April 25, 2025 • 27 mins
Xavier DeGroat doesn’t just want awareness—he wants acceptance. Diagnosed with autism at age four, Xavier has faced bullying, misunderstanding, and judgment. But instead of retreating, he built something powerful. In this episode, we dive into Xavier’s story of persistence, courage, and advocacy. From meeting world leaders to launching the nation’s first Autism History Museum, Xavier’s journey is one of bold steps and even bolder dreams.
In this episode, we cover:
- Overcoming bullying and misunderstanding in childhood
- Building the Xavier DeGroat Autism Foundation
- Starting the first Autism History Museum in the U.S.
- Advocacy, independence, and pushing beyond limits
- Xavier’s vision for autism acceptance in the workplace and beyond
Links:
Website: https://xdafoundation.org
Tour Link: https://xdafoundation.org/museum
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/xavierautismfoundation
Subscribe to our Email Newsletter: https://totalmichigan.com/join/
Find us on Facebook: https://facebook.com/totalmichigan
Watch on YouTube: https://youtube.com/@totalmichigan
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Xavier DeGroat (00:00):
Hey, don't underestimate me.
(00:02):
I don't care.
Just because I'm no Tom Hanks orAlbert Einstein doesn't mean that
I won't be someone in the future.
So you're gonna count me right now ordon't count on me for granted later
when I say something about what youhave judged me and like of my tenacity.
'cause autism is a God-given gift.
It is not for you to determinewhat my autism can and cannot do.
Cliff Duvernois (00:25):
Hello everyone.
Welcome back to Total Michigan, wherewe interview ordinary Michiganders
doing extraordinary things.
I am your host Cliff DuVernois.
So if you may not be awareof this, April is actually
National Autism Awareness Month.
And I always like to showcase people onthe show that are just doing well for that
matter, just doing extraordinary things.
(00:45):
There was one story that caughtmy eye and when I saw what this
young man was doing, I was like,I need to get him onto the show.
'cause he is really working hard to breakdown those barriers that we all have when
it comes to how we look at other peopleor other people that may not exactly think
like us or look like us or whatever it is.
(01:06):
And so this gentleman today isworking hard to change how we
view people who have autism.
And with that being said, I haveXavier DeGroat with me today,
and he is the founder of theXavier DeGroat Autism Foundation,
located in Frankenmuth, Michigan.
Xavier, how are you?
(01:26):
I'm excellent.
How are you today?
I am doing awesome.
Thank you for asking.
Why don't you tell us what is theXavier DeGroat Autism Foundation?
Xavier DeGroat (01:35):
The Xavier DeGroat to Autism Foundation is dedicated to raising
awareness until we have acceptance insociety, which awareness never ends until
people become aware how to better sociallyinteract and treat people with different
abilities such as those on the spectrum.
So by doing so, we go out and.
Do police training, firefightingtraining, how to better behave
(01:58):
towards individuals on a spectrum.
We also help provide education to thecommunity out in the public while we
host programs and seminars that are gonnahold held right here that are going to
help make better world of understandingon how to properly manage what abilities
those with autism have to help contributeto the society we live in today.
Cliff Duvernois (02:21):
And you also have this location here in Frankenmuth
that people can come to and visit?
Xavier DeGroat (02:27):
Yes.
People can come to Frankenmuth andcheck out our autism history museum,
the first of its kind here in thewhole nation, and it will help.
I.
Educate you and make your mind blowup of how many people on the spectrum
have tenacity and abilities to makeimpact across the whole world, such
as Elon Musk today who has autism.
(02:47):
And it's very important that we learn ourhistory so we don't condemn to repeat it.
And I wanna see people walk out morepositive if they have a children on
the spectrum or if they're on thespectrum themselves, feel confident
about their own differences and not.
Let other people judge or label youand to stereotype your abilities
and your strengths and confidence.
Cliff Duvernois (03:09):
This is wonderful.
I'm gonna love this.
So Xavier, let's go back and talk aboutyour backstory about you and growing up.
So my question to you is, and growingup, was there ever a point in time
where you ever felt that you weremaybe different from everybody else?
Xavier DeGroat (03:27):
Yes.
Growing up, especially in myhigh school years, I was bullied
and I felt less than others.
I didn't feel like I could sociallycooperate with social sarcasm and nuances.
When people joke, I didn't take theirjokes as a joke when they would say,
Hey, oh, look how cool you are, Xavier.
Oh, you're gonna one day dothis, you're gonna do that.
(03:49):
Okay.
Well, thank you.
I had too much serious stuff going onat the moment that I was focused on
taking care of rather than worryingabout other people's thoughts towards me.
And a lot of it was more the negativesocial interactions I faced being
harassed and bullied when kidswould tell me, Hey, go do this.
Go do that.
And it would turn me intobeing mis disciplined and
(04:10):
mistreated by the principals.
And so that told my family, we need togo stand up and share that our son has
way more strengths in what you're seeing.
And it's not for them tojudge what my strengths are.
It's for me to go forwardwith my art and creativity.
In order to be heard properly,you have to be patient.
(04:31):
And later on in life, I learned thatsome people are more patient and found
to become mentors of my life, suchas Jamie Furbush here in Frankenmuth.
And also Henry Kissinger and even, thedi lama has taught me how to meditate and
live a life in a more peace of mind way.
Cliff Duvernois (04:49):
So you're dropping some pretty big names there.
And I wanna go back andexplore that for a second.
But let's go back to high school.
'cause you, you were talking beforeabout how people would say things
to you in a joking manner, and youwere always taken a very seriously.
How did that make you feel whenyou were going through all that?
Xavier DeGroat (05:06):
It made me feel less, not equal.
Because I didn't understand andinterpret the gray language that
they were talking and joking about.
I was very cut and dry and blackand white about the world and
more like, am I gonna be okay?
What's going on in this world?
I don't understand.
Dad and mom.
My mom and dad would be always my centraldispatch of me wanting to ask what
(05:28):
they mean, what the kids were saying.
So I just felt, instead of trying towaste my time, figuring them out, let me
figure myself out and go on with my ownheart and not be judged by other people's
Cliff Duvernois (05:42):
minds.
You were sharing before our microphonesactually went hot about how your
dad was actually pushing you tobecome more independent, that if
you did not like your circumstancesto go out there and change 'em.
Talk to us about that.
Xavier DeGroat (05:56):
I, had to go outta my comfort zone at the house.
