August 5, 2024 • 56 mins
Welcome to Episode 32 of Touched Out! A Mental Health Podcast for Parents.
In this episode, we explore the emotional journey of sudden loss with Kate, a courageous solo parent who shares her deeply personal experience of losing her husband, Tim, to pneumonia. Kate's story is a testament to the power of community support and the importance of accepting help during life's most challenging moments.
The Emotional Impact of Grief on Families
We delve into the diverse emotional responses to grief within Kate's family. From her children's coping mechanisms to the essential community resources that aided their healing, we discuss the significant role that tailored support systems play in navigating such profound loss. Our conversation also includes my own experiences with parental loss, emphasizing the value of open communication and emotional intelligence.
Embracing Help and Building New Foundations
Kate's journey from independence to embracing assistance highlights the strength found in vulnerability. We explore the critical importance of self-care and the practical steps her family took to rebuild their lives. The discussion touches on the challenges of societal expectations around grief and the bittersweet moments of watching children grow in the wake of loss.
Finding New Joy and Creating a New Normal
As we reflect on the evolving dynamics of Kate's family, we share practical strategies for managing grief and discovering new sources of joy. The episode concludes with a heartfelt tribute to those we've lost, celebrating the enduring power of cherished memories and meaningful experiences.
Key Takeaways:
- The importance of community support in navigating grief
- The varied emotional responses to loss within families
- The value of tailored support systems and open communication
- Embracing help as a strength, not a weakness
- Strategies for finding joy and creating a new normal after loss
Join the Conversation
We invite you to join us in discussing the journey of grief and resilience. Share your thoughts and experiences on social media, and let's work together to support one another through life's toughest challenges.
Thanks for listening to Touched Out: A Mental Health and Parenting Support Podcast.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Acknowledgement (00:01):
We would like to acknowledge the traditional
custodians of this land.
We pay our respects to theElders past, present and
emerging, for they hold thememories, the traditions and the
culture of the Aboriginal andTorres Strait Islander people
across the nation.
Carter (00:18):
Warning this podcast contains explicit language and
discusses sensitive topicsrelated to mental health
childhood trauma, birth trauma,abuse, miscarriage and suicide.
Listener discretion is advised.
If you find these subjectsdistressing or triggering, we
recommend taking caution andconsidering whether to proceed
with listening.
If you or someone you know isstruggling, please reach out to
(00:40):
a mental health professional ora trusted individual for support
.
Your wellbeing is our priority.
Hello and welcome to TouchedOut a mental health podcast for
parents.
I'm your host, carter, andtoday we are speaking to Kate.
Kate shares her story ofbecoming a solo parent after the
sudden death of her husband.
She discusses the challenges ofgrief, dealing with mental
health and raising her children.
(01:01):
Kate emphasises the importanceof accepting help, taking care
of oneself and finding supportin the community.
She also talks about thedifferent ways her children have
processed their grief and theimportance of open communication
and understanding.
(01:58):
Okay, so today we have Kate.
Kate is from Romsey and she hasthree biological children and
two stepchildren, all in their30s.
Is that right?
That's correct, Sorry two intheir 30s.
You've got a 14 year old, a 16year old and a 28 year old.
Kate (02:15):
Yes, correct.
Carter (02:17):
I'm not reading too well this morning.
I've just yet as usual when Irecord I've finished up a 12
hour shift.
So welcome to the podcast.
Thank you very, very much forjoining me.
You were actually one of the,I'd say, first five people that
put through an application and,through no fault of your own, I
think, I lost your applicationand we lost contact for quite a
(02:39):
while.
So better late than never.
Kate (02:40):
No worries, yeah, no, I'm really happy to be here and I
guess just to be able to share astory is a fantastic
opportunity.
Carter (02:47):
So thanks for allowing it More than welcome, all right,
so I mean, your story is alittle bit of a rough trot, so I
guess everyone needs to buckleup and yeah, let's get it
started.
Tell me a little bit aboutyourself, a little bit about
your history.
Kate (03:01):
Yes, I would say so.
If we start with sort of Kate'shistory, I think I really had a
great run for a long time.
I would describe my life, asyou know, being lots of rainbows
and unicorns and largely youknow, I came from very
middle-class upbringing.
My dad was a firefighter, mymum was a homemaker, went to a
(03:22):
school here locally in MacedonRanges and then ventured out
into the world and explored andlearned and did lots of
wonderful things.
I met my husband in my 30s andI met him over in and we were
together for 17 years, marriedfor 15 years and we had three
children together.
So he had two children from aprior marriage.
(03:43):
We had three children together,so he had two children from a
prior marriage.
We had three children togetherand in September 2017, he took
the kids camping and when heleft he wasn't feeling
particularly well.
He had a bout of the flu.
Anyway, he got very, very sickwhile they were away and
contracted pneumonia and died.
So all of a sudden, thoserainbows and unicorns just
(04:05):
seemed like I was in acompletely different world and
it just happened so quickly.
So one week was waving goodbyeto them and handing him a
Panadol and the next week wassitting in an ICU unit and what
I really wanted to share as aresult of that story was a
couple of things.
So I think there was beingsuddenly a solo parent and in a
(04:28):
different world than the worldthat I knew previously, dealing
with grief, dealing with kidsand dealing with mental health.
So I guess all of that sort ofcollided in that sort of you
know, september and I thoughtyou know, the first.
Still to me, the first threemonths after Tim's death were a
bit of a blur, but I have, youknow, I definitely have moments
(04:48):
still where you just you knowgrief never leaves you.
There's always a part in yourheart for that person.
But I think what I wanted toshare was what were some of the
things that got me through thatperiod, that got the kids
through that period.
And if people are stilllistening at this point, I would
also say going on to have ahappy, healthy life and letting
these it may not be grief forsome people, but those things in
(05:11):
life that get you and take youand just tumble you over, that
you can go on and have a happyand fulfilling life.
Someone had said to me you know, let the grief shape you and
not define you, and I think thatthat has just been a beautiful
lesson for me and one that I'vetried to pass on to the kids.
Our three biological childrenwere very young at the time
(05:32):
eight, 10 and 12.
And Tim's other kids were bothin their twenties at the time.
So, and I can see how it hasshaped all of their lives and
you know it's a juggle as aparent when you're trying to
help them and deal with your ownloss as well.
So I thought I wrote a fewnotes to help me stay on track.
(05:54):
But there was a couple ofthings that really impacted me
during that time, and it wasn'treally till I came.
I don't think you're everreally out the other side, but
you know, until you actuallystart to process, that there
were things that happened aroundme that were just so helpful
and some things that I needed tochange.
So I'll start with one of thethings that I needed to change
was I'm not someone that asksfor help.
(06:16):
I have been fiercely independentmost of my life and my mom
tells me some great storiesabout, you know, when I was sort
of two and four and I'd say, nome, do it, me, do it.
And I think some of that's youknow carried through.
I was the breadwinner in ourhousehold and Tim was like the
wind beneath my wings, so he didall of the you know before and
after school things and kids,sport and all those other things
(06:36):
that keep parents really busy.
And I remember he said to meone point you know, I don't know
what you'd do without me.
And well, now I know what Iwould do.
But I remember thinking thesame thing.
We were a team and so when hepassed away and it was so sudden
, I had this big job.
I worked for one of the bigfour banks.
I had a very big job.
(06:56):
I had lots of people, lots ofdemands on me at work.
Tim had a business, he had aJim's Mowing franchise, so I
couldn't manage.
I'm not a gardener, and so youknow that was kind of, and I had
clients calling me and I hadthree kids, and so it was just.
It was a high stress time and Ijust had to ask for help.
And you know, one of the Ithink one of the biggest help
(07:20):
for me was community.
To this day, and this isactually part of the reason why
I said, hey, I'll do the podcastas well, because I want to pay
back for that beautifulexperience that I had.
So you know, for example, myfridge was constantly full of
food for three months but mypeople came and just took my
kids.
They took them to.
They didn't miss a cricketlesson.
They didn't like.
(07:40):
Routine went on for them isprobably better than saying life
went on on for them.
Obviously it was a hugeadjustment for them, but I found
it difficult to accept thathelp.
I'm not really sure why, but Ithink because it made me feel
like I wasn't on top of things.
But I'm so grateful for it andpeople still to this day.
You know I'll find that I needto be on a barbecue in
(08:02):
Lancefield and at a netball gamein Sunbury, and it just.
You know I can't be in twoplaces at once and I'm not a
single parent, I'm a solo parent.
It's just me.
I don't get weekends off wherethey go to my partner.
It's just me.
Carter (08:16):
There's a massive distinction between single and
solo.
Kate (08:20):
Yeah.
So I've really learnt to acceptthat help.
So that was lesson number one.
You know, accept help when it's.
And the second I would say waspeople.
I worked in the airline industryfor a long time and people said
to me you know, it's reallyimportant that you put your own
oxygen mask on first and, youknow, then look after the kids.
(08:40):
And this is one of the thingsthat I think, in reflection, I
didn't have.
I needed someone to put theoxygen mask on me.
I didn't have the strength, theenergy to put my own oxygen
mask on, which is again why I'mjust so grateful for the
community help that I got inthat time, because that was them
putting the oxygen mask on meand just making sure that some
(09:01):
of those basics were.
You know, we had meals on thetable, the kids were, you know,
socialising, they were at sportand those sorts of things.
So I think that was interestingto me because I felt like I
need to do this stuff for thekids, but I couldn't even look
after myself in terms of, youknow, just being overwhelmed
with grief.
So having other people put myoxygen mask on for me allowed me
(09:22):
to be there for the kids, whichwas really beautiful.
Carter (09:26):
Absolutely.
That's an amazing sense ofcommunity that a small country
town of Romsey can truly getbehind.
You probably wouldn't see thatlevel of community spirit and
rallying together in outersuburbs or inner suburbs of
Melbourne or big cities.
Kate (09:44):
Yeah, I often wonder that and I do see you know city folk,
friends of mine, but I do thinkyou know I'm far more connected
to community here and again, sograteful for that.
But a couple of things alsojust on.
Solo parenting was so, again,just take all the help that you
can.
I think that's really important.
But for me I found routine soand I think that was helpful for
(10:06):
the kids as well, and I stillhave it to this day.
I put a whiteboard in thekitchen which just had where
everyone was, what the mealswere that we're having, and it
takes me maybe I don't know halfan hour to 45 minutes each week
to just populate that.
But it was kind of like, afterlosing everything, just such a
small gesture of structure andpredictability in your life.
(10:28):
So that was a really, I guess,a small thing that I did.
That made a big difference.
Now that we're a little furtherdown the track, I just sort of
I'll point to the whiteboard ifthe kids will say, mom, and it's
like it's not on the whiteboard, it's not happening.
So it just helps us cometogether as a family and also
for us to see conflictingdiaries and what have you, when
we can work stuff out.
(10:48):
So that's been a really goodtip.
The other one was and this isobviously pre-COVID, but the
beauty of online shopping andactually having Coles of
Woolworths deliver yourgroceries.
So I was a bit sceptical of it,but it was an absolute life
changer for me in terms of timesavings.
I actually used to quite enjoywalking around the aisles, but I
(11:08):
didn't have that time afterimpasse.
So that was another one thatjust you know a small thing that
you can do that just gave meback some time and time's so
precious.
And then the other was to justfind time for yourself, right,
and be really kind to yourself.
Like it's okay if the kids havetoasted sandwiches for dinner
occasionally and you do or bakedbeans on toast.
Like, give yourself a chop outand find that time.
(11:31):
Whatever it is for you.
Sometimes for me it's walkingthe dogs.
I love to swim.
I generally love to swimbecause no one can talk to me
when I'm under the water.
But yeah, I think just what'sthat thing that you know gives
you a little bit of peace andjust takes you out of that
everyday moment, because it canbe relentless, and I actually
found that was really good formy mental health.
(11:53):
I think post and part of youknow what I've been working on
myself with various counsellorsand communities is like anxiety
for me.
So you know I still havemoments now that if the kids are
out they're pretty good attexting me, but I'll just think
the worst, the worst thingshappened.
So I think just having thoselittle chop out moments for
yourself where you break thatcycle of negative thought or is
(12:14):
really important and it's goingto be different things for
different people, but one for me, which is a larger chopper, is
swimming, because all I thinkabout is the lap that I'm doing.
