April 17, 2025 • 58 mins
We've all felt that gut-punch moment. You discover that celebrity you've adored for years—whose work shaped your identity or brought you comfort—has revealed themselves to be deeply problematic. Your social media feed floods with damning evidence, your friends debate whether to throw away their merchandise, and you're left wondering: what now?
This episode dives headfirst into the messy, emotional territory of fallen idols. From JK Rowling's transformation from beloved author to controversial TERF figure, Johnny Depp's complicated history of abuse allegations masked by brilliant PR, to Elon Musk's increasingly erratic behavior and Neil Gaiman's disturbing accusations—we explore what happens when heroes become villains in their own stories.
But this conversation goes deeper than celebrity gossip. We're examining the moral gymnastics we perform to justify continuing to support problematic creators. Does "separating the art from the artist" hold up when your financial support enables ongoing harmful behavior? Can you draw a clear line between enjoying someone's creative work and endorsing their worldview?
The reality is both complex and simple. While completely eliminating all problematic consumption might be impossible (yes, we all need smartphones), small changes collectively make massive impacts. Every ticket unsold, every subscription canceled, every book unbought sends a message. Whether it's cutting your Target visits in half or passing on the newest Tesla, these decisions reflect our values in action.
Perhaps the healthiest approach is to abandon the concept of heroes altogether. No gods, no heroes, no idols—just people, all flawed, all capable of both brilliance and terrible judgment. The choice to withdraw your support isn't about purity; it's about aligning your actions with your values, even when it means letting go of things you once loved.
What celebrities have you struggled to separate from their work? Where do you draw your personal line? Share your thoughts with us and join the conversation about ethical consumption in a world where information travels at the speed of a tweet.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Hi and welcome to the Toxic Cooking Show, where we
break down toxic people to theirsimplest ingredients.
I'm your host for this week,Lindsay McLeclean, and with me
is my fantastic co-hostchristopher patchett lcsw I have
to say credit where credit isdue.
I did not come up with the namefor this episode.
(00:37):
I wish I did.
I wish I thought of cool stufflike that.
I actually stole this fromsomebody on the internet.
I don't remember her exactusername because she has a
couple different pages.
Have you ever seen the sadbeige lady?
Speaker 2 (00:57):
No.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
Sad beige whatever for sad beige children, and she
impersonates Werner Herzog.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
No.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
I guess the algorithm shows us very different things.
She, she is fantastic.
I love her.
She was the one who firstquoted the name, the the no gods
, no heroes, no idols inreference to one of the things
I'm going to be talking about,one of the examples and I
(01:25):
believe that was the name of anarticle about this, because I
haven't seen it anywhere else,but it was too beautiful to just
leave there.
I want to expand it.
So I'm starting off with aquestion, though, for you when
you were growing up, did youhave a hero or an idol?
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Kurt Cobain.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
The way that just rolled off your tongue, I would
say he still sort of is, maybe.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
I would say my top two favorite bands of all time
is Nirvana and Flag of Mali.
Nirvana, I would say growing up, that was my hero idol.
Whatever as an adult, I wouldsay Flag up, that was my hero
idol.
Whatever as an adult, I wouldsay Flog of Molly.
So yeah, you know the wholestory, how I met them and
everything.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Yeah, so yeah, well, and our beloved EP is named
Molly, and it's not for the drug.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
Oh my God, I can't tell you how many times people
thought that ew, I'm like, I'mnot gonna name my dog after a
drug like what is wrong with youpeople?
Be dumb so my last dog's namewas sid vicious and somebody
actually asked me is he namedafter the wrestler or the drug
(02:43):
addict?
I was like the drug addict fair?
Speaker 1 (02:49):
true, in that case it would be.
If they knew that, then maybeasking about molly's name is a
valid question.
So I have to say I never had ahero or an idol or whatever
growing up.
Like I hated that question atschool, I don't know.
There was never just anyone,and there still isn't anyone
(03:10):
that I would name and be likethis person, like I think
they're so, so, so cool and Ireally look up to them.
And, to be honest, now in 2025,I'm really glad for that.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
So no, taylor Swift.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
No, I know, Shocking, right, Hmm, but yeah, we, it
feels like on a daily, weeklybasis at least, are finding out
horrific facts about people intoday's world.
It's like every time you lookat the news, it's just this
(03:50):
person you thought was reallycool, they're actually a
humongous asshole.
You're like okay, and then thenext week it's the same thing
and the same thing, and the samething.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
We're constantly finding out this information
about people and you're probablygonna slap me because I'm I'm
guessing that these are gonna benames that you're bringing up
is ellen and lizzo actuallythose are not two on my list,
but we can definitely talk aboutthem because they they are also
.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
The classic example of people that we used to
idolize is like wow, this issomebody who's like amazing and
cool and wonderful.
And then the information comesout and you're like whoopsies
let me not support you anymore,because I've noticed that there
are two general types of waysthat this happens.
(04:45):
One of them is like the slow-mo,roll-down hill-to-hill type
person, where it starts off withone problematic thing but it's
not too problematic, everything,I believe, for me to support
(05:07):
you, okay.
And then there's another one,and another one, and another one
, and it takes a little while,but suddenly you look around and
you're like, oh, we're in hell,we've made it there and I just
didn't realize and I havecontinued to support this person
.
And now what do you do?
And then there are people whoit's just like the bombshell
allegations where, like all of asudden, out of nowhere,
(05:28):
something drops and it just likecompletely shatters your view
of them.
And there can be some overlap.
Looking at you, p Diddy, youknow where there are some
allegations that are goingaround.
It's not like completely likeoh really.
But then all the informationthat comes out and you're like
how many bottles of baby oil youknow?
(05:51):
And never in case you havesomebody who went from being
like beloved to reviled, justlike complete 180 for many
people anyway.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Tell me you shut up, if this is one of the things
that you can bring up, but thething that really gets me,
though, is that they take 180,but people forget.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
So, like mel gibson, yes, mel Gibson, yes, yeah, yeah
, there are a lot of cases.
There were so many cases tochoose from here.
When I sat down to do this, Iwas almost overwhelmed by like
but who do I pick?
It's not one.
That's really like I needanother example.
It's like who's the bestexample, who's the worst example
(06:41):
?
But yeah, there are a lot andpeople do forget about it, which
is why we need to be talkingabout this, because if you have
a hero or idol and they do shitstuff, you should rethink that
relationship.
We do not forget.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
Yeah, unfortunately, kevin Spacey is another one that
he's starting to come back into.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
No, no, how it was only 10 years ago.
Well, there are certain thingsyou can come back from and there
are certain things that youdon't come back from, and I need
us to understand the difference, because all the stuff that I'm
going to be talking about hereis stuff that, like you, you
really can't come back from, butpeople are trying to, people
(07:26):
are trying to avoid because thisis their hero or idol.
So you ready to hear someexamples?
yes, let's hear them so one ofthe first people I thought about
with this was Miss Moldy Wall,herself JK Rowling.
Oh God, yeah, you and I bothknow people who have Harry
(07:54):
Potter tattoos.
That's a thing.
That was such a thing back inthe day and I know, in case it
wasn't clear yes, I'm amillennial.
That's why I know somebody witha Harry Potter tattoo.
So I also worked at a camp thathad a full week of Harry Potter
.
That was the theme.
We played Quidditch, we had atask in the lake, we had this
(08:20):
whole night theme and the kidswere dressed up and it was like
Harry Potter to the max.
I grew up reading those books.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
I made you read those books wait, no, no, no, no,
wait, wait, wait, wait oh, youchose completely on free will
yes, yes, I, I caved in.
I.
So you, you were trying toforce me to read the books,
(08:45):
watch the movie, anything.
And I was like nope, nope, nope, nope, nope.
And I think it was somebodythat I worked with who's my age
and she was saying about likeHarry Potter.
I was like fine, fine.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
I'll fucking read it.
But yeah, see, you got on theharry potter train, you know I I
still know my house like that'sis a huge thing, especially for
millennials like I.
Get that you were probably likejust outside that age range
yeah, the first book came outwhen I was 17 yeah, and I was
(09:24):
god.
I sometimes forget because nowthat we're adults the age
difference like isn't so bad,but I remember my mom reading
the first and second books to mysister and me, like my sister
was old enough to read them andthe books had been a present for
her, I think for my grandmother, but I was still like just
young enough that it was likeyou get to have this, you know,
read to you chapter by chapterand I was like fuck yeah I love
(09:46):
this but there was a time when,like she was jk rowling, was
like super cool, like every oneof her tweets or like every
other tweet was something likedumbledore is gay.
People were like, yes, queenslay, because she felt like she
cared and like she was rollingwith the times.
Do you remember that?
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Yeah, yeah, okay, I totally remember.
Well, I mean, it wasn't eventhat long ago.
It was what?
Maybe 2018, 19?
Well, no, it was just about thetime that I started reading
that she went.
So it was 2020, 2021.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
time that I started reading that she went.
So it was 2020, 2021.
Yeah, 2018, 2019 is rightaround the time when she
suddenly made a little likeu-turn and started saying some
real offensive shit.
Yeah, she has.
In case you've been livingunder a rock, she has outed
herself as a turf.
So turf stands for trans,exclusionary, radical feminist.
That is a group of women whoare feminists and super
(10:49):
pro-women.
As long as you were born, awoman Can't be trans.
If you were trans, you were notactually a woman.
That is a man and men can getthe fuck out of here.
So there was a special littlegroup of people and you know,
(11:10):
she kind of said some things.
People were like, oh my god,and then she just doubled down.
But she really doubled down onthis and she continues to to
this day to tweet reallyhorrific things and really nasty
things about trans women andbeing very exclusionary over who
can be a woman and who we'reallowing in.
That's if, if you support gayrights, you can't like JK
(11:33):
Rowling.
I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
Yeah, it's funny because I remember when it first
came out and she doubled downon it and things like that, and
I was like okay, like okay, thisis gonna you know, this can
roll over, that eventually maybeshe might open up or whatever,
or or at least just shut thefuck up about it, right?
Speaker 1 (11:55):
and now she's just still she's still out there
every day maybe not every day,but it is a constant.
She continues to repeat thisviewpoint, which is why I'm like
you can't ignore this.