And I always wanted to be inmy sensory room, I call it.
living in my own room and doing myown research and enjoying books.
I collected a lot ofbooks, studied history.
I was a history buff and science buff, andI loved Carl Sagan and Stephen Hawking.
There you go.
I wanted to one day meet the two,and my father had said, Hey, you
(06:19):
need to get outta your comfort zonebefore I let you do that son, and
go out to the library, take a bike.
Ride over there and get yourself someexposure so your brain becomes stronger.
'cause the brain is a muscle.
And I've proved my dad right whenI called Arnold Schwarzenegger
and he said, no pain, no gain.
The my brain is totally a muscle.
And if you don't get yourself exposed,you'll never have a full solid mindset
(06:43):
that can go out and change the world.
And therefore my dad took me on ajourney and made me travel around
the whole country and get exposed.
And I got to meet Stephen Hawking.
My dad paid for, and my dad wasmy number one financier in life.
And I call him my JP Morgan.
And I was individually, my ownThomas Edison trying to innovate.
(07:05):
And experiment with things in this world.
So I can figure out the definitionof my D duty and effort to build a
better society for those with autism.
Cliff Duvernois (07:16):
So you dropped a lot of names here and I want to kind of
circle back on this, 'cause beforeyou mention Henry Kissinger, you just
dropped Arnold Schwarzenegger, right?
You're talking about workingwith, uh, Jamie Furbish.
And I know it's not easy toget on her schedule as well.
But, and now you'vementioned Stephen Hawking.
How in the world did you reachout and connect with these people?
(07:38):
Because you're talking abouthaving conversations with them.
It's not just you watched a videoonline, but you're saying you
have conversations with them.
You had a chance to meet them.
Xavier DeGroat (07:47):
Yes.
I persisted.
I called the secretary assistantof many of them and said,
Hey, don't underestimate me.
I don't care.
Just because I'm no Tom Hanks orAlbert Einstein doesn't mean that
I won't be someone in the future.
So you're gonna count me right now ordon't count on me for granted later
when I say something about what youhave judged me and like of my tenacity.
(08:11):
'cause autism is a God-given gift.
It is not for you to determinewhat my autism can and cannot do.
Cliff Duvernois (08:16):
Oh man, I love this gift of autism.
That's beautiful.
And now your dad's pushingyou out of your comfort zone.
And apparently, 'cause I know mostpeople out there, if they would
ever say, oh well this, person likeArnold Schwarzenegger, they're my
hero, would never reach out to him.
'cause they're gonna say, there's noway I could ever get him on the phone.
You seem to be a bundle of courage.
(08:40):
When it comes to do that,talk to us about like really
stepping outta your comfort zone.
What did that feel like for you?
Xavier DeGroat (08:47):
I had to stay persistent and not let anyone define me and put me
beli belittle me like I'm less than them.
I had to go up and just step right infront of them and confront and say, Hey
can I please speak to your boss please?
I'm asking please.
I don't want you to ask me whyit's not for me to explain my
autism or my abilities to you.
(09:08):
It is for you to let me understandmyself and be accommodated through
the ADA law to provide my service inorder to reach my true depiction, you
have to let me speak directly in orderto be qualified with the perspective
that I have meeting this person.
And that was, Hey, by meeting thesepeople, I can break barriers to help raise
(09:31):
awareness at a more acceleration rate.
And build, um, the whole nation intoa more brighter shininess towards
autism rather than looking at autismas someone that is weak or someone
that is less and not persistent enough.
I was totally persistent andthat is a gift I have, and as I
did so I was consistent as well.
(09:53):
And I kept going that somepeople said, you're a pest.
One in every 10 people would saythat to me, but every one in nine
would tell me, you are terrific.
You're amazing.
I'm proud of you.
One, one in every three would tell methat you are someone that needs to go out.
And stand up and not let anyonetell you what you can and cannot
do and get, you got my words.
(10:15):
George Lopez told me when I wentto a comedy club, another new drop
down in Detroit, and George Lopezmentioned me up on stage and he
said, come back and see me after.
Xavier, I'd like you to meet my, meand my daughter is a special needs
service provider here in Chicago,going to University of Chicago,
and George Lopez told me some jokesand I didn't understand the jokes.
(10:36):
Sarcasm was one of my number onethings that I would have challenge
understanding in life, and he taughtme how to be jokey and get interactable
with people and not feel like I can'tjoke just because I'm different.
Oh, that's beautiful.
Cliff Duvernois (10:51):
And now.
On your story here, because obviouslygetting outta your comfort zone
right is not a problem for you.
And I see right before we, we press thecamera right here, former White House
intern opens autism museum in Michigan.
You went to the White House.
Xavier DeGroat (11:07):
I just not only went to the White House, I almost
snuck at the White House and RudyGiuliani told Secret Service and,
um, that, Hey, Xavier's with me.
Rudy Giuliani brought me to theWhite House in the Oval Office.
Another name dropped.
Yes.
And everywhere I went.
It's through a network of anotherprofile prior to that, and that
(11:27):
Rudy Giuliani met me when I spokein 2016 in Florida at Jupiter.
At Ernie ELs Autism Foundation.
The pro golfer Ernie ELs, supportsautism awareness, and Rudy happened
to be in a crowd, 'cause I guess hewas on a committee of the foundation
with Jet Nicholas and other officials.
So Rudy came up to meafter I spoke and said.
Let me get your number.
(11:48):
You're awesome, man.
I'll, I'll tell President Trump ifhe gets elected in 2016, he did get
elected and then they said, okay, we'llpersist him to meet you in old office.
And it took a couple years to makea half hour of his time become
available, and Rudy made it happen.
And shortly thereafter, it took meless than a half year to be accepted
as an intern at the White House.
Cliff Duvernois (12:10):
Man, this, this story just gets better and better as we go.
Let's circle back to something.
You were talking about how you were givinga presentation and how, so I, I, the
question I need to ask you then is withall the skills and all the talents that
you have, why is it that you started tobecome an advocate for people with autism?
Xavier DeGroat (12:32):
Because of my own injustices and endurances of experiencing
labeling the R word as a kid frequentlyoften made me gaslighted and want to
like discourage myself because kidswere telling me in the hallways and
schools that you can't play with us.
I guess you're too weak then, man.
I'm sorry, but.
(12:52):
It's just you and I would go up tomy special ed IEP program and ask
for the sympathy of understandingwhat is these kids trying to tell me?
