Welcome to Episode 31 of Touched Out! A Mental Health Podcast for Parents
Purchase Ben's Chart Topping Single "Listen Now" on Bandcamp.
50% of all sales donated to suicide prevention: BandCamp
Join us as we chat with Ben Drysdale, an award-winning singer-songwriter, who opens up about his experiences with ADHD, mental health, and the challenges of parenting. Ben shares his journey in the mental health and art space, and the inspiration behind his latest music.
Navigating Parenting with ADHD and Mental Health Challenges
Ben discusses the difficulties of regulating emotions while being a parent with ADHD. He addresses the pressure to conform to the ideals of gentle parenting and the guilt that can arise from not meeting those expectations.
The Power of Art in Mental Health Advocacy
We explore Ben's work in creating plays and theater-based workplace training to address social issues. He emphasizes the cathartic power of art and its role in promoting inclusivity and accessibility.
Authenticity in Music and Social Media
Ben shares the inspiration behind his new single "Listen Now" and talks about the importance of being authentic. He discusses how music and social media can connect people and foster understanding.
Breaking the Stigma Surrounding Mental Health
The conversation highlights the impact of trauma on individuals and the importance of breaking down mental health stigma. Ben encourages open dialogue and checking in on others, advocating for a supportive and understanding community.
Key Takeaways
- Parenting with ADHD and mental health challenges can be tough, and managing emotions is critical.
- Unrealistic parenting standards on social media can lead to feelings of guilt and inadequacy.
- Art, especially theater, can be a powerful medium for addressing social issues and offering emotional release.
- Authenticity is crucial in connecting with others through music and social media.
- Addressing trauma and breaking down mental health stigma are essential for creating a supportive community.
Join the Conversation
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Theme music written and performed by Ben Drysdale ©2025:
Speaker 3 (01:26):
after the Touchdown
Podcast.
Take all night, you'll be fine,it's alright.
(01:57):
The Touchdown Podcast.
Carter (02:01):
Hey, so today we have a
very special guest.
We have Ben very special guest.
We have Ben Drysdale.
He's an award-winningsinger-songwriter from Canberra.
His new single, listen Nowdebuted at number two on the
100% independent single chartsand number nine on the
independent label charts.
Welcome, ben.
Thank you so much for joiningme today.
Ben (02:21):
No worries, man, it's nice
to finally meet you face to face
instead of just tick tockingback and forth.
Carter (02:27):
Yeah, yeah, definitely
yeah.
We've been following each otherfor a hot minute now, so I
really really enjoyed seeing thejourney from when I started
following you to now with yournew single, which I'm absolutely
in love with.
I think it's such just abeautiful, beautiful song.
Thanks so much, man.
Thank you, You're more thanwelcome.
So why don't we start off byyou telling us a little bit
(02:49):
about your family and a littlebit about your history?
Ben (02:52):
So my family is currently
the Nucleus family is currently
three, about to become four.
My wife and I have beentogether either 12 years or 12
and a half years, depending onwhich of us you ask as to when
the relationship started.
We got married in 2016 and,yeah, had our first boy in 2021.
(03:16):
My wife had kind of like wasfeeling a bit down about there
was all these things in her lifethat she wanted to achieve and
we were thinking about having akid and she was like, right, so
she picked one and we decided togo on a trip around Australia
and she was like such a mad gunin terms of getting that all
organized.
We were sort of like, okay, well, if we come back with a road
(03:38):
baby, then that's all good,because we've done this trip,
we've got out there and, youknow, experienced it all.
And we found out that we werepregnant in Exmouth, wa, which
sort of right to left across thecountry is about as far away as
you can be from Canberra, andlike, even though it's sort of
like not exactly planned it, butwe were no longer being careful
(03:58):
or anything, it still kind offreaked us out a little bit and
thought we thought we might geta bit through more of the trip
than we did and it was a bit ofa journey, yeah, trying to deal
with all of those initialappointments and scans and stuff
when you're moving from town totown.
You know, every other day, everyother week we we tried to get
one of those nipt is that whatit called nipt, scan things
(04:22):
where they sort of test forcertain abnormalities or
whatever, and you find out aboutthe gender and it didn't work.
Something you pay $600 for orsomething and it didn't work.
And we got it done in Darwinand they're like oh, can you
come back?
We're in Alice Springs now.
We can't just turn around andcome back.
Probably not.
So, yeah, some stuff like thatwas a bit of a journey.
(04:44):
Yeah, so we've got atwo-and-a-half-year-old boy,
jovi Cove Drysdale, not namedafter Bon Jovi not that that
would be a bad thing and yeah,we've got another one dropping
in 26 days or something likethat.
Carter (05:04):
How are you feeling
about that?
Ben (05:06):
Oh look, I am that amazing
combination of excited and
terrified.
The wee man is two and a halfand he's living his best two and
a half year old life, so thatcomes with a number of
challenges.
And, yeah, I guess the otherside of the story that's
relevant to this podcast and allit discusses is that about
(05:30):
about nine, nine months intohaving had jovi, I was starting
to really not cope.
There's like lots of highpressure stuff happening with
work and, yeah, like I've alwaysexperienced, you know, bouts of
anxiety and depression over mylife, but was always that kind
(05:52):
of like.
You know, I knew people whowere clinically diagnosed with
one or the other and I'm like,well, I'm not that depressed or
I'm not that anxious, so thismust just be the normal level of
anxious, which I think I'veheard you talk about with other
people on the podcast before.
It's like, no, the normal levelis none.
And yeah, I'd been on TikTok fora little while and, you know,
(06:12):
watched one or two ADHD videosand when you do that, they show
you more and more and more and Istarted wondering about it.
I actually thought about itabout 10 years ago when a
colleague of mine was gettingdiagnosed while her 14 year old
son was getting diagnosed andwe'd always seemed like people
who were.
We saw each other as verysimilar personalities and we
(06:33):
thought it was perhaps more thanjust the fact that we're both
aquarians.
And I just decided not to doanything about it at the time
because I was like I was tryingto get off the some bad habits
that I've been on and wasworried that I was just trying
to find a way to replace thosehabits and so, anyway, then,
yeah, towards the end of 2020I'm losing track of years now I
mean towards the end of 2022.
