December 20, 2024 • 26 mins
Curious how someone with no management experience took over a family-owned bar and turned it into a successful restaurant? In this episode of Total Michigan, Cliff DuVernois sits down with Cathy Howell, the owner of The Wicked Sister in Sault Ste. Marie, to discuss her journey from waiting tables to owning a bustling restaurant. Cathy shares the challenges she faced, the strategies she implemented, and the importance of community in her business.
Key topics include:
- Cathy's background and initial lack of management experience
- The evolution of The Wicked Sister's menu and the decision to add a kitchen
- The restaurant's focus on community engagement and developing a loyal local customer base.
Links:
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Show Notes:
00:00 Starting with No Experience
00:23 Welcome to Total Michigan
00:50 Meet Cathy Howell
00:59 Cathy's Early Life and Career
02:19 Falling in Love with the Restaurant Business
03:06 The Birth of the Wicked Sister
04:42 Building a Successful Restaurant
06:58 Creating a Unique Menu
12:39 Hiring a Chef and Growing the Business
18:39 Focusing on Local Customers
20:36 Community Involvement and Events
23:09 Signature Dishes and Final Thoughts
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
I had no management experience.
(00:01):
I didn't know how to do an order.
I wasn't really comfortablechecking with vendors.
And it was, there was a lot ofstuff that needed to happen.
And thankfully we had a reallygood staff in the beginning.
There were four or five peoplethat had as much or more experience
than I did and really had a passionfor helping to build a business.
(00:23):
Hello everyone and welcome back to TotalMichigan, where we interview ordinary
people doing extraordinary things.
I'm your host Cliff DuVernois.
I am up in Sault Ste.
Marie, and one of the restaurants thatI always make it a point to visit when
I'm up there is the Wicked Sister.
And I come here because not only isthe food good, but the service is good.
And if the food is good and theservice is good, then the person behind
(00:44):
it must be doing something right.
Because having a restaurant isdefinitely not an easy business to be in.
Today I'm sitting with Cathy Howell.
Owner of the Wicked Sister in Sault Ste.
Marie.
Cathy.
How are you?
I'm wonderful.
How are you?
I'm doing awesome Thank you for asking.
Why don't you tell us where you're from?
Where did you grow up?
I grew up here.
Born and raised.
So pretty quick story, butI, My family's all from here.
(01:06):
We're a huge family.
My dad is one of six.
My mom is one of five.
And most people settled here.
So a huge extended family.
I moved to Chicago to go to school.
I lasted a semester because theatricalset design apparently wasn't really
what I needed to be doing with my life.
And a few years later,I moved to Baltimore.
(01:27):
Because I needed to spread my wings.
And when you have family that'sinvolved with the police department
and involved with all of these thingswithin the community I really wanted
to be able to make my own mistakesand not have to answer to my parents
unless I made the national news.
So it was a good place tobe for, probably three, four
years, I think I was out there.
When you talk about spreadingyour wings in Baltimore, what
(01:49):
was it you were doing there?
I waited tables.
I was hanging out my, one ofmy roommates was a musician.
So I spent a lot of time at open mics.
And he was also anapprenticing tattoo artist.
It's like all of the things thatyou do in your twenties that you
might be don't love as an adult.
so you're waiting tables, but
Obviously now we're fastforwarding and you're owning
(02:13):
a restaurant.
So.
Is being a restauranteur just somethingthat's always been in your blood?
Is it something that you stumbled into?
How did you get on this path?
I started working at Antlers,here in the Sault, when I was 14.
And I loved it.
I loved the speed and the fast pace.
And the people that workedthere, the people that came in.
I loved it.
By the time I was 16, I distinctlyremember chatting with Phyllis Kinney,
(02:37):
one of the owners, and she was likewhat do you want to do when you grow up?
And I said, I want to own a restaurant.
And she said, oh, honey, no.
And And, right, because Isaw how difficult it was.
so I tried to do other things.
I went to school to be atheatrical set designer.
I went to school to bea social worker teacher.
And none of them fit.
I kept always goingback to the restaurant.
(02:59):
And I thought, why not?
So I figured what I would end up doingis having a career, and then retire,
and then this would be my hobby.
And then in 2014, my grandpa boughtwhat was the Gin Mill, at auction.
And he gave it to my mom and three aunts.
They had minimal restaurant experience,so they tapped me to be their GM.
(03:19):
And I guess the rest is history.
And they really didn'tlove it the way that I did.
So after a few months they started talkingwith Grandpa and got his blessing that
I would buy it and be the sole owner.
And then they could allgo back into retirement.
Let's take a step back here for a second.
Because you were talking abouthow you were working at the
restaurant, the Antlers in St.
(03:41):
Marie.
And you really startedto fall in love with it.
What was it, about the restaurantbusiness, that you fell in love with.
What I loved the most at the time wasthis like in spirit of hospitality, right?
This welcoming people in.
And I think what's really excitingto me is that the restaurant
(04:01):
industry seems to be in thisreally weird spot of, we fill a.
basic human need, right?
Everyone needs to eatand nourish their bodies.
We just provide, a convenience levelto it, or maybe an experience to it.
And having that having that really justbrought me so to welcome people in.
(04:21):
And even today, like welcomingpeople in and this is our house.
We spend more time here, wakinghours than probably anywhere
else, you know in our daily lives.
So to have that sense of pride andto welcome people in and to make
them feel appreciated and comfortableis sometimes a challenge, but
it's a really great place to be.
(04:42):
Grandpa gets the place at auction.
And your mom and hersisters are running it.
You're the one that clearlyshows a passion in this.
So the question I got ultimatelyfor you is, 'cause you talked
about your background there.
