September 5, 2025 • 32 mins
From War to Museum: Welcome to the USS Silversides.
In this episode of Total Michigan, host Cliff DuVernois explores the fascinating history of the USS Silversides, a World War II submarine located at the museum in Muskegon, Michigan. With guest Tom Johnson, a tour guide at the museum, the discussion covers the submarine's service during the war, its remarkable preservation and transformation into a museum, and the unique stories and memories shared by visitors.
Listeners will learn:
- The construction and missions of the Silversides,
- Its journey to becoming a training and museum vessel,
- The personal histories of those who served.
Links:
USS Silversides (Website)
USS Silversides (Facebook)
Address:
1346 Bluff St
Muskegon, MI 49441
For Total Michigan:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tom Johnson (00:00):
There's one story that always sticks in my mind, one of the tour guides
told me that they were going throughthe boat and there was a gentleman who
served on a similar boat, not this one.
When they were in the cruisearea, sat down on, he said,
this would've been my bunk.
And he was sitting there and then theguide was talking, and there were tears
rolling down this gentleman's face.
And he said, I sat here through,oh, maybe 75 depth charges.
(00:24):
And it's like a, a shotgungoing off next to your head.
Cliff DuVernois (00:29):
Hello everyone and welcome back to Total Michigan where
we interviewer near Michigan's doingsome pretty extraordinary things.
I'm your host Cliff DuVernois.
One of the things that I alwayslove to do is I love to see, Old,
military style, vehicles, boats,whatever, that are actually museums.
And it gives us a direct linkto our history as a nation.
(00:51):
But also too is how so many membersthroughout the Midwest and especially
through Michigan, we've had so manyof our family members serve through
throughout the various wars, throughWorld War I, world War ii, Vietnam,
Korea, even up into Iraq and Afghanistan.
And during my research for theshow, I actually came across this
incredible find where it's actuallya submarine museum that you can
(01:15):
actually go onto, you can visit, youcan walk around, you can touch things.
It's great.
And so I'm over in Muskegon today,and sitting with me is Tom Johnson.
He's one of the guides here at the USSSilversides Museum located in Muskegon.
Tom, how are you?
I'm good.
How are you doing today?
(01:36):
I am doing awesome.
Thank you for asking.
And also thank you forletting us come on your boat.
No problem.
I'm happy to have you.
So with that being said, Tom, why don'tyou tell us what is the USS Silversides?
Tom Johnson (01:50):
It's a museum in Muskegon, as you said.
We're out here on the channel between,uh, Muskegon Lake and Lake Michigan.
It started out actually as a generalkind of ship museum, so we do have a
back stock of a lot of different typesof things in there, but it, it became
more about the Silversides more and more.
Uh, she's a World War II submarine,famous for being the number
(02:12):
three boat out in the Pacific.
Uh, that's far as, sinkings go.
and the museum itself is somewhatdedicated towards World War ii.
What happened?
And then there's, um, a lot aboutships, of course, but there's a lot
about, armies and general, you know,things about, POWs, nurses, all sorts
of different things inside the museum.
Cliff DuVernois (02:33):
Before we jump into more about the history of the museum and what
people can expect when they come here.
Let's talk a little bit about you.
Where are you from?
Where did you grow up?
Tom Johnson (02:44):
I'm actually from New Jersey.
A Jersey boy.
Yes.
Yeah, yeah.
Um, New Jersey.
I've lived a kind of a move around life.
I did work at a 1850s reproductionvillage in New Jersey for a while.
Sure.
So I got into the history and stufflike that, and then I did move to
California for a little bit and I workedon the Queen Mary, the old Ocean liner.
(03:04):
Out Long Beach.
Yeah.
Long Beach, California.
And I was, have been interested inships in general of any types, sailing
ships, steam ships, all of that.
So it wasn't hard for me to learn.
The basic tours plus everything else.
So I could talk straight for an hour aboutthe Queen Mary and the Silversides too.
Cliff DuVernois (03:27):
So if we were in Long Beach, I'd say let's go to
the Queen Mary, but let's stick tothe USS uh, silversides for now.
So let me ask you this question, 'causeyou made a comment about how you've always
been interested in like old time ships.
Where do you think thisinterest came from?
Tom Johnson (03:42):
Um, when I was young, I lived on a lake near here, spring
Lake, and I had a motorboat, a littletiny fishing motorboat and a little
sailboat, and it might've been then,I don't know, I got into World War II
history like a lot of kids did back then.
Yep.
That was early teen years andstuff like that was charged.
Cliff DuVernois (04:00):
Yeah, I was there too.
Yeah.
Tom Johnson (04:01):
Ships in general?
I don't know.
I don't know.
It was a sailor in my last life.
Who knows?
Cliff DuVernois (04:08):
Now, what brought you to Michigan?
Tom Johnson (04:11):
Um, I had been here when I was a teenager, as I said, and then
moved back east and then moved out west.
Um, I met at.
A lady online.
Oh, there's a
Cliff DuVernois (04:19):
story there.
Yeah.
Tom Johnson (04:20):
Yep.
36 years later after, uh, from the highschool here in Michigan and uh, we got
together in California and then we movedFlorida and then she said, you know what?
Let's go to Michigan.
It's a beautiful state.
Prices for houses are reasonable.
So we were able to come up hereand get a house and she saw
the ad for the silversides.
(04:41):
It was looking for somebody for Fridayand Saturday nights to do overnights.
Uh, we have scouts thatsleep on board the ship.
They have for years.
So I said, well, I reallyneed a full-time job.
And so she said, when we were justgetting ready to move, why don't you
call ahead and talk to the director?
And I did.
And he said, uh, well, I'mlooking for somebody to be in
the store and I need somebody tohelp with these other programs.
(05:02):
And I said, I can do all of that.
I'm kind of a jack of all trades, right?
So he gave me a full-time job.
So I walked right in.
I didn't have to go to Home Depot.
Cliff DuVernois (05:11):
Nice.
And when you talked about before, 'causethis is a term I've never heard of before.
We have the Silversides andit's floating here in the water.
You talked about scouts thatactually sleep on the ship.
Tom Johnson (05:22):
We have a active program to get well, we'd like more than the
scouts, but, uh, generally the scouts,uh, boy Scouts, girl Scouts, cub Scouts.
They sleep onboard thesubmarine as do, yep.
So they, they, uh, we have a minimum todo that and they sign up, they pick a
date and they come out here and we havemaybe a program or two inside for them,
(05:43):
or maybe let them just explore the museum,whatever they feel like doing, you know,
have a cookout or something like that.
And they actually go in and sleep on theactual bunks in the silversides overnight.
Cliff DuVernois (05:55):
Now, as far as you know, a little bit more about your backstory,
'cause I do wanna spend some time talkingabout the silversides and, and the
history and the people, uh, that servedon this boat for the historical comp.
Is it just something thatdid that you already know?
Is it something thatyou learned by osmosis?
Where did that study come from?
Tom Johnson (06:12):
For the silverside?
Yes.
Bizarrely enough.
I was never really into submarines.
It was battleships.
Oh, okay.
I love battleships, but.
When, uh, Pearl Harbor happened, the, uh,fleet, you know, the ships were decimated.
The aircraft carriersluckily weren't there.
The war was changing, you know?
Yep.
And no longer battleships,you know, blazing away at each
(06:34):
other, airplanes and submarines.
So, right away, after PearlHarbor, the, uh, Admiral of the
Day said to the submarine fleet,and this is not QT anymore, but
go out there and sink everything.
With a Japanese flag on it.
So it was unrestricted warfare.
So normally Congress gets involvedwith stuff, anything like that.
(06:54):
Sure.
But he was just like, thisis all we really have.
So between the airplanes and thesubmarines that really won the war.
For the Americans in the Pacific.
Definitely.
Cliff DuVernois (07:07):
So now when we're talking about, we're sliding right into the
history of the, of the Silversides here.
'cause we, you know, everybody isfamiliar with the fact that, you
know, December 7th, 1941 mm-hmm.
Right.
Is when, you know PearlHarbor was attacked.
Yeah.
And the US declared war onJapan, which then brought, you
know, us to war with Germany.
This boat was pro produced.
(07:27):
Pushed out how many days afterJuly se, or sorry, December 7th.
Tom Johnson (07:32):
Well, they started building here in November of 40, uh,
may Island Naval Shipyard in California.
They were building 'em also inManitoc across the lake here in,
uh, Groton, Connecticut and Newport.
