February 9, 2022 • 40 mins
Miriam Hitchcock is a California based artist, mother and teacher, who has had a fascinating and prestigious career that has taken her from San Francisco, to Yale to Italy and back again. We dig into the "boys club" that was present in the east coast art scene when she was there, living in Italy, the east coast vs. west coast critiques, the "camp" of abstraction, motherhood, and more.
Miriam primarily makes paintings often using eccentric shaped formats. She uses a hybrid visual language that is both abstract and figurative, fusing domestic and landscape elements. To me, her work is simultaneously quirky and elegant. Her shaped substrates have an animated quality that magically work with her simplified forms and colors.
Miriam's home and studio are on an Arroyo and Santa Cruz, California, where she lives with her spouse, two cats and an Australian shepherd, a bay area, native Merriam completed her BFA at the university of California, Santa Cruz, and received her MFA in painting from Yale.
She began teaching, painting, drawing, and design at Brown and Rhode Island school of design. She was also an assistant professor at Cornell university led studio courses in Rome ,Italy through both Cornell and the American university. Returning to live in Santa Cruz in 1990, she taught drawing and painting courses at Stanford and San Jose state. She was a continuous member of the art faculty at university of California, Santa Cruz from 1992, until 2012.
Miriam's website: http://www.miriamhitchcock.com
Miriam's work on Jen Tough Gallery: https://jentough.gallery/collections/miriam-hitchcock
Miriam's work on Artsy: https://www.artsy.net/artist/miriam-hitchcock/works-for-sale
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Episode Transcript
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Jen Tough (00:00):
Welcome to Tough on Art, the podcast for artists
interested in ways to get aheadin today's art market.
I'm Jen Tough owner of Jen ToughGallery and the Artist Alliance
community.
Join me for some down to earth.
Talk about the best ways forartists to navigate this new and
different landscape.
I'm very excited today topresent this interview.
with Santa Cruz, Californiabased artist, Miriam Hitchcock.
(00:23):
But before we get started, Iwant to personally invite you to
become a member of the ArtistAlliance, where we're one month
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Miriam primarily makes paintingsoften using eccentric shaped
(01:06):
formats.
She uses a hybrid visuallanguage that is both abstract
and figurative, fusing domesticand landscape elements.
To me, her work issimultaneously quirky and
elegant.
Her shaped substrates have ananimated quality that magically
work with her simplified formsand colors.
Miriam's home and studio are onan Arroyo and Santa Cruz,
(01:27):
California, where she lives withher spouse, two cats and an
Australian shepherd, a bay area,native Merriam completed her BFA
at the university of California,Santa Cruz, and received her MFA
in painting from Yale.
She began teaching, painting,drawing, and design at Brown and
Rhode Island school of design.
She was also an assistantprofessor at Cornell university
(01:48):
led studio courses in Rome,Italythrough both Cornell and the
American university.
Returning to live in Santa Cruzin 1990, she taught drawing and
painting courses at Stanford andSan Jose state.
She was a continuous member ofthe art faculty at university of
California, Santa Cruz from1992, until 2012, you can find
Miriam's work on the Jen Toughgallery website on Artsy and on
(02:11):
Miriam's website.
All links of course are in theshow notes.
I can't wait to get started.
So, hi everybody.
Welcome to Tough on Art.
I'm Jen, and today I am talkingto the infamous Miriam Hitchcock
and Mariam you're in Santa Cruzright now, right?
Miriam Hitchcock (02:29):
Yes, I am
Jen Tough (02:30):
And you're in a cold studio.
I understand.
Miriam Hitchcock (02:33):
It's it's gradually warming up.
Jen Tough (02:36):
Yeah.
Everybody thinks thatCalifornia's always so warm.
Like when I was living in Ohio,you know, I remember the first
time I went to San Francisco, itwas like in, you know, I was
maybe like 14 and I thought, oh,you know, you always just think
of LA or San Diego.
Right.
If you think it's always goingto be, you know, beachy and, and
it's not, it can be cold.
It can even be cold in LA andSouthern California
Miriam Hitchcock (02:58):
and San Francisco famously gets very,
very cold.
Well, my studio is a convertedgarage, so.
There's a cement floor and I'vegot a rubber a rubber floor
covering the cement, but youknow, it's slow to heat up.
It's actually great in the heatof the summer.
And we really do have a lot ofthose days.
So this is a really great placeto be in the warmer months.
Jen Tough (03:22):
Yeah.
So how long have you been inSanta Cruz or California?
Tell me about your background.
Miriam Hitchcock (03:27):
Well, I was born in California.
I was born in San Francisco andgrew up on the peninsula and and
then I went see, I went tocollege in Santa Cruz.
I love Santa Cruz early on.
So this is going back a ways.
This is like the seventies and.
You know, I love this place.
It's a, it's a very special sortof location.
You know, there's a surf andsand and there's a beautiful
(03:53):
Redwood forest and great hikingpaths and good birding.
And it's just a lovely place.
And back when I originally wasattracted to the place, it was
very counter cold.
Yeah.
I was at like a hippy campus andyou know, plop right down in the
middle of this beautiful Redwoodforest.
So you know, that I would justkind of grew up as a kind of
(04:14):
quintessential say hippie,California girl.
And I didn't really get aperspective on that at all until
I moved east for grad school.
And so I went to grad school,started teaching, tried to stay
in and around New York bouncedback and forth a little bit.
(04:34):
But I moved back here afterteaching my job at Cornell,
which was a three-year job.
And part of that three-year job,I got to go to Italy and teach.
I was teaching Cornell studentsin Italy, so that was.
But I I felt really pressed uponthe the full-time faculty duties
(04:55):
were really rough on me forvarious reasons has three year
old.
And I decided to take a year'sleave of absence and come back
to Santa Cruz.
And my partner had a littlehouse here.
So once I got here, I reallydidn't want to go back to
academia in that way, in thatsame role.
So I stayed and my partnerstarted making work, making some
(05:19):
money so that we had a twoworking household.
And he's an electrician or wasan electrician.
And I started teaching part-timeand that, that worked great.
So I taught, I've taught in thisarea.
Part-time it was really likecoming home and you know, I've
realized that home is importantto me and my daughter.
(05:39):
I love the idea of raising mydaughter in California and
having her be at California.
She was starting to develop astrange accent.
So I just had to get back.
You know, I knew it would comewith sacrifices because the art
world was very, even moremonolithic back then and around
(06:00):
New York and even the LA scenewas really up and running.
So I knew it'd be in an isolatedlocation, but my, my academic
duties had kept me in a veryisolated place anyway.
So I decided to just.
Go back and regroup.
And I stayed.
So for, you know, since 1992 to2012, I was just sort of
(06:24):
teaching in and around thisarea, mostly at UCSC back at
UCSC very different department,very different environment than
the one that I studied in.
I loved teaching.
But then the time came to sortof step away.
And when I could step away, Idid, that was in 2012.
So now I have I don't have tojuggle, you know, my life in the
(06:48):
classroom and the moneymaking.
With my studio life.
When so many years was the bigissue, you know, from a raising
my daughter and grabbing hoursbetween naps.
All that picking her up fromschool last year.
So you know, I have really hadthree jobs for a long time.
Like, I mean, this is prettytypical, probably.
(07:09):
So I had raising a daughter,even though I had a partner
helped me with that and I hadthe teaching for money and then
I had, you know, trying to getin my studio every minute.
And it's nice to have a morerelaxed.
You know, own your own time now.
I mean, it's an amazing luxury.
I wake up and, you know, I lookon my partner and say, isn't it
(07:31):
pretty?
We don't have to go to work.
You know, I do work and I alwaysget sort of bristled when people
say I'm a, a woman of leisure orsomething because I do work very
hard as GM.
I love, I love being in here.
I put in a lot of hours and andit's great.
I finally have a nice kind of.
Versatile space so that I canwork on paper.
I can work on the floor.
(07:52):
I have an animation table, whichis a very kind of crude set up
with an overhead camera mountand I can move between works on
paper and paintings prettyeasily.
So all that, an answer to thequestion of how long am I going
to Santa Cruz?
Jen Tough (08:08):
Well, let's go back a little bit to when you said that
you first went to the east coastin California, when was that?
Was that when you went for gradschool?
Miriam Hitchcock (08:18):
Yes, I went to grad school
Jen Tough (08:19):
at Yale what year was that., that
Miriam Hitchcock (08:23):
was 79.
Jen Tough (08:24):
Oh, cause you know what I remember hearing, I was
in college in the eighties,early eighties, and I remember
hearing or sorry, mid eighties.
