June 4, 2024 • 42 mins
Welcome to Episode 28 of Touched Out! A Mental Health Podcast for Parents.
In this episode, we explore the power of personal stories in sparking movements for change. Join us as we chat with Sean, the founder of the Shaka Project, who transformed his mental health journey into a mission to support men worldwide.
From Gym Owner to Mental Health Advocate
Sean shares his journey from being a gym owner in Ballarat and Bendigo to founding a charity that uses conversation-starting t-shirts to promote mental health awareness. Learn how his move to Torquay and his dedication to his daughters shaped his advocacy work.
Personal Struggles and the 'Bro Ball Effect'
Sean opens up about his father's struggle with depression and his own battles with anxiety and depression. He discusses the 'bro ball effect,' highlighting how early and open conversations about mental health can lead to life-saving discussions.
The Cultural Crisis: Drinking, Drugs, and Bloke Banter
We delve into the cultural factors affecting young men's mental health, including issues like drinking, drugs, gambling, and "bloke banter." Sean emphasizes the importance of grassroots efforts and everyday conversations in preventing suicide.
The Shaka Project's Mission and Future
As Sean prepares for the International Suicide Prevention Conference in Bangkok, he shares how you can support the Shaka Project. Follow them on Instagram, visit their website, and consider purchasing their empowering merchandise to join the movement.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Acknowledgement (00:01):
We would like to acknowledge the traditional
custodians of this land.
We pay our respects to theElders past, present and
emerging, for they hold thememories, the traditions and the
culture of the Aboriginal andTorres Strait Islander people
across the nation.
Warning this podcast containsexplicit language and discusses
(00:22):
sensitive topics related tomental health childhood trauma,
birth trauma, abuse, miscarriageand suicide.
Listener discretion is advised.
If you find these subjectsdistressing or triggering, we
recommend taking caution andconsidering whether to proceed
with listening.
If you or someone you know isstruggling, please reach out to
a mental health professional ora trusted individual for support
(00:43):
.
Your wellbeing is our priority.
Carter (00:46):
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Touched
Out podcast.
Today I chat with Sean, thefounder of the Shaka Project,
who took his own experienceswith mental health and turned
them into a mission to supportmen everywhere.
From his journey as a gym ownerin Ballarat and Bendigo to
establishing a charity that usesconversation starting t-shirts,
sean shares his compellingstory of passion, resilience and
(01:11):
community building.
Discover how his livedexperience, mixed with his
dedication to his daughters,shaped his approach to mental
health advocacy.
Speaker 4 (01:17):
So take a breath from everything right here and Take
some time.
It's alright, you'll be fineafter touch of a cat.
(01:40):
Take all night, you'll be fine,it's all right.
The Touchdown Podcast.
Carter (01:57):
Today we've got Sean.
Sean is the founder of theShaka Project, a men's mental
health charity.
Thank you for joining me.
You've flown in from to Bangkoklast night and it's 20 past six
where you are now, so I reallyappreciate you jumping on to
have a chat with me.
How are you going?
Sean (02:16):
Thank you so much for having me, matt.
I really appreciate it.
I'm going well.
I'm a little bit tired, it'sbeen a pretty big 24 hours, but
I'm going well.
I'm over here for theInternational Suicide Prevention
Conference, so it's a prettyimportant week, with it being a
pretty important month.
So, yeah, looking forward tothe week over here and learning,
hopefully, some preventativeskills for Australia.
Carter (02:38):
Awesome, that's great.
So why don't we start off byyou telling me a little bit
about yourself and a little bitabout your personal life and
your history?
Sean (02:46):
Yeah, absolutely so.
I was born in Ballarat inVictoria.
I lived there for about 29years and I've only recently
moved down to Torquay, just downthe surf coast near Geelong.
There I'm a father.
So I've got a 10-year-old and asix-year-old little girl and
they're sort of well of.
They are my entire life.
They're my best friends and Ilove them dearly and I
(03:08):
essentially, if I'm not doingstuff with the chakra and
working and stuff like that, I'mspending as much time as I
possibly can with them,especially my daughter, and you
know I love footy, love to knowI'm an AFL fan, love my sport,
love my gym and working out andrunning and stuff like that too.
So I suppose I'm a reasonablyboring dad.
I just have that little bit ofa passion for mental health,
(03:31):
especially mental health, andpassion for people as well.
Carter (03:35):
Awesome.
So you're a Ballarat boy, I'm aBendigo boy.
Sean (03:39):
Oh, there we go, you're a rock one Springfield and
Shelbyville.
That's what it is.
Yeah, I think it's probablydied down now, but no, I'm born
there, born and raised and, yeah, moved down to the coast last
year so I spent a bit of time inBendigo.
I actually had a gym in Bendigofor about two years, so I
worked there for quite a while.
But, yeah, bailed out for themajority of it, but down to the
beach now and couldn, which ismuch nicer.
Carter (04:01):
Yeah, riff and my brother and his family just
moved to Anglesey, so, yeah yeah, around about the same area
down on the great ocean roadthere.
Yeah, great spot, great stop.
Yeah, no, it's beautiful,awesome I.
I, before we started recording,I wanted to make sure that it
was fresh in my mind andeverything like that, so I made
(04:22):
sure I didn't do too muchresearch, because I want to
learn from you instead of fromwords.
I'm ADHD, so that's how I liketo do things.
So why don't you run me throughhow the Shaka Project was born?
What's the history there?
Sean (04:37):
Yeah, so I suppose it was born from when I, before I had
the Shaka Project, I was a gymowner, I was a personal trainer,
I had a couple of gyms inBallarat and that one in
Beddingo as well, and throughoutthe time I was doing that for
about 14 years and throughoutthe time, I see, mental health
was a really big part of my lifesince the age of 15.
I can go into that a little bitlater as well, but when I
(05:03):
started to run my own businessesand really want to sort of make
a bit of an impact, everysingle time I do maybe a
fundraiser or any sort of event,I'd make sure that I do it for
mental health, especially men'smental health.
I was always very passionateabout it and I suppose where the
Shaka came from is I reallywanted to make a personal impact
.
So I thought there was a bit ofa gap there when it came to how
we can actually make a personalimpact on somebody's mental
(05:24):
health.
There was an event that Iraised around $10,000 to $12,000
.
It was a 24-hour treadmillchallenge.
So we had all these people comeinto my gym, ran on the
treadmill for 24 hours.
It was exhausting, it wasunbelievably tiring and an
emotional experience, and wewere able to raise a fair bit of
money and when we donated thismoney we raised about $10,000 or
(05:48):
$11,000.
We got a really generic emailback from this charity.
It's one of the big fourcharities.
I won't mention who it is, butit was a really generic email
that essentially just saidthanks for your donation and it
sort of really rubbed me out thewrong way a little bit.
I'm like I really wanted to beable to make a personal impact
and see what this could actuallydo.
This funding could do so.
(06:09):
From there I just thought,right, what can I do to make a
personal impact?
I'm very big on.
You know, if you're passionateabout something, make it your
life and make it something thatyou can actually make impactful
moments on other people's livesas well.
So the idea was to start at-shirt brand and the idea
(06:31):
behind using the t-shirts wasthat we would put a permission
slip or some sort ofacknowledgement that I have
empathy, I have understandingfor mental health.
I'll put it on a t-shirt andthat's going to allow you to
open up and talk to me.
It's a conversation starter and, you know, if we can encourage
a conversation, ignite aconversation, then maybe, and
(06:52):
just maybe, we can start apositive conversation around,
especially mental health andsuicide prevention, and we can.
We can change some lives.
So that was the idea.
It was a very, very small idea,a bit of a side passion.
I remember pumping $1,500 of mysavings into these T-shirts and
singlets and my partner at thetime was not happy with me at
(07:13):
all because we were away onholidays at the time in Cairns
and obviously trying to have agood time.
I had to be pretty strict withmoney because I just put it into
all these T-shirts and singlets.
So I launched that and prettyquickly it became evident that
this is something that Australiareally connected to.
It was something that Australiareally wanted and, I think,
(07:34):
needed as well.
We were.
You know, within 24 hours oflaunch all the t-shirts and
singlets were sold out, went,you know, quite viral.
So the Facebook post, you know,had like 10,000 shares from all
over Australia.
We had orders from interstate,from international.
At this point I had no idea evenhow to send a T-shirt in the
mail.
You know, when this order camethrough from New South Wales,
(07:56):
I'm like what do we do here?
How do I do this?
I just assumed that people fromBallarat would buy it and I
could just go drop it off.
So would buy it and I couldjust go drop it off.
So it went pretty crazy for thefirst month or so.
And once I saw this again, I sawthat there's a really big want
for this and need for this.
So I essentially just doubleddown and what was a passion
project quickly became somethingthat I was working on every
(08:21):
single day.
I still have the gym, so I wasstill a personal trainer.
And then COVID hit.
And once COVID hit, it was wehad to shut the gyms for about
13 months, which was pretty hardbut slight blessing in disguise
, because it gave me more timeto work on the Shaka project.
And once we reopened and openedup the gyms again, I sort of
walked into the gyms and thoughtyou know, this isn't my passion
(08:43):
anymore.
I could sort of take it out ofmy life for the better and I
decided to sort of chase it fulltime.
So five years on, here we are.
That's my full-time positionnow, full-time gig, and I'm
extremely lucky.
I get to travel the world andspeak to some amazing people
about suicide prevention, notonly in Australia but around the
world, in what we can do tohelp people, how we can prevent
(09:05):
suicide and what we can do tochange the cultures around
mental health, suicideprevention, drugs, alcohol, all
these different things as well,just to essentially change those
statistics, especially backhome in Australia.