And the other one my daughtertaught me, which is just
touching each of your fingers.
Peace starts with me and it'sjust a little circuit breaker.
That has been incrediblyhelpful technique for me.
(12:36):
If I start to worry, you knowyou bring those worries forward
from the future.
They haven't even happened yetand you've got enough on your
plate.
That's just been a lovelylittle circuit breaker for my
own mental health.
Carter (12:47):
Finger tapping is a very , very common stim for
sensory-seeking autistic people.
I myself and my wife areneurodiverse we're both on the
spectrum and I am a big fingertapper.
I find that if I don't utilizefinger tapping or have like
fidget jewelry I've got like afidget ring that I can spin my
stimming becomes destructive andI start like picking skin off
(13:08):
my fingers and all of a suddenI've got bloody fingertips.
So wow, so yeah, um.
So finger tapping is a massive,massive stim for a sensory seek
, yeah, so you know find yourthing yeah, find your.
Find what you love and let itconsume you.
Is that the saying?
Kate (13:26):
Yeah, I think so yeah.
Carter (13:27):
Yeah, something like that.
Awesome, I mean, you've thrownso much information at me, but
we'll take a few steps back.
We'll go back to onlineshopping.
Absolutely amazing.
Two of the three of my children, I don't think, have even seen
the inside of a Coles or aWoolworths.
I'm a 90s kid myself, so itwill always be Safeway to me and
(13:51):
no one can tell me different.
We do all our shopping onlinepretty much because we don't
really enjoy being in public.
It takes a lot out of us.
We're very much homebodies.
We rely on each other for allof our needs to be met.
So the fact that your husbandpassed suddenly and you were
(14:12):
just thrown into a completelynew life I won't say starting
over, because you know life'sobviously a spectrum, but it was
definitely a pause and a splitclip and then you were starting
an entirely new chapter Musthave been incredibly daunting.
So I am terribly, not terribly.
I am empathetic to your loss.
(14:32):
I can't even imagine how hardit must have been.
I lost my mother, so I knowgrief from the standpoint of a
son losing a parent.
But a couple of years ago mywife came home and she was like
I have some news to tell you.
I have put it off too long andlike I'm dreading it, but I
found a lump in my breast and mymom passed from breast cancer
(14:56):
and I just remember this.
Just this overwhelming dreadwashed over my entire existence
and I just completely broke downand I just thought, like this
fucking thing cannot take thesecond most important person in
my life after my mom.
And fuck, I was scared and itturned out okay, but just just
(15:18):
even being teased with thechance of losing a partner yeah
completely fucked me, yeah, so.
So for you to actually gothrough it and come out on the
other side, okay, is reallyreally inspiring, really
inspiring.
I didn't expect to get soemotional so early.
Acknowledgement (15:34):
It was a messy middle for a long time.
Carter (15:35):
Oh, I don't doubt it.
I don't doubt it, but you know,to see you here now, being able
to talk about it openly andfreely and allow yourself those
vulnerabilities and be able toclearly communicate your
self-care journey and smileabout these things is truly a
testament to all of that workthat you put in.
So I'm sure you've heard itfrom many people in your life
that are close to you, but justfrom a random internet stranger.
(15:57):
I'm proud of you, well done.
Acknowledgement (16:00):
Thank you.
Carter (16:02):
So I want to talk a little bit about your children
and how their grief presented.
You said that they were okaybecause the routine continued
and everything, but obviouslythere would have been a lot of
lows and a lot of highs, asgrief tends to cause.
Kate (16:19):
if you want to discuss that a little bit, so look, the
kids are all great kids, want todiscuss that a little bit.
So look, the kids are all greatkids.
But what I found reallyinteresting and I learned
through this is that griefimpacts everybody really
differently.
So one of the things in talkingabout communities the school
which actually I'm going to do ashout out for Assumption in
(16:41):
Kilmore, it's my wife's school.
So they had a counsellor herefor us the day after Tim passed
and she did a family counsellingsession and it was just
beautiful, like it was.
You know when I say beautiful,it felt like someone just gave
us a big, warm, squeezy hug andwe were all still obviously in,
but that just allowed us.
(17:03):
I think that early interventionjust allowed us.
I think that early interventionjust allowed us to kind of go
gosh, we've got a journey aheadof us here, we've got each other
.
This is terrible thing that'shappened, but there are people
that want to help us so it waslike I'm probably even putting
too much word, too many wordsaround it, but there was
something about that immediatehaving someone there was,
(17:24):
outside of the family, butbrought us together and just
allowed us to be vulnerable andtalk about our fears and, you
know, crying and all that sortof stuff was really helpful.
And then I also was fortunateenough that we had an employee
assistance program at work thatI tapped into as well, so we did
a session with them.
I didn't enjoy, I think you'vegot to find.
(17:44):
You've got to find your vibeand your person in these
circumstances as well.
And I didn't really connectwith the EAP counsellor but I
did get a referral to a localgrief counsellor and my oldest.
He just wouldn't do any of itand he was 13 at the time.
But this is where I think theschool were fantastic that they
had a school captain at the timewhich my son was.
(18:05):
I think the school werefantastic that they had a school
captain at the time which myson was school captain last year
, so he did do a great journeybut that really impacted him.
Ollie still talks to me about,you know, the school captain
coming and sort of he wouldn'tsay giving me a warm up, but
just talking to him and findingout what he needed at school.
Did he want people to know?
Did he not want people to know?
Plus, I think, a few of theteachers were there.
(18:27):
So Ollie found his own waythrough.
But he's very quite.
He internally processes thingsand, I would say, used his small
circle of friends and family ashis support group.
My middle son a character.
He's very emotional and I thinkfor his age at the time so he
(18:48):
was about 10, he was really goodat labelling his emotions,
which were no terrifying is notthe word but so upsetting for me
, like you just want to fix itand you can't fix it as a parent
, but you know his fear, hisloss, his grief, his sadness,
all of those things he wasreally good at labelling and he
(19:11):
also uses his friend group a lot.
But he really got into thegrief counselling and he came
out with little techniques thathe would share with me and I
really think that was sovaluable for him at the time.
He's now 16, is that correct?
Carter (19:28):
Is that the 16-year-old now?
Kate (19:29):
Yes, yeah.
So he, you know he went through.
I mean he does have anxiety andhe's been diagnosed with that,
but he knows that he's got itand he knows what his triggers
are.
But I'm so proud of him andeven now, like we went through,
we went through a bit of a roughpatch, even about 12 months ago
, where you know he gets it'sanxiety, but it'll be it's fear
(19:51):
of things and it's that realsense of loss and grief that
just comes back to him.
And you know it's so hard for ateenage boy to not have their
dad.
I think it's hard for everyoneto not have their dad.
But I think he and Tim werethey had a, they would sort of
take energy off each other.
(20:12):
And he's our little extrovertand you know he loves his sport
and all those sorts of things.
So I think I'm so proud of himfor he still, to this day will
say, actually I need to go andsee someone.
So he has got ongoing, you know, counselling and he uses that
when he needs to use it.
And you know, to have a16-year-old son that will say to
(20:33):
me Mum, I think his name isMatt too I need to go and have a
session with Matt is really,really awesome, but he does
worry me just in terms of he'sgot a big.
I can see that Tim's and thisis not a judgmental thing Tim's
left a big hole in his life andI just want him to fill that
with the right things, not thewrong things.
(20:53):
So that's, and he's a teenageboy, so I sort of go there is
this path that he needs to gothrough, but just really sort of
making sure that he's got goodinfluences around him, that we
have open dialogue All of thosesorts of things are really
important.
So he's probably the mostvisual with his grief and when
he's in a good place or not agood place, which is actually
really helpful for me as hisparent.
(21:15):
But at the same time, it'sreally terrifying because I can
see it with the other two.
I don't necessarily know.
They're far more internallywith how they process their,
their grief.
My daughter also went to griefcounseling and she um, you know
that was really good for her aswell, like that worked for her.
She still loved going toRosemary was her name.
She stopped going to seeRosemary.
(21:35):
I think that she felt that, um,I mean, now that she, she's
older, her reflection is thatshe didn't want to burden me.
So that makes me, you know, itmakes me love her, but it also
makes me sad.
But I'm happy that she had thatpath.
So I think for each of them it'sbeen very, very different
journeys, and how griefmanifests is, you know, it's
(21:57):
really interesting Like Olliewill like acknowledge something
like Father's Day, whereas theother two will just be.
It's just too much, it's toooverwhelming.
I just leave me alone on thatday and I have my own.
I have my own triggers andthings as well.
So I think what's been reallyimportant for us is to be able
to have those conversations atthe whether it's at the dinner
time table or it's in the cartogether about how we're feeling
(22:18):
or what we miss, and I'm reallyconscious of keeping Tim's
memory available to them.
So you know we go and visitTim's parents.
They live in Perth, you know Imake sure that they still have
strong connections with thatside of the family, which is
also helpful for them.
But again, community's been abig part in that.
Sport's been a very big part intheir mental health and
(22:41):
wellbeing, diet.
I mean, you know some of thosethings I think, well, if I can't
get in and help you with theanxiety and let you sit in it
for a while, which I think I'velearned is sometimes that's the
best way to do it.
Just make sure that I'm youknow they're not in a spiral.
But they need to express theirgrief, they need to feel it.
But when they are doing that, Ialso want to make sure that
(23:05):
they're sleeping, that they'vegot you know, that they've got a
bit of routine around them andnot everything's sort of
crumbling.
So, yeah, I think thatlistening to kids trying to have
a dialogue about what theirtriggers are, just so you're
aware, because sometimes I thinkyou need to go to those spaces
and that's what grief's aboutLike you've got to feel that
loss.
So it's not stopping them fromfeeling it, it's being there to
catch them on the other side ofit.
Carter (23:25):
Yeah, and being really in the moment just with kids.
In general, it's so easy tobrush what they're telling you
to the side because that's howit was.
Kate (23:36):
Oh, hello, can you?
Carter (23:37):
hear me now?
Oh, hello, can you hear me now?
Kate (23:40):
Yeah, I can.
Carter (23:41):
Yep, sorry, excuse me, it's so easy to brush a kid's
feelings to the side becausethat's how it was when I grew up
.
You know kids are to be seenand not heard.
So I still catch myself and mywife will catch me doing it when
my son, who's on the spectrum,or my daughter, who we suspect
is ADHD, is kind of in meltdownand they're completely
dysregulated and they're likethrowing hissy fits or they've
(24:03):
stubbed their toe or somethinglike that, and my immediate
reaction is to fix and not tolet them feel and I'll be like
you'll be okay, and I stopmyself and I'm like that's so
condescending and that's sodismissive of what they're
experiencing right now.
And how can I expect for them togrow up emotionally regulated
(24:24):
and emotionally intelligenthuman beings if their safe space
is already dismissing theirviews of the world?
So now I'm very much liketrying to be like are you okay?
Not, you'll be okay, are youokay?
What can I do for you right now?
If you don't know what I can dofor you, I'm happy just to sit
(24:44):
with you, feel your feels.
Pain is a real thing.
Just do what you need to do.
I'm here for hugs or kisses orwhatever you need.
Kate (24:51):
And you know what that just be with you Sometimes.
I found that heartbreaking andI'll just give you an example.
Remember, one night and it musthave, it would have been sort
of within the first six monthsand, um, all three of them came
into my bedroom and we just allsat on the bed and cried.
But there was something thatwas so beautiful about doing
that together and you know ourlittle snotty faces and red eyes
(25:16):
and but I am grateful that theyfeel that with me, that they
can be that vulnerable andlikewise I can be that
vulnerable with them.
So I do think, yeah, theoverwhelming need as a parent
and a provider to fix stuff.
It's hard to.
You know, I find my headbecause I'm in HR as well.
(25:37):
Right, so I'm about fixingproblems and problems with
people.
Find my head because I'm in hras well.
Carter (25:40):
Right, so I was all about.
Kate (25:40):
You are literally a fixer with people, yeah and to just be
and let it sit and sit in thepain and the uncomfortable
uncomfortable, but is, I guess,something else that I've learned
?
But it's just so strengtheningat the at the end of that, and
also, I think it's given themtheir own coping skills, rather
than me saying, hey, let's dothis, and kind of, yeah, as I,
as you said, just brushing itunder the carpet, just sitting
(26:01):
with it and being with it andletting it manifest is helpful.