What am I saying?
I remember hearing how sexistand boys' club Yale was in their
painting department.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Miriam Hitchcock (08:40):
I mean, they they were, they were aware of
it.
I think that, you know, I meanthe whole context for art making
was still very by.
It was really pronounced and itwasn't.
I got to the east coast and tograd school that I had female
(09:00):
teachers in painting.
So they had a very predominantlymale faculty, but they made sure
that they had visiting artiststhat were women and some
visiting artists came in andstayed for a year and taught
classes, you know, so it waslike a temporary position.
And so in that.
(09:21):
I got to work with Judy Fath andElizabeth Murry and that, that
was just like amazingly greatfor me, you know?
And like just to yeah, I mean,in so many subtle and big ways
talking to a woman and seeinghow they navigate seeing how
they teach to, because.
The model of teaching that I'dsort of gone through, I wasn't
(09:44):
particularly happy with.
So, you know, it helped me findmy feet and it was an exciting
time to be there, although itwas a very polarized sort of a
scene there, there was thefigurative artists and there was
the abstractionists and I Kindof, you know, I have been happy
sort of bridging both inundergrad.
And when I went to Yale I sortof joined the abstract camp.
(10:09):
And and I did that for the fulltime I was there actually for
about 10 years I paintedabstractly.
And it was a nice way for me tosort of.
Understand formal issues.
You know, it was kind of a, itwas kind of a path clearing for
me.
Everything kind of laid bare sothat I could concentrate on the
formal issues.
(10:30):
I really hadn't heard even heardthe word formal until I went to
graduate school.
So I had a lot of catching up todo.
My, my peers, there all seemedmore.
In tuned with what was going on.
A lot of them had gone to artschools.
A lot of them were from NewYork.
It was a big culture clash forme, and I didn't feel it so much
(10:52):
as a sexist environment as justa huge culture class coming from
you know, my free love hippiehippie days to you know, New
Haven is a pretty harsh urban.
I dunno if they've improved it,but you know, you had to really
be on guard.
I was living in the city for thefirst time there.
Jen Tough (11:16):
Yeah.
I.
When I lived in Los I lived inLos Angeles most of my life.
And even just going in thenineties, I moved to
Philadelphia for a job.
And the, there was a cultureclash for sure.
I mean, I remember, you know,first I gave up my car, you
know, which was, that wasenough, but it just, even just
(11:36):
the you know, just the.
The sort of the interactionsthat you have with people in
stores or you know, everybodyhonked, you know, like even if
you're a red light car, cars arehonking, you know, and it was
just this sort of, this there'slike this compared to
California, there's like thisaggression kind of, you know,
Miriam Hitchcock (11:53):
and there, there is people feel each other
out and just interact.
Differently.
I mean, I don't know to what ascent is still like that, but it
was, it was very conspicuous tome and I I sort of just shut up
and watched for awhile.
And my unlike a lot of peoplewho sort of found graduate
school could be kind of afinishing school and they bounce
(12:15):
out on the art scene.
For me, it was a very turbulenttime of self examination in
terms of art-making and youknow, it was very disruptive and
there's a lot about people in mywork.
I didn't really make good workthere, but I it was, you know,
really critical to mydevelopment, you know, and I
really loved the fact that I cango there.
(12:38):
And I can go and listen tocritiques where people cared
about painting.
They cared about painting somuch that they argued and they,
you know, they argued with youknow, Gusto.
It was exciting.
Because part of the difficultyof that I found I'm being a
painter out here and being anartist in general.
(12:58):
The isolation had finding peoplewho care as much as you do about
it.
So it really gave me that.
And I just ate it up I ate itup.
It was a huge growing period forme.
Jen Tough (13:10):
Yeah.
There's the difference incurrent between east coast and
west could somebody could writea book on that because people on
the west coast, I think arelike, they're afraid of hurting
feelings.
You know, and so there, youknow, I'm not really sure how
constructive sometimes crits canbe, because there's just this
(13:30):
general culture of, you know,not wanting to hurt feelings.
And so, you know, there's just,there's a lot of priority put on
expression versus like more ofthose formal things that you
touched on, you know, in, in inschool It's it's interesting,
but I mean, it sounds likeyou're, you know, just basically
stressed out while you were ingrad school.
It just, this culturaldifference.
(13:51):
Right?
Miriam Hitchcock (13:53):
Well, I was just immensely stimulated, you
know, I mean, it was, it wasreally thrilling.
It was really very exciting,more than stressed out.
I mean, I suppose I was, Iremember that I'd lay in bed at
night and I would have like aslideshow of images going
through my head.
I was just being bombarded with.
New ideas, new imagery.
(14:15):
I was working really hard, longhours in studio and arguing and
talking with other, with mypeers and yeah.
It's kind of nice that what usedto be more, maybe more so it's
nice that the academic settingcan give the the person who is
the faculty member, the.
(14:36):
Permission to be critical, youknow, and that's a lot harder to
get among your peers.
I mean, it's, it's rare that youcan never friendship.
I do have some thankfully whereyou can actually say, you know,
that's not working and this iswhy I think so, you know?
And that's, that's so important.
Jen Tough (14:53):
It is important.
How was it when you were inItaly teaching?
What was that?
What was that like?
Miriam Hitchcock (15:00):
Well, it was my first time in Italy, which
was kind of odd.
I, I was asked to teach there.
Actually, I volunteered to teachthere after the person who was
supposed to, who was in line togo, who is.
Also a fairly new facultymember, but she dropped out.
She had sort of a personalissue.
And so I was really the onlychoice of the faculty and I was
(15:24):
really green and, you know, I'mnever having been to Italy.
So I was in the art and art inan art and architecture program
and we were right in centralhistorical in the plotso of
Masimo and I had a group ofabout 10 students.
So really small compared to theclasses I was used to teaching,
(15:44):
I took only 10 students overwith me.
And a lot of what we did therewas just interfacing with the
city and learning aboutarchitecture on the side,
because we had this very strongarchitectural program that we
were attached to.
And it's just obviously thething to do when you're in Rome,
because it's a monumental placewith such deep history.
(16:06):
And I, I got along pretty wellthere.
I've S I've since taught inItaly, so it's hard for me to
remember back to my Cornell timein Italy.
I had, we had a little studio inthe basement.
And a pretty good group of kidsCornell students in general, or
well-prepared to concentrate ontheir work.
And so that wasn't an issue.
(16:27):
It was, it was great experience.
Hardest thing was having athree-year-old daughter.
So thankfully I took my partnerwith me and he was kind of my
wife.
But he put our three-year-olddaughter on a bus out of town
every morning where she goes tothe American school and she
learned to count with her thumbfirst.
You know, she displaying somereal at times.
She's got a great accent still,even though she doesn't really
(16:50):
speak it.
So that was, you know, teachingand having you know, demands of
the job and the workplace whileyou have young kids is
stressful.
So.
It was without a doubt,stressful, but also just,
they're very cool, verystimulating, very eye opening.
I mean, Rome was a place whereyou can stand on a corner and
(17:11):
really see the layers ofhistory.
And for California, you know,just about knocks you down,
it's, it's phenomenal, you know,to get that tangible glimpse
time, really the evidence.
So I kind of craved that as aCalifornia and I think it, it
has informed the fact that whenI travel, I like to go to
ancient places.
(17:31):
And so in general, when I thinkback on teaching for Cornell,
the first time it was, it wasgreat.
The chair of the Italian segmentwas you know, Roberto Ionadi.
And he was in charge ofrestoration of monuments.
He had this he's from a veryprominent family and he had this
(17:54):
great sort of entree to thesites.
So for instance, when we went toPompei, he had the keys and he
would open the doors that wereusually locked to them, to the
public.
There were field trips, almostinvolved in it.
And Yeah, again, that wholeimmersion and a new culture was
exciting and stimulating andwonderful life.
(18:17):
I've gone back many, many timesseem to go back just better
chance I get.
And if I'm planning a trip, Iusually try and put a few days
in Rome there.
Cause I've gotten to know itpretty well.
It's nice.
It's a place that.
Land, and don't have to look ata map, you know, which is kind
of great, you know, cause whenyou try to be so stressful and I
(18:37):
have, you know, favorite placesto visit and it's good.
I've had a lot of chance to drawfrom a lot of the collections
there now.
It's a great place and I didn'twant to come back to Ithica and
New York where Cornell is causethat's there in the cold
(18:58):
Northeast part of the Northeastand they are, they still have
jackets on and have freezing icestorms in March sometimes.