So they were building in severalstations around throughout.
The design came from about two decadesworth of research and work into developing
(07:53):
what turned into a fleet submarine.
So these submarines were equippedto go out with the fleet.
Now, since that happened with Pearl Harborand there was kind of no fleet, it didn't
matter because these had a range of,you know, somewhere around 11,000 miles.
Cliff DuVernois (08:10):
Amazing.
Yeah.
Now a lot of the design, 'cause you talkedabout it was like two decades of design.
It's important to note thatsubmarines actually started making
their debe debut, if my history'scorrect, like during the Civil War.
Oh
Tom Johnson (08:22):
yeah,
Cliff DuVernois (08:22):
yeah.
The Hunley.
Yeah.
But they weren't really used, or I guessthe technology really got pushed forward
thanks to World War I, but all of asudden now when they see the value during
World War I, that's when like World Warii, you started seeing like fleets of
these being deployed and the technology.
Tom Johnson (08:40):
Well, if you look at the pos, uh, the Atlantic War,
that's all the Germans really had.
Every time they sent something out,the Bismarck or whatever, it got sunk.
So the surface vessels weren't workingfor them, so they put out almost a
thousand submarines in the Atlantic.
Sweet.
Most.
So they were Yeah, trying, theywere trying to stem the ti tide
of supplies coming from Americabefore we even joined the war.
(09:04):
Yeah.
'cause we weren't
Cliff DuVernois (09:05):
officially part of the war, but we, we were definitely
supporting the war effort goingon, especially over in Europe.
Tom Johnson (09:10):
Right.
So submarines
Cliff DuVernois (09:12):
became their main weapon out in the Atlantic.
So talk to us now getting a little bitmore specific about the USS silver side.
So.
Uh, it came out notlong after December 7th.
Tom Johnson (09:23):
So, uh, the December 15th she was, uh, commissioned.
Yeah.
Cliff DuVernois (09:27):
Yeah.
So talk to us a little bit about,so when the first, when the boat
first gets out there, talk to us.
First off I'd like to know.
Let's talk about the crew.
Let's talk about like the kindof men that served on here.
'cause you made an interestingcomment before about how serving
on a sub is purely voluntary.
Tom Johnson (09:44):
Oh yeah.
It always has been on the, well,at least on the American side.
So if you can't get through thosehatches fast enough, or you have trouble
getting up and down the ladders, youmight not want to be on a submarine.
You don't have to be on a submarine.
So average male height in theforties was about five eight.
You know, you have yoursix footers and stuff.
Gentlemen mentioned that before.
People.
(10:04):
We hear a lot of storiesgoing in and out of the boat.
I bet, I bet.
You know, relatives of friends andpeople who had been on the boat before
and stuff like that, and they, you know,confirmed this guy was, he said he was
like 6, 6 1 or something like that.
So it's up to you really.
Um, in the beginning, uh, whenthe ship first set out, uh, most
(10:25):
of 'em were in Pearl Harbor.
There was a, you know, kind ofsubmarine base there that by the
way, the Japanese didn't bomb.
They didn't touch the submarines.
Oh, interesting.
Okay.
All right.
So, and they were offering hazard pay.
These, you still get a hazardpay, so on top of your regular
pay, you get extra money.
You're coming out of the.
Thirties, you're comingout of a depression.
(10:47):
You we're gonna have awar, we're going to war.
Guys who were volunteering,maybe they heard that you get
that extra money on a submarine.
Let's try a submarine.
Supposedly, quote unquote, you getthe best food in, in the service,
but you'll get, submarines willlaugh when you mention that.
But they had, yeah, we did get theextra money, so send it home to mom
or dad or, or the wife or whatever.
(11:09):
You know, so it was kind of a bribe.
Cliff DuVernois (11:12):
Then, so we're bribing people to be on the boat.
But now if we're talkingabout a crew, right?
So there's a captain, like howmany chiefs were on the boat?
How many enlisted guys were the
Tom Johnson (11:22):
boat?
It's a captain and sevenofficers, and then four chiefs.
So there was split between the officers.
It was, uh, eight officers and 72enlisted men topped out on this boat.
The, the original design wasfor about 65, but it got to 80.
And there was a bunk for everybody,
Cliff DuVernois (11:38):
Okay.
So let's take a step back herejust to put this in context.
How long is this boat?
Tom Johnson (11:43):
312 feet long, 28 feet wide.
But you're in a tube that's 16 feetin diameter inside that structure.
So that's it.
So it's a little less than 312feet and, and probably four or more
feet smaller than the, the width of
Cliff DuVernois (12:01):
the boat.
You obviously cannot be claustrophobic.
That would help.
And you definitely are not any kind ofan introvert because no matter where
you go, you're not just seeing oneperson, you're seeing a lot of people.
Tom Johnson (12:14):
Oh yeah, yeah.
You're talking
Cliff DuVernois (12:15):
about 80 people that, that are in a bow,
and every one of them had a
Tom Johnson (12:17):
bump, but there were shifts, it was probably, I mean,
they were probably tired enoughto climb in their bunk, in their
clothes and just go to sleep.
You know, we've heard all sortsof stories in Vietnam, period,
on boats similar to this.
Uh, one of the guys said that we wentout for 32 days, didn't even shower.
We didn't care, yeah.
He managed to somehow squirrel away forhimself five packs of cigarettes a day.
(12:40):
He was, uh, addicted, I guess, man alive.
Okay.
So there were ways arounda lot of different things.
Uh, but other boats, theGerman boats were much smaller.
The German boat in Chicago, the U 5 05 is 60 feet shorter than this boat.
I'm not sure the compliment of that crew.
Uh, and they had shifts also,but in this boat it was nice.
(13:00):
They, now, somebody's gonna tellme I'm wrong, but I've heard it
called the Cadillac of submarines,
Cliff DuVernois (13:06):
Well, somebody used the term term earlier that caught
my attention, but back in the day,this was like the space shuttle.
Tom Johnson (13:12):
I thought of that if you, I know it couldn't move, but
if you could stick this in space,would you be okay inside of it?
Is it like a spaceship?
In other words?
Cliff DuVernois (13:20):
Okay.
Tom Johnson (13:21):
It means they talk about the O, the oceans being a space of kind.
You know, a hostile space for humans.
So yeah, it is one of the mostadvanced machines that we have today.
Cliff DuVernois (13:33):
So if we're, if so we, let's take a step back here.
So we're talking thecompliment of, of 80 people.
That's what they got to, yeah.
80 men on the boat, which is crazy.
Let's talk a little bit about the service,like during the war, like what were some
notable things about the USS Silversides?
You made a commentearlier about being third.
Tom Johnson (13:54):
She's considered third in sinking.
Then they add the, theships up fifth in tonnage.
The two higher boats, the toe tog andthe, uh, oh, I forgot her name already.
There's two boats that were the toe tog.
And anyway, one of 'em sankitself with an air torpedo.
Oh, no.
(14:15):
Yeah, people did survive that.
And the other one actually got scrapped,uh, the year I was born in, uh, Manistee.
So she was back here on the lake.
Okay.
Um, so the silversides is, ispretty much noted for that.
She, um.
Has been blended into a lot of films.
Okay?
Okay.
Uh, don't get upset by this tablein front of you, but it had a,
(14:39):
they had an appendectomy surgeryperformed on this table by the,
uh, pharmacist mate of the chef,
Cliff DuVernois (14:45):
pharmacist mate did an appendectomy
Tom Johnson (14:47):
right on this table.
Sweet Moses.
Cliff DuVernois (14:49):
Yeah.
Tom Johnson (14:50):
this guy had, uh, what turned out to be appendicitis.
They were out on a run, itwas the fourth War Patrol.
His name was George Platter.
And the pharmacist mate, you know,is not allowed to do anything, but
you know the basic stuff, correct?
Yes.
But a pharmacist.
They basically went to thecaptain and they said, Hey.
If this guy's in trouble, you know,we're not near any capital ships that
(15:13):
might have an operating room or land,
Cliff DuVernois (15:14):
right?
Tom Johnson (15:15):
So the captain basically said to the pharmacist,
Hey, well, can you help this guy?
And he says, well, I've seen it.
The appendectomy performedbefore and I've got a book.
And so yeah, there's, uh, rumors oftaking a butter knife and sharpening
it in the, in the one of the shop'swheel and, uh, you know, using spoons
(15:35):
for four sips and all sorts of stuff.