Carter (26:06):
It's very helpful.
I don't know how we got to thisstage in society where talking
about those things isuncomfortable, is so
uncomfortable.
The entire spectrum of emotionis a natural human response to
outside or inside stimulus andevery all of its normal.
(26:26):
Sadness is normal, grief isnormal.
Missing someone that's nolonger there is completely
normal.
But for some reason we're justlike.
Kate (26:33):
This is fucking uncomfortable yeah, and and we
anger right, they the beingreally cranky and pissed off
that this awful thing hashappened to me.
And the other interesting uglyemotion that I felt a lot, and I
think the kids have as well, isjealousy.
So I mean and it is a yucky, Idon't like jealousy, but I
(26:55):
remember early, you know well, Istill do feel it now
occasionally, but I rememberearly days I went just down to
the IGA it must've been Easterweekend or something and I felt
like everywhere I looked, all Icould see was families, you know
, mom, dad, kids, and I was likethat is just so unjust and I
kept you all.
And you know it was just thisawful, awful feeling.
(27:16):
But yeah, it's, it's your lossand your grief, and the kids
will say the same thing.
You know there's so many thingsthat still happen today.
I mean, we've still got such along way to go with gender
diversity and family constructs.
But you know we're having aFather's Day this, we've got a
Mother's Day that, we've gotFather and Son nights or you
know, I think people talkspecial people now, but all of
those things were reallydifficult for us to kind of face
(27:39):
into.
And you know, no, dad's notcoming and you know, okay, we'll
have a like just having to asktheir uncles or whatever to be
their special person.
Just, it's all tough tonavigate and it's all.
Just all these little thingsare triggers and I think people,
unless you go through it and Irecognize my own ignorance until
I went through it as well andI'm sure that I offend people
(28:00):
every day with stuff that Ithink and the unconscious biases
that I carry around but I thinkkindness is something that
everyone can do.
That is extended to everysituation where people have got
their backstories.
So that's my other thing bekind and courageous.
Carter (28:14):
I mean be kind, just in general.
That's kind of my mantra withlife is be kind and have fun and
don't let your fun impact thefun of others.
We're all in it together.
We're all just monkeys sharinga giant space rock at the end of
the day, if you look at it inits most basic of terms,
(28:36):
Relatively young species when itcomes to the age of the
universe.
So I like how far we have comein emotional intelligence in the
past.
You know, decade or two decadesor however long you want to
kind of go with.
And then the introduction ofthe internet and the ability to
connect worldwide and createcommunities worldwide is both an
(28:56):
incredible and positive tool,but can equally be destructive
and negative and yucky.
But I think we're stepping inthe right direction and we're
getting there.
I did want to duck back totalking about being in public
and seeing people with theirfamilies and feeling those
feelings of hatred, and it's alltoo familiar for me.
(29:17):
It's just such a weird thingbecause you can never predict
how it will manifest and to thisday, you know, my mum passed
2015, December 2015.
And to this day I'm stillfinding new triggers that I
didn't know existed.
I'll watch my kids with my wife.
Kate (29:35):
Yeah.
Carter (29:36):
And I get fucking angry.
I still get angry, not at mywife, like I love the fact that
they are able to have thoseexperiences, but I get angry
that I don't get to have thoseexperiences with my mum anymore.
And my wife never got to meetmy mum and she grieves.
Mum passed almost three yearsbefore I met my wife.
Every Mother's Day, my wifewill cry with me because she was
(29:59):
robbed of having amother-in-law.
Acknowledgement (30:02):
Yeah.
Carter (30:03):
She was robbed of those experiences and my wife loves
gardening.
My mum was a gardener and, likeI always, we always talk about
just this perfect little likesummer day where mum comes over
and hangs out with hergrandchildren and hangs out with
her grandchildren.
My wife and her get out and dothis big working bee in the
backyard and the kids are allinvolved and they've all got
(30:24):
their little shovels and mum'sdrinking wine and my wife's
drinking beers and they're alljust sitting there hanging shit
on dad because he refuses to doany of the gardening as well.
She's fucking angry too.
She's like I don't get thatexperience and that sucks.
But yeah, it's horrible andit's a horrible thing that one
day we'll have to go through.
Kate (30:43):
Yeah, yeah, and I think that anger.
You know, if you think you knowpeople love to.
Also, when you lose someone,shove that bloody, tubular grief
curve underneath your nose.
But do you know what, like I go, yeah, I think two things.
I go.
Yes, you feel all of thoseemotions but it doesn't
necessarily work in that sort ofit's not something that you
(31:04):
come back and forth.
And, as you said, right, thosetriggers I can't remember what
it was, but I did have one theother day, completely out of the
blue.
I was like, oh wow, I'm feelingit they continue to come.
But I also think that griefI've tried to reframe this, that
grief, I've tried to reframethis that's my son would say
don't speak, HR, let's HR speak.
But to make it a positive thatI sort of go.
(31:27):
Grief is that reminder that Istill love him and I miss him,
which has also just been anotherhelpful sort of circuit breaker
in my own thinking, rather thanit doesn't mean I don't go
there, I go there a lot aboutlike, why did this freaking
happen to me?
But I do love being able toconnect that grief to the love
that we had and that I stillhave for him.
Yeah, and I encourage the kidsto do the same things.
(31:48):
Okay, that's those feels.
That's dad, that's rememberingand feeling that love that
you're still carrying for dad inyour heart.
It's nice.
Carter (31:58):
And the thing that people also don't understand or
don't really kind of equate togrief, is the positive feelings
as well.
You can have positive griefexperiences.
We are very, very active intalking about my mother with my
kids and, like, from a young age, my daughter.
I've got a photo just up hereon the wall of my mum.
We had never told my daughter,my oldest Hendrix, who that was,
(32:19):
and I've talked about this onthe podcast before, but I'll
tell you again anyway, one day,you know, she walked up to the
photo and she was looking at herand pointing at her and I said
who's that baby?
And she goes that's Nan Nan.
And I'd never told her anythingabout that photo.
I'd never told her that thatwas my mum.
Like we didn't even call hernan nan, she would.
(32:42):
She would have been um nana,yeah, um.
So that's nan nan and I saidokay, who's nan nan?
She said that's your mummy andI said how do you know my mummy?
And she said she comes andvisitors, visits me on my
birthday and it fucking gets meevery time.
But I'm not crying for sadnessbecause that's beautiful and
that's such a cool experiencethat I've had with my daughter
that I wouldn't have had if mumwas still here.
I mean, I'd always 100% preferher here, but it's still pretty
(33:07):
cool.
Kate (33:08):
You've opened up a whole other vibe to talk to.
But I feel Tim's presence a lot, and so do the kids, and you
know, there's some moments wherethat's just such a strength for
you guys both going now, such astrength for me and it might be
something like, you know, I canbe just be having the most shit
day and I'll walk in and see alittle white feather and I go.
(33:31):
You know, I got you honey.
I am doing this, I am doingthis on my own and, look, I have
lots of, I have lots ofconversations with Tim and it's
really important to me.
You know, I married him, I lovedhim, we had three kids together
and I think that conversationyou've just shared with your
daughter, I encourage the kidslikewise.
I love that.
(33:52):
It's so true, right?
There's so many happy momentsand so many beautiful memories
and we have lots of rituals.
I think these are another great, I guess, connector through
grief.
But we have a lot of greatrituals that Tim established in
our family.
He was a great adventurer, sowe have a little.
Whenever we go on holidays, we,you know hashtag nutbags on
tour or adventure adventure andthey're all little nods to him
(34:16):
and you know the legacy thathe's left.
Carter (34:19):
Yeah, and that's how they live on.
That's, you know that and andthat's beautiful, it's.
It's just, it's it's strange.
Uh, grief is strange.
It does weird things to thepeople and you know, the dark
humor can come along and you,one minute, you can find
yourself making reallyinappropriate jokes that people
that didn't know the person thatpassed away would be mortified
(34:41):
at.
But we're totally okay to makethe jokes because we're fucking
dealing with the grief and Ithink you know all of those
tools and tactics and ways inwhich we do grieve are all
leading to healing.
Kate (34:54):
Yeah, I agree, and that you know where we sort of
started with that.
So I think there's lots ofpeople who like to just put it
in a box and particularly death,people don't want to talk about
it.
But I think that I love that.
Let it shape you, not defineyou, like you know again,
because we do have a life aheadof us and I think you know,
particularly with our biologicalkids, or even actually Tim's
other kids, they've got fulllives to have ahead of them and
(35:15):
this shouldn't stop them frommoving ahead.
But of course, it's going toshape them.
They lost their dad when theywere young.
So I love allowing them to say,yeah, this is a part of your
life, but it doesn't need tostop you from being the best
person.
You're having the best lifethat you can have and it's also
okay to some some days to sit inthat grief.
It's that is part of allowingto shape you.
Carter (35:37):
So, yeah, that is part of allowing to shape you.
So, yeah, Visit the grief, Stayfor the weekend, but don't move
in.
I think I really really likekind of to visualise the things
in which we discuss and in mymind there you're saying you
know, let it shape you and notdefine you.
And in my mind I think about arock, like a rock on the beach,
(36:01):
and if that rock just stays inthat one place, the waves of
grief and depression and sadnessand all of that will hit you
and shape you.
But if you just continuestaying in there and you don't
move past it and you don't moveon, it'll erode.
That rock will erode and youyourself will erode.
So, yeah, super important tofeel it, allow the feelings in,
(36:24):
but don't live in it, Don't letit define you Literally, don't
let it just be your existence.
It's very much smile and thewhole world smiles with you, but
grieve and the whole worldcould potentially turn its back,
which is super scary.
The love and the community intimes of need and not being too
stubborn about it, not beinghardheaded and being like I can
deal with this on my own,Throwing yourself into life
(36:47):
admin, instead of actuallyconfronting those feelings of
grief and anger and sadness andgoing through those stages and
returning to those stages, justallowing yourself.
Kate (37:00):
Yeah, I was one of the other things I guess that helped
me early days.
It's a bit of a sad story butat our primary school there was
four families that lost a parentand, um, there's a beautiful
little memorial garden there.
But each of those otherfamilies reached out to me early
days to say you got this, it'sgoing to be okay.
(37:23):
And that group are still, youknow, sort of really like we
have it, we know like we reallyknow what it's like and I think
that having been through thatexperience gave them the
confidence to kind of reach intome.
And I think what I guess what Iwant to say to people is if
you've got someone and they'reexperiencing grief, I would take
(37:44):
the bet that they would ratheryou lean in sorry, another HR
word but they would rather hearfrom you.
Then you go oh, I don't reallyknow what to say, so and I don't
want to upset them then not bethere Like that.
Those people that actually,like two of the parents I didn't
even know you know one of themI knew quite well they kind of
also made it okay for me, likethey sort of if there is such a
(38:05):
thing as normalizing grief, likeit made me go all right.
Yeah, I can see these people.
They've got children, they'restill in primary school, they've
lost their partner, they'vebeen through this and they were
all there to kind of catch me onthe other side.
So I do think that's anothersort of pay it forward thing
that I feel, something that Iwill do in terms of people die,
unfortunately.
So you tend to know peoplewhere this has happened.
Carter (38:28):
It's like an intrinsic grief mentorship.
It's like they're passing thetorch and giving you permission
to grieve.
Kate (38:37):
Well, funnily enough, there's like a widow's, which is
such an awful word but it's.
I mean, it's how people findother widows on Google and stuff
.
But there's this widowedsupport group.
It's just been awesome and Isay to people you know,
occasionally I'll go and have awidowed lunch.
I'm like I know it sounds likereally shit and really boring,
but we're actually really greatpeople and it's actually just
good to be with people that have, you know, had had the same
(38:58):
experience.
You know, you can talk aboutall the shit that happens in
life, but that that I thinkpeople's, because death is such
a taboo subject generally.
I am making a general statement.
People's tendency is to not stepin and go.
Are you okay?
Um, or just be like, just bethere.
I had a girlfriend who just sathere for a couple of days and
just made cups of tea and didn,was just here and it was so
(39:21):
valuable, whereas there's a lotof people that are like God,
that's a bit awkward and theystep away from you and you
really.