(06:54):
Yeah, it all like I was havingall these like really difficult
times at work and my colleague,who I run this theater company
with, had been talking to hisboth his current partner and his
ex-wife, who were both adultdiagnosed ADHDers, and he was
talking about like how he wasfinding it really hard to manage
(07:15):
the way that I was not copingwith things and they each kind
of like asked him a questionhere or there and they're like
he just he just sounds like he'sgot ADHD.
And he came and told me thatand I was like right, between
that, all the tiktok stuff andthe fact that I was thinking
about this 10 years ago.
It's probably time to make amove and and do something about
that.
So I finally I started thatprocess towards the beginning of
(07:38):
last year and you know it's abit of a process.
I finally got diagnosed, Ithink maybe about May, and then
finally got medicated in June,end of June, and so, yeah, the
whole.
I guess my point to that is thatthe whole learning how to be a
parent journey has also comealongside and, I'm quite sure,
(08:02):
instigated the shift fromsomeone who was able to manage
and mask their neurodivergencethroughout their life to like,
okay, now I can't do it anymore,like between the pressures of
parenting and the pressures ofwork, and it just bubbled over
(08:23):
the edge, and the more I talk topeople about it, the more I
look into it, like I think thatis a really big thing.
That I mean yourself, you, yougot your diagnosis after.
Well, you managed to cram acouple in before you got yours,
didn't you?
Carter (08:40):
yeah, it wasn't till
back number three, where I was
well and truly just yeah, justspent well, one's, one's a
handful mate.
Ben (08:48):
So for you to make it to
three before you tipped over the
, tipped over the edge, thenwell done to you, yeah we're
really lucky with our first two.
Carter (08:57):
They were great sleepers
.
From six weeks old they bothslept through like 12 hour
nights, seven till seven, yeah.
And so, like, apart from all ofthe other stuff, you know, I
was diagnosed with part ofdepression after the first two,
so I just kind of chalked it upto that.
But after baby three and thefirst two lulling us into a
(09:19):
false sense of security withtheir sleep routines, just
fucking did not want a bar ofany of that.
All of a sudden, you know, Iwas having those same old
depression feelings, but likewith a little extra spice, you
know, because I'll extra spice,no sleep, like just, yeah, I
just became such a shell and Iwas like, yeah, I didn't know
(09:41):
what was going on.
And then, much like you, yeah,I didn't know what was going on.
And then, much like you, yeah,the TikTok videos and you know
my son's diagnosis on top ofthat, and then my wife kind of
noticing a lot of the samemarkers in me led to my ADHD and
autism diagnosis as well.
Ben (09:55):
Yeah, I'm wondering whether
my ADHD might have a missing
you in it somewhere.
I reckon you might.
I might have a bit of the extratism spice.
I've had a few people oneperson who's like ADHD as all
get out and they were sort oflike, you know, just talking at
(10:17):
me 100 miles an hour and I wasjust reacting to them in this
like it was kind of triggeringme.
Their ADHD was triggering myADHD and they were like I think
you've got autism too and I'mlike maybe.
And then I follow a couple ofother people specifically
talking about autism on TikTokand yeah, I'm like looking at a
(10:37):
lot of their things too andgoing, hmm, okay.
I'm just trying to manage onething at a time, but we'll see
how this next baby might kick inthe for further investigation.
Carter (10:48):
It might yeah, yeah,
it's, it's.
I feel like if I didn't havethree kids I probably would have
stopped at the at the adhddiagnosis.
But yeah, like once I gotmedicated, my journey itself was
once I became medicated for my.
ADHD and that leveled out theADHD a little bit.
Autism traits just startedpopping up like no tomorrow.
(11:10):
Then my kind of unmasking wasthis inadvertent event in itself
where I just had a full-blownautistic meltdown.
I was like I don't know who thefuck I am, I don't know what I
like, I don't know anythingabout myself.
It was scary.
It was like I don't know whothe fuck I am, I don't know what
I like, I don't know anythingabout myself.
And it was scary.
It was hard, man, and I'mtrying to pick up those pieces.
(11:31):
And I still have days where Iget angry and feel sad at not
having that diagnosis earlier inlife and I have days where I
wish I could put, put pandoraback in the box and go back to
before I was diagnosed and justlive my little.
(11:51):
You know, ignorant ignorance isbliss.
Unmarked life.
Ben (11:56):
You know, it is what it is
yeah, and I mean like everybody,
like everybody has a differentkind of reaction and response to
diagnosis.
But I think one thing thatsurprised me about it is the
different phases of it.
Like for me at first it wasjust this relief thing, this way
(12:17):
to understand myself in a waythat I could relate to.
I could see this list of thingsthat explained all the things I
didn't like about the way Ihave felt or the way I've acted
in the past, and it's just likethat's where it all came from
and there was this huge sense ofrelief.
(12:38):
I've worked in the mental healthsector through arts for a
really long time and so I guess,like some people get an instant
sense of shame, whereas I'vesort of spent a lot of time
working with people to celebratetheir journeys and, you know,
celebrate the learnings thatthey've had out of them.
So I didn't.
I never sort of had that kind oflike diagnosis shame thing that
(13:00):
I know that some people get.
But like, once the kind ofhoneymoon period of the relief
wore off, and then there'sthere's like all this other
stuff to unpack.
That's like like oh, okay.
So you know, at first it's likeit's exciting that you can sort
of look for ways to ask foraccessibility for these things
that you've never known youneeded all your life.
(13:21):
And but then there's all thisother stuff where learning more
things about traits of ADHD likerejection, sensitive dysphoria
which is just like this horribleshit show inside your brain
where you are assuming the worstof like what people think about
you, or assuming how they feelabout you, and holding them to
(13:43):
account for these things thatyou've invented in your head and
you're like, oh, this is some.
You know, I've spent my wholelife feeling like those feelings
were justified and now I knowthey're not, or now I know that
this is some of my bullshit thatI've got to work through
instead of being able to justlay the blame to everybody else.
Carter (14:04):
Yeah, definitely.
Yeah, that rejection-sensitivedysphoria is a fucking mean
creature, isn't it why, you know, I kind of have spent my whole
life just like inself-deprecation mode, like just
not liking the person that I am.
So when something happens,that's a completely different
(14:26):
thing from the other person'sperspective, but I will perceive
that as some form of rejection.
It just fuels that fire ofself-hatred and it's like I just
proved to myself that I wasright all along, that I am a
piece of it.
It's not worth being loved.
It sucks, it really sucks, andit's a really hard habit to
(14:47):
break yeah, yeah, 100%.