Oh, man.
And it, they, they had a, a,I think they had something to
shoot him up with to knock himout and they had to use some, uh.
Gas afterwards and stuff like that,that might have affected them.
It was about a four hour surgery.
They submerged the boat underwater'cause it's, you know, smooth underwater.
And did the surgery right.
It was successful.
(15:56):
Uh, apparently they were attackeda little while later and the
gentleman who was in his bunkrecuperating fell out of his bunk.
Ooh.
They got it back and he, you know, gotoutta the service Later on, he four,
three or four more war patrols and thenhe ended up dying of old age, so, right.
Good, good for him.
But it was against the rules.
So when they got back to port and theadmiral found out he was gonna court
(16:19):
martial, the, the, uh, pharmacistmate and the captain obviously
probably said, I ordered him todo it, whatcha gonna do about it?
And it happened two more timeswith two other submarines.
Cliff DuVernois (16:28):
We gotta remember here, when you're talking about a
submarine like this, 300 foot hasgot a range of 11,000 miles, right?
This boat could have been anywhere inthe Pacific Ocean Needle in a haystack.
So you're, yeah, and, and we also takeinto account the fact that, you know, most
of our fleet was sunk at Pearl Harbor.
So if you're out there, you areout there and you are alone.
(16:53):
There's nobody gonna comecharging to your rescue.
Tom Johnson (16:55):
At that point, they had Pearl Harbor, Brisbane, maybe, and other
ports and along Australia and New Zealand.
Right.
You know, as the war progressed,they had more and more places to go.
But yeah, the range helped becausethey were able to go run out of
torpedoes, go back and get more, runout of food, go back and get more.
Cliff DuVernois (17:12):
And so how long then was the ship in service?
Tom Johnson (17:16):
So she went out in April of 42 to just about the end of 45 into 46.
Cliff DuVernois (17:24):
So about four years of service.
Yeah.
God only knows how many missions.
How many torpedoes?
Tom Johnson (17:29):
Well, she had 14 missions.
Oh really?
Okay.
It doesn't sound like a lot, but whena lot of it is traveling, it's a lot.
Cliff DuVernois (17:36):
That's right.
Tom Johnson (17:37):
So she met the enemy 12 times, uh, up on the, The conning tower,
you can see that there's 12 battle stars.
They use bronze is five and silver's one.
So there's two bronze and two silvers,
Cliff DuVernois (17:48):
right?
Tom Johnson (17:49):
She got a presidential unit citation for aggressive action.
So yeah, she, she was a decoratedboat and she sank well, anywhere
up to maybe 30 vessels, right?
Damaged 14.
Cliff DuVernois (18:01):
Which you can see the flags on the outside of the ship, right?
For the different, the differenttypes of different war ships
and different freighters.
Tom Johnson (18:07):
Yeah.
Well, you'll, on the conning tower, uh,you'll see the Japanese flag, the homeland
flag that represents any merchant vessels.
Right.
Sun or damage.
And then the, you know, therising sun is a warship flag that
represents any type of warship.
Cliff DuVernois (18:21):
For our audience, we're gonna take a quick break and
thank our sponsors when they come back.
Tom Johnson of the USS Silversides isgonna continue to dazzle us with his
brilliance, but we're gonna talk alot more about how the USS Silversides
actually wound up in Michigan and what youcan expect when you come here and visit.
We'll see you after the break.
Are you enjoying this episode?
Well, I can tell youthere's a lot more to come.
(18:43):
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Hello everyone.
Welcome back to Total Michigan, wherewe interview ordinary Michigander
(19:05):
doing extraordinary things.
I'm your host, Cliff DuVernois today.
Sitting with me is Tom Johnson, oneof the extraordinary guides of the
USS Silversides, located in MuskegonSubmarine Museum in Michigan.
If that doesn't make you want togo, I don't know what will Tom.
Before the break, we talked a little bit.
(19:26):
About the history, the 14 sortiesthat this boat had, the number
of ships that it sunk during,its, its time and its service.
What I'd like to do is I'd like tostart connecting the dots between,
uh, you were talking before abouthow it was in service until maybe 46.
How did the Silversideswind up in Muskegon?
Tom Johnson (19:48):
Okay.
Well, after the war, they was decidedto use some boats as training.
Boats, in other words.
Okay.
Okay, so, um.
Some of the boats were taken awayand turned into what was called
the Guppy class when Sonar wasgetting a little bit better.
Uh, so they modified,they modified those boats.
This boat was taken down to thebottom of the Mississippi River.
(20:12):
We believe her screws, as the Navy wouldcall them, were propellers, were removed.
She was put on a barge and broughtup there to the Illinois and
into Chicago to then, you know,the naval base in North Chicago.
So she could be used as a training vessel.
Now, the reason she couldn't maneuver,and there's questions of whether that's
true or not, uh, you hear a lot ofrumors was there is a treaty between
(20:35):
Canada and the United States for noactive warships on the Great Lakes.
Oh, interesting.
Okay.
But all of our other systems stillwork and they could be trained on 'em.
And those boats, these boatsran up until the Vietnam period.
A lot of Really?
Yeah.
They're, you know, it, it's a tough boat.
It was built for a war whereyou're not really sneaking
(20:56):
around and spying on people.
You're actually out there being attacked.
So they had to survive death chargesand, and all sorts of things.
So you wanted these things to besolid and, and then they had moved
from the past where they were boltingthings together to welding things
together and stuff, stuff like that.
Because the technology
Cliff DuVernois (21:13):
improved.
Yeah.
The manufacturing processes improved.
Probably a lot of lessons learned.
From World War
Tom Johnson (21:18):
ii.
Yep.
but then, um, somewhere in1969, she was decommissioned.
She was sort of, I think the, uh, the citybought her for a dollar, honorary dollar.
Again, there's some rumors about all that.
Yeah.
So she spent some time on the pier,the navy pier, both sides, other sides.
(21:38):
Moved over to the industrial museum,moved back, moved around a lot.
Rumors of homeless peoplesomehow getting on border.
Just not taken care of and then takencare of, they started a program with
a scout staying on board in Chicago.
Uh, and then eventually in the mideighties the city was kind of like,
can you get this thing out of here?
(22:00):
And there is kind of a, a thing,does the Navy still own her?
Now when you say the city, areyou talking about still Chicago.
Chicago.
Okay.
Alright.
Yeah, Chicago.
In 1987, I think that was about theend of the road for her down there.
People up here offeredto have her come up here.
She was towed up to Muskegon.
Um, she spent most of her timehere in her space now, but at
(22:23):
one time she was downtown wherethere's another vessel down there.
And, uh.
Yeah, I mean that's kind ofwhere it started, about 1987.
So she's been here ever since.
And so many people see signsout on the roads, places saying
submarine, and they're like, what?
Why?
And they follow the signs andthey walk in the building and
they go, there's a submarine here.
Cliff DuVernois (22:45):
Yes.
I actually driving intoMuskegon today because I'm now
aware of the submarine museum.
All I saw were signs forthe submarine museum.
So it's kind of cool that the Cityof Muskegon has really embraced the
US has silverside and is using thatto get people to come here and visit.
Tom Johnson (23:03):
Yeah.
We're right off of, uh, pier MarquetteBeach, which is a beautiful beach.
It is been voted number one beachin Michigan some several times.
It is a surprise.
People come around that corner not knowingit, and they go, there's a submarine.
Cliff DuVernois (23:15):
Yeah.
So when we talk about like the,the ship coming here, at some point
in time, I'm gonna assume thatan organization came together.
That said, okay, we're gonnatake over the care of the boat,
the ownership of the boat.
We're gonna make it safe sopeople can come and visit.
Talk to us about the history of that.
Tom Johnson (23:33):
There was a family involved, the Marins and um.
Other people got involved withthis, the boat being here.
So it seems to be, it was sortof a private adventure at first.
Uh, but now we have a board.
Who's in charge of everythinglike that and a director.
And so it, it is more of a,well, 5 0 1 C3 and Dean Sure.
(23:55):
Nonprofit.
Yep.
Yeah.
So the, the profit that we get goes intothe boat, to keep her, you know, floating.
She has a good hull.
She's not going anywhere.
Well, you talk about moving her around, soshe's still gotta be structurally sound.
Well, uh, she floats.
She goes up and down with the,there's no tide here, but the lake
levels vary depending on the winters.
Cliff DuVernois (24:16):
Yep.