Yes, she has done some reallygreat things.
She continues to do greatthings.
She continues to give money to,for instance, you know, help
(12:15):
ukraine, um, to help childrenthere.
There's a lot of good stuffthat she does, but then she also
goes and gets on twitter andsays stuff like, does stuff like
.
She'll post a list of transwomen and say, and I quote, they
are men.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
Every last one of them but the thing is, with her,
she she's kind of excludingherself because she's extremely
pro-gay, so she's cutting outthe the, the right, and then's
extremely anti-trans, which nowshe's cutting out the left.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
Yeah, she really seems to be trying to shoot
herself in both feet, because Ialso remember the panic the
satanic panic around HarryPotter and witchcraft and the
devil, so it's not like theright is going to be like we
love you, now we're going toread your books.
Those people still don't likeharry potter.
They never will, and now youhave cut out the whole group of
(13:13):
people who absolutely like,adored you.
So many of them are like.
It's not enough, though, andwe'll talk about this at the end
, but, like I, I would love.
I would love people to puttheir money where their mouth is
, especially for her I I lovethe fact that the actors of
harry potter have come outagainst yeah, and she's.
(13:35):
She's attacked them on twitterfor that yeah because of course
she did.
Yeah, don't worry, we've gotmore.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
Oh boy.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
Another fantastic example of people we should not
be supporting if we have morals.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
Johnny Depp.
Okay, I might be missingsomething, but go ahead.
Have you been living under arock, sir?
So I do know that he goes forthe younger women I don't know.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
That's orlando bloom.
Is orlando bloom not orlandobloom, um or no?
He had matt damon.
It's not johnny depp.
You're you're confusing himwith somebody else.
I can see the man, the, the onewho has the meme of the glass,
being like Leonardo DiCaprio.
There we go.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
But, Johnny Depp, it was that whole trial thing right
.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
There's more.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
Okay, so all I know about is the trial.
I haven't heard anything elseoutside of that, but the trial.
She had problems too.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
That kind of made it seem like, okay, maybe he didn't
go to the extent that she wassaying.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
So, to be fair, his PR team ran props to them, team
ran props to them.
They completely dominated thatnarrative and were able to kind
of swing it to be like, wow,look at this crazy bitch and I'm
not saying that she'scompletely innocent in this,
(15:19):
because there were just enoughthings about that trial that
you're like who pooped in whosebed now?
Weird stuff like that.
You're like, okay, you've gotsome problems too.
But his PR team did a wholenumber on that and when you look
back at the information thatwas being put out people who
were live streaming and tweetingand vlogging about it you'll
(15:40):
notice that it is incredibly,incredibly one-sided.
Like these people were likethere when people were
testifying and Johnny Depp hadwitnesses Magically, no one's
talking about when Amber Heardwas up, that we just we're not
going to even look at that.
Like that's a problem Gotta.
Look at both sides of things.
(16:01):
Both people can be crazy.
Look at both sides of things.
Both people can be crazy.
But he, he has a history ofverbal abuse, domestic abuse
there's, you know, substanceabuse and alcoholism are in
there.
Obviously that's more of like apersonal thing.
He has been sued for hittingand verbally assaulting film
crew members before.
There have been other previousissues again with, like, the
(16:23):
domestic abuse and a lot of itfor him.
Until this has been kind oflike rumors or you know weird
divorces or or things like that,but never like publicly
exploded.
But certainly if you look atthe amber heard johnny depp
trial, he did some prettyhorrific things to her too.
It's like, uh, can we stillwatch pirates of the caribbean
(16:51):
knowing that this is somebodywho domestic like abuses their
partner?
Is that what you want to dowith your life and your money?
hmm, it's yeah, yeah yeah, he'sone of the classic ones I see of
people being like, oh, but Ireally like his movies.
I really like, you know, edwardScissorhands.
I get it.
(17:12):
I really like, again, piratesof the Caribbean High school.
That was a big thing for me.
Again, this is somebody who hasa history of abuse against
other people.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
I love the Gen X, millenn, uh, millennial, uh
timeline there, or the the cut,because I'd like I don't give a
flying fuck about pirate,pirates, but I'm like, oh my god
, you know, like fucking edwardssands, that was a fucking
awesome movie I know it's, it'sa really hard divide, like we
(17:45):
started that and we're likeeverything.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
After that, that he did like, oh my god, amazing,
and you guys, it was kind oflike up until that point and
after I was like, who is thisman?
Yeah, yeah, he's, he'sproblematic.
There you go, though.
Uh, people still trying tocover it up.
Uh, and speaking about men whohave been trying to cover stuff
up, this is the guy who I gotthe title, the episode name, in
(18:10):
reference to Neil Gaiman.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
American.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
God.
I have recommended his writingto you before.
He is an author.
He wrote American Gods, goodOmens, which also has the TV
series.
He co-wrote that with TerryPratchett.
He's an incredibly well-knownfantasy writer.
Like I love his stuff, I'll behonest.
(18:35):
Like American Gods is fantastic.
I have reread it multiple times.
So to preface this, not toolong ago I was at a dinner party
with some friends and somethingcame up about the podcast and I
told them the name and sopeople were looking up and one
person was like everything'srated e for explicit.
(18:55):
What are you guys talking about?
I was like no, no, no, no, wejust say fuck a lot.
That's why that's there it's notlike the, the actual topics
necessarily, it's just, we curseoh my god, it actually um.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
I don't know why, but a couple days ago I thought
about this.
There is one episode that we donot curse is it the one with my
mom?
Speaker 1 (19:21):
Yeah, it's trying so hard.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
Every other episode.
Fuck yeah, fuck this, fuck that, fuck them your mom.
Well, yes, yes, I do agree,quite, quite happily.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
Oh, yes, absolutely yeah, I was like that.
That's why we have that.
So, bearing that in mind, therape allegations against Neil
Gaiman are not something that Iwill be talking about on here.
I'll say fuck all day.
What I read was incrediblygraphic, like it wasn't just
(20:00):
rape, it was real bizarre stuff.
Yeah, some of these allegationsthis one is ongoing.
To be fair, he has justrecently produced some text
messages with one of the womeninvolved, looking like it might
be something more consensual.
That was happening.
I cannot comment on that.
(20:22):
I did not see the originalstuff.
I did not see those textmessages.
This is still happening.
Certainly like when theseallegations hit the news, people
came down pretty hard, at leastinitially, and like TV shows
got canceled and continuing workon Good Omens got canceled.
How have you not seen that orread it?
I'm so disappointed in youAlthough don't do it now, see,
(20:44):
it's too late you missed youropportunity.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
I mean, I guess this is not a name that I really
register.
I mean, I'm sure you just kindof like, hey, check this out,
and I'm like, yeah, whatever.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
Yeah, it probably was just said in passing.
We were having a discussionabout books or whatever, and I
was like, oh my God, you've gotto read this one.
It wouldn't have been somethingthat I brought up like 18 times
in a row read this one.
It wouldn't have been somethingthat I brought up like 18 times
in a row, like you have to readAmerican gods, you have to, you
have to, you have to, but nowyou're not allowed to.
So and a last person for you,before we discuss all these
(21:22):
horrific people, and my heartgoes out to you as I say this I
have a feeling, yep musk okay,okay, I.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
I thought that you were gonna say somebody else,
but oh, yes, yes, my heart, ohgod.
How did I not see that?
Speaker 1 (21:42):
right, I was waiting for you to be like.
No, yeah, even before he wentlike full dark maga or whatever
it is that he was calling it, hedoes, at this point now, have
14 children with four differentwomen.
There's, there was just a 14ththat was born like how long ago
(22:05):
really recently, because 13 wasthe um weird fucked up name no,
no, no, no.
That that one's way back there.
Now he's got more.
He's got a whole bunch more.
Yeah, he's just continuedhaving them.
No 13 was with the, I think, theinfluencer, who basically
(22:27):
people are giving her shit forthis and again, this is one.
That's where you look at thetwo of them and you're like I
don't know what's true, but bothof you were fucked up here.
She made it clear, like foryears that she wanted to have
his kid and ashley st claire,and then she supposedly had his
kid and now he won't pay childsupport.
She, she got on twitter to belike, won't you take care of
(22:48):
your baby?
And yeah, I think I'm prettysure that's number 13.
Yeah, even before that, evenwhen he had a normal number of
children, we've seen him gettinghigh during important meetings
for years.
(23:11):
That's been a question thatmaybe we should be thinking
about.
We're like, wow, here's thisperson who's really pushing the
limits with SpaceX, who's doinga lot of work on self-driving
cars, who's doing a lot of workon electric vehicles and
charging stations and stuff likethat.
A lot of people supported himoriginally because of that and
(23:32):
they overlooked some of theseissues, some of the quirks, and
if it had just been like, oh, hegets high during whatever call
it was.
It was some important businesscall.
I just remember he wasapparently puffing away on weed
or something.
If that was the extent of it, wewould not be talking about him
right now.
That's the type of hey, you'reallowed to have your opinion,
(23:55):
I'm allowed to have mine, and wecan still be okay.
We can do that.
When you buy Twitter and thenlet all of the white
supremacists who were banned onit back on, that's a problem.
Uh, you refusing to acknowledgethat your daughter is trans?
(24:15):
That's a problem.
You routinely promotingconspiracy theories like and not
just any conspiracy theories,but like the wildest conspiracy
theories that's a problem, andthat has been going on for years
.
That is not a new development.
He's one of those like slowburn type ones, but it has been
(24:38):
pretty evident for a while now.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
I think that the man's weird, at the very least I
don't know if it was so much aslow burn, because it wasn't
that long ago that.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
He started during COVID, you can see a change
where all of a sudden he waslike no, we shouldn't be having
the lockdowns and stuff likethat.
People still kind of were like,oh, but he gave Starlink to
Ukraine.
He still kind of had some someflips that were going on in
there.
But for me, if you're going tosit there and be like you know,
(25:13):
this is not.
I want to be able to go where Iwant to go.
I don't want to have to justsit at home to protect myself
for the woke virus that tells methat you're headed the wrong
way I mean, it's that like okay.