Ben (14:49):
I feel like throughout my
life I've lived both sides of
that spectrum of likeself-deprecation counterbalanced
with overconfidence, that Ijust fluctuate between depending
on what sort of a day I'mhaving, depending on whether
it's a yeah, I don't know anADHD excited day or a depressed
(15:10):
day or whatever.
So, yeah, I guess there's likeI think that was something that
sort of came to the fore alittle bit like in in my
relationship, where my wife issort of just trying to like
manage, manage my roller coasterof being this like near
breakdown person and trying tosupport me to like, oh yeah,
I've got this diagnosis, great.
(15:31):
And then me being like, oh,learning all this stuff and
trying to process what I think Ineed or what I think the next
steps are, and then notrealizing that I'm like
responding to her in some waythat's just obviously just RSD
and like realizing okay, yeahthere's still a lot of work to
(15:54):
do here.
Like, the medication is not amagic bullet.
It helps you filter and processthose impulses sometimes, but
yeah, it's still that RSD demoncan just like sneak in there at
any minute.
And yeah, I think, as well asall that sort of once the
honeymoon period's over, there'sother stuff.
(16:17):
It's like the grief that Ithink you sort of touched on
before, the grief of a life thatI could have had if I knew
about this earlier.
And I mean, like you know, I'mvery proud of the things that
I've done In life.
I sometimes wish that my bankbalance reflected the work I put
(16:39):
in better and you know, maybeit might have if I had yeah, if
I'd had the kind of focus I canhave now.
Carter (16:49):
Or just even like what I
.
What I agree or what I getangry about is is if I was
diagnosed earlier like you, youknow, before I was 10 or even as
a teenager, I would have hadthe ability to set in motion
like healthy coping mechanismsand honing skills that would be
(17:10):
suited for such a diagnosis,instead you being diagnosed with
something like that at 35, whenI'm already pretty bloody set
in my ways.
As far as developing habitsgoes, it's hard able to be
different or like I will.
You know things like cleaningthe house and keeping up with
(17:40):
chores, because we three placesa fucking bombsite as daily
cleaning, you know, and I'llhave a week where I am on top of
every house hasn't so spotlessin so long, you know.
And then, just like that, it'sgone and I am just back to like
couch melting and doom scrollingand not doing anything, while I
(18:01):
sit there and shame myself forit.
And I'm having one of those daystoday Like I had so many plans
for today, but like yesterdayand today, man, yesterday I woke
up and I was like I don't wantto do this fucking podcast
anymore.
I'm fucking sick of it.
I'm sick of like, who's's thisfor?
Is it for me or is it foreveryone else?
I like, I feel like I'mspending my life like putting my
(18:22):
time and effort into helpingother people when I can't help
myself, and that makes me feellike shit.
Ben (18:28):
So it's, it's hard man,
it's hard work, yeah I've had
some of those feelings, you know, around this song as well, like
which you know.
I'm sure we'll get to that abit later.
But, like you put all of thistime and effort and blood and
sweat and tears in while there'swhile there's some great
responses, like you know, thisnew news of being on on these
(18:50):
charts and stuff it's it's hardlike I guess I had envisaged
that, like within the first weekI'd be like making some massive
donation to some charity, butwhile there's been like, yeah,
there's just this sort of.
I think a lot of people arekind of closed off and cautious
around open dialogue, aroundmental health stuff.
(19:13):
Still.
And I will firstly, like youknow, I'll say to you I've said
it to you already but, like,after following you on TikTok
for a year and then only finallylistening to your podcast a few
weeks ago, are you doing it?
You're doing it, for I knowyou're doing it for you, but
you're doing it for people likeme who are sick of like they're
(19:33):
not being open dialogue aboutthis hardship and there needs to
be more people doing it.
And I'm, like I was, I've beensort of trying to like get a
handle on the tiktok thing and,through that process, trying to
think more about, like, who I amand why I do what I do.
And you know, now huge parts ofthat are parenting, mental
health awareness, adhd and I waslike, oh, maybe I'll start a
(19:55):
podcast about that.
And I listened to yours.
I like he's already done it,but you know, maybe we all need,
maybe there needs to be ahundred podcasts about this,
because you know, like I get somuch out of listening to this
podcast and I'm absolutelypumped that you feel like I'm a
worthy candidate to talk to onit.
So thanks for having me andthanks for doing what you do,
(20:16):
man.
Carter (20:24):
No, I appreciate that so
much I really do, and it's not
a matter of worthiness oranything like that.
The whole point of this podcastwas real, real voices, real
stories.
So it doesn't matter who thefuck you are, it doesn't matter
that you're a musician that'scurrently in in the charts.
You know, you're a parent,you've, you've got a story to
tell.
You can be on the podcast, youknow.
So the messages that I get,like you know, I always wanted
to go on a podcast and you knowI've got like this cool story to
(20:46):
tell.
But like you wouldn't want tohave me on, I'm like, why
wouldn't I want to have you on?
I'm a nobody too, and we canjust be nobodies together and
then all nobodies love it canlook into it and be like, hey,
that really helps me feel lessalone and it's those kind of
little reminders that reallyreinforces the reason that I am
(21:07):
doing it.
Yeah, there are just some dayswhere I'm like, fuck, I wish I
could help myself the way thatother people tell me that I help
them with this podcast andthat's it.
Ben (21:16):
Hey, like you know, I've,
I've, I've done work in music
and theater and visual art stuffaround mental health for ages
and I can I can give greatadvice to people who are
struggling.
But it's much harder to takethat advice yourself.
Or, you know, try and quell thevoices in the way that you try
(21:38):
and get other people to do it,when, when you're inside your
own freaking head yeah,definitely.
Carter (21:44):
So we'll excuse me.
We'll move past our little pityparty.
I want to talk a little bitabout the changes that you you
felt were challenging whentransitioning from just a
partner slash husband travelingaround Australia to parenthood.
So you did put down in yourform that you wanted to discuss
the challenges in regulatingemotions when responsible for a
(22:06):
tiny human.
Ben (22:07):
Yeah, I mean, like many
ADHDers, when I'm not doing well
, I can be very quick to fire.
You know, quick, quick to fire,I'm not.
I feel like I've got the wrongmetaphor there, but you know,
it's the.
The stress and frustration canjust rise like that out of
(22:30):
nowhere to things that otherpeople can just handle very
easily.