Tom Johnson (24:17):
She was towed out into the lake, I think it was 2008 before
I got here for a movie called Below.
It's a paranormal World War II movie.
They wanted to be ableto fly around the boat.
Surrounded by water without having to doany special effects and stuff like that.
Although they builtinteriors on a sound stage.
She might've been in a, aBritish documentary at one time.
(24:38):
There was another movie called MickeyMadson, a kid's film that was filmed here.
I think she was a dockside at that point.
So she's been, you know, up slightlyabove the radar every once in a while.
Cliff DuVernois (24:51):
This is awesome.
And as far as.
Establishing this to get the museum going.
People are, are starting to come here.
What I would like to do is, I canimagine that a lot of people that
visit actually have family, familymembers who served either during World
(25:12):
War II or perhaps even served on thesilver sites or one in the fleet.
Talk to us a little bit about maybe someof the stories that really stick out
to you that people have maybe shared.
Tom Johnson (25:21):
Yeah, they're, that generation is somewhat passing.
I think about two or three weeks agowe had a World War II veteran in,
and he's free, he gets in for free.
But family members come all the time,you know, uh, I had a guy not too
long ago, we have the, uh, controlpanel for the second silversides.
It was a nuclear boat inside the museum.
(25:42):
And he said, I used to sit here every day.
Oh,
Cliff DuVernois (25:45):
that's so cool.
But
Tom Johnson (25:46):
then going back farther, um.
Just about three, I think years agowas the passing of what we thought
were the last of the World WarII veterans that served on board.
Her right gentleman named George Hawkinswho lived in Florida and one of our
people that worked here, her folks weredown there and she go down there and talk
to him and he apparently has a diary.
(26:06):
His daughter now has thediary since he's passed.
Mm-hmm.
We're hoping to get that.
There's one story that always sticksin my mind, and I wasn't the tour guide
at the time, but one of the tour guidestold me that they were going through
the boat and there was a gentleman whoserved on a similar boat, not this one.
When they were in the cruisearea, sat down on, he said,
this would've been my bunk.
And he was sitting there and then theguide was talking, and he said after
(26:28):
a point, he looked over and there weretears rolling down this gentleman's face.
And he said, she said,well, are you all right?
And he said, I sat here through,oh, maybe 75 depth charges.
And it's like a, a shotgungoing off next to your head.
And they survived obviously'cause he is there.
(26:48):
But it, it just triggered thatmemory for him just being in the
boat, maybe smelling the boat.
Cliff DuVernois (26:53):
Yes.
Yeah.
See people
Tom Johnson (26:53):
talk about the smell of this boat.
So we still get people and ofcourse, and the training part
of it in Chicago, there's peoplestill alive who train on her.
Cliff DuVernois (27:02):
You talk about the smell?
'cause we, you know, we thinkabout the fact that the, that the
scent of, or the sense of smellis closely tied to memories.
And you were sharing before that,'cause we talk about depth charges.
We didn't mention this at thebeginning, but at the time the maximum
depth for this boat was 300 feet.
Tom Johnson (27:23):
300 ish feet about her length.
Cliff DuVernois (27:24):
Yes.
Tom Johnson (27:25):
But then we heard a story from a gentleman who said
a boat went almost to 500 feet.
So, which please don't arrest us.
That was just a rumor that we heard.
Can't I can't tell youabout the modern boats.
Right.
I have to kill you withmy pinky or something.
Cliff DuVernois (27:40):
Yeah.
'cause we're, if we're talkingabout a depth of 300 feet depth
charges, were like, especiallyduring that time, were just.
That was just part of life, beingon a boat, you know, this, this,
the volunteer basis, the hazard paythat you had to, you had to sit and
listen to those things and pray.
They weren't within, uh, I think,uh, I think I read earlier if
they were like within 50 feet,they could damage the boat.
(28:00):
25 yards was, what is a kill shot?
25 yards is a kill shot.
Okay.
Tom Johnson (28:04):
So when you see the movies in the little explosive
are going next to the model?
No, it says boat's done.
Yeah.
Now there was, stories of theJapanese believing that boats
could only go to 150 feet.
Ah, okay.
And then there was a, a tour ofsome gentleman from Washington who
came out, oh no, don't worry sir.
(28:24):
These boats can go to 300 feet.
So they apparently went back toWashington and told everybody.
So then the Japanese started droppingtheir death charges farther down.
Yes.
Cliff DuVernois (28:34):
Yes.
Tom Johnson (28:34):
And what was the famous phrase?
Loose
Cliff DuVernois (28:36):
slips,
Tom Johnson (28:37):
sank
Cliff DuVernois (28:37):
ships.
There you go.
we're talking now about like thestructural integrity about it, but
also too, there's a lot of systems onthis boat that are still functional.
You were talking beforeabout how like the engines.
Tom Johnson (28:50):
Two engines still turn over.
Uh, their Fairbanks, Mornine cylinder, 18 pistons.
They were opposing pistonsnicknamed rock crushers.
Uh, we turn 'em over every chance we get.
We just got a fresh set ofoil and they think they, we
haven't had oil since the 1950s.
Holy smokes.
And the boat was still in Chicago.
(29:11):
And then our air systems, wecan keep her, you know, upright
and floating, uh, with um.
Modern equipment too, right?
So, uh, the tanks are stillsealed in, in most cases.
So yeah, she's, but she, peoplealways go, Ooh, let's take
her out, let's go somewhere.
And it was not, unlessshe's being towed, right?
Yeah.
And she's got one good dive left in her.
Cliff DuVernois (29:33):
So I'm not gonna ask you for a dive.
I would love to, uh, but you alsomade the comment before about how the
screws have been taken off the ship.
Yeah.
'cause it can't be active.
So I assume that there's no screws now?
Tom Johnson (29:43):
No, there's a set at the door up, up, up front.
When you come in the museumwith the, the, are the type.
But they're from a different boat,
Cliff DuVernois (29:50):
right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then, so let me askyou this question, Tom.
If, if somebody's coming here,they'd, you know, love to see the
submarine go through the museum.
What are, so tell us, what canthey expect when they come?
Tom Johnson (30:02):
All right.
Well, if you want to, you can buytickets online or through our website
and we have a Facebook page or justwalk right in the front door and buy the
tickets, you know, at the desk there.
We usually, I don't know, I say kindof an hour or an hour and a half, if
you will, to to see everything, right?
20 minutes if you bring kids.
Uh, but we have a gift shop in there.
(30:24):
And then we have films.
One of the films is a tour of thesubmarine, so if you want information
before you walk through the boat, eventhough there's things written throughout
the boat, you get a lot from that film.
Or if there's somebody inyour party that literally.
Doesn't feel comfortable or can't mobile,mobilize, get through the boat, right?
You can sit and watch the filmwhile other people go through.
Cliff DuVernois (30:45):
Mm-hmm.
Tom Johnson (30:46):
And um, yeah, there's a lot to see, lot to experience.
And actually walking through a WorldWar II boat is the best because if you
watch any of the old movies, those areHollywood sets for the interiors today.
There's some shows and thingsout where the digital cameras are
obviously easy to get through withthese things, but they couldn't get
the physical cameras in the boats.
(31:06):
So they built the sets and itwas easier to send the actors
there to a, a sound stage,
Cliff DuVernois (31:11):
correct.
Yeah.
Tom Johnson (31:11):
Where they could use the boat on the surface, even submerge
it and get that kind of film.
It was easier to, you know, filmon a sound stage for the interior.
Sure.
And then,
Cliff DuVernois (31:21):
so we were talking before about getting tickets.
If people wanna find you, followyou, you know, online, how can
they, how can they get the tickets?
Where, where can they go on socialmedia to learn more about you?
Tom Johnson (31:32):
Facebook we're, we have a good Facebook, we have, when I first got
here about eight years ago, and they toldme we have 29,000 subscribers on Facebook.
I was like, holy moly, I didn'texpect anywhere near that.
Okay.
And we have a regular website,you know, uh, we can give you the
information, you could post it.
It's down here.
Is that what they do?
(31:52):
Yeah, I
Cliff DuVernois (31:52):
think they say it's down here.
Tom Johnson (31:55):
Uss silverside.com
or something?
Yeah.
Okay.
Tom, I'll get fired now for that.
Cliff DuVernois (32:00):
Oops, Tom, it has been awesome having you on the show today.
Thank you so much for answeringall my questions and, uh, sharing
with us a little, a little bitabout this, uh, amazing boat.