How is it that you step up and startrunning a restaurant without really,
you worked at a restaurant, but
It was trial by fire.
Okay.
All right.
(05:02):
Before Wicked opened the highest positionthat I had held was I was the lead server.
For maybe six months in Baltimore.
That was it.
I had no management experience.
I didn't know how to do an order.
I wasn't really comfortablechecking with vendors.
And it was, there was a lot ofstuff that needed to happen.
And it was just little by little.
(05:23):
And thankfully we had a reallygood staff in the beginning.
There were four or five peoplethat had as much or more experience
than I did and really had a passionfor helping to build a business.
And if you've never been inthat startup situation, it's
either for you or it's not.
Because we changed things soquickly to go, oh, we thought that
(05:45):
was gonna work, but clearly no.
Let's try this, plan B or C or and so on.
And really, my cousin Char she's been heresince day one and started in the kitchen.
I'd never cooked before.
So I stood in her way untilshe taught me to cook.
And we got our butts handed to us,quite a few lunch shifts right?
Mostly because she's, can't carry ateam of two and I wasn't that great.
(06:08):
And Bob's been heresince February of 2015.
Those are my two longestrunning employees.
And we just had a lot ofpeople that cared and helped.
And I think that's what startedthis internal culture at Wicked.
Where we wanted everybody to be successfuland I didn't always have the answers.
And I wasn't too proud to tellpeople I don't know what to do.
(06:33):
So we would come together andsay, okay what seems to be the
best solution to this issue?
And that really worked.
And it helped and it ingrainedpeople into Wicked and it made it
this family and this amazing thing.
It worked.
I don't know if I had to do it overagain but I would know more, right?
But that's how it happens.
And you just have to, I think, keeppushing on and not be so proud that
(06:57):
you pretend to, have all the answers.
you come here and you start workingdid you have a vision for what you
wanted this place to really be?
Or was it something that justorganically evolved over Time?
So I wish that I had this likereally amazing answer of Yes,
this is exactly what we wanted.
(07:17):
And so during the planning processafter grandpa had bought the bar.
And we spent about a year,renovating it and had to wait
for licensing to come through.
So we had lots of time to think and plan.
And if you think that my grandpa andhis girlfriend were in their 80s at
the time, and I have aunts and uncles,parents that run, 70s to 50s, and then,
(07:39):
I was in my 30s, I have children, Ihave cousins that are in their 20s,
it really became this chaotic beehiveof everybody wanted something right?
My grandpa wanted the 75cent Bud Light shells.
And just a good old fashionedroast beef sandwich because
you can't get that anymore.
And I'm like maybethere's a reason for it.
But okay, under consideration andwhitefish croquettes were thrown
(08:02):
out and you know It's just all ofthese ideas that you know really
need It was really frustrating, I'mnot gonna lie, it was really hard.
But it, it really becamethis place for everybody.
Because we had so many differentgenerations that wanted something that
represented them or something that madethem happy that we just cast a wide net.
(08:24):
And it became this place for everybody.
I think even now today we try and bevery inclusive and welcome everybody.
So that's how it all came to be.
And then really in terms of the menuwe, we had to start with what we knew.
We couldn't be these thisgreat culinary experts.
Because I didn't know I know I couldn'tteach somebody how to cook a steak, right?
(08:47):
I couldn't cook a steak.
And so we really started with a verybasic menu with just some really
unique flavors, some really uniqueingredients, but when you break it
down, for a very long time, we werea burger and chicken sandwich place.
When you first got thisplace, it was just a bar.
And then at some point youadded the kitchen on the back.
When you add a restaurant on the back,you're adding a whole level of complexity.
(09:10):
You're bringing in all of theseother state organizations.
You've got inspections that go on.
You got to make sure that your foodis good and the food typically doesn't
have a high margin like booze does.
Why did you decide to add the kitchen on?
So I think, and just from whatI've witnessed, in the community,
the bar industry's dying.
And it's been accelerated,I think, even since COVID.
(09:32):
We can back up to 2014 when we werestill, I was trying to convince my
grandpa into investing into putting in akitchen because it's not cheap and it's
It, a bar brings a different clientele.
And I didn't know that we would be thishigh end cocktail place, we were just,
we would have served mixed drinks andsome beer And that didn't feel right
(09:56):
and it didn't feel very profitable tome for what we were doing and I worked
at a restaurant, at Zorba's, for nineyears off and on, through marriage and
babies and all of this, and I loved it.
So if I was going to jump on boardand leave a job that I loved, I
really wanted to make sure that itwas going to be a stable career.
(10:16):
And I didn't see thathappening without a kitchen.
How basic was your menuwhen you first opened?
It wasn't I'm trying to think ofwhat some of our original things
where we started with like aMaryland style crab dip, right?
Because we knew that the Drunken Cowwhich has been a signature number one
seller on our menu since we opened.
And it's beer, cheese andbacon and beer onions.
(10:38):
We did a Dirty Uncle, which isstill on our menu, fondly named
after one of my dirty uncles.
We have a bourbon chicken sandwich that weretired and then brought back after a few
years where it was bourbon sauce, or wewere doing our signature barbecue sauce.
So we were really takingcomfortable, familiar items and
then just putting a twist on it.
(10:59):
And even today if people come in andthey're like, I just want a cheeseburger.
Yes, that is okay.
We judge a little bit but it's fine.
Right.
Awesome.
it's fine
For our we're I gonna take a quickbreak and thank our sponsors.
When we come back, Cathy's going tocontinue to share with us the interesting
journey of the Wicked Sister and theimpact it's having on the local community.
We'll see you after the break.
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Hello, everyone, and welcome back toTotal Michigan, where we interview
ordinary Michiganders doing somepretty extraordinary things.