And obviously, when you'reresponsible for the physical and
emotional safety of a tinyhuman being who has no emotional
regulation themselves, I don't,I don't even really know what I
have to say about this, otherthan it's hard and it's
challenging.
And I, you know, I've heard youtalk about the gentle parenting,
(22:54):
talk slash gram that you know,where everybody's just showing
how easy it is to, you know,calmly whisper your child out of
a screaming, raging tantrum,because you whisper in their ear
that they're loved andsupported.
And it's like, well, yeah, trythat it didn't work.
(23:15):
And now I don't feel loved andsupported.
And you know how am I supposedto manage this?
And then the shame comes andthe guilt comes Like, oh well,
if they can all do it, why can'tI do it in this cool, calm,
collected way?
And one thing I love about thispodcast is that you know, you
normalize the fact that it's notall freaking roses and it's not
(23:39):
all easy and it's hard foranyone.
It's especially hard for peoplewho have their own
neurodivergence, mental healthchallenges, especially if
they're sort of only recentlydiagnosed and trying to figure
out where they sit in it all aswell.
Carter (23:56):
Yeah, definitely figure
out where they sit in it all as
well.
yeah, definitely the thing with,with, with the gentle parenting
talk and and all of the glitzy,filtered, glamorous curated
families is that it's just, it'sjust not fucking real and,
while beautiful to look at andit's, it's, it's essentially
parent shame porn.
It's it's like look at how wellwe are doing and we're able to
(24:20):
monetize this act, and it's notthat the principles monetize
this act is because you're likeyou're viewing this and we're
feeding off your shame and it'sjust really kind of murky and
yucky, I think.
Ben (24:37):
And it's not like the
underlying principles of it bad.
Like you know, I want to teachmy son sensitivity and validate
his feelings and do all of thatstuff.
It's just wrapped in this likethis slick, shiny package that
(24:58):
implies that you're not allowedto be human and you're not
allowed to have feelings, andyou're not allowed to have
feelings, Only their feelingsare allowed to exist, and I just
I don't think it's problematicand I think that you know well.
To counterbalance that, there'ssome really hilarious people
out there just putting upcomedic videos about what a shit
(25:21):
show it is to be a parent aswell, and they make me feel
better, you know.
Carter (25:26):
And that's the most
important thing is that we're
just seeing snapshots, fuckinglives that they choose to record
and upload.
But everything in life is aboutbalance.
But everything in life is aboutbalance.
So, whilst our kids aredefinitely in need of that
gentle nature and that nurturingand emotional availability,
it's also equally important, ifnot more important, to have your
(25:50):
children see you fall down bothphysically and emotionally, get
up, dust yourself off andapologise for your fuck-ups,
because that's how they learnhow to do the same.
They're sponges, you know, andit's also incredibly important
for children to kind ofexperience that rupture and
repair process with parenting.
(26:10):
You know they have tounderstand that sometimes
they're going to do things thatI do not like or my wife does
not like, or other people do notlike, and they need to
understand that their actionssometimes will have consequences
and they're not going to likeit, but that does not diminish
the love or the care that I havefor them.
(26:30):
So I'd like to switch over nowto maybe a little bit of history
with your music career or youryour work in in the mental
health and art space.
So how did that kind of comeabout?
How did that start?
And then a bit more about yournew single yeah, sure.
Ben (26:50):
So yeah, I've sort of
always fluctuated between music
and theater.
I sort of did both in primaryschool and high school and then
in canberra we go to like adifferent school from year for
year, 11 and 12 that we callcollege, and so there I did a
bit of drama and then got a cbecause I was I sucked at
(27:12):
journaling and I still suck atjournaling, like now I'm trying
to doing a bunch of these sortof mindset things where
everybody's like, oh, you gottajournal, like I hate journaling
anyway.
So I've got to see and I waslike, well, stuff, you then I'll
go do music.
And I did music then and thenfinished there and I was like,
well, I don't really want tolike my music interest is not to
go to the school of music anddo jazz or classical.
(27:33):
So when I went to uni I didtheater and went and ended up
going to canada to study for alittle bit, because the uni here
was like the theater programwas pretty much an english
program about plays, like it wasvery read plays and talk about
them and not much learn anythingabout doing them.
So I did that and then cameback and I was just kind of I
(27:56):
was planning on just finishingmy degree and move down to
Melbourne and in the first fewyears I graduated in 2005 and
had been back for about a year.
Then I just started getting intothe local art scene in Canberra
and realised that this placethat I'd grown up hating,
thinking it was boring becauseit wasn't Sydney or Melbourne,
(28:18):
it was actually an amazing cityand being surrounded by bushland
and being able to get from oneend to the other within half an
hour.
So yeah, I just sort of divedin and started a business
putting on music nights andtheater shows and art
exhibitions and just trying toget like some acting gigs where
I could.
And yeah, this friend of minewho I met through that scene was
(28:42):
part of a project that got somefunding from through the Mental
Health Foundation to createsome plays where interviews were
done with people with livedexperience of mental health
challenges and or stories weregathered from them and then
these stories and were presentedby what they deemed local
(29:04):
celebrities at the time, which Ijust thought was a bit weird.
But you know, so you'd havethis like weather person reading
these stories or someone from Ithink there was a couple of
politicians and stuff and I goton board as part of, yeah, a
group of volunteer people thatwere sort of just doing some
physical theatre stuff and a fewlittle scenes in between all of
(29:25):
those, and that was kind oflike the first time I got a
sense of how art can be used toaddress social issues and to
provide catharsis for thosewho've had difficult times
through storytelling and throughtheir stories being heard and
(29:49):
them feeling heard, and I endedup sort of interacting.
I got a side gig running an artgallery because I had put on
some art exhibitions and thatwas for a community center and
ended up, you know, we do mentalhealth month exhibitions and
international day of disabilityexhibitions, and between these
(30:11):
plays and that world, um yeah, Ijust kind of I mean, in some
ways it was kind of selfish inthat applied art is one of the
only ways to make money from.
Art is like using your artthrough a community service in
some way is like a place whereyou can get a paycheck.
So there was a bit of that, butit was a really impactful thing
(30:32):
to just yeah, to see, to get asense of what art can do for
anybody who's been marginalisedin some way or another.
And then the guy who got me tobe part of that initial theatre
show ended up having anotherproject a few years later.