Well, thank you for finding us.
And, uh, for audience, you canalways go to total michigan.com
and click on Tom's interviewand get all the links that he's
gonna provide us, uh, down below.
(32:20):
Tune in again next week when wetalk to another Michigander, doing
some pretty extraordinary things.
We'll see you then.
There's one story that always sticks in my mind, one of the tour guides
told me that they were going throughthe boat and there was a gentleman who
served on a similar boat, not this one.
When they were in the cruisearea, sat down on, he said,
this would've been my bunk.
And he was sitting there and then theguide was talking, and there were tears
rolling down this gentleman's face.
And he said, I sat here through,oh, maybe 75 depth charges.
(00:24):
And it's like a, a shotgungoing off next to your head.
Cliff DuVernois (00:29):
Hello everyone and welcome back to Total Michigan where
we interviewer near Michigan's doingsome pretty extraordinary things.
I'm your host Cliff DuVernois.
One of the things that I alwayslove to do is I love to see, Old,
military style, vehicles, boats,whatever, that are actually museums.
And it gives us a direct linkto our history as a nation.
(00:51):
But also too is how so many membersthroughout the Midwest and especially
through Michigan, we've had so manyof our family members serve through
throughout the various wars, throughWorld War I, world War ii, Vietnam,
Korea, even up into Iraq and Afghanistan.
And during my research for theshow, I actually came across this
incredible find where it's actuallya submarine museum that you can
(01:15):
actually go onto, you can visit, youcan walk around, you can touch things.
It's great.
And so I'm over in Muskegon today,and sitting with me is Tom Johnson.
He's one of the guides here at the USSSilversides Museum located in Muskegon.
Tom, how are you?
I'm good.
How are you doing today?
(01:36):
I am doing awesome.
Thank you for asking.
And also thank you forletting us come on your boat.
No problem.
I'm happy to have you.
So with that being said, Tom, why don'tyou tell us what is the USS Silversides?
Tom Johnson (01:50):
It's a museum in Muskegon, as you said.
We're out here on the channel between,uh, Muskegon Lake and Lake Michigan.
It started out actually as a generalkind of ship museum, so we do have a
back stock of a lot of different typesof things in there, but it, it became
more about the Silversides more and more.
Uh, she's a World War II submarine,famous for being the number
(02:12):
three boat out in the Pacific.
Uh, that's far as, sinkings go.
and the museum itself is somewhatdedicated towards World War ii.
What happened?
And then there's, um, a lot aboutships, of course, but there's a lot
about, armies and general, you know,things about, POWs, nurses, all sorts
of different things inside the museum.
Cliff DuVernois (02:33):
Before we jump into more about the history of the museum and what
people can expect when they come here.
Let's talk a little bit about you.
Where are you from?
Where did you grow up?
Tom Johnson (02:44):
I'm actually from New Jersey.
A Jersey boy.
Yes.
Yeah, yeah.
Um, New Jersey.
I've lived a kind of a move around life.
I did work at a 1850s reproductionvillage in New Jersey for a while.
Sure.
So I got into the history and stufflike that, and then I did move to
California for a little bit and I workedon the Queen Mary, the old Ocean liner.
(03:04):
Out Long Beach.
Yeah.
Long Beach, California.
And I was, have been interested inships in general of any types, sailing
ships, steam ships, all of that.
So it wasn't hard for me to learn.
The basic tours plus everything else.
So I could talk straight for an hour aboutthe Queen Mary and the Silversides too.
Cliff DuVernois (03:27):
So if we were in Long Beach, I'd say let's go to
the Queen Mary, but let's stick tothe USS uh, silversides for now.
So let me ask you this question, 'causeyou made a comment about how you've always
been interested in like old time ships.
Where do you think thisinterest came from?
Tom Johnson (03:42):
Um, when I was young, I lived on a lake near here, spring
Lake, and I had a motorboat, a littletiny fishing motorboat and a little
sailboat, and it might've been then,I don't know, I got into World War II
history like a lot of kids did back then.
Yep.
That was early teen years andstuff like that was charged.
Cliff DuVernois (04:00):
Yeah, I was there too.
Yeah.
Tom Johnson (04:01):
Ships in general?
I don't know.
I don't know.
It was a sailor in my last life.
Who knows?
Cliff DuVernois (04:08):
Now, what brought you to Michigan?
Tom Johnson (04:11):
Um, I had been here when I was a teenager, as I said, and then
moved back east and then moved out west.
Um, I met at.
A lady online.
Oh, there's a
Cliff DuVernois (04:19):
story there.
Yeah.
Tom Johnson (04:20):
Yep.
36 years later after, uh, from the highschool here in Michigan and uh, we got
together in California and then we movedFlorida and then she said, you know what?
Let's go to Michigan.
It's a beautiful state.
Prices for houses are reasonable.
So we were able to come up hereand get a house and she saw
the ad for the silversides.
(04:41):
It was looking for somebody for Fridayand Saturday nights to do overnights.
Uh, we have scouts thatsleep on board the ship.
They have for years.
So I said, well, I reallyneed a full-time job.
And so she said, when we were justgetting ready to move, why don't you
call ahead and talk to the director?
And I did.
And he said, uh, well, I'mlooking for somebody to be in
the store and I need somebody tohelp with these other programs.
(05:02):
And I said, I can do all of that.
I'm kind of a jack of all trades, right?
So he gave me a full-time job.
So I walked right in.
I didn't have to go to Home Depot.
Cliff DuVernois (05:11):
Nice.
And when you talked about before, 'causethis is a term I've never heard of before.
We have the Silversides andit's floating here in the water.
You talked about scouts thatactually sleep on the ship.
Tom Johnson (05:22):
We have a active program to get well, we'd like more than the
scouts, but, uh, generally the scouts,uh, boy Scouts, girl Scouts, cub Scouts.
They sleep onboard thesubmarine as do, yep.
So they, they, uh, we have a minimum todo that and they sign up, they pick a
date and they come out here and we havemaybe a program or two inside for them,
(05:43):
or maybe let them just explore the museum,whatever they feel like doing, you know,
have a cookout or something like that.
And they actually go in and sleep on theactual bunks in the silversides overnight.
Cliff DuVernois (05:55):
Now, as far as you know, a little bit more about your backstory,
'cause I do wanna spend some time talkingabout the silversides and, and the
history and the people, uh, that servedon this boat for the historical comp.
Is it just something thatdid that you already know?
Is it something thatyou learned by osmosis?
Where did that study come from?
Tom Johnson (06:12):
For the silverside?
Yes.
Bizarrely enough.
I was never really into submarines.
It was battleships.
Oh, okay.
I love battleships, but.
When, uh, Pearl Harbor happened, the, uh,fleet, you know, the ships were decimated.
The aircraft carriersluckily weren't there.
The war was changing, you know?
Yep.
And no longer battleships,you know, blazing away at each
(06:34):
other, airplanes and submarines.
So, right away, after PearlHarbor, the, uh, Admiral of the
Day said to the submarine fleet,and this is not QT anymore, but
go out there and sink everything.
With a Japanese flag on it.
So it was unrestricted warfare.
So normally Congress gets involvedwith stuff, anything like that.
(06:54):
Sure.
But he was just like, thisis all we really have.
So between the airplanes and thesubmarines that really won the war.
For the Americans in the Pacific.
Definitely.
Cliff DuVernois (07:07):
So now when we're talking about, we're sliding right into the
history of the, of the Silversides here.
'cause we, you know, everybody isfamiliar with the fact that, you
know, December 7th, 1941 mm-hmm.
Right.
Is when, you know PearlHarbor was attacked.
Yeah.
And the US declared war onJapan, which then brought, you
know, us to war with Germany.
This boat was pro produced.
(07:27):
Pushed out how many days afterJuly se, or sorry, December 7th.
Tom Johnson (07:32):
Well, they started building here in November of 40, uh,
may Island Naval Shipyard in California.
They were building 'em also inManitoc across the lake here in,
uh, Groton, Connecticut and Newport.
So they were building in severalstations around throughout.
The design came from about two decadesworth of research and work into developing
(07:53):
what turned into a fleet submarine.
So these submarines were equippedto go out with the fleet.
Now, since that happened with Pearl Harborand there was kind of no fleet, it didn't
matter because these had a range of,you know, somewhere around 11,000 miles.
Cliff DuVernois (08:10):
Amazing.
Yeah.
Now a lot of the design, 'cause you talkedabout it was like two decades of design.
