My Brain is a Race Car | Neurodivergent Parenting With Nell Harris

Nell, a bestselling children's author-illustrator, brings her refreshing perspective on neurodiversity to this heartfelt conversation about parenting, creativity, and breaking generational cycles. After receiving her own ADHD and autism diagnoses as an adult, Nell transformed her experiences into groundbreaking children's books that explain neurodivergent traits through feelings rather than clinical terminology.

"I grew up just wanting to be able to focus... just wanting to be the potential that everyone supposedly could see in me," Nell shares, describing the self-loathing that drove her to create resources ensuring her own children wouldn't face the same struggles. Her series—including "My Brain is a Race Car," "My Body Has a Bubble," and "My Feelings Are Waves"—presents neurodiversity as simply different neurotypes rather than conditions needing fixing, connecting with children through emotional experiences rather than diagnostic criteria.

The conversation beautifully explores how both hosts navigate parenthood with neurodivergent brains, teaching their children self-advocacy skills they never received growing up. From explaining personal boundaries through "hard bubbles" to helping children recognize when they need mindful days, Nell demonstrates how her lived experience translates into practical parenting tools. There's raw honesty about body image, communication challenges in relationships, and the powerful ways children perceive beauty differently than adults programmed by societal expectations.

Most striking is their shared commitment to breaking cycles of "children should be seen and not heard" parenting they experienced, embracing instead a model where feelings are validated, needs are met without shame, and neurodivergent traits are celebrated rather than suppressed. Nell's creative approach—developed through her own journey from tattoo artist to acclaimed author—offers hope and practical wisdom for parents navigating similar paths.

Curious about Nell's books or approach? Find her neurodiversity-focused children's books at www.nellharris.com or check out her social channels where she generously shares readings and resources for aspiring creators.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
We would like to acknowledge the traditional
custodians of this land we payour respects to the elders, past
, present and emerging, for theyhold the memories, the
traditions and the culture ofthe Aboriginal and Torres Strait
Islander people across thenation.

Speaker 2 (00:16):
So I've had honestly like a terrible relationship
with my body up until becoming aparent, but still the thoughts
creep back in.
So my daughter's sitting thereand she's squishing my tummy and
I can feel self-consciousness,but I don't let that translate.
And then she said something shewas like you know, I hope when
I grow up I've got a squishytummy like you.
And I was like, oh, thank you.

Speaker 3 (00:39):
When mommy was a little girl and mommy left her
dad, and when daddy was a boy hegot bullied really bad.
When mommy met daddy theythought something either had.
Then mommy became a mommy anddad became a dad.
Now you're screaming at yourbrother in his Lego underfoot.
We're trying to do the best wecan, but it's not very good.
Daddy's really sorry.
He didn't mean to shout.
We all get a little touchdownTouchdown.

(01:00):
We all get a little.
We all get a little touchdownTouchdown.
We all get a little.
We all get a little.
We all get a little touchdown.

Speaker 1 (01:09):
Touchdown.
Okay, so today we have Nell.
Nell is an amazingly talentedauthor and illustrator and she
lives just south of Adelaide.
How are you going today, nell?

Speaker 2 (01:23):
Good, thank you.
Thank you so much for having me.

Speaker 1 (01:24):
You're more than welcome.
I'm really, really excited forthis episode.
We've been teeing it up forabout a month now and been back
and forth and we've been havingsome great conversations in
between, but when it alwayscomes time to record, there's
children's sicknesses andeverything like that.
I feel like it's a very, verynormal theme in this podcast

(01:46):
Recording with parents and stuff.
It's always that give and take,so I appreciate you being here
with me today.
Why don't we start off with alittle bit about yourself and
your family?

Speaker 2 (01:56):
Yeah, no problem, so my name is Mel Thank you for
introducing me and I am anauthor and illustrator of
children's books.
I call them like myneurodiversity without all the
terminology series, and I talkabout just like neurodivergent
traits and experiences from afeelings point of view rather
than it being so clinical andfactual, and I'm sure like we'll

(02:21):
talk about this more later, butit has been as an adult.
It's been so empowering to kindof get the words to the
feelings.
But when you're four or five orsix, the big words or the
clinical words or thejustification words don't really
matter.
We live in a feelings thing asa kid and it's only like as we
get older.
So that's why I write my books,like as we get older.

(02:47):
So that's why I write my booksand I'm so grateful for the kind
reception of them because thereis so many amazing books out
there about neurodiversity andexperiences.
But I really do think that it'sa little bit unique to just be
talking about it from afirsthand feelings perspective.
So I'm definitely not steppingout of my realm, if that makes
sense.
I really want to your field ofknowledge.
Yeah, that's right, I reallywant to talk from a firsthand

(03:09):
perspective because I'm findingthat that's where a lot of the
misinformation happens is whenwe're being told how we're
feeling, we're being told whatthis experience is and
completely missing the mark.
There's so many things I'veread and so many studies I've
read where I'm like you have notexperienced this sensation or
you haven't gone throughsomething like this, because
there's no, there's nounderstanding there, and so

(03:33):
that's that's what I really justwant to do yeah, definitely.

Speaker 1 (03:36):
I think.
I think your books really,really hit this, this incredibly
important niche of explainingthings like neurodiversity and
ADHD without the clinicalstandpoint.
It's all well and good to seekthe clinical information and be

(03:56):
informed and learn aboutyourself from like a scientific
or psychological point of view,but there's always this nuance
and it's equally important tojust allow feelings to be
feelings instead of having it bedescribed to you or explained
to you from a trained standpoint, from an educational standpoint

(04:18):
.
I think that a lot of what yourbooks are doing operate in the
gray areas of life, and thosegray areas are just absolutely
paramount in learning more aboutyourself.

Speaker 2 (04:30):
Yes, yes, thank you, that's exactly it.
I want to talk about the humanexperience and I'm in the camp
where and I think we've talkedabout this, but I'm in the camp
where it's a neurotype.
Having an autistic brain,having an ADHD brain, having a
neurodivergent brain, it's justa different neurotype.
It's not something that needsto be fixed.

(04:51):
It's not something that'sbroken.
It's not anything other thanthis is how your brain works and
to live most harmoniously withyourself.
These are the things you needto do to look after your brain.

Speaker 1 (05:05):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely.
So we'll start off with,because you and I are quite
alike in our diagnosis later inlife, so you are also autistic
and ADHD.

Speaker 3 (05:19):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (05:19):
When were you diagnosed and ADHD yes, when
were you diagnosed?

Speaker 2 (05:26):
So my autism diagnosis came through at the
start of this year, with my ADHDdiagnosis coming in a couple of
years before that.
So I guess I found, you know,like I feel like ADHD is
definitely driving the car andthen, once I kind of understood
that, unpacked that, startedworking and optimizing myself.
Then that's when all theseother traits started coming up

(05:47):
and I'm like, oh, what do I do?
Why am I so particular on this?
Or, you know, I thought thatI'd kind of worked myself out
and completely, had mathedmyself out into this, but why?
You know, why is changing onetiny thing on a menu at a
restaurant causing me to have anabsolute meltdown and then

(06:09):
never going to that restaurantever again in my life.
So yeah, and I think that that'ssomething that does happen
quite a lot.
I do find that ADHD and autismseem to definitely be, you know,
in that same spectrum and it'sjust the way that our traits
present and that's what comesforward.
So that was definitely alearning journey, because that
just wasn't even something thatwas on my radar and it was

(06:32):
actually my daughter'spediatrician.
That was just.
Like you know, the apple hasn'trolled far from the tree, yeah.

Speaker 1 (06:39):
So it sounds like your experience is pretty,
pretty similar to mine.
So my son was diagnosed with aglobal developmental delay and
then autism and then, shortlythereafter, I was diagnosed ADHD
and I was medicated for theADHD and because of that
medication it leveled out myADHD and then, as you said, adhd

(07:01):
is the driving factor, whereasautism that passenger.
It seems that once I wasmedicated, the passenger decided
to grow some balls and justlike demand the auxiliary cord
and just start playing the samemusic over and over and I was
like who the fuck am I?
What the fuck is going on?