It resulted in the beginning ofthis theatre company and so we
(30:53):
were creating some theatre-basedworkplace training around
accessibility and inclusion inworkplaces for people with
disability or mental healthchallenges, using this thing
called Forum Theatre, whereyou'll use real stories of
people with lived experience ofan issue and create like a 10 to
15-minute play where all thethings that could go wrong go
(31:16):
wrong and people behave badly,and then you perform the play a
second time and when theaudience sees something that
they think should or could bedone differently, they yell stop
, come up and replace one of theactors and try and improvise a
better outcome.
And yeah, it was this thingthat was funded funded by a
(31:36):
small grant and a lot of us wereworking volunteer on it, and
but we were kind of like we'vegot something really cool here
and so a small group of us kindof continued on and ended up
becoming an incorporatedassociation and just I mean, we
sort of departed from thatparticular thing that we created
and just started doing allsorts of different things we've
(31:57):
we put on, put on plays where weinterviewed people with lived
experience of trauma about whatit was like to live with trauma
and then had, like an actor anda dancer and a musician come up
with creative responses to thoseinterviews and then present
that as like a creativedevelopment.
With the Department of Defence,with soldiers how do they phrase
(32:19):
it?
Currently serving people whohave physical or psychological
injury was the way they phrasedthe cohort for that.
And we, yeah, we was contractedto work on a great program they
have where people could come toCanberra and spend four weeks
doing full-time arts and yeah,that was an amazing experience
(32:40):
and just yeah, seeing I'd hadlittle to no interaction with
anybody military until thatpoint, and I think you sort of
get a.
You get a when you're an artsyleftist who doesn't like the
fact that there's wars.
You get this sort of sense ofwhat military people are like,
and it was so.
You just broke all of that down, met so many amazing humans
(33:03):
doing that program and sawreally huge changes from when
they walked in at the beginningof that four weeks to when they
walked out and felt really proudto have been part of that and
yeah, so how much should Iblather about this?
So, yeah, now we do all sortsof different projects and we've
(33:25):
just celebrated 10 years ofbeing a company.
Carter (33:29):
You're still in that
role as well.
Ben (33:33):
Yeah, so I'm sort of a
co-CEO and we've had anywhere
from two to three CEOs at anyone time over the years,
depending on what's happening atthe time.
Both of us we've had somereally big projects that have
allowed us to expand the team,which has been really good
because I think, like the artsis underfunded, the community
(33:55):
sector is underfunded and whenyou're doing both, you're doubly
underfunded and like burnout isa real risk.
And, yeah, we've sort of gotsome big projects at the moment
and it's allowed us to expandthe team and allowed me to kind
of like take a little bit of astep back so I can focus more on
the music.
Like I was working four days aweek and then when my wife went
(34:20):
back to work after having Joby,for a long time she was on four
days a week and then she decidedto they wanted her to go to
five days a week and so when shedid that, I stepped down to
more like three days a week so Icould, yeah, work more on the
music side of things, becauseultimately, that's more my
passion project and what I'vesort of throughout the last year
(34:43):
and this process of trying tokind of market myself on the
socials, but to try and do thatin a way that's like you know.
So you're not just trying to.
People are only interested inyour music if they're interested
in you and your music is areflection of you, and so it's
not just like people.
And people are sick of beingsold to as well.
(35:06):
So, like they don't want the,here's my new single, go and
listen to it.
They want.
Why did you write this single?
Why do you write music in thefirst place?
Why do you?
And it's been a big process of,while trying to figure out how
(35:26):
to be a parent and how to manageadhd, there's just all of this
um whirlwind of also just tryingto figure out who the hell am I
, why, why do I do what I do?
Why have I ever done what I'veever done?
And it's a really, and doing itin this way.
Which I love about TikTok is itgives me this like great way to
play and be creative and mergemy, my sort of music and theater
(35:51):
backgrounds into one thing.
One thing, and you know, talkabout mental health in silly and
funny ways to kind of disarmpeople's walls and barriers
around talking about it and thentalking about funny, ridiculous
things in serious ways.
Carter (36:12):
Just natural promotion
really.
Ben (36:15):
Yeah, just trying to be
authentic, you know, trying to
be authentic in the way I'mpresenting to the world as I am
when I'm writing a song, becausethat's that's what it's about.
And I think, ironically, thethe things that have gone most
viral are not the things thatI've done, either about my adhd
or about my music in any.
(36:37):
I was like spotting this trendof people doing the like you
can't summon a generation withone song thing and I was like,
well, I'm going to take that tothe next level and make it about
summoning multiple generationswith one song and use ACDC
Thunderstruck.
And it just popped off on bothTikTok and Facebook just
hundreds and thousands of views.
And then I was like, oh, that'sa bit fun.
(36:57):
And so I've been making a bitof a series.
I just posted my seventh one ofthose the other day and I was
thinking I've been doing thisprogram and and there's a
mindset coach in there and it'slike this program around like
content creation and stuff likethat.
And you know, at the beginningthey're like why, you know, why
do you, why do you do what youwant to do and why do you do
(37:20):
what you do?
And I was sort of just liketalking about that sort of sense
of like wanting people to notfeel alone and people to feel
understood, because that's whatmusic's done for me.
And they were like, yeah,that's great, everybody can say
that.
And like it sort of all clickedto me, the Mindset Coach guy
(37:41):
told me to watch a video bysimon sinek about, about the why
, which I think it's a videoabout him talking about why
apple computers were, you know,so successful in the face of all
of their competition and, and Ican't even remember exactly
what he said to trigger it.
But I ended up pausing thevideo and then just writing this
(38:01):
whole thing about the fact thatI think that the world is
absolutely controlled by traumaand like whether you've got like
big t or little t trauma,everybody has this like an
experience or a series ofexperiences where the
expectations that they had ofthe world and the fact that they
(38:23):
would be safe in it and lookedafter by it is like shattered in
some way by what happened tothem.
And you know, I've got the mostvanilla middle class example of
when I found out the world wasnot a fair place.
It was playing connect for at aschool holiday program and I
(38:44):
had one and the person I wasplaying against put one in so
that it looked like they won ontop, and then they pulled the
thing out so that I couldn'tprove that I'd won and like that
is just such a middle class wayto.
You know, I didn't find out theworld wasn't a fair place
because someone was bombing mycity or something like that.
And look, I've got some muchbigger trauma.
(39:06):
That happened later on.
But whatever you've got, you'vegot this.
Everybody's got some experiencewhere the unfairness of the
world was a surprise to them andthat has lasted with them in
some way and that when, like,I'm not saying that example was
traumatic to me.
