February 21, 2022 • 65 mins
All artists know the importance of showing their artwork. But what about showing themselves? Ask most artists, and you'll get.... "ugh".
Today Jen talks with therapist and artist Dr. Dee Tivenan, EdD, MFT about the anxiety of showing up online, showing ourselves, selfie culture, and how it can cause, well.... dread. Dee presents easy to follow tips and tricks to help alleviate this dread and anxiety, soften any blows that may come, and how to keep moving forward.
Dee Tivenan is an artist and therapist in the Bay Area of California, has been in private practice for over 35 years, and hosts "Head Talk" in the Artist Alliance community. Check out her art on her website: https://deetivenanartist.wixsite.com/home
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jen Tough (00:00):
Welcome to Tough on Art, the podcast for artists
interested in ways to get aheadin today's art market.
I'm Jen Tough owner of Jen ToughGallery and the Artist Alliance
community.
Join me for some down to earth.
Talk about the best ways forartists to navigate this new and
different landscape.
Hi everybody.
Welcome to Tough on Art, Thisis, Jen, and today I'm super
(00:20):
excited to have Dee Tivenan backwith me again, and Hi Dee, how
are you?
Dee Tivenan (00:27):
Hi Jen, it's good to be here.
Thank you.
Jen Tough (00:29):
Where are you right now?
Dee Tivenan (00:31):
Well, right now I'm at Katie Korotzer's house
because I don't trust mycomputer skills to get this
right.
So good old Katie, we needfriends.
Jen Tough (00:44):
Katies' One of your artists, friends.
Dee Tivenan (00:47):
We're here in Orinda, California.
Yeah.
Jen Tough (00:49):
And how how's the weather there right now?
It's February, 2022.
Dee Tivenan (00:53):
Yes.
It just got a little chilly, butthat's okay.
And we're hoping for.
Jen Tough (00:57):
Nice.
So we were just talking.
Yeah, no, he, no February, buteverything's blooming west coast
stuff starts coming up so early,so nice.
So we were just talking aboutbefore we started recording that
we were kind of in recovery fromTrump and everybody is sort of,
(01:20):
I don't know.
What do you think?
You're the therapist?
Dee Tivenan (01:22):
I think we are traumatized to various degrees.
I think we have everythingthat's been going on in our own
lives personally.
And then the Trump years youknow, shocked me.
I didn't know that we could losedemocracy.
I didn't know the extent ofracism really.
I knew it was there.
(01:42):
I didn't know the extent ofantisemitism and then the
adjustment of COVID.
It doesn't appear to be over.
I heard that this one, there'sanother strand.
So we're, we're reorganizing ourlives in a way, and our
children's lives and ourgrandchildren's lives in a way
that we've never known.
So we, we have a big loss ofcontrol.
(02:05):
We don't know what the nextthing is.
Even though we never havecontrol.
Sometimes we feel like we havemore than we do now.
We've lost social interaction toa certain degree and that loss,
we're seeing a lot more anxiety,a lot more depression.
It's really hard to get intotherapists these days.
Everybody's overbooked.
(02:26):
I'm seeing a lot of suicides,even though the research is not
in my clientele.
I got, but even though theresearch is saying that suicides
are up, maybe they're morepublic.
I don't know, but people arestrained and there's a lot of
semantic things that are comingwith that.
Like headaches, not sleeping.
Et cetera.
So boy, is it a time to takecare of ourselves and take care
(02:50):
of each other and be aware ofthis?
Is a hard time.
Jen Tough (02:55):
Yeah.
Yeah.
There's a little, I mean, it'skind of like the whole country
sort of, or the whole world evenhas a little bit of PTSD, you
know, I don't mean to make lightof that at all.
Dee Tivenan (03:05):
No, you're not.
I think we do.
And I think there's a lotstarting to be written about
that.
For healthcare workers, youknow, for therapists, but we
really don't know longitudinallywhat it's gonna look like for
the kids that have been wearingmasks or the kids have been home
from school or the millennialsthat were just getting launched
(03:29):
and now are back home or can'tget jobs or can't buy houses.
So longitudinally, we don'treally know.
And.
I think there's a fear of thenext election.
So people have to be aware ofthat.
We're much more hypervigilant,you know, like we get anxious
(03:51):
work quickly, we startled morequickly.
We're more reactive.
And so that's where themindfulness comes in in this
moment.
I'm safe.
Oh, now I'm in the next moment.
I'm still safe versus thinkingahead, like what if, what if,
you know, but our minds go thereand so bring ourselves back to
(04:16):
the moment and, you know, makesure we exercise and I'm not
talking about anything buthealth and help with anxiety and
depression and, you know, pay,pay attention to ourselves.
And we're cranking.
I I've never sworn so much in myhead as I do that
Jen Tough (04:37):
really.
I swear aloud all the time.
Dee Tivenan (04:39):
I know you're good at it.
You know, I sailor mouth.
I know that.
And your parents weren't evensailors.
I don't know.
I'm always worried in my head.
It's always coming out, but I'msurprised what's going on in
there, but yes, it it's it's areally unsettling time for all.
Jen Tough (04:59):
Yeah, which kind of is a good segue or not a good
segue into talking about whatwe're going to talk about, which
is putting yourself out there onsocial media.
And, you know, that's a hugething, you know, so you have all
this stuff in the background,you know, this sort of anxiety,
this like post-Trump, you know,PTSD COVID stuff.
(05:23):
And then on top of it, you know,artists have to need to you
know, market themselves.
And one of the best ways tomarket themselves is, you know,
is to put their face onInstagram, put their, put their
selves on Facebook, you know,whatever that might be, but
putting yourselves out, puttingyourself out there a little bit
more.
And that's so hard,
Dee Tivenan (05:45):
you know, when I started painting like 12 years
ago, it, first of all, I neverthought I'd be.
Selling or anything else, but Ihad no idea of the business,
part of this.
I was still kind of completelyshocked and yes, that is a big
part.
This marketing that I'mrealizing.
(06:05):
And the thing is, this is awhole socio-cultural thing.
That's happened with women andmen over the years.
Now it's more men than it usedto be, but that's been
self-conscious, that's been bodyshamed us feeling not good about
ourselves.
Let's looking at magazines andfeeling like, even though we
know they're Photoshop, we don'tlook good enough or whatever.
(06:26):
So it's a whole nother step interms of being aware of that
exists.
I don't know any woman thatunfortunately, that can say I
just love every part of my body.
We're trying to get there, but Idon't know anyone.
Eating disorders away up bodydysmorphic disorder is way up
(06:48):
and body dysmorphic disorder iswhen we don't see our bodies
accurately.
For example, anorexic personwould see themselves being
overweight.
And now, you know, in the lastnumber of years, we've seen men
have more anorexia and bodydysmorphic disorder because
they're into fashion wherethey're on magazines, more,
their looks matter more.
(07:09):
So now here we are just kind ofnormal people putting ourselves
out on Instagram, Facebook, andI was kind of the last person in
the universe to have a cellphone.
And so then as it was JenniferPerlmutter and her galleries and
Lafayette, and is a friend ofmine and she said, you need to
go on Instagram.
I go no, no.
(07:29):
And then she grabbed my phone,took a picture, put it on
Instagram.
And she said, get over it justlike that.
And then went on her busy way.
Right?
She kind of forced me into it.
And it's not as easy as justgetting over it, but it's not a
(07:50):
bad way of looking at it interms of what's the worst thing
that can happen and get over it.
Don't focus so much on yourselfbecause in reality, most people
aren't looking at ourselves theway we look at ourselves.
Yeah.
And that's important toremember.
I just had an interesting thingbecause I was kind of lucky an
(08:12):
Orinda living magazine came outand I'm going to be on the cover
of it in March and a story andsame thing.
I'm going like, oh my God cover.
And I looked at all the picturesthey were maybe taking in about
man, how did I get to be 71?
How did this all happen?
But using the same tools of one,a positive thing, I'm lucky that
(08:34):
they're doing it.
That's a nice thing too.
You know, what's the worst thingthat could happen.
Three.
This is the worst thing thathappen is really nothing.
Unless I don't stop myself, talkfor this might be good for art
and I'm growing and experience,but whether it's you know,
(08:57):
photos on Instagram or on ourwebsite or speaking, it's all
the same thing in terms ofembracing ourselves using
positive self-talk and theself-talk is like, we're always
have a dialogue inside of ourheads and we can really run
ourselves in the ground with it,like, oh man, I'm going to be
(09:18):
terrible on this podcast.
And Jen's never going to ask meagain because I always get the
time wrong.
But by the way, everyone, I didget the time wrong.
But or I can say it's fun tobanter with Jen.
This isn't a rehearsed thing,and this is a good experience.
I can turn it around and kind ofmake the, you know, it is what
(09:40):
it is.
It's another moment in my life.
So in all these situations, wereally have to be aware of our
self-talk our perspective, whatexpectations are we setting for
ourselves?
My expectation isn't that I'mgoing to be perfect on this
podcast.
I don't even know what perfectmeans.
I don't even think it exists,but if I set that expectation
(10:04):
up, or if I set an expectation,I have to sell this many
paintings or I have to paintlike Gogan this year, you know,
I'm setting myself up to failversus again, coming back to the
moment I am, where I am, andthis is a good place to be.
(10:25):
So I, I, I just want to tell youthis study, that.
Jen Tough (10:30):
You're getting out the papers.
I hear the paper.
Dee Tivenan (10:33):
I won't do that.
Jen Tough (10:35):
You have something written down, which is more than
I've got.
I'm just,
Dee Tivenan (10:41):
I can't find it on all these sheets, but anyway,
but the study was, it was likein 2002 that women, and this is
so tragic would rather like havea leg amputated or whatever.
Then the fat shamed,
Jen Tough (10:59):
majority who rather have Jesus.
Really.
Dee Tivenan (11:04):
I know that's why I wrote it down,
Jen Tough (11:05):
but oh, that's so awful.
Dee Tivenan (11:07):
You know, all these other things instead of being
fat shamed.
And so that says has how deep itis.
Yes.
And I worked with eatingdisorders for 40 years.
Sorry that made a little noise.
I'm drinking everyone water.
(11:27):
And it, it is so deep.
These girls look at magazinesand say, I don't look like that.
We look at older people.
I just saw that Courtney Coxsaid, I don't look good with
these fillers, which I'm happythat she realized that because
she look like those lip fillers.
I hate that.
I didn't see the lip, but thecheeks, but it's not normal
(11:48):
looking, you know?
Jen Tough (11:50):
Yeah.
There's like a weird look withpeople who get too much plastic
surgery or like much like thoselip injections, those things.
Dee Tivenan (11:56):
Those are a little scary to me.
Jen Tough (11:58):
Yeah.
It doesn't, it's really awfullooking,
Dee Tivenan (12:03):
but it is about that.
We are not okay.
I'm not telling anyone thatthere isn't going to be some
struggle.
You know,
Jen Tough (12:13):
struggle is real.
Dee Tivenan (12:15):
Yeah, but what end did we come out in it for me?
Do I let my hair go gray or notgo gray?
I'm thinking about that.
How I've never been this agebefore, and that's probably fits
for everyone else with theirages.
And so how, how do I deal withthis?
How do you deal with gettingolder and respecting yourself,
(12:40):
respecting your body?
Yeah.
And still having confidence.
And what people say is thatconfidence just happens.
It's not true.
I've never seen a baby come outand say, it's not true.
I'm feeling really good aboutmy, yeah.
Jen Tough (12:55):
You know, you remember like, COVID of course
you remember COVID.
But when my gallery closed and Ineeded to do this pivot and it
needed to be online.
And, you know, in order to sortof let people know what I was
doing, I was doing all thesefree webinars.
Oh my God.
Holy shit.
The first few I did, I was sonervous.
(13:17):
I mean, I was real, but I forcedmyself to do it and I just, you
know, I just kept doing it.
And, and it's true what theysay, like the more you do that
kind of thing, the easier itgets.
And now, now I'm not nervous atall.
Now I enjoy it.
Like it's because it's simpleand I can connect with people.
And but I was really, reallynervous
Dee Tivenan (13:35):
at you're raising a really good point and that's
called exposure.
The more we do something, theeasier it is.
Like if you're afraid to driveacross the bridge, you go in
little baby steps, go to thebridge, do some deep breathing,
go home, then go to the bridgeand you go a little bit farther
and go home.
And so it's the same way as ourselfies or our marketing on
(13:59):
Instagram or Facebook orwhatever the first time, you
know, Jen Perlmutter just hijackme God.
And now it's like, okay, I putit on.
You know, I don't really spendthat much time looking at
myself.
And this is part of what it is.
And the self-talk is no onereally cares.
(14:20):
I look at people all the timeand it's just nice to get to
know them.
I'm not really judging them.
So it's exposure and confidence.
Confidence is like a muscle.
Like I said, the baby comes outand is, oh, I'd feel so good
about my new belly button orsomething.
I know kids are born withdifferent temperaments, but
confidence is like a muscle thatwe have to practice.
(14:42):
You have to practice it withthat.
Self-talk I did that prettywell.
You know, another tool iswriting in journal, a journal or
writing down all the things wedid well today.
Overdo it on being the self,being self critical on anything
like on everything.
(15:03):
I didn't get enough done or Iburnt my toast or whatever, but
we don't focus enough on what wedo do well.
And that does erode ourcompetence.
So being positive self-talkabout ourself and I'm not
Pollyanna.
I'm not saying like, you knowthat I cleaned the house
perfectly, but I did get thelaundry done.
(15:23):
And that's a good thing, youknow?
So we want to focus on thepositive.
I think everybody that'slistening.
If they asked ourselves when thelast time was, they appreciated
themselves, I think it might beawhile.
We want to say it out loud.
It's interesting.
When we say
Jen Tough (15:42):
difference, instead of
Dee Tivenan (15:44):
waiting for it, you can write it, but it's very
impactful.