I'm your host, Cliff DuVernois.
Today, we're sitting with Cathy Howellof the Wicked Sister up in Sault Ste.
Marie.
And Cathy, before the breakwe were talking about the very
interesting journey that therestaurant has had over the years.
(12:26):
And how you came in and startedreally making the place your own.
Talk to us about how you come up withthe menu items that you have on here.
Talk to us about how you make that happen.
In the beginning, it was, myself andCharlene and, the handful of cooks
that we had in the back and it reallystarted out with, geez, this sounds good.
(12:50):
Let's try it.
And that was successful.
Now I hired a chef in 2020, 2019,and she started just as a line cook.
And then we grew in need and then hadthe budget to hire a kitchen manager.
And she's since been promoted to chef.
And she does an amazing job ofcollecting ideas from everybody else.
(13:12):
Or, again, geez, this sounds good.
And that's really whereour menu comes from.
Kat just has this amazing abilityto do really wonderful things
and fancy techniques that wereally weren't able to do before.
So we do have steak on the menu now.
Because she is able to trainpeople to cook a steak.
(13:33):
So having her on board has reallytaken our menu to the next level.
And because she's a fantastic leader andis doing all these creative things that
we've had really high quality peoplecome in and want to work underneath
of her, which has then bolsteredkind of the, I call them the nameless
(13:53):
faceless army in the back that Theyjust, they do such amazing things.
Things I didn't think wereever going to be possible here.
Just a complete game changeron, on what we're able to do.
Why did you make thedecision to hire a chef?
So I think it really camedown to a business decision.
In I'm a front of house girl, right?
(14:15):
So I'm not so much a bartender.
But that's where my domainis in front of the house,
greeting guests, waiting tables.
That's what I know.
It's what I love.
Back a house.
It's not, I'm not strong at it.
And I don't love it the way thatother people like cat and people that
are used to a kitchen that she does.
So it really came down to thebusiness has grown to a point that I
(14:38):
can't effectively manage both sides.
And I need to bringsomebody in to do that.
So she became that's just howit started and no regrets.
She was 22 I believe, when Ihired her as a kitchen manager.
She has blown my mind on all ofthe things that she's capable of.
And the food is outstanding.
(14:59):
But really, truly her as a leader hasreally, she turned kitchen morale around.
And it's just been, it'sbeen a really great thing.
You talked about, business wasdoing good so that afforded you the
opportunity to hire, a kitchen manager,hire a chef, you were talking about
how it was starting to really growand you couldn't manage the front of
the house and the back of the house.
What do you attribute this growth to?
(15:23):
Ooh I think, right, I think it's the ideathat we offer great food, we offer great
service, so you don't have to choose.
I've been victim where I go outto eat, and I might really love
the food, but I don't reallylove the service, or vice versa.
And I think here you reallytruly get both sides of it.
(15:45):
And you get this experience of, we, wecan have beer, we have a great wine list,
we've got really interesting cocktails.
But also we have foodthat's consistently good.
And one of the things, I thinkthat's been the biggest compliment
that I've heard several times isthat people ask if we're a chain.
Because not only did they comein once and they loved it.
(16:07):
But then they came back andit might be a year later.
It might be three months later andthey had similarly a great experience.
And they said, we've onlyseen this happen in chains.
And I'm like no, I wouldlove to be a chain, but no.
And then another thing too that pointedout is I was out with dinner with
some friends the other night and wewere talking about How it seems like
(16:30):
when it comes especially when it comesto restaurants that if the owner is,
absent or really doesn't care then itseems like the employees don't care.
And you have a really substandardexperience when you do that
Do you agree with that?
Oh 100%.
And it's so it's so amazing.
I went to South Dakota inAugust for a family wedding.
I was gone for 10 days.
(16:52):
While I was at the dude ranchwhere the wedding was, I had no
internet and I had no cell service.
And I knew going in that'show it was going to be.
And I just told him you guys are goingto have to figure it out because I
can't, you won't be able to call me.
Wait, you come back as abusiness owner after 10 days.
And you think, what fires amI going to have to put out?
(17:12):
There was nothing!
Nothing!
When we finally got into cellservice and we're on the drive back.
And my phone's not blowing up.
And I think exactly did the place burndown and everyone just walked away.
Like what is this?
No, it just ran business as usual.
I actually think it runs a littlebit better if I'm not here.
I tend to overthink things.
I tend to get a little bit anxious.
(17:33):
And everybody does carethey have a vested interest.
So it is as a business owner one ofthe coolest things to have a group We
usually have about 24, 25 employeeson staff That come in every day and
they give a hundred and ten percent.
And they honestly they shame me as aformer employee because I don't know
that I always did that And they'rejust I think the world of them I would
(17:56):
walk through fire for every singleperson that we have on a schedule.
But they really truly are amazing.
And if something's not right or if theythink that we can do something better,
Most of them feel very comfortable comingto me and saying, Hey, could we, what do
you think about doing it this way instead?
And I love it because Istill, we're eight years in.
I still don't have all the answersand right day in and day out.
(18:19):
These are my people that are customerfacing that are in the trenches working.
I've been able to work myway into more of a back end,
marketing, accounting position.
So I still want to hear all those things.
Because if we've had 20 guests come in thelast week asking for a beer that we don't
have, maybe we should bring in that beer.
(18:39):
One of the things too that I wantedto talk about is, a very concerted
choice, decision to really focuson getting customers who are
local versus relying on tourists.
Talk to us about that business decisionbecause it is a business decision.
Your marketing andeverything is impacted by it.
Yeah, so I think that tourism isa really volatile place to be.
(19:04):
And in the Sault in particularJune, July, August, even September.