I would say, if it was just that, then that would be like okay,
(25:34):
like there's a red flag there,but right and this is why I say
that he's that slow burn,because there are red flags and
when you look back hindsightyou're like we should have seen
this coming a while ago, likemore people should have seen it
coming because the red flagswere big enough that it's like
all right, here's a red flag andthen here's some like beige to
(25:57):
greeny flags and here's a redflag, some beige and green flags
.
But we really should havecalled on soon.
It's like the red flags keepcoming.
They keep happening with likesome regularity that this is
maybe not somebody that weshould be super idolizing.
This is somebody who's not realstable and is prone to saying
(26:21):
just wild ass shit.
Maybe not somebody who I want tohold up as my hero.
Or, if you are choosing to holdhim up as your hero, I have
some questions for you.
You can't find anybody elsewho's doing good work on
self-driving cars.
You can't find anyone elsewho's doing work with spaceships
, space shuttles, whateverthey're called.
(26:43):
There's no one, no one else.
It's got to be this guy with 14kids, with four different women
.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
You know, with everything going on with Tesla,
one of the biggest things I loveseeing is where people are like
.
Oh you know, I thought that theleft was all about like cars,
and now all of a sudden you'rebringing.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
Oh, the empathy thing , yeah, and he was like the
biggest problem in the worldright now is too much empathy,
and then he literally gets onfox news like I thought the left
was the party of empathy it'snot so much.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
I put it like you know, like where people are,
like oh you know, like the leftwas all about electric cars and
now, all of a sudden, it's likeyou guys do realize that other
companies make electric cars,like what you know, just like
you guys uh going out there, uhshooting at bud lights.
(27:40):
There are other beers to choosefrom you know that analogy
right there.
You know, yeah, we might nowhate Tesla because of the man
who owns it, but all the otherfucking car manufacturers are
(28:02):
now making electric cars.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
Yeah, there are a lot of them out there.
Now there's a pretty big choicelike range that you can choose
from for electric vehicles.
It's not just Tesla.
Tesla is the most well-known.
Tesla tends to have like thebiggest share in most markets.
They're not the only one.
You have a choice and youshould be exercising that choice
(28:25):
.
I say you like, you have aTesla.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
Nope, I got a Hyundai .
Speaker 1 (28:38):
Yeah, a little stick shift, I love it.
Promise me you'll buy anotherstick shift when the time comes.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
As long as they keep on making them, I'm going to
keep on buying them.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
Hell yeah, that's what I want to hear my sister
got an automatic.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
I uh caught her sell out it's true.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
It's true, she's like I tried to.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
I was like, yeah, but you didn't try hard enough.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
But this card now, I don't care you can always find
the stick shift if you reallywant to.
So before we get into the wherewe go from here, one of the
common arguments I see acrossall of this that I want to just
kind of like cut out is peoplebeing like oh, but they make a
(29:25):
good product.
You know, just like you weresaying, but I thought the left
loves electric vehicles.
We have choices now.
You can pick other things andeven if they make a good product
, maybe you need to not supportthat product.
You can do that Because, look,when russia invaded ukraine
(29:49):
three years ago, you know peoplewere all up in arms like fuck
everything russian, fuck putin.
I don't want anything to dowith russia, russian whatever.
We don't support putin.
Okay, we've got putin.
Putin is the problem here, butwe do still listen to
tchaikovsky.
That's, that's the thing we cando.
And I saw people cutting thatand being like we're not going
(30:10):
to have anything to do with that.
No, no, no, no.
Wrong direction, because here'sthe thing Tchaikovsky died in
1893.
He can't say hateful thingsanymore.
He can't get on Twitter and saygross, nasty things.
If he did say nasty things, weprobably are aware of them and
(30:30):
we can judge him based off ofthat and you can decide if this
is somebody you want to supportor not.
I think we know what he hassaid at this point and we can go
from there and say that, yes,this is somebody whose music we
support.
Thirdly, the man was gay.
We're pretty sure Tchaikovskywas actually gay, which is a
problem in Russia right now.
(30:51):
It's illegal, can't be gay.
We don't like that.
So, if anything, listening toTchaikovsky is giving the middle
finger to Putin, but you knowthat we don't support that.
If you're you're somebody whocares about gay rights, if
you're somebody who cares abouthuman rights, unless you have a
really good reason to you, don'tgo to Russia now.
You can still listen toTchaikovsky.
(31:12):
You can still read Dostoevsky.
These are people who are dead.
They've been dead.
That is Russian culture.
That is okay.
We can have that in our lives.
But we do not support thecurrent toxic administration.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
But we do not support the current toxic
administration, and the onething that that kind of gets to
me is that you hear this all thetime that you know, especially
when you're talking aboutfigures in the past and like,
well, you know, we can't compare, we, we can't judge them off of
our standards today, and it'sjust like these people that own
(31:55):
slaves, like it was prettyobvious that owning humans as a
property like no bueno.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
Yeah, because you know we had a whole group of
people who were like, hey, let'snot do that.
You know, as soon as you havethat dichotomy of like people
who are like woo, of people whowere like, hey, let's not do
that, as soon as you have thatdichotomy of people who are like
woo and people who are like ooh, bad move, don't do that, then
you're like right, so you didhave a choice here.
You did know you could haveknown, you could have opened
your eyes.
In fact, you chose not to.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
So, yes, we are going to judge you for that.
I had this discussion oncebefore, like probably with you
and, I know, like with my sister, a hundred years ago.
Maybe I might have had adifferent view of women just
because of the fact that therewas evidence that women have
(32:48):
smaller brains and therefore,like, their ability to vote and
ability to make choice decisionswere not as good.
But maybe at that time I wouldhave thought differently.
But it did come out that, yes,their brain is smaller, but it's
also because of the fact thattheir brain is a hell of a lot
(33:10):
more organized than a man's.
They don't need that extrabrain room because they're able
to do just as much with whatthey have.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
There's just less ooga booga going on up in there.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
You look at the evidence.
But I mean even, even if youbelieve that you know slavery or
that blacks were less thanhuman.
I look at my dog.
You know like I wouldn't, Iwould never whip her.
I would never, like you know,beat her.
I would never punish.
You know like or or treat herinhumane like that, humane, like
(33:55):
that.
So, even even if you had thatbelief, you still knew better
than to beat a person like that.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
I think that's exactly.
That's a.
It's a really good analogyright there, because we can
judge.
There are some things that wecan't judge people on.
It's like.
This was just.
This was what we thought.
We knew this, this was thescience of the day.
People thought that you couldtake a leech and put it on
somebody and it would.
It would draw out you knowcause.
It looked like it was doingsomething.
We, you know, may have donethis, we may have done that, and
(34:33):
that's what we thought wasnormal.
That's what everyone was on thesame page of.
Like this is this is okay.
Now we know it's's not okay, sowe don't do that anymore.
But it's when you've got thatlike.
Some people are like yeah, youcan totally just like steal
somebody and make them yourproperty and whip them until
they die.
And there were other people whowere like maybe don't.
That's what's like.
All right that you were makinga choice and you found ways to
justify your choice, your badchoice, and I they do deserve
(34:55):
that judgment.
100 yeah absolutely for thosepeople.
Yeah, it's.
I see that come up all the timelike oh, yeah, we were allowed
to even more modern stuff.
Like I see this with comediansall the time that people will,
you know, kind of pull up stufffrom before that they said, you
know like 10, 15 years ago.
Oh, what was her name?
(35:17):
Jenna Marbles.
She's not really a comedian,she was on YouTube.
She was one of the firstYouTubers, kind of of that group
, and she I'm very curious whatexactly happened with it.
She essentially cancelledherself.
She took herself off theinternet because it was right
(35:39):
around the time that people werestarting to like really dig up
old videos of people and findlike terrible things about them.
Like hey, here's a photo of youin blackface.
We've known you can't do thatfor a while yeah you don't get
like oh, that was 10 years ago,yeah, and 50 years ago we knew
that was wrong.
Okay, don't don't.
(36:01):
She took herself out because Ithink it was blackface.
Now I don't remember thespecifics.
She, I think, knew that therewere some photos, videos of her
that were not super great, andso she just quietly stepped off
of YouTube before anybody couldcome for her.
I don't know if there was moreto it than what she kind of
(36:23):
admitted to.
I don't know if she was justsmart enough to be like.
You know, I did some dumb shit.
That may come for me.
I'm going to handle this myself, as opposed to letting somebody
else handle it.
Speaker 2 (36:41):
You know what the thing is.
That that's really kind ofunfortunate is that you know,
like the Doge employees, that isnot even 10 years ago, it's six
months ago, yeah, and like youknow, like the Doge employees,
that is not even 10 years ago,it's six months ago, yeah, and
like you know what People makemistakes, people, people fuck up
, they, you know but to.
(37:02):
But if you, if you fuck up, youneed to show that you
understand, you need to showthat you are, that you are aware
of, to show that you are that,that you are aware of the
mistakes that you made.
And six months is not enoughtime to to really show,
(37:23):
especially something obvious asbeing anti-semitic.
You know it's, it's not like awhoopsie, I totally fucked this
up.
Let me show, like you know,like that I am resentful for the
things I did.
Speaker 1 (37:39):
Let me let me show you how I've changed.
Yeah, yeah, just saying like oh, I'm so sorry, like that, this
came out, the actress from themovie that just came out.
There was like a whole bunch ofoscar controversy around it.
It's the movie about the set inmexico, but like it doesn't
(38:04):
actually have any mexican actorsin it.
Actors, actresses emilia Perez.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
Okay, I don't know that one.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
I only know about it because of the controversy
surrounding it that the mainactress, who is trans, had said
some really hateful things onTwitter at one point back in the
day and people resurfaced themand her response to that was to
kind of like weirdly double downon it and then, I think,
complained that people wereattacking her because she was
trans.
It was like you said somereally hateful things against
(38:38):
islam, that and you have notgone by.
You know you said that.
Surely somewhere in the back ofyour head.
You remember that you have saidnasty things before in public,
because Twitter is public,facebook is public.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
I had a friend of mine in San Diego.
And so he comes up to me and hesays you know, like Chris, you
know like there's some time Ireally need to talk to you about
, and you know this is back in2006.