Speaker 2 (07:18):
Yes, yes, and that playing the same music, like
2012, m83 dropped Midnight Cityand I tell you I be spotify's
top listener for that one.
It is such a bop and I just Idon't know why it's not like
anything else I listen to, butit just I don't know the noises
in that.
They just hit right but it is,it's been so, it has been, it's

(07:39):
been a whole nother journey.
And there is, you know, I guess, having that ADHD diagnosis.
You know the ADHD.
Like you know, I lovespontaneity and things like that
, but I also like to have arigid routine and know exactly
what I'm doing.

Speaker 1 (07:52):
Yeah, yeah, I am exactly the same.
There's days where I just longfor adventure and just to like
piss off somewhere and dowhatever.
And then the second I teasethat a little bit more I'm like
nope, I'm pretty good here, justdaydreaming about it was enough
for me.
Now I'm just going to lay onthe couch for 12 hours and
recover from my daydreaming.

Speaker 2 (08:14):
Yes, yeah, I remember I had, and this was like before
my diagnosis, and this is whereyou know going in and having
that diagnosis, and, like I'mdefinitely someone who, even
though I do have my formaldiagnoses, I felt that that was
important for me and because Idid also want to try medication
as a support for my ADHD,because mine is internalized, so

(08:39):
mine's all.
It's not so much outwardlyimpulsive actions, it's just my
brain is so active and to thepoint where I can't sleep and
obviously, being creative andbeing a creator, I'll have like
15, 20 different projects goingat once and I couldn't hone in
on anything, which would thenjust make me go into this stasis
and stop.
So that's why I sought that.
But I do genuinely believe thatin this economy and in this

(09:02):
medical system that there isvalidity in a self-diagnosis,
because it's financially andtime-wise near impossible to
access at the moment.

Speaker 1 (09:13):
Can you tell me a little bit about your family?
How many kids have you got?

Speaker 2 (09:18):
Yes, so I live just south of Adelaide in like a
really tiny little beach towntoo on the Fleurier Peninsula,
which is really nice and quiet.
We don't even have mailboxes ora postie that comes around.
So I really that was like sucha selling factor for me, for my
house, cause I'm like you mean,no one's just going to come and
knock on my door like on randomdays, cause I also do love to

(09:39):
online shop, because not goinginto shopping centers is aces.
So yeah, the fact that thistown has no letter boxes or
anything is just the mostmagical thing for me.
And so I live here with mypartner, who he was diagnosed
with ADHD as a child and it wasreally interesting because
obviously that then gave me whatmy perception of what ADHD is.

(10:00):
And he is that real classic.
You know backflips off thefence into pools of parties and
you know I think back to likeour teenage years and our early
20s and honestly I don't evenknow how I have him or I have my
kids, because he survived solong to give me kids like he was
.
He should be a statistic really, like he's mellowed out a lot

(10:22):
now and really worked on himselfand reined that in, but he was
definitely that impulsive,dangerous adventures kind of guy
risk taker.

Speaker 1 (10:32):
Yes, it doesn't it doesn't help.
I'm assuming that yourpartner's probably around the
same age as us, or mid-30s kindof thing.
Yep, so he would have grown upwith jackass as his, um as his
guiding light much like me I'veI've broken majority of the
bones in my body yeah, yeah,that definitely has been his
north star.

Speaker 2 (10:52):
Like, yeah, the amount of injuries.
We'll just um with my daughter.
She had an accident on themonkey bars just recently and we
were talking about x-rays andthey were asking dad what parts
of his body has had x-rays andthe list got so long that we
kind of started flipping aroundto what hasn't been x-rayed so,
yeah, yeah, it would be ashorter list for me as well.

Speaker 1 (11:13):
Anytime my kids hurt themselves, they come to me
because they just know that I'llprobably know what it's like
yeah, even yesterday I was, um,I was doing the dishes and I
sliced my finger open on thebloody cheese grater.
Yeah, my kids are bloody morbid, they're obsessed with blood.
So they were like, did you takea photo?
And I was like, yeah, of courseI took a fucking photo.

(11:35):
If I didn't take a photo, itdidn't happen.

Speaker 2 (11:37):
So they're like did I say it?

Speaker 1 (11:39):
A four-year-old and a three-year-old being like whoa,
that's a lot of blood, dad.
And then my god bless my uh,well, not even god bless yuck.
I don't know why I say that.
Um, my, my three-year-old romangoes dad, make sure you don't
do that again.
Okay, you have to be careful.
You have to look after yourbody.
I'm like boy oh boy.
I wish you had have told methat when I was 12.

Speaker 2 (12:01):
yeah, like, look at that um perception and that
awareness and that that isactually so beautiful.
Oh, he's gorgeous, go him um.
Yeah, it's like with thatmorbidity.
I find that so interesting withmy girls too.
They have this like reallyhyper fixation on cemeteries.
They want to know everythingabout cemeteries.
They drove past once and it was, there was a funeral happening

(12:24):
and they're like, what's thatparty?

Speaker 3 (12:25):
and I'm like, well, it's not really a funeral
happening.
And they're like, what's thatparty?

Speaker 2 (12:26):
And I'm like well, it's not really a party.
And I'm like so, when you know,when someone dies, they take
them to a cemetery.
And then my eldest is like soit's a dead bed.
And I'm like that is the bestname I've ever heard.
Yes, it's a dead bed.

Speaker 1 (12:39):
Perfect, that's where you sleep.
My daughter, hendrix, also hasa fascination with cemeteries.
Every time we drive past one Itry to video her, but she always
cottons on.

Speaker 2 (12:49):
But yeah, every time we drive past when I'm not
recording, she goes dad, that'swhere, that's where people,
people get buried after they'redead just say it's so like
intensely, bluntly, and you'relike we're meant to dance around
this factor of, like you know,mortality, but these kids are
just like it is what it is andI'm like that's so cool yeah, I,

(13:12):
I don't.

Speaker 1 (13:13):
I don't dance around death.
I myself have a disgracefulfear of death and just the mere
thought of it can reduce me totears, but I want my to.
I talk to my kids how I wouldtalk to an adult.
I don't dance around shit.
If they ask me a question aboutmy penis, I'm going to tell
them the answer about my penis.
You know, when we dance aroundthese topics, that creates this

(13:36):
weird divide and then, oncethey're older, that's going to
create, you know, shame and allof that shit that we don't need.
You know, and there's it's so.
It's so weird coming in or likeliving in this world
post-parenthood versus beforeyou were a parent and the way in
which you perceive things.
Like I remember there was avideo that came out years ago,

(13:57):
before I was a parent of I thinkit was an american footballer,
tom brady or mike brady orsomething like that, kissing his
son, son, his son's like.
I think he was like 10 or 12and he was having a massage and
his son came in and gave him akiss on the lips and I remember
being like that's fucking weirddude, what the fuck.
And now that I have three kidswho give me kisses on the lips

(14:19):
every day.
I mean it'll get to a pointwhere they won't want to and
that's totally fine becausethat's their autonomy.
But I find nothing weird aboutit.
It's just this stupid socialsexualization of children that
makes it taboo and weird and Ijust hate that.
I hate it so much.

Speaker 2 (14:40):
No, I do see where you're coming from with that and
you know I remember talking tolike a mother at school and
she's like I would never let mykid wear like you know, like how
there's those like cut offoversized shirts, like crop tops
or something, and she's likeshe's seven, she can't wear
tardy stuff like that.
I'm like it's only tardybecause it's in your head Like
how cute is a baby belly?

Speaker 1 (15:00):
Like, come on, yeah, 100, really like 100.
I um, yeah, I don't get thissexualization and I still see it
all the time.
You know, I follow a lot ofparent tiktoks and all of that
jazz and they talk about, youknow, sharing with their kids
and how they would never do itand whatnot.