So again, being in Californiaand then that was so.
Difficult.
And actually my life at Cornellwas far more difficult than my
life when I was teaching inItaly or at Cornell, that was
(19:19):
kind of a nice vacation,although there's plenty of work
to do vacation from colleagues.
I mean, those that's sort of Ivyleague and the schools can
really have a lot of tensionbetween faculty members and.
Yeah, there were lawsuitsbetween faculty members.
There's a lot of unpleasantdrama.
(19:40):
I mean, he wasn't involved, butthere was a lot of a lot of
tension kind of
Jen Tough (19:45):
lawsuits with would teachers have it gets, I mean,
don't give names, but
Miriam Hitchcock (19:51):
there was one I remember.
Yeah, I think that was the bigone.
And then there were other, therewas always, people were very
private, you know, there wasalways I think it was very
compartmentalized.
Like it every, every action waspolitical, but that again was
very uncomfortable and very newfor me.
(20:12):
It became like a politicalissue.
If you said hi to somebody inthe It was kind of very, very
hard.
Jen Tough (20:18):
It wasn't competitive.
Was that the thing like the,
Miriam Hitchcock (20:21):
jostling for advancement within the faculty?
I mean, I dunno if this is veryinteresting, but usually there,
the entering younger faculty getpressed upon to do a lot of
duties.
They're sort of provingthemselves.
So I did, I had, I had a lot of,this is partly why I had to
leave in three years.
So I've had a lot of extra stuffto do.
(20:43):
And they had a small graduateprogram.
So I was teaching classes ofvery serious, big classes of
serious art students.
And then I was teaching gradschool.
And I had a very young daughterand I had all this unpleasant
colleagues.
Jen Tough (21:01):
It sounds pretty awful.
Miriam Hitchcock (21:03):
Yeah.
I mean, I always kind of I waskind of an idiot about the fact
that you need alliances and youneed to make alliances.
I only gradually became theeverybody else around me was
thinking very strategicallyabout who was on their side, if
a boat came to the faculty tableand that sort of thing.
And I tried to avoid it and itwas only to my detriment really,
(21:24):
because I didn't really havestrong Allegiances
Jen Tough (21:30):
also where people were professors sort of, did
they advance through the ranksbased on how much, I mean, I'm
just talking about artprofessors, you know, based on
their reputation outside of theschool or was it yeah.
Miriam Hitchcock (21:48):
And you know, like a lot of academic jobs you
advance as soon as somebody elsewants to hire you.
And that happened if you wereexhibiting and yeah, you're
always, I mean, I was always, Iwas driving to New York, which
is a long and horrendous drive,especially in the weather or the
world.
And I'm trying to keep anddevelop you know, a network
(22:11):
there.
Right.
So it was a lot to do.
It was, I burned out really
Jen Tough (22:18):
that's a lot.
Cause I mean, plus you'redealing with all this sort of
subtle or not so subtle sexismfor sure.
You know, and just trying to betaken seriously, you know, sort
of not looked at as highly as a,as a white male, you know, just
in society.
That's a lot, that's a lot todeal with and being a mom.
Miriam Hitchcock (22:43):
Yeah.
I mean we were aware, I wasaware that I was one of the
early female.
I was a very young femalefaculty member.
But honestly I spent more timethinking about.
You know, advancing myself thanI did about the fact that I was
being looked down upon because Iwas a woman.
(23:03):
I, there definitely was a sensethat you had to prove yourself.
And maybe that was greaterbecause I was carrying a lot of
baggage about, you know,imposter syndrome, you know, can
I do this?
And that's right.
Jen Tough (23:16):
Yeah.
I mean, isn't it weird?
I don't know if you found this,but like, I think back in like
the eighties and nineties, likewhen I was, you know, when I was
working or when, you know youknow, sort of advancing through
my career, you don't reallylike, you know, it's there like
the sexism and stuff, but Ididn't really notice how bad it
was until like, I look back onit 20 years later and then I'm
(23:39):
like, holy shit.
How, what, you know, You know,and I don't know if that's
because I've changed and maturedor if it's because the world's
changed and it's like, okay, totalk about it now, or I don't
know.
What do you think,
Miriam Hitchcock (23:56):
talk about it now without being immediately
label the problem, right?
Yeah, no.
I mean when I was first gettinginterviewed for jobs, I was
asked if I was married.
And if you were, that was aproblem, you know, that then
they'd sort of say, well, youknow, they sort of feel out how
(24:17):
much your partner made and washe willing to move?
And that sort of thing.
I know lots of questions thatare off limits.
I also had the uncomfortablefeeling of going through all the
interviews with all malefaculty.
One time being asked out, likeambiguously asked out right
after the interview.
Jen Tough (24:37):
Oh my God.
Miriam Hitchcock (24:39):
I mean, just stuff that I think women knew
not to do, but yeah.
Jen Tough (24:48):
Yeah.
So how do you think all of thesesort of experiences, all these,
you know, Italy and this sortof, you know, rough, I mean, it
sounds rough like this eastcoast rough, right?
Like we would have been for metoo, I think for anybody, any
woman, I think in that position.
I mean, I remember when I firstsaw on your resume that you, you
(25:08):
know, you got your master's atYale and I was like, whoa.
Cause I just remember hearingstories about the painting
department in particular.
Miriam Hitchcock (25:16):
Oh, did you?
Yeah.
What might've generated that?
I mean, there was some Bruno.
Yeah, you're tough guys.
And yeah, there was a lot ofsexism for sure.
Jen Tough (25:28):
So how do you think, do you think that all, I mean,
it has to have informed yourwork at this point.
Like just all of theseexperiences have sort of fed
into what you're producing now,but do you see any like direct.
Sort of correlation or responseto those experiences?
Miriam Hitchcock (25:47):
Particular.
I mean, it's interesting.
I am not an artist who can takeon a.
Political or social issuestraight on.
I started doing incrementallyand sort of choose my places and
it's become apparent to me thatmy work has really filtered
through autobiography.
And I, I think I could haveconsciously made a choice to to
(26:10):
use a lot of female charactersin the, the figures that I've
used.
I had a strange experience whenI started to the figure again, I
really just sort of felt like Ihad to learn how.
If I would do it, if I wouldjust sit down and generate a
figure, it would be a malefigure which was really weird.
(26:30):
And so I felt like I had to sortof, well, I had to learn the
figure and I felt like inparticular, I needed to figure
out the female figure and howthat could be used and should be
used.
Especially since it was socharged.
Thinking back on sentences inthe art, it can feel within
models who were always femalenudes and that was never
(26:51):
discussed really.
And that was my experience, youknow, I learned to draw female
nudes and I think I've kind offound my comfort and greatest
area of interest in the clothedfigure.
And I love the female clothedfigure.
I mean, it's, it's endlesswonderful, really.
(27:12):
And that's, that's been kind ofan evolution it's kinda hard to
track, but I know initially mysort of breakthrough moment when
I found myself unable to avoidthe figure anymore was after
having my daughter and drawingher head.
And it sort of evolved fromthere.
I didn't really embracefiguration again until I moved
(27:34):
back to Santa Cruz in 1992.
So I have.
It's history on the east coastwhere people knew me as an
abstractionist and a.
And because of that sort of hardpolarity and sort of two camp
system that I, you know, thatwas really visceral back then.
I mean, it, it does exist insome form.
(27:54):
Now there was a sense that, youknow, you were leaving the clan
or, you know, you're, there'ssome portrayal there by, by
breaking it up and leaving.
And I, you know, I have goodfemale friends who are
abstractionists and I know.
Difficulty and them acceptingthis.
You know, there's a sense that,and I really had strong
(28:17):
conviction that abstracting is acomplete language and I loved it
a lot.
And so for me, the process ofembracing figuration and putting
that in the mix was you know,finding a way for them to come
and say you know, overtly, Icertainly there's a lot about
the tradition of figurativepainting that doesn't interest
(28:37):
me in the least.
So that's why I say sometimes ifI'm an abstractionist who ran
out of reasons to haveeliminates figure.
Yeah.
I still think very abstractlythen.
I don't know.
I can't even remember youroriginal question at this point.
Jen Tough (28:54):
Well, it doesn't matter.
What is, you said that you foundthat, that you find the female
form endlessly.
Wonderful.
Miriam Hitchcock (29:01):
Yeah.
Well, the figure in general, butthe female form, especially
yeah, I mean the sense theopportunity to deal with drape.
Yeah.
The, the sort of S socialsignaling and history of fashion
is is a part of it.
And you know, that's, that'skind of wonderful.
