March 18, 2025 • 55 mins
A seemingly innocent church invitation from a workplace crush led Christopher into the unsettling world of cult recruitment—complete with love bombing, isolation tactics, and a baptism offer on day two. This jarring personal story opens our deep exploration into the psychology of cults and why they're far more prevalent in society than most realize.
Cults aren't just remote compounds with strange religious practices. They're organizations built around absolute authoritarian leadership, financial exploitation, and systematic isolation that can manifest in religious groups, political factions, and even wellness communities. What makes cults truly dangerous is how they exploit our fundamental human needs for belonging, validation, and purpose.
This week Christopher Patchet, LCSW and Linday McClain examine the warning signs that help identify cult-like behavior: leaders with questionable backgrounds demanding unquestioning loyalty, recruitment tactics pushing for quick commitment, and the systematic dismantling of outside relationships. Most troubling is the financial dependency created when groups demand significant portions of members' income while providing minimal transparency about how funds are used.
For those with loved ones already ensnared in cult dynamics, direct confrontation typically backfires. Maintaining a non-judgmental connection provides a crucial lifeline for when doubts eventually arise. Recovery from cult involvement is complex, often requiring former members to relearn emotional expression beyond the limited range permitted within the group.
The most powerful defense? Education. Understanding these dynamics can help protect you and those you care about from toxic group influence. Whether you're curious about cult psychology or concerned about controlling dynamics in your own community, this episode provides crucial insights into recognizing and avoiding these dangerous systems of control.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Hi and welcome to Toxic Cooking Show, where we
break down toxic people down totheir simplest ingredients.
I'm your host, christopherPatchett LCSW.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
And I'm Lindsay McLean.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
I want to start off before going into the topic, I
want to start off with givingyou a little story.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Ooh.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
I was a fresh social worker and I was working at a
private psychiatric hospital and, as I was waiting for this one
position to open up, I wasworking at a sister hospital the
unit that I was working at.
I ended up I met this reallycool girl and she was a med tech
(01:05):
.
Med techs are people thatthey're the first line of
defense.
They're usually the ones that apatient will go up to and say
like hey, like you know, like Ineed extra socks or I need like
an extra blanket or whatever, orif they have like a question to
ask the social worker, then themed tech will come back and
(01:27):
they'll get the social worker orthe nurse or whoever.
So usually they're going to bethe people that the patient has
the most interaction with.
And one time I see her, she'sin the back and she's like
reading a book and I was like oh, oh, you know, like what are
you reading?
I just I had a huge, huge crushon this girl.
(01:49):
Like I mean, yeah, and and solike I mean that's a good
question to ask, to like spark alittle conversation yeah, yeah,
you know.
So what are you reading?
So she's telling me she'sreading about this, a book from
her church.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
I was like oh, you know what religion are you.
And she's like she's part ofthe Church of God.
And I'm like, okay, okay, andso I started asking questions
and showing interest and thingslike that.
And she's telling me about herreligion.
I'm like, okay, okay, cool,cool.
So she comes at the end she'slike you know, hey, you know,
(02:33):
it'd be really nice if youjoined me.
I'd really love for you to comewith me and everything like
that.
So me being the person I am,I'm like oh, you know, damn nice
date I'll be able to'm like oh,you know, damn nice date I'll
be able to, like, you know, goto church with her and then
maybe we can go out for icecream or whatever hang out
(02:54):
together hang out together.
No problems here no red flags,so so I was like, okay, yeah,
sure, sure, sure, and.
And so I get to her churchlater on that night and I meet
her outside.
I'm like, oh, hey, how's itgoing?
Blah, blah, blah.
And so I give her a hug and shebrings me upstairs.
(03:16):
She brought me into this room,she sits down.
I sit down, like you know, kindof next to her and everything,
and so we're talking for acouple of seconds and then,
within maybe two minutes, someguy comes in.
I'm just like, oh, fuckingcockplucker.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Little did you know.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Little did I know.
So this guy comes in and he'stelling me the whole history of
their Bible.
I'm just like, okay.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
How did you keep a straight face?
That's what I want to know.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
You know?
So here's the thing.
Okay, so I would considermyself to be a Buddhist atheist,
and you know that.
But for everybody else, Iconsider myself to be a buddhist
atheist.
You know, and you know that.
But you know, for everybodyelse, I I consider myself to be
a buddhist atheist.
I I believe in in buddhism asfar as like a way, way of life,
but you know, as far as likeanything else, I I would say
(04:15):
that I'm more of an atheist typeperson.
I will have to say that they doa very good job of presenting
the, the bible, and like it's.
You know, it's one of thesethings where, if you don't think
about it, it makes absolutesense yeah, yeah but the moment
(04:39):
that you think about it for fiveseconds or more, then you're
like you, just see the hole yeah, you're like wait, wait, but
but you know he's gone into,like how the the bible did this
perfect prediction of everythingand how, like, how everything
is so like, exact with what itsays beforehand oh yeah, yeah,
the bible never contradictsitself so never.
(05:03):
So I, I'm sitting there, I'mlike, huh, okay, okay, okay.
And then, like you know, likethe back of my head, like I'm
kind of going through theinformation, I'm like okay,
whatever, yeah, but at least I'msitting next to this girl.
Yeah, get to look over, and shelooks over at me, and you know,
(05:24):
just to see if I'm gettingeverything, and I give her a
little smile.
So at least I get that much.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
That just tells me how downhill this thing is.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
At the end there the guy, he comes up to me.
He's like like actually, youknow what you know?
Uh, I really want you to comein tomorrow and and just you
know, like there's a couplethings I I want to kind of talk
to you about and everything likethat.
I'm like sure you know worstcase scenario at least I get to
like spend time with, uh, sowrong say goodbye and everything
(06:07):
like that and and uh, I wasjust like, okay, you know, I'll
be back tomorrow same time, comeback in next day same time.
See this person.
And I say, like you know, likehey, how's it going?
Blah, blah, uh.
She brings me up to the sameroom and I'm like cool, like you
know, like at least I'll getlike a couple seconds to like
talk to her and everything.
(06:28):
And so she's like, oh, you know, like uh, and so I sit down.
And then as soon as I sit down,she leaves.
I'm like mother fucker.
So guy comes in, nothing.
He's telling me more about likeyou know how, how everything is
perfect and and how all theseuh things are, are perfectly
(06:50):
aligned and you know this, thatand the other.
And I'm like whatever, likefuck.
So at the very, very end maybeabout an hour and a half, two
hour speech of of all this, yeah, yeah and maybe about an hour
and a half two hour speech ofall this.
Yeah, yeah, he's like.
So you know, with all thatbeing said, like what do you
(07:11):
think?
And I'm trying to be nice I'mlike okay, you know, like, yeah,
you know, I totally canunderstand how you believe this
and everything like that.
And you know he's like well,here let me show you something.
And he brings me into anotherroom and it's like a bathtub
type thing and he's like, youknow, like we do our like
(07:32):
baptism's there, and did he want?
Speaker 2 (07:35):
to baptize you right there.
Yes, oh no, stranger danger.
Stranger danger, by the way.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
Pat.
So he's showing me this and I'mjust like, okay, Nice.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Wait, but are you baptized, Like already?
Speaker 1 (07:52):
I believe so.
I'm sure my mom would have hadme baptized.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
I kind of assumed you were because you grew up
Catholic area.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
Yeah, brought up Roman Catholic.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Yeah, I got the little baby.
Yeah, yeah, up Roman Catholicso like I was a little baby.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Yeah, yeah, I think I got the, uh, the dunk.
So so he's, you know, he showedme the, the bathtub, and he's
like this is where we do ourbaptisms and things like that.
And then he's like would youlike to be baptized?
I was like, oh, oh, would youlike to be baptized?
(08:29):
I was like, oh, no, no, I don'tthink I'm ready yet.
And so he's like, okay, okay,you know, take your time.
And so he's like well, we'reabout to have dinner.
Like I would love for you to beable to join me, uh, join us
for dinner.
I'm like, cool, like you know,like, okay, dinner now, maybe I
get cool, like you know, like,okay, dinner Now, maybe I get to
sit across from you know, thisperson, this girl, and at least
(08:52):
get a couple minutesconversation with this girl.
And so I'm like, yeah, sure.
So we go downstairs and as soonas we go downstairs, I see men
on one side, women on the otherside.
I'm like, oh, fuck.
So I'm sitting there and theypray, they're thanking the Lord
(09:17):
for the food and all that.
And then we have somebody who'sjoining us and looking at maybe
joining the church, and I'mlike, better not say me, better
not say me, better not say me.
And Christopher Patchett, youknow, like, please stand down.
I'm standing up.
I'm like everybody's applauding, like welcome, welcome, welcome
(09:40):
, welcome.
I'm like, oh fuck, gotta getout of here.
So we have dinner, welcome,welcome.
I'm like, oh, fuck, gotta getout of here.
So we have dinner.
We're talking for a little bitand then, finally, when dinner
was over with, I, go upstairs, Igo to my car and the one guy
he's there, he's like yeah, youknow, this Saturday we're going
to have activities, blah, blah,blah, this, that and the other.
(10:03):
And you want to come?
Well, activities, blah, blah,blah, this, that and the other.
And you want to come?
Well, this Saturday I alreadyhave plans.
But you know, damn, you knowI'd love to, and you know, like,
Darn, I'm just so busy for therest of my life.
So so I was just like he's like,oh well, well, like, let me get
(10:25):
your number and, and you know,I'll give you a call and maybe
next week we'll, we'll gettogether and everything.
I was like sure nice to saythough.
So I gave him my number and andI was like okay, this girl is
not worth, like I don't care howcool, how nice, how hot, she is
(10:46):
not worth it.
So I I go home, uh, and I waslike you know what?
There were some things about it.
It just really hit me as ascult, like yeah so you know the
the I.
I looked online and I was justcurious of like okay, is it me
(11:09):
or is it just like?
You know like that, or am Ilike really seeing, like you
know like something here?
And so I looked online.
I saw YouTube videos of it andpeople were saying that, yes,
you know like, as soon as Ijoined you, you know they wanted
me to break away from my family.