And they would not tell mestuff 'cause they're saying we
weren't part of the conversation,Xavier, so we can't tell you.
So I felt that, okay, if you can answermy question, I guess I'll answer myself.
For myself and my dad taught me how todo that, and my mother taught me how
(13:13):
to stand up for myself and manage tobelieve, make my own opinion in life.
So how I did so is by going tothe library in the school, all
the way from middle school on up.
Libraries were my my therapybecause they gave me freedom to.
Take a journey through words of otherpeople in history and I read the
autobiography of Mahamas Gandhi andthe nonviolence movement of his Give
(13:37):
me the ability to feel, as long asI have peace of mind of myself and
Nonviolently explain myself to people.
I don't feel like I oweanybody any more than what.
I can share that is comingfrom my heart naturally.
I'm not here to share whatyou wanna hear from me.
I'm here to share what myheart is naturally to you.
And therefore if you don'tunderstand me, good for you.
(13:59):
I'm not gonna try to makeyou understand me anymore.
It's not for you to understandme, it's for me to be accepted by
you and for to understand us all.
'cause we're all equal and his childrenand my dad is very, um, spiritual.
And so is my mother and I metthereafter, Hey, can dad I, what
if I called Billy Graham andFranklin Graham met me, the son?
(14:22):
'cause while his dad was goingthrough Parkinson's disease,
Franklin came to Lansing and I.
I had to backstage time with me andprayed and give me a solemnly statement
saying that, Hey, as long as youkeep praying and stand up for your
abilities, that's all that matters.
You're not here to be less or judged andby other people, humans are half sins.
(14:43):
And that's the way of looking at me,and accepting me as a different person.
However, it does not make you havethe right to tell me what I think.
Differently is a sin or any sortof different, strength that you
can figure out automatically.
You have to live my life and walkin my shoes in order to fully
understand how I think in pictures.
(15:06):
And another autistic genius, thatI've met in my life, was Grandin.
And Tempo.
Grandin had described thinkingand pictures as one of the top
three levels of thinking thatpeople on the spectrum carry.
And it's not because they can't learn,um, the same as other people as long
as they have pictures in front of 'emand they can think on their own and
(15:27):
get a minute to go outside and breathe.
That breathing outside gives thema fresh perception, mobility to
quicker catch up on what's being said.
Sure.
Cliff Duvernois (15:38):
In school, I.
For our audience, we're gonna take aquick break and thank our sponsors.
When we come back, we're gonna beasking Xavier a lot of questions about
why he started his foundation andwhy the museum here is so important.
And with that being said,my name is Cliff DuVernois.
This is Total Michigan, and onceagain, I'm with Xavier DeGroat
from the Xavier DeGroat AutismFoundation located in Frankenmuth.
(15:59):
And we will see you after the break.
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(16:20):
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Hello everyone.
Welcome back to Total Michigan, wherewe interview ordinary Michiganders
doing some pretty extraordinary things.
I'm your host Cliff DuVernois.
Today we are sitting with Xavier DeGroatof the Xavier DeGroat Autism Foundation,
located in Frankenmuth, Michigan.
Xavier, before the break, we had droppeda comment a couple of times about
(16:43):
how you've started your foundation.
You have this museum thatis here in Frankenmuth.
The big question I have for youis why, why start a foundation?
Why start a museum?
Xavier DeGroat (16:54):
I started the foundation in 2018 because of my own experiences
facing challenges as a child with autism.
I was diagnosed at age four, andit started, in Lansing, Michigan.
And the Museum of Autism Historythat you're here at today started
in 2022 down in Meridian Townshipat the Meridian Mall, and we began
(17:15):
there with only 20th century history.
And here we go all the way.
To the Italian Renaissance, to the presentair, and I started it ultimately to help
fight for autism inclusion and acceptancein order to provide better feedback to
people in a neurotypical world on how tobetter understand and learn the talents
(17:35):
and creativity that Autistics have.
So they hire them and includethem with their, um, systems
that exist in this world.
And Frankenmuth here we're at rightnow is one of my original hometowns.
Visiting when I was a baby allthe way up to my 12th year age.
And that was because weare from Saginaw, Michigan.
Cliff Duvernois (17:56):
And you were mentioning this term before neuro divergent.
Talk to us about that.
I.
Xavier DeGroat (18:03):
Yes, as a neurodivergent, we don't see enough
companies or nonprofits, especiallythose that are about autism, founded
by an individual on the spectrum.
I've seen autism, self-advocacy wasfounded by an autistic that is the top one
here that is well known in the country.
And I've met the founder of that.
His name is Ari, and a great advocatefor self civil rights and individual
(18:28):
rights to become provided to those withautism throughout government and beyond.
But however, as I founded theXavier DeGroat to Autism Foundation,
it was due to my own experiencesbeing a neurodivergent, and we
need more awareness on that.
Cliff Duvernois (18:43):
And so that's really.
The starting point for having a museum,like you were just saying there, you
were sharing about how you used to be20th century, but now you've gone back
even further into the Renaissance.
Why is that important?
I.
Xavier DeGroat (19:00):
Because autism is not limited to the 20th century,
just because it was documented betterthrough the CDC being founded in the
20th century and diagnostic centers.
We didn't have all thosein the 18 hundreds and 17
hundreds all the way through.
the Italian Renaissance though however,is one of the most modern, innovative
time periods that we still livebased in benefit of today's world.
(19:23):
Such as technology innovated by Leonardoda Vinci, who would be on the Asperger
syndrome part of the spectrum, andIsaac Newton would have autism as well.
And this has been researched by manyscientists at Oxford all the way to
Harvard, and Temple GRS has said that.
So as.
Stephen Hawking and whatnot, andit's important that we learned
(19:43):
that history is not limited tojust documentation it there.
That's what archeology is tryingto research for, and that's the
purpose of us understanding.
Art and creativity from different minds.
And how you can judge that is by themechanics of how their behavior was.
you can base on how theyresearched and studied.
(20:05):
Isaac Newton, for instance,did not like social attention.
He always wanted a room with dim lights'cause he was sensitive to bright light.
He also wanted, um, to haveno one, Interfere with him.
He would have a tantrum andmeltdown if you would tell
him what he is doing is wrong.
Let me continue with myresearch on light theory.
Where does light come from?
(20:25):
And he discovered therainbow through the prism.