So that becomes a part of a mix.
(29:22):
I did a series this is a littlebit of a tangent, but it reminds
me a lot of my use of the femalefigure.
I experienced a very tragicdeath in my family 1995.
And I became really obsessedwith the afterlife with people
who were meeting deathsunprepared.
(29:45):
And I was thinking a lot aboutthis kind of limbo state I
obviously was in crisis and Iwas also in therapy and reading
Realta cause he helped he'sreally one of the few authors I
could find that kind of when atit yes, an afterlife.
And so in that.
And sort of time period.
(30:06):
Let's see.
That's like the 1990s, late1990s.
I was I started the painting, alot of aftermath and ruin and
this kind of quasi limbo stateof a person being, meeting death
and being unprepared for it.
And Sort of coming to terms withit and meaning how they looked.
(30:27):
I mean, it's a great mystery,right?
It is a great mystery.
And because I had lost somebodyvery close to me and I think
that person was unprepared fordeath.
I was really consumed with thismean, it's very personal, but it
was part of feeling like thatperson didn't need me anymore.
And did that, you know, causewhen something tragic happens to
somebody you're close to and youweren't there, there's just a
(30:48):
tremendous amount of grief andconcern.
That's hard to let go.
Anyway, that project sort ofculminated in.
These, this body of work thatwas really about heaven and
imagined heaven I don't reallybelieve in the Christian idea of
heaven it was after life.
And I discovered that in thatafterlife that I was creating,
(31:11):
the people were reallywell-dressed.
I mean, they were fashionableand and that was really fun.
So I was just I sort of gavemyself permission to.
You know, from this having beenin this very abstract territory
and sort of rudimentary, reallyrudimentary, really dealing with
the figure and as quasi abstractway, then suddenly I was dealing
(31:32):
with the details of fashion, youknow, the curve of a collar and,
you know, the length of thedress.
I was looking a lot of thirtiesand forties women.
Yeah.
So I sort of the dike brokethere about that being that
being possible for me, you know,cause I'm aware that I'm still
(31:53):
you know, I'm still reallyrooted in that abstract language
and also in that kind ofpolarity.
It's hard for me to I'm alwaysasking myself questions about
it.
So, anyway, that was animportant body of work.
I was glad to step away from itwhen I could.
But I found that at that point,I, you know, it was obvious to
me that I was interested in thedraped figure and that, you
(32:16):
know, I could look at fashionmagazines for God's sake and I
could enjoy them and I couldbring them into my paintings
and.
You know, that we were talkingabout before, about sexism and
you question about the femalebody, you know, it was so
difficult, such a very difficultsubject because I'd seen it
(32:36):
dealt with so poorly.
So I, I sort of kind of found myway through the draped to figure
and through really lifting fromfashion.
Jen Tough (32:51):
Do you think that, you know, sometimes I think
there's always, you know, eventhough artists are sort of known
as rulebreakers and in, in onesense they're told you need to
be a rule breaker to, you know,To sort of make your mark in a
way, but yet at the same time,there's always these rules of
art school and rules of the artworld.
Like you're sort of touching on,you said you gave yourself
(33:14):
permission to explore thisother.
Miriam Hitchcock (33:18):
Yeah.
I mean, it's, it's hard toadmit, but that's, you know,
where I sort of developed.
This, these notions about ruleswas also a really critical
period of growth where I reallygot attached to what I was
making in a, in a deep way.
And I didn't want to lose sightof that.
(33:39):
You know, my, a lot of my heroesare abstractionists and
certainly Elizabeth Murray.
So I I always ask myself, youknow it's always a question.
And I think that slows me down.
I see artists who don't havethat sort of, they don't have to
check in with their history inthat way.
And it looks like it's a lot offun, but for me, I always, I
(34:04):
always make changes veryincrementally.
And I always question, I, itreminds me of that.
Painful period outside, justoutside of grad school, where I
went in the studio and it wasliterally like I had 10 artists
sitting there, 10 famousartists, you know, there'd be
(34:24):
Hans Hoffman.
There'd be L hell, there'd beElizabeth Murray.
There'd be Monet there'd be, youknow, just out read David Smith
and I was so sort of critical.
And so I'm concerned with theyou know, with the tradition, I
(34:44):
guess really I'm finding myplace in it and And I was so
isolated, actually that it tookme a long time to get those
people out of my studio.
And so they wouldn't beat me upand keep me from doing things,
but it was really like that for,for a while for me.
And it's not anymore, which isnice.
Now I can, I can think aboutthat angle.
(35:06):
You know, like there's this bigJoni Mitchell show here and San
Francisco, and it was easy toproject myself back to the
seventies and eighties andabstract, especially as I'm of
course I'm the sort of aftermathor the sort of second generation
abstract expressionists.
And it was interesting to lookat that work that was so.
(35:29):
Central to my thinking and somuch part of my my initial sort
of growth and development is.
No.
I really thought of myself as aexpressionistic and accent,
especially as to the extent thatI, you know, started smoking,
you know?
So it was weird and reallyinteresting to get some
perspective on that work.
I may have felt very far awayfrom it.
(35:51):
There was, I admired the workbut I didn't love the work.
You know, there was occasionalpaintings that I felt like I
really loved, but.
It's funny.
I mean, that, that's kind of awonderful, ongoing thing where
artists look different to you atdifferent times.
So it was, it was fun justrecently to check in with
(36:12):
abstract expressionism in thatway with Joni Mitchell.
Jen Tough (36:17):
Well, you know, you're not the only one who said
that in some ways art school canruin you, you know, like, right.
Like you always have thosevoices in your head and you
mentioned.
You know, you see other peoplewho are abstract expressions
now, and they don't have thosevoices.
They don't have those rules.
And those, those, those interiorcritics that are always, you
(36:39):
know, to break free from that toa certain degree, that's like an
art in itself.
Right.
Miriam Hitchcock (36:46):
It's a process.
And some people seem to do itmore easily than others, but you
know, I think that I I generallywant to behave well, I'm not a
re I'm not a rebel, you know?
So it was hard for me.
I wanted those heroes of mine tobe comfortable with what I was
doing.
So I was always checking in.
I mean, it's kind of a imposterscenario that I'm talking about,
(37:07):
but it took a while.
Jen Tough (37:09):
Yeah.
I mean, I think it, it, I think,especially for women who go
through that, absolutely.
You know, because you wentthrough that very traditional,
very prestigious, you know, pathof the way things should be
quote unquote and.
It takes a lot of liberation, Ithink.
Miriam Hitchcock (37:28):
Yeah.
Oh yeah.
And then of course there was aperiod late, late nineties,
early two thousands.
When people really weren'tinterested in painting.
But the art world is showingexibit exhibiting marketplace
seem to be shrinking to twopainters that just like, and
(37:52):
there was an academic had, therewas a lot of our open hostility
to painting as a privileged,medium, and.
Yeah, that was a big politicaloverlay.
There always is.
But especially in academia.
So as I continue to teach, I hadto sort of deal with that.
And you know, their isolationwas very miserable.
(38:14):
It's hard to be in Santa Cruz.
You know, I show there's almostno place to exhibit here, so I.
Yeah, I can go outside of thearea, which I, I try and do.
Often Yeah, it's like kind ofgot lost in my thoughts.
Jen Tough (38:31):
No.
That's okay.
This has been, so I love thisconversation with you so much.
Miriam Hitchcock (38:37):
Oh my gosh the time.
Jen Tough (38:41):
Was, it was, it was really, I really valued this
time with you Miriam a lot.
It was great.
Thanks for sharing so much.
And I, I have so much admirationtruly for.
You know, for not only for yourwork, but for what you went
through, you know, as a woman, Imean, not saying you're like,
(39:01):
you know, a victim or anything,but I mean, that's a lot of shit
to deal with back then.
Miriam Hitchcock (39:06):
Yeah.
Jen Tough (39:07):
And you know, you definitely deserve a lot of, you
know, you got my respect for
Miriam Hitchcock (39:13):
that because there were role models.
Thankfully.
I mean, there were out there.
Yeah,
Jen Tough (39:20):
but those are rough days for women in art,
especially painters
Miriam Hitchcock (39:26):
feel they're getting better.
And yeah.
And people like you, I think areimmediately taking those biases
head on, which is reallywonderful to see biases of
gender and age and evengeographic region.
Jen Tough (39:41):
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know,what the, what the eighties and
seventies, eighties, andnineties, you know, for women,
like, you know, that sort ofdiscrimination and, or, you
know, I was never blatant.