They wanted to.
You know like, I had to donatelike 33 of my uh pay what so I
(11:36):
mean, it was just like and youknow story after story of like
people saying like, yeah, yes,this is a cult, stay the fuck
away.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
I was like anything that makes you break off contact
with friends or family.
Anything that tells you that'slike, if they try and dissuade
you, they don't love you.
Instant, like 10,000 red flags,run away, run away so fast you
are getting way ahead of me.
I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'll shut up, way ahead of me.
(12:04):
I'm sorry.
I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'll shutup.
Damn you, lindsay.
Aw, I knew I was gonna get theguard voice.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Join my cult.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
The cult of Molly.
That would be Molly's cultfirst off.
You better put our Queen EP ontop.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
You know what?
I'm already a member, so youare Motherfucker.
Give me 33% more treats.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
So I can puke them all up over your bed, god.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
Good times, good times, was it?
So today's episode talkingabout cults, and a lot of times
when we think about cults wethink automatically to like
religious cults, and there Imean there are.
(13:07):
The idea of a cult is it's moreof a mental thing, so like
Christianity, judaism, thingslike that, not a cult, you know
it's a religion.
Right, there are sectors of eachof these.
There are sectors of each ofthese, but as a whole, like,
(13:27):
okay, you're going in, you havethese beliefs, you gather up and
everything like that it's aunity type thing.
Cool, go for it.
However, you know, like thewhole mentality that kind of
(13:50):
goes into a cult and everythinglike that, and these were some
things that you were just sayingabout and things that I'm going
to go into.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
Sorry.
I just got too excited.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
So I was looking up about, like, what exactly
constitutes as a cult.
So one of the things isabsolute, authoritarian, without
accountability.
So everything that is beingsaid, everything that is being
done, absolutely necessary, it'sfor the betterment of our group
(14:23):
.
It's for the betterment of ourgroup.
It's for the betterment ofwhatever.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
And I assume too that would apply to the leader of
the cult being able to say dothis, don't do that, and you
would have to follow.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's a very absolute, like I'm
right.
There's no question about it.
So it's a lot of times theleader is going to be asking for
people to have absolute loyalty, obedience.
You're going to do what I say,you're never going to question
(15:01):
what I say, and that's going tobe kind of the mentality of the
leader there.
So it's absolute, authoritarian, without accountability.
Anything that does go wrong isgoing to be somebody else's
fault.
It's going to be useful.
Yeah, it's going to be somethingalong the lines of so like like
(15:23):
a religious cult is going to besomething along the lines of so
like like a religious cult isgoing to be an outsider that
that tried to knock down our,our way of living, an outsider
who?
Who doesn't agree with us, andtherefore you know they're.
They're trying to ruin what wehave.
If anything goes wrong within,it's either swept under the rug,
(15:48):
gaslighting, manipulation.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
So a lot of times you hear about these scandals that
happen in these cult-likechurches, where it's just like
oh yeah, they'll find out thatthe pastor abused a whole bunch
of kids over the years andpeople knew and didn't do
anything.
It was just like, oop, nothinghappened, pay them off, move
(16:13):
them to another church if needbe.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
Exactly, or they'll tell the people who it was done
to that.
Uh no, you're seeing thingswrong, you know or worse, are
the ones that are like.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
You brought this upon yourself because, you were
being an evil person and this ismore in like religious cults
that you'll see like that levelof of nastiness, but like you
got the cancer, you got sexualassaulted because you didn't
follow our teachings.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
Right.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
If you had, you wouldn't have been assaulted.
It's not actually how thatworks, okay.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
Another thing is zero tolerance for criticism or
questions, and so one of thethings is is that you know, just
as I was saying before,absolute obedience, loyalty.
The moment that you startquestioning this person or the
moment that you say like hey, Idon't like this about this
(17:13):
person, then it raises red flagsof like you know, like oh well,
maybe you need to be reeducated, and that reeducation it could
be very damaging.
Like hey, we're going to putyou in a separate room by
yourself, we're going tothreaten you, we're going to do
(17:36):
all these things to you.
Yeah, I mean the moment thatyou start questioning something.
The moment that you startquestioning something, they're
going to see that as a sign ofweakening of the person.
So I've worked with people incults and everything like that.
And the moment where it's justeven a simple question of like
(17:59):
hey, I didn't understand this,this seems a a little like
unclear there, right away,they're going to start taking
that person in and being likeokay, we're going to have like a
huge conversation and andreally try to force you to
understand.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
You know, from this point, you know like you should
you have to as the cult, becauseif you let somebody question
something, no-transcript.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
Lack of meaningful financial disclosure regarding
the budget.
So, as I kind of said beforeabout like when I looked up
about the church, where you knowlike 30%, I mean shit, that's a
lot that's a lot of money.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
I mean, even if you were only quote unquote,
required to give 10%, that's alot to be required to give
monetarily yeah, yeah I don'tknow a lot of people who could
have just like 10, let alone 30,of their income, just like gone
(19:21):
, you know, and and that's wherelike okay, where the dinner?
Speaker 1 (19:27):
that?
Speaker 2 (19:28):
Yep, that's how they pay for that.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
Yeah, that's how they're paying for that.
They're paying for a lot ofthese activities that you know
within the church.
So that guy who was telling meabout like, oh, come on
Saturdays, you know like we dothis, this, this and this, so
your entire life is based aroundthat, that church.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
Or that group or that group Cause again quotes don't
just have to be a church typething is mentality more than
anything.
And then again you know, with,with the financial disclosure,
you're not you.
You don't pay 30 of your yourcheck just for food, not, you
(20:13):
know, like the, the they'retaking a huge chunk of that too,
and part of that is to make youfinancially reliant on this,
because if you are putting thatmuch of your money and then you
figure that you also have to put, you know, like on average, and
it's probably grown 30% tohousing, and I don't know
(20:38):
anybody you know that's torecommend it, but you know the
way people are a little bithigher than that, unfortunately,
yeah.
I mean, unfortunately, today'ssociety, as for a hell of a lot
more than 30%.
But so I mean that's rightthere, that's 60%.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
You still got taxes, you still got living expenses
bills.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
So it's hard to save money in order to say like, okay
, you know what?
Fuck this, I'm out.
Where are you gonna go, youknow, because you don't have
anything in the bank you don'thave any friends you don't have
any friends.
You know and this is anotherthing unreasonable fears about
the outside world that ofteninvolved evil conspiracies and
(21:28):
persecutions.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
What strikes me the most about all of this is,
despite the number of kind oflike things you need to have to
make a cult, I can still thinkof numerous groups that I'd be
like yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,meets all the requirements.
This one, oh yeah, meets like99 requirements.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
Uh-huh, there's a lot out there I'm not sure what
that says about our world todayyou know and, yeah, you know
again, this is what I'm sayinglike it's not just religion,
it's it's a whole mentalitybecause, like, this is a huge
key of things, like you know,you're either with us with us or
you're against us.
You know the, the people whoare not with us.
(22:13):
They're trying to destroy youknow this good thing.
They're trying to destroy thethings that we have.
They're horrible people, people.
They dehumanize people andthings like that.
And then there's all the agendato strike fear into people Like
anybody who is not within thisgroup is people that are going
(22:37):
to hurt you.
These are the people that aregoing to cause sexual assault
and things like that.
No, people are people like justas many people inside is going
to be just as villainous as thepeople on the outside.
You can have a group of even10,000 people without a couple
(23:02):
of bad seeds in there.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
It doesn't matter what group they belong in.
There are always bad peopleunfortunately, there are always
going to be bad people.
Yeah, I mean, if you're not inthis group, then those are the
bad people.
Everybody here.
We're good.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
Well, you need to do that too.
It's like all these otherthings it isolates people, it
cuts them off, it makes themneed the group even more,
because if I'm scared ofeveryone else, then I'm not
going to try and go make friends, I'm not going to try and
interact with them, I'm notgoing to try and understand them
.
I'm going to come closer andcloser to home, home being my
cult, and I don't want to leave.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
And this a belief of former fathers are always wrong
or leaving and there is never alegitimate reason for anyone
else to leave.
So I've seen a lot of timeswhere quotes any family members,
(24:05):
people who I've seen, peoplewho were born into cults where
the moment that they startasking questions or they decide
to leave, they're ostracizedfrom their family.
Everybody, friends, you're gone.
(24:29):
You are dead to us or you're apiece of shit or anything.
And and even, like I said, Imean even within families where,
if they are not with us, thisis where you get a lot of the
arguments, you know, like the,you know like dorm, family get
togethers and things like that,where people are yelling back
and forth at each other, sayinglike you know you're wrong and
(24:53):
you're wrong and you know you'rejust trying to see, you know
like the destruction of whatever.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
And it's just like, how about showing the fuck up
and, just you know, enjoyingfamily time?
You know like, oh, no, no, no,no I do that when we can scream
at each other?
Yeah, so yeah, and that's thething, that whole mentality
you're either with us or you'reagainst us.
A lot of cults are going tohave abusive members.
(25:23):
So sexual abuse, mental abuse,physical abuse A lot of times
there's going to be things wherea lot of people don't realize
how mental abuse is just asharsh as sexual and physical.
A lot of people tend to forgetthat they think of physical,
that you're seeing those scars,you're seeing those bruises,
(25:44):
you're seeing those scars,you're seeing those bruises and
sexual being a physical thingmany of the times, but the whole
mental aspect of it where, yeah, I mean if my life or my
livelihood was dependent on thisand all of a sudden, like
everybody is telling me that I'ma piece of shit because I think
(26:04):
one thing differently, likethat's going to scar you know,
your, your mind.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
Yeah, even just seeing this stuff happening,
maybe within the group, andworrying that and saying it to
someone else, and then you know,getting this reeducation or
getting ostracized from thegroup and it's all you have.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
Followers feeling that they're never able to be
good enough, which to to this.
This is one of these thingswhere it's very we all do this
to to a degree.