It's important to note thatsubmarines actually started making
their debe debut, if my history'scorrect, like during the Civil War.
Oh
Tom Johnson (08:22):
yeah,
Cliff DuVernois (08:22):
yeah.
The Hunley.
Yeah.
But they weren't really used, or I guessthe technology really got pushed forward
thanks to World War I, but all of asudden now when they see the value during
World War I, that's when like World Warii, you started seeing like fleets of
these being deployed and the technology.
Tom Johnson (08:40):
Well, if you look at the pos, uh, the Atlantic War,
that's all the Germans really had.
Every time they sent something out,the Bismarck or whatever, it got sunk.
So the surface vessels weren't workingfor them, so they put out almost a
thousand submarines in the Atlantic.
Sweet.
Most.
So they were Yeah, trying, theywere trying to stem the ti tide
of supplies coming from Americabefore we even joined the war.
(09:04):
Yeah.
'cause we weren't
Cliff DuVernois (09:05):
officially part of the war, but we, we were definitely
supporting the war effort goingon, especially over in Europe.
Tom Johnson (09:10):
Right.
So submarines
Cliff DuVernois (09:12):
became their main weapon out in the Atlantic.
So talk to us now getting a little bitmore specific about the USS silver side.
So.
Uh, it came out notlong after December 7th.
Tom Johnson (09:23):
So, uh, the December 15th she was, uh, commissioned.
Yeah.
Cliff DuVernois (09:27):
Yeah.
So talk to us a little bit about,so when the first, when the boat
first gets out there, talk to us.
First off I'd like to know.
Let's talk about the crew.
Let's talk about like the kindof men that served on here.
'cause you made an interestingcomment before about how serving
on a sub is purely voluntary.
Tom Johnson (09:44):
Oh yeah.
It always has been on the, well,at least on the American side.
So if you can't get through thosehatches fast enough, or you have trouble
getting up and down the ladders, youmight not want to be on a submarine.
You don't have to be on a submarine.
So average male height in theforties was about five eight.
You know, you have yoursix footers and stuff.
Gentlemen mentioned that before.
People.
(10:04):
We hear a lot of storiesgoing in and out of the boat.
I bet, I bet.
You know, relatives of friends andpeople who had been on the boat before
and stuff like that, and they, you know,confirmed this guy was, he said he was
like 6, 6 1 or something like that.
So it's up to you really.
Um, in the beginning, uh, whenthe ship first set out, uh, most
(10:25):
of 'em were in Pearl Harbor.
There was a, you know, kind ofsubmarine base there that by the
way, the Japanese didn't bomb.
They didn't touch the submarines.
Oh, interesting.
Okay.
All right.
So, and they were offering hazard pay.
These, you still get a hazardpay, so on top of your regular
pay, you get extra money.
You're coming out of the.
Thirties, you're comingout of a depression.
(10:47):
You we're gonna have awar, we're going to war.
Guys who were volunteering,maybe they heard that you get
that extra money on a submarine.
Let's try a submarine.
Supposedly, quote unquote, you getthe best food in, in the service,
but you'll get, submarines willlaugh when you mention that.
But they had, yeah, we did get theextra money, so send it home to mom
or dad or, or the wife or whatever.
(11:09):
You know, so it was kind of a bribe.
Cliff DuVernois (11:12):
Then, so we're bribing people to be on the boat.
But now if we're talkingabout a crew, right?
So there's a captain, like howmany chiefs were on the boat?
How many enlisted guys were the
Tom Johnson (11:22):
boat?
It's a captain and sevenofficers, and then four chiefs.
So there was split between the officers.
It was, uh, eight officers and 72enlisted men topped out on this boat.
The, the original design wasfor about 65, but it got to 80.
And there was a bunk for everybody,
Cliff DuVernois (11:38):
Okay.
So let's take a step back herejust to put this in context.
How long is this boat?
Tom Johnson (11:43):
312 feet long, 28 feet wide.
But you're in a tube that's 16 feetin diameter inside that structure.
So that's it.
So it's a little less than 312feet and, and probably four or more
feet smaller than the, the width of
Cliff DuVernois (12:01):
the boat.
You obviously cannot be claustrophobic.
That would help.
And you definitely are not any kind ofan introvert because no matter where
you go, you're not just seeing oneperson, you're seeing a lot of people.
Tom Johnson (12:14):
Oh yeah, yeah.
You're talking
Cliff DuVernois (12:15):
about 80 people that, that are in a bow,
and every one of them had a
Tom Johnson (12:17):
bump, but there were shifts, it was probably, I mean,
they were probably tired enoughto climb in their bunk, in their
clothes and just go to sleep.
You know, we've heard all sortsof stories in Vietnam, period,
on boats similar to this.
Uh, one of the guys said that we wentout for 32 days, didn't even shower.
We didn't care, yeah.
He managed to somehow squirrel away forhimself five packs of cigarettes a day.
(12:40):
He was, uh, addicted, I guess, man alive.
Okay.
So there were ways arounda lot of different things.
Uh, but other boats, theGerman boats were much smaller.
The German boat in Chicago, the U 5 05 is 60 feet shorter than this boat.
I'm not sure the compliment of that crew.
Uh, and they had shifts also,but in this boat it was nice.
(13:00):
They, now, somebody's gonna tellme I'm wrong, but I've heard it
called the Cadillac of submarines,
Cliff DuVernois (13:06):
Well, somebody used the term term earlier that caught
my attention, but back in the day,this was like the space shuttle.
Tom Johnson (13:12):
I thought of that if you, I know it couldn't move, but
if you could stick this in space,would you be okay inside of it?
Is it like a spaceship?
In other words?
Cliff DuVernois (13:20):
Okay.
Tom Johnson (13:21):
It means they talk about the O, the oceans being a space of kind.
You know, a hostile space for humans.
So yeah, it is one of the mostadvanced machines that we have today.
Cliff DuVernois (13:33):
So if we're, if so we, let's take a step back here.
So we're talking thecompliment of, of 80 people.
That's what they got to, yeah.
80 men on the boat, which is crazy.
Let's talk a little bit about the service,like during the war, like what were some
notable things about the USS Silversides?
You made a commentearlier about being third.
Tom Johnson (13:54):
She's considered third in sinking.
Then they add the, theships up fifth in tonnage.
The two higher boats, the toe tog andthe, uh, oh, I forgot her name already.
There's two boats that were the toe tog.
And anyway, one of 'em sankitself with an air torpedo.
Oh, no.
(14:15):
Yeah, people did survive that.
And the other one actually got scrapped,uh, the year I was born in, uh, Manistee.
So she was back here on the lake.
Okay.
Um, so the silversides is, ispretty much noted for that.
She, um.
Has been blended into a lot of films.
Okay?
Okay.
Uh, don't get upset by this tablein front of you, but it had a,
(14:39):
they had an appendectomy surgeryperformed on this table by the,
uh, pharmacist mate of the chef,
Cliff DuVernois (14:45):
pharmacist mate did an appendectomy
Tom Johnson (14:47):
right on this table.
Sweet Moses.
Cliff DuVernois (14:49):
Yeah.
Tom Johnson (14:50):
this guy had, uh, what turned out to be appendicitis.
They were out on a run, itwas the fourth War Patrol.
His name was George Platter.
And the pharmacist mate, you know,is not allowed to do anything, but
you know the basic stuff, correct?
Yes.
But a pharmacist.
They basically went to thecaptain and they said, Hey.
If this guy's in trouble, you know,we're not near any capital ships that
(15:13):
might have an operating room or land,
Cliff DuVernois (15:14):
right?
Tom Johnson (15:15):
So the captain basically said to the pharmacist,
Hey, well, can you help this guy?
And he says, well, I've seen it.
The appendectomy performedbefore and I've got a book.
And so yeah, there's, uh, rumors oftaking a butter knife and sharpening
it in the, in the one of the shop'swheel and, uh, you know, using spoons
(15:35):
for four sips and all sorts of stuff.
Oh, man.
And it, they, they had a, a,I think they had something to
shoot him up with to knock himout and they had to use some, uh.
Gas afterwards and stuff like that,that might have affected them.
It was about a four hour surgery.
They submerged the boat underwater'cause it's, you know, smooth underwater.
And did the surgery right.
It was successful.
(15:56):
Uh, apparently they were attackeda little while later and the
gentleman who was in his bunkrecuperating fell out of his bunk.
Ooh.
