water and hit it and it Yeah. Then
the lights went off and it would appear elsewhere and
they would chase it like a cat and mouse. So
one of the skiffs went to the coast Guard station
and reported it in person a coast guard, so they

(01:12:45):
sent a boat out. They too saw it, and they
too hit it with a pole or an and it
went clung again. Now we have the full Coastguard reports
completely on re Active and it gave us all the
names of the people. In fact, I've got a freedom
of information at requests still going through because they got

(01:13:10):
only civilians and interviewed them. So they have that interview
on tapes. Now whether it still exists or not, I
don't know, so I'm still trying to get access to
that tape. The next day, the Navy came out and
they got one of the guys that was there the

(01:13:31):
night before. He thought the Navy were a bit stupid
because he said, well it happened there. There's just nothing there.
There's just water, you know. And it was said that
the Navy were going to produce a report, but we've
never seen it, we've never found it, so maybe they didn't.
But we have the complete Coastguard report and it says

(01:13:51):
in that that these things were unidentified. So again because
I've been putting the feelers out one colleague, So, no,
have you spoken to so and so he's got a
photograph of all those witnesses. No, I'll ask him, so
he said, A pought, Yeah, I've got it. So what

(01:14:12):
what they did out of the Coastguard, all the Navy,
They'll line them up on the on the side of
the and took a photograph on. But then again, when
you turn the photograph over, it gives you everybody's.

Speaker 1 (01:14:23):
Name, right, because that's what that's what it was a
common practice.

Speaker 4 (01:14:27):
Yeah, what we did we put that photograph out on
Facebook and we said, anybody know any of these people,
we'd like to speak to them. Within a couple of hours, Tyler,
a young lady had contacted me privately. He says, they're
all deceased apart from one. And she said yeah, but

(01:14:48):
she says that one's my father in law.

Speaker 1 (01:14:51):
Oh shoot, a.

Speaker 4 (01:14:54):
Chap called Earl Ryan, I believe his name. I said,
can we speak to him? Yeah? Again, the same day
we had his phone number. I passed that on directly
to doctor Scott and she interviewed all right. He was
sixteen at the time when it happened. He was on
that boat with his dad. His father was the one

(01:15:14):
that hit it.

Speaker 1 (01:15:15):
And again again they are saying this. They are saying
that they stuck an ore into the water and some
sort of physical reaction. So this thing was physically there.

Speaker 4 (01:15:31):
Yes, clink dunk, and that's in the same stretch of water.
Now people will say, well, it's got no connection to
Pasca Google and it happened three weeks later, So well,
I don't know. I mean, if it was a guy
shot at the bus stop and then an little guy

(01:15:53):
was shot at the other side of the road three
weeks later, you kind of think there was a link
somewhere there, you know, in the same place. Something bizarre happening.
But again, we have all that documented. Talist is not here,
say you know, we have it all documented, no reactions.
There's even a handwritten letter in those documents that I

(01:16:14):
think was sent to the UFO researcher at the time.
I can't remember his name, but we have and it's
by one of the Coastguard crew when he did a
little drawing of it. Can't make out what the drawing is,
but Leonard Stringfield. The letter was sent to Leonard Stringfield,
and so we have all that, you know. So it's

(01:16:38):
more testimony this time from the coast Guard and they
saw it too, and they it and it went clunk.

Speaker 1 (01:16:46):
It's amazing to me. And and across most of these reports,
they're all reporting that there's this blue light.

Speaker 4 (01:16:54):
A lot of them, not all of them, but a
lot of them. Yes, it seems the closer to the
river they get to get the blue light. As they
spread out other witnesses around the area, then they see
different things again, you know, the mister. One of the
criticisms at the time, in nineteen seventy three is that
on the bridge, this was a toll bridge, so there
was a toll booth. There was a man in it

(01:17:16):
twenty four to seven. The guy was in it that night,
never saw nothing, So it doesn't mean it wasn't somebody.
He just didn't see it. We have, mister, we have
a gentleman by the name of mister Rusty Anderson who
was driving over that bridge that night with his wife
and he saw it and he said it was down

(01:17:38):
below us. Philip, and he said it was so low
I thought it was going to crash. Says. The next
day I went down by the river to my aunt's house,
she lived down there, and he said, before I had
chance to say anything. She said, you'll never guess what
I saw last night.

Speaker 1 (01:17:56):
Now, Oh my god.

Speaker 4 (01:17:58):
Then Calvin Parker had a book signing in Pascagoula, and
this old boy with gray hair like mine come up
to Calvin and say, God, buy a book, mister Parker, Yeah,
sign it way next there. She took the money and
he said, oh, by the way, I saw that thing
that night, and he walked away. Luckily for us, again,

(01:18:21):
somebody was taking photographs, so we had a picture of
him buying a book. I put it on social media.
Like to speak to this guy laid here, I think
it was at the library, said, I know that is.
I'll ask him if he'll talk to you. He said, yeah,
I think it was mister Lewis Lee. Now, that night
of October the eleventh, nineteen seventy three, mister Lee was

(01:18:44):
on the other side of the river in the shipyard
as a crane operator, and he said, my cab was
about ten or twelve feet off the ground. Some as
I got in it, I could see this dwn tea
out over the water, not up in the sky, Tyler,
you know, he said, I could see it. It was

(01:19:06):
a white blue. He said, at times it almost looked
transparent in the middle, and he watched it for some minutes.
He said, the only reason I took my eyes off
it is because my colleague down below he's shouting because
I've got something on the end of my crane.

Speaker 1 (01:19:23):
You know, right right right, he start working.