You know, a lot of times whenI'm, when I'm working with
people like I, one of thebiggest things that I I've
(26:47):
helped people with is givingyourself credit for things,
because a lot of times I'll kindof make the example that you're
walking into a place and yourhands are full and somebody gets
to the door.
They hold it open.
They hold it open for like five, ten seconds longer.
(27:08):
You know, let you go in.
Yeah, what do most people say?
Speaker 2 (27:16):
I'm laughing Because I know you have a personal
vendetta against people whodon't say thank you and I
personally support your methodfor dealing with that.
You're welcome.
(27:37):
I mean, look, there are so manyways you can say thank you in
that situation.
Like you can literally saythank you, you do the smile and
nod like there's a way.
There's a way to show that yousaw that and you're thanking the
person yeah, yeah, I, you know.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
Even the smile and nod, like okay, you know, is not
the actual, but like that andyou're thanking the person.
Yeah, yeah, I, you know.
Even the smile, not like okay,you know, is not the actual, but
like you're, you're at leastacknowledging, like okay, thank
you, you know, like smile not,you know, I'll smile, nod back
and and let you go.
Uh, live your merry little life.
But you know, you know.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
Beware not saying thank you to Patches holding a
door open for you.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
Yeah, I will.
I will be that asshole thatcomes in right behind you
yelling you're welcome, yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
Love it.
I absolutely love it when youdo that.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
Like I said, if you don't want to say thank you,
fine, but most people are goingto say thank you.
Some people, you know, like thesmile or not or something like
that.
But when it comes to ourselves,we don't give ourselves credit
for doing, you know, good thingswhen we hold the door open,
(28:49):
because a lot of us we will justkind of say to ourselves, well,
that's what I would hope thatsomebody would do for me.
It should just be normal partof society.
Well no, unfortunately, you'reactually doing something nice,
(29:10):
you're doing something specialfor the other person.
So that's why, you know, mostpeople will say like thank you,
or at least acknowledge it.
And the thing is is that whenit comes to ourselves like,
unless we are going into aburning building and saving like
20 babies, we won't say to toourselves like you know, like
hey, I did something good.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
So you know, this whole thing of like followers
feeling that they were nevergoing to be good enough, there
is you know, they kind of playoff of that that mentality that
this is the way things should be.
So if you do something good,then you know it's because
that's the way things should be.
So if you do something good,then it's because that's the way
things should be.
But the only way that you canever do something or be good is
(29:57):
if you do something way beyondany expectations.
Well, like shit.
Speaker 2 (30:05):
Of course, because now you're always stuck striving
for that thing.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
Yeah, yeah, because it doesn't matter how much that
you donate to the church, itdoesn't matter how much that you
spend volunteering for thechurch, it doesn't matter how
much you give into the church orthe group.
Whatever you did is just theway it should be.
So you're taking away that.
(30:29):
Whatever you did is just theway it should be, so you're
taking away that.
That whole like thing of likeyou know that we did something
good or we did something special.
Because no, if, if you'revolunteering 60 hours to the, to
the group, why didn't youdonate 62 hours to the group?
Speaker 2 (30:51):
Yeah, come on.
You know, we always need help.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
You know we always need these other things, like
put more hours in the days.
There must be something elseyou can give.
And if you were holding back,why are you holding back?
Do you not love this group?
Do you not trust us?
Do you not want to be a part ofus?
Like, do you even want to behere?
Because it looks like you don't?
Speaker 1 (31:15):
I would make a great cult leader, this one.
I believe that the leader isright at all times that they
have the exclusive means ofknowing truth or giving
(31:36):
validation.
So a lot of times where, like,you'll hear something along the
lines of I have all the answersI have, I have the great mind
that, uh, everybody else needsto pay attention to if you.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
You read this book that I wrote.
It will have all the answers.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
Exactly so.
The thing is with cults is that, again, it doesn't matter if
it's a church or a politicalcult or a local cult.
You know the whole thing isthat they're attacking.
They attack our basicfundamental needs.
(32:16):
So, just as I was kind ofsaying before about, like, a lot
of the donations and the factthat you're giving such a high
percentage to these things, andthat's the thing is that then
you become completely reliant onthese people to meet your basic
(32:39):
needs of food safety and thingslike that.
Also, they kind of strive onthe basic fact we all want to
belong, we all want to.
You know that's that isliterally why we have
relationships, whether it is aromantic relationship or
(33:01):
friendships.
You know we all want to be apart of society.
Evolution.
That is how we got to where weare today.
We're social creatures what soand that's why, like one of the
big things that I kind of saywith, like depression, is, a lot
(33:24):
of times people will becomemore isolated and things like
that, and then it becomes thiswhole thing of like, the more
isolated that you get, the moredepressed that you get, the more
depressed that you get, themore that you feel like you need
to isolate Right.
So they're going after our mostbasic needs the need to belong,
(33:45):
the need to be able to feedourselves, the need to have
compassions, because, again,anybody who's outside of the
cult, they are demonized.
They are just trying to.
It is, you know, whether it isthe they're trying to bring down
whatever it is that you built,or they're.
(34:07):
Satan has a strong grip onthese people and they're trying
to get you too, and that's howthe devil works.
So one of the things is beingable to spot the cult.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:26):
One of the things that being able to spot a cult
is looking at the background ofthe leader.
So a lot of these cults aregoing to be things where
somebody was a used car salesmanand then all of a sudden they
realized that Jesus, that theywere the second coming of Christ
(34:46):
, or that they were a you know.
Try not to get in trouble.
I won't mention names.
They were a science fictionauthor, started a whole religion
based off of these writings.
They were a TV celebrityspokesperson or whatever you
(35:11):
know like nothing.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
Maybe, worked in real estate in New York.
That's all I'm going to say.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
They have no background with you know, it is
religion or or what they'retrying to lead.
Looking at education a lot oftimes like even if, uh, they
have like some kind of degree.
Looking at the school you knowis a credit school or is it like
a diploma mill.
Speaker 2 (35:41):
And when did they get it?
Speaker 1 (35:43):
Yeah, yeah, you know, like looking at when did they
get their degree or where didthey get their degree?
Because, again, there are somany of these diploma mills
where you pay $10,000 and it'sthe University of Joe Smith.
Speaker 2 (36:05):
Because people don't look by the time you're getting
your doctorate.
Oftentimes people, especiallyif they're not in the field,
they're not really looking atwhere you got it, Because it
doesn't matter.
You're now Dr Patchett, it'snot Dr Patchett from Temple
University.
You know that part is justforgotten and people don't think
to look into it and be likeI've never heard of this place
(36:26):
before.
What?
Speaker 1 (36:30):
Looking at breast warrants or things like that,
somebody again, you know,somebody who is a felon or
something like that, or somebodywho was caught using drugs and
all of a sudden, now they're thesecond coming of Christ.
(36:51):
Maybe not.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
Proceed with caution.
Speaker 1 (36:58):
Yeah, a lot of caution.
Does their background actuallyalign with their teachings?
So, are, are they?
Are they a huge christianperson?
But they've been married forthree times and cheating on
(37:23):
their spouses, not reallycorrelating with the presence
that they're trying to present.
Yeah, looking at their doctrine, is it all or nothing thinking,
you know?
Is it?
You're either with us oragainst us?
Are you giving me your absoluteloyalty or are you going to
(37:44):
question me?
Is the message clear andtransparent?
So are these people trying topresent like a very clear
ideology and if you do have anyquestions, you are able to ask,
you know, rather than being like, oh no, no, no, no, we don't
(38:07):
ask here.
Looking at membership, threeparts of a membership, uh,
recruitment.
The recruiter is not fullyhonest with their intent.
So come join me, you know, andjust yeah, I really want you to.
(38:28):
To check out, you know like, uh, check out the church with me.
They come in uh quickly I meanthe.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
The baptism on the second time you came is wild to
me.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
Yeah, seriously, that took me completely, like I was
like what?
Speaker 2 (38:50):
They lost a cult member right there.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
You could have joined .
Changes in speech dressing andtheir changes in ideas very
quickly.
So all of a sudden they'resaying like hey, like we want to
have a looking at me with jeansand T-shirts.
We really feel that in order toget closer, you know, to the
(39:16):
Holy Spirit, you really want topresent yourself better.
So then there's the next stageof maintenance.
So once they actually do haveyou in, they're going to ask you
to recruit friends and family,because if you're able to
recruit friends and family intoit, then you're going to feel
(39:37):
more and more secure, more andmore secure.
Again, that's going to give youmore and more reason to
participate in church activitiesrather than trying to seek
outside activities for differentthings.
Speaker 2 (39:50):
And that's fewer people who can try and convince
you to leave.
Speaker 1 (39:53):
Exactly Sleep deprivation In order to.
So that was one of the thingsof like this place I went to was
they would hold Bible studies.
So after the dinner the dinnerwas like at 8 o'clock this girl
(40:15):
asked me if I wanted to stay anddo like a Bible study with.
I was like at that point I wasjust like nope, nope, I'm done
completely no, and do like aBible study with with.
I was like at that point I wasjust like Nope, nope, I'm done
completely.
No, no, this is just way, way,way.
I got to get home now and that'swhen that guy gave me his
number and yeah, food uh deprive, uh, starting to lose weight.
(40:42):
I mean I, food uh deprive, uh,starting to lose weight.
I mean I, I know, like,obviously I I don't think that
they were going to do thatbefore I joined, but like I
didn't notice how, you know, theserving sizes were.
(41:05):
If you, you know, truly believeand and just kind of how you
were saying before, if you getcancer, it's because you didn't
do this or that you were doingthe wrong thing.
Like you know, for you tobetter yourself, you know you
really got to sit there and prayand you know to devote more to
the group and everything likethat.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
Yep, and if you really mean that God will heal
you.
Speaker 1 (41:29):
Yeah, and then activities, activities,
activities.
So just as this guy was sayingabout like, oh, come on
Saturdays and we have church onSaturdays and all have church on
Saturdays and you know allthese activities throughout the
day.
And the thing was, is that,yeah, a lot, you know, all of
(41:50):
your free time was spent at thechurch?