Those are good months becausepeople are driving up here and
spending time in the community.
But what happens in October throughMay, and there's not the same amount
of people and I grew up here I'm,really proud of the community.
I'm proud of what we'vedone to the community.
(19:27):
And so it's really I really wantto support our locals and I want
to say thank you to that by reallysaying you're the people that we find
I don't want to say of value.
But you're the people that keep us open.
You're the people thatmake Wicked possible.
So that's just what we do.
And also in the summer, sometimes touristsare very grouchy and not, and I have
(19:50):
three kids, so I understand that drivingin a car and it's a lot and whatever,
but like our locals are just like reallynice And laid back and they're fun.
And it's fun to get to know peopleand have that relationship with them,
where you see them week after week.
And you can say, Hey, youhad this big, interview.
What, how did that work out?
Did you get the job?
Or, Hey, I see it's your birthday.
(20:11):
Happy Birthday.
And it's, I just like it.
It really, I think, goes back toembracing that hospitality, and
this sense of the kitchen table.
I always grew up around mygrandparents kitchen table.
And we would eat, and drink,and snack and just, share
memories or experiences or ideas.
And that's really what I like about hereis I think we're doing the same thing and
(20:33):
kind of modeling that aspect of somethingthat's near and dear to my heart.
You made a comment about thingsthat you're doing in the community.
Talk to us about that.
So we just finished our ninth annualBattle of the Breweries which is something
that we started in 2015, on a whim.
And the idea behind it is that allof our proceeds for the event go
(20:56):
to benefit our hospice of the U.P.
Which is, I think, the lastfree hospice in Michigan.
I think hospice is an amazing causeand it touches a lot of people.
Two of my grandparentshave gone through hospice.
And I just don't know howthat grieving process would
have went without them there.
I feel very strongly about it.
I am so proud to be in a positionthat we can do something to
(21:18):
support such an amazing cause.
Battle of the Breweries turnsinto, we have eight taps for beer.
And, we invite two breweries.
They each get four taps.
And Kat comes up with thisbeautiful menu, four courses.
And we give the brewers the menu.
And they do whatever theywant to bring four beers.
(21:41):
We have 80, we cap out at 80 tickets.
We sell tickets for 50 a piece.
Each person gets four tickets to vote.
And so we count ticketsat the end of the event.
And the person that has, thebrewery that has the most tickets,
they're our champion and they getinvited back the following year.
(22:02):
But it's a great, It's a great night.
We're really fortunate that the communitydonates to a live auction which Tim
and Lindsay Ellis at Eagle Radiohosts, they're our MCs for the night.
And So this year we raised betweenour bar sales, the servers donated
their tips back to hospice it's alot of smaller buckets and it all
(22:23):
pulls together, I think we raisedalmost $10, 000 this past year for it.
And it's a ton of fun.
In the second year, we had thisthey're a group of retired guys that
all get together and play poker.
And in 2016, Al Suggett and his niece,Kelly Avery, they were dancing in
Dancing with the Stars for hospice.
We partnered with them as the fundraiser,and all of their poker crew came in
(22:47):
and helped us pour beer and run food.
And they had so much fun thatthey come back year after year.
So I have a hundred percentvolunteer staff that night.
And then, but we also havecommunity members that just come
in and volunteer to do that.
So it's always great to see theguys and they've done it so long
now they're like same as last year.
And I'm like, yep.
(23:08):
That's perfect.
if somebody's coming here, ifthey've never been here before, what
would be like a dish or two thatyou would recommend that they try?
Oh, so I am personally a littlesick of eating the Construction Dip.
However, I feel like that isquintessential Wicked Sister
is this construction dip.
Garlic, bacon, cheesy goodness.
(23:30):
It's like we serve it with our housecooked chips and soft pretzel bites.
And it is, it's deliciousand it's addicting.
So that I think, if you've neverbeen here before and you're not
afraid of some like good cheesycomfort food, that has to be there.
And then, I think, so we runthese seasonal menus that are
(23:50):
usually six to eight weeks long.
I would pick something off of that.
We're coming up on a new one.
It'll hit Wednesday, as long aseverything goes according to plan.
And so wait.
If I was coming in next week,I would get the Bistro Steaks.
So they're steak medallions,grilled to order.
Kat made this amazing bourboncream sauce to go on top of it.
(24:14):
And it's just like delicate, but allthe flavors come through on it, and it's
such a wonderful complement to the beef.
And then it's baby baker potatoes, ina green garlic butter, which if anybody
was familiar with the green garlicsteak, it is the exact same butter.
It was so popular that we'relike we've got to use it again.
So potatoes will be tossed in thatand then some grilled asparagus.
(24:36):
That's and then we're gonnahave, oh, jalapeno popper dip
is gonna come up on the menu.
That's, I'm a sucker for jalapeno poppers.
So I might actually skip constructiondip to get the popper dip.
So there's gonna be aspicy chicken sandwich.
I really don't think you can go wrong.
Even if you're vegetarian, our blackbean burgers, we make them in house.
(24:56):
And they're not frozen.
so there's really something I thinkfor everybody except for vegans.
We're not very good atvegans, Like you can eat here.
You just don't have a lot of choices
if somebody is listening tothis, and they want to come by,
check out the Wicked Sister.
Maybe find you online.
What's the best way for them to do that?
Wicked Sister Sault S-A-U-L-T dot com.
(25:17):
And we just redid our website.
So I'm pretty proud of it.
I really didn't do much.
Somebody else made it all becauseI can't be great at everything.
And but beautiful pictures of our food.
So if you were curious to see what itlooks like yeah, we're still working on
getting all of the pictures up there.