Speaker 4 (01:19:25):
And when I look back at it going So I
said to miss mister Lee god resting has passed away
since we interviewed him. And I said, did you report
it to anybody? He says, Philip, this is nineteen seventy three.
There ain't no ghostbusters to call. You're going to report
it to, he said, my family? And then you know

(01:19:50):
whether mister Anderson he'd been He was the chap driving
over the bridge, he wrote on his Facebook or being
interviewed about the UFO sighting. A yeah, And there's a
couple of comments underneath, and there's a a lady with
a completely different name. She said, oh, I saw it
that night. So I contacted her and I said, will

(01:20:14):
you I was an interview said yes, she was called Pamela.
Pamela Raley Eves. Now Pamela lived about a mile that way,
and she said, our house was so over up the river,
and I was putting my children to bed upstairs, and
I'm going to close the curtains. I see this blue
thing out over the river. Jesus Cht. So what you've got.

(01:20:37):
You've got Charlie and Calvin here, You've got over here
Rusty Anderson on the bridge, on the bridge, You've got
the other side. You've got mister Lewis Lee in the shipyard.
And then you've got Pamela Railey eaves about a mile
this way. And then if you're adding the Blairs, yeah,

(01:20:58):
so they're only in the whole river covered, yeh yeh. Now,
when when we had Maria Uh hypnotized, I used the
same hypnotists while we could to put Calvin on the
hypnosis again and filmed it. Not that we needed to,
and we just thought it were good to have it

(01:21:18):
on the record visually.

Speaker 1 (01:21:20):
Yeah yeah, yeah yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:21:21):
And this time I put some questions for the hypnotist.

Speaker 1 (01:21:26):
Questions.

Speaker 4 (01:21:27):
Well yeah, but she knew what to expect now, so
I said, just ask Calvin. When he's stood on that
pier with his fish, you know, he's rolling the water,
can he just describe what he sees in front of him,
not behind him, what happens? So Calvin, she asked the questions.

(01:21:48):
He said, yeah, he said, there's a boat going up
and there was the company name on it and oh
a noah.

Speaker 1 (01:21:56):
Oh my gosh, you're getting corroborating evidence for the other side.
Other side.

Speaker 4 (01:22:00):
Well, then he says, there's the bridge there and you know,
and he said, and right at the end, Tyler the
little throwaway comment. He says, oh, there's two figures on
the other side of the river. Now is that the Blairs?
Is it someone else? We'll never know because if you

(01:22:23):
don't listen carefully, you'll miss it. And I jumped when
he said it and answered, what That's not what we
expected at all. So so we have all that on
record on you.

Speaker 1 (01:22:38):
Maria in her regression sees Calvin and Charles possibly and
now Calvin is seeing possibly the Blairs on the other side.
This is I mean, it's blows my mind how this
case is not the smoking gun.

Speaker 4 (01:22:58):
Well, to me, it is. It's the case. I mean,
I started in this subject back in the nineteen eighties
and I never thought I'd end up with anything like this,
and it keeps growing. There's other stuff as well, and
we could be here all night. What we've done. You
showed a little piece of it. I've worked with Nacy Weird.

(01:23:23):
We've made a four part documentary there. It is Pastor
Gooula seventy.

Speaker 1 (01:23:27):
Three, very well made.

Speaker 4 (01:23:30):
It tells some of these stories. So you'll see Maria
on there, both under hypnosis and number interview. You'll see
vintage footies of Charlie and Calvin. You see Calvin under hypnosis.
You'll see a bit about me that is on Amazon
Prime now, so if you are a subscriber to Amazon Prime,
you can watch that completely free of charge wherever you

(01:23:51):
are in the world. It's a four part series.

Speaker 1 (01:23:54):
It's a really darcy One. Thing I really really love
about Darcy is I mean he's just a machine. I
mean he really is. He's a machine, and you know
he is again he I liken him to you in
that category of people who aren't prone to believing everything.

(01:24:17):
For instance, I mean, you have a lot to say
about a lot of the you know, modern post twenty
seventeen UFO stuff, and I know you have your views.
You're not one of these guys who just believes every
story they're told, And neither is Darcy. No.

Speaker 4 (01:24:35):
I mean now, I work closely with Darcy on as
he came to my house being in England and interviewed me,
and I think he's done a great job. He's got
some great reconstructions, some fantastic graphics that aren't the kind
of cheat and cheerful stuff you can just download online.
He's right done his best. And we've got a lot
of vintage stuff on there as well, because almost we

(01:24:58):
can't interview any of the guys now they both passed away,
so we have to rely on what we have in
that respect. But again, thanks to friends and colleagues out there,
we've uncovered a whole raft of other visual material since
we made that documentary.

Speaker 1 (01:25:17):
All right, So the case keeps grolly.

Speaker 4 (01:25:20):
It keeps growing. There is more to come. There is
more to come. And I'll give you one example. It's
not exactly the case, but out of the blue, somebody
sent me a link and said, I've just listened to
this on YouTube. What it was. A gentleman had recorded

(01:25:42):
his father, I think it's immobile Alabama, and his father
had a sighting on October nineteen seventy three. In fact,
he saw it several times the same night. It was
out on a double date and they saw this thing
and he took the girlfriend home and he sees it again.

(01:26:03):
He's even got a period of missing time. So this
this chap had the sense to record his father and
then upload that recording to YouTube. There's no visual, it's
just it's just audience. Yeah, but it's another it's mobile
is not that far away, I think from from Pasca, Gooula,

(01:26:25):
and it's October nineteen seventy three, spopped into my inbox.
I don't know the person that sent it, you know.
So we've got our we're out there. Yeah. So now
when people are finding an information, they think, oh, was
that guy who's been doing all the work, and that
that mantle fellow. I'll send him this, send him this.

Speaker 1 (01:26:49):
Right. So that's and I think people feel comfortable with
you because you're not you don't you don't touch them,
You take a will you asked the way questions, And
I think people feel comfortable with someone like you who
you know, it's not going to call them crazy or
you know what we've.