You were either studying theBible or studying their Bible,
you were, you were have likenormal activities, so like
sports, were have like normalactivities, so like sports, and
things like that.
The entire team is comprised ofpeople at the church, you know.
(42:10):
So I mean, yeah, you areguaranteed not to be bored, but
that's one way to look at it.
But I mean, again, everything is, everything is completely
dependent on the church, mm-hmm.
And then the last thing isleaving.
You know, like, if you seeother people like asking like
(42:34):
what is relationships withpeople who have left the church
to church, well, if they saylike we don't want anything to
do with them, or they'reostracized, or we tend not to
talk to them, that's a cult.
So I'm going to kind of closeoff here.
One of the things that's reallyreally scary about cults is
(42:58):
that it is impossible, once aloved one is in a cult, trying
to get them out of a cult.
Because, again, this is whereall these different things come
into play.
You know, like any phone,anybody from the outside,
they're, they're, they're.
They have a a strong grip withsatan or they have a strong grip
(43:21):
with the evildoers and they'rejust trying to pull you away
from this good thing.
Speaker 2 (43:28):
They're jealous.
Speaker 1 (43:30):
They're jealous.
They want what you want, orthat they want what you have.
Speaker 2 (43:35):
And they want to take it from you, so that you can't
talk to them, can't be incontact with them, because
they're going to take you down.
Speaker 1 (43:41):
you can't talk to them, can't be in contact with
them because they're going totake you down.
It's hard to try to convincesomebody, because you can use
all the logic that you want.
You can sit there and talk tothem until they're blue in the
face, you know.
The only thing that you canreally do is say like hey, I
love you, I'm here for you Ifyou need anything and if they do
(44:03):
have questions, being honestwith them, but not saying that
you're wrong.
Yeah, because the moment thatyou say that you're wrong again,
that feeds into that whole ideathat they're just trying to
pull you out.
So ultimately, it's sad, but itcomes down to the person saying
(44:23):
like oh shit, maybe I'm in acult.
Speaker 2 (44:27):
Yeah, I don't feel good here anymore.
I don't like this.
I feel like I'm being punished.
You know, I asked a questionand there was this extreme
punishment and I don'tunderstand.
So now I'm looking into it likeshit.
Now I have more questions andooh.
But most people will not gothat route, unfortunately, I
think.
Speaker 1 (44:47):
And that's why the only thing that you can do is
just say if you need anything,I'm here for you.
You're giving that person thatopportunity to say like, okay, I
don't feel good, I don't feelsafe, even if I'm not prepared
to leave the cult fully yet, Istill have some place to go,
that I can get away for a coupleof days, and that again, even
(45:11):
if they're in that spot, youdon't want to say like you know,
like, dude, you're in a cult,blah, blah, blah, you know.
It's just.
You have to let that personmake that decision.
Speaker 2 (45:21):
Yeah, which is hard, which?
Speaker 1 (45:22):
is hard, which is hard, it's extremely hard,
especially the family.
You know they lost whoever itwas that went into it.
They want them back and yeah.
So, with that being said, wheredo we go from here?
Speaker 2 (45:42):
that being said, where do we go from here?
So, as you said, there's onceyou're in or once somebody you
know is in.
They're probably not coming out.
So, in this case, the bestoffense is defense, and that is
paying attention to all of thosesigns that you just listed to
be like, hey, there's thisreally cool group and I'm
(46:05):
thinking about getting involvedwith them, be it a church, be it
something else.
I'm not going to plug thepodcast because I have feelings
about it.
You know where this is going,but there is a podcast called Is
it a Cult.
You can go ahead and listen.
If you haven't heard heard ofit, go ahead and listen to a
(46:26):
couple of episodes and thengoogle it and read about the the
case, the lawsuit between thetwo people.
I'm just going to put that oneout there if you get weird vibes
, but I do appreciate the fact.
Like, what originally drew meto that podcast was the fact
that they were looking at, Imean, even things as wild as
Disney adults.
Like, are Disney adults a cult?
(46:48):
And it opened my mind to thefact that, you know, anything
can be a cult, as you, thosethings that you just listed.
We tend to think about religionlike as a top, and I would
imagine that there are a lot ofreligious cults as compared to
other ones.
Like religion is one of thosethings you could very easily tie
(47:09):
into this type of thing, but itdoesn't have to.
These don't have to bereligious, they don't have to be
political, and so it'simportant to, whenever you're
looking at this group, as yousaid, if there's this like
really charismatic leader, justdo your research, just look them
up Like it's not anything wrong, it's not anything bad, you're
not doing something illegal.
(47:30):
Just kind of get someinformation Like who is this
group, what are they doing, andmaybe you'll find that you're
like, wow, this is reallyinteresting.
Like I feel like I would be agreat match.
Maybe you'll look at it andyou'll go, hey, not a good match
, but this is an okay group.
Maybe you'll look at it likeyou did and you're like, oh,
(47:50):
that's a cult.
So, yeah, I think, being awareahead of time that there are a
lot of cults out there A lot, alot, a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot,
a lot, a lot and watching forthose signs so that you can
avoid it and you can call it outto the people around you before
(48:11):
anyone is like you know what, Idon't know, I you know, I think
it would be fun to go back.
Ain't wrong?
We're not going back.
We went that one time, whateverit was.
That shit was crazy.
We're not doing that.
Speaker 1 (48:27):
I agree, I think that education, knowing the
background and everything.
There's a wonderful book it'sCombating Quote, Mind Control by
Stephen Hussain.
He was born into a cult in the60s and once he realized that or
(48:54):
I don't think, I'm not sure ifhe was born into he was a cult
member and he realized that hewas in a cult and once he got
away from it then he reallystudied up on cults and
everything like that.
He got his doctorate.
So that's a good book to read,but also, yeah, being educated
(49:19):
on the entire cult as abackground as a whole.
Speaker 2 (49:24):
Yeah and just be looking for those signs, because
once you see them and know them, then they're much easier to
kind of spot and be like ah,that's why I'm getting weird
vibes.
Like being able to have a namefor the bad vibes that are
coming off of this group thatyou have stumbled upon is
(49:45):
important, because if you justgo back to people and you're
like, yeah, I don't know, thischurch wasn't for me, that's a
whole different thing than youcoming back to me like that was
a cult and so that's why, like,I don't want anything to do that
.
And if this chick tries to talkto you about that, like be
aware, this is what that is,then people will be like, oh no,
(50:06):
now everyone stays away from itso, with all that being said,
where would you put this on ourscale of toxicity?
Speaker 1 (50:15):
would you say that this is a green potato, where
you just chop off the green andyou can still eat it?
Is this a death cap mushroom,where you have a 50-50 shot of
it killing you?
Or would you say that this isantifreeze, where it's a
delightful last meal?
Speaker 2 (50:32):
Antifreeze.
I don't even have to.
That was a really easy one.
I've been waiting for thismoment because as soon as you
told me what we were talkingabout, I was like ooh, I know,
I'm going to place it on thescale of toxicity.
But it is.
There's nothing good aboutcults.
Nothing, nothing, nothing,nothing, nothing, nothing.
(50:52):
They only bring harm to people.
And you can try and argue like,ooh, some of the people who are
in the cult are happy they'redoing well.
They couldn't do well outsideof the cult.
Are you saying they couldn'thave a regular, happy life
without giving up 30% of theirincome, without having to
support a leader who maybesexually assaults young women?
But surely they could also justhave a normal life and be happy
(51:18):
?
They don't need this cultfoundation to have a good life
and to have friends.
There's nothing extra that thecult is offering them and it
just drives a wedge throughsociety.
It cuts people off.
The reason why I've beenlooking into this and why I was
aware of some of this stuff isbecause I'm maybe working on an
upcoming episode about MLMs.
Speaker 1 (51:40):
Ooh.
Speaker 2 (51:41):
Ooh.
So yeah, there's a lot ofoverlap there.
Yeah, there's just there'snothing good that comes from
them.
It tears families apart, ittears communities apart, it
allows bad behavior to festerand it gives it a place where it
can like, hide and continue andwhere we excuse it and it
becomes normalized and a freezeI would have to say, uh, I
(52:06):
absolutely a thousand percentagree with you.
Speaker 1 (52:10):
And one of the things that you did bring up and I'm
glad that you brought this up,because I this was something I I
meant to kind of put in therepeople who go around saying like
, well, at least they're happyin the group, you know, and
things like that and the thingis is that I remember I had
worked with somebody who hadgotten out at one point.
(52:31):
I'm trying to make it as big aspossible.
One of the things that actuallykind of surprised me when I,
when I was helping this personout, was that I had to teach
them emotions, because it wasn'tso much the idea that happiness
because that person hadhappiness really well done.
(52:54):
I had to teach them that it'sokay to be pissed, that's okay
to be angry, upset, because thewhole thing is with Colts is
that there is always that levelof you're working towards
something better and thateverything that you do, any type
(53:15):
of pain that you feel, youshould feel grateful for,
because that's all part of thebuilding.
So, whether it is a religiousthat you're building towards
going to heaven or you know agroup where you are building
towards a better place.
(53:35):
Anything or any type of pain,any type of mistreatment is all
for the better good of the goal.
Speaker 2 (53:45):
Yep, so you just got to suck it up and be thankful.
Speaker 1 (53:49):
Yeah, so yeah, and that was the thing was, when I
helped this person out, I never,ever thought of that is that I
actually had to teach thisperson how to be pissed.
Speaker 2 (54:01):
That's interesting.
I wouldn't have fully expectedthat either.
Yeah, but it makes sense that,like that wasn't something that
they were allowed to feel likeanger, disappointment, sadness.
Speaker 1 (54:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (54:13):
Like nope gone, we don't think, we don't think
about those.
Speaker 1 (54:15):
Yeah, yeah, they said that something or somebody had
done something to them and Iasked them well, how did it make
you feel?
And they're like well, you know, it's just, you know I'm okay
with it, because I was like, oh,actually, are you, are you Like
(54:38):
that would piss me off?
Like that would piss me off?
Speaking of quotes, you canfollow us on social media.
We have Facebook, we have X, wehave TikTok.