Well, for me, and I would say,you know, in my widowed group,
common thing is, where are thesepeople, where is this community
?
And I was just so fortunatethat they were here for me,
because I wouldn't have askedfor it, and I don't think I
would be where I am today ifpeople hadn't have come around
(39:43):
and supported me and also, justlet me be, let me be that snotty
, miserable bitch that was, youknow, thinking this is it.
My life is going to be shit,and you know, and they were
there sort of chipping away andyou know, giving me respite when
I needed it, but being mycheerleaders as well.
So, yeah, I think I would say topeople if you're wondering if
(40:05):
you've got that friend that'slost someone close to them,
don't like they've got enoughloss.
You know, step in and just bethere.
You don't have to do anything,just be there and let them know
that you're there.
Carter (40:17):
Yeah, yeah, my best friend, his grandfather, passed
away.
I'd say like three years, fouryears, I want to say four years
ago, and he didn't ask me to goto the funeral.
I'd never met his grandfatherand I rocked up the morning of
the funeral to his house.
He's like what are you doing?
I'm going to the funeral.
He's like why?
I was like, why wouldn't I?
You are my like, you're mybrother.
(40:39):
We're family.
You have lost your grandfather.
I've lost my grandfather too.
We're family.
Like I'm here for you, youdon't need to talk about
anything Like I'm just here.
Like I'm just here, that's allyou need to know.
I'm just here Because he had amissus at the time who needed
(41:02):
some support, and that's justhow it is.
I think a lot of people whoback away because they're not
used to those types of feelingsor being able to express those
types of feelings, or even maybenot in a negative way, but
lacking empathy and perhapsinternalizing what you're
putting out, which is your griefand you crying.
They may receive that and feellike that's on them.
(41:23):
They might be trying to fix it.
They might be kind of trying tomake sense of it from a
personal place for them.
So I understand why some peoplestep away.
But the more we talk aboutthese things and the more we get
these types of conversationsout into the open across the
world, the more normalized ourshitty feelings are going to be,
(41:44):
and you know, people die everyday.
Kate (41:46):
One of the things that the kids have all expressed or said
to me is yeah, and it is true.
I think as an adult though, youkind of tend to be a bit more
like oh, you know stuff, you orwhatever.
But my kids have all hadmoments where, you know, people
have said things like actually,oli said to me once one of his
mates so he's the one that he'sinternalised most of it, so he's
(42:07):
at uni now and he said one ofhis mates that he went to school
with at his graduation he did aspeech and acknowledged his dad
and at the end of the night oneof his mates said to him oh, I
didn't realise that you'd lostyour dad.
I just thought he was a deadbeatand had taken off, went and
bought a pack of smokes, yes,but all of that because people
haven't seen you know, I guessthey haven't seen their father
(42:29):
that they carry this burden,that when people ask them about
like well, you know what's yourdad do, that they'll, like all
of them say I have this thingbefore I say he's passed away, I
go, oh my God, I'm going tohave to manage your shock and
your.
And all three of them have saidI had experienced, I lead with
(42:49):
it now where I just say topeople you know I'm widowed, or
I mean I'm thankful I'verepartnered.
I just try to get it out of theway because it can be awkward.
But it's something that thekids have said, that for them,
dealing with adults like otherkids will go be a bit more.
No, sorry, that's a bit shit,but whereas adults this really
odd response to it and then theyall find that they're carrying
(43:10):
the burden of that person'sshock or that person's
awkwardness.
But that has been a common weoften.
We often laugh about it atdinner where someone go, what
does he tattoo?
And they'll sometimes be a bityou know, a bit cheeky about it.
No, you're not much these days.
Carter (43:23):
or yeah, I always.
I always have this kind ofthought in the back of my mind
when, when my mum comes up inconversation and and um, that's
leading to me having to say,like my mum's passed away,
there's always this part of methat's just like oh, here comes
the physical response to provehow sad they are for me.
Acknowledgement (43:43):
Yeah.
Carter (43:43):
Like oh no, I'm so sorry , I'm so sorry.
And it's like it's really overthe top because they really need
to bring it home that it's anupsetting thing.
It's like yeah, I fucking knowmy mum's dead.
I would much rather and look,I'm not saying that it's bad
that people react that way,because death makes people do
weird things especially if it'syou know death of someone that
(44:05):
they don't really know about andhave no tie, but have an
emotional tie to you.
I'd much prefer them just belike oh, that's shit.
Kate (44:11):
Yeah, me too.
I actually, I actually, andlike when we're in the hospital,
when I say banned, I had somany of the doctors and nurses,
you know, coming up saying I'msorry.
And I said my Tim's sister, mysister-in-law, was with me at
the time I said you need to tellthem to stop saying sorry, like
I don't need to hear fuckingsorry, like I just don't need to
hear it.
(44:31):
And it is one of the things I'mvery, you know, for people
listening.
People would rather hear fromyou than not hear from you.
But I do.
It's something that I don't sayto people, so I will do what
you said, but I will say are youokay, can I help?
Or I'm here, or anything that'swhat really pissed me off.
Carter (44:48):
Yeah.
So I've tried really hard tostop saying sorry, because with
this podcast we do talk a littlebit of um, you know the deaths
of loved ones and whatnot.
So I have tried to stop sayingI'm sorry to hear that or I'm
sorry for your loss, and I havebegan implementing empathize
with your experience, becausesympathy is shit.
No one wants sympathy, no onewants you to feel sorry for them
(45:10):
.
But empathy is genuine and yeah, and that's that's them
genuinely being like I can putmy feet in your shoes and walk a
mile through shit and andthat's that's them genuinely
being like I can put my feet inyour shoes and walk a mile
through shit and and know whereyou're coming from.
But yeah, just anyone listening,and if there's anyone around
you that's going through somesort of grief, don't say I'm
sorry for your loss, becauseevery time it happens there's
(45:31):
there's kind of a devil andangel.
It's like part of me wants tobe like shut the fuck up.
Another part of me wants to belike shut the fuck up.
Another part of me wants to belike I appreciate that, because
you're awkward now and that'sfine, let's be awkward together.
And there's a part of me thatwants to just be a cheeky little
asshole and be like why'd youkill her?
Fucking cops are going to wantto have a word with you, friend.
Why are you sorry?
Why are you sorry that my mum'sdead?
Kate (45:52):
my mum's dead.
Yeah, I mean.
Yeah, it just feels likesomeone's just giving you a
greeting card.
Carter (45:57):
Yeah, it's a hallmark response yeah, it's 100% what it
is.
It's, yeah, odd.
Well, we'll move on from thegrief discussion, because it has
obviously taken up a majorityof the podcast, as well as
majority of our lives movingforward.
What does the landscape looklike now in terms of your family
dynamics?
(46:18):
You know you've got two of themin in in their 30s a 28 year
old, a 16 year old and a 14 yearold.
So tell me a little bit aboutyour day-to-day life.
What are the self-care tacticsthat you still implement to this
day, and how do you see yourfuture panning out?
Kate (46:33):
oh gosh, great question.
Well, you know I have a roughplan, but we all know that.
What's that expression?
God laughs at those that makeplans.
But look, we are okay.
So I did.
In terms of self-care, I alsorecognised my role that I had at
the time.
I just couldn't handle that.
So I left that and went to adifferent, just a different
(46:53):
environment and a different role.
But I've since changed again.
I feel like I've got some of mywork mojo back.
I love what I do and I'mworking for a great organisation
.
So I think you know.
So, from a career perspective,back on track there, kids are
all doing really well, so, soproud of all of them.
So my and I guess there's alittle heartache in this as well
(47:15):
I was thinking when you'retalking about your children and
your mum, but the oldest has helives in Austria.
So Tim's oldest son, dave, isin Austria and he's got two
children of his own now and thathas also been, I guess, a touch
of heartbreak for me, becausethey call, they refer to Tim.
It's funny, nan, nan.
They refer to Tim as Dad's Dadand they're just gorgeous little
(47:38):
replicas of you know I can seetheir dad-dad in all of them and
you know, I'm so fortunate thatDave and Jojo, they're still
part of our family and the fivekids have a very strong bond.
So there's also something thatthey have that I'm not part of,
which I love for them.
So Dave's doing something thatthey have that I'm not part of,
which I love for them.
So Dave's doing well.
(47:58):
Jordane's getting married to herpartner in December, so I'm
thrilled for her, and one of thethings that Tim was insistent
on from his hospital bed wasthat I deliver the vote for
marriage equality.
And so Jordane's marrying herpartner, emma, and I just feel
so privileged to be a part of apart of that and to represent
her dad.
So all of us are going.
(48:19):
She's in Perth, all of us aregoing for that, so that she's
great.
Ollie started uni.
He's really, you know, he'sleaps and bounds, I guess is,
you know, the 16 year old'sprobably the one that I, I just
he's.
He's in, he's in a good place,but he's.
I just need to feel like I justreally got to help navigate him
through those next couple offormative years.
Carter (48:38):
The vulnerable years.
Kate (48:39):
Yeah, yeah, but he knows what he wants to do.
He's got a job.
He's also someone wherever wego.
So, yeah, he's good.
But I have got my arms aroundhim not to say I haven't around
the others, but differently forhim.
And, yeah, my daughter's athriving, sensible young lady
(49:00):
that I'm very, very proud of.
And for me, I have met a lovelypartner who's very different to
Tim but has taught me that, youknow, your heart grows, so
there's room for both of them.
He's very supportive.
The kids love him.
We have a long-distancerelationship, so he's a police
officer and that works for me aswell.
(49:21):
Like having a long-distancerelationship is great.
But you know, future State thehouse that I'm in at the moment
Tim and I bought together but wecreated to be sort of a teenage
.
We were thinking about thekids' teenage years.
So for the time being, I'mhappy here.
But what's been really funnyfor me in the last, I would say,
(49:42):
six months is I was reallyattached to the house and now
I'm in a point where I go.
Actually, I think that I'mprobably ready to do something
different, but I'll see the kidsthrough school and, you know,
travel adventure.
I think, if anything, it's mademe appreciate, like next year I
will be the age that Tim waswhen he died.
So you know, for me there'skind of well gosh, I've probably
(50:03):
lived half of my life.
Anyway, how do I fill that cup,like that back end of it, to do
all of like the no regrets typestuff?
So you know, make sure that Iam, I'm looking after myself,
I've got my friends around me,I'm filling my own cup.
So, yeah, I think life is.
I'm so grateful for the time Ihad with Tim and you know, the
(50:25):
life ahead of me is not what Ithought it would be, but I'm
going to make the most of it.
Carter (50:29):
Yeah, awesome, awesome.
It's awesome to hear everyoneis going so well.
It's a testament to you and allof the work that you did.
It's a testament to thecommunity that rallied together
to help in your time of need andallowing you to be and allowing
you to grieve.
And my main takeaway in theentire conversation is the most
(50:52):
important things are to feel thegrief.
Allow yourself to feel thegrief and never stop giving the
little nods, never stop seeingthem in everyday things.
Kate (51:03):
Yeah, I think that's right .
Small moments, you know thosesmall moments, they matter and
sit in them and notice them.
Carter (51:12):
And just honouring them, honouring those little things.
I'll wrap it up with this, thelast thing about my mum.
She was really into tarot, soshe's got a pack of angel cards
that I pocketed before my sistercould, after she passed, and
when I am especially grievingand having a really, really hard
time, I'll pull them out.
And the last time I pulled themout was when my daughter and I
(51:35):
had a proper conversation aboutthe death of my mum.
It was a hard one and I pulledout the cards and my daughter
was like what are they?
And I was like this is mymummy's cards, and when I feel
like I need to talk to her andget some guidance from her, I
pull them out.
I'm the only person that hastouched them, apart from her,
since she passed, so they reallyare a part of her.
And I don't know if I do itcorrectly because I'm not a
(51:57):
tarot card reader, but I shufflethem and the three cards that
just like jump out or like fallthrough the deck are mum's
answers.
And the last time I did it, Ipulled out gardener.
Kate (52:08):
Yeah.
Carter (52:08):
I pulled out parent and I can't remember the third one,
but my wife was there and shewas like get fucked, it was just
completely perfect.
And I haven't touched themsince.
I haven't needed to, because itall summed I think it was death
, I think it was death parentand gardening.