But we try really hard to keepthat moving along so you can
see what you're getting into.
(25:38):
Right.
Cathy.
I'm now hungry.
EXcellent.
I know.
We're almost open.
Thank you so much for takingtime to be with us today.
I really appreciate it.
Thank you!
This was a ton of fun.
Yes, it was.
And for our audience, you can alwaysroll on over to TotalMichigan.
com, click on Cathy's interview, and getthe links that she mentioned down below.
We'll see you next week when wetalk to another Michigander doing
some pretty extraordinary things.
(25:59):
We'll see you then.
I had no management experience.
(00:01):
I didn't know how to do an order.
I wasn't really comfortablechecking with vendors.
And it was, there was a lot ofstuff that needed to happen.
And thankfully we had a reallygood staff in the beginning.
There were four or five peoplethat had as much or more experience
than I did and really had a passionfor helping to build a business.
(00:23):
Hello everyone and welcome back to TotalMichigan, where we interview ordinary
people doing extraordinary things.
I'm your host Cliff DuVernois.
I am up in Sault Ste.
Marie, and one of the restaurants thatI always make it a point to visit when
I'm up there is the Wicked Sister.
And I come here because not only isthe food good, but the service is good.
And if the food is good and theservice is good, then the person behind
(00:44):
it must be doing something right.
Because having a restaurant isdefinitely not an easy business to be in.
Today I'm sitting with Cathy Howell.
Owner of the Wicked Sister in Sault Ste.
Marie.
Cathy.
How are you?
I'm wonderful.
How are you?
I'm doing awesome Thank you for asking.
Why don't you tell us where you're from?
Where did you grow up?
I grew up here.
Born and raised.
So pretty quick story, butI, My family's all from here.
(01:06):
We're a huge family.
My dad is one of six.
My mom is one of five.
And most people settled here.
So a huge extended family.
I moved to Chicago to go to school.
I lasted a semester because theatricalset design apparently wasn't really
what I needed to be doing with my life.
And a few years later,I moved to Baltimore.
(01:27):
Because I needed to spread my wings.
And when you have family that'sinvolved with the police department
and involved with all of these thingswithin the community I really wanted
to be able to make my own mistakesand not have to answer to my parents
unless I made the national news.
So it was a good place tobe for, probably three, four
years, I think I was out there.
When you talk about spreadingyour wings in Baltimore, what
(01:49):
was it you were doing there?
I waited tables.
I was hanging out my, one ofmy roommates was a musician.
So I spent a lot of time at open mics.
And he was also anapprenticing tattoo artist.
It's like all of the things thatyou do in your twenties that you
might be don't love as an adult.
so you're waiting tables, but
Obviously now we're fastforwarding and you're owning
(02:13):
a restaurant.
So.
Is being a restauranteur just somethingthat's always been in your blood?
Is it something that you stumbled into?
How did you get on this path?
I started working at Antlers,here in the Sault, when I was 14.
And I loved it.
I loved the speed and the fast pace.
And the people that workedthere, the people that came in.
I loved it.
By the time I was 16, I distinctlyremember chatting with Phyllis Kinney,
(02:37):
one of the owners, and she was likewhat do you want to do when you grow up?
And I said, I want to own a restaurant.
And she said, oh, honey, no.
And And, right, because Isaw how difficult it was.
so I tried to do other things.
I went to school to be atheatrical set designer.
I went to school to bea social worker teacher.
And none of them fit.
I kept always goingback to the restaurant.
(02:59):
And I thought, why not?
So I figured what I would end up doingis having a career, and then retire,
and then this would be my hobby.
And then in 2014, my grandpa boughtwhat was the Gin Mill, at auction.
And he gave it to my mom and three aunts.
They had minimal restaurant experience,so they tapped me to be their GM.
(03:19):
And I guess the rest is history.
And they really didn'tlove it the way that I did.
So after a few months they started talkingwith Grandpa and got his blessing that
I would buy it and be the sole owner.
And then they could allgo back into retirement.
Let's take a step back here for a second.
Because you were talking abouthow you were working at the
restaurant, the Antlers in St.
(03:41):
Marie.
And you really startedto fall in love with it.
What was it, about the restaurantbusiness, that you fell in love with.
What I loved the most at the time wasthis like in spirit of hospitality, right?
This welcoming people in.
And I think what's really excitingto me is that the restaurant
(04:01):
industry seems to be in thisreally weird spot of, we fill a.
basic human need, right?
Everyone needs to eatand nourish their bodies.
We just provide, a convenience levelto it, or maybe an experience to it.
And having that having that really justbrought me so to welcome people in.
(04:21):
And even today, like welcomingpeople in and this is our house.
We spend more time here, wakinghours than probably anywhere
else, you know in our daily lives.
So to have that sense of pride andto welcome people in and to make
them feel appreciated and comfortableis sometimes a challenge, but
it's a really great place to be.
(04:42):
Grandpa gets the place at auction.
And your mom and hersisters are running it.
You're the one that clearlyshows a passion in this.
So the question I got ultimatelyfor you is, 'cause you talked
about your background there.
How is it that you step up and startrunning a restaurant without really,
you worked at a restaurant, but
It was trial by fire.
Okay.
All right.
(05:02):
Before Wicked opened the highest positionthat I had held was I was the lead server.
For maybe six months in Baltimore.
That was it.
I had no management experience.
I didn't know how to do an order.
I wasn't really comfortablechecking with vendors.
And it was, there was a lot ofstuff that needed to happen.
And it was just little by little.
(05:23):
And thankfully we had a reallygood staff in the beginning.
There were four or five peoplethat had as much or more experience
than I did and really had a passionfor helping to build a business.