Speaker 2 (15:17):
I'm like I fucking share with my kids all the time,
like and I think that's areally good thing of just like
looping back around to like youknow, then, that shame and that
taboo and things like.
That's a really good thing ofjust like looping back around to
like you know, then, that shameand that taboo and things like
that you know, with obviouslylike growing the kids in my
tummy.
You know, the skin on my tummynow is softer and like and
squishy.
And my daughter, she comes outand she's like a cat, she like

(15:38):
pads it.
Mama, your tummy is so soft andI've always, like you know, I've
grown up with, like you knowthat Britney Spears, christina
Aguilera, platinum, straightblonde hair, stick thin Paris
Hilton, and I've always beenlike a curvier girl and so I've
had honestly like a terriblerelationship with my body up
until becoming a parent and butstill the thoughts creep back in

(16:01):
.
So my daughter's sitting thereand she's squishing my tummy and
like I can feelself-consciousness, but I don't
let that translate.
And then she said something shewas like you know, I hope when
I grow up I've got a squishytummy like you, and I was like
like yeah, thank you, becausethey don't know.

Speaker 1 (16:19):
They don't know it's.
It's those stupid adultprojections on onto kids that
create those things.
Yeah, don't give a fuck.
Kids know you as mom and dad.

Speaker 2 (16:29):
Yeah, and it's the way that we act and the way that
we treat each other and otherpeople is where I believe our
beauty comes from.
And I'm not like saying likeI'm the best parent in the world
or anything like absolutely notcoming in and making that flex,
but I think, because I ampresent and I do love my girls
and I tell them that I love themand I, you know, am
affectionate and give themcuddles and kisses and stuff,

(16:50):
that that's where my beautycomes from, from them.
So then, to liken themselves tome and want a squishy tummy at
this current age, I think that'sthe biggest compliment.

Speaker 1 (17:01):
It's beautiful?
Yeah, absolutely.
I myself have a horrible viewof my own body.
I've always been kind of thefat kid in school and whatnot.
I was bullied relentlesslygrowing up and I've never had a
good relationship with the way Ilook.
But my kids don't see that andthey never will Like.
Yesterday was 27 here.
It was a beautiful day.
I walked around topless and gotin the pool with them and my

(17:25):
son sits there and bloody pullson my nipples.
He calls them penises.
He's like Dad, this is yourpenis and twists my nipple and
like inside of me fucking crawls.
I'm like God don't touch me.
But on the outside I'm justlike, yeah, man, no, that's my
nipple, that's not my penis, youdon't have to squeeze it so
hard.
That kind of hurts.
I'm like bodies are normal,everyone's got one and

(17:48):
everyone's is different and weshould just make sure,
especially for emerginggenerations and pliable minds,
that we're celebrating allbodies and not shaming.
Fat's not a word in our house,neither is junk food, it's just
sometimes foods.
I think it's incrediblyimportant.

Speaker 2 (18:09):
We're the same.
I just think I just want toshield and shelter the girls
from that as much as I can, foras long as I can, in order to
just kind of build up thatresilience and strength, like
I'm not deluded in the sensethat it won't ever cross them,
but if I can give them astronger beginning to that and
be a example of it.

(18:31):
You know, they don't need toknow the internal dialogue or
the like you said, like justfeeling absolutely, just
mortified and just horrid inmyself when my daughter's
squishing my tummy or thingslike that, but it's just, yeah,
I'm really open with the girls.
So that's one thing that Iprobably don't translate out is

(18:51):
those things, because I justdon't think they need it.

Speaker 1 (18:55):
Yeah, my daughter is very funny.
Hendrix, my oldest, she's inthis stage where I compliment
her all the time on anything Ipossibly can, and not just like
you're such a beautiful girl, Ilove you, like I make sure.
I say you're funny and you'resmart and you're caring and
everyone wants to be your friendand I just think you're
absolutely amazing.

(19:15):
But lately she's really reallylike give him an inch, take a
mile, kind of thing, like thislast night I, um, I hopped into
bed with her and gave her alittle cuddle, cause she was a
bit sad, she didn't want to goto bed and afterwards she goes
dad, after today, which istomorrow, can we please
celebrate me?
And I was like what do you meanshe, I go.

(19:36):
How would you like us tocelebrate you?
Because I feel like I celebrateyou every day.
I tell you nice things aboutyourself and I always tell you I
love you and I always give youcuddles if you ask for them.
How would you like us tocelebrate you?
She says maybe do some funthings with me.
And I said we did fun thingsall day today, baby.
We were in the pool together,we played games together.

(19:57):
She goes yeah, but that waswith everyone else.
I just want, I just want a dayafter today to just be
celebrating me.
So I said how about I'll readbooks to you tomorrow night and
we'll celebrate you?
She's like yeah, and I justthink like, as a four-year-old,
her ability to articulate her,her wants and her needs is a

(20:18):
chef's kiss.

Speaker 2 (20:19):
Yep, yep, and then like that's the one time where
I'm so there with you, that'sthe one time where I really
celebrate mine and my partner'sparenting.
I don't know if I've said ityet, but we've got two girls,
seven and five and that's justone of the key things that we
really want to do is that wewant to give that.
Self-advocacy is such a bigthing for us.
So you know, we have mindfuldays.

(20:41):
Our school is reallyunderstanding of our family and
our family dynamic, and so thegirls know that they can make a
call on a mindful day.
They also know that they, youknow they can't abuse the
mindful day request.
But if they're feeling run downor burnt out, they say I need a
mindful day or even the otherlittle things.
Like the little things, orburnt out, they say I need a
mindful day or even the otherlittle things, like the little

(21:02):
things in my books.
You know, my books always gotlike like kind of like
self-advocacy or self littleregulation sentences or
something like that, and so mystories and stuff don't come
from nowhere.
In my bubble book I talk about,you know, putting a hard bubble
up and that's when you like, saythat I need space and it's a
I've always got my hard arm out,so full arm, hard out, that's

(21:24):
the edge of your bubble and youjust say stop, I need space and
that's all you need to say.
You don't need to justify whyyou need it, you do not need to
explain anything.
You just firmly, calmly, stateyou need space.
And then if you're not gettingrespected on that, that's when
you take it to the next level,which is like obviously getting
a higher power in of some kindand yeah.

(21:46):
So it's like that's, that's allthe stuff that I have been doing
and it's it's actually beenreally cool because I've had a
couple of parents tell mestories how their daycare
teacher says that they do thislike I've got my heart bubble
out and I need space.
And to hear stories of otherchildren saying what I've taught
my girls to say has been likethe most surreal experience, and

(22:06):
I guess it's like also, I guess, validating to hear that other
parents and educators areagreeing with the lessons that
I'm giving my girls to to lookafter themselves and to advocate
for themselves.
I think, and I think this isprobably something that you and
I have talked about likepersonally, but the
self-advocacy was not in me as achild.
It was like you know that was apunishment self-advocacy If you

(22:30):
yeah, if you spoke up, it wasnot good and you're going to
help it.

Speaker 1 (22:34):
Yeah, yeah, 100%.
It was very much.
You know we both would comefrom the generation that was.
Children should be seen and notheard to step outside of that
and to discuss your feelings orespecially in terms of the way
you were treated by your parents, like to speak about that with
your parents and maybe speak upand say I don't think that's

(22:57):
fair.
You know you'd be met with,I'll give you something to
bloody cry about and all ofthose cliche responses.
Yeah you would definitely Jesus.
It's been so hard to unlearnthose things, but I think a
massive, massive portion of ourgeneration who have now become

(23:20):
parents and are kind of doingparenting differently like us.
I'm not sure about you, but ithas been a common theme amongst
conversations with other parentsthat when parenthood was coming
up, you kind of looked atyourself in the mirror and were
like what kind of parent am Igoing to be?

(23:41):
And there was always this oneconstant for me that I was like
as long as I am not the parentthat my parents were, I think
I'll be okay.
And it was kind of this drivingforce not to say that my
parents were completely horribleor anything like that.
You know, they had their strongpoints and they had their weak
points, just like anyone,they're human.