So you know, my wife gives nodsto my mum every day by keeping
(52:29):
our garden alive.
It's something she'll pass onto our kids and that's something
that they will keep alive.
We've got a little ornamentfrom Nan Nan's garden that we
took with us.
That's in our front yard now.
It's a little butterfly andit's just all of those little
bits of symbolism and littlenods and stuff that just keeps
(52:49):
them alive.
Kate (52:50):
Yeah, yeah, if you take a moment to notice, you'll notice
it.
Yeah, they never leave us.
Carter (52:55):
Take the glasses off.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you'll noticeit.
Kate (52:57):
Yeah, they never leave us Take the glasses off.
Carter (52:58):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's it, kate.
Thank you so much for coming onand sharing your journey, and I
really, really appreciate it.
Kate (53:04):
Thank you for having me on .
Carter (53:05):
No worries, kate, you have a great day you too.
All right, bye, bye, bye.
We would like to acknowledge the traditional
custodians of this land.
We pay our respects to theElders past, present and
emerging, for they hold thememories, the traditions and the
culture of the Aboriginal andTorres Strait Islander people
across the nation.
Carter (00:18):
Warning this podcast contains explicit language and
discusses sensitive topicsrelated to mental health
childhood trauma, birth trauma,abuse, miscarriage and suicide.
Listener discretion is advised.
If you find these subjectsdistressing or triggering, we
recommend taking caution andconsidering whether to proceed
with listening.
If you or someone you know isstruggling, please reach out to
(00:40):
a mental health professional ora trusted individual for support
.
Your wellbeing is our priority.
Hello and welcome to TouchedOut a mental health podcast for
parents.
I'm your host, carter, andtoday we are speaking to Kate.
Kate shares her story ofbecoming a solo parent after the
sudden death of her husband.
She discusses the challenges ofgrief, dealing with mental
health and raising her children.
(01:01):
Kate emphasises the importanceof accepting help, taking care
of oneself and finding supportin the community.
She also talks about thedifferent ways her children have
processed their grief and theimportance of open communication
and understanding.
(01:58):
Okay, so today we have Kate.
Kate is from Romsey and she hasthree biological children and
two stepchildren, all in their30s.
Is that right?
That's correct, Sorry two intheir 30s.
You've got a 14 year old, a 16year old and a 28 year old.
Kate (02:15):
Yes, correct.
Carter (02:17):
I'm not reading too well this morning.
I've just yet as usual when Irecord I've finished up a 12
hour shift.
So welcome to the podcast.
Thank you very, very much forjoining me.
You were actually one of the,I'd say, first five people that
put through an application and,through no fault of your own, I
think, I lost your applicationand we lost contact for quite a
(02:39):
while.
So better late than never.
Kate (02:40):
No worries, yeah, no, I'm really happy to be here and I
guess just to be able to share astory is a fantastic
opportunity.
Carter (02:47):
So thanks for allowing it More than welcome, all right,
so I mean, your story is alittle bit of a rough trot, so I
guess everyone needs to buckleup and yeah, let's get it
started.
Tell me a little bit aboutyourself, a little bit about
your history.
Kate (03:01):
Yes, I would say so.
If we start with sort of Kate'shistory, I think I really had a
great run for a long time.
I would describe my life, asyou know, being lots of rainbows
and unicorns and largely youknow, I came from very
middle-class upbringing.
My dad was a firefighter, mymum was a homemaker, went to a
(03:22):
school here locally in MacedonRanges and then ventured out
into the world and explored andlearned and did lots of
wonderful things.
I met my husband in my 30s andI met him over in and we were
together for 17 years, marriedfor 15 years and we had three
children together.
So he had two children from aprior marriage.
(03:43):
We had three children together,so he had two children from a
prior marriage.
We had three children togetherand in September 2017, he took
the kids camping and when heleft he wasn't feeling
particularly well.
He had a bout of the flu.
Anyway, he got very, very sickwhile they were away and
contracted pneumonia and died.
So all of a sudden, thoserainbows and unicorns just
(04:05):
seemed like I was in acompletely different world and
it just happened so quickly.
So one week was waving goodbyeto them and handing him a
Panadol and the next week wassitting in an ICU unit and what
I really wanted to share as aresult of that story was a
couple of things.
So I think there was beingsuddenly a solo parent and in a
(04:28):
different world than the worldthat I knew previously, dealing
with grief, dealing with kidsand dealing with mental health.
So I guess all of that sort ofcollided in that sort of you
know, september and I thoughtyou know, the first.
Still to me, the first threemonths after Tim's death were a
bit of a blur, but I have, youknow, I definitely have moments
(04:48):
still where you just you knowgrief never leaves you.
There's always a part in yourheart for that person.
But I think what I wanted toshare was what were some of the
things that got me through thatperiod, that got the kids
through that period.
And if people are stilllistening at this point, I would
also say going on to have ahappy, healthy life and letting
these it may not be grief forsome people, but those things in
(05:11):
life that get you and take youand just tumble you over, that
you can go on and have a happyand fulfilling life.
Someone had said to me you know, let the grief shape you and
not define you, and I think thatthat has just been a beautiful
lesson for me and one that I'vetried to pass on to the kids.
Our three biological childrenwere very young at the time
(05:32):
eight, 10 and 12.
And Tim's other kids were bothin their twenties at the time.
So, and I can see how it hasshaped all of their lives and
you know it's a juggle as aparent when you're trying to
help them and deal with your ownloss as well.
So I thought I wrote a fewnotes to help me stay on track.
(05:54):
But there was a couple ofthings that really impacted me
during that time, and it wasn'treally till I came.
I don't think you're everreally out the other side, but
you know, until you actuallystart to process, that there
were things that happened aroundme that were just so helpful
and some things that I needed tochange.
So I'll start with one of thethings that I needed to change
was I'm not someone that asksfor help.
(06:16):
I have been fiercely independentmost of my life and my mom
tells me some great storiesabout, you know, when I was sort
of two and four and I'd say, nome, do it, me, do it.
And I think some of that's youknow carried through.
I was the breadwinner in ourhousehold and Tim was like the
wind beneath my wings, so he didall of the you know before and
after school things and kids,sport and all those other things
(06:36):
that keep parents really busy.
And I remember he said to meone point you know, I don't know
what you'd do without me.
And well, now I know what Iwould do.
But I remember thinking thesame thing.
We were a team and so when hepassed away and it was so sudden
, I had this big job.
I worked for one of the bigfour banks.
I had a very big job.
(06:56):
I had lots of people, lots ofdemands on me at work.
Tim had a business, he had aJim's Mowing franchise, so I
couldn't manage.
I'm not a gardener, and so youknow that was kind of, and I had
clients calling me and I hadthree kids, and so it was just.
It was a high stress time and Ijust had to ask for help.
And you know, one of the Ithink one of the biggest help
(07:20):
for me was community.
To this day, and this isactually part of the reason why
I said, hey, I'll do the podcastas well, because I want to pay
back for that beautifulexperience that I had.
So you know, for example, myfridge was constantly full of
food for three months but mypeople came and just took my
kids.
They took them to.
They didn't miss a cricketlesson.
They didn't like.
(07:40):
Routine went on for them isprobably better than saying life
went on on for them.
Obviously it was a hugeadjustment for them, but I found
it difficult to accept thathelp.
I'm not really sure why, but Ithink because it made me feel
like I wasn't on top of things.
But I'm so grateful for it andpeople still to this day.
You know I'll find that I needto be on a barbecue in
(08:02):
Lancefield and at a netball gamein Sunbury, and it just.
You know I can't be in twoplaces at once and I'm not a
single parent, I'm a solo parent.
It's just me.
I don't get weekends off wherethey go to my partner.
It's just me.
Carter (08:16):
There's a massive distinction between single and
solo.
Kate (08:20):
Yeah.
So I've really learnt to acceptthat help.
So that was lesson number one.
You know, accept help when it's.
And the second I would say waspeople.
I worked in the airline industryfor a long time and people said
to me you know, it's reallyimportant that you put your own
oxygen mask on first and, youknow, then look after the kids.
(08:40):
And this is one of the thingsthat I think, in reflection, I
didn't have.
I needed someone to put theoxygen mask on me.
I didn't have the strength, theenergy to put my own oxygen
mask on, which is again why I'mjust so grateful for the
community help that I got inthat time, because that was them
putting the oxygen mask on meand just making sure that some
(09:01):
of those basics were.
You know, we had meals on thetable, the kids were, you know,
socialising, they were at sportand those sorts of things.
So I think that was interestingto me because I felt like I
need to do this stuff for thekids, but I couldn't even look
after myself in terms of, youknow, just being overwhelmed
with grief.
So having other people put myoxygen mask on for me allowed me
(09:22):
to be there for the kids, whichwas really beautiful.
Carter (09:26):
Absolutely.
That's an amazing sense ofcommunity that a small country
town of Romsey can truly getbehind.
You probably wouldn't see thatlevel of community spirit and
rallying together in outersuburbs or inner suburbs of
Melbourne or big cities.
Kate (09:44):
Yeah, I often wonder that and I do see you know city folk,
friends of mine, but I do thinkyou know I'm far more connected
to community here and again, sograteful for that.
But a couple of things alsojust on.
Solo parenting was so, again,just take all the help that you
can.
I think that's really important.
But for me I found routine soand I think that was helpful for
(10:06):
the kids as well, and I stillhave it to this day.
I put a whiteboard in thekitchen which just had where
everyone was, what the mealswere that we're having, and it
takes me maybe I don't know halfan hour to 45 minutes each week
to just populate that.
But it was kind of like, afterlosing everything, just such a
small gesture of structure andpredictability in your life.
(10:28):
So that was a really, I guess,a small thing that I did.
That made a big difference.
Now that we're a little furtherdown the track, I just sort of
I'll point to the whiteboard ifthe kids will say, mom, and it's
like it's not on the whiteboard, it's not happening.
So it just helps us cometogether as a family and also
for us to see conflictingdiaries and what have you, when
we can work stuff out.
(10:48):
So that's been a really goodtip.
The other one was and this isobviously pre-COVID, but the
beauty of online shopping andactually having Coles of
Woolworths deliver yourgroceries.
So I was a bit sceptical of it,but it was an absolute life
changer for me in terms of timesavings.
I actually used to quite enjoywalking around the aisles, but I
(11:08):
didn't have that time afterimpasse.
So that was another one thatjust you know a small thing that
you can do that just gave meback some time and time's so
precious.
And then the other was to justfind time for yourself, right,
and be really kind to yourself.
Like it's okay if the kids havetoasted sandwiches for dinner
occasionally and you do or bakedbeans on toast.
Like, give yourself a chop outand find that time.
(11:31):
Whatever it is for you.
Sometimes for me it's walkingthe dogs.
I love to swim.
I generally love to swimbecause no one can talk to me
when I'm under the water.
But yeah, I think just what'sthat thing that you know gives
you a little bit of peace andjust takes you out of that
everyday moment, because it canbe relentless, and I actually
found that was really good formy mental health.
(11:53):
I think post and part of youknow what I've been working on
myself with various counsellorsand communities is like anxiety
for me.
So you know I still havemoments now that if the kids are
out they're pretty good attexting me, but I'll just think
the worst, the worst thingshappened.
So I think just having thoselittle chop out moments for
yourself where you break thatcycle of negative thought or is
(12:14):
really important and it's goingto be different things for
different people, but one for me, which is a larger chopper, is
swimming, because all I thinkabout is the lap that I'm doing.
And the other one my daughtertaught me, which is just
touching each of your fingers.
Peace starts with me and it'sjust a little circuit breaker.
That has been incrediblyhelpful technique for me.
(12:36):
If I start to worry, you knowyou bring those worries forward
from the future.
They haven't even happened yetand you've got enough on your
plate.
That's just been a lovelylittle circuit breaker for my
own mental health.
Carter (12:47):
Finger tapping is a very , very common stim for
sensory-seeking autistic people.
I myself and my wife areneurodiverse we're both on the
spectrum and I am a big fingertapper.
I find that if I don't utilizefinger tapping or have like
fidget jewelry I've got like afidget ring that I can spin my
stimming becomes destructive andI start like picking skin off
(13:08):
my fingers and all of a suddenI've got bloody fingertips.
So wow, so yeah, um.