And if you've never been inthat startup situation, it's
either for you or it's not.
Because we changed things soquickly to go, oh, we thought that
(05:45):
was gonna work, but clearly no.
Let's try this, plan B or C or and so on.
And really, my cousin Char she's been heresince day one and started in the kitchen.
I'd never cooked before.
So I stood in her way untilshe taught me to cook.
And we got our butts handed to us,quite a few lunch shifts right?
Mostly because she's, can't carry ateam of two and I wasn't that great.
(06:08):
And Bob's been heresince February of 2015.
Those are my two longestrunning employees.
And we just had a lot ofpeople that cared and helped.
And I think that's what startedthis internal culture at Wicked.
Where we wanted everybody to be successfuland I didn't always have the answers.
And I wasn't too proud to tellpeople I don't know what to do.
(06:33):
So we would come together andsay, okay what seems to be the
best solution to this issue?
And that really worked.
And it helped and it ingrainedpeople into Wicked and it made it
this family and this amazing thing.
It worked.
I don't know if I had to do it overagain but I would know more, right?
But that's how it happens.
And you just have to, I think, keeppushing on and not be so proud that
(06:57):
you pretend to, have all the answers.
you come here and you start workingdid you have a vision for what you
wanted this place to really be?
Or was it something that justorganically evolved over Time?
So I wish that I had this likereally amazing answer of Yes,
this is exactly what we wanted.
(07:17):
And so during the planning processafter grandpa had bought the bar.
And we spent about a year,renovating it and had to wait
for licensing to come through.
So we had lots of time to think and plan.
And if you think that my grandpa andhis girlfriend were in their 80s at
the time, and I have aunts and uncles,parents that run, 70s to 50s, and then,
(07:39):
I was in my 30s, I have children, Ihave cousins that are in their 20s,
it really became this chaotic beehiveof everybody wanted something right?
My grandpa wanted the 75cent Bud Light shells.
And just a good old fashionedroast beef sandwich because
you can't get that anymore.
And I'm like maybethere's a reason for it.
But okay, under consideration andwhitefish croquettes were thrown
(08:02):
out and you know It's just all ofthese ideas that you know really
need It was really frustrating, I'mnot gonna lie, it was really hard.
But it, it really becamethis place for everybody.
Because we had so many differentgenerations that wanted something that
represented them or something that madethem happy that we just cast a wide net.
(08:24):
And it became this place for everybody.
I think even now today we try and bevery inclusive and welcome everybody.
So that's how it all came to be.
And then really in terms of the menuwe, we had to start with what we knew.
We couldn't be these thisgreat culinary experts.
Because I didn't know I know I couldn'tteach somebody how to cook a steak, right?
(08:47):
I couldn't cook a steak.
And so we really started with a verybasic menu with just some really
unique flavors, some really uniqueingredients, but when you break it
down, for a very long time, we werea burger and chicken sandwich place.
When you first got thisplace, it was just a bar.
And then at some point youadded the kitchen on the back.
When you add a restaurant on the back,you're adding a whole level of complexity.
(09:10):
You're bringing in all of theseother state organizations.
You've got inspections that go on.
You got to make sure that your foodis good and the food typically doesn't
have a high margin like booze does.
Why did you decide to add the kitchen on?
So I think, and just from whatI've witnessed, in the community,
the bar industry's dying.
And it's been accelerated,I think, even since COVID.
(09:32):
We can back up to 2014 when we werestill, I was trying to convince my
grandpa into investing into putting in akitchen because it's not cheap and it's
It, a bar brings a different clientele.
And I didn't know that we would be thishigh end cocktail place, we were just,
we would have served mixed drinks andsome beer And that didn't feel right
(09:56):
and it didn't feel very profitable tome for what we were doing and I worked
at a restaurant, at Zorba's, for nineyears off and on, through marriage and
babies and all of this, and I loved it.
So if I was going to jump on boardand leave a job that I loved, I
really wanted to make sure that itwas going to be a stable career.
(10:16):
And I didn't see thathappening without a kitchen.
How basic was your menuwhen you first opened?
It wasn't I'm trying to think ofwhat some of our original things
where we started with like aMaryland style crab dip, right?
Because we knew that the Drunken Cowwhich has been a signature number one
seller on our menu since we opened.
And it's beer, cheese andbacon and beer onions.
(10:38):
We did a Dirty Uncle, which isstill on our menu, fondly named
after one of my dirty uncles.
We have a bourbon chicken sandwich that weretired and then brought back after a few
years where it was bourbon sauce, or wewere doing our signature barbecue sauce.
So we were really takingcomfortable, familiar items and
then just putting a twist on it.
(10:59):
And even today if people come in andthey're like, I just want a cheeseburger.
Yes, that is okay.
We judge a little bit but it's fine.
Right.
Awesome.
it's fine
For our we're I gonna take a quickbreak and thank our sponsors.
When we come back, Cathy's going tocontinue to share with us the interesting
journey of the Wicked Sister and theimpact it's having on the local community.
We'll see you after the break.
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(11:21):
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Enter your email address andjoin our awesome community today.
Hello, everyone, and welcome back toTotal Michigan, where we interview
ordinary Michiganders doing somepretty extraordinary things.
I'm your host, Cliff DuVernois.
Today, we're sitting with Cathy Howellof the Wicked Sister up in Sault Ste.
Marie.
And Cathy, before the breakwe were talking about the very
interesting journey that therestaurant has had over the years.
(12:26):
And how you came in and startedreally making the place your own.
Talk to us about how you come up withthe menu items that you have on here.
Talk to us about how you make that happen.
In the beginning, it was, myself andCharlene and, the handful of cooks
that we had in the back and it reallystarted out with, geez, this sounds good.