(24:04):
Did they make mistakes?
Yes.
Did they do things that Idefinitely would not do now?
Yes, but they are a product oftheir upbringing, just like we
are a product of our upbringing.
The only difference is that nowwe have the internet and we
have millions of communities ofpeople that grew up the way in

(24:27):
which we grew up, and we nowhave essentially a voice.
It's a loud voice becauseenough people have come together
on blogs and on social mediaand realize that there's this
commonality.
And they're like on socialmedia and realise that there's
this commonality and they'relike there's better ways of
doing it.

Speaker 2 (24:42):
Absolutely.
I think also too, with thecommonality of parents, us, our
generation being no contact withour parents due to trauma and
things like that, and I guessthat's also put us in our like
you know, backed us into our owncorner in a good way, in seeing
that you know the hurt and theinjustice and the well you
should just, you know, backed usinto our own corner in a good
way in seeing that you know thehurt and the injustice and the

(25:02):
well you should just, you knowthey're your mother, you should
just forgive them, you shouldjust love them and just really
seeing that actually that's notacceptable.
And I do think that ourgeneration is the beginning of
the what do they call that?
Like the generational traumabreak.
As you said, like you know,parents they grew up in, you
know their parents were thepost-World War II, post-great

(25:24):
Depression experience, whichwould have been really really
dark times.
And I think you really hit thenail on the head there with
having that community and alsothat accountability of firstly
standing up for yourself andseeing that things are not okay
and it's okay to not be okayabout things that we shouldn't
just repress because they areour parents or you know they,

(25:47):
they didn't know better.
Well, no, they didn't knowbetter, but we and we do have a
lot more education today butlike little things, like a hug
or, and I love you shouldn'tneed a manual to say that to
your kid Like you don't need.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (26:04):
It's a tough one and I think a lot of the time.
I think about if it would bedifferent.
If you know the internet wasinvented in our parents'
generation, would it be anydifferent?

Speaker 2 (26:15):
Yeah, like is that when the turn would have
happened and the accountabilitywould have gone.
And it is interesting and Ifind definitely in like
neurodivergent, like inneurodivergent communities,
there's a lot of us who aregetting the late diagnosis
because you know well when I allmy stuff sits internally.
So I may not be a highly activeperson, but my brain is highly

(26:45):
active, which is obviouslysomething that just wasn't
recognized.
I was just always seen ashaving so much potential but
couldn't focus the attention.
And you know, the funniestthing is I got that comment as
an adult.
The other day I had anotheradult say to me there's so much
potential in you if you justmarketed it.

Speaker 1 (27:04):
I was like, oh my gosh, I'm in grade 10, no, I
could, I could pull outliterally every single one of my
report cards and I canguarantee on each and every page
there would be Matthew is anincredibly smart, smart young
man and he has immense potential, but he does not apply himself

(27:25):
and struggles to maintain focus.
It's just like how did you missthe ADHD?

Speaker 2 (27:30):
Yeah, and that's yeah , like I actually have like
reports that are, like you know,nell is incredibly bright, very
talented, talented but notpresent, like pretty much lights
are on no one's home.

Speaker 1 (27:45):
Yeah, it's just everyone's in the other room
like doing other stuff we werejust always the social
butterflies you know, got alongwith everyone, but was friends
with no one yeah that, and justkind of went between groups and
like don't really kind of anchoranywhere.

Speaker 2 (28:01):
But then when you do anchor with someone, then it's
like a forever thing, isn't it?
Like my best friend, she'sneurodivergent as well and she
lives up in Brisbane and onething I find so interesting
about neurotypical relationshipsor friendships is that they can
only exist in close proximityproperly.
Distance weakens them and formy bestie and I, like we've

(28:25):
lived apart for the most of thelast 10 years in separate states
, yet we talk to each otherevery day.
Like she's just a message hasjust come through this morning
wishing me luck for this morning, cause I've obviously told her
all about this and we're talkingon like five different social
platforms and every differentsocial platform is a different

(28:45):
conversation but of equal weightand oh, that's such a
neurodivergent thing yes, yeah,it's funny.
It's almost like you're talkingto separate people oh my gosh,
because she just showed me thisshow on Netflix called Last Stop
Larimer.
If anyone's into true crime andthen sprinkle a little bit of
like Tiger King, but Australianstyle, you've got a show.

(29:05):
I have a gander.
Yeah, it's good, it's reallygood.
Love to hear it.

Speaker 1 (29:11):
I want to talk a little bit about your books For
my listeners.
You have released three booksthus far.
Is that correct?
That's right, yes, I have Okay,so you released.
My Brain is a Race Car, my Bodyhas a Bubble and my Feelings
are Waves.
Did they come out in that order?

Speaker 2 (29:27):
Yes, that's the order they came out in.
Unfortunately they're not inthe, so it is going to be like a
rainbow of a series.
So my Brain is a Race Car is myred book, and I wrote that when
my eldest got her, when wereceived her ADHD diagnosis, and
I was like you know there wasso much for me to unpack and

(29:50):
learn that you know I wasn'tbroken, that my brain was just
different, and I just didn'twant her to go through that
unpacking or thatself-resentment Like I grew up,
just wanting to be able to focus.
I just wanted to be thepotential that everyone
supposedly could see in me, andjust the self-loathing that came
with that.
Why couldn't I just do this?
Why couldn't I just socializeat a house party?

(30:11):
Why can't I just be normal?
And that was my thoughtsgrowing up and I refused my
daughter to have thatinternalized loathing.
I don't think that that is anecessary life experience for
her.
So her pediatrician sentthrough her ADHD diagnosis and I
was like right, story time.
You know she's five.

(30:32):
Story time is such like a bigthing in our house.
I'm going to get a story whichwill be our conversation opener
and then we can talk a littlebit more about it.
And so I hop online and I waslooking at all these books for
kids about ADHD and every singleone of them used the acronym
ADHD either in the title or inthe book, or called it a

(30:52):
condition, or called it asuperpower, which you know, that
could be a whole nother.
Conversation, too, aboutothering.
There is definitely an otheringthat exists in neurodiversity
that needs to get snuffed outfast, in my opinion, and I just
I just couldn't find a bookbecause, like you know, I guess
this is that like autistic, youknow forever forward thinking.
But I'm like well, I'll readthis book to her and then my
daughter's gonna go mom, whatdoes adhd mean?

(31:14):
And I'm gonna go.
It's going to stand forattention deficit, hyperactivity
disorder.
And if she understands eitherany of those four words, two of
them are really negative, andit's not that there's an
attention deficit, it's anattention surplus that can't be
honed or can't be controlled tobe honed.
When it hones, my gosh, magicdoes happen, but there is costs

(31:37):
that come with that as well.
That's what I wanted and I wasso upset so I never had any
intentions of becoming.
I used to just make art forothers, just commission myself
out for others.
There was never any intentionof becoming an author or
illustrator.
I'm not the greatest withspelling and grammar, the

(31:57):
greatest with spelling andgrammar.
I do have single load dyslexia,so that makes things a little
tricky for me.
So that was a post-diagnosis,which that was just something
else.
I'm always just rushing, Ican't, I always spell things
wrong and I can't see mistakesbecause I'm just rushing in life
.
You know, I'm sitting theregoing the cat sat on the mat,

(32:17):
like really trying to look forthe mistakes and still not
seeing them.

Speaker 1 (32:21):
My wife has dysgraphia, so that's number
dyslexia, and she hasn't beenformally diagnosed with dyslexia
, but I believe there is apercentage there.
I myself very, very, veryreliant on spellcheck,
autocorrect, everything likethat.
You know the modern era oftelephones, but when I'm at work

(32:43):
and I'm messaging like on acomputer, I remember when I
first started night shift and Iwas messaging my wife, she was
like have you had a stroke?
Why are you talking like this?
And I've realized that I hadjust been relying on autocorrect
.