And you know this is back in2006.
So still kind of you know itwas coming out.
(39:16):
It was still kind of that.
That.
Can I trust him or can I, youknow, do I still need to stay in
?
So you know, he comes up to meand he tells me that he needs to
tell me something.
(39:36):
And I'm like oh you know,thinking in my head, here comes
the gay speech.
Head, here comes the gay speech.
Like you know, do I do I?
That's what I'm assuming hereno, do I act surprised, do I?
I never knew?
Yes, but he tells me he's likeum, you know I, I was actually
born a woman and I was like okay, you know, like you know, he
showed me a picture of when hewas a female and I was like good
(39:57):
choice, good choice.
I didn't say that, yeah, butyeah, you know, we were friends,
we hung out and everything likethat.
And so he comes to my apartmentone time he knocks on my door
and I opened up and he, he wasreally pissed off and I was like
(40:18):
you know, everything okay.
And he's like well, I I gottenor gotten into an argument with
somebody and they, we, we, wegot into each other's face and
then the guy hit me and I'mgoing to sue them for hate crime
.
And I'm like, you know, likedid, what was this about?
(40:42):
Like you being trans or trans orno?
He didn't.
I mean, I didn't say anythinglike that and I was like, like
you can't really say that it wasa hate crime, like yeah, you
know it had nothing to do withthat and and I mean, you don't
come off as trans at all, youknow.
So yeah, yeah, it's.
Speaker 1 (41:06):
This is definitely an episode for another time.
The whole like playing thevictim type thing that people
will do when they are caught inan awkward situation and they
have to find like some reasonand it's like just take
responsibility.
This isn't about this otherthing.
Sometimes it is and that needsto be addressed, and sometimes
(41:28):
you're just being a dick and youneed to accept responsibility
for it To be fair for her, forthis actress, it's not like
there were hundreds of tweetsper day that she had made.
Elon Musk, you can't tell methat.
You just like made a hateful.
(41:51):
You had a hateful thought, putthat hateful thought on the
internet, you typed it out, hitsend and then that thought has
never crossed your brain again.
That you're not aware that youhave these ideas inside.
No, we just completely forgotabout it.
It was a, it was a singularthought, and the rest of them
(42:11):
are all good and perfect.
Also, why did nobody scrub yourTwitter account?
Why, in 2025, have we notcompletely scrubbed our Twitter
accounts?
So where do you see us goingfrom here?
Speaker 2 (42:36):
I, I, I.
I think the big thing is itkind of falls in line with what
we've kind of talked aboutbefore of like jordan pearson
and and Andrew Tate and peoplelike that, where if you're
giving them attention, you'resaying that it's okay, that just
(43:01):
as well as with Andrew Tate,that, okay, you know what.
He talks about Jesus and hetalks about God.
He talks about jesus and hetalks about god and he is very
big into his religion.
Yeah, cool.
But along with that packageyou're also getting somebody who
(43:22):
discriminates against women,has physically assaulted women,
who has views them as now sexobjects, use them as sex objects
uh, as of now is being objectsUse them as sex objects.
As of now is being.
Where is he at the moment?
Oh God.
Speaker 1 (43:38):
I try to avoid anything to do with him.
Speaker 2 (43:43):
Well, what's the word above?
Accused but not yet tried.
So there's accusations of sextrafficking.
So I mean, you're getting allthat with the package.
And same thing with JK Rowling,where, yeah, she came out with
(44:06):
this awesome series, she was anadvocate for gay rights, but
also in that package you're alsogetting somebody who is
transphobic.
Yeah, so it's.
You know, there there arecertain things for you know, and
it's a very hard line.
(44:27):
Uh, where, what is the a hardline between being a dick and
just being like, okay, you'redisgusting and you really have
to kind of figure out where yourvalues are.
Speaker 1 (44:43):
I think that's what it comes down to is you have to
figure out your own valuesbefore you go after these people
.
Because if you want to sit hereand say I hate trans people,
then you can have JK Rowlingyour own values before you go
after these people.
Because if you want to sit hereand say I hate trans people,
then you can have JK Rowlingthat fits within your values and
you're allowed to do that.
I don't want to necessarily beyour friend, that's my choice,
(45:07):
but you were allowed to say I'mokay with this.
But you cannot pick and choose.
When people's beliefs andactions have effects beyond just
themselves, you don't get topick and choose and be like ah,
I don't like this part of them,but I'm going to support all
this other stuff.
(45:27):
No, because that part of themstill exists.
That part of them exists on adaily basis.
Speaker 2 (45:43):
All this other stuff?
No, because that part of themstill exists, that part of them
exists on a daily basis.
Speaker 1 (45:45):
Jk Rowling continues to say hateful things against
trans people.
Elon Musk continues to be ElonMusk.
Not a fan of his in.
He supports the right.
I'm a good Christian.
You don't get to hold Elon Muskup and say, as a Christian, for
someone whom Christianity isvery important I raised my
family by the Bible, I supportElon Musk.
Elon Musk is not supportingyour ideals.
In that sense, you don't get tojust ignore that part.
(46:07):
That is part of who he is.
If you're okay with him having14 kids with four different
women, fine, you're allowed to.
But you don't get to be like,oh, but he's also a Christian
and that's why I support him.
What?
No, no, no, no.
I want us to do a better job ofA obviously figuring out our
(46:27):
values and putting that hardline down and being like you
know what.
You and I have some differencesin opinion, and that's okay.
We don't have to agree oneverything, but you know, up
until this point I'm okay withit and you pass this point.
And now that is offensive to.
And I'm going to go to HarryPotter world and I've got my
(46:54):
house in my bio and I'm activelyconsuming new Harry Potter
merchandise.
I am actively going out andbuying a Tesla.
Despite being morally againsteverything that Elon Musk does.
I'm going to go buy a Tesla.
You can't buy another electriccar.
(47:15):
No, you have to put your moneywhere your mouth is, and that is
where change will happen is ifthere is a big enough push of
people being like we don't likeNeil Gaiman.
We're upset about theseallegations.
And enough has come out thatwe're like this is true, you
really did horrifically rapethese women.
We're upset about theseallegations.
And enough has come out thatwe're like this is true, you
really did horrifically rapethese women.
You know, I'm not going to buyyour stuff.
(47:37):
I'm not going to watch anythingthat you were involved in
producing.
That has an effect that teachespeople that this is not okay
behavior.
But as long as you continue tosit there and consume it, they
will continue to produce it.
Johnny Depp will continue tomake movies because there are
enough people like yeah, I knowhe that Amber Heard trial was
(47:59):
crazy man, but that she's also abitch.
Yes, she's a bitch.
Maybe I don't know, but we knowthat he's also crazy too.
Why would you continue tosupport that?
You can say I'm not going towatch anything that she's in.
But if you're going to do that,you need to do the same thing
for Johnny Depp.
You have to boycott thesepeople Need people to understand
(48:22):
you can't ethically consume it.
Speaker 2 (48:26):
It's you know.
I think that the problem isthat people say it's too hard.
Speaker 1 (48:33):
You just don't want to put the effort in, just admit
it.
Speaker 2 (48:35):
And that's the thing, Like okay, I don't know, though
I mean it's, I'm against, I'magainst child labor, but I still
have an iPhone.
Speaker 1 (48:48):
It is true.
There are certain cases whereit's it's really hard to
completely cut yourself off fromsome things.
As you just said, there's that.
I know that there are actualpeople who are like I don't like
Walmart, like Walmart hasdestroyed my small town
community, but Walmart is nowthe only place I can shop.
Walmart is the only place I canafford.
(49:10):
I am not going to be mad at youfor doing that.
I'm not going to be mad at you,for you know, looking at me
like I don't, I truly don't haveanother option.
I have done it In many cases,though, there is another option.
If you sit there and you're likeI hate Amazon, so, so, so much,
why?
(49:30):
Why do I see Prime boxesoutside your door?
You can cut down on that.
You may not be able tocompletely disengage from Amazon
, because Amazon is one of thosethat people kind of forget this
.
There's Amazon, the store whereyou buy all your crap, and then
there's the Amazon web service,which is hosting, like the
(49:51):
cloud, which is hosting so muchstuff.
So so many people, so manycompanies are paying Amazon to
host their things there that youuse on a daily basis.
That's a lot harder to cutyourself out from, but could you
decrease your usage of thosewebsites?
Yes, you know you have aniPhone.
(50:11):
Decrease your usage of thosewebsites.
Yes, you have an iPhone.
Child labor probably, let's behonest.
So maybe you just don't buy thenewest iPhone.
Maybe you make your phone lastas long as possible so that you
don't have to keep buying newthings.
I think there's always a waythat you can at least do
something.
You say like I don't like thisand I truly don't have another
(50:32):
option.
I cannot completely cut outchild labor from all these
things.
I cannot completely cut outAmazon, but I am doing I'm
actively doing my best todecrease my reliance on it and
decrease the amount of money Igive these people, while also
not going and living in a shackin the middle of the woods.
Speaker 2 (50:53):
I don't know it's.
I think it's.
It's a lot more complicatedthan that, because so, like
Guinness I found out, is I wouldsay like they're 90% liberal in
the, in the, the, the thingsthat they support, but their
(51:14):
parent company is kind of like adifferent story.
It's just kind of like okay, sowhere do I draw the line on
this?
Speaker 1 (51:23):
I think that's a personal thing for everybody.
Everybody has to look at it.
There is no one answer thatsays you draw it here.
I think everybody needs to, ontheir own, do their research and
look into it and be like howmuch am I going to tolerate?
Because, yes, you have acompany like Ben and Jerry's
that likes to put on this imageof we're super pro social
(51:43):
justice and all of that.
The parent company not really.
That's the case for a lot ofcompanies.
People just they're not awarethat, for instance, Kroger, the
(52:04):
grocery store chain, is morethan just Kroger.
Kroger has, like, tons of othercompanies have something
against Kroger.
You may not know.
Again, you need to educateyourself and you need to
personally decide how big of anissue is this for you, Like, how
much of a problem do you havewith this thing?
Because you may look, forinstance, you may look at Johnny
Depp and you say, yeah, it'spretty bad, but also, in the
(52:31):
grand scheme of things, thereare far worse people.