Speaker 4 (01:27:06):
Done with that, with the information we've built upright, that
is again we leave that door open. This is what
we've found, This is who the witnesses are, this is
what they had to say. We've interviewed. These are photographs,
these are the documents. You make up your own mind.
We're not trying to indoctrinate anybody and say this is

(01:27:26):
what happened. In my opinion, and it was only an opinion,
is that we had to begin with, we had two
ordinary men who encountered something extraordinary that night that has
since expanded much further than we ever imagined.

Speaker 1 (01:27:46):
Yeah, it could be. It could honestly be one of
the most well documented mass sightings. I mean, at this point,
I think it's pretty safe to say that, you know,
like like you we talked about in the beginning that
beyond a reasonable doubt, there was a craft that that

(01:28:07):
was up that that that was in the air over
the Pascagoula River, not up in the sky, specifically over
the river, and I mean, it's it's just remarkable. And
then the Coastcard comes in they see something underwater. We
were you know, it's not related.

Speaker 4 (01:28:25):
Maria Blair said, you saw it coming down the river,
and she wondered, so you wondered, she wondered if they
were using the river as.

Speaker 1 (01:28:33):
A map, you follow the river exactly.

Speaker 4 (01:28:37):
It's just you know, and of course, since we made
the documentary. Since we wrote that book, a lot of
the news stuff is in another book called Pasca Gooler Oncoboard.
That's that's out now, but there's there's a lot more
in there that hasn't seen the light of day. Videos

(01:28:59):
that's the one. So we've got more material in that
with We've closed a few loose ends and settled that
because I'm talking about the bridge tender that night he
didn't He was in the newspaper said I didn't.

Speaker 1 (01:29:13):
See anything, and so that's funny that they tried to
use that as as.

Speaker 4 (01:29:18):
A However, there was a UFO researcher. I thinks Richard
Hayden wrote to the bridge tender and it wasn't as
obstructive when he was contacted by a UFO researcher rather
than the press. He's saying, well, I'm want looking, I'm

(01:29:38):
doing something.

Speaker 1 (01:29:39):
Else, right, So it's probably a case of the media
kind of taking the words. Kind of what Calvin was
worried about, right, was the words being miskewed. So the
bridge tender could have more or less said, you know,
I didn't see anything, but I also wasn't looking for something,

(01:30:00):
you know.

Speaker 4 (01:30:01):
So what you see in the new book is the
actual letters themselves a quote from them that I reproduced
the letters so you can read it for yourself. Tyler.
You know now the main debunker in nineteen seventy three
was the late Philip Class.

Speaker 1 (01:30:18):
Oh my lord, so.

Speaker 4 (01:30:22):
Philip Class tried to say that Charlie Hickson's polygraph test
was null and void because the guy who gave him
it only a few weeks after the event wasn't qualified.
It was called Scott Glasgow. And not only that, Scott
Glasgow came from New Orleans, and it was saying why

(01:30:44):
didn't they use a couple of the local people found
out that the local people there were two places in
the area that could have done it. One said, I'm
not getting involved with UFO, was full stop. The other
one said, we only run polygraphs some people who have
been the kids of a crying mister Parker, and mixed
the Hickson avant. Now, when this all took off, when

(01:31:08):
it all happened, the shipyard gave Charlie and Calvin the
use of their attorney. It was called Mike Klingo. They
didn't need him, but it's just something the shipyard did.
Just so happened, mister Kolingo. You a detective agency in
New Orleans that theyd polygraphs and they could get him
to do it for nothing. So they shipped the guy,

(01:31:30):
Scott Glasgow over and he was qualified because during the lockdown,
you remember the lockdown, the COVID lockdown.

Speaker 1 (01:31:39):
Oh yeah, I don't think anyone could forget the terrible.

Speaker 4 (01:31:43):
And detective agency in New Orleans was still open and
it was still the same guy that ran it. So
I wrote to them and then they replied to me
by an email and they explained the situation. So we
closed that door. But but it doesn't really matter it
tally because if you pass a polygraph test, skeptics will say, well,

(01:32:05):
they're not admissible in core. If you fail it, you're
a goddamn liar. So you can't win either way. But
the polygraph examine it was very skeptical and he ran
the test three times because he wanted Charlie to fail.

Speaker 1 (01:32:21):
Of course, it is very funny that you use you
said that like that, because right, if you pass the polygraph,
well you know it's it's only it's only a tool
among among others. But if you fail it, it's you failed.
You're you must be lying this is what. Yeah, so

(01:32:44):
it's it's I think it's good to put that into
context as well, because.

Speaker 4 (01:32:49):
That's that's in past cooler uncovered and it's a lot
more in there as well.

Speaker 1 (01:32:55):
Right, And you know, you and I have talked privately,
you know, with also with doctor Irena Scott. But I
think something bigger happened in the span of that September
area to the December nineteen seventy three. There are so

(01:33:18):
many cases. It seems like the UFO there must have been.
It seems like there was a surge in activity in
the year nineteen seventy three.

Speaker 4 (01:33:29):
Well, we also have to remember Dr Scott now in
October nineteen seventy three, she lives in Ohio, but she
was in Missouri. She was studying for a PhD. Yeah,
and a mother foonder have you heard that big bang?

Speaker 1 (01:33:47):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (01:33:48):
No, I don't know what you're talking about. There's been
this huge bang, this huge noise. You know, it's rattled
the windows and so on. I mean it didn't think
much of it around the next day. So there's been
UFO sightings. People are hiding under the tables and what
iver heard. Dr Scott wasn't involved in UFO research stage

(01:34:10):
was stunning for a PhD. She thought they're all bonkers.
So some years later, this event popped back into her
consciousness for some reason, and she remembered the year, and
she remembered the month, but she couldn't figure out when
it was. And she went to the local reference library

(01:34:30):
and looked through the old newspaper cuts and she found
the details of it. This huge I call it a
sonic boom, She tells me off for that. It wasn't
a sonic boom, but it's best way I can describe it.
It was eleventh October the eleventh, nineteen seventy three. It happened.
It was across the same date, went halfway across the

(01:34:54):
United States. So what I really did? She put on
her scientist's head and try to figure out how this
noise had been made, And she couldn't find any anything,
you know, jet aircraft, rockets, meteorites, you name it. She
worked with others on it. She couldn't find an explanation whatsoever.