Carter (09:18):
Yeah, beautiful, it's a great story and it's not
entirely removed from my ownstory.
Essentially, the same thingsthat you've just said is why
this podcast was birthed Fordifferent reasons on surface
level, but underneath the water,it was just to be the change
that I want to see in the worldand help people start those
(09:40):
conversations, especially thereally hard conversations, the
ones that make peopleuncomfortable, the ones that are
still stigmatized to this day.
I want to make sure that I canprovide this platform and this
just safe space where peoplecould just essentially trauma
dump.
It's like therapy without itbeing therapy.
So it's awesome that you'vetaken on that role and taken on
(10:03):
that responsibility.
It's amazing to see so manypeople that are coming to the
party now, especially with yourbrand.
It is a conversation starter,but it's there for people who
aren't necessarily ready to talkabout their own journeys but
are willing to project that theysupport the conversations and
(10:24):
everything like that.
So it's massive, massive stepsin the right direction.
Sean (10:29):
Yeah, I think it's really important as well.
I was actually talking tosomeone was it a dinner on
Friday night back in Geelong?
And a guy asked me he was verymuch into business, growth and
stuff and he said what do yousell, what's your charity's
purpose and what do you actuallysell?
And a lot of companies likethis will say, all right, we
(10:49):
sell the T-shirts, we sell this,we sell that.
But I think a really importantthing to me personally is that
we sell a community and aconversation.
That's it.
And community is something thateverybody wants to be a part of
.
Now, whether that be a podcastcommunity, you might have a set
amount of listeners that listento you every single episode.
That's your community andthat's more powerful than
(11:10):
absolutely anything.
Those guys that listen, theylove that.
They're a part of yourcommunity.
So the same thing with theShackle Project.
As soon as someone either buys at-shirt or shares a post or
comments on a post or sends us amessage or you know, we jump on
a podcast with them, werecommend them into the, the
community, and you know when,when you're part of something,
(11:31):
it just makes you feel a bitbetter too.
So that's the big thing withwith me personally is that I
want to be able to just welcomeas many people as you possibly
can into the community and,every now and then, triple that
message, that that says, hey,you know, if you're struggling,
it's okay to talk about it, it'sokay to seek some support.
We're here, there's supportservices here, you're in our
(11:52):
community now We've got yourback and you know, let's fight
this together too.
So community and you know,authenticity is really big for
me and you know that's somethingthat I really, you know,
continue to grow as much as Ipossibly can in the charity,
just to make sure everyone'sbeen part of something.
Carter (12:09):
Yeah, definitely.
It's a pretty great experienceto kind of when you sit with it
and think about the beginningsand where we came from
especially anyone in the mentalhealth field Because since
starting the podcast I'veswitched careers and I'm now a
mental health support workerfull-time.
I was in youth justicebeforehand, which is still kind
of in the mental health realm.
(12:29):
Before that, I was in financeand call centers for like 15
years.
So just kind of going throughthe beginnings of the podcast
and realizing that there is thatcommunity that cares about what
I have to say and they careabout what I've been able to
provide to them Changed my lifeliterally.
It's made me want to pursueevery waking moment in this
(12:50):
field and help people.
From what I can understand andfrom everyone that I've met that
are in the same field as me,like mental health support, it
all comes from lived experience.
You have to have that empathyand you have to have that lived
experience.
It's not a matter of like Iunderstand, like and imagine
what it's like to walk a mile inyour shoes, like it's people
(13:12):
that have walked miles in thoseshoes.
So in saying that, what, what'syour, your history in mental
health looking like, if you'recomfortable talking about it
yeah, yeah, absolutely so.
Sean (13:23):
I suppose my story um was uh, when I was 12 actually so
pretty young, and it startedfrom my dad sat my brother and I
down and he I thought we're introuble.
I was, I was a bit of a shittykid, so I thought I was in
trouble.
And he sat us down and he saidyou know, your dad next to talk
to you, and he looked us both inthe eye and he said Dad's sick.
(13:44):
And you know, at the time, whenI was 12, the only really
illnesses that I knew and kindof understood were cancer and a
stroke, because I had talked tomy grandparents.
And you know, he continued totalk and he said Dad's got this
thing.
It's called depression andthat's something that's you know
.
He said that it's something indad's head.
Sometimes dad's going to be areally good dad.
(14:05):
Sometimes he's probably notgoing to be a great dad.
Sometimes he might not be here.
And he said but it's not goingto take me, it's not going to.
You know, I'm not going toleave, but it's going to be hard
.
And when he talked to me aboutit again at the age of 12, I was
like I don't really care.
He said he's not going to leave.
So it must be fine.
It wasn't cancer, it wasn't astroke.
My mind, my 12-year-old mind,said well, he must be fine.
(14:30):
So over the next couple of years, I really saw what this thing
called depression was doing tomy father.
It was doing to my mother aswell.
Their marriage, their marriage,eventually broke down and it
was doing to myself and mybrother as well.
And when I got to the age of 15, I started to get some anxiety
and I started to experiencethese feelings of extreme
(14:51):
loneliness and sadness and notwanting to go to school, not
wanting to get up, not wantingto see anyone, see my parents,
see my brother resorting toself-harm and having these
suicidal thoughts.
And once I started toexperience these thoughts and
these emotions, I was able toidentify it really quickly.
Because of what my dad spoke tome about when I was 12.
(15:14):
And this is something I speakabout a lot when I do workshops
or go to do keynote events is,you know, the power of having a
conversation with your kids isis quite unbelievable, you know.
It's literally, literally savedmy life.
Once I realized at the age of 15that this was what dad had, I
was able to go and seek somesupport.
(15:34):
I was also able to say, well,if, if dad can talk about it, I
can talk about it, and if dadcan seek support about it, so
can I.
So that was something reallypowerful for me that I probably
didn't realize until I was in mysort of early 20s, because a
lot of my mates grew up with theidea that as boys especially,
we can't talk about our feelings, we can't go seek support, we
can't speak up when we're notdoing so well.
(15:55):
So that was something reallypowerful for me and probably
saved my life when I was reallyyoung, in saying that.
Obviously you know everyonethat's got lived experience
knows that mental you can go sixand support, but unfortunately
that isn't it.
So 16 years now, 16 years onfrom that, I've suffered mental
(16:15):
health every single day,sometimes really good, have
great days, and then sometimespretty awful days and scary days
as well too.
So throughout that sort of 16years I've gone through crisis
mode and crisis stage a fair fewtimes.
For those who aren't sort oftoo sure what that crisis mode
is, it's essentially when youare completely okay, comfortable
(16:38):
with the thought of self-harmand suicide, and throughout that
time I have made many attemptsin my life and there's a few
times that are pretty etched inmy memory.
As most people who've gonethrough that, they can remember
nearly every single moment,throughout the day and
throughout the night, andleading up and after as well.
(16:58):
And I think the biggest thingsin these moments is when I was
in these moments I was just, Iwas completely okay with it, I
was completely comfortable, Iwasn't scared of dying, I wasn't
scared of harming myself.
And at the time you go throughthese moments and these
experiences, you don't see afuture, you don't see anything
(17:20):
that could possibly happen thatcould make you happy.
And I often talk about one storywhere I was in my car on a
Sunday afternoon down inBallarat and I was sitting there
on the side of the road, on adirt road there, and I remember
sitting there, looking at myfront windscreen and about 50
metres ahead of me, seeing areally, really big tree, and
(17:43):
this mind frame of mine that Iwas in just told me he said this
would be a perfect place to doit.
Just close your eyes, gostraight, get a bit of speed.
There we go pretty quick.
And you know, in that moment,once again, I wasn't scared, I
wasn't fearful of dying.
It was sort of the only thingthat I could think about was
right, go straight ahead, gotowards the tree, hit it, close
(18:04):
your eyes.
Surely it won't hurt and you'llbe done.
Surely I won't hurt and you'llbe done.
And that's what I did.
So I you know what felt likefive minutes.
I only took about five or sixseconds for me to get to the
tree.
And as I approached the tree,you know again, these thoughts
of finally you know, this isgood for you, sean, this is what
(18:28):
you need started creepingthrough and within you know, an
instant, I felt a massive crashon the side of the car.
You know, my first reaction wasto chuck the foot on the brake
and open my eyes.
And as I opened my eyes, Icould see trees and shrubs and
branches, you know, smashed upagainst my front windscreen.
I quickly realized that Imissed a tree.
I didn't hit the tree, and thefirst thing I said to myself was
(18:50):
you know, you fucking idiot,but not for what I did, what I
just did, but because I couldn'teven do this.
You know I could never get thisright and you know I hated
myself for that.
I just thought, you know, thatit's something that was so easy.
All you have to do is gostraight, and you couldn't even
get this right.
If you get this right, you'rean absolute piece of shit.
You're useless, and you knowwhen that happened.
(19:13):
I remember sitting there and Isat there for about five, ten
minutes and tried to understandwhat had just happened and I
eventually got up the courage toget out of the car and try and
sort of understand what happenedand why I missed this tree.
And as I walked around the backof the car I noticed about five
, ten minutes, behind the carwas an oil ditch that was just
over a rise.
I quickly realized that thatwas the bang that I felt going
(19:36):
over.
I must have hit the oil ditchwith my left tire and knocked me
out of the way of the tree bycentimeters.
It wasn't by much at all.
That's the kind of shit thatyou see in movies and the kind
of shit that if you did thatagain today it probably wouldn't
happen.