(12:50):
Let's try it.
And that was successful.
Now I hired a chef in 2020, 2019,and she started just as a line cook.
And then we grew in need and then hadthe budget to hire a kitchen manager.
And she's since been promoted to chef.
And she does an amazing job ofcollecting ideas from everybody else.
(13:12):
Or, again, geez, this sounds good.
And that's really whereour menu comes from.
Kat just has this amazing abilityto do really wonderful things
and fancy techniques that wereally weren't able to do before.
So we do have steak on the menu now.
Because she is able to trainpeople to cook a steak.
(13:33):
So having her on board has reallytaken our menu to the next level.
And because she's a fantastic leader andis doing all these creative things that
we've had really high quality peoplecome in and want to work underneath
of her, which has then bolsteredkind of the, I call them the nameless
(13:53):
faceless army in the back that Theyjust, they do such amazing things.
Things I didn't think wereever going to be possible here.
Just a complete game changeron, on what we're able to do.
Why did you make thedecision to hire a chef?
So I think it really camedown to a business decision.
In I'm a front of house girl, right?
(14:15):
So I'm not so much a bartender.
But that's where my domainis in front of the house,
greeting guests, waiting tables.
That's what I know.
It's what I love.
Back a house.
It's not, I'm not strong at it.
And I don't love it the way thatother people like cat and people that
are used to a kitchen that she does.
So it really came down to thebusiness has grown to a point that I
(14:38):
can't effectively manage both sides.
And I need to bringsomebody in to do that.
So she became that's just howit started and no regrets.
She was 22 I believe, when Ihired her as a kitchen manager.
She has blown my mind on all ofthe things that she's capable of.
And the food is outstanding.
(14:59):
But really, truly her as a leader hasreally, she turned kitchen morale around.
And it's just been, it'sbeen a really great thing.
You talked about, business wasdoing good so that afforded you the
opportunity to hire, a kitchen manager,hire a chef, you were talking about
how it was starting to really growand you couldn't manage the front of
the house and the back of the house.
What do you attribute this growth to?
(15:23):
Ooh I think, right, I think it's the ideathat we offer great food, we offer great
service, so you don't have to choose.
I've been victim where I go outto eat, and I might really love
the food, but I don't reallylove the service, or vice versa.
And I think here you reallytruly get both sides of it.
(15:45):
And you get this experience of, we, wecan have beer, we have a great wine list,
we've got really interesting cocktails.
But also we have foodthat's consistently good.
And one of the things, I thinkthat's been the biggest compliment
that I've heard several times isthat people ask if we're a chain.
Because not only did they comein once and they loved it.
(16:07):
But then they came back andit might be a year later.
It might be three months later andthey had similarly a great experience.
And they said, we've onlyseen this happen in chains.
And I'm like no, I wouldlove to be a chain, but no.
And then another thing too that pointedout is I was out with dinner with
some friends the other night and wewere talking about How it seems like
(16:30):
when it comes especially when it comesto restaurants that if the owner is,
absent or really doesn't care then itseems like the employees don't care.
And you have a really substandardexperience when you do that
Do you agree with that?
Oh 100%.
And it's so it's so amazing.
I went to South Dakota inAugust for a family wedding.
I was gone for 10 days.
(16:52):
While I was at the dude ranchwhere the wedding was, I had no
internet and I had no cell service.
And I knew going in that'show it was going to be.
And I just told him you guys are goingto have to figure it out because I
can't, you won't be able to call me.
Wait, you come back as abusiness owner after 10 days.
And you think, what fires amI going to have to put out?
(17:12):
There was nothing!
Nothing!
When we finally got into cellservice and we're on the drive back.
And my phone's not blowing up.
And I think exactly did the place burndown and everyone just walked away.
Like what is this?
No, it just ran business as usual.
I actually think it runs a littlebit better if I'm not here.
I tend to overthink things.
I tend to get a little bit anxious.
(17:33):
And everybody does carethey have a vested interest.
So it is as a business owner one ofthe coolest things to have a group We
usually have about 24, 25 employeeson staff That come in every day and
they give a hundred and ten percent.
And they honestly they shame me as aformer employee because I don't know
that I always did that And they'rejust I think the world of them I would
(17:56):
walk through fire for every singleperson that we have on a schedule.
But they really truly are amazing.
And if something's not right or if theythink that we can do something better,
Most of them feel very comfortable comingto me and saying, Hey, could we, what do
you think about doing it this way instead?
And I love it because Istill, we're eight years in.
I still don't have all the answersand right day in and day out.
(18:19):
These are my people that are customerfacing that are in the trenches working.
I've been able to work myway into more of a back end,
marketing, accounting position.
So I still want to hear all those things.
Because if we've had 20 guests come in thelast week asking for a beer that we don't
have, maybe we should bring in that beer.
(18:39):
One of the things too that I wantedto talk about is, a very concerted
choice, decision to really focuson getting customers who are
local versus relying on tourists.
Talk to us about that business decisionbecause it is a business decision.
Your marketing andeverything is impacted by it.
Yeah, so I think that tourism isa really volatile place to be.
(19:04):
And in the Sault in particularJune, July, August, even September.
Those are good months becausepeople are driving up here and
spending time in the community.
But what happens in October throughMay, and there's not the same amount
of people and I grew up here I'm,really proud of the community.
I'm proud of what we'vedone to the community.
(19:27):
And so it's really I really wantto support our locals and I want
to say thank you to that by reallysaying you're the people that we find
I don't want to say of value.
But you're the people that keep us open.
You're the people thatmake Wicked possible.
So that's just what we do.