Speaker 2 (54:53):
Wait, wait, wait, hold on, hold on.
You're always getting ahead ofyourself here.
We technically have X andTikTok.
We are semi-active on Facebook,instagram and maybe Blue Sky.
We're cutting out the shittyones.
Speaker 1 (55:10):
Well, tiktok wasn't necessarily shitty, but you got
yourself accidentally deletedfrom that, so good job, good job
, but well, I'm thinking thatTikTok is now on the evil side.
Thank you so much for listeningto us.
We're looking forward to seeingyou next week.
(55:32):
My name is Big ChristopherPatchett, lcsw and I've been
Lindsay McLean bye bye.
Speaker 2 (55:40):
I've been Lindsay McLean.
Bye, bye.
Hi and welcome to Toxic Cooking Show, where we
break down toxic people down totheir simplest ingredients.
I'm your host, christopherPatchett LCSW.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
And I'm Lindsay McLean.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
I want to start off before going into the topic, I
want to start off with givingyou a little story.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Ooh.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
I was a fresh social worker and I was working at a
private psychiatric hospital and, as I was waiting for this one
position to open up, I wasworking at a sister hospital the
unit that I was working at.
I ended up I met this reallycool girl and she was a med tech
(01:05):
.
Med techs are people thatthey're the first line of
defense.
They're usually the ones that apatient will go up to and say
like hey, like you know, like Ineed extra socks or I need like
an extra blanket or whatever, orif they have like a question to
ask the social worker, then themed tech will come back and
(01:27):
they'll get the social worker orthe nurse or whoever.
So usually they're going to bethe people that the patient has
the most interaction with.
And one time I see her, she'sin the back and she's like
reading a book and I was like oh, oh, you know, like what are
you reading?
I just I had a huge, huge crushon this girl.
(01:49):
Like I mean, yeah, and and solike I mean that's a good
question to ask, to like spark alittle conversation yeah, yeah,
you know.
So what are you reading?
So she's telling me she'sreading about this, a book from
her church.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
I was like oh, you know what religion are you.
And she's like she's part ofthe Church of God.
And I'm like, okay, okay, andso I started asking questions
and showing interest and thingslike that.
And she's telling me about herreligion.
I'm like, okay, okay, cool,cool.
So she comes at the end she'slike you know, hey, you know,
(02:33):
it'd be really nice if youjoined me.
I'd really love for you to comewith me and everything like
that.
So me being the person I am,I'm like oh, you know, damn nice
date I'll be able to'm like oh,you know, damn nice date I'll
be able to, like, you know, goto church with her and then
maybe we can go out for icecream or whatever hang out
(02:54):
together hang out together.
No problems here no red flags,so so I was like, okay, yeah,
sure, sure, sure, and.
And so I get to her churchlater on that night and I meet
her outside.
I'm like, oh, hey, how's itgoing?
Blah, blah, blah.
And so I give her a hug and shebrings me upstairs.
(03:16):
She brought me into this room,she sits down.
I sit down, like you know, kindof next to her and everything,
and so we're talking for acouple of seconds and then,
within maybe two minutes, someguy comes in.
I'm just like, oh, fuckingcockplucker.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Little did you know.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Little did I know.
So this guy comes in and he'stelling me the whole history of
their Bible.
I'm just like, okay.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
How did you keep a straight face?
That's what I want to know.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
You know?
So here's the thing.
Okay, so I would considermyself to be a Buddhist atheist,
and you know that.
But for everybody else, Iconsider myself to be a buddhist
atheist.
You know, and you know that.
But you know, for everybodyelse, I I consider myself to be
a buddhist atheist.
I I believe in in buddhism asfar as like a way, way of life,
but you know, as far as likeanything else, I I would say
(04:15):
that I'm more of an atheist typeperson.
I will have to say that they doa very good job of presenting
the, the bible, and like it's.
You know, it's one of thesethings where, if you don't think
about it, it makes absolutesense yeah, yeah but the moment
(04:39):
that you think about it for fiveseconds or more, then you're
like you, just see the hole yeah, you're like wait, wait, but
but you know he's gone into,like how the the bible did this
perfect prediction of everythingand how, like, how everything
is so like, exact with what itsays beforehand oh yeah, yeah,
the bible never contradictsitself so never.
(05:03):
So I, I'm sitting there, I'mlike, huh, okay, okay, okay.
And then, like you know, likethe back of my head, like I'm
kind of going through theinformation, I'm like okay,
whatever, yeah, but at least I'msitting next to this girl.
Yeah, get to look over, and shelooks over at me, and you know,
(05:24):
just to see if I'm gettingeverything, and I give her a
little smile.
So at least I get that much.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
That just tells me how downhill this thing is.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
At the end there the guy, he comes up to me.
He's like like actually, youknow what you know?
Uh, I really want you to comein tomorrow and and just you
know, like there's a couplethings I I want to kind of talk
to you about and everything likethat.
I'm like sure you know worstcase scenario at least I get to
like spend time with, uh, sowrong say goodbye and everything
(06:07):
like that and and uh, I wasjust like, okay, you know, I'll
be back tomorrow same time, comeback in next day same time.
See this person.
And I say, like you know, likehey, how's it going?
Blah, blah, uh.
She brings me up to the sameroom and I'm like cool, like you
know, like at least I'll getlike a couple seconds to like
talk to her and everything.
(06:28):
And so she's like, oh, you know, like uh, and so I sit down.
And then as soon as I sit down,she leaves.
I'm like mother fucker.
So guy comes in, nothing.
He's telling me more about likeyou know how, how everything is
perfect and and how all theseuh things are, are perfectly
(06:50):
aligned and you know this, thatand the other.
And I'm like whatever, likefuck.
So at the very, very end maybeabout an hour and a half, two
hour speech of of all this, yeah, yeah and maybe about an hour
and a half two hour speech ofall this.
Yeah, yeah, he's like.
So you know, with all thatbeing said, like what do you
(07:11):
think?
And I'm trying to be nice I'mlike okay, you know, like, yeah,
you know, I totally canunderstand how you believe this
and everything like that.
And you know he's like well,here let me show you something.
And he brings me into anotherroom and it's like a bathtub
type thing and he's like, youknow, like we do our like
(07:32):
baptism's there, and did he want?
Speaker 2 (07:35):
to baptize you right there.
Yes, oh no, stranger danger.
Stranger danger, by the way.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
Pat.
So he's showing me this and I'mjust like, okay, Nice.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Wait, but are you baptized, Like already?
Speaker 1 (07:52):
I believe so.
I'm sure my mom would have hadme baptized.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
I kind of assumed you were because you grew up
Catholic area.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
Yeah, brought up Roman Catholic.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Yeah, I got the little baby.
Yeah, yeah, up Roman Catholicso like I was a little baby.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Yeah, yeah, I think I got the, uh, the dunk.
So so he's, you know, he showedme the, the bathtub, and he's
like this is where we do ourbaptisms and things like that.
And then he's like would youlike to be baptized?
I was like, oh, oh, would youlike to be baptized?
(08:29):
I was like, oh, no, no, I don'tthink I'm ready yet.
And so he's like, okay, okay,you know, take your time.
And so he's like well, we'reabout to have dinner.
Like I would love for you to beable to join me, uh, join us
for dinner.
I'm like, cool, like you know,like, okay, dinner now, maybe I
get cool, like you know, like,okay, dinner Now, maybe I get to
sit across from you know, thisperson, this girl, and at least
(08:52):
get a couple minutesconversation with this girl.
And so I'm like, yeah, sure.
So we go downstairs and as soonas we go downstairs, I see men
on one side, women on the otherside.
I'm like, oh, fuck.
So I'm sitting there and theypray, they're thanking the Lord
(09:17):
for the food and all that.
And then we have somebody who'sjoining us and looking at maybe
joining the church, and I'mlike, better not say me, better
not say me, better not say me.
And Christopher Patchett, youknow, like, please stand down.
I'm standing up.
I'm like everybody's applauding, like welcome, welcome, welcome
(09:40):
, welcome.
I'm like, oh fuck, gotta getout of here.
So we have dinner, welcome,welcome.
I'm like, oh, fuck, gotta getout of here.
So we have dinner.
We're talking for a little bitand then, finally, when dinner
was over with, I, go upstairs, Igo to my car and the one guy
he's there, he's like yeah, youknow, this Saturday we're going
to have activities, blah, blah,blah, this, that and the other.
(10:03):
And you want to come?
Well, activities, blah, blah,blah, this, that and the other.
And you want to come?
Well, this Saturday I alreadyhave plans.
But you know, damn, you knowI'd love to, and you know, like,
Darn, I'm just so busy for therest of my life.
So so I was just like he's like,oh well, well, like, let me get
(10:25):
your number and, and you know,I'll give you a call and maybe
next week we'll, we'll gettogether and everything.
I was like sure nice to saythough.
So I gave him my number and andI was like okay, this girl is
not worth, like I don't care howcool, how nice, how hot, she is
(10:46):
not worth it.
So I I go home, uh, and I waslike you know what?
There were some things about it.
It just really hit me as ascult, like yeah so you know the
the I.
I looked online and I was justcurious of like okay, is it me
(11:09):
or is it just like?
You know like that, or am Ilike really seeing, like you
know like something here?
And so I looked online.
I saw YouTube videos of it andpeople were saying that, yes,
you know like, as soon as Ijoined you, you know they wanted
me to break away from my family.
They wanted to.
You know like, I had to donatelike 33 of my uh pay what so I
(11:36):
mean, it was just like and youknow story after story of like
people saying like, yeah, yes,this is a cult, stay the fuck
away.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
I was like anything that makes you break off contact
with friends or family.
Anything that tells you that'slike, if they try and dissuade
you, they don't love you.
Instant, like 10,000 red flags,run away, run away so fast you
are getting way ahead of me.
I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'll shut up, way ahead of me.
(12:04):
I'm sorry.
I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'll shutup.
Damn you, lindsay.
Aw, I knew I was gonna get theguard voice.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Join my cult.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
The cult of Molly.
That would be Molly's cultfirst off.