That was really big for me.
(19:56):
That was probably one of themost memorable, you know,
attempts, because it reallyresonates with me, with my
daughter.
Now, my daughter is a really bigreason for me to keep going.
She's my best friend in myabsolute life and I often say,
you know, when I was in thatmoment, I'm not a man of faith,
but I sort of thought, you know,there's got to be a reason why
I miss this tree.
There's got to be a reason I'mstill here today and every
(20:21):
single time that I see, you know, my daughter put a smile on
somebody else's face or makesomeone else happy or make me
happy, you know, I think back tothat moment and I think, well,
that's why I miss the tree.
I didn't miss the tree so Icould be in Bangkok, although I
love it here.
I didn't miss the tree so Icould travel or or jump on this
podcast.
I missed the tree so that, youknow, my daughter could bring
happiness to other people.
And yeah, because when I was,when I was in that car looking
forward, she wasn't born yet.
(20:41):
I didn't see her, I didn't seemy future.
And I think it's important totalk about that, because a lot
of people right now, like, rightthis second, as we record this
are in that crisis mode, in thatthat thought that you know, if
I go now, it'll be done, my painwill be gone, this pain will go
away, and it's a very realfeeling, very real emotion that
(21:04):
people are going through rightnow and it's it's really scary,
and I think if we can talk aboutit as much as it hurts to talk
about it, it might be able to,you know, again make people feel
like they are not alone, showthem that these feelings are
very, very real, they're veryvalid and that you know their
future absolutely needs you.
(21:24):
And it might be the future thatyou can't see.
You know it might be kids, itmight be a career, it might be a
partner that you can't see.
It might be kids, it might be acareer, it might be a partner.
We never know what it could be.
But that's my biggest motivatorwhen I'm having a rough time as
well.
You know I haven't been in thatcrisis mode for almost two
years now, which has been areally big win for me.
(21:45):
I know that if I ever do getinto that crisis mode again,
that my mantra will be you knowyour future needs you.
The people in your life thatyou haven't even met.
You know it might be kids, itmight be this, it might be that
they absolutely need you too.
So that's a big mantra of mineto keep going and to keep
working on my mental health andseek some support through those
(22:05):
different processes too.
So, yeah, that's one of themore sort of pinnacle to my
mental health journey, but Ithink it's really important to
to say that.
You know, although I run thischarity and run this brand and
and work, you know, in suicideprevention, every single day I
don't have the cure.
I don't have the.
You know the, the 10 tips to tocure your mental health.
(22:26):
I suffer with it every singleday.
I think about suicide every day, and when I say that it, it's
not saying that I think aboutsuicide ideation every day, but
every day suicide is on my mindbecause it's something that I'm
trying to prevent.
So it's something that'sdefinitely there with me every
single day, every single momentthat I'm having a rough time.
But it's also something that,over the last three years
(22:49):
especially, I've really workedon personally to ensure that I
don't get back to that moment.
And if I do get back to thatmoment, that I am prepared for
it and I can, I can get throughit as well definitely it's.
Carter (23:01):
It's always it's like a double-edged sword hearing
hearing other people's kind ofsuicide attempt stories, because
I always like I've been theremyself, I've had several
attempts it's always strange tohear subtle differences, but
almost always overwhelmingly thesame.
So I mean I'm happy to sharemine as well.
(23:23):
I don't know if I've shared itwith my audience before, but my
mum was diagnosed with breastcancer when I was 12.
We had just moved to Bendigobecause she got remarried.
So I was in a strange townknowing no one but my mom and my
stepdad, who I already did notlike, and then all of a sudden,
you know, there was this threatof my mom being taken away from
me and that was the only thing Ihad left in this strange town
(23:44):
and it was fucking terrifying.
So here I was in like my pivotalteen, you know, going into 13,
going into teenhood, starting ata brand new school with this
massive cloud of cancer hangingover me.
And I think I got to about itwas around about 14 and I just
hadn't.
I had enough to be there for meand care for me and love me was
(24:08):
wrapped up in my mum's cancertreatment and her, you know,
working to the bone, trying justto survive every day.
And I was just like like no onewill miss me, they don't even
notice that I'm here now andwhen I'm alive.
So like I was just done with it, I was already being like
ridiculously bullied in schoolbecause I was like the fat kid.
So I was like I'm done.
(24:29):
So I found a tree tied a rope,tied a noose, and jumped and the
rope snapped and it was just,like you said, one of those
weird moments where it's likeproper second chance kind of
thing.
But at the same time thedifference for me like if you
said like I'm so stupid, I can'teven kill myself, I can't even
get that right, it was like it'sjust reinforcing that I really
(24:52):
was the fucking fat kid, like Ican't even kill myself because
the fucking rope snapped.
You're too fat.
And that one, yeah, that was ahard one to kind of deal with
because like that's scary takingthat jump, that's scary stuff.
And then for it to not work outthe way I had planned it, and
then that just to reinforce myown self-image, I was almost
(25:12):
worse off in my mental health inthe aftermath, but then was
also what I felt to be toocowardly to try it again.
So my mental health was evenworse for years after that and
my behavior reflected that, andit took me a very, very long
time to dig myself out of thatmassive hole.
I wish back then that I hadaccess to things like your
(25:37):
charity, my podcast, the friendgroup that I have, the community
that I've created.
Now I had none of that.
I had toxic friends and drugsto just numb myself as long as
possible.
So I'm super thankful thatthere are fools like what we
have created in the world nowfor other people to hear, and
(25:57):
I'm sure you're quite the same.
But I've received messages frompeople saying like I just
listened to this episode andlike this it's.
It's nice to know that I'm notalone.
It's kind of like a problemshared is a problem halved.
But if there's that communityof 50, 100, 1,000, however many
if we all share that problemtogether, it's not only halved,
(26:20):
it's just a massive, massiveweight.
Just to know that you're notalone in those feelings.
And that's the most importantpart of what both of us are
doing is that thoseconversations can carry on and
they can echo throughoutwherever they're being listened
to, and even if people don'trealize it now, those
conversations are helping thembecause they know that there are
other people out there that arefeeling the things that they're
(26:41):
feeling, and they don't have tofeel alone yeah, absolutely
spot on, mate, and thank you foryou know, sharing your story
and your vulnerability and Ithink you know vulnerability is
something you know really doesopen up some incredible
conversations.
Sean (26:55):
I call it the bro ball effect when it comes to men's
mental health.
So you know, if we have one brothat that stands up and be
vulnerable and opens up,permission, it gives permission
to all these other mates to alsoalso open up.
And it's that bro ball effectthat eventually everyone's going
to open up.
They're going to tell this,excuse me, and we're going to,
you know, really really see somevulnerability that can, can
(27:16):
save some lives.
And I think you know, if we can, we can all be vulnerable.
It's really hard I'm not takingaway that it's, I'm not saying
that's an easy thing to get upand say, hey, I've struggled
before I've, I've I've thoughtabout suicide before I've I've
self-harmed.
That's really hard to talkabout, it really, really hard.
But when we do, we givepermission to all the people
(27:37):
that love us dearly that we'vebeen there as well and we give
them permission to say, right,well, he can talk about it, she
can talk about it, so can I.
And I think it's again as Isaid at the start, people being
a part of a community when youbuild a relationship with
someone, that's that.
That's got that mental healthfactor as well.
It's really amazing, it'sreally beautiful.
(27:57):
I've got mates from you know allover Australia that I've met
through the Shaka project andwe've got the mateship where we
can go.
You know, I went with with oneof them a couple of weeks ago
and we had a good feed, we had acouple of beers, we talked shit
, but also for about 25, 30minutes we said, right, how's
your mental health, how are youdoing, what are you experiencing
(28:18):
, what are you going through?
And that was merely because webuilt a relationship that can be
a normal relationship, but wecan also have this influence of
mental health in it too, so wecan have that mateship.
So I have this influence ofmental health in it too, so we
can have that mateship.
We can have the, you know,being two blokes having a beer
and having a chat and having ayarn, but we can also have those
(28:39):
serious conversations too.
And once you infuse that intoyour relationship with your
mates and that comes from beingvulnerable and being open it
makes it a really beautifulfriendship.
It makes a really beautifulmateship that you can have with
people and I know that I cancall them up right now in tears
and say, mate, I'm struggling,can we have a chat Now?
If we go back 10 years ago,that wouldn't have happened.
You know, if we go back 15years ago and I tried to call
(29:01):
someone crying, especially abloke, you know he'd probably
call me a few names and hang upon me.
So when we show thatvulnerability and when we share
our story whether it be thewhole story or just a little bit
it's a really powerful thingthat we can do for our mates, to
give them permission to alsoshare and have that bro ball
effect and really start someconversations that could save a
(29:23):
life.
Carter (29:24):
Yeah, 100%.
So what's in store for theSharker Project?
Is there any big movements orbig plans for the future?
And yourself personally, how doyou continue the bro ball
effect from here, like you'vealready accomplished so much,
but the only way is to continuethat trajectory, right.
Sean (29:43):
Yeah, look, a big move for me over the next 24 or 48
months is just to continue tochange the culture around mental
health, especially with youngmen.
When I talk about cultures, Imean you know the drinking drugs
, gambling, the bloke banterthat we often see on social
media pages.
That is actually destroyingpeople's mental health, the
(30:05):
connection between gambling,drugs and alcohol to mental
health and suicide that is, Isuppose, enached with young boys
and young men.
You know, you turn on any sportthese days and every second out
is gambling and you know welook at that.