So finger tapping is a massive,massive stim for a sensory seek
, yeah, so you know find yourthing yeah, find your.
Find what you love and let itconsume you.
Is that the saying?
Kate (13:26):
Yeah, I think so yeah.
Carter (13:27):
Yeah, something like that.
Awesome, I mean, you've thrownso much information at me, but
we'll take a few steps back.
We'll go back to onlineshopping.
Absolutely amazing.
Two of the three of my children, I don't think, have even seen
the inside of a Coles or aWoolworths.
I'm a 90s kid myself, so itwill always be Safeway to me and
(13:51):
no one can tell me different.
We do all our shopping onlinepretty much because we don't
really enjoy being in public.
It takes a lot out of us.
We're very much homebodies.
We rely on each other for allof our needs to be met.
So the fact that your husbandpassed suddenly and you were
(14:12):
just thrown into a completelynew life I won't say starting
over, because you know life'sobviously a spectrum, but it was
definitely a pause and a splitclip and then you were starting
an entirely new chapter Musthave been incredibly daunting.
So I am terribly, not terribly.
I am empathetic to your loss.
(14:32):
I can't even imagine how hardit must have been.
I lost my mother, so I knowgrief from the standpoint of a
son losing a parent.
But a couple of years ago mywife came home and she was like
I have some news to tell you.
I have put it off too long andlike I'm dreading it, but I
found a lump in my breast and mymom passed from breast cancer
(14:56):
and I just remember this.
Just this overwhelming dreadwashed over my entire existence
and I just completely broke downand I just thought, like this
fucking thing cannot take thesecond most important person in
my life after my mom.
And fuck, I was scared and itturned out okay, but just just
(15:18):
even being teased with thechance of losing a partner yeah
completely fucked me, yeah, so.
So for you to actually gothrough it and come out on the
other side, okay, is reallyreally inspiring, really
inspiring.
I didn't expect to get soemotional so early.
Acknowledgement (15:34):
It was a messy middle for a long time.
Carter (15:35):
Oh, I don't doubt it.
I don't doubt it, but you know,to see you here now, being able
to talk about it openly andfreely and allow yourself those
vulnerabilities and be able toclearly communicate your
self-care journey and smileabout these things is truly a
testament to all of that workthat you put in.
So I'm sure you've heard itfrom many people in your life
that are close to you, but justfrom a random internet stranger.
(15:57):
I'm proud of you, well done.
Acknowledgement (16:00):
Thank you.
Carter (16:02):
So I want to talk a little bit about your children
and how their grief presented.
You said that they were okaybecause the routine continued
and everything, but obviouslythere would have been a lot of
lows and a lot of highs, asgrief tends to cause.
Kate (16:19):
if you want to discuss that a little bit, so look, the
kids are all great kids, want todiscuss that a little bit.
So look, the kids are all greatkids.
But what I found reallyinteresting and I learned
through this is that griefimpacts everybody really
differently.
So one of the things in talkingabout communities the school
which actually I'm going to do ashout out for Assumption in
(16:41):
Kilmore, it's my wife's school.
So they had a counsellor herefor us the day after Tim passed
and she did a family counsellingsession and it was just
beautiful, like it was.
You know when I say beautiful,it felt like someone just gave
us a big, warm, squeezy hug andwe were all still obviously in,
but that just allowed us.
(17:03):
I think that early interventionjust allowed us.
I think that early interventionjust allowed us to kind of go
gosh, we've got a journey aheadof us here, we've got each other
.
This is terrible thing that'shappened, but there are people
that want to help us so it waslike I'm probably even putting
too much word, too many wordsaround it, but there was
something about that immediatehaving someone there was,
(17:24):
outside of the family, butbrought us together and just
allowed us to be vulnerable andtalk about our fears and, you
know, crying and all that sortof stuff was really helpful.
And then I also was fortunateenough that we had an employee
assistance program at work thatI tapped into as well, so we did
a session with them.
I didn't enjoy, I think you'vegot to find.
(17:44):
You've got to find your vibeand your person in these
circumstances as well.
And I didn't really connectwith the EAP counsellor but I
did get a referral to a localgrief counsellor and my oldest.
He just wouldn't do any of itand he was 13 at the time.
But this is where I think theschool were fantastic that they
had a school captain at the timewhich my son was.
(18:05):
I think the school werefantastic that they had a school
captain at the time which myson was school captain last year
, so he did do a great journeybut that really impacted him.
Ollie still talks to me about,you know, the school captain
coming and sort of he wouldn'tsay giving me a warm up, but
just talking to him and findingout what he needed at school.
Did he want people to know?
Did he not want people to know?
Plus, I think, a few of theteachers were there.
(18:27):
So Ollie found his own waythrough.
But he's very quite.
He internally processes thingsand, I would say, used his small
circle of friends and family ashis support group.
My middle son a character.
He's very emotional and I thinkfor his age at the time so he
(18:48):
was about 10, he was really goodat labelling his emotions,
which were no terrifying is notthe word but so upsetting for me
, like you just want to fix itand you can't fix it as a parent
, but you know his fear, hisloss, his grief, his sadness,
all of those things he wasreally good at labelling and he
(19:11):
also uses his friend group a lot.
But he really got into thegrief counselling and he came
out with little techniques thathe would share with me and I
really think that was sovaluable for him at the time.
He's now 16, is that correct?
Carter (19:28):
Is that the 16-year-old now?
Kate (19:29):
Yes, yeah.
So he, you know he went through.
I mean he does have anxiety andhe's been diagnosed with that,
but he knows that he's got itand he knows what his triggers
are.
But I'm so proud of him andeven now, like we went through,
we went through a bit of a roughpatch, even about 12 months ago
, where you know he gets it'sanxiety, but it'll be it's fear
(19:51):
of things and it's that realsense of loss and grief that
just comes back to him.
And you know it's so hard for ateenage boy to not have their
dad.
I think it's hard for everyoneto not have their dad.
But I think he and Tim werethey had a, they would sort of
take energy off each other.
(20:12):
And he's our little extrovertand you know he loves his sport
and all those sorts of things.
So I think I'm so proud of himfor he still, to this day will
say, actually I need to go andsee someone.
So he has got ongoing, you know, counselling and he uses that
when he needs to use it.
And you know, to have a16-year-old son that will say to
(20:33):
me Mum, I think his name isMatt too I need to go and have a
session with Matt is really,really awesome, but he does
worry me just in terms of he'sgot a big.
I can see that Tim's and thisis not a judgmental thing Tim's
left a big hole in his life andI just want him to fill that
with the right things, not thewrong things.
(20:53):
So that's, and he's a teenageboy, so I sort of go there is
this path that he needs to gothrough, but just really sort of
making sure that he's got goodinfluences around him, that we
have open dialogue All of thosesorts of things are really
important.
So he's probably the mostvisual with his grief and when
he's in a good place or not agood place, which is actually
really helpful for me as hisparent.
(21:15):
But at the same time, it'sreally terrifying because I can
see it with the other two.
I don't necessarily know.
They're far more internallywith how they process their,
their grief.
My daughter also went to griefcounseling and she um, you know
that was really good for her aswell, like that worked for her.
She still loved going toRosemary was her name.
She stopped going to seeRosemary.
(21:35):
I think that she felt that, um,I mean, now that she, she's
older, her reflection is thatshe didn't want to burden me.
So that makes me, you know, itmakes me love her, but it also
makes me sad.
But I'm happy that she had thatpath.
So I think for each of them it'sbeen very, very different
journeys, and how griefmanifests is, you know, it's
(21:57):
really interesting Like Olliewill like acknowledge something
like Father's Day, whereas theother two will just be.
It's just too much, it's toooverwhelming.
I just leave me alone on thatday and I have my own.
I have my own triggers andthings as well.
So I think what's been reallyimportant for us is to be able
to have those conversations atthe whether it's at the dinner
time table or it's in the cartogether about how we're feeling
(22:18):
or what we miss, and I'm reallyconscious of keeping Tim's
memory available to them.
So you know we go and visitTim's parents.
They live in Perth, you know Imake sure that they still have
strong connections with thatside of the family, which is
also helpful for them.
But again, community's been abig part in that.
Sport's been a very big part intheir mental health and
(22:41):
wellbeing, diet.
I mean, you know some of thosethings I think, well, if I can't
get in and help you with theanxiety and let you sit in it
for a while, which I think I'velearned is sometimes that's the
best way to do it.
Just make sure that I'm youknow they're not in a spiral.
But they need to express theirgrief, they need to feel it.
But when they are doing that, Ialso want to make sure that
(23:05):
they're sleeping, that they'vegot you know, that they've got a
bit of routine around them andnot everything's sort of
crumbling.
So, yeah, I think thatlistening to kids trying to have
a dialogue about what theirtriggers are, just so you're
aware, because sometimes I thinkyou need to go to those spaces
and that's what grief's aboutLike you've got to feel that
loss.
So it's not stopping them fromfeeling it, it's being there to
catch them on the other side ofit.
Carter (23:25):
Yeah, and being really in the moment just with kids.
In general, it's so easy tobrush what they're telling you
to the side because that's howit was.
Kate (23:36):
Oh, hello, can you?
Carter (23:37):
hear me now?
Oh, hello, can you hear me now?
Kate (23:40):
Yeah, I can.
Carter (23:41):
Yep, sorry, excuse me, it's so easy to brush a kid's
feelings to the side becausethat's how it was when I grew up
.
You know kids are to be seenand not heard.
So I still catch myself and mywife will catch me doing it when
my son, who's on the spectrum,or my daughter, who we suspect
is ADHD, is kind of in meltdownand they're completely
dysregulated and they're likethrowing hissy fits or they've
(24:03):
stubbed their toe or somethinglike that, and my immediate
reaction is to fix and not tolet them feel and I'll be like
you'll be okay, and I stopmyself and I'm like that's so
condescending and that's sodismissive of what they're
experiencing right now.
And how can I expect for them togrow up emotionally regulated
(24:24):
and emotionally intelligenthuman beings if their safe space
is already dismissing theirviews of the world?
So now I'm very much liketrying to be like are you okay?
Not, you'll be okay, are youokay?
What can I do for you right now?
If you don't know what I can dofor you, I'm happy just to sit
(24:44):
with you, feel your feels.
Pain is a real thing.
Just do what you need to do.
I'm here for hugs or kisses orwhatever you need.
Kate (24:51):
And you know what that just be with you Sometimes.
I found that heartbreaking andI'll just give you an example.
Remember, one night and it musthave, it would have been sort
of within the first six monthsand, um, all three of them came
into my bedroom and we just allsat on the bed and cried.
But there was something thatwas so beautiful about doing
that together and you know ourlittle snotty faces and red eyes
(25:16):
and but I am grateful that theyfeel that with me, that they
can be that vulnerable andlikewise I can be that
vulnerable with them.
So I do think, yeah, theoverwhelming need as a parent
and a provider to fix stuff.
It's hard to.
You know, I find my headbecause I'm in HR as well.
(25:37):
Right, so I'm about fixingproblems and problems with
people.
Find my head because I'm in hras well.
Carter (25:40):
Right, so I was all about.
Kate (25:40):
You are literally a fixer with people, yeah and to just be
and let it sit and sit in thepain and the uncomfortable
uncomfortable, but is, I guess,something else that I've learned
?
But it's just so strengtheningat the at the end of that, and
also, I think it's given themtheir own coping skills, rather
than me saying, hey, let's dothis, and kind of, yeah, as I,
as you said, just brushing itunder the carpet, just sitting
(26:01):
with it and being with it andletting it manifest is helpful.
Carter (26:06):
It's very helpful.
I don't know how we got to thisstage in society where talking
about those things isuncomfortable, is so
uncomfortable.
The entire spectrum of emotionis a natural human response to
outside or inside stimulus andevery all of its normal.
(26:26):
Sadness is normal, grief isnormal.
Missing someone that's nolonger there is completely
normal.
But for some reason we're justlike.
Kate (26:33):
This is fucking uncomfortable yeah, and and we
anger right, they the beingreally cranky and pissed off
that this awful thing hashappened to me.
And the other interesting uglyemotion that I felt a lot, and I
think the kids have as well, isjealousy.