Having white light shinethrough it made a rainbow.
And what got him curious about that wasalso probably 'cause of his sensitivity.
So light, so that motive hit it.
Motivated him to dig.
When people on the spectrum are very,nervous or curious about something,
they don't stop asking questions.
They're skeptics and called savants.
Cliff Duvernois (20:48):
This is incredible.
I have learned so much in this last20 minutes, so thank you for that.
First off, now we're, if we'retalking about building this museum
where we're capturing all of thisrich history, like you were just
talking about, sir Isaac Newton.
Not only is this a museum, atestament to what people with autism
have accomplished and what they'vecontributed to our society as well.
(21:10):
But I don't wanna lose sightof the fact that you are
literally starting with nothing.
I.
But the sitting behind me is your boardof sponsors, where you've got people
like Meyer and you've got Saginaw Spirit,and Frankenmuth is listed up there.
And this is literally a collection ofreally established successful business
(21:30):
throughout Michigan that not only believein you, but they believe in your mission.
How did you get allthese people to say yes?
Xavier DeGroat (21:40):
I was persistent and consistent and, um, and I I
started with a down on the earthgrassroots with lower, end first like
local branches of, Chevy dealers.
When I got to one local Chevy dealer,known as Garber Chevy and Grass at Road, I
eventually, made my way up to Dick Garber.
And that was thankful by MichaelWing Klowski, who is a general
(22:04):
manager at Garber Chevy Saginaw.
And he got me a hold of DickGarber and that's from there
where you see Sagna spirit.
'cause he owns that.
And I'm proud to support them and havetheir support and it's all gonna go
forward as we keep skyrocketing with.
More and more, and you networkby, once you have one, restaurant
sponsoring you, you're probablygonna have another restaurant.
(22:26):
Once you have one bank sponsoring you,you're gonna probably have another
bank, because there's competitionof like, ooh, who's gonna do better?
Who's gonna do better?
That's just how the world works.
I learned when it comes to philanthropy.
Cliff Duvernois (22:38):
Yeah.
Competition is good.
Xavier DeGroat (22:40):
Yeah.
Cliff Duvernois (22:40):
So tell me something with, with this.
You know, museum, you've gottenall these wonderful sponsorships.
The community is just really embracingeverything that you're doing here.
what is your dream?
What is your ultimatevision for all of this?
Xavier DeGroat (22:54):
My dream is to see, people on the spectrum become their
own engineers in life by researchingwhat they are curious of and coming
up with new visions and, art ofhow the world they see differently.
So the neurotypical people see thatthere's talent in those with autism and.
By seeing that they will be moreencouraged to hire them and they will
(23:18):
be more motivated to accept them andnot judge them by their disability.
But look at how much abilitiesa personal autism can have.
That's called knowing.
Sometimes as a savant like RainMan, and you cannot tell me that
I can't count and figure this out.
Tom Cruise, Dustin Hoffman,this is, I'm not ready for you.
I'm doing my research, but later on.
(23:39):
Now you wanna brag about me, huh?
Just because I can remember all thesenumbers and count like a mathematician
statistician, like they did in a Rainman.
That's somehow how sometimes it goeson in real life with those with autism.
Others a little bit of dramaand, and that, sure, that's not
all the way accurate, but yeah.
Cliff Duvernois (23:57):
You've been sharing throughout this interview
just how much your parents.
Have supported you, how they reallypushed you out of your comfort zone,
and you made a comment before about yourdad being your equivalent of JP Morgan
to help, finance getting you out andhelping you get out of your comfort zone.
What do they think of allthat you've accomplished here?
Xavier DeGroat (24:17):
They are proud, but they are more concerned about the future
of me also being independent in life.
I'm independent at the very low end still.
I'm still trying to grow a route tobecome a full-time public speaker
through the Speakers Bureau.
I.
And when I do, so that will end up makingme an exterior, um, to the foundation.
(24:39):
And I would be happy to one daybe my own Tim Tebow Foundation.
Tim Tebow, and be a motivator speakerfor anti-human trafficking like Tim does.
I wanna do that for autism acceptance.
And I will be proud when it happensas my parents are searching for that
to take place sometime in my life.
But they're still proud that I'mtrying endlessly hard and it's all a
(25:01):
matter of how society will adapt tothat in order to make it go forward.
Cliff Duvernois (25:07):
You've really come a long way since your journey has started.
'cause we were talking before abouthow you really didn't want to go out.
You had your century room, I thinkis what you called it at home.
Yes.
Yes.
And now you're talking aboutbecoming a public speaker.
That is quite a huge step.
Do you ever look back on your life andthink, wow, I've really come a long way?
(25:30):
I.
Xavier DeGroat (25:30):
I do.
I'm always critical of myself, likewe all kind of are ourselves at times.
But I'm also very honored and I'm blessedto say that I have come a long ways.
Just in the last five years, I'velearned a lot more skills on how people
are with behavior and how to determinewhether they're happy or not happy,
(25:52):
just by their gesture and nonverbalabilities and learn how to joke.
And make people happy.
'cause people sometimes wanna escape workzone and enjoy life and talk funny stuff.
And sports for instance, 'causethat keeps people, occupied better.
And I don't see, um, that theneurotypical people, often times,
(26:14):
hear enough jokes from those withautism because they can't figure the
person with autism out generally.
Because their way of joking might bemore like, Ooh, look at the fan spinning.
Ooh, ooh.
And the repetitive behavior of the fan.
That's maybe their way ofshowing joy and talking.
But they're also very curious people.
People on the spectrum generally aredue to, they're always wanna know
(26:37):
what's behind that, what's behind that.
In fact, the puzzles on the, logos ofautism generally, are made to depict that
there's always something in the brainthat's going on that is trying to bond
up with the same color or match up withthe same piece of the puzzle in order
to occupy the full, dis instinct thatpersonal autism has when they're carrying
(27:00):
out their talent and conscientiousness.
Cliff Duvernois (27:04):
Xavier, if somebody is listening to this and they wanna
come and check out the foundation,the museum for that matter.
How can they do that?
How can they connect with you?
Xavier DeGroat (27:15):
Yeah, visit our website, xda foundation.org
and go to the click on themuseum link on the top and it
says, sign up to get a tour.
'Cause we're in and out.
We're not here all day, every day.
But we're always available totake requests to come and check it
out and we'll fit you in somehow.