Speaker 1 (01:35:16):
Yeah, no, am I mistaken in saying that this is
I think it's one of It is either the first
or second loudest second hoarded noise ever.

Speaker 4 (01:35:27):
Yeah, second normally to the island of Krakatoa.

Speaker 1 (01:35:31):
Right, yes, yes, okay, So second, yeah, so what could
possibly make such a sound?

Speaker 4 (01:35:40):
I don't know. I mean, Irena is the Irene is
the scientist, not meaning she couldn't find an.

Speaker 1 (01:35:46):
Answer, and and I mean this is heard. I mean
not not to mention the fact that it's the same
exact day as the passing Google case halfway across the
kind entry or or some miles away, but that this
sound was So could this s been you know, a

(01:36:07):
portal or an opening in the space time, Like I mean,
your mind starts to go so many different places with
it with the optic in activity, the UFO activity.

Speaker 4 (01:36:18):
One of the one of the little things that is
that's not necessarily a smoking gun, but a fascinating thing.
Happened after the last book came out. Sadly, after Darsy's
documentary was finished, I was contacted by a guy called
mister Van Payne. Mister Payne thought he was the first

(01:36:45):
person to interview Charlie and Calvin. After their encounter, I said, okay,
what mister van Payne was He was a photo journalist
at the time, only a young guy. But he said,
I had a contact in the Sheriff's Department, and I

(01:37:05):
was tipped off Charlie and Calvin said, when I got there,
they're gone. So he said. I went back the next morning,
and of course they were gone again. They'd gone to
the Singing River Hospital. He went there, he missed them again.

(01:37:25):
They've gone to Keysla Air Force Base. So we went
out to Keysler Air Force Base and he waited outside
and when they came out, he asked for an interview
on camera, and they said no, so he persuaded them
to be interviewed with their backs to the camera. They've

(01:37:48):
got their backs to the camera and he's here in
front of us with his microphone and the camera's here
and he interviews them and it so that's the first
ever me your interview with Charlie and Calvin, and he
sent me and we have permission to use it. Not
only that Tyler. Of course, this was all on film

(01:38:11):
in those days, not digital. It's film built the longest
piece of film. There's another interview that mister Payne did.
This time it's with the Civil Defense Establishments. They're meteorologist.
Can't remember his name off the top of my head, huh,
but he tracks something on radar.

Speaker 1 (01:38:33):
There was radar evidence, absolutely.

Speaker 4 (01:38:37):
And we have him. Yeah, we mister Van Payne interviews
him in his radar station office whatever you want to
call it, and then you know there's no cover up.
The guy sat there with talking away and what is
really interesting, there's there a two final interviews. These are

(01:38:58):
completely different. There was a local taxi driver claim that
a UFO landed in front of him and this crab
like creature came out. He forgot that his power was
part behind him and he didn't see anything that I
want interviewed as well, saying it's talking bunk coming. So

(01:39:20):
we even had a hope thrown in for good measure.

Speaker 1 (01:39:24):
Just for good. Do you think that there's a possible Well,
I won't go down that route because we could speculate
about that all day and say do you think that
that that They tried to inject some nonsense and.

Speaker 4 (01:39:37):
The guy stepped forward, so as a journalist would go
and interview him, can you either use it or you don't?
You know, they would have only used seconds, if not minutes,
of these interviews on a news broadcast. We've got that,
we've got the whole lot, so we can show it all.

Speaker 1 (01:39:59):
If he'd be do you think, I do want to
kind of get into speculative territory here. I mean with
the topic coming so far. You know, I think that
if you asked, you know, out of one hundred people
in nineteen seventy three, you know, if UFOs existed, maybe

(01:40:21):
twenty to thirty would say yes and the rest would
probably say no. But if you took that same survey today,
I think ninety nine out of one hundred would say
that there's life outside of Earth. Whether it's coming here,
I mean, that's a different story. But the topic has progressed. Nonetheless,
hearings in Congress, you know, pretty high level testimony, some

(01:40:44):
videos coming out that are military recorded. People are much
in a much more, more, much more of that headspace.
Do you think that well, I guess. Do you think
that this will remain It will remain as the most

(01:41:10):
like well documented case and maybe one that could be
used to usher in some sort of disclosure because you
said earlier Charles had talked about how these beings wanted
to help humanity.

Speaker 5 (01:41:24):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (01:41:25):
Could it have been that this chain reaction was set
off to have the story be told and have it
to come together at the right time. You know, people
maybe people weren't ready for it back then, but they
are now and the evidence is mounted so much. Uh,
you know, it just seems like I maybe I'm maybe

(01:41:45):
I'm pulling at straws here, but uh, maybe Charles wasn't wrong.
Maybe he was one of the devices that these beings
that occupied the craft were going.

Speaker 4 (01:41:55):
Well, probably not an old child. All we can say is, look,
we accumulated all this information, all this documentation, and all
these witnesses. What does it amount to, right, you know,
what is it we're dealing with here? So even the
skeptics have moved the goal pusts because initially Philip class

(01:42:16):
just said it was a hoax, just down right now. Yeah,
well that was one of his his standard fallbacks. He
couldn't figure it out, just call it, just call it
a hoax, you know. And I've got Philip Plass's whole
file on it, and he's not looking to research it.
He's just looking for some some dirt to throw, because

(01:42:36):
you know, if you throw enough dirt some of it sticks,
then you had another gentleman. Right. In twenty thirteen, Joe
Nickel was part of the same skeptics organization. Joe now
called it some kind of psychological explanation for them. So
he called it more or less. I can't pronounce it properly,

(01:42:58):
excuse me, but it's called a fure it. It's a
follier dere It's where two people can have and you know,
a phantom whatever at the same time, the losing every experience.