You better put our Queen EP ontop.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
You know what?
I'm already a member, so youare Motherfucker.
Give me 33% more treats.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
So I can puke them all up over your bed, god.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
Good times, good times, was it?
So today's episode talkingabout cults, and a lot of times
when we think about cults wethink automatically to like
religious cults, and there Imean there are.
(13:07):
The idea of a cult is it's moreof a mental thing, so like
Christianity, judaism, thingslike that, not a cult, you know
it's a religion.
Right, there are sectors of eachof these.
There are sectors of each ofthese, but as a whole, like,
(13:27):
okay, you're going in, you havethese beliefs, you gather up and
everything like that it's aunity type thing.
Cool, go for it.
However, you know, like thewhole mentality that kind of
(13:50):
goes into a cult and everythinglike that, and these were some
things that you were just sayingabout and things that I'm going
to go into.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
Sorry.
I just got too excited.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
So I was looking up about, like, what exactly
constitutes as a cult.
So one of the things isabsolute, authoritarian, without
accountability.
So everything that is beingsaid, everything that is being
done, absolutely necessary, it'sfor the betterment of our group
(14:23):
.
It's for the betterment of ourgroup.
It's for the betterment ofwhatever.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
And I assume too that would apply to the leader of
the cult being able to say dothis, don't do that, and you
would have to follow.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's a very absolute, like I'm
right.
There's no question about it.
So it's a lot of times theleader is going to be asking for
people to have absolute loyalty, obedience.
You're going to do what I say,you're never going to question
(15:01):
what I say, and that's going tobe kind of the mentality of the
leader there.
So it's absolute, authoritarian, without accountability.
Anything that does go wrong isgoing to be somebody else's
fault.
It's going to be useful.
Yeah, it's going to be somethingalong the lines of so like like
(15:23):
a religious cult is going to besomething along the lines of so
like like a religious cult isgoing to be an outsider that
that tried to knock down our,our way of living, an outsider
who?
Who doesn't agree with us, andtherefore you know they're.
They're trying to ruin what wehave.
If anything goes wrong within,it's either swept under the rug,
(15:48):
gaslighting, manipulation.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
So a lot of times you hear about these scandals that
happen in these cult-likechurches, where it's just like
oh yeah, they'll find out thatthe pastor abused a whole bunch
of kids over the years andpeople knew and didn't do
anything.
It was just like, oop, nothinghappened, pay them off, move
(16:13):
them to another church if needbe.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
Exactly, or they'll tell the people who it was done
to that.
Uh no, you're seeing thingswrong, you know or worse, are
the ones that are like.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
You brought this upon yourself because, you were
being an evil person and this ismore in like religious cults
that you'll see like that levelof of nastiness, but like you
got the cancer, you got sexualassaulted because you didn't
follow our teachings.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
Right.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
If you had, you wouldn't have been assaulted.
It's not actually how thatworks, okay.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
Another thing is zero tolerance for criticism or
questions, and so one of thethings is is that you know, just
as I was saying before,absolute obedience, loyalty.
The moment that you startquestioning this person or the
moment that you say like hey, Idon't like this about this
(17:13):
person, then it raises red flagsof like you know, like oh well,
maybe you need to be reeducated, and that reeducation it could
be very damaging.
Like hey, we're going to putyou in a separate room by
yourself, we're going tothreaten you, we're going to do
(17:36):
all these things to you.
Yeah, I mean the moment thatyou start questioning something.
The moment that you startquestioning something, they're
going to see that as a sign ofweakening of the person.
So I've worked with people incults and everything like that.
And the moment where it's justeven a simple question of like
(17:59):
hey, I didn't understand this,this seems a a little like
unclear there, right away,they're going to start taking
that person in and being likeokay, we're going to have like a
huge conversation and andreally try to force you to
understand.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
You know, from this point, you know like you should
you have to as the cult, becauseif you let somebody question
something, no-transcript.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
Lack of meaningful financial disclosure regarding
the budget.
So, as I kind of said beforeabout like when I looked up
about the church, where you knowlike 30%, I mean shit, that's a
lot that's a lot of money.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
I mean, even if you were only quote unquote,
required to give 10%, that's alot to be required to give
monetarily yeah, yeah I don'tknow a lot of people who could
have just like 10, let alone 30,of their income, just like gone
(19:21):
, you know, and and that's wherelike okay, where the dinner?
Speaker 1 (19:27):
that?
Speaker 2 (19:28):
Yep, that's how they pay for that.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
Yeah, that's how they're paying for that.
They're paying for a lot ofthese activities that you know
within the church.
So that guy who was telling meabout like, oh, come on
Saturdays, you know like we dothis, this, this and this, so
your entire life is based aroundthat, that church.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
Or that group or that group Cause again quotes don't
just have to be a church typething is mentality more than
anything.
And then again you know, with,with the financial disclosure,
you're not you.
You don't pay 30 of your yourcheck just for food, not, you
(20:13):
know, like the, the they'retaking a huge chunk of that too,
and part of that is to make youfinancially reliant on this,
because if you are putting thatmuch of your money and then you
figure that you also have to put, you know, like on average, and
it's probably grown 30% tohousing, and I don't know
(20:38):
anybody you know that's torecommend it, but you know the
way people are a little bithigher than that, unfortunately,
yeah.
I mean, unfortunately, today'ssociety, as for a hell of a lot
more than 30%.
But so I mean that's rightthere, that's 60%.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
You still got taxes, you still got living expenses
bills.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
So it's hard to save money in order to say like, okay
, you know what?
Fuck this, I'm out.
Where are you gonna go, youknow, because you don't have
anything in the bank you don'thave any friends you don't have
any friends.
You know and this is anotherthing unreasonable fears about
the outside world that ofteninvolved evil conspiracies and
(21:28):
persecutions.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
What strikes me the most about all of this is,
despite the number of kind oflike things you need to have to
make a cult, I can still thinkof numerous groups that I'd be
like yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,meets all the requirements.
This one, oh yeah, meets like99 requirements.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
Uh-huh, there's a lot out there I'm not sure what
that says about our world todayyou know and, yeah, you know
again, this is what I'm sayinglike it's not just religion,
it's it's a whole mentalitybecause, like, this is a huge
key of things, like you know,you're either with us with us or
you're against us.
You know the, the people whoare not with us.
(22:13):
They're trying to destroy youknow this good thing.
They're trying to destroy thethings that we have.
They're horrible people, people.
They dehumanize people andthings like that.
And then there's all the agendato strike fear into people Like
anybody who is not within thisgroup is people that are going
(22:37):
to hurt you.
These are the people that aregoing to cause sexual assault
and things like that.
No, people are people like justas many people inside is going
to be just as villainous as thepeople on the outside.
You can have a group of even10,000 people without a couple
(23:02):
of bad seeds in there.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
It doesn't matter what group they belong in.
There are always bad peopleunfortunately, there are always
going to be bad people.
Yeah, I mean, if you're not inthis group, then those are the
bad people.
Everybody here.
We're good.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
Well, you need to do that too.
It's like all these otherthings it isolates people, it
cuts them off, it makes themneed the group even more,
because if I'm scared ofeveryone else, then I'm not
going to try and go make friends, I'm not going to try and
interact with them, I'm notgoing to try and understand them
.
I'm going to come closer andcloser to home, home being my
cult, and I don't want to leave.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
And this a belief of former fathers are always wrong
or leaving and there is never alegitimate reason for anyone
else to leave.
So I've seen a lot of timeswhere quotes any family members,
(24:05):
people who I've seen, peoplewho were born into cults where
the moment that they startasking questions or they decide
to leave, they're ostracizedfrom their family.
Everybody, friends, you're gone.
(24:29):
You are dead to us or you're apiece of shit or anything.
And and even, like I said, Imean even within families where,
if they are not with us, thisis where you get a lot of the
arguments, you know, like the,you know like dorm, family get
togethers and things like that,where people are yelling back
and forth at each other, sayinglike you know you're wrong and
(24:53):
you're wrong and you know you'rejust trying to see, you know
like the destruction of whatever.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
And it's just like, how about showing the fuck up
and, just you know, enjoyingfamily time?
You know like, oh, no, no, no,no I do that when we can scream
at each other?
Yeah, so yeah, and that's thething, that whole mentality
you're either with us or you'reagainst us.
A lot of cults are going tohave abusive members.
(25:23):
So sexual abuse, mental abuse,physical abuse A lot of times
there's going to be things wherea lot of people don't realize
how mental abuse is just asharsh as sexual and physical.
A lot of people tend to forgetthat they think of physical,
that you're seeing those scars,you're seeing those bruises,
(25:44):
you're seeing those scars,you're seeing those bruises and
sexual being a physical thingmany of the times, but the whole
mental aspect of it where, yeah, I mean if my life or my
livelihood was dependent on thisand all of a sudden, like
everybody is telling me that I'ma piece of shit because I think
(26:04):
one thing differently, likethat's going to scar you know,
your, your mind.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
Yeah, even just seeing this stuff happening,
maybe within the group, andworrying that and saying it to
someone else, and then you know,getting this reeducation or
getting ostracized from thegroup and it's all you have.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
Followers feeling that they're never able to be
good enough, which to to this.
This is one of these thingswhere it's very we all do this
to to a degree.
You know, a lot of times whenI'm, when I'm working with
people like I, one of thebiggest things that I I've
(26:47):
helped people with is givingyourself credit for things,
because a lot of times I'll kindof make the example that you're
walking into a place and yourhands are full and somebody gets
to the door.
They hold it open.
They hold it open for like five, ten seconds longer.
(27:08):
You know, let you go in.
Yeah, what do most people say?
Speaker 2 (27:16):
I'm laughing Because I know you have a personal
vendetta against people whodon't say thank you and I
personally support your methodfor dealing with that.
You're welcome.
(27:37):
I mean, look, there are so manyways you can say thank you in
that situation.
Like you can literally saythank you, you do the smile and
nod like there's a way.
There's a way to show that yousaw that and you're thanking the
person yeah, yeah, I, you know.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
Even the smile and nod, like okay, you know, is not
the actual, but like that andyou're thanking the person.