If you say, like, I felt goodabout that painting versus just
thinking about it.
It's a little bit moreimpactful.
Even if you're in bad mood, ifyou smile, you start to feel
better.
You know?
So we want to say it out loud.
(16:04):
We want to recognize it.
I'm exercising my confidencetoday.
And that's important because Iwant to be happier.
I want to feel better aboutmyself.
I'm sick of putting myself downand, you know, and with these
whole selfie things in themarketing, I I'm, everybody's at
a different degree with this.
Everybody's in a differentplace, you know, I'm okay where
(16:28):
I am.
And I left Lauren A.
Crane statement.
She's an artist in Australia byBartis and her, her line is
perfectly imperfect.
And I use that and I think aboutit all the time.
And that's really what we are.
And do you want to say somethingI'm just chatting away here?
(16:48):
I've had my coffee.
Jen Tough (16:51):
Well, you know, I think that it's really easy to
just sort of, for artists tojust ignore the idea of putting
themselves out there on, youknow, let's just use Instagram,
for example, you know, not evenjust a live, but like a picture
of yourself next to yourpainting or whatever.
It's like when we, you know,it's difficult, it's easier to
just say I'm not going to do,I'm just not going to do that.
I'm just going to post picturesof my work.
(17:12):
It's safer.
You know, oh, I'm an artist.
People should just pay attentionto my work and not me, but
there's been a shift.
And I think part of it's COVIDpart of, it's just, you know,
how powerful social media is nowthat their needs, people want
that connection with the artist.
I see this time and time again,you know, people rather buy from
(17:32):
the artist directly.
They rather know the artists,they want that connection.
They want that artist's story.
And the only way to do that isto put yourself out there on
Instagram, go to art fairs andstand there and talk about your
work.
You know, when we did theInstagram challenge and the
Artists Alliance last year, AndI gave like a, it was a
challenge.
So I gave a whole bunch ofdifferent ideas and prompts for
(17:54):
people like this one.
You're just going to show yourhands in the shot, the next shot
you're going to, you know, haveit's going to be you with a
painting.
You know, you don't have to showyour body.
You can hide behind yourpainting if you want, but show
your face, you and that kind ofthing.
And the ones that were morepersonal, like people's pets,
the artists inside their studio,stuff that gave context to that
person, to the artist as aperson, remember it did so well,
(18:18):
people got the best responsefrom it, you know, because I
think when artists just posttheir work, there's this
underlying understanding fromthe viewers that, oh, they just
want me to buy their painting.
It's just another thing to buy.
It's just another that, youknow, they want that connection
with people.
So it's really powerful to beable to show yourself.
Dee Tivenan (18:38):
I think so, too connection is a basic need.
Yeah.
You know, a primal need and Ican see you now.
And you can see me, and this isbetter than just talking on the
phone because we have more of aconnection.
Jen Tough (18:52):
Yeah.
Dee Tivenan (18:53):
So that's why I agree with you.
It is important, but do it inways that you feel comfortable.
Jen Tough (18:59):
Sure.
Yeah.
Dee Tivenan (19:00):
No, you don't have to where, like, you know, where,
where what's comfortable, youdon't have to worry about
anybody else's wearing, be in asetting that's comfortable.
Jen Tough (19:08):
We start with just showing your hands, right.
Lego.
You're saying like going to thebridge and just doing the deep
breathing.
If you're afraid to cross abridge in your car, you know,
like same thing, like just, justmaybe in the beginning you show
your hands working on a video orhow you clean your brushes or,
you know, really simple things.
And then when you're ready, likejust kind of work up to it.
It's like, you know, it's likewhen people learn to swim and
(19:30):
Jen Perlmutter just likebasically threw you in the
water.
Just swim or you can takelessons and, you know, you start
in the shallow area and then yougo deeper and, you know, cause
the theme of theuncomfortableness is, is it's
real.
It's so real.
I mean, I don't put myself outthere on Instagram.
Like, you know, I I'm, I'mwanting to talk, I'm learning
(19:53):
all this from you as well.
You know, we can, we can learnthis together.
It's hard as women, as olderwomen once you're like sort of
God, I hate to say this, but youknow, past your prime
culturally, you know, not can'tbear babies anymore, I guess is,
is the is the thing then itbecomes like a whole other
world, right?
Dee Tivenan (20:13):
Yeah.
But part of, yes, I I I've toldyou this before.
I'm just learning how to beolder.
I've never,
Jen Tough (20:21):
now it's weird, isn't it?
Dee Tivenan (20:23):
Yeah.
And I'm a lot older than you,but.
You know, there's support there.
A lot of people my age, but theplus side honestly, is it is
easier to let go of things like,okay.
So I post my picture.
Okay.
Really big deal.
Right.
I said to myself, the big thingsare life and death.
(20:45):
Everything else is aninconvenience, you know?
So what do I have to losereally?
And that's not a bad statementfor when we're younger.
Like, oh my God, this was ahorrible picture or whatever.
Well, it's gonna pass those.
Aren't the things that arereally important in our lives.
And so again, reframing ourexpectations and you know, that
(21:11):
this might not be great, youknow, but I'm learning.
So lowering our expectations andreframing what's important.
I want to, I'm saying this forall of us.
Good about myself.
I don't have to feel great.
Life has ups and downs.
Jen Tough (21:29):
I feel decent right.
Dee Tivenan (21:32):
And be able to retrieve that.
I mean, when I look at thephotos I took for that magazine,
and this is my insecurity, I hadMillie in my hands the whole
darn time now she's oh, no, he'smy dog pound dog.
That I'm a little nutty over.
But she was a security blanket,you know?
(21:53):
And in some ways in thinking ofthat is so pathetic, but on the
other hand really well, I mean,I couldn't have a picture
without a dog in my hand,probably not, but, but on the
other hand, and this was part ofcompassionate, rational thinking
versus irrational.
I could say it like immatureenough just to have a photo
shoot without your dog.
(22:15):
And then my rational.
So I said, well, apparently notlet it go.
So what, you know, if that mademe feel more comfortable, just
like do it in the clothes.
You want the settings, whatever.
And in the big picture, itdoesn't matter.
And I do think what you'retalking about those connections.
(22:38):
Why do people want to see yourhouse or your studio?
Because it feels a big pictureand I understand you more and we
feel closer.
And especially right now in thelast year, it's, everybody's a
bit lonely.
Jen Tough (22:56):
Yeah, totally.
And I, I love personally, I wasloving the news during COVID
like when we were on lockdown,when you'd see like the
journalists or the reportershouse, you know, and I loved
that.
I love seeing how peopledecorated their house and what
was, you know, in some of themwere kind of like, there was one
guy on PBS news hour.
(23:17):
I can't remember his name, buthe always had like all this
booze sitting on his counter
Dee Tivenan (23:23):
on our channel seven, I really want to talk to
him about his paintings.
They were so dull in thebackground, but oh God, I know
it was more intimate.
Jen Tough (23:33):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I loved it.
I was like, so bummed when theystarted going back to the
studio, I was like, oh, Godreally gave me the zoom with the
shitty picture.
And at least I get to see, youknow, connect with other people.
You know what they really are.
You don't feel so lonely, youknow, or isolated, I guess is a
better word.
Dee Tivenan (23:52):
And I think it's good.
The momentum cause all of us,you know, a lot of us as artists
are trying to push the envelopea little bit in marketing, which
we're really not trained for.
Right.
So there's a big learning curve,but you know, we throw it out to
our friends, like, I'll say toKatie, or, you know, Marjory or
Valerie or whatever, like whatdo you think?
(24:14):
And they'll say, well, I likethis picture versus that
picture, use that one.
And I'll tell you extra, sendout some of these pictures for
the magazine.
Everybody liked a different oneby the way.
So that just says you can'tplease everyone.
Right.
Do what you're comfortable with.
And again, it's a small piece inthe, you know, in the
(24:38):
longitudinal piece of all of ourlives and no one looks at.
Anything have we look at it,
Jen Tough (24:43):
right.
And people are spending like 0.2seconds or something on, you
know, on anything.
They're just doing a rapidscroll.
They're not like picking aparthow your hair like looked in
this pit, you know, only we'redoing that.
No, one's paying attention tous.
Really.
Dee Tivenan (24:58):
That's really important.
Half of us don't even have ourreading glasses on when we're
looking.
So we're looking at porpuses orsomething.
I don't know.
Yeah.
You're in the, you
Jen Tough (25:07):
know, you're in the passenger seat or whatever,
hopefully not driving, but youknow, you're not, you're always
doing something else.
You're always multitasking.
Usually when you're scrollingthrough instant.
Yeah, which is something tothink about.
Yeah.
You know, cause I get, I get alot of comments from artists who
say, well, I don't want toinundate people with pictures
or, and it's like, you're not,there's, you know, there's
billions of images that aregoing through it.
(25:29):
You know, people are absorbingso much stuff now.
They don't absorb it.
Is that the whole thing?
Dee Tivenan (25:37):
There's so much information we're taking less.
Jen Tough (25:39):
So you're never going to eat.
There's no way you could competein a sense or overwhelm someone
with tons of stuff.
They're not, they're not payingthat much attention.
Dee Tivenan (25:48):
Yeah.
Anything that's listening tothis podcast write in and tell
us where you might be stuck withthis or where you're having a
hard job or
Jen Tough (25:58):
better yet go to Kindling, which is free.
If you go to Kindling likekindling when making a fire, dot
community, and you can post inthere talking about this
podcast, if you want.
And it's totally free.
You can go on there and talkwith other artists about how it,
you know, any uncomfort youmight have with promoting your
art or yourself, especially onInstagram.
(26:19):
So let's, let's talk about onething.
One of the main reasons peopleare afraid and myself too is you
know, putting pictures ofyourself or videos of yourself.
Is it, you know, you're afraidof the hate that might come,
you're afraid of those nastycomments, you know, that's,
that's, I think especially whenyou're putting yourself out into
the wide world, as opposed tojust your network of friends,
(26:41):
like, you know, your friends,when you showed them the photos
and they all had different ones,they like, but you know, if
you're putting stuff onInstagram, it's, it's the whole
entire world, and there arepeople out there who will say
awful things.
Dee Tivenan (26:52):
What kind of things have you heard that people have
said?
Jen Tough (26:55):
Well, people will be, you know, they'll critique your
appearance.
They'll, you know, tell you it'sa dumb idea or this is stupid or
whatever, you know what I mean?
Like they'll build, they canreally pick it apart, which I
found actually, you know, as, asan advertiser, like for the
gallery or for workshops thatyou might have coming up or
something like.
I mean, it's any kind of,there's a sales angle to it.
(27:18):
People are hypersensitive to it,which I understand.
But they, they sort of takeLiberty in critiquing or
criticizing you know, whatyou're doing and blah, blah,
blah.
And you've kind of openedyourself up for more of a world
of
Dee Tivenan (27:31):
I mean, are there some examples you can think
because you're a big fish, I'ma, like a minnow.
Jen Tough (27:36):
I wouldn't say that
Dee Tivenan (27:38):
that's not a bad thing.
You know, you're reallymarketing.
Let me,
Jen Tough (27:42):
let me, let me, I can't think of any specific
examples, maybe that, becauseactually, you know, I, I, those
things are, they're hurtful.
They're really hurtful.
And I think, no, no, no.
It's, it's like Well, I rememberwhen I was advertising for a
show and there was a call forentry fee.
I had one artist.
I'm assuming they're an artistright in, there was on Facebook
(28:03):
right in that, you know, artistsshouldn't have to pay for
anything you're fucking rippingartists off.
You know, you get a lot, you,you get that.
I think, but I think part ofthat was because it was a, you
know, it was an ad, it was apromoted, you know, call for
entries.
And people feel, they, I thinkthey feel like they have more
license to criticize and bemean, you know, I mean, it's
(28:25):
really unnecessary to do that.
Dee Tivenan (28:28):
I think there are a couple of things with that.
One is this my
Jen Tough (28:31):
therapy session on my pocket?
Dee Tivenan (28:35):
Yes.
Lie down.
I'm not speaking specifically.
Do you, I, but because you'renot the only one that's
experienced this, so I'm notsure, you know, but I think, I
mean, none of us have gonethrough life without being
(28:55):
criticized, you know?
And when I'm criticized, itnever feels good.
You know, I asked myself whatfits, what doesn't fit.
And that term is calledintrojection, you know, like if
someone says to me Dee or this,this, and this, like you're
silly stupid.
(29:15):
And short or something.
I don't know.
I can't think of anything.
Yeah.
I might say, well, I'm probablynot short cause I'm five eight,
but I don't think I'm stupid,but I certainly am silly.
You, you have, anybody can sayanything to anyone and you have
to decide what fits foryourself.
It's like going to a buffet andeating everything, whether you
like it or not, you go to abuffet and decide what you want
to eat.
Otherwise it doesn't feel good.
(29:37):
The other part is there are,will always be a percentage of
the population that are angryand feel badly about themselves
and deal with that by hurtingothers.
Always, I, I wasn't aware howbig it was till the last five,
six years I'm even shocked, butthere always as that population.
(30:01):
And so we need to.
Develop a little armor aroundthat.
And especially when it comes onFacebook and Instagram for God's
sakes, it's not personal, youknow, people aren't saying it to
your face, people that are mador angry can say it to you
without any consequences,because you have no idea who
(30:21):
they are.
It lacks authenticity anyway.
Cause he can't even dialoguewith them really and explained.
So when that, when that happens,we have to put it in a separate
category because most of thethings that we say really aren't
that controversial.
(30:43):
And if there's a fee forsomething, well then someone's
mad at you about well whereisn't there a fee.
You know, if I go to Macy's, amI mad because I have to buy
something, you know, businessesare businesses.
So.
I just try to delete that stuff.
Does this fit, do they have agood point?
If they're angry, I really don'twant anything to do with them,
(31:04):
but it's not a relationship forme.
So just deleted.