Cliff Duvernois (27:33):
Xavier, thank you so much for taking time to chat with us today.
I know personally I've learned a lottoday, so thank you so much for that.
Thank you.
And for our audience, you can alwaysroll on over to Total Michigan.com,
click on Xavier's interview and you'llget the link that he mentioned above.
We'll see you next time when wetalk to another Michigander, doing
some pretty extraordinary things.
(27:53):
We'll see you then.
Hey, don't underestimate me.
(00:02):
I don't care.
Just because I'm no Tom Hanks orAlbert Einstein doesn't mean that
I won't be someone in the future.
So you're gonna count me right now ordon't count on me for granted later
when I say something about what youhave judged me and like of my tenacity.
'cause autism is a God-given gift.
It is not for you to determinewhat my autism can and cannot do.
Cliff Duvernois (00:25):
Hello everyone.
Welcome back to Total Michigan, wherewe interview ordinary Michiganders
doing extraordinary things.
I am your host Cliff DuVernois.
So if you may not be awareof this, April is actually
National Autism Awareness Month.
And I always like to showcase people onthe show that are just doing well for that
matter, just doing extraordinary things.
(00:45):
There was one story that caughtmy eye and when I saw what this
young man was doing, I was like,I need to get him onto the show.
'cause he is really working hard to breakdown those barriers that we all have when
it comes to how we look at other peopleor other people that may not exactly think
like us or look like us or whatever it is.
(01:06):
And so this gentleman today isworking hard to change how we
view people who have autism.
And with that being said, I haveXavier DeGroat with me today,
and he is the founder of theXavier DeGroat Autism Foundation,
located in Frankenmuth, Michigan.
Xavier, how are you?
(01:26):
I'm excellent.
How are you today?
I am doing awesome.
Thank you for asking.
Why don't you tell us what is theXavier DeGroat Autism Foundation?
Xavier DeGroat (01:35):
The Xavier DeGroat to Autism Foundation is dedicated to raising
awareness until we have acceptance insociety, which awareness never ends until
people become aware how to better sociallyinteract and treat people with different
abilities such as those on the spectrum.
So by doing so, we go out and.
Do police training, firefightingtraining, how to better behave
(01:58):
towards individuals on a spectrum.
We also help provide education to thecommunity out in the public while we
host programs and seminars that are gonnahold held right here that are going to
help make better world of understandingon how to properly manage what abilities
those with autism have to help contributeto the society we live in today.
Cliff Duvernois (02:21):
And you also have this location here in Frankenmuth
that people can come to and visit?
Xavier DeGroat (02:27):
Yes.
People can come to Frankenmuth andcheck out our autism history museum,
the first of its kind here in thewhole nation, and it will help.
I.
Educate you and make your mind blowup of how many people on the spectrum
have tenacity and abilities to makeimpact across the whole world, such
as Elon Musk today who has autism.
(02:47):
And it's very important that we learn ourhistory so we don't condemn to repeat it.
And I wanna see people walk out morepositive if they have a children on
the spectrum or if they're on thespectrum themselves, feel confident
about their own differences and not.
Let other people judge or label youand to stereotype your abilities
and your strengths and confidence.
Cliff Duvernois (03:09):
This is wonderful.
I'm gonna love this.
So Xavier, let's go back and talk aboutyour backstory about you and growing up.
So my question to you is, and growingup, was there ever a point in time
where you ever felt that you weremaybe different from everybody else?
Xavier DeGroat (03:27):
Yes.
Growing up, especially in myhigh school years, I was bullied
and I felt less than others.
I didn't feel like I could sociallycooperate with social sarcasm and nuances.
When people joke, I didn't take theirjokes as a joke when they would say,
Hey, oh, look how cool you are, Xavier.
Oh, you're gonna one day dothis, you're gonna do that.
(03:49):
Okay.
Well, thank you.
I had too much serious stuff going onat the moment that I was focused on
taking care of rather than worryingabout other people's thoughts towards me.
And a lot of it was more the negativesocial interactions I faced being
harassed and bullied when kidswould tell me, Hey, go do this.
Go do that.
And it would turn me intobeing mis disciplined and
(04:10):
mistreated by the principals.
And so that told my family, we need togo stand up and share that our son has
way more strengths in what you're seeing.
And it's not for them tojudge what my strengths are.
It's for me to go forwardwith my art and creativity.
In order to be heard properly,you have to be patient.
(04:31):
And later on in life, I learned thatsome people are more patient and found
to become mentors of my life, suchas Jamie Furbush here in Frankenmuth.
And also Henry Kissinger and even, thedi lama has taught me how to meditate and
live a life in a more peace of mind way.
Cliff Duvernois (04:49):
So you're dropping some pretty big names there.
And I wanna go back andexplore that for a second.
But let's go back to high school.
'cause you, you were talking beforeabout how people would say things
to you in a joking manner, and youwere always taken a very seriously.
How did that make you feel whenyou were going through all that?
Xavier DeGroat (05:06):
It made me feel less, not equal.
Because I didn't understand andinterpret the gray language that
they were talking and joking about.
I was very cut and dry and blackand white about the world and
more like, am I gonna be okay?
What's going on in this world?
I don't understand.
Dad and mom.
My mom and dad would be always my centraldispatch of me wanting to ask what
(05:28):
they mean, what the kids were saying.
So I just felt, instead of trying towaste my time, figuring them out, let me
figure myself out and go on with my ownheart and not be judged by other people's
Cliff Duvernois (05:42):
minds.
You were sharing before our microphonesactually went hot about how your
dad was actually pushing you tobecome more independent, that if
you did not like your circumstancesto go out there and change 'em.
Talk to us about that.
Xavier DeGroat (05:56):
I, had to go outta my comfort zone at the house.
And I always wanted to be inmy sensory room, I call it.
living in my own room and doing myown research and enjoying books.
I collected a lot ofbooks, studied history.
I was a history buff and science buff, andI loved Carl Sagan and Stephen Hawking.
There you go.
I wanted to one day meet the two,and my father had said, Hey, you
(06:19):
need to get outta your comfort zonebefore I let you do that son, and
go out to the library, take a bike.
Ride over there and get yourself someexposure so your brain becomes stronger.
'cause the brain is a muscle.
And I've proved my dad right whenI called Arnold Schwarzenegger
and he said, no pain, no gain.
The my brain is totally a muscle.
And if you don't get yourself exposed,you'll never have a full solid mindset
(06:43):
that can go out and change the world.