Oh, that's a gambling problem,but it's not.
It's a mental health problemtoo.
There's so many men that areworking their ass off during the
(30:26):
week to put all their money onthe punt or all their money into
drugs and alcohol throughoutthe weekend.
They get to Sunday.
They've got poor mental health,they've got their money in the
bank account, they're comingdown from drugs and that's when
we lose them, that's when welose people to suicide.
So it's, you know, except forjust going to the, to the source
, and I think, a lot of thetimes when we talk about mental
(30:49):
health, and you know when monthslike the month we're in now,
which is, which is men's healthmonth.
It's mental health month is.
We often get messages frompeople saying, oh well, the
government just needs to do more, the government just needs to
do more funding and this, andthat there's plenty of funding
out there.
There's plenty of money outthere for mental health.
When people say that to me, thefirst thing I say is that
(31:11):
mental health and suicideprevention starts when you get
into the next Uber.
You get into and you take outyour AirPods and you have a
conversation with the person.
Mental health and suicideprevention starts when you go
order a coffee at your barista.
You put your phone down, youlook at the barista in the eye
and you say hello, how's yourday, can I please have this?
You know these little thingsthat we actually need to start.
(31:32):
There's plenty of funding,there's plenty of money out
there for different charitiesand organizations and this, and
that it is what we have to do aseveryday people when it comes
to suicide prevention.
Well, yes, you know you'recalling your mate and saying,
hey, I'm a bit worried about you.
You've been drinking a bit toooften, you're drinking more than
usual and you know, I saw lastnight you got onto some drugs
(31:54):
and a bag and stuff like that.
I'm worried about you.
Are you okay?
I'm coming around, let's go fora coffee, let's go for a walk.
It starts there, you know.
It starts of what we can do forour community and start those
conversations within the peoplein our friendship group, within
our loved ones, and then we cangrow from there.
So a big, big thing of what I'mdoing with the charity over the
(32:17):
next 24 months is doing that is, you know, changing the
cultures and the conversationsaround mental health, getting to
as many communities as wepossibly can and changing the
way we speak to each other,changing the way we look at
mental health and trying tostart at the bottom and change
people's aspects and ideasaround mental health, suicide,
(32:38):
self, the connection and thecorrelation to so many harmful
things that are unfortunatelyembedded in the Australian
culture.
So shifting that and reallyreally seeing if we made an
impact that way, becauseunfortunately everything else
isn't working very well for us.
We can build million dollarsupport services and all this
sort of stuff, but I think if wego back to the roots of
(32:59):
everything and just starttalking to people and talking to
individuals, then we can have abit more of a positive impact
on this very, very toughchallenge too.
So that's the idea over thenext 24 months that's why I'm
over here is to learn from someof the best doctors and
psychiatrists and psychologistsin the world.
Personally, my passion is thismy passion is to get more people
(33:23):
talking.
So continue to do that as muchas possible you can, whilst
looking after my own mentalhealth as well, and continue to
grow in those areas as well too.
But, yeah, a lot of work to doabout a lot of work, but it'll
be never ending.
All that sort of stuff.
That's definitely work we can,we can achieve, and the best
thing about the suicideprevention space is that it's
(33:44):
very collaborative.
I'm over here with some of thebiggest organizations in the
world and some from Australia,from all over the shop and you
know, coming from when I used towork in gyms, it was very
competitive.
It was very we're the best,we're the best, all that sort of
stuff.
But in the suicide preventionspace, everybody's working
together.
Everybody's working togetherfor one goal, and you know that
(34:04):
is to prevent suicide.
So we're in a really luckyspace in the prevention space,
where everybody wants to work atthe same pace.
Everyone wants to go absolutelyas hard as we possibly can to
fix this.
So yeah, it's, I suppose, up tous to continue that work.
Carter (34:22):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
It's noble goals, very, verynoble goals.
Yet again, just because thereare comparisons to be made, I'm
I'm quite the same.
At the moment I am working ontrying to get my second
children's book published,because I believe that those
conversations surrounding men'smental health start at a young
(34:43):
age.
And I'm going even younger witha children's book titled baby
boy, it's okay to cry.
Because because I I reallythink that meaningful change
cannot, it can happen on asurface level with our
generation I'm guessing you'rearound the same age as me early
30s, mid 30s, maybe late 20s,not sure there can be some
(35:05):
change surrounding out the waywe think and the way we frame
things and the relationship thatwe already have with mental
health.
There are a lot of men out therethat are too stern in their way
of thinking with.
You know, men don't talk abouttheir emotions.
Man up, don't be a pussy, allof that rhetoric.
So, yeah, I went and wrote abook about it.
(35:27):
So future generations can, youknow, can hopefully read my book
at a young age and understand.
You know, baby boy, it's okayto cry.
There's nothing wrong withcrying If you fall over, cry If
you hurt yourself, cry If youfeel sad fucking cry Cause like
feeling is healing.
That's, that's my big thing andthat's, you know, something
(35:47):
that I'm hoping I can pass on tofuture generations to create
that meaningful change andemotional intelligence and just
willingness to communicate whatyou're feeling and how you're
feeling.
Sean (36:03):
Yeah, beautiful mate, that they can actually have an
impact on this, on mental healthand on the people's future of
mental health and suicideprevention.
Whether it be writing a book orwhether it be simply having a
conversation with your mates,it's such little things that we
can all do to actually make thatimpact.
And if we're all doing justthat one little thing again,
(36:26):
whether it be writing a book,doing a podcast or talking to
your mates, those little thingsall add up, you know 100 people
working is much more better thanyou know two people working.
So if we can get everyoneunderstanding that they can have
an impact on this conversationand on suicide prevention and on
, you know, just that idea that,yeah, boys can cry and changing
(36:47):
that stigma, everybody has animpact on that.
So getting that conversationout there as well.
We do an ambassador program withthe Shaka Project and one of
the big rules with theambassador program is that I
don't care if you've got amillion followers or five
followers, you're an ambassadorand you can be one of our
ambassadors.
(37:07):
And the idea behind that is thatwe see in this social media
world these days is this, youknow, quote-unquote influencer I
hate that term, I think it'sridiculous.
I think an influencer, someonewith influence, is someone that,
literally what I said beforetakes out their AirPods and has
a chat to the Uber driver on theway to the airport or wherever
they're going, or talks to theirfriend about what they're
(37:29):
concerned about.
That's an influencer.
An influencer isn't someonethat's got 5 million followers
and hosts their perfect dayevery day.
That's not putting influence onpeople's lives.
Influence is something that weall can do in a very, very
minuscule sort of impact way aswell.
So having that idea thateveryone can make an impact
wherever they are, whoever theyare, no matter how many
(37:51):
followers they've got all thesedifferent things is something
really, really powerful that wecan all do to create that change
and adapt the conversation aswell.
Carter (37:59):
So how can people get involved, how can people become
ambassadors, how can peopledonate or anything like that?
Sean (38:07):
Yeah, just jump on the Instagram, the shaka project.
That's probably where youyou'll find everything.
So all their social media thereand t-shirts, all this, all the
merchandise, all that sort ofstuff I'll try and post three or
four times every day just toyou know, keep everyone, I
suppose, getting that thatimpactful content, giving back
as much as possible you can.
So jump on there, share it withyour friends, share it with
(38:28):
your family members.
But I think the biggest thingthat everyone can do to help
this, this cause, is just totalk to their mates, check in
with their mates.
You know, if you're drivingright now or you're going for a
walk, you know after the podcast, give them a call and just
check in.
That's, that's the biggestthing.
I don't care if we sell onet-shirt for the next five months
.
If we can start 100conversations just by people
(38:49):
messaging their mates, thenthat's much better than selling
a couple t-shirts and andgetting some some donations.
Carter (38:55):
So that's um, yeah, one thing I'll definitely ask for
sure, awesome if you don't mindme asking, just because I know a
lot of people like fullvisibility when it comes to
charities, the the profits madefrom from the sale of t-shirts
does.
Uh, where does that go?
Sean (39:11):
so well because we are a non-for-profit.
The, the t-shirts, the salesfrom the t-shirts goes back into
the non-for-profits as twoentities, but most of our
donations and stuff um arethrough crowdfunding.
So, for example, we did the uhrun for our mates just a couple
of months ago and thatessentially helped us go to.
Well it's still.
It's still working.
We're still doing it.
(39:32):
Present free workshops atschools, at sporting clubs, at,
you know, work sites, communityorganizations, all these
different places that you knowcan't get the funding for
different workshops and events,so we'll go over to schools.
We've done about five schoolsin the last couple of weeks.
Actually it's been pretty busywork.
A couple of weeks for schoolsprobably go there, do some
(39:53):
workshops with the year 7students through the year 12,
and that's essentially where alot of their funding goes is to
is to be able to get there andto to do all these things for
free for the schools and for thestudents beautiful, perfect,
awesome.
Carter (40:05):
Well, I reckon that will wrap us up.
Thank you again for joining meand have an amazing time in
Bangkok, learning from theworld's leaders in psychology
and psychiatry and mental health.
It's super exciting.
I'm going to be picking yourbrain over the next week trying
to get some information formyself as well no, thank you,
(40:29):
mate, appreciate it always,always happy to share no worries
now, everyone, make sure you gofollow the shaka project on
instagram, check out theirwebsite, buy their merch.
It's an absolutely incrediblecause and, sean you, you really
should be proud of yourself,mate.
You are making change and I'mproud of you, and you know we're
friends now, whether you likeit or not.