So I mean and it is a yucky, Idon't like jealousy, but I
(26:55):
remember early, you know well, Istill do feel it now
occasionally, but I rememberearly days I went just down to
the IGA it must've been Easterweekend or something and I felt
like everywhere I looked, all Icould see was families, you know
, mom, dad, kids, and I was likethat is just so unjust and I
kept you all.
And you know it was just thisawful, awful feeling.
(27:16):
But yeah, it's, it's your lossand your grief, and the kids
will say the same thing.
You know there's so many thingsthat still happen today.
I mean, we've still got such along way to go with gender
diversity and family constructs.
But you know we're having aFather's Day this, we've got a
Mother's Day that, we've gotFather and Son nights or you
know, I think people talkspecial people now, but all of
those things were reallydifficult for us to kind of face
(27:39):
into.
And you know, no, dad's notcoming and you know, okay, we'll
have a like just having to asktheir uncles or whatever to be
their special person.
Just, it's all tough tonavigate and it's all.
Just all these little thingsare triggers and I think people,
unless you go through it and Irecognize my own ignorance until
I went through it as well andI'm sure that I offend people
(28:00):
every day with stuff that Ithink and the unconscious biases
that I carry around but I thinkkindness is something that
everyone can do.
That is extended to everysituation where people have got
their backstories.
So that's my other thing bekind and courageous.
Carter (28:14):
I mean be kind, just in general.
That's kind of my mantra withlife is be kind and have fun and
don't let your fun impact thefun of others.
We're all in it together.
We're all just monkeys sharinga giant space rock at the end of
the day, if you look at it inits most basic of terms,
(28:36):
Relatively young species when itcomes to the age of the
universe.
So I like how far we have comein emotional intelligence in the
past.
You know, decade or two decadesor however long you want to
kind of go with.
And then the introduction ofthe internet and the ability to
connect worldwide and createcommunities worldwide is both an
(28:56):
incredible and positive tool,but can equally be destructive
and negative and yucky.
But I think we're stepping inthe right direction and we're
getting there.
I did want to duck back totalking about being in public
and seeing people with theirfamilies and feeling those
feelings of hatred, and it's alltoo familiar for me.
(29:17):
It's just such a weird thingbecause you can never predict
how it will manifest and to thisday, you know, my mum passed
2015, December 2015.
And to this day I'm stillfinding new triggers that I
didn't know existed.
I'll watch my kids with my wife.
Kate (29:35):
Yeah.
Carter (29:36):
And I get fucking angry.
I still get angry, not at mywife, like I love the fact that
they are able to have thoseexperiences, but I get angry
that I don't get to have thoseexperiences with my mum anymore.
And my wife never got to meetmy mum and she grieves.
Mum passed almost three yearsbefore I met my wife.
Every Mother's Day, my wifewill cry with me because she was
(29:59):
robbed of having amother-in-law.
Acknowledgement (30:02):
Yeah.
Carter (30:03):
She was robbed of those experiences and my wife loves
gardening.
My mum was a gardener and, likeI always, we always talk about
just this perfect little likesummer day where mum comes over
and hangs out with hergrandchildren and hangs out with
her grandchildren.
My wife and her get out and dothis big working bee in the
backyard and the kids are allinvolved and they've all got
(30:24):
their little shovels and mum'sdrinking wine and my wife's
drinking beers and they're alljust sitting there hanging shit
on dad because he refuses to doany of the gardening as well.
She's fucking angry too.
She's like I don't get thatexperience and that sucks.
But yeah, it's horrible andit's a horrible thing that one
day we'll have to go through.
Kate (30:43):
Yeah, yeah, and I think that anger.
You know, if you think you knowpeople love to.
Also, when you lose someone,shove that bloody, tubular grief
curve underneath your nose.
But do you know what, like I go, yeah, I think two things.
I go.
Yes, you feel all of thoseemotions but it doesn't
necessarily work in that sort ofit's not something that you
(31:04):
come back and forth.
And, as you said, right, thosetriggers I can't remember what
it was, but I did have one theother day, completely out of the
blue.
I was like, oh wow, I'm feelingit they continue to come.
But I also think that griefI've tried to reframe this, that
grief, I've tried to reframethis that's my son would say
don't speak, HR, let's HR speak.
But to make it a positive thatI sort of go.
(31:27):
Grief is that reminder that Istill love him and I miss him,
which has also just been anotherhelpful sort of circuit breaker
in my own thinking, rather thanit doesn't mean I don't go
there, I go there a lot aboutlike, why did this freaking
happen to me?
But I do love being able toconnect that grief to the love
that we had and that I stillhave for him.
Yeah, and I encourage the kidsto do the same things.
(31:48):
Okay, that's those feels.
That's dad, that's rememberingand feeling that love that
you're still carrying for dad inyour heart.
It's nice.
Carter (31:58):
And the thing that people also don't understand or
don't really kind of equate togrief, is the positive feelings
as well.
You can have positive griefexperiences.
We are very, very active intalking about my mother with my
kids and, like, from a young age, my daughter.
I've got a photo just up hereon the wall of my mum.
We had never told my daughter,my oldest Hendrix, who that was,
(32:19):
and I've talked about this onthe podcast before, but I'll
tell you again anyway, one day,you know, she walked up to the
photo and she was looking at herand pointing at her and I said
who's that baby?
And she goes that's Nan Nan.
And I'd never told her anythingabout that photo.
I'd never told her that thatwas my mum.
Like we didn't even call hernan nan, she would.
(32:42):
She would have been um nana,yeah, um.
So that's nan nan and I saidokay, who's nan nan?
She said that's your mummy andI said how do you know my mummy?
And she said she comes andvisitors, visits me on my
birthday and it fucking gets meevery time.
But I'm not crying for sadnessbecause that's beautiful and
that's such a cool experiencethat I've had with my daughter
that I wouldn't have had if mumwas still here.
I mean, I'd always 100% preferher here, but it's still pretty
(33:07):
cool.
Kate (33:08):
You've opened up a whole other vibe to talk to.
But I feel Tim's presence a lot, and so do the kids, and you
know, there's some moments wherethat's just such a strength for
you guys both going now, such astrength for me and it might be
something like, you know, I canbe just be having the most shit
day and I'll walk in and see alittle white feather and I go.
(33:31):
You know, I got you honey.
I am doing this, I am doingthis on my own and, look, I have
lots of, I have lots ofconversations with Tim and it's
really important to me.
You know, I married him, I lovedhim, we had three kids together
and I think that conversationyou've just shared with your
daughter, I encourage the kidslikewise.
I love that.
(33:52):
It's so true, right?
There's so many happy momentsand so many beautiful memories
and we have lots of rituals.
I think these are another great, I guess, connector through
grief.
But we have a lot of greatrituals that Tim established in
our family.
He was a great adventurer, sowe have a little.
Whenever we go on holidays, we,you know hashtag nutbags on
tour or adventure adventure andthey're all little nods to him
(34:16):
and you know the legacy thathe's left.
Carter (34:19):
Yeah, and that's how they live on.
That's, you know that and andthat's beautiful, it's.
It's just, it's it's strange.
Uh, grief is strange.
It does weird things to thepeople and you know, the dark
humor can come along and you,one minute, you can find
yourself making reallyinappropriate jokes that people
that didn't know the person thatpassed away would be mortified
(34:41):
at.
But we're totally okay to makethe jokes because we're fucking
dealing with the grief and Ithink you know all of those
tools and tactics and ways inwhich we do grieve are all
leading to healing.
Kate (34:54):
Yeah, I agree, and that you know where we sort of
started with that.
So I think there's lots ofpeople who like to just put it
in a box and particularly death,people don't want to talk about
it.
But I think that I love that.
Let it shape you, not defineyou, like you know again,
because we do have a life aheadof us and I think you know,
particularly with our biologicalkids, or even actually Tim's
other kids, they've got fulllives to have ahead of them and
(35:15):
this shouldn't stop them frommoving ahead.
But of course, it's going toshape them.
They lost their dad when theywere young.
So I love allowing them to say,yeah, this is a part of your
life, but it doesn't need tostop you from being the best
person.
You're having the best lifethat you can have and it's also
okay to some some days to sit inthat grief.
It's that is part of allowingto shape you.
Carter (35:37):
So, yeah, that is part of allowing to shape you.
So, yeah, Visit the grief, Stayfor the weekend, but don't move
in.
I think I really really likekind of to visualise the things
in which we discuss and in mymind there you're saying you
know, let it shape you and notdefine you.
And in my mind I think about arock, like a rock on the beach,
(36:01):
and if that rock just stays inthat one place, the waves of
grief and depression and sadnessand all of that will hit you
and shape you.
But if you just continuestaying in there and you don't
move past it and you don't moveon, it'll erode.
That rock will erode and youyourself will erode.
So, yeah, super important tofeel it, allow the feelings in,
(36:24):
but don't live in it, Don't letit define you Literally, don't
let it just be your existence.
It's very much smile and thewhole world smiles with you, but
grieve and the whole worldcould potentially turn its back,
which is super scary.
The love and the community intimes of need and not being too
stubborn about it, not beinghardheaded and being like I can
deal with this on my own,Throwing yourself into life
(36:47):
admin, instead of actuallyconfronting those feelings of
grief and anger and sadness andgoing through those stages and
returning to those stages, justallowing yourself.
Kate (37:00):
Yeah, I was one of the other things I guess that helped
me early days.
It's a bit of a sad story butat our primary school there was
four families that lost a parentand, um, there's a beautiful
little memorial garden there.
But each of those otherfamilies reached out to me early
days to say you got this, it'sgoing to be okay.
(37:23):
And that group are still, youknow, sort of really like we
have it, we know like we reallyknow what it's like and I think
that having been through thatexperience gave them the
confidence to kind of reach intome.
And I think what I guess what Iwant to say to people is if
you've got someone and they'reexperiencing grief, I would take
(37:44):
the bet that they would ratheryou lean in sorry, another HR
word but they would rather hearfrom you.
Then you go oh, I don't reallyknow what to say, so and I don't
want to upset them then not bethere Like that.
Those people that actually,like two of the parents I didn't
even know you know one of themI knew quite well they kind of
also made it okay for me, likethey sort of if there is such a
(38:05):
thing as normalizing grief, likeit made me go all right.
Yeah, I can see these people.
They've got children, they'restill in primary school, they've
lost their partner, they'vebeen through this and they were
all there to kind of catch me onthe other side.
So I do think that's anothersort of pay it forward thing
that I feel, something that Iwill do in terms of people die,
unfortunately.
So you tend to know peoplewhere this has happened.
Carter (38:28):
It's like an intrinsic grief mentorship.
It's like they're passing thetorch and giving you permission
to grieve.
Kate (38:37):
Well, funnily enough, there's like a widow's, which is
such an awful word but it's.
I mean, it's how people findother widows on Google and stuff
.
But there's this widowedsupport group.
It's just been awesome and Isay to people you know,
occasionally I'll go and have awidowed lunch.
I'm like I know it sounds likereally shit and really boring,
but we're actually really greatpeople and it's actually just
good to be with people that have, you know, had had the same
(38:58):
experience.
You know, you can talk aboutall the shit that happens in
life, but that that I thinkpeople's, because death is such
a taboo subject generally.
I am making a general statement.
People's tendency is to not stepin and go.
Are you okay?
Um, or just be like, just bethere.
I had a girlfriend who just sathere for a couple of days and
just made cups of tea and didn,was just here and it was so
(39:21):
valuable, whereas there's a lotof people that are like God,
that's a bit awkward and theystep away from you and you
really.
Well, for me, and I would say,you know, in my widowed group,
common thing is, where are thesepeople, where is this community
?
And I was just so fortunatethat they were here for me,
because I wouldn't have askedfor it, and I don't think I
would be where I am today ifpeople hadn't have come around
(39:43):
and supported me and also, justlet me be, let me be that snotty
, miserable bitch that was, youknow, thinking this is it.
My life is going to be shit,and you know, and they were
there sort of chipping away andyou know, giving me respite when
I needed it, but being mycheerleaders as well.
So, yeah, I think I would say topeople if you're wondering if
(40:05):
you've got that friend that'slost someone close to them,
don't like they've got enoughloss.
You know, step in and just bethere.
You don't have to do anything,just be there and let them know
that you're there.
Carter (40:17):
Yeah, yeah, my best friend, his grandfather, passed
away.
I'd say like three years, fouryears, I want to say four years
ago, and he didn't ask me to goto the funeral.