And again, I'm not people froman anonymous place.
Feel like they are morepowerful, but it's kind of sad
because these are people thatprobably don't have connections
are angry, lost, or whatever.
So just put it in thatconnection, but we do need to
(31:28):
have some armor and someresilience.
Cause when we put ourselves outthere, it will happen.
So again, just, you know, isthis something I can learn from?
Or I'm just going to let it gobecause it doesn't have to do
with me and you know, our brain,we get stirred up or anxiety,
(31:51):
whatever.
So then I'm not saying that ifthat happens to me, I don't have
any feelings about.
So then how do I de-stressmyself?
One is a self-talk one is justtaking a walk.
I can't I'm so surprised I getlike the hugest serotonin boost,
(32:11):
you know, just get outside, getoutside, see a tree, run it by
someone else, you know?
Yeah.
And, you know, use avisualization.
Sometimes I visualize like whatsomeone said to me that hurts or
bothering me, like, I've got todrop it off a cliff, so I can't
(32:34):
connect with it.
You know, whatever visualizationworks for you in terms of
letting go more, I'm going tobury it.
Or, or if I mad, I'm going tojust like stomp on it, you know,
and actually visualization toois helpful in putting ourselves
out.
And a picture like I'm visuallyvisualizing myself having a
(32:56):
successful picture.
I'm visualizing myself lookingconfident.
So it works both ways, but youknow, that kind of stuff who
needs it and none of us deserveit.
It doesn't matter, you know,whatever we do, we don't deserve
to be treated poorly.
(33:18):
Right.
You know, someone could say,Jen, I'm kind of concerned about
your price.
Can you tell me the reasoning?
Jen Tough (33:24):
Oh yeah.
Let's totally different.
Dee Tivenan (33:26):
None of us deserve to be treated poorly.
So, yeah.
Jen Tough (33:29):
Do you remember Bernay Brown's cause we both
love Bernay brown.
She was talking about when shefirst, the first time she was
sort of exposed, you know, tothe world, was that Ted talk?
She did.
And.
They they told her at first, ohno, one's going to see it.
You know, it was her first talkon vulnerability.
(33:50):
And then do you remember herretelling what happened as soon
as she realized that likehundreds of thousands of people
had watched this on YouTube andshe said, then the comments
started coming.
There was just awful, you know,like lose 20 pounds, blah, blah,
blah.
You know, just these whore, youknow, really awful, you know,
Dee Tivenan (34:11):
very critical.
Jen Tough (34:12):
Yeah.
And, and then, but then she, youknow, she's also talked about,
you know, when there's peoplewho are in the ring, you know,
in the, in the, you know, in thefighting ring or what, what,
what was the term she used whenyou're like in the Coliseum or
whatever.
That's what I was envisioningmaybe when she's talking about
being brave.
And then there's the people whoare like in the stands or
(34:33):
whatever, just sort of throwingthings at you, but living
bravely is about Yeah.
Yeah.
And there's, there's somethingto that.
Like the bravery andvulnerability.
It's it's,
Dee Tivenan (34:46):
I mean, we're all vulnerable.
That's what we have the wayintimacy is connecting to your
vulnerability.
Like if, you know, like you justtold me how you were harassed a
little bit and felt badly.
I was, I was vulnerable when Isaid, you know, I was insecure
about the pictures and heldMillie the whole time, you know,
(35:07):
so, but that lets us be closerand we're when we're closer, we
support each other.
It's, you know, it's arelationship now, the people in
the stands you know, those,those are people that, you know,
kind of make a profession out ofbeing critical, you know, like
(35:28):
she has those 20 pounds.
What does that have to do withtheir head talk?
Right.
Got her head talk.
Her Ted talk.
Oh, that's unique.
Jen Tough (35:35):
That's 20 pounds.
Dee Tivenan (35:38):
That has something to do with in there.
These people that just want tobe critical.
And there's some, one of us thatis isn't triggered by that.
Yeah.
But it's what we do with it andcompartmentalize it.
Remember those are peoplethough.
They don't even know us.
You know, she just had aninteresting thing with the
(35:59):
Spotify stuff and she went offand, and got back on it.
And if you guys want to listento her new things, she got a lot
of criticism either way, but howshe made her decision.
And, but the point is, you know,you can't put yourself out there
without having some risks, butwhat's the alternative.
The alternative is I'm going to,you know, live all by myself
(36:23):
with my dog and Netflix, youknow,
Jen Tough (36:26):
which sometimes sounds nice.
Dee Tivenan (36:28):
Yes.
But not 24, 7 for 70 years.
Yeah.
Putting ourselves out there andtaking risks also builds
confidence, build confidencejust in our head.
We can visualize it.
We can think it, we can plan it,but it has to be the experience.
Like, how do I want to getbetter at running?
(36:50):
It's just not thinking I have topractice.
So for everyone that'slistening.
If you've put yourself outthere, feel good about yourself.
Jen Tough (37:01):
Heck yeah,
Dee Tivenan (37:02):
it's a risk.
And the first time I was in apainting show oh my God.
You know, and all these babysteps of risks, but it's good.
It makes us feel alive.
It makes us feel proud.
And it's a stepping stone todoing more.
So I'm encouraging, you know,you, everyone take those risks.
(37:24):
You know, the selfie thing, thisis been socio-cultural for
centuries.
Judging women.
Yeah.
Everything, bodies, hair,whatever.
This is centuries old.
(37:44):
We, we, I mean, I, I'm not goingto change the world.
I know that, but remember,there's no basis to it except
judgment.
Jen Tough (37:56):
So, and we live in a very patriarchal society.
Dee Tivenan (38:01):
So, you know, we talk about expectations, but
think about judgment.
There's always ex extrinsicjudgment, external judgment, but
another tool is be aware of howmuch you're judging yourself and
do something different withthat.
You know, every time we go, Ooh,that's a horrible picture.
(38:23):
We're judging ourselves versusit's.
Okay.
Yeah, it's okay.
And I'm proud that I took therisk turn into something
positive, but we are usuallyharder on ourselves than anyone
else's but the good news is wecan change that by how we think,
how we think affects how wefeel.
(38:45):
If I think, you know, I'm beingcrummy at something, I'm going
to feel crummy.
If I think I'm doing okay withsomething I'm going to be okay.
Yeah.
So that's, self-talk, that'swinding in our head all the
time.
Meditation of breathing can helpthat we can learn some tools to
(39:07):
help that, but we want tovisualize that stop sign when it
goes down that negative road.
And like, even with whateverpeople say to you, Jen, you
know, because you do putyourself out there, you know,
it's not true.
It hurts.
And then.
(39:28):
Again, then you recover and, youknow, we can't be authentic
without a vulnerability.
Jen Tough (39:35):
Yeah, it's true.
And I wonder, I wonder too.
I think some people, you know,have had a history of bullying
or, you know, when they weregrowing up and they might have
more work to do around, youknow, being vulnerable you know,
and putting yourself out thereand the selfies or whatever.
You know, cause that, that canbe some people carry a bigger
(39:56):
load.
Dee Tivenan (39:58):
Yeah.
There's a lot of us that hadnormal growing up periods,
whatever that is.
I have that in quotes but youknow, everybody has their issues
including me.
But when we're talking abouttrauma, that's a different
thing.
You might want to get somesupport with it.
If you, if you really feel likeit's causing too much anxiety
(40:21):
for yourself, You don't have toput, you don't have to do a
picture.
Another thing is if you want towork through it to a therapist
yeah.
Get some support with it
Jen Tough (40:34):
and start with, you know, start with baby steps.
I mean, I can't tell artiststhat they shouldn't market
themselves.
I don't want to say that becauseI know that, you know, it's
really, I don't know.
I don't think you're sayingthat.
I just, you know, I don't, I D Idon't want to tell artists like,
oh, don't, you know, don't putyourself out there.
I want artists to put themselvesout there, but you can do it in
(40:55):
little baby steps.
Like, just show your hands or,you know, show your pet, or, you
know, start introducing thingsabout your personal world with,
that's not as sort of, not asvulnerable and sort of slowly
work up to it when you're ready,because
Dee Tivenan (41:11):
yes, I showed my nightgown with all the paint on
it.
Yeah.
I've discovered pictures fromfarther away.
I'm a little bit morecomfortable.
I didn't
Jen Tough (41:24):
a hundred feet.
See me by the tree over there.
Yeah.
Dee Tivenan (41:27):
Or a thousand, you know, but seriously there are
these baby steps of tools.
Jen Tough (41:37):
Yep.
Yeah.
I think the key is, you know, tojust let people in your world a
little bit, you don't have tobe, you know, like Kim
Kardashians, you know, showing,you know what I'm saying?
Like, you know, there's, it'snot one or the other, it's not
like, you know, not showingyourself at all or being like,
you know, one of thosepretentious people with a selfie
(41:57):
stick, it's, you know, it's justletting people in your, in your
world a little bit, but also onelittle step at a time, you know?
Dee Tivenan (42:07):
And so yes.
Start with baby steps.
What you're comfortable with,and this is you, and this is
your life and make it work thereisn't a right way for everyone.
There really isn't no rules.
Yeah.
And there might be a time thatwe're more comfortable putting
(42:29):
ourselves out there in a timethat we're not.
So just go with, you know,wherever you are.
And I, I think we don't want tohave one more thing to be
critical of ourselves about, andthat's, that's something to be
really aware of
Jen Tough (42:47):
being an artist, creating artwork and putting
your art out there asvulnerable.
Dee Tivenan (42:54):
The first time I did it, you know,
Jen Tough (42:56):
it's, that's really, you know, I like, I am so amazed
and so impressed, especiallywith women who.
You know, might've been anartist early on or had an
interest in it, put it asidebecause they had to stay home
and raise the kids, or they weredoing another job to bring, you
know, to support the family orwhatever it is, had to put it
(43:16):
aside.
And then they come back to it.
That is so brave to me, that isamazing and brave.
And, you know, and then showingthat work and, you know, so just
know that like, if you're atthat place where you're kind of
coming back to being an artistor you're, you know, reemerging
as I call it and you're putting
Dee Tivenan (43:37):
starting at 59, like I did.
Jen Tough (43:39):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
And then putting, you know,you're, you're following your
passion finally, which, which inthat like right there alone is
so vulnerable to do that.
You're putting yourself in arole vulnerable blah position,
but, but then it's so brave to,I mean, I'm amazed at I'm S I
love, I love when I see womendoing that, I love that coming
(44:02):
back to their passion.
Dee Tivenan (44:05):
And this isn't your therapy, obviously, but even you
taking risks starting this wholeAA thing and the kindling
Jen Tough (44:11):
We can have my therapy.
Maybe we just have my therapy asa new podcast.
No one would care.
It would be like the lowest
Dee Tivenan (44:18):
they would.
They think we were likegoofballs, which we actually
are.
You know, if it comes back to,you know, we're talking about
all these things, we're talkingabout vulnerability, we're
talking about taking risks.
We're talking about pushingourselves.
We're talking about trying toget from A to B with all the
resistance is resistance is aword with all the resistance.
Jen Tough (44:40):
So it's a massive hill to climb.
Dee Tivenan (44:42):
Yeah.
Thank you very much.
Whether it's art, family money,whatever.
So how do we deal with that?
Whether it's an art or life orwhatever.
Yeah, we're talking about art,but, but it's, it's our lives.
So do I want to feel betterabout ourselves?
(45:05):
We have to be aware of that andwe have to you know, support us.
We're we're good aboutsupporting our kids or say
that's a nice picture.
Jen Tough (45:15):
That'd be a whole other podcast.
How women ignore their ownneeds.
Dee Tivenan (45:20):
It's like the oxygen mask on the plane.
Yeah, no.
And so we have to look at whatwe've accomplished.
Have to look at how resilientwe've been, which is true.
We want to look at B howcourageous we are every time.
(45:41):
You put yourself out there ortake a risk or try something
new, like try to draw in class.
And you always say you can'tdraw, which is not you, but it's
irrational.
That's what we say, oh, I can'tdo that.
Or people that say I'm notcreative, which isn't true.
Every time we take that risk, beproud of ourselves.
What kind of people do we wantto be?
(46:03):
We want to be kind.
We want to be good.
We want to be considered we'reimperfect, but we want to grow.
So look at this as growth.
And if you're having troubledoing whatever, anything, look
at that and break it down intolittle baby steps and maybe get
some help and say, you know, ifthis is important to me, I want
(46:27):
to do this in a small, safe waybecause you know, I mean, I
don't, I I'm not, I don't wantto get into anything religious
obviously, but all I know isright now, you know, and this
is, this is the time right now,you know, and what you bring up
(46:50):
is the women and socio-culturalthings too.
And we're making a statement foreveryone, but also our daughters
Jen Tough (47:00):
know, wow, this is a big issue in our house right now
because my daughter is 16.
So you remember that
Dee Tivenan (47:08):
they don't miss a thing.
And if she sees you taking arisk, even though she, you know,
I mean, she might, or she might,I don't know, but I I'm
surprised how they don't miss athing.
I mean, that's why we tellparents, don't say it don't say
(47:29):
anything about your kids'weight.
Don't say anything about theireating, you know unless they
want come to you, let's stay outof all that stuff.
Let you know, don't make themfeel like they're being watched.
Jen Tough (47:40):
Yeah.
But as women, you know, as womenlike putting ourselves out
there, there's a whole othergigantic bag.
It isn't just like baggage.
It's a, it's a fucking, youknow, carload full of crap that,
you know, that we, because forour whole entire lives, I mean,
I think especially women over40, you know, there was a
particular way that you weresupposed to look, there was a
(48:00):
particular way that you weresupposed to act.
There was, you know, a lot oftongue biting, you know, like
don't say that don't act thisway.
You know, a lot of ignoring andmeetings at work.
You know, it, it, you know, sothere's a whole other sort of
level to this of not sure how tosort of navigate this, this new
social media world and, youknow, because we were judged for
(48:24):
most of our lives on these verysuperficial.