Speaker 1 (01:43:16):
A shared hallucination.

Speaker 4 (01:43:18):
Yeah, but what tends to happen with that is that
somebody has a very strong belief and then you have
a weak willed second person and he impassed not on him.
Eventually he believes it. Yes, again, it's Charlie and Calvin
had only been together a day. They didn't even work together,

(01:43:40):
so they were only together driving to work and trapping
home the night. Calvin lived two hundred miles away, so
and they have the exact same, not the exact same,
but very very similar experiences. So even the skeptics come
twenty thirteen and moved there their goals on it. And

(01:44:01):
I tried to explain this to Calvin. I said, even
if it was a shared experience, would't that be fantastic?
We could study that. Yeah, but it's not. You know,
Calvin wanted an answer. If I could have said, look,
I found it this is the answer. Whatever now X was,
this is the he would have been happy with it.

(01:44:22):
Another guy who was a British author. A few miles
up the way is a place called Horn Island, and
I believe the military have done some tests there with
various chemicals and so on, but it closed in the
nineteen sixties, and he believed that this was some kind

(01:44:46):
of military experiment where they put on a hallucinogenic spray
into the air.

Speaker 1 (01:44:53):
And again it's almost it's almost more ridiculous to say, there's.

Speaker 4 (01:44:58):
Boats, there's boats flowing not down the river, there's there's
traffic going on by the bridge. You're really gonna put
a hallucinogenic agent into the atmosphere? You know?

Speaker 1 (01:45:10):
That sounds like a batman villain, you know, it doesn't.
I mean, it's almost more ridiculous to say.

Speaker 4 (01:45:17):
Well, then I read I read another one that it
was the Russians. These creatures were actually Russians dressed in
their underwater swimming outfit and they were behind them and
the Russian there was nobody in the water. You know,
these weren't Russian spies in you know, with their aquils

(01:45:41):
on the goggles.

Speaker 1 (01:45:46):
If if if, if you're gonna say something like that,
at least have some you know, again, the evidence, the
puncture marks, the the the corroborating witnesses, all the evidence,
all the data is suggesting this something extraordinary happened. And

(01:46:09):
what these people are trying to say, Yeah, it's a
Russian Okay, where is the evidence to suggest that exactly?

Speaker 4 (01:46:18):
You know, and I forget it was the head of
is it Michael?

Speaker 1 (01:46:23):
Is it Sherma Michael.

Speaker 4 (01:46:26):
Yes, he's sort of the head of the skeptics movement.
I've tried to get in touch with him to debate
this case, but I've never managed to be successful. I
would gladly do that, but maybe that's for the future.

Speaker 1 (01:46:40):
Yeah, I think so. But so if we're going to
get into a little speculation here before we before we
wrap up, but what do you I mean, do you
think that these these beings, if if we're assumed, if
we're going to go on the notion that there is
some sort of non human uh intelligence. It's not some

(01:47:03):
black black budgets special access program.

Speaker 5 (01:47:08):
You know, like.

Speaker 1 (01:47:11):
You know, some something like that. If we're on the
notion that it's non human intelligence, I mean, what do
you do you think that those beings that they saw
were because they were different than how like people would
often describe the grays or.

Speaker 4 (01:47:28):
Yeah, I mean they are they are unique to this case,
unique English creatures roots or right from the very beginning,
Charlie and Calvin called them robots simply because of the
way they moved. I couldn't hear them breathing. They never
made a noise, and we have that on the recordings

(01:47:49):
that were made, you know, within two days this happening.
One of those recordings is is Dr Heinek interviewing that
showed Fred Diamond and they're talking about robots. So it's
not something that was invented at some point, you know,
in the future. They were talking about it there and then.

(01:48:10):
And of course Calvin in his encounters saw this female creature.
It's almost almost human. He did say she looked like
to have them. He had a mask on, but she
was almost human. And this is Calvin, you know, he
did have a sense of humor. I said, well, what
did she look like? He says, all I can tell
you is if you saw it in a bar, you
buy a drink. Yeah, that's the way. That's the way

(01:48:33):
he could describe it. So she was she was they
were in charge.

Speaker 1 (01:48:39):
Good looking woman, but she had a little bit of
an extended middle finger.

Speaker 4 (01:48:43):
That's right, Yeah, yeah like that.

Speaker 1 (01:48:46):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:48:46):
She was also in Calvin's Encounters when he was a
young fella. He saw the one in nineteen ninety three.
And we're going to finish off and say that there
was another encounter in nineteen ninety two, and we'll do
with that at some point in the future. It's featured

(01:49:07):
in my book. But it's something again that's unique and
needs discussing at lengthing the future. Absolutely, we may we
may be working on something to do that.

Speaker 1 (01:49:20):
Yes, we may be doing that, so I may. It
gets me excited. That's why I love talking about this
case because it's just like it is one, you know,
because there are other Betty and Barney Hills, like there
are these stories that that and again, you know, back
then it was the world was a lot different than

(01:49:40):
it is today, right. It's it's just for all these
people to have seen something similar. The amount of production
that we need to go into that and I and
that's you know, in part why I brought up the
alien autopsy because you know, that was a production so

(01:50:00):
people put that together and you know, the evidence inevitably
came out against it to that that it was a
hoax or you're not not maybe a hoax, but it
was made for something else and then used out of context.
But you know, you've been on both sides. You know,
you've you've seen a case. Uh you know where it

(01:50:22):
leads and and when it falls apart.

Speaker 3 (01:50:25):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (01:50:25):
But with Pascal Gula, that just simply hasn't happened. It.
It keeps getting more interesting as the years go on
and the evidence mounths.

Speaker 4 (01:50:33):
Absolutely, you know, some of the loopholes that we thought
were there that when you look into it, they're not.
It's easy enough to close them.

Speaker 1 (01:50:41):
Right, And like I said, the amount of work that
would have needed to go into to generally hoax this
and have everybody on the same page. Uh, it's just
it's it's just it's stupid. So two things, real quick.
Do you have the radar evidence?