I'd never met his grandfatherand I rocked up the morning of
the funeral to his house.
He's like what are you doing?
I'm going to the funeral.
He's like why?
I was like, why wouldn't I?
You are my like, you're mybrother.
(40:39):
We're family.
You have lost your grandfather.
I've lost my grandfather too.
We're family.
Like I'm here for you, youdon't need to talk about
anything Like I'm just here.
Like I'm just here, that's allyou need to know.
I'm just here Because he had amissus at the time who needed
(41:02):
some support, and that's justhow it is.
I think a lot of people whoback away because they're not
used to those types of feelingsor being able to express those
types of feelings, or even maybenot in a negative way, but
lacking empathy and perhapsinternalizing what you're
putting out, which is your griefand you crying.
They may receive that and feellike that's on them.
(41:23):
They might be trying to fix it.
They might be kind of trying tomake sense of it from a
personal place for them.
So I understand why some peoplestep away.
But the more we talk aboutthese things and the more we get
these types of conversationsout into the open across the
world, the more normalized ourshitty feelings are going to be,
(41:44):
and you know, people die everyday.
Kate (41:46):
One of the things that the kids have all expressed or said
to me is yeah, and it is true.
I think as an adult though, youkind of tend to be a bit more
like oh, you know stuff, you orwhatever.
But my kids have all hadmoments where, you know, people
have said things like actually,oli said to me once one of his
mates so he's the one that he'sinternalised most of it, so he's
(42:07):
at uni now and he said one ofhis mates that he went to school
with at his graduation he did aspeech and acknowledged his dad
and at the end of the night oneof his mates said to him oh, I
didn't realise that you'd lostyour dad.
I just thought he was a deadbeatand had taken off, went and
bought a pack of smokes, yes,but all of that because people
haven't seen you know, I guessthey haven't seen their father
(42:29):
that they carry this burden,that when people ask them about
like well, you know what's yourdad do, that they'll, like all
of them say I have this thingbefore I say he's passed away, I
go, oh my God, I'm going tohave to manage your shock and
your.
And all three of them have saidI had experienced, I lead with
(42:49):
it now where I just say topeople you know I'm widowed, or
I mean I'm thankful I'verepartnered.
I just try to get it out of theway because it can be awkward.
But it's something that thekids have said, that for them,
dealing with adults like otherkids will go be a bit more.
No, sorry, that's a bit shit,but whereas adults this really
odd response to it and then theyall find that they're carrying
(43:10):
the burden of that person'sshock or that person's
awkwardness.
But that has been a common weoften.
We often laugh about it atdinner where someone go, what
does he tattoo?
And they'll sometimes be a bityou know, a bit cheeky about it.
No, you're not much these days.
Carter (43:23):
or yeah, I always.
I always have this kind ofthought in the back of my mind
when, when my mum comes up inconversation and and um, that's
leading to me having to say,like my mum's passed away,
there's always this part of methat's just like oh, here comes
the physical response to provehow sad they are for me.
Acknowledgement (43:43):
Yeah.
Carter (43:43):
Like oh no, I'm so sorry , I'm so sorry.
And it's like it's really overthe top because they really need
to bring it home that it's anupsetting thing.
It's like yeah, I fucking knowmy mum's dead.
I would much rather and look,I'm not saying that it's bad
that people react that way,because death makes people do
weird things especially if it'syou know death of someone that
(44:05):
they don't really know about andhave no tie, but have an
emotional tie to you.
I'd much prefer them just belike oh, that's shit.
Kate (44:11):
Yeah, me too.
I actually, I actually, andlike when we're in the hospital,
when I say banned, I had somany of the doctors and nurses,
you know, coming up saying I'msorry.
And I said my Tim's sister, mysister-in-law, was with me at
the time I said you need to tellthem to stop saying sorry, like
I don't need to hear fuckingsorry, like I just don't need to
hear it.
(44:31):
And it is one of the things I'mvery, you know, for people
listening.
People would rather hear fromyou than not hear from you.
But I do.
It's something that I don't sayto people, so I will do what
you said, but I will say are youokay, can I help?
Or I'm here, or anything that'swhat really pissed me off.
Carter (44:48):
Yeah.
So I've tried really hard tostop saying sorry, because with
this podcast we do talk a littlebit of um, you know the deaths
of loved ones and whatnot.
So I have tried to stop sayingI'm sorry to hear that or I'm
sorry for your loss, and I havebegan implementing empathize
with your experience, becausesympathy is shit.
No one wants sympathy, no onewants you to feel sorry for them
(45:10):
.
But empathy is genuine and yeah, and that's that's them
genuinely being like I can putmy feet in your shoes and walk a
mile through shit and andthat's that's them genuinely
being like I can put my feet inyour shoes and walk a mile
through shit and and know whereyou're coming from.
But yeah, just anyone listening,and if there's anyone around
you that's going through somesort of grief, don't say I'm
sorry for your loss, becauseevery time it happens there's
(45:31):
there's kind of a devil andangel.
It's like part of me wants tobe like shut the fuck up.
Another part of me wants to belike shut the fuck up.
Another part of me wants to belike I appreciate that, because
you're awkward now and that'sfine, let's be awkward together.
And there's a part of me thatwants to just be a cheeky little
asshole and be like why'd youkill her?
Fucking cops are going to wantto have a word with you, friend.
Why are you sorry?
Why are you sorry that my mum'sdead?
Kate (45:52):
my mum's dead.
Yeah, I mean.
Yeah, it just feels likesomeone's just giving you a
greeting card.
Carter (45:57):
Yeah, it's a hallmark response yeah, it's 100% what it
is.
It's, yeah, odd.
Well, we'll move on from thegrief discussion, because it has
obviously taken up a majorityof the podcast, as well as
majority of our lives movingforward.
What does the landscape looklike now in terms of your family
dynamics?
(46:18):
You know you've got two of themin in in their 30s a 28 year
old, a 16 year old and a 14 yearold.
So tell me a little bit aboutyour day-to-day life.
What are the self-care tacticsthat you still implement to this
day, and how do you see yourfuture panning out?
Kate (46:33):
oh gosh, great question.
Well, you know I have a roughplan, but we all know that.
What's that expression?
God laughs at those that makeplans.
But look, we are okay.
So I did.
In terms of self-care, I alsorecognised my role that I had at
the time.
I just couldn't handle that.
So I left that and went to adifferent, just a different
(46:53):
environment and a different role.
But I've since changed again.
I feel like I've got some of mywork mojo back.
I love what I do and I'mworking for a great organisation
.
So I think you know.
So, from a career perspective,back on track there, kids are
all doing really well, so, soproud of all of them.
So my and I guess there's alittle heartache in this as well
(47:15):
I was thinking when you'retalking about your children and
your mum, but the oldest has helives in Austria.
So Tim's oldest son, dave, isin Austria and he's got two
children of his own now and thathas also been, I guess, a touch
of heartbreak for me, becausethey call, they refer to Tim.
It's funny, nan, nan.
They refer to Tim as Dad's Dadand they're just gorgeous little
(47:38):
replicas of you know I can seetheir dad-dad in all of them and
you know, I'm so fortunate thatDave and Jojo, they're still
part of our family and the fivekids have a very strong bond.
So there's also something thatthey have that I'm not part of,
which I love for them.
So Dave's doing something thatthey have that I'm not part of,
which I love for them.
So Dave's doing well.
(47:58):
Jordane's getting married to herpartner in December, so I'm
thrilled for her, and one of thethings that Tim was insistent
on from his hospital bed wasthat I deliver the vote for
marriage equality.
And so Jordane's marrying herpartner, emma, and I just feel
so privileged to be a part of apart of that and to represent
her dad.
So all of us are going.
(48:19):
She's in Perth, all of us aregoing for that, so that she's
great.
Ollie started uni.
He's really, you know, he'sleaps and bounds, I guess is,
you know, the 16 year old'sprobably the one that I, I just
he's.
He's in, he's in a good place,but he's.
I just need to feel like I justreally got to help navigate him
through those next couple offormative years.
Carter (48:38):
The vulnerable years.
Kate (48:39):
Yeah, yeah, but he knows what he wants to do.
He's got a job.
He's also someone wherever wego.
So, yeah, he's good.
But I have got my arms aroundhim not to say I haven't around
the others, but differently forhim.
And, yeah, my daughter's athriving, sensible young lady
(49:00):
that I'm very, very proud of.
And for me, I have met a lovelypartner who's very different to
Tim but has taught me that, youknow, your heart grows, so
there's room for both of them.
He's very supportive.
The kids love him.
We have a long-distancerelationship, so he's a police
officer and that works for me aswell.
(49:21):
Like having a long-distancerelationship is great.
But you know, future State thehouse that I'm in at the moment
Tim and I bought together but wecreated to be sort of a teenage
.
We were thinking about thekids' teenage years.
So for the time being, I'mhappy here.
But what's been really funnyfor me in the last, I would say,
(49:42):
six months is I was reallyattached to the house and now
I'm in a point where I go.
Actually, I think that I'mprobably ready to do something
different, but I'll see the kidsthrough school and, you know,
travel adventure.
I think, if anything, it's mademe appreciate, like next year I
will be the age that Tim waswhen he died.
So you know, for me there'skind of well gosh, I've probably
(50:03):
lived half of my life.
Anyway, how do I fill that cup,like that back end of it, to do
all of like the no regrets typestuff?
So you know, make sure that Iam, I'm looking after myself,
I've got my friends around me,I'm filling my own cup.
So, yeah, I think life is.
I'm so grateful for the time Ihad with Tim and you know, the
(50:25):
life ahead of me is not what Ithought it would be, but I'm
going to make the most of it.
Carter (50:29):
Yeah, awesome, awesome.
It's awesome to hear everyoneis going so well.
It's a testament to you and allof the work that you did.
It's a testament to thecommunity that rallied together
to help in your time of need andallowing you to be and allowing
you to grieve.
And my main takeaway in theentire conversation is the most
(50:52):
important things are to feel thegrief.
Allow yourself to feel thegrief and never stop giving the
little nods, never stop seeingthem in everyday things.
Kate (51:03):
Yeah, I think that's right .
Small moments, you know thosesmall moments, they matter and
sit in them and notice them.
Carter (51:12):
And just honouring them, honouring those little things.
I'll wrap it up with this, thelast thing about my mum.
She was really into tarot, soshe's got a pack of angel cards
that I pocketed before my sistercould, after she passed, and
when I am especially grievingand having a really, really hard
time, I'll pull them out.
And the last time I pulled themout was when my daughter and I
(51:35):
had a proper conversation aboutthe death of my mum.
It was a hard one and I pulledout the cards and my daughter
was like what are they?
And I was like this is mymummy's cards, and when I feel
like I need to talk to her andget some guidance from her, I
pull them out.
I'm the only person that hastouched them, apart from her,
since she passed, so they reallyare a part of her.
And I don't know if I do itcorrectly because I'm not a
(51:57):
tarot card reader, but I shufflethem and the three cards that
just like jump out or like fallthrough the deck are mum's
answers.
And the last time I did it, Ipulled out gardener.
Kate (52:08):
Yeah.
Carter (52:08):
I pulled out parent and I can't remember the third one,
but my wife was there and shewas like get fucked, it was just
completely perfect.
And I haven't touched themsince.
I haven't needed to, because itall summed I think it was death
, I think it was death parentand gardening.
So you know, my wife gives nodsto my mum every day by keeping
(52:29):
our garden alive.
It's something she'll pass onto our kids and that's something
that they will keep alive.
We've got a little ornamentfrom Nan Nan's garden that we
took with us.
That's in our front yard now.
It's a little butterfly andit's just all of those little
bits of symbolism and littlenods and stuff that just keeps
(52:49):
them alive.
Kate (52:50):
Yeah, yeah, if you take a moment to notice, you'll notice
it.
Yeah, they never leave us.
Carter (52:55):
Take the glasses off.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you'll noticeit.
Kate (52:57):
Yeah, they never leave us Take the glasses off.
Carter (52:58):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's it, kate.
Thank you so much for coming onand sharing your journey, and I
really, really appreciate it.
Kate (53:04):
Thank you for having me on .
Carter (53:05):
No worries, kate, you have a great day you too.
All right, bye, bye, bye.
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