Carter (39:22):
But that's when you
figured out yeah, it's what I
figured out.
Ben (39:26):
But, like there there are a
number of things that have you
know, have been traumatic inhindsight and that when you
experience trauma, you sort ofyou have a loss.
You have a loss of like, powerand a sense of safety, and that
it sort of clicked to it.
So I sort of like was writingthis stuff down and so that was
(39:50):
kind of my why.
And then I'm like, so how am Iaddressing these things?
And I sort of, yeah, came upwith this, like trying to
restore innocence throughnostalgia, like by, and I
thought about the why people areconnecting with these, like
summoning multiple generationsongs, and it's like it's either
(40:10):
this sense of nostalgia aboutbefore the world hurt you or
it's music that got you by whilethe world, you know, while you
were trying to process what theworld hurt you.
And I think like, yeah,connecting to the inner child in
some way like is a reallypowerful thing and yeah, that's
essentially belger is when youreally really break it down.
(40:32):
It's essentially just likepositive core memories, before
you realize just how fucked thisplace yeah, yeah and I mean
there's, yeah, there's, there'ssort of more to that whole thing
.
But I guess I I yeah wanted toreflect on that whole thing with
the content creation andplaying around with all of these
(40:53):
different things and havingthese things that are not my
core reason for being there,being the things that pop off.
Carter (40:58):
But I'm, I journey in
tiktok and and social media is
very similar.
You know, I started theInstagram and TikTok page for
the podcast and I was just likeplanning on just posting like
this is a clip from a newepisode coming out whenever blah
, blah, blah.
No one wanted a bar of it.
(41:18):
So then I started kind of doinglittle tiny bits and pieces of
just like letting my humor showthrough a little bit more,
instead of always being likedoom and gloom and trauma,
trauma, trauma.
And then the first, my firstviral, I guess viral video, just
like I think 200, 250 000 viewsor something like that was
(41:39):
about peter dutton saying thatthe reason for violence against
women in australia is because ofviolence for the violent video
games.
And it's just like, oh yeah, Isaw that one, yeah, two and a
half minute rant of me justbeing like no, it's toxic
masculinity and blah, blah, blah.
And like I've I've been luckyenough to guest on another
podcast, um, and do a wholeepisode about toxic masculinity.
(42:00):
It's called round table mindsetand essentially it's like it
was like a debate and it wasreally fun, but like yeah, that
popped off and all of a suddenI've, you know, I went from
three, four hundred followers tolike twenty five hundred in the
space of a week, and yeah, thatdidn't even like that.
That was awesome at the sametime.
(42:21):
But then I was also like, whycan't my podcast be that popular
?
You know like, and I really hadto step back and put into
perspective just how many people250,000 people.
So now, like, whenever I postany video, and I see like 400,
500 views and that's it.
(42:41):
And I'm like, why can't it be acouple thousand?
I'm like, no, no, be a couplethousand.
I'm like no, no, picture howmany people 400, 500 people
actually are like, picture themin an auditorium and just
fucking thankful because tiktokhas really, really given me like
this skewed view of of whatsuccess is and it's.
Ben (43:00):
It's algorithms are super
weird too, like like if, if, if
it doesn't break through acertain barrier immediately, it
will stay at that, like the 200club or the 300 club, and it's
you know there's all sorts ofweird stuff that it's doing to
figure that out.
But yeah, that that toxicmasculinity thing, like yeah,
(43:22):
this revelation I had while youknow figuring out what my why
was, it's like so many of theyou know toxic masculinity too
is a bunch of blokes who haveinner children that were bloody
hurt and they've gone and theirway of dealing with that is to
go out there and be, you know,be aggressive and put other
people down, and it's likeeverything I can.
(43:43):
You can trace every singleproblem in the world to.
You know, back to like somesome kid feeling hurt at one
point.
And you know I know you'vespoken about bullying a lot.
You know, like I, I got prettybadly bullied as well and like
people process thingsdifferently.
You know, like I look at my lifeand I think I've actually I've
(44:04):
had a really easy life comparedto a lot of people, and then I
sort of sit back and I tallythings up and I'm like, oh,
actually, no, yeah, there arethere, like is I may be, uh, you
know, a vanilla middle class umperson, but I've had real
struggles and those strugglesare valid and some of them, a
lot of them, were beyond mycontrol and were not my fault,
(44:27):
or, and like some people cantake that and and be bitter
about that and go start wars orcommit violence or, you know,
try and exert their, reclaimtheir power through domination
in some kind of way.
And like I've got this personwho I adopted as a surrogate
(44:48):
sister when we were in a sharehouse years ago and she's had a
really difficult life with someyou know role models that left
her in difficult positions andshe's just this powerhouse.
Like she's gone out and beenlike, well, well, I'm going to
take that and I'm going tochange the world and try and
make it a better place and, youknow, has had lunch with
(45:10):
michelle obama and you knowstuff like this and like I guess
I don't even know what my pointis.
It's just that, yeah, what I,what I try to do, whether it's
through my music or through thetheater company, is to try and
Be the change you want to see inthe world.
Yeah, just try and rebuildpeople's sense of you know
(45:31):
agency, innocence, safety, Ifeel like and have them do that
for me too.
Carter (45:38):
Yeah, post-covid man, I
think we really like, we need
the people like you and me andyour, you know, surrogate sister
, you know we need those peopleto rebuild because there's no
community anymore post-covid.
Everyone's out for themselvesand it was very much that way
prior to, anyway, but likepeople stopped being like, they
(46:02):
stopped knowing how to fuckinginteract with people, you know.
So, no, it's, it's awesome.
I, I love, I love your, yourtiktok, I love the work you're
doing and I especially really dolove the new single, which we
will talk about now.
So it is called listen.
Now, why don't you run methrough the story behind it and
the writing process, how itbecame?
Ben (46:23):
what it?
Carter (46:23):
now is.
Ben (46:25):
Yeah.
So I got a.
I was sitting there with mywife it was probably like it was
nearly midnight and we werelike we had a busy day and we
were just like just finallysettling down to try and watch a
show together which is part ofour love language, of like
sitting on the couch andwatching our stories and the
(46:46):
phone rang and I kind of Ilooked at her you know how you
can have that like silentcommunication with your partner
where you just pull certainfaces at each other.
I was like my face was likeshould I answer that or should
we just sit and watch the show?
And then she sort of did thatfacial expression without
talking.