Speaker 4 (01:50:59):
No, would you have the gentleman talking about it, the
guy who actually saw.

Speaker 1 (01:51:04):
You'd be obtainable?

Speaker 4 (01:51:07):
I think it unlikely, but we have his testimony nonetheless.

Speaker 1 (01:51:13):
Yeah, okay, all right, yeah, because.

Speaker 4 (01:51:14):
I have to remember it. In the in those days,
a lot of things used to get wiped because they
needed to reuse it again. I mean yeah, it's like
TV companies here that recorded things on video, they lost
you unique archives because they're simply taped over them. Yep.
It was just save money.

Speaker 1 (01:51:33):
That's why when the government, you know, when people fia
the government and then they say, you know, we destroyed
that evidence or we you know, they're like, how how
could you do? So I'm like, it's easier than you think.

Speaker 4 (01:51:47):
That's why when when when we got the Coast Guard documents,
they tell you what they have, We interviewed this, this, this,
and this, all the people interviewed, and then it says
tape recorder. So what they're putting together those documents is
based on those interviews. And there's a tape recording. It's
highlighted there. So we've got the documents. It is the

(01:52:08):
tape still available? I don't know. But if you don't,
if you don't, ask Tyler, and if you come back
and say no, well that's another avenue. You know, you
don't have to worry about it anymore. But if they've
got it, then can we have a copy? Please?

Speaker 1 (01:52:23):
Yes? Yes, because that would be I mean, oh my god,
would that be I mean oof? One more thing, you know,
I wanted to bring up is do you think that
it's possible that Philip Close was uh controlled opposition?

Speaker 4 (01:52:42):
I don't know. I think I think Philip, you know,
played both sides. It kept him in the in the limelights.
I don't understand why a skeptic would be like that, but.

Speaker 3 (01:52:54):
You have it.

Speaker 4 (01:52:54):
In the paranormal field. You sa have James Randy for example.
I mean he he was a greater Gella. Yeah, but
that made him famous, you know, the more attacked Glory,
the more famous he got, and the more famous, you know,
the great James Brandy got. And I've met an interview

(01:53:15):
with Thegether, you know, I've sat in his living room.
It's a house that he's got in England, and not necessarily,
you know, but I used to work for a magazine.
They wanted an interview with him. I traveled down and
sat a very nice guy, very nice man, and we

(01:53:36):
talked a lot about football, more than anything he has.
He now has his own museum in Tel Aviv, so
I think he's back out living there. Whether he's moved
out of the area because of the ongoing hostilities or not,
I don't know. But his house was worth a fortune.
His house was worth a fortune, Tyler and I saw,

(01:54:00):
I said, I said, Uri, you didn't buy this house
bending spoones for a living. Where they hell did you
get your money from? And he said, you're right, Philip.
I got my money from downsing for oil and I
was paid on results. Don't find any oil, don't get
any money. And he told me that and we became

(01:54:25):
friendly for a while. And in nineteen ninety nine I
had a name fatal heart attack and I was in
hospital and already rung the hospital and thanked the nurses
for looking after me, and he sent them a signed
card thanking them, and had no reason to do that.
I just did it out of the blue, really, So

(01:54:47):
it's a really nice guy. I don't believe in virtually
anything he says. But he said he doesn't care. It's
like Charlie and Calvin. I don't care whether he believe me,
but Calvin would saying he told me a liar. If
you call me a liar, I'm going to punch your
light self. And as the same, I don't care if

(01:55:07):
you believe me, but if you call me a hooser,
I'll sue you. You know, it's a different approach. One
time Calvin met Philip class and he told him exactly
what he was going to do to him if you again, you.

Speaker 1 (01:55:23):
Know, yeah, I put the fear of God into him
because because Calvin's a big boy, he was a tough guy.

Speaker 4 (01:55:32):
Calvin didn't mind a fight at all. And he said
at high school, if any if any bothered, anybody bothered
with his brother, then they got me to deal with, you.

Speaker 1 (01:55:41):
Know, exactly so, and that's the type of person he was.
And that's not the type of person who And again
he's a very reserved person. Anyone can see that from
any of the interviews and any of the the the
kind of the witness, not not the witness, but the researcher. Everyone.
The way they talk about Calvin is that he was

(01:56:02):
he was kind of like a teddy bear. He was big, big,
but he he believed in God hard.

Speaker 4 (01:56:11):
He disliked all politicians, so he didn't take any of
anybody political stance. When he was younger, he said he
found two guys in the woods beating up a black guy.
So Calvin got hold of these two guys and knocked
seven bells out of them, you know. So he wasn't racist.
You know. And it was a hard working, honest guy,

(01:56:33):
you know. And in October nineteen seventy three, he had
his life set out, was getting married in November's going
to get married by a house, have children, have grandchildren, retired.
That was it. That was it. But that night, October
the eleventh, nineteen seventy three, changed his life forever.

Speaker 1 (01:56:56):
History had plans for Calvin, History had plans.

Speaker 5 (01:57:02):
It.

Speaker 1 (01:57:03):
I want to I'm just go this, you know, end
here is that I want to hear you say it.
Everything that you've heard, after everything that you've seen, everything
you've dug into. Do you believe Charles Hickson and Calvin
Parker were abducted by a non human intelligence in October

(01:57:25):
of nineteen seventy three.

Speaker 4 (01:57:27):
I don't think we can prove that. I think we
can prove that something quite extraordinary happened. So these two
individuals and maybe others and were witnessed in part by others.
But what happened to when Tyler, you know, it's for
somebody else smarter than me to figure out. You know.

(01:57:49):
The way I look upon my role is to document
these incidents and put that into the growing pile of
evidence that we have, hopefully somebody somewhere will we'll figure
it out, somebody smarter than me. What I will say,
something very bizarre happened. What your guess is as good

(01:58:11):
as mine?