You know she was also crazy,whatever, and so I'm not going
to deprive myself of Johnny Deppmovies.
Okay, fine, fine, you know youmay look at Amazon and say I
think it's a really shit companybut I need to use them to buy
(52:54):
these things for my business.
I have no other option.
I've looked, I can't find it,so I'm going to keep using
Amazon to buy stuff.
But I think every little changeyou can make it adds up.
I'm sure you've seen.
Right now Target has been hitbig time because of DEI.
Have you seen that?
Yeah, I'm sure you've seen.
(53:14):
Right now Target has been hitbig time because of DEI.
Have you seen that?
That's a classic example.
People are upset that Targetcut their DEI initiative because
that was something that Targethad really pushed for a while
and so they are boycottingTarget.
That has an effect.
You don't have to completely cutTarget out.
Cut target out.
But if your thing used to be oh, I go on Saturdays, I go get my
(53:35):
little Starbies drink and I goto target and I do some shopping
, that's my like me time.
If you do that every Saturdayand you want to make a
difference, maybe you go everyother Saturday.
You cut out, cut it by half.
Well, you only go once a monthand you go someplace else the
other Saturdays, that has aneffect.
All of that has an effect.
You can't tell.
(53:56):
I'm going to completely get ridof it.
I'm going to completely.
I'm never going to drinkGuinness again because of this.
Can I find something else thatat the very least, I decrease my
dependence, my need, my like,obsession with this one thing as
a way of showing my displeasure?
Speaker 2 (54:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (54:13):
On that note, where would you put idolizing
potentially bad people on ourscale?
Oh, toxicity, would you saythat this is a green potato will
make you sick if you eat it,but just scrape off that part
and you'll be fine.
Is this a death cap mushroom,50-50 chance of death or coma,
(54:33):
even when cooked?
Or is this a delicious butdeadly last snack of antifreeze?
Speaker 2 (54:40):
Hmm, I'm debating between high death cap and jello
with sprinkles of antifreeze.
Speaker 1 (54:56):
We like kind of splatted, some on top.
Speaker 2 (55:02):
Because the thing is, as long as you, as long as
you're even if you don't agreewith the things that they're
saying or the things thatthey're doing that again, the
moment that you like their pageor that you support their movie,
you're saying this behaviormight be bad, but not bad enough
(55:27):
.
Mm-hmm, but not bad enough.
I would actually have to saymaybe, yeah.
Speaker 1 (55:41):
I'd have to say probably like Jello was
anti-free sprinkled.
I love our tier system.
(56:04):
Six green potatoes to continue.
You are saying this is okaybehavior and when you do that,
you can't be upset when thingspotentially snowball.
Because if you have a kid andthe kid punches you in the balls
because they're upset aboutsomething and you don't say
(56:26):
anything, you roll with thepunches that kid is going to
learn that this is an okay thingto do and they are going to
continue doing it.
And if you suddenly, a yearfrom now, we're like dang, I
really hate being punched in theball by my child it's going to
be a lot harder to stop them atthis point because they have
(56:46):
learned that this is okaybehavior and there are no
consequences, nothing happens.
And so you may have what isinitially not that big of a deal
.
You know, something bad happens.
You have an actor who doessomething dumb, a writer who
does something dumb, somebodywho says something you don't
(57:07):
agree with.
But you have to know your ownmorals and be like that has
crossed the line and I'm goingto say something and I'm going
to immediately kind of put myfoot down and be like we're not.
We're not doing that anymore,because it has the potential to
get so, so, so much worse ifleft to continue.
So I would agree that this islime Jell-O that I don't know.
(57:30):
Maybe the spoon that like mixedup the jello had been an
antifreeze or something likethat.
I actually don't know how muchantifreeze you would need to put
in lime jello to kill somebody,and that's not something I want
on my Google search history, soI will not be finding out that
information.
If you would like to look upthat information and let us know
(57:50):
, if you would like to look upthat information and let us know
, you can write to us at toxic,at awesome life skillscom.
You can also find us on socialmedia, on Facebook, on Instagram
and, technically, blue sky.
I have not gotten around toopening it back up after I
created it, but we are there andwith that, that has been the
(58:12):
toxic cooking show.
We'll see you guys next week.
Bye, bye.
Hi and welcome to the Toxic Cooking Show, where we
break down toxic people to theirsimplest ingredients.
I'm your host for this week,Lindsay McLeclean, and with me
is my fantastic co-hostchristopher patchett lcsw I have
to say credit where credit isdue.
I did not come up with the namefor this episode.
(00:37):
I wish I did.
I wish I thought of cool stufflike that.
I actually stole this fromsomebody on the internet.
I don't remember her exactusername because she has a
couple different pages.
Have you ever seen the sadbeige lady?
Speaker 2 (00:57):
No.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
Sad beige whatever for sad beige children, and she
impersonates Werner Herzog.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
No.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
I guess the algorithm shows us very different things.
She, she is fantastic.
I love her.
She was the one who firstquoted the name, the the no gods
, no heroes, no idols inreference to one of the things
I'm going to be talking about,one of the examples and I
(01:25):
believe that was the name of anarticle about this, because I
haven't seen it anywhere else,but it was too beautiful to just
leave there.
I want to expand it.
So I'm starting off with aquestion, though, for you when
you were growing up, did youhave a hero or an idol?
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Kurt Cobain.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
The way that just rolled off your tongue, I would
say he still sort of is, maybe.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
I would say my top two favorite bands of all time
is Nirvana and Flag of Mali.
Nirvana, I would say growing up, that was my hero idol.
Whatever as an adult, I wouldsay Flag up, that was my hero
idol.
Whatever as an adult, I wouldsay Flog of Molly.
So yeah, you know the wholestory, how I met them and
everything.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Yeah, so yeah, well, and our beloved EP is named
Molly, and it's not for the drug.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
Oh my God, I can't tell you how many times people
thought that ew, I'm like, I'mnot gonna name my dog after a
drug like what is wrong with youpeople?
Be dumb so my last dog's namewas sid vicious and somebody
actually asked me is he namedafter the wrestler or the drug
(02:43):
addict?
I was like the drug addict fair?
Speaker 1 (02:49):
true, in that case it would be.
If they knew that, then maybeasking about molly's name is a
valid question.
So I have to say I never had ahero or an idol or whatever
growing up.
Like I hated that question atschool, I don't know.
There was never just anyone,and there still isn't anyone
(03:10):
that I would name and be likethis person, like I think
they're so, so, so cool and Ireally look up to them.
And, to be honest, now in 2025,I'm really glad for that.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
So no, taylor Swift.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
No, I know, Shocking, right, Hmm, but yeah, we, it
feels like on a daily, weeklybasis at least, are finding out
horrific facts about people intoday's world.
It's like every time you lookat the news, it's just this
(03:50):
person you thought was reallycool, they're actually a
humongous asshole.
You're like okay, and then thenext week it's the same thing
and the same thing, and the samething.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
We're constantly finding out this information
about people and you're probablygonna slap me because I'm I'm
guessing that these are gonna benames that you're bringing up
is ellen and lizzo actuallythose are not two on my list,
but we can definitely talk aboutthem because they they are also
.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
The classic example of people that we used to
idolize is like wow, this issomebody who's like amazing and
cool and wonderful.
And then the information comesout and you're like whoopsies
let me not support you anymore,because I've noticed that there
are two general types of waysthat this happens.
(04:45):
One of them is like the slow-mo,roll-down hill-to-hill type
person, where it starts off withone problematic thing but it's
not too problematic, everything,I believe, for me to support
(05:07):
you, okay.
And then there's another one,and another one, and another one
, and it takes a little while,but suddenly you look around and
you're like, oh, we're in hell,we've made it there and I just
didn't realize and I havecontinued to support this person
.
And now what do you do?
And then there are people whoit's just like the bombshell
allegations where, like all of asudden, out of nowhere,
(05:28):
something drops and it just likecompletely shatters your view
of them.
And there can be some overlap.
Looking at you, p Diddy, youknow where there are some
allegations that are goingaround.
It's not like completely likeoh really.
But then all the informationthat comes out and you're like
how many bottles of baby oil youknow?
(05:51):
And never in case you havesomebody who went from being
like beloved to reviled, justlike complete 180 for many
people anyway.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Tell me you shut up, if this is one of the things
that you can bring up, but thething that really gets me,
though, is that they take 180,but people forget.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
So, like mel gibson, yes, mel Gibson, yes, yeah, yeah
, there are a lot of cases.
There were so many cases tochoose from here.
When I sat down to do this, Iwas almost overwhelmed by like
but who do I pick?
It's not one.
That's really like I needanother example.
It's like who's the bestexample, who's the worst example
(06:41):
?
But yeah, there are a lot andpeople do forget about it, which
is why we need to be talkingabout this, because if you have
a hero or idol and they do shitstuff, you should rethink that
relationship.
We do not forget.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
Yeah, unfortunately, kevin Spacey is another one that
he's starting to come back into.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
No, no, how it was only 10 years ago.
Well, there are certain thingsyou can come back from and there
are certain things that youdon't come back from, and I need
us to understand the difference, because all the stuff that I'm
going to be talking about hereis stuff that, like you, you
really can't come back from, butpeople are trying to, people
(07:26):
are trying to avoid because thisis their hero or idol.
So you ready to hear someexamples?
yes, let's hear them so one ofthe first people I thought about
with this was Miss Moldy Wall,herself JK Rowling.
Oh God, yeah, you and I bothknow people who have Harry
(07:54):
Potter tattoos.
That's a thing.
That was such a thing back inthe day and I know, in case it
wasn't clear yes, I'm amillennial.
That's why I know somebody witha Harry Potter tattoo.
So I also worked at a camp thathad a full week of Harry Potter
.
That was the theme.
We played Quidditch, we had atask in the lake, we had this
(08:20):
whole night theme and the kidswere dressed up and it was like
Harry Potter to the max.
I grew up reading those books.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
I made you read those books wait, no, no, no, no,
wait, wait, wait, wait oh, youchose completely on free will
yes, yes, I, I caved in.
I.
So you, you were trying toforce me to read the books,
(08:45):
watch the movie, anything.