It was just like you should,you should answer it.
(47:07):
And so I picked it up and wentoutside and, yeah, it was a mate
who I hadn't spoken to for awhile and I could tell from his
voice that he was.
You know, his voice was shakyand wavery and uh, and he was
slurring a bit, and so you knowthe way I sort of phrase it is.
He had a belly full of whiskeyand a head full of despair and
(47:30):
throughout the conversation hetold me that he had recently
tried to unalive himself.
You'll put a trigger warning atthe beginning of this, won't
you suicide?
Carter (47:41):
on here, I'll tick.
Ben (47:43):
Yeah, I don't know why I've
actually sort of taken to just
using that phrase anyway, Idon't know why.
Maybe it's because half thetime I'm making stuff for TikTok
, so I just do it.
But yeah, and I just kind oflike, despite having worked
through the arts in these ways,it was, you, you know, never in
a sense where I had to be directsupport for someone going
(48:06):
through that without there beingsomeone better trained around,
and so I kind of like wassitting there freaking the fuck
out, just not really knowing howto handle it.
So, but but then I was justlike, okay, you know, what would
, what would you want if you'drevealed this to someone?
And so I just like listened I'mjust her, you know asked him
(48:28):
like what will you know?
What were the thoughts that?
What are the thoughts thatyou're having?
That like make you feel likethat's the solution?
And he, you know, went into allthings about all that.
You know really quite stockstandard negative self-talk
stuff that comes with anxietyand depression or anything.
That's just like I'm a piece ofshit, I'm never going to amount
(48:51):
to anything, I've ruined this,that and the other about my life
and you know, I'm not as aresult of that, I'm not worthy
of amounting to anything.
And I was like, oh fuck, I've,I've had all those thoughts too
sorry, are we allowed to f-bombon here?
Yeah, man, yeah.
(49:11):
And so, yeah, I was just likeit was this kind of weird
revelation to me that we'd hadthe same thoughts but for some
reason we just had verydifferent possible solutions to
you know how to deal with thosethoughts.
And he, yeah, he'd sort of likeI probably always drank more
than someone should, but you Idon't think you would ever call
(49:34):
me like an alcoholic.
And he, he dived.
You know he was buying a bottleof whiskey a day and just
sinking it.
And I I guess you know whenyou're doing that, the light at
the end of the tunnel seems alot further away.
And so, basically, I just yeah,I just talk to him, I organise
to meet up with him the next day, which, you know, later on I've
(49:56):
done some mental health firstaid training.
That just sort of talks abouthow important that can be in
terms of creating future planswhen someone is a in a state of
suicidal ideation.
And, yeah, to sort of his.
His mom was like a facebookfriend of mine through having
followed my music or something.
(50:16):
So I I sort of reached out toher and tried to build a bit of
a better support network around,around his family and some some
other friends.
And yeah, then a few days laterI was kind of driving along and
, as is often the case, thestart of a song strikes you when
you're nowhere near a guitarand I just thought about, yeah,
(50:40):
just how similar our, thenegative things that happened
inside our heads had been andhow him, hearing that from
someone who you know he wasfeeling like he was this huge
piece of shit and viewing me asthis person who had their life
together because, you know, Ihad a wife and I had a job and I
was doing something and hearingthat I had thought exactly the
(51:03):
same things about myself, justkind of like put things into
perspective for him in adifferent way.
And so the first lines of ofthe song, like you know, listen
now, before you sleep, I'll tellyou where I hide the secrets I
can't keep it's like, yeah, man,like I've got those secrets too
.
Anyway, so, yeah, I sort of gotto the point where I'd half
(51:26):
written this song.
I sort of had a verse and apre-chorus and a chorus and I
was feeling a bit lost with itand I'd been doing this
songwriting course and ended uptaking this song into a co-write
with the mentor of that courseand he was like I really like
the song.
And he was like I really likethe song and while I'm sure he
didn't use these words, the wayI took it, because it was a
(51:47):
personal thing to me was like,oh, we've just got to throw out
this chorus.
And I'd always known that youcan't be precious in a co-write.
And but yeah, I was like, wow,ok, this is quite personal to me
, but I just sort of trusted theprocess and yeah, he was
absolutely right.
We threw out the chorus, wekept some bits of it that were
good and we wrote a new chorusand now the song does a greater
(52:10):
honor to the situation than itwould have otherwise, and so
that was just a really biglesson for me in just trusting
the universe and letting go ofsome preciousness about things.
And so, yeah, now the song ishere, it's out.
It's actually been producedsince 2021, the first time I
listened to it.
I found a photo in my phone theother day which was of me
(52:31):
listening to it in headphones inWA somewhere for the first time
.
And, yeah, I've now released itto the world and decided to
yeah, to donate 50% of anyincome that comes through
Bandcamp, which is one of theeasiest it was sort of the
easiest way to go.
Well, I can track that incomevery easily as to what sales
(52:52):
come from this song, rather thanyou know, whatever, zero, zero,
zero, three cents of I get perstream on Spotify or whatever.
So, yeah, I'll be donating tosuicide prevention charities.
I mean, the beauty part is thatthat can continue for all time,
Like, I can just mix it upevery couple of months.
I think I'm going to start withLifeline.
(53:12):
Even though they're, like youknow, one of the big four in
terms of, you know, that sort ofthing, their phones need to be
picked up because they're alsoone of the better known and one
of the more likely to receive acall when someone needs it.
But, yeah, I'm also wanting tomix it up and get in support
some more local,grassroots-based charities as
(53:34):
well.
There's like one here inCanberra that I'm looking at
doing next.
And then, yeah, let me know ifthere's any down in Melbourne
that need a hand.
Or you know, in Victoria You'renot actually in Melbourne, are
you?
Carter (53:47):
Yeah, I'm regional, I'm
about regional out of.
Melbourne, yeah.
Ben (53:50):
Yeah, yeah, but yeah,
whatever, Let me know if there
are any little guys that needextra funds because, yeah, this
song can continue to do goodthings well beyond the now
hopefully, yeah, no.
Carter (54:04):
I definitely agree.
This song can continue to dogood things well beyond the now.
Hopefully, yeah, no.
I definitely agree, and I lovethe fact that you you are, you
know, putting your money whereyour mouth is, so to speak, and
and following through on thosedonations.
As soon as I saw your postabout the 50 being donated,
signed up on bandcamp and sentyou through through a little bit
of money.