Speaker 1 (01:58:13):
Yeah, yeah, and uh, Phil, I mean I think I
think the community, the the UFO researching community, owes such
a great debt to you, uh, for for how much
legwork you've put into this case. If it wasn't for you,
we wouldn't have Calvin Is. We wouldn't have Calvin's book.

(01:58:34):
He probably wouldn't have come forward the way he came forward. Uh,
and we wouldn't have had any time with him, you
know if albeit uh you know, the latter half of
his life, we wouldn't have had anything. I think. Uh,
I think you you were the bridge that brought him

(01:58:55):
into the light, that allowed him to tell his story
and not feel subjugated or crazy or anything like that.

Speaker 4 (01:59:04):
We became good friends, yes, and Calvin would I'd earned
his trust. No matter what we did, I would not
do it without Calvin say so, right, And he would say,
you don't have to ask me. I said, Calvin, this
is your story, not mine. Yes, you know it's easy
for me to say. Yes, I said to me, if

(01:59:27):
you don't want to do these things, then don't do them.
There's nobody going to say anything. For example, he spoke
at a few conventions. Nobody made him do that. It
wanted to do it. There is a movie written about Calvin.
I've read the script and it might be moving forward
at some point. But I warned him. I warned him,

(01:59:47):
I said, Calvin, if you go down the movie roope,
it may that the end finishing part may not be
one hundred percent accurate.

Speaker 1 (01:59:56):
Right look at Fire in the Sky with Travis Vaulton.

Speaker 4 (01:59:59):
Be aware of that and if if, if, if you
don't want to do it, nobody's going to force you.
But he's done it. And the writers worked closely with Calvin.
They spoke to him, Reddy's books, they would check things
on it. I've read the screenplay. Each is about ninety
accurate as it stands that if it ever goes into production,

(02:00:20):
that can change. Of course.

Speaker 1 (02:00:22):
Was it a film or was it a This is
a series?

Speaker 4 (02:00:26):
No, this is a feature film. There's been two written.
There's been a feature film written and a four part
drama series. Whether we'll never see any of them in
production is a different matter. But they are there well I.

Speaker 1 (02:00:39):
Think the time is ripe for green lighting anything for
us to do with UFOs. I think right now is
in the zeitgeist, you know, I mean, what's your what's
your take on the because I didn't want to ask this,
but I forgot what I mean, what's your take on

(02:01:00):
all the latest whistleblower stuff happening? And I mean, do
you think there's a possible chance of an actual disclosure
of some sort like? Has that changed for you?

Speaker 4 (02:01:13):
No? No, simple as that. No, they don't. Waste of time,
all of them.

Speaker 1 (02:01:17):
Okay, Hey, I respect that. I respect that.

Speaker 4 (02:01:21):
Mister Hope I'm wrong, you know, I would be happy
to something common poke finger up me and say you
were wrong. I all my hands up. Complete waste of time.
Don't don't listen to them. There's nothing I mean when
you talk about disclosure. They keep saying, all the government's
got this government? How the hell are you now? We've

(02:01:43):
got it right? You know?

Speaker 1 (02:01:45):
Right?

Speaker 5 (02:01:46):
Right?

Speaker 4 (02:01:46):
I mean there, you know, I think the government, whoever
the hell the government is, because I'm gonna tell you
who the hell they mean? Yeah, they don't know any
more than we do. Because you or I don't investigate UFOs.
We investigate sightings of UFOs. So by the time we

(02:02:09):
get to the wustiness, it's been and gone, and they
keep talking about alien crashers and how many crashes can
they be?

Speaker 1 (02:02:21):
Yeah, that's what really never sat right with me.

Speaker 4 (02:02:25):
How long do you stop sending spaceships from whatever the
hell they're coming from? If before you realize the crashing
it If we go back to Roswell supposedly with the
you know, the earliest crash, you traverse the galaxy somehow
to get here, and then what do you do? You
crash in the desert.

Speaker 1 (02:02:44):
Yeah, I think.

Speaker 4 (02:02:46):
Roswell was a balloon. I'll go on the record and
I've written an article about it. And the reason I've
come to that conclusion is because Marcel's Junior was the
first to see the eye beams with these inscriptions on.
We all think I've met Jesse's been here, lovely guy
telling the truth. If you look at the wreckage of

(02:03:09):
the photographs that were taken in General Ramie's office, Yeah,
they were taken by a photographer called James Bond Johnson.
It's a radar reflector and under the don't know if
it's under the chair and on the table is the
balloon because it started to go gray or brown. It's
been in the sun for a while, right, there's a

(02:03:31):
piece of something sticking out at the end, you know,
something supporting. I'm pretty sure that when you look at
the enhanced image, it's got one of those markings on
that Marcel talks about, one of those hieroglyphs. Really, so
if it's got a hieroglyphic and General Rami's office, then

(02:03:54):
the jump that his father put on the office on
his kitchen floor that night, it's also a balloon. Yeah,
that's my take on it. Yeah, I said, I've just
released an article of a guy who said he's seeing
photographs of the aliens of as well. So I may

(02:04:15):
be totally wrong. That is just my.

Speaker 1 (02:04:20):
But that's why I like you, Phil is your you're
like and and people take take a cueue here, because
I think that what we've lost is the ability to
be like you and to be willing to be wrong.
Actually you probably hope you're wrong in most but you're

(02:04:42):
also not dense, and you're not gonna believe that everyone's
channeling aliens and and you know, talking about uh crash retrievals.
And I get it. I get where you're coming from,
your your your skeptical skeptical believer, you.

Speaker 4 (02:05:00):
Know your whole it is is most UFO sightings that
are reported to us have a conventional explanation.

Speaker 1 (02:05:09):
Yes, and I think we all know that.