And also in the summer, sometimes touristsare very grouchy and not, and I have
(19:50):
three kids, so I understand that drivingin a car and it's a lot and whatever,
but like our locals are just like reallynice And laid back and they're fun.
And it's fun to get to know peopleand have that relationship with them,
where you see them week after week.
And you can say, Hey, youhad this big, interview.
What, how did that work out?
Did you get the job?
Or, Hey, I see it's your birthday.
(20:11):
Happy Birthday.
And it's, I just like it.
It really, I think, goes back toembracing that hospitality, and
this sense of the kitchen table.
I always grew up around mygrandparents kitchen table.
And we would eat, and drink,and snack and just, share
memories or experiences or ideas.
And that's really what I like about hereis I think we're doing the same thing and
(20:33):
kind of modeling that aspect of somethingthat's near and dear to my heart.
You made a comment about thingsthat you're doing in the community.
Talk to us about that.
So we just finished our ninth annualBattle of the Breweries which is something
that we started in 2015, on a whim.
And the idea behind it is that allof our proceeds for the event go
(20:56):
to benefit our hospice of the U.P.
Which is, I think, the lastfree hospice in Michigan.
I think hospice is an amazing causeand it touches a lot of people.
Two of my grandparentshave gone through hospice.
And I just don't know howthat grieving process would
have went without them there.
I feel very strongly about it.
I am so proud to be in a positionthat we can do something to
(21:18):
support such an amazing cause.
Battle of the Breweries turnsinto, we have eight taps for beer.
And, we invite two breweries.
They each get four taps.
And Kat comes up with thisbeautiful menu, four courses.
And we give the brewers the menu.
And they do whatever theywant to bring four beers.
(21:41):
We have 80, we cap out at 80 tickets.
We sell tickets for 50 a piece.
Each person gets four tickets to vote.
And so we count ticketsat the end of the event.
And the person that has, thebrewery that has the most tickets,
they're our champion and they getinvited back the following year.
(22:02):
But it's a great, It's a great night.
We're really fortunate that the communitydonates to a live auction which Tim
and Lindsay Ellis at Eagle Radiohosts, they're our MCs for the night.
And So this year we raised betweenour bar sales, the servers donated
their tips back to hospice it's alot of smaller buckets and it all
(22:23):
pulls together, I think we raisedalmost $10, 000 this past year for it.
And it's a ton of fun.
In the second year, we had thisthey're a group of retired guys that
all get together and play poker.
And in 2016, Al Suggett and his niece,Kelly Avery, they were dancing in
Dancing with the Stars for hospice.
We partnered with them as the fundraiser,and all of their poker crew came in
(22:47):
and helped us pour beer and run food.
And they had so much fun thatthey come back year after year.
So I have a hundred percentvolunteer staff that night.
And then, but we also havecommunity members that just come
in and volunteer to do that.
So it's always great to see theguys and they've done it so long
now they're like same as last year.
And I'm like, yep.
(23:08):
That's perfect.
if somebody's coming here, ifthey've never been here before, what
would be like a dish or two thatyou would recommend that they try?
Oh, so I am personally a littlesick of eating the Construction Dip.
However, I feel like that isquintessential Wicked Sister
is this construction dip.
Garlic, bacon, cheesy goodness.
(23:30):
It's like we serve it with our housecooked chips and soft pretzel bites.
And it is, it's deliciousand it's addicting.
So that I think, if you've neverbeen here before and you're not
afraid of some like good cheesycomfort food, that has to be there.
And then, I think, so we runthese seasonal menus that are
(23:50):
usually six to eight weeks long.
I would pick something off of that.
We're coming up on a new one.
It'll hit Wednesday, as long aseverything goes according to plan.
And so wait.
If I was coming in next week,I would get the Bistro Steaks.
So they're steak medallions,grilled to order.
Kat made this amazing bourboncream sauce to go on top of it.
(24:14):
And it's just like delicate, but allthe flavors come through on it, and it's
such a wonderful complement to the beef.
And then it's baby baker potatoes, ina green garlic butter, which if anybody
was familiar with the green garlicsteak, it is the exact same butter.
It was so popular that we'relike we've got to use it again.
So potatoes will be tossed in thatand then some grilled asparagus.
(24:36):
That's and then we're gonnahave, oh, jalapeno popper dip
is gonna come up on the menu.
That's, I'm a sucker for jalapeno poppers.
So I might actually skip constructiondip to get the popper dip.
So there's gonna be aspicy chicken sandwich.
I really don't think you can go wrong.
Even if you're vegetarian, our blackbean burgers, we make them in house.
(24:56):
And they're not frozen.
so there's really something I thinkfor everybody except for vegans.
We're not very good atvegans, Like you can eat here.
You just don't have a lot of choices
if somebody is listening tothis, and they want to come by,
check out the Wicked Sister.
Maybe find you online.
What's the best way for them to do that?
Wicked Sister Sault S-A-U-L-T dot com.
(25:17):
And we just redid our website.
So I'm pretty proud of it.
I really didn't do much.
Somebody else made it all becauseI can't be great at everything.
And but beautiful pictures of our food.
So if you were curious to see what itlooks like yeah, we're still working on
getting all of the pictures up there.
But we try really hard to keepthat moving along so you can
see what you're getting into.
(25:38):
Right.
Cathy.
I'm now hungry.
EXcellent.
I know.
We're almost open.
Thank you so much for takingtime to be with us today.
I really appreciate it.
Thank you!
This was a ton of fun.
Yes, it was.
And for our audience, you can alwaysroll on over to TotalMichigan.
com, click on Cathy's interview, and getthe links that she mentioned down below.
We'll see you next week when wetalk to another Michigander doing
some pretty extraordinary things.
(25:59):
We'll see you then.
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