Yeah, yeah, I, you know.
Even the smile, not like okay,you know, is not the actual, but
like you're, you're at leastacknowledging, like okay, thank
you, you know, like smile not,you know, I'll smile, nod back
and and let you go.
Uh, live your merry little life.
But you know, you know.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
Beware not saying thank you to Patches holding a
door open for you.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
Yeah, I will.
I will be that asshole thatcomes in right behind you
yelling you're welcome, yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
Love it.
I absolutely love it when youdo that.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
Like I said, if you don't want to say thank you,
fine, but most people are goingto say thank you.
Some people, you know, like thesmile or not or something like
that.
But when it comes to ourselves,we don't give ourselves credit
for doing, you know, good thingswhen we hold the door open,
(28:49):
because a lot of us we will justkind of say to ourselves, well,
that's what I would hope thatsomebody would do for me.
It should just be normal partof society.
Well no, unfortunately, you'reactually doing something nice,
(29:10):
you're doing something specialfor the other person.
So that's why, you know, mostpeople will say like thank you,
or at least acknowledge it.
And the thing is is that whenit comes to ourselves like,
unless we are going into aburning building and saving like
20 babies, we won't say to toourselves like you know, like
hey, I did something good.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
So you know, this whole thing of like followers
feeling that they were nevergoing to be good enough, there
is you know, they kind of playoff of that that mentality that
this is the way things should be.
So if you do something good,then you know it's because
that's the way things should be.
So if you do something good,then it's because that's the way
things should be.
But the only way that you canever do something or be good is
(29:57):
if you do something way beyondany expectations.
Well, like shit.
Speaker 2 (30:05):
Of course, because now you're always stuck striving
for that thing.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
Yeah, yeah, because it doesn't matter how much that
you donate to the church, itdoesn't matter how much that you
spend volunteering for thechurch, it doesn't matter how
much you give into the church orthe group.
Whatever you did is just theway it should be.
So you're taking away that.
(30:29):
Whatever you did is just theway it should be, so you're
taking away that.
That whole like thing of likeyou know that we did something
good or we did something special.
Because no, if, if you'revolunteering 60 hours to the, to
the group, why didn't youdonate 62 hours to the group?
Speaker 2 (30:51):
Yeah, come on.
You know, we always need help.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
You know we always need these other things, like
put more hours in the days.
There must be something elseyou can give.
And if you were holding back,why are you holding back?
Do you not love this group?
Do you not trust us?
Do you not want to be a part ofus?
Like, do you even want to behere?
Because it looks like you don't?
Speaker 1 (31:15):
I would make a great cult leader, this one.
I believe that the leader isright at all times that they
have the exclusive means ofknowing truth or giving
(31:36):
validation.
So a lot of times where, like,you'll hear something along the
lines of I have all the answersI have, I have the great mind
that, uh, everybody else needsto pay attention to if you.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
You read this book that I wrote.
It will have all the answers.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
Exactly so.
The thing is with cults is that, again, it doesn't matter if
it's a church or a politicalcult or a local cult.
You know the whole thing isthat they're attacking.
They attack our basicfundamental needs.
(32:16):
So, just as I was kind ofsaying before about, like, a lot
of the donations and the factthat you're giving such a high
percentage to these things, andthat's the thing is that then
you become completely reliant onthese people to meet your basic
(32:39):
needs of food safety and thingslike that.
Also, they kind of strive onthe basic fact we all want to
belong, we all want to.
You know that's that isliterally why we have
relationships, whether it is aromantic relationship or
(33:01):
friendships.
You know we all want to be apart of society.
Evolution.
That is how we got to where weare today.
We're social creatures what soand that's why, like one of the
big things that I kind of saywith, like depression, is, a lot
(33:24):
of times people will becomemore isolated and things like
that, and then it becomes thiswhole thing of like, the more
isolated that you get, the moredepressed that you get, the more
depressed that you get, themore that you feel like you need
to isolate Right.
So they're going after our mostbasic needs the need to belong,
(33:45):
the need to be able to feedourselves, the need to have
compassions, because, again,anybody who's outside of the
cult, they are demonized.
They are just trying to.
It is, you know, whether it isthe they're trying to bring down
whatever it is that you built,or they're.
(34:07):
Satan has a strong grip onthese people and they're trying
to get you too, and that's howthe devil works.
So one of the things is beingable to spot the cult.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:26):
One of the things that being able to spot a cult
is looking at the background ofthe leader.
So a lot of these cults aregoing to be things where
somebody was a used car salesmanand then all of a sudden they
realized that Jesus, that theywere the second coming of Christ
(34:46):
, or that they were a you know.
Try not to get in trouble.
I won't mention names.
They were a science fictionauthor, started a whole religion
based off of these writings.
They were a TV celebrityspokesperson or whatever you
(35:11):
know like nothing.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
Maybe, worked in real estate in New York.
That's all I'm going to say.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
They have no background with you know, it is
religion or or what they'retrying to lead.
Looking at education a lot oftimes like even if, uh, they
have like some kind of degree.
Looking at the school you knowis a credit school or is it like
a diploma mill.
Speaker 2 (35:41):
And when did they get it?
Speaker 1 (35:43):
Yeah, yeah, you know, like looking at when did they
get their degree or where didthey get their degree?
Because, again, there are somany of these diploma mills
where you pay $10,000 and it'sthe University of Joe Smith.
Speaker 2 (36:05):
Because people don't look by the time you're getting
your doctorate.
Oftentimes people, especiallyif they're not in the field,
they're not really looking atwhere you got it, Because it
doesn't matter.
You're now Dr Patchett, it'snot Dr Patchett from Temple
University.
You know that part is justforgotten and people don't think
to look into it and be likeI've never heard of this place
(36:26):
before.
What?
Speaker 1 (36:30):
Looking at breast warrants or things like that,
somebody again, you know,somebody who is a felon or
something like that, or somebodywho was caught using drugs and
all of a sudden, now they're thesecond coming of Christ.
(36:51):
Maybe not.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
Proceed with caution.
Speaker 1 (36:58):
Yeah, a lot of caution.
Does their background actuallyalign with their teachings?
So, are, are they?
Are they a huge christianperson?
But they've been married forthree times and cheating on
(37:23):
their spouses, not reallycorrelating with the presence
that they're trying to present.
Yeah, looking at their doctrine, is it all or nothing thinking,
you know?
Is it?
You're either with us oragainst us?
Are you giving me your absoluteloyalty or are you going to
(37:44):
question me?
Is the message clear andtransparent?
So are these people trying topresent like a very clear
ideology and if you do have anyquestions, you are able to ask,
you know, rather than being like, oh no, no, no, no, we don't
(38:07):
ask here.
Looking at membership, threeparts of a membership, uh,
recruitment.
The recruiter is not fullyhonest with their intent.
So come join me, you know, andjust yeah, I really want you to.
(38:28):
To check out, you know like, uh, check out the church with me.
They come in uh quickly I meanthe.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
The baptism on the second time you came is wild to
me.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
Yeah, seriously, that took me completely, like I was
like what?
Speaker 2 (38:50):
They lost a cult member right there.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
You could have joined .
Changes in speech dressing andtheir changes in ideas very
quickly.
So all of a sudden they'resaying like hey, like we want to
have a looking at me with jeansand T-shirts.
We really feel that in order toget closer, you know, to the
(39:16):
Holy Spirit, you really want topresent yourself better.
So then there's the next stageof maintenance.
So once they actually do haveyou in, they're going to ask you
to recruit friends and family,because if you're able to
recruit friends and family intoit, then you're going to feel
(39:37):
more and more secure, more andmore secure.
Again, that's going to give youmore and more reason to
participate in church activitiesrather than trying to seek
outside activities for differentthings.
Speaker 2 (39:50):
And that's fewer people who can try and convince
you to leave.
Speaker 1 (39:53):
Exactly Sleep deprivation In order to.
So that was one of the thingsof like this place I went to was
they would hold Bible studies.
So after the dinner the dinnerwas like at 8 o'clock this girl
(40:15):
asked me if I wanted to stay anddo like a Bible study with.
I was like at that point I wasjust like nope, nope, I'm done
completely no, and do like aBible study with with.
I was like at that point I wasjust like Nope, nope, I'm done
completely.
No, no, this is just way, way,way.
I got to get home now and that'swhen that guy gave me his
number and yeah, food uh deprive, uh, starting to lose weight.
(40:42):
I mean I, food uh deprive, uh,starting to lose weight.
I mean I, I know, like,obviously I I don't think that
they were going to do thatbefore I joined, but like I
didn't notice how, you know, theserving sizes were.
(41:05):
If you, you know, truly believeand and just kind of how you
were saying before, if you getcancer, it's because you didn't
do this or that you were doingthe wrong thing.
Like you know, for you tobetter yourself, you know you
really got to sit there and prayand you know to devote more to
the group and everything likethat.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
Yep, and if you really mean that God will heal
you.
Speaker 1 (41:29):
Yeah, and then activities, activities,
activities.
So just as this guy was sayingabout like, oh, come on
Saturdays and we have church onSaturdays and all have church on
Saturdays and you know allthese activities throughout the
day.
And the thing was, is that,yeah, a lot, you know, all of
(41:50):
your free time was spent at thechurch?
You were either studying theBible or studying their Bible,
you were, you were have likenormal activities, so like
sports, were have like normalactivities, so like sports, and
things like that.
The entire team is comprised ofpeople at the church, you know.
(42:10):
So I mean, yeah, you areguaranteed not to be bored, but
that's one way to look at it.
But I mean, again, everything is, everything is completely
dependent on the church, mm-hmm.
And then the last thing isleaving.
You know, like, if you seeother people like asking like
(42:34):
what is relationships withpeople who have left the church
to church, well, if they saylike we don't want anything to
do with them, or they'reostracized, or we tend not to
talk to them, that's a cult.
So I'm going to kind of closeoff here.
One of the things that's reallyreally scary about cults is
(42:58):
that it is impossible, once aloved one is in a cult, trying
to get them out of a cult.