Speaker 4 (02:05:12):
And that will be the same to the be it
to the US military or whoever. That's why they keep
They'll have these little grainy pieces of crap that's released
and for a few few months down the line, they'll
say it's a balloon, but it's an airplane because they
finally got around to having a look at it. Just

(02:05:34):
because it's the air force or the government doesn't necessarily
mean for getting any better quality data than we are
as civilians. In fact, I would say we get more
data than they do. We're actively looking for it. And
I think some civilian organizations do a pretty damn god.

(02:05:54):
Some do crap, but some do a pretty damn good job.

Speaker 1 (02:05:58):
And I agree.

Speaker 4 (02:06:00):
I wondered what would happen if we had something like
Pascagoula happened today, but but it involved a serving military personnel.
They could be at home on leave, you know, don't
have to be in uniform or anything like that.

Speaker 1 (02:06:17):
That's what I mean.

Speaker 4 (02:06:19):
Then, then what would happen.

Speaker 1 (02:06:21):
I think that the world would have the world would shatter.

Speaker 4 (02:06:25):
I keep getting all these accusations or they're not allowed
to tell them, or they'll get killed. That what's his
fellow from down under? All there's been people killed to
keep these Who's being killed?

Speaker 1 (02:06:40):
Who?

Speaker 4 (02:06:41):
Who the hell's been murdered to keep this quiet? Surely
if they'd been murdered to keep this quiet? Did a
shot you? You buge for releasing it? There? The shot
you first, you know, don't make any sense.

Speaker 1 (02:06:55):
You know, I will agree with you there and and
and that's the good thing is we can live in
a world where we know that ninety five percent of
sightings and and encounters most likely have a prosaic explanation.
But there's that last five percent. And out of that

(02:07:15):
five percent, there's really like one percent.

Speaker 4 (02:07:17):
And I think you are the You are the first
person I've heard you say they say that apart from
mein Tyler. Yeah, because it's it's a lot less than
five percent. We get an occasional case that comes along
every now and again. You know, yes, that and that's
what we're looking for.

Speaker 1 (02:07:36):
That's only one of them has to be one, only one.

Speaker 4 (02:07:41):
I think I think this one is. You know, because
of everything that we've we've we've managed to come across,
we found extra witnesses and extra witnesses coming in slowly mature.
There are others out there. I know for a fact. Yeah,
I'll show you how one last thing and I gotta go.

(02:08:03):
I mentioned Chelsea Norton Prince. She runs the Ocean Springs
Historical Society. She met Calvin, she bought a book, put
a couple of posts on her Facebook page. One of
her members, called Bethany, said, in twenty eleven, when Charlie
Hixon died, my mum and dad bought his house and

(02:08:26):
he had these boxes of papers in it. Now do
you want them? You want them? She gave them to Chelsea.
Chelsea knew what I was at, so she contacted me
and said, do you want a copy of them, Philip,
And I'll tell you what. She digitized them in rapid procession.

(02:08:46):
Now there's no smoking guns in it, because these are
around the nineteen nineties. However, and we'll just leave it here.
There's one letter in there from a NASA physicist. His
name's on it, his address on it. I checked him out.
He isn't it wasn't n as a physicist. I think
it's deceased now. But he wrote to Charlie Hickson and said,

(02:09:09):
when your encounter took place, I went to my boss
and asked him to investigate it. And the decline.

Speaker 1 (02:09:20):
Holy shit.

Speaker 4 (02:09:22):
So if he's telling the truth and we have no
reason to suspect that he asked his boss at NASA
to look into the Hixon and Parker event and they declined,
would we do the same now?

Speaker 1 (02:09:35):
I don't know, And who knows. Maybe they declined publicly
or you know, you know, they declined him, but once
they knew of it, you know, maybe they started looking
at it. And I can imagine something like that happening.
So who knows, who really does know? That's a That's
a really good place to leave it on. And I'll

(02:09:57):
say that, Uh, there's more. The the pastor Goola case is,
it's there's more coming. There's there is more coming. Phil,
You are such a treasure man. I am so happy
that that I've I've gotten to know you over the years,
and uh, it's still one of my favorite guests of

(02:10:18):
all time. I think, like I said, the your four
community has owed a tremendous debt to someone like yourself.
You've put so much work and time in how can
people follow what is going on in Philip Mantle's world?
Any any books coming out?

Speaker 4 (02:10:35):
Well, you've We've got the two books out now Beyond
reasonable Doubt and Pascogola Uncovered. Please avail yourself of those.
They follow on from each other. We have Pasco Googler
seventy three, the four part documentary series out now on
Amazon Prime, produced by Darcy wear and then with more
to come in the future you know.

Speaker 1 (02:10:56):
To come, Yeah, and and you know things that are
you know in more in media more. I think that
are going to be more more immersive and and they're
going to be able to show that you know, there's
like like your your book says with the title, I
think that's such a spot on title. Is beyond a

(02:11:18):
reasonable doubt. I mean because I think this case, like
you said, if you brought it up to a jury
of our peers and presented the case in its fullest,
I think the evidence suggests that, as you say, something
happened on the night of October eleventh, nineteen seventy three.

Speaker 4 (02:11:36):
Absolutely absolutely all right, Phil, the great great pleasure talking
to you, Tyler.

Speaker 1 (02:11:42):
As always my friend you you know, and we have
some talking to do. I'll email you and we'll get
on the horn. For everyone else, make sure to like, share,
subscribe if you're listening on one of the amazing podcast platforms,
leave us a rating and a review. It really helps
with the pesky algorithms. And if you want to go
and support the channel further, we'll open it up now. Uh,

(02:12:04):
we're kind of playing on like the asset program, you know,
you can buy in an unclassified, classified, or top secret
become an asset of t VP. All members get the
same thing. It's early access and ad free versions of
each show, and it's pay what you think the show
is worth you. With that being said, we'll see you
on the next time. We'll see you on the next time.

(02:12:27):
That doesn't make sense, we'll see you next time.

Speaker 5 (02:12:31):
Learn to speak

Speaker 1 (02:13:12):
I

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