Speaker 2 (32:58):
You know when, like, an update comes of autocorrect
and you can feel the updatebecause it's not backing you the
way it should be and, likemessenger, get your game
together.
I need, I need you to cover mybases because things are not
looking like they should.

Speaker 1 (33:13):
I accidentally deleted my autocorrect.
Like brain, like you know howit memorizes certain words that
you say a lot.
Yeah, I accidentally deleted itonce and I remember for weeks I
was like I don't want tomessage anyone because I don't
want to have to go back andcorrect, duck back to fuck.
I was like it just seems liketoo much of an effort and I'm

(33:37):
not willing to give up saying it, but I don't want to correct it
no, I'm, yeah, I'm fine with it.

Speaker 2 (33:42):
Now I'm like this is ducking wild like in message, I
don't care anymore.
But yeah, so with with thatbook, and I was.
I just remember I was laying inbed and you know, um, just, I
was so frustrated.
I was just so frustrated andangry with the world that they
didn't have existing what Ineeded.

(34:03):
And and I and I was just like ifonly there was just a book that
just talked about it, just sosimply and and just made it make
sense, so simply like, justtalking about how, like your
brain's like a race car.
And because there was this one,there's this one question in
the assessment and the questionis something like you know, for
your child, like, does it feellike your child is run by a
motor or that cannot be stopped?

(34:25):
And it was just when I lookedat that question and I just it
really resonated.
I was like yes, and I feel thatquestion, like I, that was a
question in that questionnaire,because there's so many, like
you know, it's a yes or noanswer, but I to there's the
contextual amendment that I feelthat I need to add on, but just
that one, that was just the onethat I looked at and like

(34:46):
that's a yes or no answer andit's a yes and and so like that
just kind of really sat with meand I'm just laying in bed and I
was like 11 o'clock at nightand I'm like, if only this book
just existed, that just went.
Brains are like cars and theythey drive around tracks and

(35:08):
pick up information and thenbring it back.
But my brain is a race car,which it's still the same thing,
it's not different.
A car and a race car are stillgoing to do the same thing.
They're going to get you from Ato B.
Just one can go faster.
And that's just all I wanted todo.
And then it was almost like itjust all downloaded into my
brain.
Even the art style, like thatkind of real postmodern 1950s

(35:30):
art style.
It was just all there.
The cover was there.
I'd love to say there was allthis strategic planning, but it
was just all there in my head.
So it was like 11 o'clock atnight I got up, I quickly typed
the poem out into my notes in myphone and then I went to sleep
and then I woke up the nextmorning and it just consumed me
and I just parented the day inkind of autopilot, because it

(35:50):
was all I was thinking about.
As soon as the girls went tobed the next two nights, I just
started drawing.
I did not sleep and this isthat magic happens in
hyper-focus, but with the cost.
I didn't sleep, I didn't eat, Ididn't drink.
Like you know, I came out ofthis dehydrated, exhausted wreck
hydrated, exhausted, wrecked.
But I made this book in threedays and put it onto my
daughter's iPad and she loved it.

(36:10):
And then I showed it to myfriend and she's like you should
publish this.
And I was like no one else willget it.
And she's like just give it atry.
And then it made me realizethat, yeah, how long ago was
that?

Speaker 1 (36:24):
January so you've done three books in less than a
year.

Speaker 2 (36:28):
Oh, and you know the thing is in that true
neurodivergent multiple ideasthing going, I've got another
four sitting in my head.

Speaker 1 (36:35):
We are so, so similar .
You're a female, me.
This podcast started inFebruary and it was because I
felt that there was a gap andthere was a need for something
like this podcast and I couldn'tfind anything quite like it.
It's not specifically forneurodivergent parents, but it's
not not for neurodivergentparents.
I found so many resources andso many podcasts about being a

(37:00):
parent to kids with specialneeds or neurodivergent kids,
but it wasn't one specificallyfor parents, by parents, about
parents and our upbringings andhow that changes the way in
which we parent, and you know mydiagnosis and all of these
different things that justweren't talked about because
it's still quite a taboo topic.

Speaker 2 (37:19):
You know, mental health and especially in the
sense of parenting and and kindof owning up to struggling
people are scared thatcommunities will see them as bad
parents if they're not happyand healthy and fucking thriving
as parents yeah, and justexisting so naturally, like we
fight tooth and nail to get toschool on time every morning and

(37:42):
and like I do think that thatand that's what I really do love
about your podcast is that it'svalidating parents in that
sense of overwhelm.
I find so many parents.
They sit there and I don't knowif this is like going back to
what we were talking aboutbefore on how we were raised, to
repress, like repress ourfeelings, repress our thoughts,
repress our opinions.

(38:02):
That's the general consensus ofour generation, and so parents
are getting so overworked, soweathered down and to the point
where they're absolutely atbreaking point, where they blow
up and blow out and which is,you know, that's a sign of a
dysregulated person.
But we've, we've been taughtall our life and now we've got

(38:24):
to fight against that naturalurge to go.
Hey, actually I'm reallyoverwhelmed today.
My cup is empty today.
So can we treat me kinder today?
You know we we allow that spacefor our kids so much.
But it is actually amazing andsomething I have been really
trying to put into practicelately with my girls, where I'm
like guys, like, hey, girls, mymommy's cup's feeling a little

(38:46):
bit empty today.
So if we could have a littlebit of a gentler day today, I
would really appreciate that.
Because we talk about crystalsin cups, I don't know Like.
I guess normally you put waterin cups, but if you've met the
girls, crystals are a highfactor in our house.
So we have crystal cups Awesomeand my cup sometimes, you know,
and my cup runs out of crystals.

(39:07):
And I always thought that, likewhen I first started telling the
girls, I was so scared thatthey thought I would be lesser
than Mom's burnt out again.
Mom's crystals are missingagain.
But in turn it's given mydaughters more voice too, where
I'll have my elders, my elderscame out the other day and she's
like Mama, I'm feeling a bitdelicate today.
I'm like, oh, delicate's areally good describing word.
She's like, yeah, my crystalsare just very, very breakable

(39:30):
today and I was like, okay, well, you've really let me know in
those words what you're trulyfeeling on the inside and you
know, I'm just such a believerin communicating through
feelings and emotions over whatshould be and what we're
supposed to be.

Speaker 1 (39:43):
Yeah, and it's also finding what works for you.
Yeah, and it's also findingwhat works for you.
Both my wife and I don't dowell with like person-to-person
confrontation.
We instantly get our backs up,we get backed into a corner,
which causes us to argue and sayreally, really hurtful things.
That's just how we, you know,that's our defense mechanism,

(40:04):
that's our go-to.

Speaker 2 (40:06):
Yeah, it's a protective behavior.

Speaker 1 (40:08):
Yeah.
So it's like I don't want todeal with this.
I'm in fight, flight freeze,fawn, fuck around.
I can't remember the rest ofthem, but I'm very freeze.
But I get to a point where I'vefrozen for a bit.
I haven't taken in what hasbeen said to me properly, apart
from the negative things.
I feel defensive now and I'mfucking angry and it's go time.

(40:31):
We're like we're having anargument now and that's not
conducive.
That's not healthy.
So my wife and I now, when wehave problems with each other,
we text it.
Yeah, we text it, and so manypeople outside of our
relationship and knowing ourdynamic would be like that's not
fucking healthy.
You should be able to talk toyour wife face to face.
It's like no, that's not how itworks.
We're different to you andtexting works Like.

(40:56):
This morning I asked her to getup to the kids at six o'clock.
I have work tonight.
My wife has two jobs today andshe messaged me and was like hey
, I'm like starting to getreally angry at you asking me to
get up to the kids at six whenI've got two jobs today and
you're working tonight.
You can sleep during the day,even though I have plans during
the day, et cetera.
It's still technically my sleeptime, but I was like, okay,

(41:17):
yeah, I understand that.
I'm sorry, but if she had saidthat to my face it would have
ended in a big argument.