Dee Tivenan (48:27):
And I think that's.
Yeah,
Jen Tough (48:30):
I think, I do think it was worse though, you know,
for people who are women who areover 40, I think, I think it's a
little better now.
Like, especially after me too.
And you know what I mean?
It's, it, it feels maybe I'mtotally wrong, but it feels a
little better than it was.
You know, it's even talked aboutmore, like, I remember when the
whole me too thing started like,oh my God, people are talking
(48:53):
about this?
You know, like I remembermeeting I went to visit some of
my girlfriends from high schooland North Carolina Marie and
Toby, my dearest darlingfriends.
I love them so much.
And you know, we were talkingabout the whole me too thing and
the Kavanaugh hearings and allthat.
And one of my friends said well,it was just another Saturday
(49:13):
night.
Like you're just, you know, likegetting groped or whatever, you
know what I mean?
Like you
Dee Tivenan (49:17):
just have a Lear about it.
Cause it happened so much.
Jen Tough (49:20):
It just was like, you know and you know, her comment
kind of took me back a littlebit, but she's right.
You know, it's like, we didn'ttalk about that stuff.
It's just was what was expected.
So I think when women of ourgeneration, your generation, you
know, et cetera, are dealingwith these, you know, exposing
themselves, which is the way itkind of feels it's, it's, you
(49:42):
know, putting yourself out therelike that, you, you, you sort of
carry that past, you knowinformation experiences, you
know, or color, all of that,even more, you know, like how
you should behave, what youshould do, what you should say,
what you can say that kind ofthing, how I'm going to be
judged for what I'm wearing.
(50:02):
You know, like I remember when Iwas the art director at Warner
brothers records and it was abig job and fancy job and you
know, but like the, the maledesigners or whatever who worked
there, they didn't have to worryso much about their clothes.
Right.
Like, there was always like and,you know, since I was blonde and
blue eyed and younger for havingthat position, there was always
(50:23):
that sort of, there was justlike,
Dee Tivenan (50:26):
yeah, I really feel from my mother's generation.
Oh my God.
And my grandmother's, I mean,yes, holy shit.
I, you know, obviously I can'tspeak for everyone, but my mom
was the perfect housewife andhad dinner on the table and
horderves from my father andvolunteered.
(50:49):
He didn't want her to work, youknow, just really in this box.
And you know, it's funny since,and this can go both ways since
mostly I've been in privatepractice and I never felt that
too much.
It may have been judged orwhatever.
(51:09):
That's great.
Being a female.
I mean, I was judged on otherthings, but but on the other
hand, when you do things outsideof the box, you can be judged
too.
You know what I mean?
But I I'm pretty lucky or else Icompletely repressed it, but I
(51:32):
think that's, in some ways why Iwent into private practice
because I really felt for mymother and, and they got
divorced when she was 56 and shehad to go back to work and, you
know, she was a Wellesleygraduate who, you know, had
horderves for my father, youknow, I mean, but that was the
culture.
(51:53):
So I think I always picksomething that I could kind of
control and yeah, but I knowit's there and you see it
everywhere.
So that's the other thing too.
You know, it is vulnerable totake a stand to it.
And the more you do that, you,you pick where you're going to
(52:13):
take a stand.
Like, you know what I, you know,I mean, I don't know your
background that well, but liketake you to stand at Warner
brothers.
Might've been too vulnerable foryou, but taking a stand with an
artist that wasn't being kind toyou.
Yeah.
Jen Tough (52:31):
Well, you know, it's funny because I think with age
comes obviously more wisdom andyou know, if I was to have that
job now, there's no effing wayI'd put up with the bullshit.
Right.
Like it would be, you know, butwhen you're, you know, I think I
was only like 30, so reallyyoung.
Dee Tivenan (52:46):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, I'm sorry, but
Jen Tough (52:51):
I remember when my mom, I have one little story
about my mother who was a real,she's a real feminist, she's
still alive, but you know, shewas involved with legal women
voters and she, you know, wasreally, you know, involved with
all these things.
And I remember one time I wasprobably about five and we went
into the local hardware store.
We walked in there and my momwas, I don't know, let's say it
(53:11):
was a hammer.
I have no idea what she wasasking for, but she couldn't
find it.
So she went to the counter.
And of course it was all men andthey laughed at her.
They laughed at her.
And I remember this momentbeing, so, you know, I remember
it clearly, you know, Laughingat her because, you know, what
would you tell your husband tocome in here and get it?
They told her and she flippedout
Dee Tivenan (53:35):
Good for her.
Jen Tough (53:36):
She flipped out.
I mean, of course as a littlegirl, I was like, what's
happening.
You know, it wasn't really surewhat was going on, but that's
how bad it was.
So this was probably like, Idon't know, 19 73, 72, something
like that.
Wow.
So imagine was like in thefifties, or
Dee Tivenan (53:53):
as you could see the, the very descript roles for
people, it's my parents,grandparents.
And when we talk about trauma,the effect of the war on these
generations, we had the Vietnamwar, but we have the COVID war.
And so, you know, that is havingan effect on.
(54:17):
Whether we want it to, oh yeah,that's enough.
The orange nightmare.
Get this stuff we're talkingabout where we're, you know,
we're heading this podcast interms of helping people feel
better about themselves with thethings that are uncomfortable
with particularly selfies orputting your paintings out there
(54:43):
or, and how to do it and come toterms with it and feel okay
about it.
But the bigger picture, allthese tools are life tools,
whether it's a selfie or you'restanding up to your boss, I, you
know, you're applying for a jobor, or.
(55:05):
Trying to bobsled for the firsttime I watched a little of the
Olympics, but it's all the same,very little cold there for me,
but it's all the same stuff.
You're just holding this withselfies.
It's all the same stuff in termsof, you know, what am I want to
(55:26):
do right now with my life inthis moment?
And what's my plan and yes, willI be uncomfortable?
Sure.
While I lived through that.
Sure.
How can I break it down and babysteps.
So I don't take too much atonce.
And how can I acknowledge myselfand appreciate myself over and
(55:51):
over again?
Again, it's like a muscle, allthis stuff over and over again.
And when I get too stressed,what are my tools?
I'm going to listen to ameditation tape.
I might put on music and dance.
I might take a walk.
I might call a friend in vent Imight, for me, I'm a, like
(56:11):
really big on naps you know?
So, so we're, we're embracingthat, you know, like I said, a
piece of cake, but everybodythat's listening probably likes
challenges.
That's why they're listingeverybody.
That's an artist or anythingelse.
We're, we're, we're driven totake on new challenges.
(56:35):
So expect we're going to bevulnerable, expect that it's not
gonna work out well.
Every time expect that we lovethe results.
Jen Tough (56:48):
You will.
And you know, the other thingthat I want to add to your list
of things that you can do tomake it a little easier, a
little better is you know, findyour community of artists.
Cause I know in the ArtistsAlliance, we're so supportive of
each other that has turned outto be such an amazingly
supportive, yummy community.
(57:10):
And you know, everyone is, youknow, when someone is
vulnerable, you've got like, youknow, 15, 30, 40, 50, even more
comments of people, they aresupporting each other because
everyone's kind of going throughthe same thing everyone's trying
to, you know, make their career,you know, better advance their
career, you know, or getfeedback on a painting or, you
(57:34):
know, we talk about everythingand it's just, it's turned into
such a supportive place.
Dee Tivenan (57:39):
It's been a life saver for so many people.
Jen Tough (57:42):
I think so too.
Dee Tivenan (57:43):
Yeah.
It, and it's authenticeverybody.
That's listening.
Jen and I have talked aboutartists lions from the
beginning.
And I write a column head talkin there where we talk about
some of the emotional issues orjust goofy things.
And the whole, the wholeAlliance is about support and
(58:06):
that's not easy to come by.
And I think Jen has set aprecedent, you know, really no
politics in here, no puttingeach other down.
And I feel like it's authentic.
Not only is there support, butalso people like I was having
trouble with my paper.
People gave me ideas that it,it's not just emotional support,
(58:28):
it's technical support,
Jen Tough (58:31):
it's all sorts of stuff.
Dee Tivenan (58:34):
And what's cool about it is that there are
people from all over thecountry.
And I know so many more people.
Than I ever met in my life thatI really like.
So yes, the tool of support isreally important.
I mean, for me, I actually sayevery week I'm quitting
painting, you know, I'm not,that's my go-to frustration.
Jen Tough (58:58):
Yeah.
I'm running away.
I'm quitting
Dee Tivenan (59:02):
my fleet response, you know, which is kind of my,
my thing.
You know, that that's myvulnerable thing.
But I know I'm not going to buythat gives me a little safety
for a little bit.
And then I go back to, well, youwant to hear a funny story?
It's kind of pathetic, but it'sfunny.
Jen Tough (59:18):
I love pathetic funny
Dee Tivenan (59:22):
because I was a kid.
Divorced.
And I'm not angry at my parentsand I never knew if someone was
leaving or whatever.
I was kind of scared to getmarried.
I knew I wanted to be withKevin.
That was no question.
And I broke out in hives on ourwedding day.
Okay.
So then whenever we have a tif Iput on I'm from Chicago, but now
(59:42):
we were in California, my downbig down coat that went down to
my ankles,
Jen Tough (59:48):
like a sleeping bag.
Dee Tivenan (59:49):
I'm leaving.
Of course it's like 90 degrees.
So we worked out you gottaimagine this.
It was blue.
It was really one of those bigones.
So we worked out that.
I mean, obviously I couldn'tleave, obviously I didn't want
to leave, but I could put on mydown coat, say I'm leaving and
go to the door and that out thedoor in the, in the first year
(01:00:11):
of marriage, you can imagine,you know,
Jen Tough (01:00:13):
so this is something that you guys set up.
Dee Tivenan (01:00:16):
Okay.
Yeah.
I mean, it got to give Kevinsome credit, cause he's
probably.
God, why did I marry her?
Oh, that's the worst.
But that, that was always mything.
This kind of to flee before ithurt or something.
So we we'd have a little Tiffand go and buy.
Now.
It was kind of funny.
(01:00:37):
I'm leaving, put on this downcoat down to my ankles, 90
degrees and go to the door andthen, but I can't go out the
door.
So you standing at the door andpretty soon you're thinking this
is kind of silly, but we, so mypoint, which I kind of lost
(01:00:57):
anyway.
But my point is we have to haveour ways of working things out
where we really aren't hurtingourselves or her hurting anyone
else.
And I'm big on humor.
I'm big on laughing at myselfand laughing at whatever.
I can, cause I think we are allpretty darn goofy and that's
(01:01:18):
another thing to embrace like,oh man, I just spent 10 hours
obsessing about this, you know,selfie or whatever, what a waste
of my time for God's sakes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That is the goofiest thing, youknow?
So yeah, so you need yourpeople, you need the support,
(01:01:39):
you need your own tools knowingyou, you know,
Jen Tough (01:01:44):
all that stuff.
Dee Tivenan (01:01:45):
I mean, when you get hurt or attacked or
something with AA, what do yousay first?
I mean, cause you're resilient,
Jen Tough (01:01:54):
Artist Alliance with AA with we call Artists Alliance
AA for short, but it's notreally,
Dee Tivenan (01:02:02):
we're not drinking
Jen Tough (01:02:05):
what you mean when someone like,
Dee Tivenan (01:02:06):
Get upset that.
Jen Tough (01:02:10):
What do I do personally?
I try to put it in perspective.
I try to understand that theperson who is, you know, coming
at me, if they come at me in anasty way that they're, you
know, they're probably, they'reprobably hurting.
Right.
They're probably, you know, andyou've said lots of times that
I'm kind of like mom in thatgroup.
(01:02:30):
Right.
So kids just like, I don't havefeelings.
I think a lot of people thinkthat, you know, like, oh, you
know, so they just feel likethey can just kind of throw
stuff at me.
And I don't know it is what itis.
It's it's.
Dee Tivenan (01:02:47):
So you try to understand that and that's
mature and understand it's notall about you.
Yeah.
And that's another tool I knowI'm throwing out tools
intermittently more about,
Jen Tough (01:03:01):
it's more about the other person.
If the, depending on how they goat you, right?
Like if they're hurting people,hurt people, right?
Like there's something, somereason why they want to, you
know,
Dee Tivenan (01:03:12):
and so they're vulnerable and they're turning
into anger and it's not aboutme.
I don't like it.
It's uncomfortable.
Yeah.
But it's not about me.
If it is about me, then I havesomething to learn.
But you know, it's not about me,but we're again, bringing this
(01:03:33):
back to life.
These are all the tools we usein life.
You know, who hasn't been hurt,rejected,
Jen Tough (01:03:41):
and you survive.
Dee Tivenan (01:03:44):
We're surviving even though.
I got the time wrong three timesfor this part, but I love what
Jen said.
She kept saying, no worries.
No worries.
I'm on, I'm on California time.
She's in New Mexico time.
Jen Tough (01:04:01):
Yeah.
It's no big deal,
Dee Tivenan (01:04:02):
but, but I like, and this is something you guys
can integrate to.
Jen says no worries.
And I think that's another lineto integrate also.
Yeah.
But again, if people have stuffwith their stuff with it or
feedback about this podcast, letus know.
(01:04:25):
we like to chat.,
Jen Tough (01:04:28):
which makes me think that we should wrap this up.
Okay.
But it was great because, youknow, we started talking about
Trump and how messed up thingsare.
And we talk, we talked about somany things and I hope people
got something out of this.
I'm sure they did.
And I really thank you forcoming on and chatting with me.
Oh.
Because we could go on forever.
Dee Tivenan (01:04:47):
I know.
And we have, you should see someof our phone calls, but thank
you for having me.
I really appreciate it.
And, and I love learning fromyou too.
Jen Tough (01:04:57):
Well, I love my virtual therapy sessions.