It was just, you know, it wasquiet, but it was there, but now
it's, it's it's to me.
Biggest issue is is age-ism.
I mean, it's just, it's really?
(40:03):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's really, it's really bad.
So anyway, thank you for joiningme.
Miriam Hitchcock (40:09):
It's really nice to have a chance to talk to
you.
Jen Tough (40:15):
Yeah, thank you so much for listening and
supporting this podcast.
Your support means everything.
If you'd like to learn moreabout the Artist Alliance
community, send me a question orlearn about other events or
projects coming up, please visitmy website at
www.Jentough.gallery.
See you next time.
Welcome to Tough on Art, the podcast for artists
interested in ways to get aheadin today's art market.
I'm Jen Tough owner of Jen ToughGallery and the Artist Alliance
community.
Join me for some down to earth.
Talk about the best ways forartists to navigate this new and
different landscape.
I'm very excited today topresent this interview.
with Santa Cruz, Californiabased artist, Miriam Hitchcock.
(00:23):
But before we get started, Iwant to personally invite you to
become a member of the ArtistAlliance, where we're one month
into our stay at home winterresidency, the Artist Alliance
offers emerging and mid-careerartists of any medium and style,
a community of like-mindedfriendly and supportive artists.
of all levels.
We also offer a ton ofinformative workshops and
(00:45):
meetups promotion on ourInstagram channel challenges and
exhibitions where members earn ahundred percent on any sales
membership is only 36 bucks amonth.
You guys cancel any time.
So join us.
Sign up at Artist Alliancemembership.com.
Miriam primarily makes paintingsoften using eccentric shaped
(01:06):
formats.
She uses a hybrid visuallanguage that is both abstract
and figurative, fusing domesticand landscape elements.
To me, her work issimultaneously quirky and
elegant.
Her shaped substrates have ananimated quality that magically
work with her simplified formsand colors.
Miriam's home and studio are onan Arroyo and Santa Cruz,
(01:27):
California, where she lives withher spouse, two cats and an
Australian shepherd, a bay area,native Merriam completed her BFA
at the university of California,Santa Cruz, and received her MFA
in painting from Yale.
She began teaching, painting,drawing, and design at Brown and
Rhode Island school of design.
She was also an assistantprofessor at Cornell university
(01:48):
led studio courses in Rome,Italythrough both Cornell and the
American university.
Returning to live in Santa Cruzin 1990, she taught drawing and
painting courses at Stanford andSan Jose state.
She was a continuous member ofthe art faculty at university of
California, Santa Cruz from1992, until 2012, you can find
Miriam's work on the Jen Toughgallery website on Artsy and on
(02:11):
Miriam's website.
All links of course are in theshow notes.
I can't wait to get started.
So, hi everybody.
Welcome to Tough on Art.
I'm Jen, and today I am talkingto the infamous Miriam Hitchcock
and Mariam you're in Santa Cruzright now, right?
Miriam Hitchcock (02:29):
Yes, I am
Jen Tough (02:30):
And you're in a cold studio.
I understand.
Miriam Hitchcock (02:33):
It's it's gradually warming up.
Jen Tough (02:36):
Yeah.
Everybody thinks thatCalifornia's always so warm.
Like when I was living in Ohio,you know, I remember the first
time I went to San Francisco, itwas like in, you know, I was
maybe like 14 and I thought, oh,you know, you always just think
of LA or San Diego.
Right.
If you think it's always goingto be, you know, beachy and, and
it's not, it can be cold.
It can even be cold in LA andSouthern California
Miriam Hitchcock (02:58):
and San Francisco famously gets very,
very cold.
Well, my studio is a convertedgarage, so.
There's a cement floor and I'vegot a rubber a rubber floor
covering the cement, but youknow, it's slow to heat up.
It's actually great in the heatof the summer.
And we really do have a lot ofthose days.
So this is a really great placeto be in the warmer months.
Jen Tough (03:22):
Yeah.
So how long have you been inSanta Cruz or California?
Tell me about your background.
Miriam Hitchcock (03:27):
Well, I was born in California.
I was born in San Francisco andgrew up on the peninsula and and
then I went see, I went tocollege in Santa Cruz.
I love Santa Cruz early on.
So this is going back a ways.
This is like the seventies and.
You know, I love this place.
It's a, it's a very special sortof location.
You know, there's a surf andsand and there's a beautiful
(03:53):
Redwood forest and great hikingpaths and good birding.
And it's just a lovely place.
And back when I originally wasattracted to the place, it was
very counter cold.
Yeah.
I was at like a hippy campus andyou know, plop right down in the
middle of this beautiful Redwoodforest.
So you know, that I would justkind of grew up as a kind of
(04:14):
quintessential say hippie,California girl.
And I didn't really get aperspective on that at all until
I moved east for grad school.
And so I went to grad school,started teaching, tried to stay
in and around New York bouncedback and forth a little bit.
(04:34):
But I moved back here afterteaching my job at Cornell,
which was a three-year job.
And part of that three-year job,I got to go to Italy and teach.
I was teaching Cornell studentsin Italy, so that was.
But I I felt really pressed uponthe the full-time faculty duties
(04:55):
were really rough on me forvarious reasons has three year
old.
And I decided to take a year'sleave of absence and come back
to Santa Cruz.
And my partner had a littlehouse here.
So once I got here, I reallydidn't want to go back to
academia in that way, in thatsame role.
So I stayed and my partnerstarted making work, making some
(05:19):
money so that we had a twoworking household.
And he's an electrician or wasan electrician.
And I started teaching part-timeand that, that worked great.
So I taught, I've taught in thisarea.
Part-time it was really likecoming home and you know, I've
realized that home is importantto me and my daughter.
(05:39):
I love the idea of raising mydaughter in California and
having her be at California.
She was starting to develop astrange accent.
So I just had to get back.
You know, I knew it would comewith sacrifices because the art
world was very, even moremonolithic back then and around
(06:00):
New York and even the LA scenewas really up and running.
So I knew it'd be in an isolatedlocation, but my, my academic
duties had kept me in a veryisolated place anyway.
So I decided to just.
Go back and regroup.
And I stayed.
So for, you know, since 1992 to2012, I was just sort of
(06:24):
teaching in and around thisarea, mostly at UCSC back at
UCSC very different department,very different environment than
the one that I studied in.
I loved teaching.
But then the time came to sortof step away.
And when I could step away, Idid, that was in 2012.
So now I have I don't have tojuggle, you know, my life in the
(06:48):
classroom and the moneymaking.
With my studio life.
When so many years was the bigissue, you know, from a raising
my daughter and grabbing hoursbetween naps.
All that picking her up fromschool last year.
So you know, I have really hadthree jobs for a long time.
Like, I mean, this is prettytypical, probably.
(07:09):
So I had raising a daughter,even though I had a partner
helped me with that and I hadthe teaching for money and then
I had, you know, trying to getin my studio every minute.
And it's nice to have a morerelaxed.
You know, own your own time now.
I mean, it's an amazing luxury.
I wake up and, you know, I lookon my partner and say, isn't it
(07:31):
pretty?
We don't have to go to work.
You know, I do work and I alwaysget sort of bristled when people
say I'm a, a woman of leisure orsomething because I do work very
hard as GM.
I love, I love being in here.
I put in a lot of hours and andit's great.
I finally have a nice kind of.
Versatile space so that I canwork on paper.
I can work on the floor.
(07:52):
I have an animation table, whichis a very kind of crude set up
with an overhead camera mountand I can move between works on
paper and paintings prettyeasily.
So all that, an answer to thequestion of how long am I going
to Santa Cruz?
Jen Tough (08:08):
Well, let's go back a little bit to when you said that
you first went to the east coastin California, when was that?
Was that when you went for gradschool?
Miriam Hitchcock (08:18):
Yes, I went to grad school
Jen Tough (08:19):
at Yale what year was that., that
Miriam Hitchcock (08:23):
was 79.
Jen Tough (08:24):
Oh, cause you know what I remember hearing, I was
in college in the eighties,early eighties, and I remember
hearing or sorry, mid eighties.
What am I saying?
I remember hearing how sexistand boys' club Yale was in their
painting department.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Miriam Hitchcock (08:40):
I mean, they they were, they were aware of
it.
I think that, you know, I meanthe whole context for art making
was still very by.
It was really pronounced and itwasn't.
I got to the east coast and tograd school that I had female
(09:00):
teachers in painting.
So they had a very predominantlymale faculty, but they made sure
that they had visiting artiststhat were women and some
visiting artists came in andstayed for a year and taught
classes, you know, so it waslike a temporary position.