And therefore my dad took me on ajourney and made me travel around
the whole country and get exposed.
And I got to meet Stephen Hawking.
My dad paid for, and my dad wasmy number one financier in life.
And I call him my JP Morgan.
And I was individually, my ownThomas Edison trying to innovate.
(07:05):
And experiment with things in this world.
So I can figure out the definitionof my D duty and effort to build a
better society for those with autism.
Cliff Duvernois (07:16):
So you dropped a lot of names here and I want to kind of
circle back on this, 'cause beforeyou mention Henry Kissinger, you just
dropped Arnold Schwarzenegger, right?
You're talking about workingwith, uh, Jamie Furbish.
And I know it's not easy toget on her schedule as well.
But, and now you'vementioned Stephen Hawking.
How in the world did you reachout and connect with these people?
(07:38):
Because you're talking abouthaving conversations with them.
It's not just you watched a videoonline, but you're saying you
have conversations with them.
You had a chance to meet them.
Xavier DeGroat (07:47):
Yes.
I persisted.
I called the secretary assistantof many of them and said,
Hey, don't underestimate me.
I don't care.
Just because I'm no Tom Hanks orAlbert Einstein doesn't mean that
I won't be someone in the future.
So you're gonna count me right now ordon't count on me for granted later
when I say something about what youhave judged me and like of my tenacity.
(08:11):
'cause autism is a God-given gift.
It is not for you to determinewhat my autism can and cannot do.
Cliff Duvernois (08:16):
Oh man, I love this gift of autism.
That's beautiful.
And now your dad's pushingyou out of your comfort zone.
And apparently, 'cause I know mostpeople out there, if they would
ever say, oh well this, person likeArnold Schwarzenegger, they're my
hero, would never reach out to him.
'cause they're gonna say, there's noway I could ever get him on the phone.
You seem to be a bundle of courage.
(08:40):
When it comes to do that,talk to us about like really
stepping outta your comfort zone.
What did that feel like for you?
Xavier DeGroat (08:47):
I had to stay persistent and not let anyone define me and put me
beli belittle me like I'm less than them.
I had to go up and just step right infront of them and confront and say, Hey
can I please speak to your boss please?
I'm asking please.
I don't want you to ask me whyit's not for me to explain my
autism or my abilities to you.
(09:08):
It is for you to let me understandmyself and be accommodated through
the ADA law to provide my service inorder to reach my true depiction, you
have to let me speak directly in orderto be qualified with the perspective
that I have meeting this person.
And that was, Hey, by meeting thesepeople, I can break barriers to help raise
(09:31):
awareness at a more acceleration rate.
And build, um, the whole nation intoa more brighter shininess towards
autism rather than looking at autismas someone that is weak or someone
that is less and not persistent enough.
I was totally persistent andthat is a gift I have, and as I
did so I was consistent as well.
(09:53):
And I kept going that somepeople said, you're a pest.
One in every 10 people would saythat to me, but every one in nine
would tell me, you are terrific.
You're amazing.
I'm proud of you.
One, one in every three would tell methat you are someone that needs to go out.
And stand up and not let anyonetell you what you can and cannot
do and get, you got my words.
(10:15):
George Lopez told me when I wentto a comedy club, another new drop
down in Detroit, and George Lopezmentioned me up on stage and he
said, come back and see me after.
Xavier, I'd like you to meet my, meand my daughter is a special needs
service provider here in Chicago,going to University of Chicago,
and George Lopez told me some jokesand I didn't understand the jokes.
(10:36):
Sarcasm was one of my number onethings that I would have challenge
understanding in life, and he taughtme how to be jokey and get interactable
with people and not feel like I can'tjoke just because I'm different.
Oh, that's beautiful.
Cliff Duvernois (10:51):
And now.
On your story here, because obviouslygetting outta your comfort zone
right is not a problem for you.
And I see right before we, we press thecamera right here, former White House
intern opens autism museum in Michigan.
You went to the White House.
Xavier DeGroat (11:07):
I just not only went to the White House, I almost
snuck at the White House and RudyGiuliani told Secret Service and,
um, that, Hey, Xavier's with me.
Rudy Giuliani brought me to theWhite House in the Oval Office.
Another name dropped.
Yes.
And everywhere I went.
It's through a network of anotherprofile prior to that, and that
(11:27):
Rudy Giuliani met me when I spokein 2016 in Florida at Jupiter.
At Ernie ELs Autism Foundation.
The pro golfer Ernie ELs, supportsautism awareness, and Rudy happened
to be in a crowd, 'cause I guess hewas on a committee of the foundation
with Jet Nicholas and other officials.
So Rudy came up to meafter I spoke and said.
Let me get your number.
(11:48):
You're awesome, man.
I'll, I'll tell President Trump ifhe gets elected in 2016, he did get
elected and then they said, okay, we'llpersist him to meet you in old office.
And it took a couple years to makea half hour of his time become
available, and Rudy made it happen.
And shortly thereafter, it took meless than a half year to be accepted
as an intern at the White House.
Cliff Duvernois (12:10):
Man, this, this story just gets better and better as we go.
Let's circle back to something.
You were talking about how you were givinga presentation and how, so I, I, the
question I need to ask you then is withall the skills and all the talents that
you have, why is it that you started tobecome an advocate for people with autism?
Xavier DeGroat (12:32):
Because of my own injustices and endurances of experiencing
labeling the R word as a kid frequentlyoften made me gaslighted and want to
like discourage myself because kidswere telling me in the hallways and
schools that you can't play with us.
I guess you're too weak then, man.
I'm sorry, but.
(12:52):
It's just you and I would go up tomy special ed IEP program and ask
for the sympathy of understandingwhat is these kids trying to tell me?
And they would not tell mestuff 'cause they're saying we
weren't part of the conversation,Xavier, so we can't tell you.
So I felt that, okay, if you can answermy question, I guess I'll answer myself.
For myself and my dad taught me how todo that, and my mother taught me how
(13:13):
to stand up for myself and manage tobelieve, make my own opinion in life.
So how I did so is by going tothe library in the school, all
the way from middle school on up.
Libraries were my my therapybecause they gave me freedom to.
Take a journey through words of otherpeople in history and I read the
autobiography of Mahamas Gandhi andthe nonviolence movement of his Give
(13:37):
me the ability to feel, as long asI have peace of mind of myself and
Nonviolently explain myself to people.