Dee Tivenan (01:05:01):
No charge.
The thank you so much.
Thanks, Jen
Jen Tough (01:05:08):
Thank you so much for listening and supporting this
podcast.
Your support means everything.
If you'd like to learn moreabout the Artists Alliance
community.
Send me a question or learnabout other events or projects
coming up, please visit mywebsite at www.Jentough.gallery.
See you next time.
Welcome to Tough on Art, the podcast for artists
interested in ways to get aheadin today's art market.
I'm Jen Tough owner of Jen ToughGallery and the Artist Alliance
community.
Join me for some down to earth.
Talk about the best ways forartists to navigate this new and
different landscape.
Hi everybody.
Welcome to Tough on Art, Thisis, Jen, and today I'm super
(00:20):
excited to have Dee Tivenan backwith me again, and Hi Dee, how
are you?
Dee Tivenan (00:27):
Hi Jen, it's good to be here.
Thank you.
Jen Tough (00:29):
Where are you right now?
Dee Tivenan (00:31):
Well, right now I'm at Katie Korotzer's house
because I don't trust mycomputer skills to get this
right.
So good old Katie, we needfriends.
Jen Tough (00:44):
Katies' One of your artists, friends.
Dee Tivenan (00:47):
We're here in Orinda, California.
Yeah.
Jen Tough (00:49):
And how how's the weather there right now?
It's February, 2022.
Dee Tivenan (00:53):
Yes.
It just got a little chilly, butthat's okay.
And we're hoping for.
Jen Tough (00:57):
Nice.
So we were just talking.
Yeah, no, he, no February, buteverything's blooming west coast
stuff starts coming up so early,so nice.
So we were just talking aboutbefore we started recording that
we were kind of in recovery fromTrump and everybody is sort of,
(01:20):
I don't know.
What do you think?
You're the therapist?
Dee Tivenan (01:22):
I think we are traumatized to various degrees.
I think we have everythingthat's been going on in our own
lives personally.
And then the Trump years youknow, shocked me.
I didn't know that we could losedemocracy.
I didn't know the extent ofracism really.
I knew it was there.
(01:42):
I didn't know the extent ofantisemitism and then the
adjustment of COVID.
It doesn't appear to be over.
I heard that this one, there'sanother strand.
So we're, we're reorganizing ourlives in a way, and our
children's lives and ourgrandchildren's lives in a way
that we've never known.
So we, we have a big loss ofcontrol.
(02:05):
We don't know what the nextthing is.
Even though we never havecontrol.
Sometimes we feel like we havemore than we do now.
We've lost social interaction toa certain degree and that loss,
we're seeing a lot more anxiety,a lot more depression.
It's really hard to get intotherapists these days.
Everybody's overbooked.
(02:26):
I'm seeing a lot of suicides,even though the research is not
in my clientele.
I got, but even though theresearch is saying that suicides
are up, maybe they're morepublic.
I don't know, but people arestrained and there's a lot of
semantic things that are comingwith that.
Like headaches, not sleeping.
Et cetera.
So boy, is it a time to takecare of ourselves and take care
(02:50):
of each other and be aware ofthis?
Is a hard time.
Jen Tough (02:55):
Yeah.
Yeah.
There's a little, I mean, it'skind of like the whole country
sort of, or the whole world evenhas a little bit of PTSD, you
know, I don't mean to make lightof that at all.
Dee Tivenan (03:05):
No, you're not.
I think we do.
And I think there's a lotstarting to be written about
that.
For healthcare workers, youknow, for therapists, but we
really don't know longitudinallywhat it's gonna look like for
the kids that have been wearingmasks or the kids have been home
from school or the millennialsthat were just getting launched
(03:29):
and now are back home or can'tget jobs or can't buy houses.
So longitudinally, we don'treally know.
And.
I think there's a fear of thenext election.
So people have to be aware ofthat.
We're much more hypervigilant,you know, like we get anxious
(03:51):
work quickly, we startled morequickly.
We're more reactive.
And so that's where themindfulness comes in in this
moment.
I'm safe.
Oh, now I'm in the next moment.
I'm still safe versus thinkingahead, like what if, what if,
you know, but our minds go thereand so bring ourselves back to
(04:16):
the moment and, you know, makesure we exercise and I'm not
talking about anything buthealth and help with anxiety and
depression and, you know, pay,pay attention to ourselves.
And we're cranking.
I I've never sworn so much in myhead as I do that
Jen Tough (04:37):
really.
I swear aloud all the time.
Dee Tivenan (04:39):
I know you're good at it.
You know, I sailor mouth.
I know that.
And your parents weren't evensailors.
I don't know.
I'm always worried in my head.
It's always coming out, but I'msurprised what's going on in
there, but yes, it it's it's areally unsettling time for all.
Jen Tough (04:59):
Yeah, which kind of is a good segue or not a good
segue into talking about whatwe're going to talk about, which
is putting yourself out there onsocial media.
And, you know, that's a hugething, you know, so you have all
this stuff in the background,you know, this sort of anxiety,
this like post-Trump, you know,PTSD COVID stuff.
(05:23):
And then on top of it, you know,artists have to need to you
know, market themselves.
And one of the best ways tomarket themselves is, you know,
is to put their face onInstagram, put their, put their
selves on Facebook, you know,whatever that might be, but
putting yourselves out, puttingyourself out there a little bit
more.
And that's so hard,
Dee Tivenan (05:45):
you know, when I started painting like 12 years
ago, it, first of all, I neverthought I'd be.
Selling or anything else, but Ihad no idea of the business,
part of this.
I was still kind of completelyshocked and yes, that is a big
part.
This marketing that I'mrealizing.
(06:05):
And the thing is, this is awhole socio-cultural thing.
That's happened with women andmen over the years.
Now it's more men than it usedto be, but that's been
self-conscious, that's been bodyshamed us feeling not good about
ourselves.
Let's looking at magazines andfeeling like, even though we
know they're Photoshop, we don'tlook good enough or whatever.
(06:26):
So it's a whole nother step interms of being aware of that
exists.
I don't know any woman thatunfortunately, that can say I
just love every part of my body.
We're trying to get there, but Idon't know anyone.
Eating disorders away up bodydysmorphic disorder is way up
(06:48):
and body dysmorphic disorder iswhen we don't see our bodies
accurately.
For example, anorexic personwould see themselves being
overweight.
And now, you know, in the lastnumber of years, we've seen men
have more anorexia and bodydysmorphic disorder because
they're into fashion wherethey're on magazines, more,
their looks matter more.
(07:09):
So now here we are just kind ofnormal people putting ourselves
out on Instagram, Facebook, andI was kind of the last person in
the universe to have a cellphone.
And so then as it was JenniferPerlmutter and her galleries and
Lafayette, and is a friend ofmine and she said, you need to
go on Instagram.
I go no, no.
(07:29):
And then she grabbed my phone,took a picture, put it on
Instagram.
And she said, get over it justlike that.
And then went on her busy way.
Right?
She kind of forced me into it.
And it's not as easy as justgetting over it, but it's not a
(07:50):
bad way of looking at it interms of what's the worst thing
that can happen and get over it.
Don't focus so much on yourselfbecause in reality, most people
aren't looking at ourselves theway we look at ourselves.
Yeah.
And that's important toremember.
I just had an interesting thingbecause I was kind of lucky an
(08:12):
Orinda living magazine came outand I'm going to be on the cover
of it in March and a story andsame thing.
I'm going like, oh my God cover.
And I looked at all the picturesthey were maybe taking in about
man, how did I get to be 71?
How did this all happen?
But using the same tools of one,a positive thing, I'm lucky that
(08:34):
they're doing it.
That's a nice thing too.
You know, what's the worst thingthat could happen.
Three.
This is the worst thing thathappen is really nothing.
Unless I don't stop myself, talkfor this might be good for art
and I'm growing and experience,but whether it's you know,
(08:57):
photos on Instagram or on ourwebsite or speaking, it's all
the same thing in terms ofembracing ourselves using
positive self-talk and theself-talk is like, we're always
have a dialogue inside of ourheads and we can really run
ourselves in the ground with it,like, oh man, I'm going to be
(09:18):
terrible on this podcast.
And Jen's never going to ask meagain because I always get the
time wrong.
But by the way, everyone, I didget the time wrong.
But or I can say it's fun tobanter with Jen.
This isn't a rehearsed thing,and this is a good experience.
I can turn it around and kind ofmake the, you know, it is what
(09:40):
it is.
It's another moment in my life.
So in all these situations, wereally have to be aware of our
self-talk our perspective, whatexpectations are we setting for
ourselves?
My expectation isn't that I'mgoing to be perfect on this
podcast.
I don't even know what perfectmeans.
I don't even think it exists,but if I set that expectation
(10:04):
up, or if I set an expectation,I have to sell this many
paintings or I have to paintlike Gogan this year, you know,
I'm setting myself up to failversus again, coming back to the
moment I am, where I am, andthis is a good place to be.
(10:25):
So I, I, I just want to tell youthis study, that.
Jen Tough (10:30):
You're getting out the papers.
I hear the paper.
Dee Tivenan (10:33):
I won't do that.
Jen Tough (10:35):
You have something written down, which is more than
I've got.
I'm just,
Dee Tivenan (10:41):
I can't find it on all these sheets, but anyway,
but the study was, it was likein 2002 that women, and this is
so tragic would rather like havea leg amputated or whatever.
Then the fat shamed,
Jen Tough (10:59):
majority who rather have Jesus.
Really.
Dee Tivenan (11:04):
I know that's why I wrote it down,
Jen Tough (11:05):
but oh, that's so awful.
Dee Tivenan (11:07):
You know, all these other things instead of being
fat shamed.
And so that says has how deep itis.
Yes.
And I worked with eatingdisorders for 40 years.
Sorry that made a little noise.
I'm drinking everyone water.
(11:27):
And it, it is so deep.
These girls look at magazinesand say, I don't look like that.
We look at older people.
I just saw that Courtney Coxsaid, I don't look good with
these fillers, which I'm happythat she realized that because
she look like those lip fillers.
I hate that.
I didn't see the lip, but thecheeks, but it's not normal
(11:48):
looking, you know?
Jen Tough (11:50):
Yeah.
There's like a weird look withpeople who get too much plastic
surgery or like much like thoselip injections, those things.
Dee Tivenan (11:56):
Those are a little scary to me.
Jen Tough (11:58):
Yeah.
It doesn't, it's really awfullooking,
Dee Tivenan (12:03):
but it is about that.
We are not okay.
I'm not telling anyone thatthere isn't going to be some
struggle.
You know,
Jen Tough (12:13):
struggle is real.
Dee Tivenan (12:15):
Yeah, but what end did we come out in it for me?
Do I let my hair go gray or notgo gray?
I'm thinking about that.
How I've never been this agebefore, and that's probably fits
for everyone else with theirages.
And so how, how do I deal withthis?
How do you deal with gettingolder and respecting yourself,
(12:40):
respecting your body?
Yeah.
And still having confidence.
And what people say is thatconfidence just happens.
It's not true.
I've never seen a baby come outand say, it's not true.
I'm feeling really good aboutmy, yeah.
Jen Tough (12:55):
You know, you remember like, COVID of course
you remember COVID.
But when my gallery closed and Ineeded to do this pivot and it
needed to be online.
And, you know, in order to sortof let people know what I was
doing, I was doing all thesefree webinars.
Oh my God.
Holy shit.
The first few I did, I was sonervous.
(13:17):
I mean, I was real, but I forcedmyself to do it and I just, you
know, I just kept doing it.
And, and it's true what theysay, like the more you do that
kind of thing, the easier itgets.
And now, now I'm not nervous atall.
Now I enjoy it.
Like it's because it's simpleand I can connect with people.
And but I was really, reallynervous
Dee Tivenan (13:35):
at you're raising a really good point and that's
called exposure.
The more we do something, theeasier it is.
Like if you're afraid to driveacross the bridge, you go in
little baby steps, go to thebridge, do some deep breathing,
go home, then go to the bridgeand you go a little bit farther
and go home.
And so it's the same way as ourselfies or our marketing on
(13:59):
Instagram or Facebook orwhatever the first time, you
know, Jen Perlmutter just hijackme God.
And now it's like, okay, I putit on.
You know, I don't really spendthat much time looking at
myself.
And this is part of what it is.
And the self-talk is no onereally cares.
(14:20):
I look at people all the timeand it's just nice to get to
know them.
I'm not really judging them.
So it's exposure and confidence.
Confidence is like a muscle.
Like I said, the baby comes outand is, oh, I'd feel so good
about my new belly button orsomething.
I know kids are born withdifferent temperaments, but
confidence is like a muscle thatwe have to practice.
(14:42):
You have to practice it withthat.
Self-talk I did that prettywell.
You know, another tool iswriting in journal, a journal or
writing down all the things wedid well today.
Overdo it on being the self,being self critical on anything
like on everything.
(15:03):
I didn't get enough done or Iburnt my toast or whatever, but
we don't focus enough on what wedo do well.
And that does erode ourcompetence.
So being positive self-talkabout ourself and I'm not
Pollyanna.
I'm not saying like, you knowthat I cleaned the house
perfectly, but I did get thelaundry done.
(15:23):
And that's a good thing, youknow?
So we want to focus on thepositive.
I think everybody that'slistening.
If they asked ourselves when thelast time was, they appreciated
themselves, I think it might beawhile.
We want to say it out loud.
It's interesting.
When we say
Jen Tough (15:42):
difference, instead of
Dee Tivenan (15:44):
waiting for it, you can write it, but it's very
impactful.
If you say, like, I felt goodabout that painting versus just
thinking about it.
It's a little bit moreimpactful.
Even if you're in bad mood, ifyou smile, you start to feel
better.
You know?
So we want to say it out loud.
(16:04):
We want to recognize it.
I'm exercising my confidencetoday.
And that's important because Iwant to be happier.
I want to feel better aboutmyself.