They got it back and he, you know, gotoutta the service Later on, he four,
three or four more war patrols and thenhe ended up dying of old age, so, right.
Good, good for him.
But it was against the rules.
So when they got back to port and theadmiral found out he was gonna court
(16:19):
martial, the, the, uh, pharmacistmate and the captain obviously
probably said, I ordered him todo it, whatcha gonna do about it?
And it happened two more timeswith two other submarines.
Cliff DuVernois (16:28):
We gotta remember here, when you're talking about a
submarine like this, 300 foot hasgot a range of 11,000 miles, right?
This boat could have been anywhere inthe Pacific Ocean Needle in a haystack.
So you're, yeah, and, and we also takeinto account the fact that, you know, most
of our fleet was sunk at Pearl Harbor.
So if you're out there, you areout there and you are alone.
(16:53):
There's nobody gonna comecharging to your rescue.
Tom Johnson (16:55):
At that point, they had Pearl Harbor, Brisbane, maybe, and other
ports and along Australia and New Zealand.
Right.
You know, as the war progressed,they had more and more places to go.
But yeah, the range helped becausethey were able to go run out of
torpedoes, go back and get more, runout of food, go back and get more.
Cliff DuVernois (17:12):
And so how long then was the ship in service?
Tom Johnson (17:16):
So she went out in April of 42 to just about the end of 45 into 46.
Cliff DuVernois (17:24):
So about four years of service.
Yeah.
God only knows how many missions.
How many torpedoes?
Tom Johnson (17:29):
Well, she had 14 missions.
Oh really?
Okay.
It doesn't sound like a lot, but whena lot of it is traveling, it's a lot.
Cliff DuVernois (17:36):
That's right.
Tom Johnson (17:37):
So she met the enemy 12 times, uh, up on the, The conning tower,
you can see that there's 12 battle stars.
They use bronze is five and silver's one.
So there's two bronze and two silvers,
Cliff DuVernois (17:48):
right?
Tom Johnson (17:49):
She got a presidential unit citation for aggressive action.
So yeah, she, she was a decoratedboat and she sank well, anywhere
up to maybe 30 vessels, right?
Damaged 14.
Cliff DuVernois (18:01):
Which you can see the flags on the outside of the ship, right?
For the different, the differenttypes of different war ships
and different freighters.
Tom Johnson (18:07):
Yeah.
Well, you'll, on the conning tower, uh,you'll see the Japanese flag, the homeland
flag that represents any merchant vessels.
Right.
Sun or damage.
And then the, you know, therising sun is a warship flag that
represents any type of warship.
Cliff DuVernois (18:21):
For our audience, we're gonna take a quick break and
thank our sponsors when they come back.
Tom Johnson of the USS Silversides isgonna continue to dazzle us with his
brilliance, but we're gonna talk alot more about how the USS Silversides
actually wound up in Michigan and what youcan expect when you come here and visit.
We'll see you after the break.
Are you enjoying this episode?
Well, I can tell youthere's a lot more to come.
(18:43):
Jump over to TotalMichigan.
com, enter your email address,and get on our mailing list.
You'll get a list of the topfive episodes for the show.
Along with that, you'll getall kinds of behind the scenes
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Hello everyone.
Welcome back to Total Michigan, wherewe interview ordinary Michigander
(19:05):
doing extraordinary things.
I'm your host, Cliff DuVernois today.
Sitting with me is Tom Johnson, oneof the extraordinary guides of the
USS Silversides, located in MuskegonSubmarine Museum in Michigan.
If that doesn't make you want togo, I don't know what will Tom.
Before the break, we talked a little bit.
(19:26):
About the history, the 14 sortiesthat this boat had, the number
of ships that it sunk during,its, its time and its service.
What I'd like to do is I'd like tostart connecting the dots between,
uh, you were talking before abouthow it was in service until maybe 46.
How did the Silversideswind up in Muskegon?
Tom Johnson (19:48):
Okay.
Well, after the war, they was decidedto use some boats as training.
Boats, in other words.
Okay.
Okay, so, um.
Some of the boats were taken awayand turned into what was called
the Guppy class when Sonar wasgetting a little bit better.
Uh, so they modified,they modified those boats.
This boat was taken down to thebottom of the Mississippi River.
(20:12):
We believe her screws, as the Navy wouldcall them, were propellers, were removed.
She was put on a barge and broughtup there to the Illinois and
into Chicago to then, you know,the naval base in North Chicago.
So she could be used as a training vessel.
Now, the reason she couldn't maneuver,and there's questions of whether that's
true or not, uh, you hear a lot ofrumors was there is a treaty between
(20:35):
Canada and the United States for noactive warships on the Great Lakes.
Oh, interesting.
Okay.
But all of our other systems stillwork and they could be trained on 'em.
And those boats, these boatsran up until the Vietnam period.
A lot of Really?
Yeah.
They're, you know, it, it's a tough boat.
It was built for a war whereyou're not really sneaking
(20:56):
around and spying on people.
You're actually out there being attacked.
So they had to survive death chargesand, and all sorts of things.
So you wanted these things to besolid and, and then they had moved
from the past where they were boltingthings together to welding things
together and stuff, stuff like that.
Because the technology
Cliff DuVernois (21:13):
improved.
Yeah.
The manufacturing processes improved.
Probably a lot of lessons learned.
From World War
Tom Johnson (21:18):
ii.
Yep.
but then, um, somewhere in1969, she was decommissioned.
She was sort of, I think the, uh, the citybought her for a dollar, honorary dollar.
Again, there's some rumors about all that.
Yeah.
So she spent some time on the pier,the navy pier, both sides, other sides.
(21:38):
Moved over to the industrial museum,moved back, moved around a lot.
Rumors of homeless peoplesomehow getting on border.
Just not taken care of and then takencare of, they started a program with
a scout staying on board in Chicago.
Uh, and then eventually in the mideighties the city was kind of like,
can you get this thing out of here?
(22:00):
And there is kind of a, a thing,does the Navy still own her?
Now when you say the city, areyou talking about still Chicago.
Chicago.
Okay.
Alright.
Yeah, Chicago.
In 1987, I think that was about theend of the road for her down there.
People up here offeredto have her come up here.
She was towed up to Muskegon.
Um, she spent most of her timehere in her space now, but at
(22:23):
one time she was downtown wherethere's another vessel down there.
And, uh.
Yeah, I mean that's kind ofwhere it started, about 1987.
So she's been here ever since.
And so many people see signsout on the roads, places saying
submarine, and they're like, what?
Why?
And they follow the signs andthey walk in the building and
they go, there's a submarine here.
Cliff DuVernois (22:45):
Yes.
I actually driving intoMuskegon today because I'm now
aware of the submarine museum.
All I saw were signs forthe submarine museum.
So it's kind of cool that the Cityof Muskegon has really embraced the
US has silverside and is using thatto get people to come here and visit.
Tom Johnson (23:03):
Yeah.
We're right off of, uh, pier MarquetteBeach, which is a beautiful beach.
It is been voted number one beachin Michigan some several times.
It is a surprise.
People come around that corner not knowingit, and they go, there's a submarine.
Cliff DuVernois (23:15):
Yeah.
So when we talk about like the,the ship coming here, at some point
in time, I'm gonna assume thatan organization came together.
That said, okay, we're gonnatake over the care of the boat,
the ownership of the boat.
We're gonna make it safe sopeople can come and visit.
Talk to us about the history of that.
Tom Johnson (23:33):
There was a family involved, the Marins and um.
Other people got involved withthis, the boat being here.
So it seems to be, it was sortof a private adventure at first.
Uh, but now we have a board.
Who's in charge of everythinglike that and a director.
And so it, it is more of a,well, 5 0 1 C3 and Dean Sure.
(23:55):
Nonprofit.
Yep.
Yeah.
So the, the profit that we get goes intothe boat, to keep her, you know, floating.
She has a good hull.
She's not going anywhere.
Well, you talk about moving her around, soshe's still gotta be structurally sound.
Well, uh, she floats.
She goes up and down with the,there's no tide here, but the lake
levels vary depending on the winters.
Cliff DuVernois (24:16):
Yep.
Tom Johnson (24:17):
She was towed out into the lake, I think it was 2008 before
I got here for a movie called Below.
It's a paranormal World War II movie.
They wanted to be ableto fly around the boat.
Surrounded by water without having to doany special effects and stuff like that.
Although they builtinteriors on a sound stage.
She might've been in a, aBritish documentary at one time.