(40:50):
I'm going to go buy some merchas soon as we're done.
Sean (40:54):
Thank you, mate.
I really appreciate it.
Thank you.
Speaker 4 (40:58):
To make it so my life's a better place.
If there's one thing I see,then your only thing is me Just
knowing that I'm trying to makea change.
Can I put it all on meResponsibilities, and all the
(41:27):
other nonsense coming byrepeating it?
There's one thing I knowpossibilities and all the other
nonsense coming by repeatedly.
There's one thing I know it'sknowing to let go.
Just knowing that I'm trying tomake a change doesn't seem too
much just to ask for love,because there's many things that
(41:50):
I do over and I've got a lot,but I won't give up On those
many things that I do over.
We would like to acknowledge the traditional
custodians of this land.
We pay our respects to theElders past, present and
emerging, for they hold thememories, the traditions and the
culture of the Aboriginal andTorres Strait Islander people
across the nation.
Warning this podcast containsexplicit language and discusses
(00:22):
sensitive topics related tomental health childhood trauma,
birth trauma, abuse, miscarriageand suicide.
Listener discretion is advised.
If you find these subjectsdistressing or triggering, we
recommend taking caution andconsidering whether to proceed
with listening.
If you or someone you know isstruggling, please reach out to
a mental health professional ora trusted individual for support
(00:43):
.
Your wellbeing is our priority.
Carter (00:46):
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Touched
Out podcast.
Today I chat with Sean, thefounder of the Shaka Project,
who took his own experienceswith mental health and turned
them into a mission to supportmen everywhere.
From his journey as a gym ownerin Ballarat and Bendigo to
establishing a charity that usesconversation starting t-shirts,
sean shares his compellingstory of passion, resilience and
(01:11):
community building.
Discover how his livedexperience, mixed with his
dedication to his daughters,shaped his approach to mental
health advocacy.
Speaker 4 (01:17):
So take a breath from everything right here and Take
some time.
It's alright, you'll be fineafter touch of a cat.
(01:40):
Take all night, you'll be fine,it's all right.
The Touchdown Podcast.
Carter (01:57):
Today we've got Sean.
Sean is the founder of theShaka Project, a men's mental
health charity.
Thank you for joining me.
You've flown in from to Bangkoklast night and it's 20 past six
where you are now, so I reallyappreciate you jumping on to
have a chat with me.
How are you going?
Sean (02:16):
Thank you so much for having me, matt.
I really appreciate it.
I'm going well.
I'm a little bit tired, it'sbeen a pretty big 24 hours, but
I'm going well.
I'm over here for theInternational Suicide Prevention
Conference, so it's a prettyimportant week, with it being a
pretty important month.
So, yeah, looking forward tothe week over here and learning,
hopefully, some preventativeskills for Australia.
Carter (02:38):
Awesome, that's great.
So why don't we start off byyou telling me a little bit
about yourself and a little bitabout your personal life and
your history?
Sean (02:46):
Yeah, absolutely so.
I was born in Ballarat inVictoria.
I lived there for about 29years and I've only recently
moved down to Torquay, just downthe surf coast near Geelong.
There I'm a father.
So I've got a 10-year-old and asix-year-old little girl and
they're sort of well of.
They are my entire life.
They're my best friends and Ilove them dearly and I
(03:08):
essentially, if I'm not doingstuff with the chakra and
working and stuff like that, I'mspending as much time as I
possibly can with them,especially my daughter, and you
know I love footy, love to knowI'm an AFL fan, love my sport,
love my gym and working out andrunning and stuff like that too.
So I suppose I'm a reasonablyboring dad.
I just have that little bit ofa passion for mental health,
(03:31):
especially mental health, andpassion for people as well.
Carter (03:35):
Awesome.
So you're a Ballarat boy, I'm aBendigo boy.
Sean (03:39):
Oh, there we go, you're a rock one Springfield and
Shelbyville.
That's what it is.
Yeah, I think it's probablydied down now, but no, I'm born
there, born and raised and, yeah, moved down to the coast last
year so I spent a bit of time inBendigo.
I actually had a gym in Bendigofor about two years, so I
worked there for quite a while.
But, yeah, bailed out for themajority of it, but down to the
beach now and couldn, which ismuch nicer.
Carter (04:01):
Yeah, riff and my brother and his family just
moved to Anglesey, so, yeah yeah, around about the same area
down on the great ocean roadthere.
Yeah, great spot, great stop.
Yeah, no, it's beautiful,awesome I.
I, before we started recording,I wanted to make sure that it
was fresh in my mind andeverything like that, so I made
(04:22):
sure I didn't do too muchresearch, because I want to
learn from you instead of fromwords.
I'm ADHD, so that's how I liketo do things.
So why don't you run me throughhow the Shaka Project was born?
What's the history there?
Sean (04:37):
Yeah, so I suppose it was born from when I, before I had
the Shaka Project, I was a gymowner, I was a personal trainer,
I had a couple of gyms inBallarat and that one in
Beddingo as well, and throughoutthe time I was doing that for
about 14 years and throughoutthe time, I see, mental health
was a really big part of my lifesince the age of 15.
I can go into that a little bitlater as well, but when I
(05:03):
started to run my own businessesand really want to sort of make
a bit of an impact, everysingle time I do maybe a
fundraiser or any sort of event,I'd make sure that I do it for
mental health, especially men'smental health.
I was always very passionateabout it and I suppose where the
Shaka came from is I reallywanted to make a personal impact
.
So I thought there was a bit ofa gap there when it came to how
we can actually make a personalimpact on somebody's mental
(05:24):
health.
There was an event that Iraised around $10,000 to $12,000
.
It was a 24-hour treadmillchallenge.
So we had all these people comeinto my gym, ran on the
treadmill for 24 hours.
It was exhausting, it wasunbelievably tiring and an
emotional experience, and wewere able to raise a fair bit of
money and when we donated thismoney we raised about $10,000 or
(05:48):
$11,000.
We got a really generic emailback from this charity.
It's one of the big fourcharities.
I won't mention who it is, butit was a really generic email
that essentially just saidthanks for your donation and it
sort of really rubbed me out thewrong way a little bit.
I'm like I really wanted to beable to make a personal impact
and see what this could actuallydo.
This funding could do so.
(06:09):
From there I just thought,right, what can I do to make a
personal impact?
I'm very big on.
You know, if you're passionateabout something, make it your
life and make it something thatyou can actually make impactful
moments on other people's livesas well.
So the idea was to start at-shirt brand and the idea
(06:31):
behind using the t-shirts wasthat we would put a permission
slip or some sort ofacknowledgement that I have
empathy, I have understandingfor mental health.
I'll put it on a t-shirt andthat's going to allow you to
open up and talk to me.
It's a conversation starter and, you know, if we can encourage
a conversation, ignite aconversation, then maybe, and
(06:52):
just maybe, we can start apositive conversation around,
especially mental health andsuicide prevention, and we can.
We can change some lives.
So that was the idea.
It was a very, very small idea,a bit of a side passion.
I remember pumping $1,500 of mysavings into these T-shirts and
singlets and my partner at thetime was not happy with me at
(07:13):
all because we were away onholidays at the time in Cairns
and obviously trying to have agood time.
I had to be pretty strict withmoney because I just put it into
all these T-shirts and singlets.
So I launched that and prettyquickly it became evident that
this is something that Australiareally connected to.
It was something that Australiareally wanted and, I think,
(07:34):
needed as well.
We were.
You know, within 24 hours oflaunch all the t-shirts and
singlets were sold out, went,you know, quite viral.
So the Facebook post, you know,had like 10,000 shares from all
over Australia.
We had orders from interstate,from international.
At this point I had no idea evenhow to send a T-shirt in the
mail.
You know, when this order camethrough from New South Wales,
(07:56):
I'm like what do we do here?
How do I do this?
I just assumed that people fromBallarat would buy it and I
could just go drop it off.
So would buy it and I couldjust go drop it off.
So it went pretty crazy for thefirst month or so.
And once I saw this again, I sawthat there's a really big want
for this and need for this.
So I essentially just doubleddown and what was a passion
project quickly became somethingthat I was working on every
(08:21):
single day.
I still have the gym, so I wasstill a personal trainer.
And then COVID hit.
And once COVID hit, it was wehad to shut the gyms for about
13 months, which was pretty hardbut slight blessing in disguise
, because it gave me more timeto work on the Shaka project.
And once we reopened and openedup the gyms again, I sort of
walked into the gyms and thoughtyou know, this isn't my passion
(08:43):
anymore.
I could sort of take it out ofmy life for the better and I
decided to sort of chase it fulltime.
So five years on, here we are.
That's my full-time positionnow, full-time gig, and I'm
extremely lucky.
I get to travel the world andspeak to some amazing people
about suicide prevention, notonly in Australia but around the
world, in what we can do tohelp people, how we can prevent
(09:05):
suicide and what we can do tochange the cultures around
mental health, suicideprevention, drugs, alcohol, all
these different things as well,just to essentially change those
statistics, especially backhome in Australia.
Carter (09:18):
Yeah, beautiful, it's a great story and it's not
entirely removed from my ownstory.
Essentially, the same thingsthat you've just said is why
this podcast was birthed Fordifferent reasons on surface
level, but underneath the water,it was just to be the change
that I want to see in the worldand help people start those
(09:40):
conversations, especially thereally hard conversations, the
ones that make peopleuncomfortable, the ones that are
still stigmatized to this day.
I want to make sure that I canprovide this platform and this
just safe space where peoplecould just essentially trauma
dump.