Because, again, this is whereall these different things come
into play.
You know, like any phone,anybody from the outside,
they're, they're, they're.
They have a a strong grip withsatan or they have a strong grip
(43:21):
with the evildoers and they'rejust trying to pull you away
from this good thing.
Speaker 2 (43:28):
They're jealous.
Speaker 1 (43:30):
They're jealous.
They want what you want, orthat they want what you have.
Speaker 2 (43:35):
And they want to take it from you, so that you can't
talk to them, can't be incontact with them, because
they're going to take you down.
Speaker 1 (43:41):
you can't talk to them, can't be in contact with
them because they're going totake you down.
It's hard to try to convincesomebody, because you can use
all the logic that you want.
You can sit there and talk tothem until they're blue in the
face, you know.
The only thing that you canreally do is say like hey, I
love you, I'm here for you Ifyou need anything and if they do
(44:03):
have questions, being honestwith them, but not saying that
you're wrong.
Yeah, because the moment thatyou say that you're wrong again,
that feeds into that whole ideathat they're just trying to
pull you out.
So ultimately, it's sad, but itcomes down to the person saying
(44:23):
like oh shit, maybe I'm in acult.
Speaker 2 (44:27):
Yeah, I don't feel good here anymore.
I don't like this.
I feel like I'm being punished.
You know, I asked a questionand there was this extreme
punishment and I don'tunderstand.
So now I'm looking into it likeshit.
Now I have more questions andooh.
But most people will not gothat route, unfortunately, I
think.
Speaker 1 (44:47):
And that's why the only thing that you can do is
just say if you need anything,I'm here for you.
You're giving that person thatopportunity to say like, okay, I
don't feel good, I don't feelsafe, even if I'm not prepared
to leave the cult fully yet, Istill have some place to go,
that I can get away for a coupleof days, and that again, even
(45:11):
if they're in that spot, youdon't want to say like you know,
like, dude, you're in a cult,blah, blah, blah, you know.
It's just.
You have to let that personmake that decision.
Speaker 2 (45:21):
Yeah, which is hard, which?
Speaker 1 (45:22):
is hard, which is hard, it's extremely hard,
especially the family.
You know they lost whoever itwas that went into it.
They want them back and yeah.
So, with that being said, wheredo we go from here?
Speaker 2 (45:42):
that being said, where do we go from here?
So, as you said, there's onceyou're in or once somebody you
know is in.
They're probably not coming out.
So, in this case, the bestoffense is defense, and that is
paying attention to all of thosesigns that you just listed to
be like, hey, there's thisreally cool group and I'm
(46:05):
thinking about getting involvedwith them, be it a church, be it
something else.
I'm not going to plug thepodcast because I have feelings
about it.
You know where this is going,but there is a podcast called Is
it a Cult.
You can go ahead and listen.
If you haven't heard heard ofit, go ahead and listen to a
(46:26):
couple of episodes and thengoogle it and read about the the
case, the lawsuit between thetwo people.
I'm just going to put that oneout there if you get weird vibes
, but I do appreciate the fact.
Like, what originally drew meto that podcast was the fact
that they were looking at, Imean, even things as wild as
Disney adults.
Like, are Disney adults a cult?
(46:48):
And it opened my mind to thefact that, you know, anything
can be a cult, as you, thosethings that you just listed.
We tend to think about religionlike as a top, and I would
imagine that there are a lot ofreligious cults as compared to
other ones.
Like religion is one of thosethings you could very easily tie
(47:09):
into this type of thing, but itdoesn't have to.
These don't have to bereligious, they don't have to be
political, and so it'simportant to, whenever you're
looking at this group, as yousaid, if there's this like
really charismatic leader, justdo your research, just look them
up Like it's not anything wrong, it's not anything bad, you're
not doing something illegal.
(47:30):
Just kind of get someinformation Like who is this
group, what are they doing, andmaybe you'll find that you're
like, wow, this is reallyinteresting.
Like I feel like I would be agreat match.
Maybe you'll look at it andyou'll go, hey, not a good match
, but this is an okay group.
Maybe you'll look at it likeyou did and you're like, oh,
(47:50):
that's a cult.
So, yeah, I think, being awareahead of time that there are a
lot of cults out there A lot, alot, a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot,
a lot, a lot and watching forthose signs so that you can
avoid it and you can call it outto the people around you before
(48:11):
anyone is like you know what, Idon't know, I you know, I think
it would be fun to go back.
Ain't wrong?
We're not going back.
We went that one time, whateverit was.
That shit was crazy.
We're not doing that.
Speaker 1 (48:27):
I agree, I think that education, knowing the
background and everything.
There's a wonderful book it'sCombating Quote, Mind Control by
Stephen Hussain.
He was born into a cult in the60s and once he realized that or
(48:54):
I don't think, I'm not sure ifhe was born into he was a cult
member and he realized that hewas in a cult and once he got
away from it then he reallystudied up on cults and
everything like that.
He got his doctorate.
So that's a good book to read,but also, yeah, being educated
(49:19):
on the entire cult as abackground as a whole.
Speaker 2 (49:24):
Yeah and just be looking for those signs, because
once you see them and know them, then they're much easier to
kind of spot and be like ah,that's why I'm getting weird
vibes.
Like being able to have a namefor the bad vibes that are
coming off of this group thatyou have stumbled upon is
(49:45):
important, because if you justgo back to people and you're
like, yeah, I don't know, thischurch wasn't for me, that's a
whole different thing than youcoming back to me like that was
a cult and so that's why, like,I don't want anything to do that
.
And if this chick tries to talkto you about that, like be
aware, this is what that is,then people will be like, oh no,
(50:06):
now everyone stays away from itso, with all that being said,
where would you put this on ourscale of toxicity?
Speaker 1 (50:15):
would you say that this is a green potato, where
you just chop off the green andyou can still eat it?
Is this a death cap mushroom,where you have a 50-50 shot of
it killing you?
Or would you say that this isantifreeze, where it's a
delightful last meal?
Speaker 2 (50:32):
Antifreeze.
I don't even have to.
That was a really easy one.
I've been waiting for thismoment because as soon as you
told me what we were talkingabout, I was like ooh, I know,
I'm going to place it on thescale of toxicity.
But it is.
There's nothing good aboutcults.
Nothing, nothing, nothing,nothing, nothing, nothing.
(50:52):
They only bring harm to people.
And you can try and argue like,ooh, some of the people who are
in the cult are happy they'redoing well.
They couldn't do well outsideof the cult.
Are you saying they couldn'thave a regular, happy life
without giving up 30% of theirincome, without having to
support a leader who maybesexually assaults young women?
But surely they could also justhave a normal life and be happy
(51:18):
?
They don't need this cultfoundation to have a good life
and to have friends.
There's nothing extra that thecult is offering them and it
just drives a wedge throughsociety.
It cuts people off.
The reason why I've beenlooking into this and why I was
aware of some of this stuff isbecause I'm maybe working on an
upcoming episode about MLMs.
Speaker 1 (51:40):
Ooh.
Speaker 2 (51:41):
Ooh.
So yeah, there's a lot ofoverlap there.
Yeah, there's just there'snothing good that comes from
them.
It tears families apart, ittears communities apart, it
allows bad behavior to festerand it gives it a place where it
can like, hide and continue andwhere we excuse it and it
becomes normalized and a freezeI would have to say, uh, I
(52:06):
absolutely a thousand percentagree with you.
Speaker 1 (52:10):
And one of the things that you did bring up and I'm
glad that you brought this up,because I this was something I I
meant to kind of put in therepeople who go around saying like
, well, at least they're happyin the group, you know, and
things like that and the thingis is that I remember I had
worked with somebody who hadgotten out at one point.
(52:31):
I'm trying to make it as big aspossible.
One of the things that actuallykind of surprised me when I,
when I was helping this personout, was that I had to teach
them emotions, because it wasn'tso much the idea that happiness
because that person hadhappiness really well done.
(52:54):
I had to teach them that it'sokay to be pissed, that's okay
to be angry, upset, because thewhole thing is with Colts is
that there is always that levelof you're working towards
something better and thateverything that you do, any type
(53:15):
of pain that you feel, youshould feel grateful for,
because that's all part of thebuilding.
So, whether it is a religiousthat you're building towards
going to heaven or you know agroup where you are building
towards a better place.
(53:35):
Anything or any type of pain,any type of mistreatment is all
for the better good of the goal.
Speaker 2 (53:45):
Yep, so you just got to suck it up and be thankful.
Speaker 1 (53:49):
Yeah, so yeah, and that was the thing was, when I
helped this person out, I never,ever thought of that is that I
actually had to teach thisperson how to be pissed.
Speaker 2 (54:01):
That's interesting.
I wouldn't have fully expectedthat either.
Yeah, but it makes sense that,like that wasn't something that
they were allowed to feel likeanger, disappointment, sadness.
Speaker 1 (54:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (54:13):
Like nope gone, we don't think, we don't think
about those.
Speaker 1 (54:15):
Yeah, yeah, they said that something or somebody had
done something to them and Iasked them well, how did it make
you feel?
And they're like well, you know, it's just, you know I'm okay
with it, because I was like, oh,actually, are you, are you Like
(54:38):
that would piss me off?
Like that would piss me off?
Speaking of quotes, you canfollow us on social media.
We have Facebook, we have X, wehave TikTok.
Speaker 2 (54:53):
Wait, wait, wait, hold on, hold on.
You're always getting ahead ofyourself here.
We technically have X andTikTok.
We are semi-active on Facebook,instagram and maybe Blue Sky.
We're cutting out the shittyones.
Speaker 1 (55:10):
Well, tiktok wasn't necessarily shitty, but you got
yourself accidentally deletedfrom that, so good job, good job
, but well, I'm thinking thatTikTok is now on the evil side.
Thank you so much for listeningto us.
We're looking forward to seeingyou next week.
(55:32):
My name is Big ChristopherPatchett, lcsw and I've been
Lindsay McLean bye bye.
Speaker 2 (55:40):
I've been Lindsay McLean.
Bye, bye.
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