Speaker 2 (41:24):
Yeah, and just looping right back to that.
Well, that's, that's not okay,that's not, that's not what we
should do in getting thatfeedback and you're like but
this is what works and this ishow we're, this is how we
function.
Because, yeah, like you know,at the end of the day, where
there is um, you know,neurodiversity present and

(41:44):
that's a different neurotype, socriticism hits differently and
we do react to criticism sodifferently.
And you know, immediately, asyou're describing that, I'm like
yeah, well, you've gone into astate of RSD, and when we go
into RSD, we go into protectivemode.
You know whether that is toburn a bridge so that way they
can't access you.
That's what we will do in thatmoment.
It's not a conscious choice,it's a protective choice.

(42:08):
And then afterwards we've got tothen go with the.
You know like the shame or theembarrassment or that.
You know bridge repairing andstuff, and that means control.
Yeah, is that healthy?
Like you know where, if youit's all conveyed in text and
you're like right, you receivethat text, you can sit there.
The emotion has been removedfrom the text because it's just
the word, so you're justpresented with the facts of her

(42:30):
feelings and then you canprocess, that you can process
your initial surge of rsd.
That you know.
I know that, like I get if Iread something, or you know
someone has written somethingthat like I don't love, and I
sit there and I process that andit hurts, like it, it
physically hurts.
And this is another thing thatpeople are like, yeah, words
hurt but you get over it.
And it's like, no, when youexperience RSD, it physically

(42:53):
hurts, like your body physicallyhurts from this.
This is like when they say it'slike a knife in your back.
It's like a knife in your back.
There's a physical pain there.
And to be able to process thatand then not have to deal with
the pain of the aftermath aswell, which then creates this
like self-loathing, like why amI always so shit?
Why am I always so mean?

(43:13):
Why do I always have tooverreact to a situation?
Why am I this, why am I that?
And that's not healthy, that'snot normal Working to us and the
way we should and ourrelationship dynamic.
We should and our relationshipdynamic um, it's the same thing.
For, like my partner and I, heused to get so frustrated with
me because when I would get intomy state of overwhelm I'm

(43:35):
someone who does get overwhelmedreally easy, and when I
overwhelm I go almost non-verbalshutdown this is the only way I
can describe it like I canstill talk, but I tell you it's,
it's a labor to go autopilot.

Speaker 1 (43:48):
Yeah, it's that absolute bare minimum.
I'm exactly the same.

Speaker 2 (43:53):
Yeah, and the less I would engage was, the more I was
protecting myself, but the moreof frustrate my partner.
Because he's like I just wantto solve this problem, like
let's just solve this problem.
What's going on?
Like, what are you stressedabout?
And like I'm like, oh, that'sadding to my stress now and and
where we've taken this learningthing, and he's like he's done
amazing work on himself.
We've done amazing work in ourrelationship too.

(44:13):
We're so chill in our 30s nowand he sees.
He sees when I'm in a state ofoverwhelm, and so now he knows
that what I need is space.
What I need is to not be engagedwith.
He'll take the lead, he takesthe front.
He'll grab the girls, go downto shops, get two or three of my
favorite meals and bring themhome.
Just have them there in thefridge for when I'm starting to

(44:34):
look for food, which is so muchmore help than him sitting down
going.
What do we need?
How do we need to solve this?
Why are you stressed?
What's stressing you out?
And where people are like, well, he's not addressing what's
upset with you at all.
That's not good, that's nothealthy, because you need to
talk out what's upsetting youwhere for me I don't actually

(44:54):
because I physically can't I doneed to retract into my shell,
process this and then I can comeback out.

Speaker 1 (45:01):
Yeah, it's not only that, but you also need to
unjumble your perception of itall and figure out how you're
going to word everythingdelicately and and clearly and
concisely.
If I do it just verbally, offthe cuff, without thinking about
it, as I said, I'm onlyretaining like maybe 10 of
what's being said to me, and therest is just complete white
noise.
While I'm dealing with athousand thoughts going through

(45:23):
my head, all related to this,but also related to the trauma I
suffered growing up and likejust once I hit that freeze.
All of it just compounds andI'm like fuck, like you're just
a piece of shit, yeah yeah, andyou're like here, you are
failing again.
Like you know that internalnarrative here we go.

Speaker 2 (45:43):
Yep, here we go.
You do you, you light this oneup.
You do you, you, yeah, lightthis one up.
It's not worth it.

Speaker 1 (45:51):
So we message and even if after she messages, I
will be like I honour yourfeelings, I respect what you
have sent me.
Just give me a little bit oftime to figure out how I'm going
to reply.

Speaker 2 (46:03):
Yep, and I love that.
And you know this is stuff thatis a conscious learning for us.
You know, our natural reactionis the first one, due to
everything like the way we'reraised and our and our brain
type like, but so that thatconscious work is huge for us.
And one thing I have learnedtoo, and I'm sure that you found
it too, is that one thingthat's always got me in trouble

(46:26):
is like, so obviously, like I dotalk a lot about emotions and
stuff, but for me, emotions andfacts really can sit in two
different camps.
So if something's factual, well, a fact is a fact.
And that's kind of my full stopwhere I've like always told how
blunt I am, how you like, how,if something, if I say like, if
something's a fact, I'll be like, oh well, x, y, z, and people

(46:46):
are like whoa, that is so harsh.
I'm not being harsh, it's notemotional, I'm not saying it to
be mean or anything.
And so there's learning how toreign that correctly and still
be authentically yourself.

Speaker 1 (47:00):
Yeah, that's something.
I'm still trying to learn everyday.
I'm still very much a peoplepleaser.

Speaker 2 (47:05):
Yeah, which, yeah, I do still very much a people
pleaser, yeah, which, yeah, I do.
That's, yeah, something that Ihaven't fully finished unpacking
myself yet on how to beauthentically me but convey
facts without it being seen asharsh for neurotypical people.

Speaker 1 (47:21):
Yeah, yeah, that's it .
So the the books that you'vewritten, um, yes, you see,
you've got three.
You've got four more in thebarrel.
I understand that you are nowconsidered a best-selling author
and illustrator.
First of all, congratulations,thank you.
It's absolutely amazing and Ilove that.
I think you followed me, or Ifollowed you from Keiko.

Speaker 2 (47:46):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (47:47):
Yeah, so Jo and I had our episode together and and
then, yeah, I was looking atyour stuff and I think I've
talked about it on podcastepisodes before, but my wife and
I also wrote a book duringCOVID lockdown and, just a
little exclusive, nellie's goingto be the illustrator of our
book, which is super fuckingcool yeah.

(48:07):
I mean, it was naturally goingto happen that we were going to
record an episode together, butthere's also a continuing
friendship and partnership whichI'm incredibly excited about.

Speaker 2 (48:18):
Yeah, it is.
I think this is another one ofthose things too.
This is one of the amazingsides of having a neurodivergent
brain or a different brain isthat when you hear these, like
we're creative, we're naturallycreative and I would love to see
the diagnostic criteria insteadof going into a deficit base to
look at the strengths and stuff.
And you know, creativity.
I am that cliche person of justbeing a visual, talking myself

(48:42):
down, of being a visual artist,but creativity comes out in so
many ways, in so many careerpaths, in so many forms and when
many career paths in so manyforms.
And when we did talk, when youdid kindly share your manuscript
with me I'm definitely someonelike I really live by the saying
inspired people, inspiredpeople, inspired people, inspire
people, which is, I think, justone of those like

(49:03):
neurodivergent things wheresomeone comes with an idea and
you're like, oh my gosh, oh mygosh, and then it just like
levels up and there's thisexcitement and this fervor and
when I did read your manuscriptI was like, wow, this is really
cool, I love this project, thisis so amazing.
And then I think I kind of justinfo dumped all the sharing
that I could for you on on myjourney because I'm you know,
I'm just, I'm someone who justgenuinely wants to see other

(49:27):
people succeed in their dreamsor in their goals or their
feelings, whatever they are.
The tall poppy syndrome thatexists is wild and it just
doesn't make sense to me.
Because there's so many of usin the world, there is literally
room for everybody.
I just don't understand whyeveryone is so gated Me, me, me,
everybody.