I don't feel like I oweanybody any more than what.
I can share that is comingfrom my heart naturally.
I'm not here to share whatyou wanna hear from me.
I'm here to share what myheart is naturally to you.
And therefore if you don'tunderstand me, good for you.
(13:59):
I'm not gonna try to makeyou understand me anymore.
It's not for you to understandme, it's for me to be accepted by
you and for to understand us all.
'cause we're all equal and his childrenand my dad is very, um, spiritual.
And so is my mother and I metthereafter, Hey, can dad I, what
if I called Billy Graham andFranklin Graham met me, the son?
(14:22):
'cause while his dad was goingthrough Parkinson's disease,
Franklin came to Lansing and I.
I had to backstage time with me andprayed and give me a solemnly statement
saying that, Hey, as long as youkeep praying and stand up for your
abilities, that's all that matters.
You're not here to be less or judged andby other people, humans are half sins.
(14:43):
And that's the way of looking at me,and accepting me as a different person.
However, it does not make you havethe right to tell me what I think.
Differently is a sin or any sortof different, strength that you
can figure out automatically.
You have to live my life and walkin my shoes in order to fully
understand how I think in pictures.
(15:06):
And another autistic genius, thatI've met in my life, was Grandin.
And Tempo.
Grandin had described thinkingand pictures as one of the top
three levels of thinking thatpeople on the spectrum carry.
And it's not because they can't learn,um, the same as other people as long
as they have pictures in front of 'emand they can think on their own and
(15:27):
get a minute to go outside and breathe.
That breathing outside gives thema fresh perception, mobility to
quicker catch up on what's being said.
Sure.
Cliff Duvernois (15:38):
In school, I.
For our audience, we're gonna take aquick break and thank our sponsors.
When we come back, we're gonna beasking Xavier a lot of questions about
why he started his foundation andwhy the museum here is so important.
And with that being said,my name is Cliff DuVernois.
This is Total Michigan, and onceagain, I'm with Xavier DeGroat
from the Xavier DeGroat AutismFoundation located in Frankenmuth.
(15:59):
And we will see you after the break.
Are you enjoying this episode?
Well, I can tell youthere's a lot more to come.
Jump over to TotalMichigan.
com, enter your email address,and get on our mailing list.
You'll get a list of the topfive episodes for the show.
Along with that, you'll getall kinds of behind the scenes
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(16:20):
Just go over to TotalMichigan.
com, enter your email address today.
Hello everyone.
Welcome back to Total Michigan, wherewe interview ordinary Michiganders
doing some pretty extraordinary things.
I'm your host Cliff DuVernois.
Today we are sitting with Xavier DeGroatof the Xavier DeGroat Autism Foundation,
located in Frankenmuth, Michigan.
Xavier, before the break, we had droppeda comment a couple of times about
(16:43):
how you've started your foundation.
You have this museum thatis here in Frankenmuth.
The big question I have for youis why, why start a foundation?
Why start a museum?
Xavier DeGroat (16:54):
I started the foundation in 2018 because of my own experiences
facing challenges as a child with autism.
I was diagnosed at age four, andit started, in Lansing, Michigan.
And the Museum of Autism Historythat you're here at today started
in 2022 down in Meridian Townshipat the Meridian Mall, and we began
(17:15):
there with only 20th century history.
And here we go all the way.
To the Italian Renaissance, to the presentair, and I started it ultimately to help
fight for autism inclusion and acceptancein order to provide better feedback to
people in a neurotypical world on how tobetter understand and learn the talents
(17:35):
and creativity that Autistics have.
So they hire them and includethem with their, um, systems
that exist in this world.
And Frankenmuth here we're at rightnow is one of my original hometowns.
Visiting when I was a baby allthe way up to my 12th year age.
And that was because weare from Saginaw, Michigan.
Cliff Duvernois (17:56):
And you were mentioning this term before neuro divergent.
Talk to us about that.
I.
Xavier DeGroat (18:03):
Yes, as a neurodivergent, we don't see enough
companies or nonprofits, especiallythose that are about autism, founded
by an individual on the spectrum.
I've seen autism, self-advocacy wasfounded by an autistic that is the top one
here that is well known in the country.
And I've met the founder of that.
His name is Ari, and a great advocatefor self civil rights and individual
(18:28):
rights to become provided to those withautism throughout government and beyond.
But however, as I founded theXavier DeGroat to Autism Foundation,
it was due to my own experiencesbeing a neurodivergent, and we
need more awareness on that.
Cliff Duvernois (18:43):
And so that's really.
The starting point for having a museum,like you were just saying there, you
were sharing about how you used to be20th century, but now you've gone back
even further into the Renaissance.
Why is that important?
I.
Xavier DeGroat (19:00):
Because autism is not limited to the 20th century,
just because it was documented betterthrough the CDC being founded in the
20th century and diagnostic centers.
We didn't have all thosein the 18 hundreds and 17
hundreds all the way through.
the Italian Renaissance though however,is one of the most modern, innovative
time periods that we still livebased in benefit of today's world.
(19:23):
Such as technology innovated by Leonardoda Vinci, who would be on the Asperger
syndrome part of the spectrum, andIsaac Newton would have autism as well.
And this has been researched by manyscientists at Oxford all the way to
Harvard, and Temple GRS has said that.
So as.
Stephen Hawking and whatnot, andit's important that we learned
(19:43):
that history is not limited tojust documentation it there.
That's what archeology is tryingto research for, and that's the
purpose of us understanding.
Art and creativity from different minds.
And how you can judge that is by themechanics of how their behavior was.
you can base on how theyresearched and studied.
(20:05):
Isaac Newton, for instance,did not like social attention.
He always wanted a room with dim lights'cause he was sensitive to bright light.
He also wanted, um, to haveno one, Interfere with him.
He would have a tantrum andmeltdown if you would tell
him what he is doing is wrong.
Let me continue with myresearch on light theory.
Where does light come from?
(20:25):
And he discovered therainbow through the prism.
Having white light shinethrough it made a rainbow.
And what got him curious about that wasalso probably 'cause of his sensitivity.
So light, so that motive hit it.
Motivated him to dig.
When people on the spectrum are very,nervous or curious about something,
they don't stop asking questions.
They're skeptics and called savants.
Cliff Duvernois (20:48):
This is incredible.
I have learned so much in this last20 minutes, so thank you for that.