It's like therapy without itbeing therapy.
So it's awesome that you'vetaken on that role and taken on
(10:03):
that responsibility.
It's amazing to see so manypeople that are coming to the
party now, especially with yourbrand.
It is a conversation starter,but it's there for people who
aren't necessarily ready to talkabout their own journeys but
are willing to project that theysupport the conversations and
(10:24):
everything like that.
So it's massive, massive stepsin the right direction.
Sean (10:29):
Yeah, I think it's really important as well.
I was actually talking tosomeone was it a dinner on
Friday night back in Geelong?
And a guy asked me he was verymuch into business, growth and
stuff and he said what do yousell, what's your charity's
purpose and what do you actuallysell?
And a lot of companies likethis will say, all right, we
(10:49):
sell the T-shirts, we sell this,we sell that.
But I think a really importantthing to me personally is that
we sell a community and aconversation.
That's it.
And community is something thateverybody wants to be a part of
.
Now, whether that be a podcastcommunity, you might have a set
amount of listeners that listento you every single episode.
That's your community andthat's more powerful than
(11:10):
absolutely anything.
Those guys that listen, theylove that.
They're a part of yourcommunity.
So the same thing with theShackle Project.
As soon as someone either buys at-shirt or shares a post or
comments on a post or sends us amessage or you know, we jump on
a podcast with them, werecommend them into the, the
community, and you know when,when you're part of something,
(11:31):
it just makes you feel a bitbetter too.
So that's the big thing withwith me personally is that I
want to be able to just welcomeas many people as you possibly
can into the community and,every now and then, triple that
message, that that says, hey,you know, if you're struggling,
it's okay to talk about it, it'sokay to seek some support.
We're here, there's supportservices here, you're in our
(11:52):
community now We've got yourback and you know, let's fight
this together too.
So community and you know,authenticity is really big for
me and you know that's somethingthat I really, you know,
continue to grow as much as Ipossibly can in the charity,
just to make sure everyone'sbeen part of something.
Carter (12:09):
Yeah, definitely.
It's a pretty great experienceto kind of when you sit with it
and think about the beginningsand where we came from
especially anyone in the mentalhealth field Because since
starting the podcast I'veswitched careers and I'm now a
mental health support workerfull-time.
I was in youth justicebeforehand, which is still kind
of in the mental health realm.
(12:29):
Before that, I was in financeand call centers for like 15
years.
So just kind of going throughthe beginnings of the podcast
and realizing that there is thatcommunity that cares about what
I have to say and they careabout what I've been able to
provide to them Changed my lifeliterally.
It's made me want to pursueevery waking moment in this
(12:50):
field and help people.
From what I can understand andfrom everyone that I've met that
are in the same field as me,like mental health support, it
all comes from lived experience.
You have to have that empathyand you have to have that lived
experience.
It's not a matter of like Iunderstand, like and imagine
what it's like to walk a mile inyour shoes, like it's people
(13:12):
that have walked miles in thoseshoes.
So in saying that, what, what'syour, your history in mental
health looking like, if you'recomfortable talking about it
yeah, yeah, absolutely so.
Sean (13:23):
I suppose my story um was uh, when I was 12 actually so
pretty young, and it startedfrom my dad sat my brother and I
down and he I thought we're introuble.
I was, I was a bit of a shittykid, so I thought I was in
trouble.
And he sat us down and he saidyou know, your dad next to talk
to you, and he looked us both inthe eye and he said Dad's sick.
(13:44):
And you know, at the time, whenI was 12, the only really
illnesses that I knew and kindof understood were cancer and a
stroke, because I had talked tomy grandparents.
And you know, he continued totalk and he said Dad's got this
thing.
It's called depression andthat's something that's you know
.
He said that it's something indad's head.
Sometimes dad's going to be areally good dad.
(14:05):
Sometimes he's probably notgoing to be a great dad.
Sometimes he might not be here.
And he said but it's not goingto take me, it's not going to.
You know, I'm not going toleave, but it's going to be hard
.
And when he talked to me aboutit again at the age of 12, I was
like I don't really care.
He said he's not going to leave.
So it must be fine.
It wasn't cancer, it wasn't astroke.
My mind, my 12-year-old mind,said well, he must be fine.
(14:30):
So over the next couple of years, I really saw what this thing
called depression was doing tomy father.
It was doing to my mother aswell.
Their marriage, their marriage,eventually broke down and it
was doing to myself and mybrother as well.
And when I got to the age of 15, I started to get some anxiety
and I started to experiencethese feelings of extreme
(14:51):
loneliness and sadness and notwanting to go to school, not
wanting to get up, not wantingto see anyone, see my parents,
see my brother resorting toself-harm and having these
suicidal thoughts.
And once I started toexperience these thoughts and
these emotions, I was able toidentify it really quickly.
Because of what my dad spoke tome about when I was 12.
(15:14):
And this is something I speakabout a lot when I do workshops
or go to do keynote events is,you know, the power of having a
conversation with your kids isis quite unbelievable, you know.
It's literally, literally savedmy life.
Once I realized at the age of 15that this was what dad had, I
was able to go and seek somesupport.
(15:34):
I was also able to say, well,if, if dad can talk about it, I
can talk about it, and if dadcan seek support about it, so
can I.
So that was something reallypowerful for me that I probably
didn't realize until I was in mysort of early 20s, because a
lot of my mates grew up with theidea that as boys especially,
we can't talk about our feelings, we can't go seek support, we
can't speak up when we're notdoing so well.
(15:55):
So that was something reallypowerful for me and probably
saved my life when I was reallyyoung, in saying that.
Obviously you know everyonethat's got lived experience
knows that mental you can go sixand support, but unfortunately
that isn't it.
So 16 years now, 16 years onfrom that, I've suffered mental
(16:15):
health every single day,sometimes really good, have
great days, and then sometimespretty awful days and scary days
as well too.
So throughout that sort of 16years I've gone through crisis
mode and crisis stage a fair fewtimes.
For those who aren't sort oftoo sure what that crisis mode
is, it's essentially when youare completely okay, comfortable
(16:38):
with the thought of self-harmand suicide, and throughout that
time I have made many attemptsin my life and there's a few
times that are pretty etched inmy memory.
As most people who've gonethrough that, they can remember
nearly every single moment,throughout the day and
throughout the night, andleading up and after as well.
(16:58):
And I think the biggest thingsin these moments is when I was
in these moments I was just, Iwas completely okay with it, I
was completely comfortable, Iwasn't scared of dying, I wasn't
scared of harming myself.
And at the time you go throughthese moments and these
experiences, you don't see afuture, you don't see anything
(17:20):
that could possibly happen thatcould make you happy.
And I often talk about one storywhere I was in my car on a
Sunday afternoon down inBallarat and I was sitting there
on the side of the road, on adirt road there, and I remember
sitting there, looking at myfront windscreen and about 50
metres ahead of me, seeing areally, really big tree, and
(17:43):
this mind frame of mine that Iwas in just told me he said this
would be a perfect place to doit.
Just close your eyes, gostraight, get a bit of speed.
There we go pretty quick.
And you know, in that moment,once again, I wasn't scared, I
wasn't fearful of dying.
It was sort of the only thingthat I could think about was
right, go straight ahead, gotowards the tree, hit it, close
(18:04):
your eyes.
Surely it won't hurt and you'llbe done.
Surely I won't hurt and you'llbe done.
And that's what I did.
So I you know what felt likefive minutes.
I only took about five or sixseconds for me to get to the
tree.
And as I approached the tree,you know again, these thoughts
of finally you know, this isgood for you, sean, this is what
(18:28):
you need started creepingthrough and within you know, an
instant, I felt a massive crashon the side of the car.
You know, my first reaction wasto chuck the foot on the brake
and open my eyes.
And as I opened my eyes, Icould see trees and shrubs and
branches, you know, smashed upagainst my front windscreen.
I quickly realized that Imissed a tree.
I didn't hit the tree, and thefirst thing I said to myself was
(18:50):
you know, you fucking idiot,but not for what I did, what I
just did, but because I couldn'teven do this.
You know I could never get thisright and you know I hated
myself for that.
I just thought, you know, thatit's something that was so easy.
All you have to do is gostraight, and you couldn't even
get this right.
If you get this right, you'rean absolute piece of shit.
You're useless, and you knowwhen that happened.
(19:13):
I remember sitting there and Isat there for about five, ten
minutes and tried to understandwhat had just happened and I
eventually got up the courage toget out of the car and try and
sort of understand what happenedand why I missed this tree.
And as I walked around the backof the car I noticed about five
, ten minutes, behind the carwas an oil ditch that was just
over a rise.
I quickly realized that thatwas the bang that I felt going
(19:36):
over.
I must have hit the oil ditchwith my left tire and knocked me
out of the way of the tree bycentimeters.
It wasn't by much at all.
That's the kind of shit thatyou see in movies and the kind
of shit that if you did thatagain today it probably wouldn't
happen.
That was really big for me.
(19:56):
That was probably one of themost memorable, you know,
attempts, because it reallyresonates with me, with my
daughter.
Now, my daughter is a really bigreason for me to keep going.
She's my best friend in myabsolute life and I often say,
you know, when I was in thatmoment, I'm not a man of faith,
but I sort of thought, you know,there's got to be a reason why
I miss this tree.
There's got to be a reason I'mstill here today and every
(20:21):
single time that I see, you know, my daughter put a smile on
somebody else's face or makesomeone else happy or make me
happy, you know, I think back tothat moment and I think, well,
that's why I miss the tree.