And I was like nope, nope, nope, nope, nope.
And I think it was somebodythat I worked with who's my age
and she was saying about likeHarry Potter.
I was like fine, fine.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
I'll fucking read it.
But yeah, see, you got on theharry potter train, you know I I
still know my house like that'sis a huge thing, especially for
millennials like I.
Get that you were probably likejust outside that age range
yeah, the first book came outwhen I was 17 yeah, and I was
(09:24):
god.
I sometimes forget because nowthat we're adults the age
difference like isn't so bad,but I remember my mom reading
the first and second books to mysister and me, like my sister
was old enough to read them andthe books had been a present for
her, I think for my grandmother, but I was still like just
young enough that it was likeyou get to have this, you know,
read to you chapter by chapterand I was like fuck yeah I love
(09:46):
this but there was a time when,like she was jk rowling, was
like super cool, like every oneof her tweets or like every
other tweet was something likedumbledore is gay.
People were like, yes, queenslay, because she felt like she
cared and like she was rollingwith the times.
Do you remember that?
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Yeah, yeah, okay, I totally remember.
Well, I mean, it wasn't eventhat long ago.
It was what?
Maybe 2018, 19?
Well, no, it was just about thetime that I started reading
that she went.
So it was 2020, 2021.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
time that I started reading that she went.
So it was 2020, 2021.
Yeah, 2018, 2019 is rightaround the time when she
suddenly made a little likeu-turn and started saying some
real offensive shit.
Yeah, she has.
In case you've been livingunder a rock, she has outed
herself as a turf.
So turf stands for trans,exclusionary, radical feminist.
That is a group of women whoare feminists and super
(10:49):
pro-women.
As long as you were born, awoman Can't be trans.
If you were trans, you were notactually a woman.
That is a man and men can getthe fuck out of here.
So there was a special littlegroup of people and you know,
(11:10):
she kind of said some things.
People were like, oh my god,and then she just doubled down.
But she really doubled down onthis and she continues to to
this day to tweet reallyhorrific things and really nasty
things about trans women andbeing very exclusionary over who
can be a woman and who we'reallowing in.
That's if, if you support gayrights, you can't like JK
(11:33):
Rowling.
I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
Yeah, it's funny because I remember when it first
came out and she doubled downon it and things like that, and
I was like okay, like okay, thisis gonna you know, this can
roll over, that eventually maybeshe might open up or whatever,
or or at least just shut thefuck up about it, right?
Speaker 1 (11:55):
and now she's just still she's still out there
every day maybe not every day,but it is a constant.
She continues to repeat thisviewpoint, which is why I'm like
you can't ignore this.
Yes, she has done some reallygreat things.
She continues to do greatthings.
She continues to give money to,for instance, you know, help
(12:15):
ukraine, um, to help childrenthere.
There's a lot of good stuffthat she does, but then she also
goes and gets on twitter andsays stuff like, does stuff like
.
She'll post a list of transwomen and say, and I quote, they
are men.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
Every last one of them but the thing is, with her,
she she's kind of excludingherself because she's extremely
pro-gay, so she's cutting outthe the, the right, and then's
extremely anti-trans, which nowshe's cutting out the left.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
Yeah, she really seems to be trying to shoot
herself in both feet, because Ialso remember the panic the
satanic panic around HarryPotter and witchcraft and the
devil, so it's not like theright is going to be like we
love you, now we're going toread your books.
Those people still don't likeharry potter.
They never will, and now youhave cut out the whole group of
(13:13):
people who absolutely like,adored you.
So many of them are like.
It's not enough, though, andwe'll talk about this at the end
, but, like I, I would love.
I would love people to puttheir money where their mouth is
, especially for her I I lovethe fact that the actors of
harry potter have come outagainst yeah, and she's.
(13:35):
She's attacked them on twitterfor that yeah because of course
she did.
Yeah, don't worry, we've gotmore.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
Oh boy.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
Another fantastic example of people we should not
be supporting if we have morals.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
Johnny Depp.
Okay, I might be missingsomething, but go ahead.
Have you been living under arock, sir?
So I do know that he goes forthe younger women I don't know.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
That's orlando bloom.
Is orlando bloom not orlandobloom, um or no?
He had matt damon.
It's not johnny depp.
You're you're confusing himwith somebody else.
I can see the man, the, the onewho has the meme of the glass,
being like Leonardo DiCaprio.
There we go.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
But, Johnny Depp, it was that whole trial thing right
.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
There's more.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
Okay, so all I know about is the trial.
I haven't heard anything elseoutside of that, but the trial.
She had problems too.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
That kind of made it seem like, okay, maybe he didn't
go to the extent that she wassaying.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
So, to be fair, his PR team ran props to them, team
ran props to them.
They completely dominated thatnarrative and were able to kind
of swing it to be like, wow,look at this crazy bitch and I'm
not saying that she'scompletely innocent in this,
(15:19):
because there were just enoughthings about that trial that
you're like who pooped in whosebed now?
Weird stuff like that.
You're like, okay, you've gotsome problems too.
But his PR team did a wholenumber on that and when you look
back at the information thatwas being put out people who
were live streaming and tweetingand vlogging about it you'll
(15:40):
notice that it is incredibly,incredibly one-sided.
Like these people were likethere when people were
testifying and Johnny Depp hadwitnesses Magically, no one's
talking about when Amber Heardwas up, that we just we're not
going to even look at that.
Like that's a problem Gotta.
Look at both sides of things.
(16:01):
Both people can be crazy.
Look at both sides of things.
Both people can be crazy.
But he, he has a history ofverbal abuse, domestic abuse
there's, you know, substanceabuse and alcoholism are in
there.
Obviously that's more of like apersonal thing.
He has been sued for hittingand verbally assaulting film
crew members before.
There have been other previousissues again with, like, the
(16:23):
domestic abuse and a lot of itfor him.
Until this has been kind oflike rumors or you know weird
divorces or or things like that,but never like publicly
exploded.
But certainly if you look atthe amber heard johnny depp
trial, he did some prettyhorrific things to her too.
It's like, uh, can we stillwatch pirates of the caribbean
(16:51):
knowing that this is somebodywho domestic like abuses their
partner?
Is that what you want to dowith your life and your money?
hmm, it's yeah, yeah yeah, he'sone of the classic ones I see of
people being like, oh, but Ireally like his movies.
I really like, you know, edwardScissorhands.
I get it.
(17:12):
I really like, again, piratesof the Caribbean High school.
That was a big thing for me.
Again, this is somebody who hasa history of abuse against
other people.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
I love the Gen X, millenn, uh, millennial, uh
timeline there, or the the cut,because I'd like I don't give a
flying fuck about pirate,pirates, but I'm like, oh my god
, you know, like fucking edwardssands, that was a fucking
awesome movie I know it's, it'sa really hard divide, like we
(17:45):
started that and we're likeeverything.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
After that, that he did like, oh my god, amazing,
and you guys, it was kind oflike up until that point and
after I was like, who is thisman?
Yeah, yeah, he's, he'sproblematic.
There you go, though.
Uh, people still trying tocover it up.
Uh, and speaking about men whohave been trying to cover stuff
up, this is the guy who I gotthe title, the episode name, in
(18:10):
reference to Neil Gaiman.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
American.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
God.
I have recommended his writingto you before.
He is an author.
He wrote American Gods, goodOmens, which also has the TV
series.
He co-wrote that with TerryPratchett.
He's an incredibly well-knownfantasy writer.
Like I love his stuff, I'll behonest.
(18:35):
Like American Gods is fantastic.
I have reread it multiple times.
So to preface this, not toolong ago I was at a dinner party
with some friends and somethingcame up about the podcast and I
told them the name and sopeople were looking up and one
person was like everything'srated e for explicit.
(18:55):
What are you guys talking about?
I was like no, no, no, no, wejust say fuck a lot.
That's why that's there it's notlike the, the actual topics
necessarily, it's just, we curseoh my god, it actually um.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
I don't know why, but a couple days ago I thought
about this.
There is one episode that we donot curse is it the one with my
mom?
Speaker 1 (19:21):
Yeah, it's trying so hard.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
Every other episode.
Fuck yeah, fuck this, fuck that, fuck them your mom.
Well, yes, yes, I do agree,quite, quite happily.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
Oh, yes, absolutely yeah, I was like that.
That's why we have that.
So, bearing that in mind, therape allegations against Neil
Gaiman are not something that Iwill be talking about on here.
I'll say fuck all day.
What I read was incrediblygraphic, like it wasn't just
(20:00):
rape, it was real bizarre stuff.
Yeah, some of these allegationsthis one is ongoing.
To be fair, he has justrecently produced some text
messages with one of the womeninvolved, looking like it might
be something more consensual.
That was happening.
I cannot comment on that.
(20:22):
I did not see the originalstuff.
I did not see those textmessages.
This is still happening.
Certainly like when theseallegations hit the news, people
came down pretty hard, at leastinitially, and like TV shows
got canceled and continuing workon Good Omens got canceled.
How have you not seen that orread it?
I'm so disappointed in youAlthough don't do it now, see,
(20:44):
it's too late you missed youropportunity.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
I mean, I guess this is not a name that I really
register.
I mean, I'm sure you just kindof like, hey, check this out,
and I'm like, yeah, whatever.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
Yeah, it probably was just said in passing.
We were having a discussionabout books or whatever, and I
was like, oh my God, you've gotto read this one.
It wouldn't have been somethingthat I brought up like 18 times
in a row read this one.
It wouldn't have been somethingthat I brought up like 18 times
in a row, like you have to readAmerican gods, you have to, you
have to, you have to, but nowyou're not allowed to.
So and a last person for you,before we discuss all these
(21:22):
horrific people, and my heartgoes out to you as I say this I
have a feeling, yep musk okay,okay, I.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
I thought that you were gonna say somebody else,
but oh, yes, yes, my heart, ohgod.
How did I not see that?
Speaker 1 (21:42):
right, I was waiting for you to be like.
No, yeah, even before he wentlike full dark maga or whatever
it is that he was calling it, hedoes, at this point now, have
14 children with four differentwomen.
There's, there was just a 14ththat was born like how long ago
(22:05):
really recently, because 13 wasthe um weird fucked up name no,
no, no, no.