And so in that.
(09:21):
I got to work with Judy Fath andElizabeth Murry and that, that
was just like amazingly greatfor me, you know?
And like just to yeah, I mean,in so many subtle and big ways
talking to a woman and seeinghow they navigate seeing how
they teach to, because.
The model of teaching that I'dsort of gone through, I wasn't
(09:44):
particularly happy with.
So, you know, it helped me findmy feet and it was an exciting
time to be there, although itwas a very polarized sort of a
scene there, there was thefigurative artists and there was
the abstractionists and I Kindof, you know, I have been happy
sort of bridging both inundergrad.
And when I went to Yale I sortof joined the abstract camp.
(10:09):
And and I did that for the fulltime I was there actually for
about 10 years I paintedabstractly.
And it was a nice way for me tosort of.
Understand formal issues.
You know, it was kind of a, itwas kind of a path clearing for
me.
Everything kind of laid bare sothat I could concentrate on the
formal issues.
(10:30):
I really hadn't heard even heardthe word formal until I went to
graduate school.
So I had a lot of catching up todo.
My, my peers, there all seemedmore.
In tuned with what was going on.
A lot of them had gone to artschools.
A lot of them were from NewYork.
It was a big culture clash forme, and I didn't feel it so much
(10:52):
as a sexist environment as justa huge culture class coming from
you know, my free love hippiehippie days to you know, New
Haven is a pretty harsh urban.
I dunno if they've improved it,but you know, you had to really
be on guard.
I was living in the city for thefirst time there.
Jen Tough (11:16):
Yeah.
I.
When I lived in Los I lived inLos Angeles most of my life.
And even just going in thenineties, I moved to
Philadelphia for a job.
And the, there was a cultureclash for sure.
I mean, I remember, you know,first I gave up my car, you
know, which was, that wasenough, but it just, even just
(11:36):
the you know, just the.
The sort of the interactionsthat you have with people in
stores or you know, everybodyhonked, you know, like even if
you're a red light car, cars arehonking, you know, and it was
just this sort of, this there'slike this compared to
California, there's like thisaggression kind of, you know,
Miriam Hitchcock (11:53):
and there, there is people feel each other
out and just interact.
Differently.
I mean, I don't know to what ascent is still like that, but it
was, it was very conspicuous tome and I I sort of just shut up
and watched for awhile.
And my unlike a lot of peoplewho sort of found graduate
school could be kind of afinishing school and they bounce
(12:15):
out on the art scene.
For me, it was a very turbulenttime of self examination in
terms of art-making and youknow, it was very disruptive and
there's a lot about people in mywork.
I didn't really make good workthere, but I it was, you know,
really critical to mydevelopment, you know, and I
really loved the fact that I cango there.
(12:38):
And I can go and listen tocritiques where people cared
about painting.
They cared about painting somuch that they argued and they,
you know, they argued with youknow, Gusto.
It was exciting.
Because part of the difficultyof that I found I'm being a
painter out here and being anartist in general.
(12:58):
The isolation had finding peoplewho care as much as you do about
it.
So it really gave me that.
And I just ate it up I ate itup.
It was a huge growing period forme.
Jen Tough (13:10):
Yeah.
There's the difference incurrent between east coast and
west could somebody could writea book on that because people on
the west coast, I think arelike, they're afraid of hurting
feelings.
You know, and so there, youknow, I'm not really sure how
constructive sometimes crits canbe, because there's just this
(13:30):
general culture of, you know,not wanting to hurt feelings.
And so, you know, there's just,there's a lot of priority put on
expression versus like more ofthose formal things that you
touched on, you know, in, in inschool It's it's interesting,
but I mean, it sounds likeyou're, you know, just basically
stressed out while you were ingrad school.
It just, this culturaldifference.
(13:51):
Right?
Miriam Hitchcock (13:53):
Well, I was just immensely stimulated, you
know, I mean, it was, it wasreally thrilling.
It was really very exciting,more than stressed out.
I mean, I suppose I was, Iremember that I'd lay in bed at
night and I would have like aslideshow of images going
through my head.
I was just being bombarded with.
New ideas, new imagery.
(14:15):
I was working really hard, longhours in studio and arguing and
talking with other, with mypeers and yeah.
It's kind of nice that what usedto be more, maybe more so it's
nice that the academic settingcan give the the person who is
the faculty member, the.
(14:36):
Permission to be critical, youknow, and that's a lot harder to
get among your peers.
I mean, it's, it's rare that youcan never friendship.
I do have some thankfully whereyou can actually say, you know,
that's not working and this iswhy I think so, you know?
And that's, that's so important.
Jen Tough (14:53):
It is important.
How was it when you were inItaly teaching?
What was that?
What was that like?
Miriam Hitchcock (15:00):
Well, it was my first time in Italy, which
was kind of odd.
I, I was asked to teach there.
Actually, I volunteered to teachthere after the person who was
supposed to, who was in line togo, who is.
Also a fairly new facultymember, but she dropped out.
She had sort of a personalissue.
And so I was really the onlychoice of the faculty and I was
(15:24):
really green and, you know, I'mnever having been to Italy.
So I was in the art and art inan art and architecture program
and we were right in centralhistorical in the plotso of
Masimo and I had a group ofabout 10 students.
So really small compared to theclasses I was used to teaching,
(15:44):
I took only 10 students overwith me.
And a lot of what we did therewas just interfacing with the
city and learning aboutarchitecture on the side,
because we had this very strongarchitectural program that we
were attached to.
And it's just obviously thething to do when you're in Rome,
because it's a monumental placewith such deep history.
(16:06):
And I, I got along pretty wellthere.
I've S I've since taught inItaly, so it's hard for me to
remember back to my Cornell timein Italy.
I had, we had a little studio inthe basement.
And a pretty good group of kidsCornell students in general, or
well-prepared to concentrate ontheir work.
And so that wasn't an issue.
(16:27):
It was, it was great experience.
Hardest thing was having athree-year-old daughter.
So thankfully I took my partnerwith me and he was kind of my
wife.
But he put our three-year-olddaughter on a bus out of town
every morning where she goes tothe American school and she
learned to count with her thumbfirst.
You know, she displaying somereal at times.
She's got a great accent still,even though she doesn't really
(16:50):
speak it.
So that was, you know, teachingand having you know, demands of
the job and the workplace whileyou have young kids is
stressful.
So.
It was without a doubt,stressful, but also just,
they're very cool, verystimulating, very eye opening.
I mean, Rome was a place whereyou can stand on a corner and
(17:11):
really see the layers ofhistory.
And for California, you know,just about knocks you down,
it's, it's phenomenal, you know,to get that tangible glimpse
time, really the evidence.
So I kind of craved that as aCalifornia and I think it, it
has informed the fact that whenI travel, I like to go to
ancient places.
(17:31):
And so in general, when I thinkback on teaching for Cornell,
the first time it was, it wasgreat.
The chair of the Italian segmentwas you know, Roberto Ionadi.
And he was in charge ofrestoration of monuments.
He had this he's from a veryprominent family and he had this
(17:54):
great sort of entree to thesites.
So for instance, when we went toPompei, he had the keys and he
would open the doors that wereusually locked to them, to the
public.
There were field trips, almostinvolved in it.
And Yeah, again, that wholeimmersion and a new culture was
exciting and stimulating andwonderful life.
(18:17):
I've gone back many, many timesseem to go back just better
chance I get.
And if I'm planning a trip, Iusually try and put a few days
in Rome there.
Cause I've gotten to know itpretty well.
It's nice.
It's a place that.
Land, and don't have to look ata map, you know, which is kind
of great, you know, cause whenyou try to be so stressful and I
(18:37):
have, you know, favorite placesto visit and it's good.
I've had a lot of chance to drawfrom a lot of the collections
there now.
It's a great place and I didn'twant to come back to Ithica and
New York where Cornell is causethat's there in the cold
(18:58):
Northeast part of the Northeastand they are, they still have
jackets on and have freezing icestorms in March sometimes.
So again, being in Californiaand then that was so.
Difficult.
And actually my life at Cornellwas far more difficult than my
life when I was teaching inItaly or at Cornell, that was
(19:19):
kind of a nice vacation,although there's plenty of work
to do vacation from colleagues.
I mean, those that's sort of Ivyleague and the schools can
really have a lot of tensionbetween faculty members and.
Yeah, there were lawsuitsbetween faculty members.
There's a lot of unpleasantdrama.