I didn't miss the tree so Icould be in Bangkok, although I
love it here.
I didn't miss the tree so Icould travel or or jump on this
podcast.
I missed the tree so that, youknow, my daughter could bring
happiness to other people.
And yeah, because when I was,when I was in that car looking
forward, she wasn't born yet.
(20:41):
I didn't see her, I didn't seemy future.
And I think it's important totalk about that, because a lot
of people right now, like, rightthis second, as we record this
are in that crisis mode, in thatthat thought that you know, if
I go now, it'll be done, my painwill be gone, this pain will go
away, and it's a very realfeeling, very real emotion that
(21:04):
people are going through rightnow and it's it's really scary,
and I think if we can talk aboutit as much as it hurts to talk
about it, it might be able to,you know, again make people feel
like they are not alone, showthem that these feelings are
very, very real, they're veryvalid and that you know their
future absolutely needs you.
(21:24):
And it might be the future thatyou can't see.
You know it might be kids, itmight be a career, it might be a
partner that you can't see.
It might be kids, it might be acareer, it might be a partner.
We never know what it could be.
But that's my biggest motivatorwhen I'm having a rough time as
well.
You know I haven't been in thatcrisis mode for almost two
years now, which has been areally big win for me.
(21:45):
I know that if I ever do getinto that crisis mode again,
that my mantra will be you knowyour future needs you.
The people in your life thatyou haven't even met.
You know it might be kids, itmight be this, it might be that
they absolutely need you too.
So that's a big mantra of mineto keep going and to keep
working on my mental health andseek some support through those
(22:05):
different processes too.
So, yeah, that's one of themore sort of pinnacle to my
mental health journey, but Ithink it's really important to
to say that.
You know, although I run thischarity and run this brand and
and work, you know, in suicideprevention, every single day I
don't have the cure.
I don't have the.
You know the, the 10 tips to tocure your mental health.
(22:26):
I suffer with it every singleday.
I think about suicide every day, and when I say that it, it's
not saying that I think aboutsuicide ideation every day, but
every day suicide is on my mindbecause it's something that I'm
trying to prevent.
So it's something that'sdefinitely there with me every
single day, every single momentthat I'm having a rough time.
But it's also something that,over the last three years
(22:49):
especially, I've really workedon personally to ensure that I
don't get back to that moment.
And if I do get back to thatmoment, that I am prepared for
it and I can, I can get throughit as well definitely it's.
Carter (23:01):
It's always it's like a double-edged sword hearing
hearing other people's kind ofsuicide attempt stories, because
I always like I've been theremyself, I've had several
attempts it's always strange tohear subtle differences, but
almost always overwhelmingly thesame.
So I mean I'm happy to sharemine as well.
(23:23):
I don't know if I've shared itwith my audience before, but my
mum was diagnosed with breastcancer when I was 12.
We had just moved to Bendigobecause she got remarried.
So I was in a strange townknowing no one but my mom and my
stepdad, who I already did notlike, and then all of a sudden,
you know, there was this threatof my mom being taken away from
me and that was the only thing Ihad left in this strange town
(23:44):
and it was fucking terrifying.
So here I was in like my pivotalteen, you know, going into 13,
going into teenhood, starting ata brand new school with this
massive cloud of cancer hangingover me.
And I think I got to about itwas around about 14 and I just
hadn't.
I had enough to be there for meand care for me and love me was
(24:08):
wrapped up in my mum's cancertreatment and her, you know,
working to the bone, trying justto survive every day.
And I was just like like no onewill miss me, they don't even
notice that I'm here now andwhen I'm alive.
So like I was just done with it, I was already being like
ridiculously bullied in schoolbecause I was like the fat kid.
So I was like I'm done.
(24:29):
So I found a tree tied a rope,tied a noose, and jumped and the
rope snapped and it was just,like you said, one of those
weird moments where it's likeproper second chance kind of
thing.
But at the same time thedifference for me like if you
said like I'm so stupid, I can'teven kill myself, I can't even
get that right, it was like it'sjust reinforcing that I really
(24:52):
was the fucking fat kid, like Ican't even kill myself because
the fucking rope snapped.
You're too fat.
And that one, yeah, that was ahard one to kind of deal with
because like that's scary takingthat jump, that's scary stuff.
And then for it to not work outthe way I had planned it, and
then that just to reinforce myown self-image, I was almost
(25:12):
worse off in my mental health inthe aftermath, but then was
also what I felt to be toocowardly to try it again.
So my mental health was evenworse for years after that and
my behavior reflected that, andit took me a very, very long
time to dig myself out of thatmassive hole.
I wish back then that I hadaccess to things like your
(25:37):
charity, my podcast, the friendgroup that I have, the community
that I've created.
Now I had none of that.
I had toxic friends and drugsto just numb myself as long as
possible.
So I'm super thankful thatthere are fools like what we
have created in the world nowfor other people to hear, and
(25:57):
I'm sure you're quite the same.
But I've received messages frompeople saying like I just
listened to this episode andlike this it's.
It's nice to know that I'm notalone.
It's kind of like a problemshared is a problem halved.
But if there's that communityof 50, 100, 1,000, however many
if we all share that problemtogether, it's not only halved,
(26:20):
it's just a massive, massiveweight.
Just to know that you're notalone in those feelings.
And that's the most importantpart of what both of us are
doing is that thoseconversations can carry on and
they can echo throughoutwherever they're being listened
to, and even if people don'trealize it now, those
conversations are helping thembecause they know that there are
other people out there that arefeeling the things that they're
(26:41):
feeling, and they don't have tofeel alone yeah, absolutely
spot on, mate, and thank you foryou know, sharing your story
and your vulnerability and Ithink you know vulnerability is
something you know really doesopen up some incredible
conversations.
Sean (26:55):
I call it the bro ball effect when it comes to men's
mental health.
So you know, if we have one brothat that stands up and be
vulnerable and opens up,permission, it gives permission
to all these other mates to alsoalso open up.
And it's that bro ball effectthat eventually everyone's going
to open up.
They're going to tell this,excuse me, and we're going to,
you know, really really see somevulnerability that can, can
(27:16):
save some lives.
And I think you know, if we can, we can all be vulnerable.
It's really hard I'm not takingaway that it's, I'm not saying
that's an easy thing to get upand say, hey, I've struggled
before I've, I've I've thoughtabout suicide before I've I've
self-harmed.
That's really hard to talkabout, it really, really hard.
But when we do, we givepermission to all the people
(27:37):
that love us dearly that we'vebeen there as well and we give
them permission to say, right,well, he can talk about it, she
can talk about it, so can I.
And I think it's again as Isaid at the start, people being
a part of a community when youbuild a relationship with
someone, that's that.
That's got that mental healthfactor as well.
It's really amazing, it'sreally beautiful.
(27:57):
I've got mates from you know allover Australia that I've met
through the Shaka project andwe've got the mateship where we
can go.
You know, I went with with oneof them a couple of weeks ago
and we had a good feed, we had acouple of beers, we talked shit
, but also for about 25, 30minutes we said, right, how's
your mental health, how are youdoing, what are you experiencing
(28:18):
, what are you going through?
And that was merely because webuilt a relationship that can be
a normal relationship, but wecan also have this influence of
mental health in it too, so wecan have that mateship.
So I have this influence ofmental health in it too, so we
can have that mateship.
We can have the, you know,being two blokes having a beer
and having a chat and having ayarn, but we can also have those
(28:39):
serious conversations too.
And once you infuse that intoyour relationship with your
mates and that comes from beingvulnerable and being open it
makes it a really beautifulfriendship.
It makes a really beautifulmateship that you can have with
people and I know that I cancall them up right now in tears
and say, mate, I'm struggling,can we have a chat Now?
If we go back 10 years ago,that wouldn't have happened.
You know, if we go back 15years ago and I tried to call
(29:01):
someone crying, especially abloke, you know he'd probably
call me a few names and hang upon me.
So when we show thatvulnerability and when we share
our story whether it be thewhole story or just a little bit
it's a really powerful thingthat we can do for our mates, to
give them permission to alsoshare and have that bro ball
effect and really start someconversations that could save a
(29:23):
life.
Carter (29:24):
Yeah, 100%.
So what's in store for theSharker Project?
Is there any big movements orbig plans for the future?
And yourself personally, how doyou continue the bro ball
effect from here, like you'vealready accomplished so much,
but the only way is to continuethat trajectory, right.
Sean (29:43):
Yeah, look, a big move for me over the next 24 or 48
months is just to continue tochange the culture around mental
health, especially with youngmen.
When I talk about cultures, Imean you know the drinking drugs
, gambling, the bloke banterthat we often see on social
media pages.
That is actually destroyingpeople's mental health, the
(30:05):
connection between gambling,drugs and alcohol to mental
health and suicide that is, Isuppose, enached with young boys
and young men.
You know, you turn on any sportthese days and every second out
is gambling and you know welook at that.
Oh, that's a gambling problem,but it's not.
It's a mental health problemtoo.
There's so many men that areworking their ass off during the
(30:26):
week to put all their money onthe punt or all their money into
drugs and alcohol throughoutthe weekend.
They get to Sunday.
They've got poor mental health,they've got their money in the
bank account, they're comingdown from drugs and that's when
we lose them, that's when welose people to suicide.
So it's, you know, except forjust going to the, to the source
, and I think, a lot of thetimes when we talk about mental
(30:49):
health, and you know when monthslike the month we're in now,
which is, which is men's healthmonth.
It's mental health month is.