I'm sick of putting myself downand, you know, and with these
whole selfie things in themarketing, I I'm, everybody's at
a different degree with this.
Everybody's in a differentplace, you know, I'm okay where
(16:28):
I am.
And I left Lauren A.
Crane statement.
She's an artist in Australia byBartis and her, her line is
perfectly imperfect.
And I use that and I think aboutit all the time.
And that's really what we are.
And do you want to say somethingI'm just chatting away here?
(16:48):
I've had my coffee.
Jen Tough (16:51):
Well, you know, I think that it's really easy to
just sort of, for artists tojust ignore the idea of putting
themselves out there on, youknow, let's just use Instagram,
for example, you know, not evenjust a live, but like a picture
of yourself next to yourpainting or whatever.
It's like when we, you know,it's difficult, it's easier to
just say I'm not going to do,I'm just not going to do that.
I'm just going to post picturesof my work.
(17:12):
It's safer.
You know, oh, I'm an artist.
People should just pay attentionto my work and not me, but
there's been a shift.
And I think part of it's COVIDpart of, it's just, you know,
how powerful social media is nowthat their needs, people want
that connection with the artist.
I see this time and time again,you know, people rather buy from
(17:32):
the artist directly.
They rather know the artists,they want that connection.
They want that artist's story.
And the only way to do that isto put yourself out there on
Instagram, go to art fairs andstand there and talk about your
work.
You know, when we did theInstagram challenge and the
Artists Alliance last year, AndI gave like a, it was a
challenge.
So I gave a whole bunch ofdifferent ideas and prompts for
(17:54):
people like this one.
You're just going to show yourhands in the shot, the next shot
you're going to, you know, haveit's going to be you with a
painting.
You know, you don't have to showyour body.
You can hide behind yourpainting if you want, but show
your face, you and that kind ofthing.
And the ones that were morepersonal, like people's pets,
the artists inside their studio,stuff that gave context to that
person, to the artist as aperson, remember it did so well,
(18:18):
people got the best responsefrom it, you know, because I
think when artists just posttheir work, there's this
underlying understanding fromthe viewers that, oh, they just
want me to buy their painting.
It's just another thing to buy.
It's just another that, youknow, they want that connection
with people.
So it's really powerful to beable to show yourself.
Dee Tivenan (18:38):
I think so, too connection is a basic need.
Yeah.
You know, a primal need and Ican see you now.
And you can see me, and this isbetter than just talking on the
phone because we have more of aconnection.
Jen Tough (18:52):
Yeah.
Dee Tivenan (18:53):
So that's why I agree with you.
It is important, but do it inways that you feel comfortable.
Jen Tough (18:59):
Sure.
Yeah.
Dee Tivenan (19:00):
No, you don't have to where, like, you know, where,
where what's comfortable, youdon't have to worry about
anybody else's wearing, be in asetting that's comfortable.
Jen Tough (19:08):
We start with just showing your hands, right.
Lego.
You're saying like going to thebridge and just doing the deep
breathing.
If you're afraid to cross abridge in your car, you know,
like same thing, like just, justmaybe in the beginning you show
your hands working on a video orhow you clean your brushes or,
you know, really simple things.
And then when you're ready, likejust kind of work up to it.
It's like, you know, it's likewhen people learn to swim and
(19:30):
Jen Perlmutter just likebasically threw you in the
water.
Just swim or you can takelessons and, you know, you start
in the shallow area and then yougo deeper and, you know, cause
the theme of theuncomfortableness is, is it's
real.
It's so real.
I mean, I don't put myself outthere on Instagram.
Like, you know, I I'm, I'mwanting to talk, I'm learning
(19:53):
all this from you as well.
You know, we can, we can learnthis together.
It's hard as women, as olderwomen once you're like sort of
God, I hate to say this, but youknow, past your prime
culturally, you know, not can'tbear babies anymore, I guess is,
is the is the thing then itbecomes like a whole other
world, right?
Dee Tivenan (20:13):
Yeah.
But part of, yes, I I I've toldyou this before.
I'm just learning how to beolder.
I've never,
Jen Tough (20:21):
now it's weird, isn't it?
Dee Tivenan (20:23):
Yeah.
And I'm a lot older than you,but.
You know, there's support there.
A lot of people my age, but theplus side honestly, is it is
easier to let go of things like,okay.
So I post my picture.
Okay.
Really big deal.
Right.
I said to myself, the big thingsare life and death.
(20:45):
Everything else is aninconvenience, you know?
So what do I have to losereally?
And that's not a bad statementfor when we're younger.
Like, oh my God, this was ahorrible picture or whatever.
Well, it's gonna pass those.
Aren't the things that arereally important in our lives.
And so again, reframing ourexpectations and you know, that
(21:11):
this might not be great, youknow, but I'm learning.
So lowering our expectations andreframing what's important.
I want to, I'm saying this forall of us.
Good about myself.
I don't have to feel great.
Life has ups and downs.
Jen Tough (21:29):
I feel decent right.
Dee Tivenan (21:32):
And be able to retrieve that.
I mean, when I look at thephotos I took for that magazine,
and this is my insecurity, I hadMillie in my hands the whole
darn time now she's oh, no, he'smy dog pound dog.
That I'm a little nutty over.
But she was a security blanket,you know?
(21:53):
And in some ways in thinking ofthat is so pathetic, but on the
other hand really well, I mean,I couldn't have a picture
without a dog in my hand,probably not, but, but on the
other hand, and this was part ofcompassionate, rational thinking
versus irrational.
I could say it like immatureenough just to have a photo
shoot without your dog.
(22:15):
And then my rational.
So I said, well, apparently notlet it go.
So what, you know, if that mademe feel more comfortable, just
like do it in the clothes.
You want the settings, whatever.
And in the big picture, itdoesn't matter.
And I do think what you'retalking about those connections.
(22:38):
Why do people want to see yourhouse or your studio?
Because it feels a big pictureand I understand you more and we
feel closer.
And especially right now in thelast year, it's, everybody's a
bit lonely.
Jen Tough (22:56):
Yeah, totally.
And I, I love personally, I wasloving the news during COVID
like when we were on lockdown,when you'd see like the
journalists or the reportershouse, you know, and I loved
that.
I love seeing how peopledecorated their house and what
was, you know, in some of themwere kind of like, there was one
guy on PBS news hour.
(23:17):
I can't remember his name, buthe always had like all this
booze sitting on his counter
Dee Tivenan (23:23):
on our channel seven, I really want to talk to
him about his paintings.
They were so dull in thebackground, but oh God, I know
it was more intimate.
Jen Tough (23:33):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I loved it.
I was like, so bummed when theystarted going back to the
studio, I was like, oh, Godreally gave me the zoom with the
shitty picture.
And at least I get to see, youknow, connect with other people.
You know what they really are.
You don't feel so lonely, youknow, or isolated, I guess is a
better word.
Dee Tivenan (23:52):
And I think it's good.
The momentum cause all of us,you know, a lot of us as artists
are trying to push the envelopea little bit in marketing, which
we're really not trained for.
Right.
So there's a big learning curve,but you know, we throw it out to
our friends, like, I'll say toKatie, or, you know, Marjory or
Valerie or whatever, like whatdo you think?
(24:14):
And they'll say, well, I likethis picture versus that
picture, use that one.
And I'll tell you extra, sendout some of these pictures for
the magazine.
Everybody liked a different oneby the way.
So that just says you can'tplease everyone.
Right.
Do what you're comfortable with.
And again, it's a small piece inthe, you know, in the
(24:38):
longitudinal piece of all of ourlives and no one looks at.
Anything have we look at it,
Jen Tough (24:43):
right.
And people are spending like 0.2seconds or something on, you
know, on anything.
They're just doing a rapidscroll.
They're not like picking aparthow your hair like looked in
this pit, you know, only we'redoing that.
No, one's paying attention tous.
Really.
Dee Tivenan (24:58):
That's really important.
Half of us don't even have ourreading glasses on when we're
looking.
So we're looking at porpuses orsomething.
I don't know.
Yeah.
You're in the, you
Jen Tough (25:07):
know, you're in the passenger seat or whatever,
hopefully not driving, but youknow, you're not, you're always
doing something else.
You're always multitasking.
Usually when you're scrollingthrough instant.
Yeah, which is something tothink about.
Yeah.
You know, cause I get, I get alot of comments from artists who
say, well, I don't want toinundate people with pictures
or, and it's like, you're not,there's, you know, there's
billions of images that aregoing through it.
(25:29):
You know, people are absorbingso much stuff now.
They don't absorb it.
Is that the whole thing?
Dee Tivenan (25:37):
There's so much information we're taking less.
Jen Tough (25:39):
So you're never going to eat.
There's no way you could competein a sense or overwhelm someone
with tons of stuff.
They're not, they're not payingthat much attention.
Dee Tivenan (25:48):
Yeah.
Anything that's listening tothis podcast write in and tell
us where you might be stuck withthis or where you're having a
hard job or
Jen Tough (25:58):
better yet go to Kindling, which is free.
If you go to Kindling likekindling when making a fire, dot
community, and you can post inthere talking about this
podcast, if you want.
And it's totally free.
You can go on there and talkwith other artists about how it,
you know, any uncomfort youmight have with promoting your
art or yourself, especially onInstagram.
(26:19):
So let's, let's talk about onething.
One of the main reasons peopleare afraid and myself too is you
know, putting pictures ofyourself or videos of yourself.
Is it, you know, you're afraidof the hate that might come,
you're afraid of those nastycomments, you know, that's,
that's, I think especially whenyou're putting yourself out into
the wide world, as opposed tojust your network of friends,
(26:41):
like, you know, your friends,when you showed them the photos
and they all had different ones,they like, but you know, if
you're putting stuff onInstagram, it's, it's the whole
entire world, and there arepeople out there who will say
awful things.
Dee Tivenan (26:52):
What kind of things have you heard that people have
said?
Jen Tough (26:55):
Well, people will be, you know, they'll critique your
appearance.
They'll, you know, tell you it'sa dumb idea or this is stupid or
whatever, you know what I mean?
Like they'll build, they canreally pick it apart, which I
found actually, you know, as, asan advertiser, like for the
gallery or for workshops thatyou might have coming up or
something like.
I mean, it's any kind of,there's a sales angle to it.
(27:18):
People are hypersensitive to it,which I understand.
But they, they sort of takeLiberty in critiquing or
criticizing you know, whatyou're doing and blah, blah,
blah.
And you've kind of openedyourself up for more of a world
of
Dee Tivenan (27:31):
I mean, are there some examples you can think
because you're a big fish, I'ma, like a minnow.
Jen Tough (27:36):
I wouldn't say that
Dee Tivenan (27:38):
that's not a bad thing.
You know, you're reallymarketing.
Let me,
Jen Tough (27:42):
let me, let me, I can't think of any specific
examples, maybe that, becauseactually, you know, I, I, those
things are, they're hurtful.
They're really hurtful.
And I think, no, no, no.
It's, it's like Well, I rememberwhen I was advertising for a
show and there was a call forentry fee.
I had one artist.
I'm assuming they're an artistright in, there was on Facebook
(28:03):
right in that, you know, artistsshouldn't have to pay for
anything you're fucking rippingartists off.
You know, you get a lot, you,you get that.
I think, but I think part ofthat was because it was a, you
know, it was an ad, it was apromoted, you know, call for
entries.
And people feel, they, I thinkthey feel like they have more
license to criticize and bemean, you know, I mean, it's
(28:25):
really unnecessary to do that.
Dee Tivenan (28:28):
I think there are a couple of things with that.
One is this my
Jen Tough (28:31):
therapy session on my pocket?
Dee Tivenan (28:35):
Yes.
Lie down.
I'm not speaking specifically.
Do you, I, but because you'renot the only one that's
experienced this, so I'm notsure, you know, but I think, I
mean, none of us have gonethrough life without being
(28:55):
criticized, you know?
And when I'm criticized, itnever feels good.
You know, I asked myself whatfits, what doesn't fit.
And that term is calledintrojection, you know, like if
someone says to me Dee or this,this, and this, like you're
silly stupid.
(29:15):
And short or something.
I don't know.
I can't think of anything.
Yeah.
I might say, well, I'm probablynot short cause I'm five eight,
but I don't think I'm stupid,but I certainly am silly.
You, you have, anybody can sayanything to anyone and you have
to decide what fits foryourself.
It's like going to a buffet andeating everything, whether you
like it or not, you go to abuffet and decide what you want
to eat.
Otherwise it doesn't feel good.
(29:37):
The other part is there are,will always be a percentage of
the population that are angryand feel badly about themselves
and deal with that by hurtingothers.
Always, I, I wasn't aware howbig it was till the last five,
six years I'm even shocked, butthere always as that population.
(30:01):
And so we need to.
Develop a little armor aroundthat.
And especially when it comes onFacebook and Instagram for God's
sakes, it's not personal, youknow, people aren't saying it to
your face, people that are mador angry can say it to you
without any consequences,because you have no idea who
(30:21):
they are.
It lacks authenticity anyway.
Cause he can't even dialoguewith them really and explained.
So when that, when that happens,we have to put it in a separate
category because most of thethings that we say really aren't
that controversial.
(30:43):
And if there's a fee forsomething, well then someone's
mad at you about well whereisn't there a fee.
You know, if I go to Macy's, amI mad because I have to buy
something, you know, businessesare businesses.
So.
I just try to delete that stuff.
Does this fit, do they have agood point?
If they're angry, I really don'twant anything to do with them,
(31:04):
but it's not a relationship forme.
So just deleted.
And again, I'm not people froman anonymous place.
Feel like they are morepowerful, but it's kind of sad
because these are people thatprobably don't have connections
are angry, lost, or whatever.
So just put it in thatconnection, but we do need to
(31:28):
have some armor and someresilience.
Cause when we put ourselves outthere, it will happen.
So again, just, you know, isthis something I can learn from?