(19:40):
I mean, he wasn't involved, butthere was a lot of a lot of
tension kind of
Jen Tough (19:45):
lawsuits with would teachers have it gets, I mean,
don't give names, but
Miriam Hitchcock (19:51):
there was one I remember.
Yeah, I think that was the bigone.
And then there were other, therewas always, people were very
private, you know, there wasalways I think it was very
compartmentalized.
Like it every, every action waspolitical, but that again was
very uncomfortable and very newfor me.
(20:12):
It became like a politicalissue.
If you said hi to somebody inthe It was kind of very, very
hard.
Jen Tough (20:18):
It wasn't competitive.
Was that the thing like the,
Miriam Hitchcock (20:21):
jostling for advancement within the faculty?
I mean, I dunno if this is veryinteresting, but usually there,
the entering younger faculty getpressed upon to do a lot of
duties.
They're sort of provingthemselves.
So I did, I had, I had a lot of,this is partly why I had to
leave in three years.
So I've had a lot of extra stuffto do.
(20:43):
And they had a small graduateprogram.
So I was teaching classes ofvery serious, big classes of
serious art students.
And then I was teaching gradschool.
And I had a very young daughterand I had all this unpleasant
colleagues.
Jen Tough (21:01):
It sounds pretty awful.
Miriam Hitchcock (21:03):
Yeah.
I mean, I always kind of I waskind of an idiot about the fact
that you need alliances and youneed to make alliances.
I only gradually became theeverybody else around me was
thinking very strategicallyabout who was on their side, if
a boat came to the faculty tableand that sort of thing.
And I tried to avoid it and itwas only to my detriment really,
(21:24):
because I didn't really havestrong Allegiances
Jen Tough (21:30):
also where people were professors sort of, did
they advance through the ranksbased on how much, I mean, I'm
just talking about artprofessors, you know, based on
their reputation outside of theschool or was it yeah.
Miriam Hitchcock (21:48):
And you know, like a lot of academic jobs you
advance as soon as somebody elsewants to hire you.
And that happened if you wereexhibiting and yeah, you're
always, I mean, I was always, Iwas driving to New York, which
is a long and horrendous drive,especially in the weather or the
world.
And I'm trying to keep anddevelop you know, a network
(22:11):
there.
Right.
So it was a lot to do.
It was, I burned out really
Jen Tough (22:18):
that's a lot.
Cause I mean, plus you'redealing with all this sort of
subtle or not so subtle sexismfor sure.
You know, and just trying to betaken seriously, you know, sort
of not looked at as highly as a,as a white male, you know, just
in society.
That's a lot, that's a lot todeal with and being a mom.
Miriam Hitchcock (22:43):
Yeah.
I mean we were aware, I wasaware that I was one of the
early female.
I was a very young femalefaculty member.
But honestly I spent more timethinking about.
You know, advancing myself thanI did about the fact that I was
being looked down upon because Iwas a woman.
(23:03):
I, there definitely was a sensethat you had to prove yourself.
And maybe that was greaterbecause I was carrying a lot of
baggage about, you know,imposter syndrome, you know, can
I do this?
And that's right.
Jen Tough (23:16):
Yeah.
I mean, isn't it weird?
I don't know if you found this,but like, I think back in like
the eighties and nineties, likewhen I was, you know, when I was
working or when, you know youknow, sort of advancing through
my career, you don't reallylike, you know, it's there like
the sexism and stuff, but Ididn't really notice how bad it
was until like, I look back onit 20 years later and then I'm
(23:39):
like, holy shit.
How, what, you know, You know,and I don't know if that's
because I've changed and maturedor if it's because the world's
changed and it's like, okay, totalk about it now, or I don't
know.
What do you think,
Miriam Hitchcock (23:56):
talk about it now without being immediately
label the problem, right?
Yeah, no.
I mean when I was first gettinginterviewed for jobs, I was
asked if I was married.
And if you were, that was aproblem, you know, that then
they'd sort of say, well, youknow, they sort of feel out how
(24:17):
much your partner made and washe willing to move?
And that sort of thing.
I know lots of questions thatare off limits.
I also had the uncomfortablefeeling of going through all the
interviews with all malefaculty.
One time being asked out, likeambiguously asked out right
after the interview.
Jen Tough (24:37):
Oh my God.
Miriam Hitchcock (24:39):
I mean, just stuff that I think women knew
not to do, but yeah.
Jen Tough (24:48):
Yeah.
So how do you think all of thesesort of experiences, all these,
you know, Italy and this sortof, you know, rough, I mean, it
sounds rough like this eastcoast rough, right?
Like we would have been for metoo, I think for anybody, any
woman, I think in that position.
I mean, I remember when I firstsaw on your resume that you, you
(25:08):
know, you got your master's atYale and I was like, whoa.
Cause I just remember hearingstories about the painting
department in particular.
Miriam Hitchcock (25:16):
Oh, did you?
Yeah.
What might've generated that?
I mean, there was some Bruno.
Yeah, you're tough guys.
And yeah, there was a lot ofsexism for sure.
Jen Tough (25:28):
So how do you think, do you think that all, I mean,
it has to have informed yourwork at this point.
Like just all of theseexperiences have sort of fed
into what you're producing now,but do you see any like direct.
Sort of correlation or responseto those experiences?
Miriam Hitchcock (25:47):
Particular.
I mean, it's interesting.
I am not an artist who can takeon a.
Political or social issuestraight on.
I started doing incrementallyand sort of choose my places and
it's become apparent to me thatmy work has really filtered
through autobiography.
And I, I think I could haveconsciously made a choice to to
(26:10):
use a lot of female charactersin the, the figures that I've
used.
I had a strange experience whenI started to the figure again, I
really just sort of felt like Ihad to learn how.
If I would do it, if I wouldjust sit down and generate a
figure, it would be a malefigure which was really weird.
(26:30):
And so I felt like I had to sortof, well, I had to learn the
figure and I felt like inparticular, I needed to figure
out the female figure and howthat could be used and should be
used.
Especially since it was socharged.
Thinking back on sentences inthe art, it can feel within
models who were always femalenudes and that was never
(26:51):
discussed really.
And that was my experience, youknow, I learned to draw female
nudes and I think I've kind offound my comfort and greatest
area of interest in the clothedfigure.
And I love the female clothedfigure.
I mean, it's, it's endlesswonderful, really.
(27:12):
And that's, that's been kind ofan evolution it's kinda hard to
track, but I know initially mysort of breakthrough moment when
I found myself unable to avoidthe figure anymore was after
having my daughter and drawingher head.
And it sort of evolved fromthere.
I didn't really embracefiguration again until I moved
(27:34):
back to Santa Cruz in 1992.
So I have.
It's history on the east coastwhere people knew me as an
abstractionist and a.
And because of that sort of hardpolarity and sort of two camp
system that I, you know, thatwas really visceral back then.
I mean, it, it does exist insome form.
(27:54):
Now there was a sense that, youknow, you were leaving the clan
or, you know, you're, there'ssome portrayal there by, by
breaking it up and leaving.
And I, you know, I have goodfemale friends who are
abstractionists and I know.
Difficulty and them acceptingthis.
You know, there's a sense that,and I really had strong
(28:17):
conviction that abstracting is acomplete language and I loved it
a lot.
And so for me, the process ofembracing figuration and putting
that in the mix was you know,finding a way for them to come
and say you know, overtly, Icertainly there's a lot about
the tradition of figurativepainting that doesn't interest
(28:37):
me in the least.
So that's why I say sometimes ifI'm an abstractionist who ran
out of reasons to haveeliminates figure.
Yeah.
I still think very abstractlythen.
I don't know.
I can't even remember youroriginal question at this point.
Jen Tough (28:54):
Well, it doesn't matter.
What is, you said that you foundthat, that you find the female
form endlessly.
Wonderful.
Miriam Hitchcock (29:01):
Yeah.
Well, the figure in general, butthe female form, especially
yeah, I mean the sense theopportunity to deal with drape.
Yeah.
The, the sort of S socialsignaling and history of fashion
is is a part of it.
And you know, that's, that'skind of wonderful.
So that becomes a part of a mix.
(29:22):
I did a series this is a littlebit of a tangent, but it reminds
me a lot of my use of the femalefigure.
I experienced a very tragicdeath in my family 1995.
And I became really obsessedwith the afterlife with people
who were meeting deathsunprepared.
(29:45):
And I was thinking a lot aboutthis kind of limbo state I
obviously was in crisis and Iwas also in therapy and reading
Realta cause he helped he'sreally one of the few authors I
could find that kind of when atit yes, an afterlife.
And so in that.
And sort of time period.
(30:06):
Let's see.