We often get messages frompeople saying, oh well, the
government just needs to do more, the government just needs to
do more funding and this, andthat there's plenty of funding
out there.
There's plenty of money outthere for mental health.
When people say that to me, thefirst thing I say is that
(31:11):
mental health and suicideprevention starts when you get
into the next Uber.
You get into and you take outyour AirPods and you have a
conversation with the person.
Mental health and suicideprevention starts when you go
order a coffee at your barista.
You put your phone down, youlook at the barista in the eye
and you say hello, how's yourday, can I please have this?
You know these little thingsthat we actually need to start.
(31:32):
There's plenty of funding,there's plenty of money out
there for different charitiesand organizations and this, and
that it is what we have to do aseveryday people when it comes
to suicide prevention.
Well, yes, you know you'recalling your mate and saying,
hey, I'm a bit worried about you.
You've been drinking a bit toooften, you're drinking more than
usual and you know, I saw lastnight you got onto some drugs
(31:54):
and a bag and stuff like that.
I'm worried about you.
Are you okay?
I'm coming around, let's go fora coffee, let's go for a walk.
It starts there, you know.
It starts of what we can do forour community and start those
conversations within the peoplein our friendship group, within
our loved ones, and then we cangrow from there.
So a big, big thing of what I'mdoing with the charity over the
(32:17):
next 24 months is doing that is, you know, changing the
cultures and the conversationsaround mental health, getting to
as many communities as wepossibly can and changing the
way we speak to each other,changing the way we look at
mental health and trying tostart at the bottom and change
people's aspects and ideasaround mental health, suicide,
(32:38):
self, the connection and thecorrelation to so many harmful
things that are unfortunatelyembedded in the Australian
culture.
So shifting that and reallyreally seeing if we made an
impact that way, becauseunfortunately everything else
isn't working very well for us.
We can build million dollarsupport services and all this
sort of stuff, but I think if wego back to the roots of
(32:59):
everything and just starttalking to people and talking to
individuals, then we can have abit more of a positive impact
on this very, very toughchallenge too.
So that's the idea over thenext 24 months that's why I'm
over here is to learn from someof the best doctors and
psychiatrists and psychologistsin the world.
Personally, my passion is thismy passion is to get more people
(33:23):
talking.
So continue to do that as muchas possible you can, whilst
looking after my own mentalhealth as well, and continue to
grow in those areas as well too.
But, yeah, a lot of work to doabout a lot of work, but it'll
be never ending.
All that sort of stuff.
That's definitely work we can,we can achieve, and the best
thing about the suicideprevention space is that it's
(33:44):
very collaborative.
I'm over here with some of thebiggest organizations in the
world and some from Australia,from all over the shop and you
know, coming from when I used towork in gyms, it was very
competitive.
It was very we're the best,we're the best, all that sort of
stuff.
But in the suicide preventionspace, everybody's working
together.
Everybody's working togetherfor one goal, and you know that
(34:04):
is to prevent suicide.
So we're in a really luckyspace in the prevention space,
where everybody wants to work atthe same pace.
Everyone wants to go absolutelyas hard as we possibly can to
fix this.
So yeah, it's, I suppose, up tous to continue that work.
Carter (34:22):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
It's noble goals, very, verynoble goals.
Yet again, just because thereare comparisons to be made, I'm
I'm quite the same.
At the moment I am working ontrying to get my second
children's book published,because I believe that those
conversations surrounding men'smental health start at a young
(34:43):
age.
And I'm going even younger witha children's book titled baby
boy, it's okay to cry.
Because because I I reallythink that meaningful change
cannot, it can happen on asurface level with our
generation I'm guessing you'rearound the same age as me early
30s, mid 30s, maybe late 20s,not sure there can be some
(35:05):
change surrounding out the waywe think and the way we frame
things and the relationship thatwe already have with mental
health.
There are a lot of men out therethat are too stern in their way
of thinking with.
You know, men don't talk abouttheir emotions.
Man up, don't be a pussy, allof that rhetoric.
So, yeah, I went and wrote abook about it.
(35:27):
So future generations can, youknow, can hopefully read my book
at a young age and understand.
You know, baby boy, it's okayto cry.
There's nothing wrong withcrying If you fall over, cry If
you hurt yourself, cry If youfeel sad fucking cry Cause like
feeling is healing.
That's, that's my big thing andthat's, you know, something
(35:47):
that I'm hoping I can pass on tofuture generations to create
that meaningful change andemotional intelligence and just
willingness to communicate whatyou're feeling and how you're
feeling.
Sean (36:03):
Yeah, beautiful mate, that they can actually have an
impact on this, on mental healthand on the people's future of
mental health and suicideprevention.
Whether it be writing a book orwhether it be simply having a
conversation with your mates,it's such little things that we
can all do to actually make thatimpact.
And if we're all doing justthat one little thing again,
(36:26):
whether it be writing a book,doing a podcast or talking to
your mates, those little thingsall add up, you know 100 people
working is much more better thanyou know two people working.
So if we can get everyoneunderstanding that they can have
an impact on this conversationand on suicide prevention and on
, you know, just that idea that,yeah, boys can cry and changing
(36:47):
that stigma, everybody has animpact on that.
So getting that conversationout there as well.
We do an ambassador program withthe Shaka Project and one of
the big rules with theambassador program is that I
don't care if you've got amillion followers or five
followers, you're an ambassadorand you can be one of our
ambassadors.
(37:07):
And the idea behind that is thatwe see in this social media
world these days is this, youknow, quote-unquote influencer I
hate that term, I think it'sridiculous.
I think an influencer, someonewith influence, is someone that,
literally what I said beforetakes out their AirPods and has
a chat to the Uber driver on theway to the airport or wherever
they're going, or talks to theirfriend about what they're
(37:29):
concerned about.
That's an influencer.
An influencer isn't someonethat's got 5 million followers
and hosts their perfect dayevery day.
That's not putting influence onpeople's lives.
Influence is something that weall can do in a very, very
minuscule sort of impact way aswell.
So having that idea thateveryone can make an impact
wherever they are, whoever theyare, no matter how many
(37:51):
followers they've got all thesedifferent things is something
really, really powerful that wecan all do to create that change
and adapt the conversation aswell.
Carter (37:59):
So how can people get involved, how can people become
ambassadors, how can peopledonate or anything like that?
Sean (38:07):
Yeah, just jump on the Instagram, the shaka project.
That's probably where youyou'll find everything.
So all their social media thereand t-shirts, all this, all the
merchandise, all that sort ofstuff I'll try and post three or
four times every day just toyou know, keep everyone, I
suppose, getting that thatimpactful content, giving back
as much as possible you can.
So jump on there, share it withyour friends, share it with
(38:28):
your family members.
But I think the biggest thingthat everyone can do to help
this, this cause, is just totalk to their mates, check in
with their mates.
You know, if you're drivingright now or you're going for a
walk, you know after the podcast, give them a call and just
check in.
That's, that's the biggestthing.
I don't care if we sell onet-shirt for the next five months
.
If we can start 100conversations just by people
(38:49):
messaging their mates, thenthat's much better than selling
a couple t-shirts and andgetting some some donations.
Carter (38:55):
So that's um, yeah, one thing I'll definitely ask for
sure, awesome if you don't mindme asking, just because I know a
lot of people like fullvisibility when it comes to
charities, the the profits madefrom from the sale of t-shirts
does.
Uh, where does that go?
Sean (39:11):
so well because we are a non-for-profit.
The, the t-shirts, the salesfrom the t-shirts goes back into
the non-for-profits as twoentities, but most of our
donations and stuff um arethrough crowdfunding.
So, for example, we did the uhrun for our mates just a couple
of months ago and thatessentially helped us go to.
Well it's still.
It's still working.
We're still doing it.
(39:32):
Present free workshops atschools, at sporting clubs, at,
you know, work sites, communityorganizations, all these
different places that you knowcan't get the funding for
different workshops and events,so we'll go over to schools.
We've done about five schoolsin the last couple of weeks.
Actually it's been pretty busywork.
A couple of weeks for schoolsprobably go there, do some
(39:53):
workshops with the year 7students through the year 12,
and that's essentially where alot of their funding goes is to
is to be able to get there andto to do all these things for
free for the schools and for thestudents beautiful, perfect,
awesome.
Carter (40:05):
Well, I reckon that will wrap us up.
Thank you again for joining meand have an amazing time in
Bangkok, learning from theworld's leaders in psychology
and psychiatry and mental health.
It's super exciting.
I'm going to be picking yourbrain over the next week trying
to get some information formyself as well no, thank you,
(40:29):
mate, appreciate it always,always happy to share no worries
now, everyone, make sure you gofollow the shaka project on
instagram, check out theirwebsite, buy their merch.
It's an absolutely incrediblecause and, sean you, you really
should be proud of yourself,mate.
You are making change and I'mproud of you, and you know we're
friends now, whether you likeit or not.
(40:50):
I'm going to go buy some merchas soon as we're done.
Sean (40:54):
Thank you, mate.
I really appreciate it.
Thank you.
Speaker 4 (40:58):
To make it so my life's a better place.
If there's one thing I see,then your only thing is me Just
knowing that I'm trying to makea change.
Can I put it all on meResponsibilities, and all the
(41:27):
other nonsense coming byrepeating it?
There's one thing I knowpossibilities and all the other
nonsense coming by repeatedly.
There's one thing I know it'sknowing to let go.
Just knowing that I'm trying tomake a change doesn't seem too
much just to ask for love,because there's many things that
(41:50):
I do over and I've got a lot,but I won't give up On those
many things that I do over.
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