That that one's way back there.
Now he's got more.
He's got a whole bunch more.
Yeah, he's just continuedhaving them.
No 13 was with the, I think, theinfluencer, who basically
(22:27):
people are giving her shit forthis and again, this is one.
That's where you look at thetwo of them and you're like I
don't know what's true, but bothof you were fucked up here.
She made it clear, like foryears that she wanted to have
his kid and ashley st claire,and then she supposedly had his
kid and now he won't pay childsupport.
She, she got on twitter to belike, won't you take care of
(22:48):
your baby?
And yeah, I think I'm prettysure that's number 13.
Yeah, even before that, evenwhen he had a normal number of
children, we've seen him gettinghigh during important meetings
for years.
(23:11):
That's been a question thatmaybe we should be thinking
about.
We're like, wow, here's thisperson who's really pushing the
limits with SpaceX, who's doinga lot of work on self-driving
cars, who's doing a lot of workon electric vehicles and
charging stations and stuff likethat.
A lot of people supported himoriginally because of that and
(23:32):
they overlooked some of theseissues, some of the quirks, and
if it had just been like, oh, hegets high during whatever call
it was.
It was some important businesscall.
I just remember he wasapparently puffing away on weed
or something.
If that was the extent of it, wewould not be talking about him
right now.
That's the type of hey, you'reallowed to have your opinion,
(23:55):
I'm allowed to have mine, and wecan still be okay.
We can do that.
When you buy Twitter and thenlet all of the white
supremacists who were banned onit back on, that's a problem.
Uh, you refusing to acknowledgethat your daughter is trans?
(24:15):
That's a problem.
You routinely promotingconspiracy theories like and not
just any conspiracy theories,but like the wildest conspiracy
theories that's a problem, andthat has been going on for years
.
That is not a new development.
He's one of those like slowburn type ones, but it has been
(24:38):
pretty evident for a while now.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
I think that the man's weird, at the very least I
don't know if it was so much aslow burn, because it wasn't
that long ago that.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
He started during COVID, you can see a change
where all of a sudden he waslike no, we shouldn't be having
the lockdowns and stuff likethat.
People still kind of were like,oh, but he gave Starlink to
Ukraine.
He still kind of had some someflips that were going on in
there.
But for me, if you're going tosit there and be like you know,
(25:13):
this is not.
I want to be able to go where Iwant to go.
I don't want to have to justsit at home to protect myself
for the woke virus that tells methat you're headed the wrong
way I mean, it's that like okay.
I would say, if it was just that, then that would be like okay,
(25:34):
like there's a red flag there,but right and this is why I say
that he's that slow burn,because there are red flags and
when you look back hindsightyou're like we should have seen
this coming a while ago, likemore people should have seen it
coming because the red flagswere big enough that it's like
all right, here's a red flag andthen here's some like beige to
(25:57):
greeny flags and here's a redflag, some beige and green flags
.
But we really should havecalled on soon.
It's like the red flags keepcoming.
They keep happening with likesome regularity that this is
maybe not somebody that weshould be super idolizing.
This is somebody who's not realstable and is prone to saying
(26:21):
just wild ass shit.
Maybe not somebody who I want tohold up as my hero.
Or, if you are choosing to holdhim up as your hero, I have
some questions for you.
You can't find anybody elsewho's doing good work on
self-driving cars.
You can't find anyone elsewho's doing work with spaceships
, space shuttles, whateverthey're called.
(26:43):
There's no one, no one else.
It's got to be this guy with 14kids, with four different women
.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
You know, with everything going on with Tesla,
one of the biggest things I loveseeing is where people are like
.
Oh you know, I thought that theleft was all about like cars,
and now all of a sudden you'rebringing.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
Oh, the empathy thing , yeah, and he was like the
biggest problem in the worldright now is too much empathy,
and then he literally gets onfox news like I thought the left
was the party of empathy it'snot so much.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
I put it like you know, like where people are,
like oh you know, like the leftwas all about electric cars and
now, all of a sudden, it's likeyou guys do realize that other
companies make electric cars,like what you know, just like
you guys uh going out there, uhshooting at bud lights.
(27:40):
There are other beers to choosefrom you know that analogy
right there.
You know, yeah, we might nowhate Tesla because of the man
who owns it, but all the otherfucking car manufacturers are
(28:02):
now making electric cars.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
Yeah, there are a lot of them out there.
Now there's a pretty big choicelike range that you can choose
from for electric vehicles.
It's not just Tesla.
Tesla is the most well-known.
Tesla tends to have like thebiggest share in most markets.
They're not the only one.
You have a choice and youshould be exercising that choice
(28:25):
.
I say you like, you have aTesla.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
Nope, I got a Hyundai .
Speaker 1 (28:38):
Yeah, a little stick shift, I love it.
Promise me you'll buy anotherstick shift when the time comes.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
As long as they keep on making them, I'm going to
keep on buying them.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
Hell yeah, that's what I want to hear my sister
got an automatic.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
I uh caught her sell out it's true.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
It's true, she's like I tried to.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
I was like, yeah, but you didn't try hard enough.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
But this card now, I don't care you can always find
the stick shift if you reallywant to.
So before we get into the wherewe go from here, one of the
common arguments I see acrossall of this that I want to just
kind of like cut out is peoplebeing like oh, but they make a
(29:25):
good product.
You know, just like you weresaying, but I thought the left
loves electric vehicles.
We have choices now.
You can pick other things andeven if they make a good product
, maybe you need to not supportthat product.
You can do that Because, look,when russia invaded ukraine
(29:49):
three years ago, you know peoplewere all up in arms like fuck
everything russian, fuck putin.
I don't want anything to dowith russia, russian whatever.
We don't support putin.
Okay, we've got putin.
Putin is the problem here, butwe do still listen to
tchaikovsky.
That's, that's the thing we cando.
And I saw people cutting thatand being like we're not going
(30:10):
to have anything to do with that.
No, no, no, no.
Wrong direction, because here'sthe thing Tchaikovsky died in
1893.
He can't say hateful thingsanymore.
He can't get on Twitter and saygross, nasty things.
If he did say nasty things, weprobably are aware of them and
(30:30):
we can judge him based off ofthat and you can decide if this
is somebody you want to supportor not.
I think we know what he hassaid at this point and we can go
from there and say that, yes,this is somebody whose music we
support.
Thirdly, the man was gay.
We're pretty sure Tchaikovskywas actually gay, which is a
problem in Russia right now.
(30:51):
It's illegal, can't be gay.
We don't like that.
So, if anything, listening toTchaikovsky is giving the middle
finger to Putin, but you knowthat we don't support that.
If you're you're somebody whocares about gay rights, if
you're somebody who cares abouthuman rights, unless you have a
really good reason to you, don'tgo to Russia now.
You can still listen toTchaikovsky.
(31:12):
You can still read Dostoevsky.
These are people who are dead.
They've been dead.
That is Russian culture.
That is okay.
We can have that in our lives.
But we do not support thecurrent toxic administration.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
But we do not support the current toxic
administration, and the onething that that kind of gets to
me is that you hear this all thetime that you know, especially
when you're talking aboutfigures in the past and like,
well, you know, we can't compare, we, we can't judge them off of
our standards today, and it'sjust like these people that own
(31:55):
slaves, like it was prettyobvious that owning humans as a
property like no bueno.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
Yeah, because you know we had a whole group of
people who were like, hey, let'snot do that.
You know, as soon as you havethat dichotomy of like people
who are like woo, of people whowere like, hey, let's not do
that, as soon as you have thatdichotomy of people who are like
woo and people who are like ooh, bad move, don't do that, then
you're like right, so you didhave a choice here.
You did know you could haveknown, you could have opened
your eyes.
In fact, you chose not to.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
So, yes, we are going to judge you for that.
I had this discussion oncebefore, like probably with you
and, I know, like with my sister, a hundred years ago.
Maybe I might have had adifferent view of women just
because of the fact that therewas evidence that women have
(32:48):
smaller brains and therefore,like, their ability to vote and
ability to make choice decisionswere not as good.
But maybe at that time I wouldhave thought differently.
But it did come out that, yes,their brain is smaller, but it's
also because of the fact thattheir brain is a hell of a lot
(33:10):
more organized than a man's.
They don't need that extrabrain room because they're able
to do just as much with whatthey have.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
There's just less ooga booga going on up in there.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
You look at the evidence.
But I mean even, even if youbelieve that you know slavery or
that blacks were less thanhuman.
I look at my dog.
You know like I wouldn't, Iwould never whip her.
I would never, like you know,beat her.
I would never punish.
You know like or or treat herinhumane like that, humane, like
(33:55):
that.
So, even even if you had thatbelief, you still knew better
than to beat a person like that.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
I think that's exactly.
That's a.
It's a really good analogyright there, because we can
judge.
There are some things that wecan't judge people on.
It's like.
This was just.
This was what we thought.
We knew this, this was thescience of the day.
People thought that you couldtake a leech and put it on
somebody and it would.
It would draw out you knowcause.
It looked like it was doingsomething.
We, you know, may have donethis, we may have done that, and
(34:33):
that's what we thought wasnormal.
That's what everyone was on thesame page of.
Like this is this is okay.
Now we know it's's not okay, sowe don't do that anymore.
But it's when you've got thatlike.
Some people are like yeah, youcan totally just like steal
somebody and make them yourproperty and whip them until
they die.
And there were other people whowere like maybe don't.
That's what's like.
All right that you were makinga choice and you found ways to
justify your choice, your badchoice, and I they do deserve
(34:55):
that judgment.
100 yeah absolutely for thosepeople.
Yeah, it's.
I see that come up all the timelike oh, yeah, we were allowed
to even more modern stuff.
Like I see this with comediansall the time that people will,
you know, kind of pull up stufffrom before that they said, you
know like 10, 15 years ago.
Oh, what was her name?
(35:17):
Jenna Marbles.
She's not really a comedian,she was on YouTube.
She was one of the firstYouTubers, kind of of that group
, and she I'm very curious whatexactly happened with it.
She essentially cancelledherself.
She took herself off theinternet because it was right
(35:39):
around the time that people werestarting to like really dig up
old videos of people and findlike terrible things about them.