(49:51):
I just don't understand whyeveryone is so gated yeah, which
, unfortunately, is quiteintense in the literature or
authoring industry and whetherit's that, you know, pda or
whatever it is, but you know,the more I was told that I
wouldn't make it as an author orillustrator or I wouldn't do
anything, just kind of, was justthat.
Well, I'll find out my way then, and I've studied so much and

(50:15):
learned so much and you knowthere was so much trial and
error and it's all behind thesepaywalls where people are like,
oh, you know, for $400 you cando my course and oh fine, if
people are going to do thingslike that, I'm going to record
my experience and put it onYouTube for free and just stop
gatekeeping.

Speaker 1 (50:36):
And yeah, I think, I think it's a and I'm not going
to generalize and say it's likea 50, 50 split in the world, but
you know, I think the majorityof society is run by by finances
, you know, by money.
Yeah, we need well,unfortunately, we need money to
survive and a lot of peoplethink, well, why would I help
someone else when they're goingto take money that I could be

(50:58):
making for myself, whereas us inthe neurodivergent community
are like, let's fucking help ifwe can make someone else happy
with knowledge that we possessor skills that we possess.
Make them happy, it's fuckinghard, it's fucking hard.

Speaker 2 (51:15):
No, that's it and that's you know.
If anything, if you'regatekeeping, I think that just
goes to show how insecure youare, or maybe how fragile your
product is or yourself is, andthat's probably something that
you need to sit with.
So, but then also going back toJoe and Keiko, they're in
another amazing story and so ifanyone does listen to my episode

(51:38):
, do go back and listen to Joe'sepisode.
I, uh, joe and Keiko Fidgets.
They are the most amazing,coolest people.
I actually met Joe at an expoat an ADHD expo, and it was my
first ever expo, and I wasoverwhelmed, I was not okay.
I turned up like an hour lateand for someone who's exhibiting
shouldn't turn up an hour late,um so, and I was just this mess

(52:02):
and then just Jo came up andshe put one of the caterpillar
necklaces just around my neck.
I was like kind of, just likeyou know how the queen puts the
medals on the knights, she kindof just came up and clipped one
of them.
Yes, one of them.

Speaker 1 (52:12):
From literally where I wear it all the time.

Speaker 2 (52:14):
My gosh.
Well, we've got like rations onit at the moment because my
girls share it.
I need to do a Christmas orderof some more fidgets and stuff
and I'm getting some more ofthem, but yeah, and so I just
sat there and it was just, youknow, with my breaths and
everything, and then at the endof the day, jo's like that did
not leave your hand.
That was the biggest complimentand I'm like, thank you so much

(52:36):
.
Yeah, she's awesome.
Yeah, I was so grateful to her.

Speaker 1 (52:40):
Her and I have discussed.
She was wanting to pick mybrain about tattoo expos and if
I think Keiko would be a goodfit for tattoo expos and I was
like fuck yeah, it would be.
I'm like I've got this theorythat the body modification
community is overwhelminglyundiagnosed autistic, because

(53:04):
tattooing in any form of bodymodification is essentially like
an aesthetic masking.
In my opinion, it's makingyourself look the way you want
to look.

Speaker 2 (53:13):
Yes, yeah.

Speaker 1 (53:13):
Yeah, so I was like straight away.
I think fidgets that you canhold in your hand would do
incredibly well at tattoo expos,because people like to take
their mind off the pain.

Speaker 2 (53:25):
I agree with that a lot, and then also too, like you
know, another really goodindicator that there would be a
lot of neurodivergent people intattoo shops and at tattoo expos
is that you can't be touched.
I don't like to be touched.
It's really disgusting foranyone to touch me or hug me or
anything.
But I can sit eight hours for atattoo.
That's not painful.

Speaker 1 (53:46):
Yeah, that's fine you know, yeah, and the fact that
you know I'll say self-harm, butnot to an extreme extent Like
self-harm, is pretty massive inthe neurodivergent community
because it's sensory play, youknow, it's extreme sensory input
to deal with something that'sinternalised, kind of thing.

(54:07):
So the fact that a lot ofpeople that are into tattoos
state that getting tattooed istheir therapy is pretty telling
to me.

Speaker 2 (54:17):
Yeah, For someone who cries if her hair is in too
tight of a ponytail.
But I have sat.
Both my tops of my feet aretattooed and I sat five hours
each foot and it hurt, I'm notgoing to lie, but I sat it where
I've seen some other people'sexamples of trying to sit for a
foot tattoo and the lines areshaky where I was able to just

(54:38):
sit, Just chill.
Yeah, Just hang out.

Speaker 1 (54:41):
Yeah, so you are also a very accomplished former
tattoo artist as well.
Just before we wrap up, I dofeel like I want to honor this
part of your life.
Do you want to tell me a littlebit about that?

Speaker 2 (54:52):
Yeah, actually I think this is a really, really
cool thing to talk about,because I think that I'm going
to probably go fast on this,because this is something that
has been a really recent lessonfor me.
But I find with neurodivergentpeople that and I know that like
well, I've definitely kind ofsat more in the neurodiversity
but than as a parent, butthere's so just so much to say.
But with with that, the there'sso much job changes.

(55:14):
I find particularly people withADHD or um, or who are
neurodivergent, and there's justso many different jobs and so
then our resumes look like atoilet paper roll, they're that
long, and there's this almostlike once again, shame or guilt.
Like here's me, I can't stickto a job, I can't do this, I

(55:37):
can't do that.
I've changed so many careers.
I've changed so many industries.
I've been a tattoo artist, I'vebeen an arts hub coordinator.
Now I work at home for myself.
Like you know, there's a commonthread to my art style.
But and then, trust me, likeI've been an optical assistant,
I was going to go to uni andbecome a optometrist.
I was doing my masters ofoptics in my early 20s.
Because I don't know why, Ijust I don't know, but that's a

(56:01):
whole nother thing to unpack.
You know, I've been a piercerbefore, I was a tattooist and
I've got all piercing scars.
I've gotten pretty well I'veonly got my ears pierced now but
I've got all the like scars.
Like I was like a trial personfor when the dermals came to
Australia and things and they'relike where should we try all
the dermal?
I'm like near my eye andthey're like that's dangerous.
I'm like let's give it a go.

(56:21):
And then yeah, so then I haveone of those like tear style
dermals and stuff, but now I'vegot nothing because that fads
over for me I guess.

Speaker 1 (56:30):
Yeah, I don't think it'll ever be over for me.

Speaker 2 (56:34):
And it's just one of those things that there is just
so much shame in that.
But if anyone's listening and Icould ever reframe anything one
of the last times I applied fora job and I gave my resume over
, I've had a really big what Icall a critical burnout and I
couldn't work for anyone butmyself now.
But the last job that I appliedfor I showed it, I showed my

(56:56):
resume and I was like I knowI've done a lot of, like
different jobs and stuff andthis person had only done that
one job in their life and thenthey'd started a business from
the job that they've been doingand they looked at my resume and
they're like, wow, from the jobthat they've been doing.
And they looked at my resumeand they're like, wow, look at
this.
Like, look at how much lifeyou've lived, look at how much
life you've experienced in thisresume and all the different
things you've been able to try.

(57:17):
And I was like you know it wasjust, it was a reframe for me
and it was nice because, yeah,like I find particularly like,
in my opinion, ADHD is they live10 lives, because you want to
try everything, everything'sexciting, everything's new,
everything's you know.
We want to experience thedopamine from it.
So, yeah, I have.

(57:37):
I've had quite a plethora ofcareers but there has always
been that common thread, asidefrom the optometry.
But yeah, I think I got threeyears in and I was sitting in
with an optometrist and I waslike falling asleep as they're
doing the one or two, one or twoand I'm like, what am I doing?
That's when I left my degree,but yeah, so it was fun.