Ben (54:21):
You were my second and my
first was another one of our
ADHD brothers on TikTok who Ithink I've seen you guys
commenting on each other's posts.
But yeah, that was a reallyinteresting thing too, to you
know, having been sitting inthis world of TikTok where
you're online.
But I think this particularplatform creates community in a
(54:44):
way that Facebook and Instagramjust don't like.
The algorithms just work inthat way.
And to have the two people whowere first to go and buy my
single were not my friends orfamily who you know, or any of
my fans who've known me fordecades.
(55:04):
It was these two blokes thatI've just like connected with on
this social media platform,which was just, yeah, that was
really nice yeah, really nicefeeling, I know.
Carter (55:14):
Oh, I'm glad that I
could be a part of that.
Yeah, no, as soon as Idownloaded it, like, I told you
that I was going to do like areaction video and um, it was,
yeah, the first time I hadlistened to it, mate and I'm no
stranger to crying on camera, asyou would have probably seen on
a couple of my TikTok videosbut yeah, mate, it had me in
tears.
There's not many songs thesedays that can do that for me and
(55:36):
move me in such a way.
So, truly, from the bottom ofmy heart, thank you because it's
a special song for you.
But like what special song forme?
Because I've I've been whereyour friend is and I've been
where you are and, unfortunately, not every time it's worked out
to the best it could have.
(55:56):
Yeah, it really is like apersonal, a personal journey for
a lot of people and it and itdeserves all of the success and
it deserves its its place in allof the charts.
Ben (56:07):
I really believe that yeah,
thanks, man, and I think, like,
what, like, it's one thing toraise the money, but what one?
I guess the thing I want thesong to do the most is to just
try and get that message throughto people, to just like break
down the stigma, and especiallymen, like, like, if you just try
(56:32):
and ignore that stigma for asecond and you reach out to
someone, you might find out thatyou are not alone and that they
feel exactly the way you do andthat they have ways to help you
.
And if that message can stopone person ending up in a casket
, then that's worth it.
Hopefully it can stop more.
Carter (56:53):
100%, 100%.
Well, my friend, is thereanything that you would like to
throw out into the world beforeyou go and retrieve your guitar
to serenade me?
Ben (57:06):
check in on, check in on
people, because it's one thing
to reach out, but, like,sometimes, uh, the people will
be more likely to reach out whenthey never would.
If you, if you say, how are you?
And then when they go, I'm fine, you go, how are you?
One more time, that might justbe enough.
And yeah, I guess just like, goout there and support all the
(57:30):
people who are trying to makechange in this world, with all
the likes and follows and shares, because you know it helps us,
it helps us do what we do and ithelps us reach more people.
And you know that's like notnot just saying come and like
and follow me, but like you know, if there's an artist or if
there's a, if there's anadvocate or someone, I think
(57:53):
people underestimate what a few,a few clicks on their part can
do for those of us that aretrying to achieve something.
So I feel like I want to bewalking away with something much
more poignant than this.
I want a final mic drop moment,but maybe that'll just be the
song.
Carter (58:11):
I think it'll be the
song yeah.
Ben (58:14):
But yeah, thanks so much
for having me on, man, and I
love what you're doing and, whoknows, I might go start my own
one and get you on it at somepoint.
Carter (58:23):
Mate, I would be
absolutely honoured.
And yeah, I'm not gatekeepingthe parenting and mental health
podcast world at all.
Ben (58:31):
No, we didn't talk about
the parenting anywhere near as
much as I thought we would, butmaybe you'll just have to have
me back on.
Yeah, have me back on once I'vegot two in the belt and see how
I'm going.
Carter (58:42):
Yeah, yeah, any time you
, yeah, have me back on once
I've got two in the belt and seehow I'm going.
Yeah, yeah, any time.
You're always welcome.
All right?
Yeah, go grab your guitar andI'll see you back here in a
minute.
Ben (58:48):
All right, thanks, mate.
This has been Drysdale andyou're listening to the Touched.
Out Podcast.
Listen now, before you sleep.
(59:12):
I'll tell you where I hideSecrets.
I can't keep Listen now, littlewhy.
I Will show you where I hidethe cracks Behind my smile.
(59:34):
Just a word Before you sleep.
Let me help you up Before youslip away into the night.
I'm here to get you by.
Listen now, make it through thenight, pick up all the pieces
(01:00:04):
Enough to get you back, butlisten now, it's gonna be
alright.
We'll take a stumble throughthe tunnel and we'll make it to
the light, don't you know?
You're not alone.
Tell me all the things that youcan't let them know and I'll
(01:00:34):
listen here.
But do I?
Yeah, if you only knew the waysI put myself on trial.
Just a word before you sleeplet me help.
Speaker 3 (01:00:50):
You see all the
little things that you've done
right, and it'll be better.
Ben (01:01:00):
if you listen now, make it
through the night.
We'll pick up all the piecesEnough to get you back.
Listen now, it's gonna bealright, we'll take a stumble
(01:01:20):
through the tunnel and we'llmake it to the light.
Listen now, listen now, listennow, listen now.
Speaker 5 (01:01:47):
Listen now.
Listen now Before.
Carter (01:01:51):
Go, thank you, thank you
so much.
I really appreciate that.
And yeah, yet again, mate, Ireally can't even put into words
just how fucking beautiful thatsong is.
And, yeah, you should beimmensely proud of the work
you've done.
Thanks, man, thanks so much andthank you for coming on.
(01:02:12):
Fuck, got me good.
Thank you for coming on, andthank you for sharing your story
and thank you for sharing yourjourney and just thank you for
being here, man, you're, you'rea fucking good dude and I reckon
I got you, man, right back atyou proud to call you a friend
yeah, you too, man.
Ben (01:02:30):
Thanks for everything
you're doing.
Carter (01:02:31):
No worries, mate, until
we speak again catch you on the
next one wake up, it's anotherday.
Speaker 5 (01:02:39):
Try and find a way to
make it so my life's a better
place.
If there's one thing I see,then your only thing is me Just
knowing that I'm trying to makea change.
Can I put it all on me,responsibilities and all the
(01:03:05):
other nonsense coming byrepeatedly?
But there's one thing I know,it's knowing to let go.
Just knowing that I'm trynamake a change Doesn't seem too
much Just to ask for love, causethere's many things that I'll
(01:03:28):
do over and I've got a lot, butI won't give up On those many
things that I'll do over.