Or I'm just going to let it gobecause it doesn't have to do
with me and you know, our brain,we get stirred up or anxiety,
(31:51):
whatever.
So then I'm not saying that ifthat happens to me, I don't have
any feelings about.
So then how do I de-stressmyself?
One is a self-talk one is justtaking a walk.
I can't I'm so surprised I getlike the hugest serotonin boost,
(32:11):
you know, just get outside, getoutside, see a tree, run it by
someone else, you know?
Yeah.
And, you know, use avisualization.
Sometimes I visualize like whatsomeone said to me that hurts or
bothering me, like, I've got todrop it off a cliff, so I can't
(32:34):
connect with it.
You know, whatever visualizationworks for you in terms of
letting go more, I'm going tobury it.
Or, or if I mad, I'm going tojust like stomp on it, you know,
and actually visualization toois helpful in putting ourselves
out.
And a picture like I'm visuallyvisualizing myself having a
(32:56):
successful picture.
I'm visualizing myself lookingconfident.
So it works both ways, but youknow, that kind of stuff who
needs it and none of us deserveit.
It doesn't matter, you know,whatever we do, we don't deserve
to be treated poorly.
(33:18):
Right.
You know, someone could say,Jen, I'm kind of concerned about
your price.
Can you tell me the reasoning?
Jen Tough (33:24):
Oh yeah.
Let's totally different.
Dee Tivenan (33:26):
None of us deserve to be treated poorly.
So, yeah.
Jen Tough (33:29):
Do you remember Bernay Brown's cause we both
love Bernay brown.
She was talking about when shefirst, the first time she was
sort of exposed, you know, tothe world, was that Ted talk?
She did.
And.
They they told her at first, ohno, one's going to see it.
You know, it was her first talkon vulnerability.
(33:50):
And then do you remember herretelling what happened as soon
as she realized that likehundreds of thousands of people
had watched this on YouTube andshe said, then the comments
started coming.
There was just awful, you know,like lose 20 pounds, blah, blah,
blah.
You know, just these whore, youknow, really awful, you know,
Dee Tivenan (34:11):
very critical.
Jen Tough (34:12):
Yeah.
And, and then, but then she, youknow, she's also talked about,
you know, when there's peoplewho are in the ring, you know,
in the, in the, you know, in thefighting ring or what, what,
what was the term she used whenyou're like in the Coliseum or
whatever.
That's what I was envisioningmaybe when she's talking about
being brave.
And then there's the people whoare like in the stands or
(34:33):
whatever, just sort of throwingthings at you, but living
bravely is about Yeah.
Yeah.
And there's, there's somethingto that.
Like the bravery andvulnerability.
It's it's,
Dee Tivenan (34:46):
I mean, we're all vulnerable.
That's what we have the wayintimacy is connecting to your
vulnerability.
Like if, you know, like you justtold me how you were harassed a
little bit and felt badly.
I was, I was vulnerable when Isaid, you know, I was insecure
about the pictures and heldMillie the whole time, you know,
(35:07):
so, but that lets us be closerand we're when we're closer, we
support each other.
It's, you know, it's arelationship now, the people in
the stands you know, those,those are people that, you know,
kind of make a profession out ofbeing critical, you know, like
(35:28):
she has those 20 pounds.
What does that have to do withtheir head talk?
Right.
Got her head talk.
Her Ted talk.
Oh, that's unique.
Jen Tough (35:35):
That's 20 pounds.
Dee Tivenan (35:38):
That has something to do with in there.
These people that just want tobe critical.
And there's some, one of us thatis isn't triggered by that.
Yeah.
But it's what we do with it andcompartmentalize it.
Remember those are peoplethough.
They don't even know us.
You know, she just had aninteresting thing with the
(35:59):
Spotify stuff and she went offand, and got back on it.
And if you guys want to listento her new things, she got a lot
of criticism either way, but howshe made her decision.
And, but the point is, you know,you can't put yourself out there
without having some risks, butwhat's the alternative.
The alternative is I'm going to,you know, live all by myself
(36:23):
with my dog and Netflix, youknow,
Jen Tough (36:26):
which sometimes sounds nice.
Dee Tivenan (36:28):
Yes.
But not 24, 7 for 70 years.
Yeah.
Putting ourselves out there andtaking risks also builds
confidence, build confidencejust in our head.
We can visualize it.
We can think it, we can plan it,but it has to be the experience.
Like, how do I want to getbetter at running?
(36:50):
It's just not thinking I have topractice.
So for everyone that'slistening.
If you've put yourself outthere, feel good about yourself.
Jen Tough (37:01):
Heck yeah,
Dee Tivenan (37:02):
it's a risk.
And the first time I was in apainting show oh my God.
You know, and all these babysteps of risks, but it's good.
It makes us feel alive.
It makes us feel proud.
And it's a stepping stone todoing more.
So I'm encouraging, you know,you, everyone take those risks.
(37:24):
You know, the selfie thing, thisis been socio-cultural for
centuries.
Judging women.
Yeah.
Everything, bodies, hair,whatever.
This is centuries old.
(37:44):
We, we, I mean, I, I'm not goingto change the world.
I know that, but remember,there's no basis to it except
judgment.
Jen Tough (37:56):
So, and we live in a very patriarchal society.
Dee Tivenan (38:01):
So, you know, we talk about expectations, but
think about judgment.
There's always ex extrinsicjudgment, external judgment, but
another tool is be aware of howmuch you're judging yourself and
do something different withthat.
You know, every time we go, Ooh,that's a horrible picture.
(38:23):
We're judging ourselves versusit's.
Okay.
Yeah, it's okay.
And I'm proud that I took therisk turn into something
positive, but we are usuallyharder on ourselves than anyone
else's but the good news is wecan change that by how we think,
how we think affects how wefeel.
(38:45):
If I think, you know, I'm beingcrummy at something, I'm going
to feel crummy.
If I think I'm doing okay withsomething I'm going to be okay.
Yeah.
So that's, self-talk, that'swinding in our head all the
time.
Meditation of breathing can helpthat we can learn some tools to
(39:07):
help that, but we want tovisualize that stop sign when it
goes down that negative road.
And like, even with whateverpeople say to you, Jen, you
know, because you do putyourself out there, you know,
it's not true.
It hurts.
And then.
(39:28):
Again, then you recover and, youknow, we can't be authentic
without a vulnerability.
Jen Tough (39:35):
Yeah, it's true.
And I wonder, I wonder too.
I think some people, you know,have had a history of bullying
or, you know, when they weregrowing up and they might have
more work to do around, youknow, being vulnerable you know,
and putting yourself out thereand the selfies or whatever.
You know, cause that, that canbe some people carry a bigger
(39:56):
load.
Dee Tivenan (39:58):
Yeah.
There's a lot of us that hadnormal growing up periods,
whatever that is.
I have that in quotes but youknow, everybody has their issues
including me.
But when we're talking abouttrauma, that's a different
thing.
You might want to get somesupport with it.
If you, if you really feel likeit's causing too much anxiety
(40:21):
for yourself, You don't have toput, you don't have to do a
picture.
Another thing is if you want towork through it to a therapist
yeah.
Get some support with it
Jen Tough (40:34):
and start with, you know, start with baby steps.
I mean, I can't tell artiststhat they shouldn't market
themselves.
I don't want to say that becauseI know that, you know, it's
really, I don't know.
I don't think you're sayingthat.
I just, you know, I don't, I D Idon't want to tell artists like,
oh, don't, you know, don't putyourself out there.
I want artists to put themselvesout there, but you can do it in
(40:55):
little baby steps.
Like, just show your hands or,you know, show your pet, or, you
know, start introducing thingsabout your personal world with,
that's not as sort of, not asvulnerable and sort of slowly
work up to it when you're ready,because
Dee Tivenan (41:11):
yes, I showed my nightgown with all the paint on
it.
Yeah.
I've discovered pictures fromfarther away.
I'm a little bit morecomfortable.
I didn't
Jen Tough (41:24):
a hundred feet.
See me by the tree over there.
Yeah.
Dee Tivenan (41:27):
Or a thousand, you know, but seriously there are
these baby steps of tools.
Jen Tough (41:37):
Yep.
Yeah.
I think the key is, you know, tojust let people in your world a
little bit, you don't have tobe, you know, like Kim
Kardashians, you know, showing,you know what I'm saying?
Like, you know, there's, it'snot one or the other, it's not
like, you know, not showingyourself at all or being like,
you know, one of thosepretentious people with a selfie
(41:57):
stick, it's, you know, it's justletting people in your, in your
world a little bit, but also onelittle step at a time, you know?
Dee Tivenan (42:07):
And so yes.
Start with baby steps.
What you're comfortable with,and this is you, and this is
your life and make it work thereisn't a right way for everyone.
There really isn't no rules.
Yeah.
And there might be a time thatwe're more comfortable putting
(42:29):
ourselves out there in a timethat we're not.
So just go with, you know,wherever you are.
And I, I think we don't want tohave one more thing to be
critical of ourselves about, andthat's, that's something to be
really aware of
Jen Tough (42:47):
being an artist, creating artwork and putting
your art out there asvulnerable.
Dee Tivenan (42:54):
The first time I did it, you know,
Jen Tough (42:56):
it's, that's really, you know, I like, I am so amazed
and so impressed, especiallywith women who.
You know, might've been anartist early on or had an
interest in it, put it asidebecause they had to stay home
and raise the kids, or they weredoing another job to bring, you
know, to support the family orwhatever it is, had to put it
(43:16):
aside.
And then they come back to it.
That is so brave to me, that isamazing and brave.
And, you know, and then showingthat work and, you know, so just
know that like, if you're atthat place where you're kind of
coming back to being an artistor you're, you know, reemerging
as I call it and you're putting
Dee Tivenan (43:37):
starting at 59, like I did.
Jen Tough (43:39):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
And then putting, you know,you're, you're following your
passion finally, which, which inthat like right there alone is
so vulnerable to do that.
You're putting yourself in arole vulnerable blah position,
but, but then it's so brave to,I mean, I'm amazed at I'm S I
love, I love when I see womendoing that, I love that coming
(44:02):
back to their passion.
Dee Tivenan (44:05):
And this isn't your therapy, obviously, but even you
taking risks starting this wholeAA thing and the kindling
Jen Tough (44:11):
We can have my therapy.
Maybe we just have my therapy asa new podcast.
No one would care.
It would be like the lowest
Dee Tivenan (44:18):
they would.
They think we were likegoofballs, which we actually
are.
You know, if it comes back to,you know, we're talking about
all these things, we're talkingabout vulnerability, we're
talking about taking risks.
We're talking about pushingourselves.
We're talking about trying toget from A to B with all the
resistance is resistance is aword with all the resistance.
Jen Tough (44:40):
So it's a massive hill to climb.
Dee Tivenan (44:42):
Yeah.
Thank you very much.
Whether it's art, family money,whatever.
So how do we deal with that?
Whether it's an art or life orwhatever.
Yeah, we're talking about art,but, but it's, it's our lives.
So do I want to feel betterabout ourselves?
(45:05):
We have to be aware of that andwe have to you know, support us.
We're we're good aboutsupporting our kids or say
that's a nice picture.
Jen Tough (45:15):
That'd be a whole other podcast.
How women ignore their ownneeds.
Dee Tivenan (45:20):
It's like the oxygen mask on the plane.
Yeah, no.
And so we have to look at whatwe've accomplished.
Have to look at how resilientwe've been, which is true.
We want to look at B howcourageous we are every time.
(45:41):
You put yourself out there ortake a risk or try something
new, like try to draw in class.
And you always say you can'tdraw, which is not you, but it's
irrational.
That's what we say, oh, I can'tdo that.
Or people that say I'm notcreative, which isn't true.
Every time we take that risk, beproud of ourselves.
What kind of people do we wantto be?
(46:03):
We want to be kind.
We want to be good.
We want to be considered we'reimperfect, but we want to grow.
So look at this as growth.
And if you're having troubledoing whatever, anything, look
at that and break it down intolittle baby steps and maybe get
some help and say, you know, ifthis is important to me, I want
(46:27):
to do this in a small, safe waybecause you know, I mean, I
don't, I I'm not, I don't wantto get into anything religious
obviously, but all I know isright now, you know, and this
is, this is the time right now,you know, and what you bring up
(46:50):
is the women and socio-culturalthings too.
And we're making a statement foreveryone, but also our daughters
Jen Tough (47:00):
know, wow, this is a big issue in our house right now
because my daughter is 16.
So you remember that
Dee Tivenan (47:08):
they don't miss a thing.
And if she sees you taking arisk, even though she, you know,
I mean, she might, or she might,I don't know, but I I'm
surprised how they don't miss athing.
I mean, that's why we tellparents, don't say it don't say
(47:29):
anything about your kids'weight.
Don't say anything about theireating, you know unless they
want come to you, let's stay outof all that stuff.
Let you know, don't make themfeel like they're being watched.
Jen Tough (47:40):
Yeah.
But as women, you know, as womenlike putting ourselves out
there, there's a whole othergigantic bag.
It isn't just like baggage.
It's a, it's a fucking, youknow, carload full of crap that,
you know, that we, because forour whole entire lives, I mean,
I think especially women over40, you know, there was a
particular way that you weresupposed to look, there was a
(48:00):
particular way that you weresupposed to act.
There was, you know, a lot oftongue biting, you know, like
don't say that don't act thisway.
You know, a lot of ignoring andmeetings at work.
You know, it, it, you know, sothere's a whole other sort of
level to this of not sure how tosort of navigate this, this new
social media world and, youknow, because we were judged for
(48:24):
most of our lives on these verysuperficial.
Dee Tivenan (48:27):
And I think that's.
Yeah,
Jen Tough (48:30):
I think, I do think it was worse though, you know,
for people who are women who areover 40, I think, I think it's a
little better now.
Like, especially after me too.
And you know what I mean?