(24:38):
There was another movie called MickeyMadson, a kid's film that was filmed here.
I think she was a dockside at that point.
So she's been, you know, up slightlyabove the radar every once in a while.
Cliff DuVernois (24:51):
This is awesome.
And as far as.
Establishing this to get the museum going.
People are, are starting to come here.
What I would like to do is, I canimagine that a lot of people that
visit actually have family, familymembers who served either during World
(25:12):
War II or perhaps even served on thesilver sites or one in the fleet.
Talk to us a little bit about maybe someof the stories that really stick out
to you that people have maybe shared.
Tom Johnson (25:21):
Yeah, they're, that generation is somewhat passing.
I think about two or three weeks agowe had a World War II veteran in,
and he's free, he gets in for free.
But family members come all the time,you know, uh, I had a guy not too
long ago, we have the, uh, controlpanel for the second silversides.
It was a nuclear boat inside the museum.
(25:42):
And he said, I used to sit here every day.
Oh,
Cliff DuVernois (25:45):
that's so cool.
But
Tom Johnson (25:46):
then going back farther, um.
Just about three, I think years agowas the passing of what we thought
were the last of the World WarII veterans that served on board.
Her right gentleman named George Hawkinswho lived in Florida and one of our
people that worked here, her folks weredown there and she go down there and talk
to him and he apparently has a diary.
(26:06):
His daughter now has thediary since he's passed.
Mm-hmm.
We're hoping to get that.
There's one story that always sticksin my mind, and I wasn't the tour guide
at the time, but one of the tour guidestold me that they were going through
the boat and there was a gentleman whoserved on a similar boat, not this one.
When they were in the cruisearea, sat down on, he said,
this would've been my bunk.
And he was sitting there and then theguide was talking, and he said after
(26:28):
a point, he looked over and there weretears rolling down this gentleman's face.
And he said, she said,well, are you all right?
And he said, I sat here through,oh, maybe 75 depth charges.
And it's like a, a shotgungoing off next to your head.
And they survived obviously'cause he is there.
(26:48):
But it, it just triggered thatmemory for him just being in the
boat, maybe smelling the boat.
Cliff DuVernois (26:53):
Yes.
Yeah.
See people
Tom Johnson (26:53):
talk about the smell of this boat.
So we still get people and ofcourse, and the training part
of it in Chicago, there's peoplestill alive who train on her.
Cliff DuVernois (27:02):
You talk about the smell?
'cause we, you know, we thinkabout the fact that the, that the
scent of, or the sense of smellis closely tied to memories.
And you were sharing before that,'cause we talk about depth charges.
We didn't mention this at thebeginning, but at the time the maximum
depth for this boat was 300 feet.
Tom Johnson (27:23):
300 ish feet about her length.
Cliff DuVernois (27:24):
Yes.
Tom Johnson (27:25):
But then we heard a story from a gentleman who said
a boat went almost to 500 feet.
So, which please don't arrest us.
That was just a rumor that we heard.
Can't I can't tell youabout the modern boats.
Right.
I have to kill you withmy pinky or something.
Cliff DuVernois (27:40):
Yeah.
'cause we're, if we're talkingabout a depth of 300 feet depth
charges, were like, especiallyduring that time, were just.
That was just part of life, beingon a boat, you know, this, this,
the volunteer basis, the hazard paythat you had to, you had to sit and
listen to those things and pray.
They weren't within, uh, I think,uh, I think I read earlier if
they were like within 50 feet,they could damage the boat.
(28:00):
25 yards was, what is a kill shot?
25 yards is a kill shot.
Okay.
Tom Johnson (28:04):
So when you see the movies in the little explosive
are going next to the model?
No, it says boat's done.
Yeah.
Now there was, stories of theJapanese believing that boats
could only go to 150 feet.
Ah, okay.
And then there was a, a tour ofsome gentleman from Washington who
came out, oh no, don't worry sir.
(28:24):
These boats can go to 300 feet.
So they apparently went back toWashington and told everybody.
So then the Japanese started droppingtheir death charges farther down.
Yes.
Cliff DuVernois (28:34):
Yes.
Tom Johnson (28:34):
And what was the famous phrase?
Loose
Cliff DuVernois (28:36):
slips,
Tom Johnson (28:37):
sank
Cliff DuVernois (28:37):
ships.
There you go.
we're talking now about like thestructural integrity about it, but
also too, there's a lot of systems onthis boat that are still functional.
You were talking beforeabout how like the engines.
Tom Johnson (28:50):
Two engines still turn over.
Uh, their Fairbanks, Mornine cylinder, 18 pistons.
They were opposing pistonsnicknamed rock crushers.
Uh, we turn 'em over every chance we get.
We just got a fresh set ofoil and they think they, we
haven't had oil since the 1950s.
Holy smokes.
And the boat was still in Chicago.
(29:11):
And then our air systems, wecan keep her, you know, upright
and floating, uh, with um.
Modern equipment too, right?
So, uh, the tanks are stillsealed in, in most cases.
So yeah, she's, but she, peoplealways go, Ooh, let's take
her out, let's go somewhere.
And it was not, unlessshe's being towed, right?
Yeah.
And she's got one good dive left in her.
Cliff DuVernois (29:33):
So I'm not gonna ask you for a dive.
I would love to, uh, but you alsomade the comment before about how the
screws have been taken off the ship.
Yeah.
'cause it can't be active.
So I assume that there's no screws now?
Tom Johnson (29:43):
No, there's a set at the door up, up, up front.
When you come in the museumwith the, the, are the type.
But they're from a different boat,
Cliff DuVernois (29:50):
right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then, so let me askyou this question, Tom.
If, if somebody's coming here,they'd, you know, love to see the
submarine go through the museum.
What are, so tell us, what canthey expect when they come?
Tom Johnson (30:02):
All right.
Well, if you want to, you can buytickets online or through our website
and we have a Facebook page or justwalk right in the front door and buy the
tickets, you know, at the desk there.
We usually, I don't know, I say kindof an hour or an hour and a half, if
you will, to to see everything, right?
20 minutes if you bring kids.
Uh, but we have a gift shop in there.
(30:24):
And then we have films.
One of the films is a tour of thesubmarine, so if you want information
before you walk through the boat, eventhough there's things written throughout
the boat, you get a lot from that film.
Or if there's somebody inyour party that literally.
Doesn't feel comfortable or can't mobile,mobilize, get through the boat, right?
You can sit and watch the filmwhile other people go through.
Cliff DuVernois (30:45):
Mm-hmm.
Tom Johnson (30:46):
And um, yeah, there's a lot to see, lot to experience.
And actually walking through a WorldWar II boat is the best because if you
watch any of the old movies, those areHollywood sets for the interiors today.
There's some shows and thingsout where the digital cameras are
obviously easy to get through withthese things, but they couldn't get
the physical cameras in the boats.
(31:06):
So they built the sets and itwas easier to send the actors
there to a, a sound stage,
Cliff DuVernois (31:11):
correct.
Yeah.
Tom Johnson (31:11):
Where they could use the boat on the surface, even submerge
it and get that kind of film.
It was easier to, you know, filmon a sound stage for the interior.
Sure.
And then,
Cliff DuVernois (31:21):
so we were talking before about getting tickets.
If people wanna find you, followyou, you know, online, how can
they, how can they get the tickets?
Where, where can they go on socialmedia to learn more about you?
Tom Johnson (31:32):
Facebook we're, we have a good Facebook, we have, when I first got
here about eight years ago, and they toldme we have 29,000 subscribers on Facebook.
I was like, holy moly, I didn'texpect anywhere near that.
Okay.
And we have a regular website,you know, uh, we can give you the
information, you could post it.
It's down here.
Is that what they do?
(31:52):
Yeah, I
Cliff DuVernois (31:52):
think they say it's down here.
Tom Johnson (31:55):
Uss silverside.com
or something?
Yeah.
Okay.
Tom, I'll get fired now for that.
Cliff DuVernois (32:00):
Oops, Tom, it has been awesome having you on the show today.
Thank you so much for answeringall my questions and, uh, sharing
with us a little, a little bitabout this, uh, amazing boat.
Well, thank you for finding us.
And, uh, for audience, you canalways go to total michigan.com
and click on Tom's interviewand get all the links that he's
gonna provide us, uh, down below.
(32:20):
Tune in again next week when wetalk to another Michigander, doing
some pretty extraordinary things.
We'll see you then.
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