That's like the 1990s, late1990s.
I was I started the painting, alot of aftermath and ruin and
this kind of quasi limbo stateof a person being, meeting death
and being unprepared for it.
And Sort of coming to terms withit and meaning how they looked.
(30:27):
I mean, it's a great mystery,right?
It is a great mystery.
And because I had lost somebodyvery close to me and I think
that person was unprepared fordeath.
I was really consumed with thismean, it's very personal, but it
was part of feeling like thatperson didn't need me anymore.
And did that, you know, causewhen something tragic happens to
somebody you're close to and youweren't there, there's just a
(30:48):
tremendous amount of grief andconcern.
That's hard to let go.
Anyway, that project sort ofculminated in.
These, this body of work thatwas really about heaven and
imagined heaven I don't reallybelieve in the Christian idea of
heaven it was after life.
And I discovered that in thatafterlife that I was creating,
(31:11):
the people were reallywell-dressed.
I mean, they were fashionableand and that was really fun.
So I was just I sort of gavemyself permission to.
You know, from this having beenin this very abstract territory
and sort of rudimentary, reallyrudimentary, really dealing with
the figure and as quasi abstractway, then suddenly I was dealing
(31:32):
with the details of fashion, youknow, the curve of a collar and,
you know, the length of thedress.
I was looking a lot of thirtiesand forties women.
Yeah.
So I sort of the dike brokethere about that being that
being possible for me, you know,cause I'm aware that I'm still
(31:53):
you know, I'm still reallyrooted in that abstract language
and also in that kind ofpolarity.
It's hard for me to I'm alwaysasking myself questions about
it.
So, anyway, that was animportant body of work.
I was glad to step away from itwhen I could.
But I found that at that point,I, you know, it was obvious to
me that I was interested in thedraped figure and that, you
(32:16):
know, I could look at fashionmagazines for God's sake and I
could enjoy them and I couldbring them into my paintings
and.
You know, that we were talkingabout before, about sexism and
you question about the femalebody, you know, it was so
difficult, such a very difficultsubject because I'd seen it
(32:36):
dealt with so poorly.
So I, I sort of kind of found myway through the draped to figure
and through really lifting fromfashion.
Jen Tough (32:51):
Do you think that, you know, sometimes I think
there's always, you know, eventhough artists are sort of known
as rulebreakers and in, in onesense they're told you need to
be a rule breaker to, you know,To sort of make your mark in a
way, but yet at the same time,there's always these rules of
art school and rules of the artworld.
Like you're sort of touching on,you said you gave yourself
(33:14):
permission to explore thisother.
Miriam Hitchcock (33:18):
Yeah.
I mean, it's, it's hard toadmit, but that's, you know,
where I sort of developed.
This, these notions about ruleswas also a really critical
period of growth where I reallygot attached to what I was
making in a, in a deep way.
And I didn't want to lose sightof that.
(33:39):
You know, my, a lot of my heroesare abstractionists and
certainly Elizabeth Murray.
So I I always ask myself, youknow it's always a question.
And I think that slows me down.
I see artists who don't havethat sort of, they don't have to
check in with their history inthat way.
And it looks like it's a lot offun, but for me, I always, I
(34:04):
always make changes veryincrementally.
And I always question, I, itreminds me of that.
Painful period outside, justoutside of grad school, where I
went in the studio and it wasliterally like I had 10 artists
sitting there, 10 famousartists, you know, there'd be
(34:24):
Hans Hoffman.
There'd be L hell, there'd beElizabeth Murray.
There'd be Monet there'd be, youknow, just out read David Smith
and I was so sort of critical.
And so I'm concerned with theyou know, with the tradition, I
(34:44):
guess really I'm finding myplace in it and And I was so
isolated, actually that it tookme a long time to get those
people out of my studio.
And so they wouldn't beat me upand keep me from doing things,
but it was really like that for,for a while for me.
And it's not anymore, which isnice.
Now I can, I can think aboutthat angle.
(35:06):
You know, like there's this bigJoni Mitchell show here and San
Francisco, and it was easy toproject myself back to the
seventies and eighties andabstract, especially as I'm of
course I'm the sort of aftermathor the sort of second generation
abstract expressionists.
And it was interesting to lookat that work that was so.
(35:29):
Central to my thinking and somuch part of my my initial sort
of growth and development is.
No.
I really thought of myself as aexpressionistic and accent,
especially as to the extent thatI, you know, started smoking,
you know?
So it was weird and reallyinteresting to get some
perspective on that work.
I may have felt very far awayfrom it.
(35:51):
There was, I admired the workbut I didn't love the work.
You know, there was occasionalpaintings that I felt like I
really loved, but.
It's funny.
I mean, that, that's kind of awonderful, ongoing thing where
artists look different to you atdifferent times.
So it was, it was fun justrecently to check in with
(36:12):
abstract expressionism in thatway with Joni Mitchell.
Jen Tough (36:17):
Well, you know, you're not the only one who said
that in some ways art school canruin you, you know, like, right.
Like you always have thosevoices in your head and you
mentioned.
You know, you see other peoplewho are abstract expressions
now, and they don't have thosevoices.
They don't have those rules.
And those, those, those interiorcritics that are always, you
(36:39):
know, to break free from that toa certain degree, that's like an
art in itself.
Right.
Miriam Hitchcock (36:46):
It's a process.
And some people seem to do itmore easily than others, but you
know, I think that I I generallywant to behave well, I'm not a
re I'm not a rebel, you know?
So it was hard for me.
I wanted those heroes of mine tobe comfortable with what I was
doing.
So I was always checking in.
I mean, it's kind of a imposterscenario that I'm talking about,
(37:07):
but it took a while.
Jen Tough (37:09):
Yeah.
I mean, I think it, it, I think,especially for women who go
through that, absolutely.
You know, because you wentthrough that very traditional,
very prestigious, you know, pathof the way things should be
quote unquote and.
It takes a lot of liberation, Ithink.
Miriam Hitchcock (37:28):
Yeah.
Oh yeah.
And then of course there was aperiod late, late nineties,
early two thousands.
When people really weren'tinterested in painting.
But the art world is showingexibit exhibiting marketplace
seem to be shrinking to twopainters that just like, and
(37:52):
there was an academic had, therewas a lot of our open hostility
to painting as a privileged,medium, and.
Yeah, that was a big politicaloverlay.
There always is.
But especially in academia.
So as I continue to teach, I hadto sort of deal with that.
And you know, their isolationwas very miserable.
(38:14):
It's hard to be in Santa Cruz.
You know, I show there's almostno place to exhibit here, so I.
Yeah, I can go outside of thearea, which I, I try and do.
Often Yeah, it's like kind ofgot lost in my thoughts.
Jen Tough (38:31):
No.
That's okay.
This has been, so I love thisconversation with you so much.
Miriam Hitchcock (38:37):
Oh my gosh the time.
Jen Tough (38:41):
Was, it was, it was really, I really valued this
time with you Miriam a lot.
It was great.
Thanks for sharing so much.
And I, I have so much admirationtruly for.
You know, for not only for yourwork, but for what you went
through, you know, as a woman, Imean, not saying you're like,
(39:01):
you know, a victim or anything,but I mean, that's a lot of shit
to deal with back then.
Miriam Hitchcock (39:06):
Yeah.
Jen Tough (39:07):
And you know, you definitely deserve a lot of, you
know, you got my respect for
Miriam Hitchcock (39:13):
that because there were role models.
Thankfully.
I mean, there were out there.
Yeah,
Jen Tough (39:20):
but those are rough days for women in art,
especially painters
Miriam Hitchcock (39:26):
feel they're getting better.
And yeah.
And people like you, I think areimmediately taking those biases
head on, which is reallywonderful to see biases of
gender and age and evengeographic region.
Jen Tough (39:41):
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know,what the, what the eighties and
seventies, eighties, andnineties, you know, for women,
like, you know, that sort ofdiscrimination and, or, you
know, I was never blatant.
It was just, you know, it wasquiet, but it was there, but now
it's, it's it's to me.
Biggest issue is is age-ism.
I mean, it's just, it's really?
(40:03):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's really, it's really bad.
So anyway, thank you for joiningme.
Miriam Hitchcock (40:09):
It's really nice to have a chance to talk to
you.
Jen Tough (40:15):
Yeah, thank you so much for listening and
supporting this podcast.
Your support means everything.
If you'd like to learn moreabout the Artist Alliance
community, send me a question orlearn about other events or
projects coming up, please visitmy website at
www.Jentough.gallery.
See you next time.
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