It's, it, it feels maybe I'mtotally wrong, but it feels a
little better than it was.
You know, it's even talked aboutmore, like, I remember when the
whole me too thing started like,oh my God, people are talking
(48:53):
about this?
You know, like I remembermeeting I went to visit some of
my girlfriends from high schooland North Carolina Marie and
Toby, my dearest darlingfriends.
I love them so much.
And you know, we were talkingabout the whole me too thing and
the Kavanaugh hearings and allthat.
And one of my friends said well,it was just another Saturday
(49:13):
night.
Like you're just, you know, likegetting groped or whatever, you
know what I mean?
Like you
Dee Tivenan (49:17):
just have a Lear about it.
Cause it happened so much.
Jen Tough (49:20):
It just was like, you know and you know, her comment
kind of took me back a littlebit, but she's right.
You know, it's like, we didn'ttalk about that stuff.
It's just was what was expected.
So I think when women of ourgeneration, your generation, you
know, et cetera, are dealingwith these, you know, exposing
themselves, which is the way itkind of feels it's, it's, you
(49:42):
know, putting yourself out therelike that, you, you, you sort of
carry that past, you knowinformation experiences, you
know, or color, all of that,even more, you know, like how
you should behave, what youshould do, what you should say,
what you can say that kind ofthing, how I'm going to be
judged for what I'm wearing.
(50:02):
You know, like I remember when Iwas the art director at Warner
brothers records and it was abig job and fancy job and you
know, but like the, the maledesigners or whatever who worked
there, they didn't have to worryso much about their clothes.
Right.
Like, there was always like and,you know, since I was blonde and
blue eyed and younger for havingthat position, there was always
(50:23):
that sort of, there was justlike,
Dee Tivenan (50:26):
yeah, I really feel from my mother's generation.
Oh my God.
And my grandmother's, I mean,yes, holy shit.
I, you know, obviously I can'tspeak for everyone, but my mom
was the perfect housewife andhad dinner on the table and
horderves from my father andvolunteered.
(50:49):
He didn't want her to work, youknow, just really in this box.
And you know, it's funny since,and this can go both ways since
mostly I've been in privatepractice and I never felt that
too much.
It may have been judged orwhatever.
(51:09):
That's great.
Being a female.
I mean, I was judged on otherthings, but but on the other
hand, when you do things outsideof the box, you can be judged
too.
You know what I mean?
But I I'm pretty lucky or else Icompletely repressed it, but I
(51:32):
think that's, in some ways why Iwent into private practice
because I really felt for mymother and, and they got
divorced when she was 56 and shehad to go back to work and, you
know, she was a Wellesleygraduate who, you know, had
horderves for my father, youknow, I mean, but that was the
culture.
(51:53):
So I think I always picksomething that I could kind of
control and yeah, but I knowit's there and you see it
everywhere.
So that's the other thing too.
You know, it is vulnerable totake a stand to it.
And the more you do that, you,you pick where you're going to
(52:13):
take a stand.
Like, you know what I, you know,I mean, I don't know your
background that well, but liketake you to stand at Warner
brothers.
Might've been too vulnerable foryou, but taking a stand with an
artist that wasn't being kind toyou.
Yeah.
Jen Tough (52:31):
Well, you know, it's funny because I think with age
comes obviously more wisdom andyou know, if I was to have that
job now, there's no effing wayI'd put up with the bullshit.
Right.
Like it would be, you know, butwhen you're, you know, I think I
was only like 30, so reallyyoung.
Dee Tivenan (52:46):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, I'm sorry, but
Jen Tough (52:51):
I remember when my mom, I have one little story
about my mother who was a real,she's a real feminist, she's
still alive, but you know, shewas involved with legal women
voters and she, you know, wasreally, you know, involved with
all these things.
And I remember one time I wasprobably about five and we went
into the local hardware store.
We walked in there and my momwas, I don't know, let's say it
(53:11):
was a hammer.
I have no idea what she wasasking for, but she couldn't
find it.
So she went to the counter.
And of course it was all men andthey laughed at her.
They laughed at her.
And I remember this momentbeing, so, you know, I remember
it clearly, you know, Laughingat her because, you know, what
would you tell your husband tocome in here and get it?
They told her and she flippedout
Dee Tivenan (53:35):
Good for her.
Jen Tough (53:36):
She flipped out.
I mean, of course as a littlegirl, I was like, what's
happening.
You know, it wasn't really surewhat was going on, but that's
how bad it was.
So this was probably like, Idon't know, 19 73, 72, something
like that.
Wow.
So imagine was like in thefifties, or
Dee Tivenan (53:53):
as you could see the, the very descript roles for
people, it's my parents,grandparents.
And when we talk about trauma,the effect of the war on these
generations, we had the Vietnamwar, but we have the COVID war.
And so, you know, that is havingan effect on.
(54:17):
Whether we want it to, oh yeah,that's enough.
The orange nightmare.
Get this stuff we're talkingabout where we're, you know,
we're heading this podcast interms of helping people feel
better about themselves with thethings that are uncomfortable
with particularly selfies orputting your paintings out there
(54:43):
or, and how to do it and come toterms with it and feel okay
about it.
But the bigger picture, allthese tools are life tools,
whether it's a selfie or you'restanding up to your boss, I, you
know, you're applying for a jobor, or.
(55:05):
Trying to bobsled for the firsttime I watched a little of the
Olympics, but it's all the same,very little cold there for me,
but it's all the same stuff.
You're just holding this withselfies.
It's all the same stuff in termsof, you know, what am I want to
(55:26):
do right now with my life inthis moment?
And what's my plan and yes, willI be uncomfortable?
Sure.
While I lived through that.
Sure.
How can I break it down and babysteps.
So I don't take too much atonce.
And how can I acknowledge myselfand appreciate myself over and
(55:51):
over again?
Again, it's like a muscle, allthis stuff over and over again.
And when I get too stressed,what are my tools?
I'm going to listen to ameditation tape.
I might put on music and dance.
I might take a walk.
I might call a friend in vent Imight, for me, I'm a, like
(56:11):
really big on naps you know?
So, so we're, we're embracingthat, you know, like I said, a
piece of cake, but everybodythat's listening probably likes
challenges.
That's why they're listingeverybody.
That's an artist or anythingelse.
We're, we're, we're driven totake on new challenges.
(56:35):
So expect we're going to bevulnerable, expect that it's not
gonna work out well.
Every time expect that we lovethe results.
Jen Tough (56:48):
You will.
And you know, the other thingthat I want to add to your list
of things that you can do tomake it a little easier, a
little better is you know, findyour community of artists.
Cause I know in the ArtistsAlliance, we're so supportive of
each other that has turned outto be such an amazingly
supportive, yummy community.
(57:10):
And you know, everyone is, youknow, when someone is
vulnerable, you've got like, youknow, 15, 30, 40, 50, even more
comments of people, they aresupporting each other because
everyone's kind of going throughthe same thing everyone's trying
to, you know, make their career,you know, better advance their
career, you know, or getfeedback on a painting or, you
(57:34):
know, we talk about everythingand it's just, it's turned into
such a supportive place.
Dee Tivenan (57:39):
It's been a life saver for so many people.
Jen Tough (57:42):
I think so too.
Dee Tivenan (57:43):
Yeah.
It, and it's authenticeverybody.
That's listening.
Jen and I have talked aboutartists lions from the
beginning.
And I write a column head talkin there where we talk about
some of the emotional issues orjust goofy things.
And the whole, the wholeAlliance is about support and
(58:06):
that's not easy to come by.
And I think Jen has set aprecedent, you know, really no
politics in here, no puttingeach other down.
And I feel like it's authentic.
Not only is there support, butalso people like I was having
trouble with my paper.
People gave me ideas that it,it's not just emotional support,
(58:28):
it's technical support,
Jen Tough (58:31):
it's all sorts of stuff.
Dee Tivenan (58:34):
And what's cool about it is that there are
people from all over thecountry.
And I know so many more people.
Than I ever met in my life thatI really like.
So yes, the tool of support isreally important.
I mean, for me, I actually sayevery week I'm quitting
painting, you know, I'm not,that's my go-to frustration.
Jen Tough (58:58):
Yeah.
I'm running away.
I'm quitting
Dee Tivenan (59:02):
my fleet response, you know, which is kind of my,
my thing.
You know, that that's myvulnerable thing.
But I know I'm not going to buythat gives me a little safety
for a little bit.
And then I go back to, well, youwant to hear a funny story?
It's kind of pathetic, but it'sfunny.
Jen Tough (59:18):
I love pathetic funny
Dee Tivenan (59:22):
because I was a kid.
Divorced.
And I'm not angry at my parentsand I never knew if someone was
leaving or whatever.
I was kind of scared to getmarried.
I knew I wanted to be withKevin.
That was no question.
And I broke out in hives on ourwedding day.
Okay.
So then whenever we have a tif Iput on I'm from Chicago, but now
(59:42):
we were in California, my downbig down coat that went down to
my ankles,
Jen Tough (59:48):
like a sleeping bag.
Dee Tivenan (59:49):
I'm leaving.
Of course it's like 90 degrees.
So we worked out you gottaimagine this.
It was blue.
It was really one of those bigones.
So we worked out that.
I mean, obviously I couldn'tleave, obviously I didn't want
to leave, but I could put on mydown coat, say I'm leaving and
go to the door and that out thedoor in the, in the first year
(01:00:11):
of marriage, you can imagine,you know,
Jen Tough (01:00:13):
so this is something that you guys set up.
Dee Tivenan (01:00:16):
Okay.
Yeah.
I mean, it got to give Kevinsome credit, cause he's
probably.
God, why did I marry her?
Oh, that's the worst.
But that, that was always mything.
This kind of to flee before ithurt or something.
So we we'd have a little Tiffand go and buy.
Now.
It was kind of funny.
(01:00:37):
I'm leaving, put on this downcoat down to my ankles, 90
degrees and go to the door andthen, but I can't go out the
door.
So you standing at the door andpretty soon you're thinking this
is kind of silly, but we, so mypoint, which I kind of lost
(01:00:57):
anyway.
But my point is we have to haveour ways of working things out
where we really aren't hurtingourselves or her hurting anyone
else.
And I'm big on humor.
I'm big on laughing at myselfand laughing at whatever.
I can, cause I think we are allpretty darn goofy and that's
(01:01:18):
another thing to embrace like,oh man, I just spent 10 hours
obsessing about this, you know,selfie or whatever, what a waste
of my time for God's sakes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That is the goofiest thing, youknow?
So yeah, so you need yourpeople, you need the support,
(01:01:39):
you need your own tools knowingyou, you know,
Jen Tough (01:01:44):
all that stuff.
Dee Tivenan (01:01:45):
I mean, when you get hurt or attacked or
something with AA, what do yousay first?
I mean, cause you're resilient,
Jen Tough (01:01:54):
Artist Alliance with AA with we call Artists Alliance
AA for short, but it's notreally,
Dee Tivenan (01:02:02):
we're not drinking
Jen Tough (01:02:05):
what you mean when someone like,
Dee Tivenan (01:02:06):
Get upset that.
Jen Tough (01:02:10):
What do I do personally?
I try to put it in perspective.
I try to understand that theperson who is, you know, coming
at me, if they come at me in anasty way that they're, you
know, they're probably, they'reprobably hurting.
Right.
They're probably, you know, andyou've said lots of times that
I'm kind of like mom in thatgroup.
(01:02:30):
Right.
So kids just like, I don't havefeelings.
I think a lot of people thinkthat, you know, like, oh, you
know, so they just feel likethey can just kind of throw
stuff at me.
And I don't know it is what itis.
It's it's.
Dee Tivenan (01:02:47):
So you try to understand that and that's
mature and understand it's notall about you.
Yeah.
And that's another tool I knowI'm throwing out tools
intermittently more about,
Jen Tough (01:03:01):
it's more about the other person.
If the, depending on how they goat you, right?
Like if they're hurting people,hurt people, right?
Like there's something, somereason why they want to, you
know,
Dee Tivenan (01:03:12):
and so they're vulnerable and they're turning
into anger and it's not aboutme.
I don't like it.
It's uncomfortable.
Yeah.
But it's not about me.
If it is about me, then I havesomething to learn.
But you know, it's not about me,but we're again, bringing this
(01:03:33):
back to life.
These are all the tools we usein life.
You know, who hasn't been hurt,rejected,
Jen Tough (01:03:41):
and you survive.
Dee Tivenan (01:03:44):
We're surviving even though.
I got the time wrong three timesfor this part, but I love what
Jen said.
She kept saying, no worries.
No worries.
I'm on, I'm on California time.
She's in New Mexico time.
Jen Tough (01:04:01):
Yeah.
It's no big deal,
Dee Tivenan (01:04:02):
but, but I like, and this is something you guys
can integrate to.
Jen says no worries.
And I think that's another lineto integrate also.
Yeah.
But again, if people have stuffwith their stuff with it or
feedback about this podcast, letus know.
(01:04:25):
we like to chat.,
Jen Tough (01:04:28):
which makes me think that we should wrap this up.
Okay.
But it was great because, youknow, we started talking about
Trump and how messed up thingsare.
And we talk, we talked about somany things and I hope people
got something out of this.
I'm sure they did.
And I really thank you forcoming on and chatting with me.
Oh.
Because we could go on forever.
Dee Tivenan (01:04:47):
I know.
And we have, you should see someof our phone calls, but thank
you for having me.
I really appreciate it.
And, and I love learning fromyou too.
Jen Tough (01:04:57):
Well, I love my virtual therapy sessions.
Dee Tivenan (01:05:01):
No charge.
The thank you so much.
Thanks, Jen
Jen Tough (01:05:08):
Thank you so much for listening and supporting this
podcast.
Your support means everything.
If you'd like to learn moreabout the Artists Alliance
community.
Send me a question or learnabout other events or projects
coming up, please visit mywebsite at www.Jentough.gallery.
See you next time.
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