(58:02):
With the tattooing I did.
I love creating art for people.
There is definitely a dopaminein um being that bridge for
people who have this amazingidea in their head but then they
are limited by their body tolike achieve it.
So there's always been thatreward for me.
So, putting on tattoos, pinupswere my thing.
I loved doing pinups.

(58:23):
They were like what I was knownfor.

Speaker 1 (58:25):
And not only known for but published about.
Yeah, what was that one stage.
You were the best pin-uptattooist in Australia correct,
brisbane.
Okay, smaller scale, still agreater cause.

Speaker 2 (58:41):
Brisbane Award and, like you know, upcoming
Apprentice and things like that,which was really cool.
Um, and a big, you know, a bigcompliment, but I'd like the,
but then also the industry.
The industry is once againanother very gatekeepy industry
which I didn't like and it kindof just like didn't sit great
with me.
It was all about like who youknow and you know.

(59:02):
These tattooists are walkingaround acting like rock stars
and uh, there's also also likethis massive culture of rules
surrounding tattoos.

Speaker 1 (59:11):
You know, you have to earn your stripes and things
like that, and I very, very muchbought into that throughout my
he's in early 30s.
But it's, you know, since theautism diagnosis and onwards,
where I've, you know, questioneda lot of the things that I
thought were correct, like moralthings.
I realized, realized, you know,I don't give a fuck if someone
else has their face tattooed andno other tattoos.

(59:32):
Like, how does that affect me?
Just like if someone would liketo be called they, them, or if
someone is transitioning totrans male or trans female or
non-binary, or whatever have youit's what other people do with
their lives.
Has fuck all to do with me?
Yes, if it does have anythingto do with me, I'll be as
supportive as I can.

Speaker 2 (59:53):
Yeah, and that's it.
And there was, there was Idon't know.
I feel like it's a lot betternow.
I probably was a little bit tooearly for my time.
Unfortunately, it was very whenI was doing my apprenticeship,
because I went pretty much fromschool into an apprenticeship.
It was still very bikey,dominant, where I feel like it's
sitting.
A lot more art, more, more,more.

(01:00:13):
Yeah, yeah, definitely there's.
You know, you've got like theolder school, like the older
style or older generationtattooers that are complaining
oh, there's a tattoo shop onevery corner and blah, blah,
blah.
But I'm once again, I'm onceagain in the corner where not
everyone can tattoo the same.
There could be a tattoo shop onevery corner, but if your art
is the art that people want,they're going to come to you,
and if you're not a jerk whenthey come in, they're going to

(01:00:35):
come to you Like it's yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:00:37):
I think there's that kind of difference between
tattoo shops and tattooboutiques.

Speaker 2 (01:00:42):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
And then, yeah too, there wasthat other thing Like, yeah,
definitely.
And then, yeah too, there wasthat other thing Like I remember
I was just I think I told you Iwas tattooing this dragon on
someone's back and it was just.
I literally have these likelittle epiphany moments.
I was tattooing and I'm like Idon't want to touch people
anymore, I don't like touchingpeople, and so I'm like, well,

(01:01:04):
it's kind of hard, you know,being a tattooist, and it's like
the skin is where I'm doing myart form, but like it was the
designing and sending thedesigns through, which was
always like my favorite part andthe most exciting part, and
then the completed tattoo, whenthey're looking in the mirror
and they're like oh my gosh, Ilove it so much and you're like
yes, cool, I nailed it likethat's that?
like obviously, like you know,cream.

Speaker 1 (01:01:23):
Literally every part of tattooing, apart from
touching them, was your favorite.

Speaker 2 (01:01:26):
If I could just like blank that out of my life, which
is, like you know, all thelabor and and it was just all
that stuff.
Like you know, there was somany tattooers that just
wouldn't design up or they'd berushing to complete the design
as someone's walking in the door.
I'm like it just doesn't seemlike you're enthused or
authentic.
And like you know don't get mewrong Like I get free hand and
you know there's been timeswhere you know you fill in the

(01:01:47):
free hand and and and stuff, butI don't know there was just,
there was just a to the industry, that just a bit of an.
I didn't match and I'm notsaying that the industry's wrong
.
I'm just saying I didn't matchthe industry and I yeah, I can't
get my head around the likelittle, totally fair.

Speaker 1 (01:02:05):
thank you for sharing that with me.
That was.
That was more for than thelisteners.
I wanted to know more about itbecause we talked a little bit
about it earlier, so I reckonthat's probably about time we
wrap up.
Just before we do so, my brainis a race car, my body has a
bubble, my feelings are waves.
Where can people get them?

Speaker 2 (01:02:24):
So I've got my Etsy, which is linked to all my
socials, which is where I sellmy books, which is great for
Australia.
So if you're an Australianlistener because if I post them,
then I get to like, make it allpretty and I add some like
little activity sheets.
So for every book that I write,I make two free activities just
to make myself feel like I'mbeing kind and helping and

(01:02:46):
something.
I don't know.
There's more there, but I getto do that.
It is also on Amazon, which isgreat for worldwide, because
Australia Post is just murderingsmall businesses at the moment
and I won't say any moreotherwise.

Speaker 1 (01:03:02):
So as far as percentages and how much money
you earn off it, etsy would bethe place to get them correct.

Speaker 2 (01:03:09):
Yeah, almost earlier.

Speaker 1 (01:03:11):
I ordered your three books about half an hour ago off
Etsy, so can't wait for you tosend them out.
I've been meaning to, becausethere's only so many times I can
watch you read them out onTikTok for free before I start
to feel guilty.

Speaker 2 (01:03:22):
That's another thing.
People are like you don't needto book out on socials the fuck
I do.
Well, like you don't read yourbook out on socials the fuck I
do my platform.
So, yes, you can watch it forfree on my YouTube or TikTok or
Instagram.
Youtube will be obviously theeasiest because I don't put
anything else on there otherthan something actively.
If you are an aspiring author,I do have a half an hour video

(01:03:45):
about my mindset when it comesto writing a book and what I
think contributed to the successof my book, or successes of my
books.
I should say.
So that's all there on myYouTube.
Also, my inbox is always open,as Matt knows.
Ask a question, you'll get that, plus the answer of what I
think your next questions willbe as well.

(01:04:05):
I do really want to seeeveryone succeed and yeah, and.
I do have more books coming outin the works, which we'll talk
about.
You know other like lifeexperiences and feelings,
obviously like with the my Brainis a Race Car, it's just about
accommodations for aneurodivergent brain.
My Body has a Bubble is justtalking about personal space
from a neurodivergentperspective, because I find that

(01:04:27):
things that aren't literal orphysical can be sometimes really
hard to understand as kids.
And then my Feelings for Wavesis actually a book about
rejection-sensitive dysphoria,or RSD, what we were talking
about before and I don't thinkthat there is a book
specifically dedicated to RSD achildren's book and obviously I
don't use any of those acronyms,I make sure I never use any
clinical words it's all aboutrelatable feelings in words that

(01:04:50):
a five-year-old wouldunderstand without happening to
ask questions.

Speaker 1 (01:04:54):
Perfect, I'll be sure to post the links to everything
.
So anyone listening, please gopick up the books.
I'm excited to get them in myhot little hands so I can read
them to my kids.

Speaker 2 (01:05:04):
Yeah, I'm going to post them this afternoon.

Speaker 1 (01:05:06):
Awesome, awesome, awesome.
Well, thank you so much, nell,for joining me today.
Great conversation and I'mincredibly excited to continue
working together.
We'll have to do a catch-upepisode down the track when
we're getting ready to release.

Speaker 2 (01:05:22):
Yes, yeah, a whole new chat, because, yeah,
definitely a really good parentbook.

Speaker 1 (01:05:28):
Thank you, I really appreciate it not late, I'm
really all right awesome.
Enjoy your day, mate.

Speaker 2 (01:05:33):
Thank you again thank you so much bye, all right cool
.