First off, now we're, if we'retalking about building this museum
where we're capturing all of thisrich history, like you were just
talking about, sir Isaac Newton.
Not only is this a museum, atestament to what people with autism
have accomplished and what they'vecontributed to our society as well.
(21:10):
But I don't wanna lose sightof the fact that you are
literally starting with nothing.
I.
But the sitting behind me is your boardof sponsors, where you've got people
like Meyer and you've got Saginaw Spirit,and Frankenmuth is listed up there.
And this is literally a collection ofreally established successful business
(21:30):
throughout Michigan that not only believein you, but they believe in your mission.
How did you get allthese people to say yes?
Xavier DeGroat (21:40):
I was persistent and consistent and, um, and I I
started with a down on the earthgrassroots with lower, end first like
local branches of, Chevy dealers.
When I got to one local Chevy dealer,known as Garber Chevy and Grass at Road, I
eventually, made my way up to Dick Garber.
And that was thankful by MichaelWing Klowski, who is a general
(22:04):
manager at Garber Chevy Saginaw.
And he got me a hold of DickGarber and that's from there
where you see Sagna spirit.
'cause he owns that.
And I'm proud to support them and havetheir support and it's all gonna go
forward as we keep skyrocketing with.
More and more, and you networkby, once you have one, restaurant
sponsoring you, you're probablygonna have another restaurant.
(22:26):
Once you have one bank sponsoring you,you're gonna probably have another
bank, because there's competitionof like, ooh, who's gonna do better?
Who's gonna do better?
That's just how the world works.
I learned when it comes to philanthropy.
Cliff Duvernois (22:38):
Yeah.
Competition is good.
Xavier DeGroat (22:40):
Yeah.
Cliff Duvernois (22:40):
So tell me something with, with this.
You know, museum, you've gottenall these wonderful sponsorships.
The community is just really embracingeverything that you're doing here.
what is your dream?
What is your ultimatevision for all of this?
Xavier DeGroat (22:54):
My dream is to see, people on the spectrum become their
own engineers in life by researchingwhat they are curious of and coming
up with new visions and, art ofhow the world they see differently.
So the neurotypical people see thatthere's talent in those with autism and.
By seeing that they will be moreencouraged to hire them and they will
(23:18):
be more motivated to accept them andnot judge them by their disability.
But look at how much abilitiesa personal autism can have.
That's called knowing.
Sometimes as a savant like RainMan, and you cannot tell me that
I can't count and figure this out.
Tom Cruise, Dustin Hoffman,this is, I'm not ready for you.
I'm doing my research, but later on.
(23:39):
Now you wanna brag about me, huh?
Just because I can remember all thesenumbers and count like a mathematician
statistician, like they did in a Rainman.
That's somehow how sometimes it goeson in real life with those with autism.
Others a little bit of dramaand, and that, sure, that's not
all the way accurate, but yeah.
Cliff Duvernois (23:57):
You've been sharing throughout this interview
just how much your parents.
Have supported you, how they reallypushed you out of your comfort zone,
and you made a comment before about yourdad being your equivalent of JP Morgan
to help, finance getting you out andhelping you get out of your comfort zone.
What do they think of allthat you've accomplished here?
Xavier DeGroat (24:17):
They are proud, but they are more concerned about the future
of me also being independent in life.
I'm independent at the very low end still.
I'm still trying to grow a route tobecome a full-time public speaker
through the Speakers Bureau.
I.
And when I do, so that will end up makingme an exterior, um, to the foundation.
(24:39):
And I would be happy to one daybe my own Tim Tebow Foundation.
Tim Tebow, and be a motivator speakerfor anti-human trafficking like Tim does.
I wanna do that for autism acceptance.
And I will be proud when it happensas my parents are searching for that
to take place sometime in my life.
But they're still proud that I'mtrying endlessly hard and it's all a
(25:01):
matter of how society will adapt tothat in order to make it go forward.
Cliff Duvernois (25:07):
You've really come a long way since your journey has started.
'cause we were talking before abouthow you really didn't want to go out.
You had your century room, I thinkis what you called it at home.
Yes.
Yes.
And now you're talking aboutbecoming a public speaker.
That is quite a huge step.
Do you ever look back on your life andthink, wow, I've really come a long way?
(25:30):
I.
Xavier DeGroat (25:30):
I do.
I'm always critical of myself, likewe all kind of are ourselves at times.
But I'm also very honored and I'm blessedto say that I have come a long ways.
Just in the last five years, I'velearned a lot more skills on how people
are with behavior and how to determinewhether they're happy or not happy,
(25:52):
just by their gesture and nonverbalabilities and learn how to joke.
And make people happy.
'cause people sometimes wanna escape workzone and enjoy life and talk funny stuff.
And sports for instance, 'causethat keeps people, occupied better.
And I don't see, um, that theneurotypical people, often times,
(26:14):
hear enough jokes from those withautism because they can't figure the
person with autism out generally.
Because their way of joking might bemore like, Ooh, look at the fan spinning.
Ooh, ooh.
And the repetitive behavior of the fan.
That's maybe their way ofshowing joy and talking.
But they're also very curious people.
People on the spectrum generally aredue to, they're always wanna know
(26:37):
what's behind that, what's behind that.
In fact, the puzzles on the, logos ofautism generally, are made to depict that
there's always something in the brainthat's going on that is trying to bond
up with the same color or match up withthe same piece of the puzzle in order
to occupy the full, dis instinct thatpersonal autism has when they're carrying
(27:00):
out their talent and conscientiousness.
Cliff Duvernois (27:04):
Xavier, if somebody is listening to this and they wanna
come and check out the foundation,the museum for that matter.
How can they do that?
How can they connect with you?
Xavier DeGroat (27:15):
Yeah, visit our website, xda foundation.org
and go to the click on themuseum link on the top and it
says, sign up to get a tour.
'Cause we're in and out.
We're not here all day, every day.
But we're always available totake requests to come and check it
out and we'll fit you in somehow.
Cliff Duvernois (27:33):
Xavier, thank you so much for taking time to chat with us today.
I know personally I've learned a lottoday, so thank you so much for that.
Thank you.
And for our audience, you can alwaysroll on over to Total Michigan.com,
click on Xavier's interview and you'llget the link that he mentioned above.
We'll see you next time when wetalk to another Michigander, doing
some pretty extraordinary things.
(27:53):
We'll see you then.
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