Like hey, here's a photo of youin blackface.
We've known you can't do thatfor a while yeah you don't get
like oh, that was 10 years ago,yeah, and 50 years ago we knew
that was wrong.
Okay, don't don't.
(36:01):
She took herself out because Ithink it was blackface.
Now I don't remember thespecifics.
She, I think, knew that therewere some photos, videos of her
that were not super great, andso she just quietly stepped off
of YouTube before anybody couldcome for her.
I don't know if there was moreto it than what she kind of
(36:23):
admitted to.
I don't know if she was justsmart enough to be like.
You know, I did some dumb shit.
That may come for me.
I'm going to handle this myself, as opposed to letting somebody
else handle it.
Speaker 2 (36:41):
You know what the thing is.
That that's really kind ofunfortunate is that you know,
like the Doge employees, that isnot even 10 years ago, it's six
months ago, yeah, and like youknow, like the Doge employees,
that is not even 10 years ago,it's six months ago, yeah, and
like you know what People makemistakes, people, people fuck up
, they, you know but to.
(37:02):
But if you, if you fuck up, youneed to show that you
understand, you need to showthat you are, that you are aware
of, to show that you are that,that you are aware of the
mistakes that you made.
And six months is not enoughtime to to really show,
(37:23):
especially something obvious asbeing anti-semitic.
You know it's, it's not like awhoopsie, I totally fucked this
up.
Let me show, like you know,like that I am resentful for the
things I did.
Speaker 1 (37:39):
Let me let me show you how I've changed.
Yeah, yeah, just saying like oh, I'm so sorry, like that, this
came out, the actress from themovie that just came out.
There was like a whole bunch ofoscar controversy around it.
It's the movie about the set inmexico, but like it doesn't
(38:04):
actually have any mexican actorsin it.
Actors, actresses emilia Perez.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
Okay, I don't know that one.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
I only know about it because of the controversy
surrounding it that the mainactress, who is trans, had said
some really hateful things onTwitter at one point back in the
day and people resurfaced themand her response to that was to
kind of like weirdly double downon it and then, I think,
complained that people wereattacking her because she was
trans.
It was like you said somereally hateful things against
(38:38):
islam, that and you have notgone by.
You know you said that.
Surely somewhere in the back ofyour head.
You remember that you have saidnasty things before in public,
because Twitter is public,facebook is public.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
I had a friend of mine in San Diego.
And so he comes up to me and hesays you know, like Chris, you
know like there's some time Ireally need to talk to you about
, and you know this is back in2006.
And you know this is back in2006.
So still kind of you know itwas coming out.
(39:16):
It was still kind of that.
That.
Can I trust him or can I, youknow, do I still need to stay in
?
So you know, he comes up to meand he tells me that he needs to
tell me something.
(39:36):
And I'm like oh you know,thinking in my head, here comes
the gay speech.
Head, here comes the gay speech.
Like you know, do I do I?
That's what I'm assuming hereno, do I act surprised, do I?
I never knew?
Yes, but he tells me he's likeum, you know I, I was actually
born a woman and I was like okay, you know, like you know, he
showed me a picture of when hewas a female and I was like good
(39:57):
choice, good choice.
I didn't say that, yeah, butyeah, you know, we were friends,
we hung out and everything likethat.
And so he comes to my apartmentone time he knocks on my door
and I opened up and he, he wasreally pissed off and I was like
(40:18):
you know, everything okay.
And he's like well, I I gottenor gotten into an argument with
somebody and they, we, we, wegot into each other's face and
then the guy hit me and I'mgoing to sue them for hate crime
.
And I'm like, you know, likedid, what was this about?
(40:42):
Like you being trans or trans orno?
He didn't.
I mean, I didn't say anythinglike that and I was like, like
you can't really say that it wasa hate crime, like yeah, you
know it had nothing to do withthat and and I mean, you don't
come off as trans at all, youknow.
So yeah, yeah, it's.
Speaker 1 (41:06):
This is definitely an episode for another time.
The whole like playing thevictim type thing that people
will do when they are caught inan awkward situation and they
have to find like some reasonand it's like just take
responsibility.
This isn't about this otherthing.
Sometimes it is and that needsto be addressed, and sometimes
(41:28):
you're just being a dick and youneed to accept responsibility
for it To be fair for her, forthis actress, it's not like
there were hundreds of tweetsper day that she had made.
Elon Musk, you can't tell methat.
You just like made a hateful.
(41:51):
You had a hateful thought, putthat hateful thought on the
internet, you typed it out, hitsend and then that thought has
never crossed your brain again.
That you're not aware that youhave these ideas inside.
No, we just completely forgotabout it.
It was a, it was a singularthought, and the rest of them
(42:11):
are all good and perfect.
Also, why did nobody scrub yourTwitter account?
Why, in 2025, have we notcompletely scrubbed our Twitter
accounts?
So where do you see us goingfrom here?
Speaker 2 (42:36):
I, I, I.
I think the big thing is itkind of falls in line with what
we've kind of talked aboutbefore of like jordan pearson
and and Andrew Tate and peoplelike that, where if you're
giving them attention, you'resaying that it's okay, that just
(43:01):
as well as with Andrew Tate,that, okay, you know what.
He talks about Jesus and hetalks about God.
He talks about jesus and hetalks about god and he is very
big into his religion.
Yeah, cool.
But along with that packageyou're also getting somebody who
(43:22):
discriminates against women,has physically assaulted women,
who has views them as now sexobjects, use them as sex objects
uh, as of now is being objectsUse them as sex objects.
As of now is being.
Where is he at the moment?
Oh God.
Speaker 1 (43:38):
I try to avoid anything to do with him.
Speaker 2 (43:43):
Well, what's the word above?
Accused but not yet tried.
So there's accusations of sextrafficking.
So I mean, you're getting allthat with the package.
And same thing with JK Rowling,where, yeah, she came out with
(44:06):
this awesome series, she was anadvocate for gay rights, but
also in that package you're alsogetting somebody who is
transphobic.
Yeah, so it's.
You know, there there arecertain things for you know, and
it's a very hard line.
(44:27):
Uh, where, what is the a hardline between being a dick and
just being like, okay, you'redisgusting and you really have
to kind of figure out where yourvalues are.
Speaker 1 (44:43):
I think that's what it comes down to is you have to
figure out your own valuesbefore you go after these people
.
Because if you want to sit hereand say I hate trans people,
then you can have JK Rowlingyour own values before you go
after these people.
Because if you want to sit hereand say I hate trans people,
then you can have JK Rowlingthat fits within your values and
you're allowed to do that.
I don't want to necessarily beyour friend, that's my choice,
(45:07):
but you were allowed to say I'mokay with this.
But you cannot pick and choose.
When people's beliefs andactions have effects beyond just
themselves, you don't get topick and choose and be like ah,
I don't like this part of them,but I'm going to support all
this other stuff.
(45:27):
No, because that part of themstill exists.
That part of them exists on adaily basis.
Speaker 2 (45:43):
All this other stuff?
No, because that part of themstill exists, that part of them
exists on a daily basis.
Speaker 1 (45:45):
Jk Rowling continues to say hateful things against
trans people.
Elon Musk continues to be ElonMusk.
Not a fan of his in.
He supports the right.
I'm a good Christian.
You don't get to hold Elon Muskup and say, as a Christian, for
someone whom Christianity isvery important I raised my
family by the Bible, I supportElon Musk.
Elon Musk is not supportingyour ideals.
In that sense, you don't get tojust ignore that part.
(46:07):
That is part of who he is.
If you're okay with him having14 kids with four different
women, fine, you're allowed to.
But you don't get to be like,oh, but he's also a Christian
and that's why I support him.
What?
No, no, no, no.
I want us to do a better job ofA obviously figuring out our
(46:27):
values and putting that hardline down and being like you
know what.
You and I have some differencesin opinion, and that's okay.
We don't have to agree oneverything, but you know, up
until this point I'm okay withit and you pass this point.
And now that is offensive to.
And I'm going to go to HarryPotter world and I've got my
(46:54):
house in my bio and I'm activelyconsuming new Harry Potter
merchandise.
I am actively going out andbuying a Tesla.
Despite being morally againsteverything that Elon Musk does.
I'm going to go buy a Tesla.
You can't buy another electriccar.
(47:15):
No, you have to put your moneywhere your mouth is, and that is
where change will happen is ifthere is a big enough push of
people being like we don't likeNeil Gaiman.
We're upset about theseallegations.
And enough has come out thatwe're like this is true, you
really did horrifically rapethese women.
We're upset about theseallegations.
And enough has come out thatwe're like this is true, you
really did horrifically rapethese women.
You know, I'm not going to buyyour stuff.
(47:37):
I'm not going to watch anythingthat you were involved in
producing.
That has an effect that teachespeople that this is not okay
behavior.
But as long as you continue tosit there and consume it, they
will continue to produce it.
Johnny Depp will continue tomake movies because there are
enough people like yeah, I knowhe that Amber Heard trial was
(47:59):
crazy man, but that she's also abitch.
Yes, she's a bitch.
Maybe I don't know, but we knowthat he's also crazy too.
Why would you continue tosupport that?
You can say I'm not going towatch anything that she's in.
But if you're going to do that,you need to do the same thing
for Johnny Depp.
You have to boycott thesepeople Need people to understand
(48:22):
you can't ethically consume it.
Speaker 2 (48:26):
It's you know.
I think that the problem isthat people say it's too hard.
Speaker 1 (48:33):
You just don't want to put the effort in, just admit
it.
Speaker 2 (48:35):
And that's the thing, Like okay, I don't know, though
I mean it's, I'm against, I'magainst child labor, but I still
have an iPhone.
Speaker 1 (48:48):
It is true.
There are certain cases whereit's it's really hard to
completely cut yourself off fromsome things.
As you just said, there's that.
I know that there are actualpeople who are like I don't like
Walmart, like Walmart hasdestroyed my small town
community, but Walmart is nowthe only place I can shop.
Walmart is the only place I canafford.
(49:10):
I am not going to be mad at youfor doing that.
I'm not going to be mad at you,for you know, looking at me
like I don't, I truly don't haveanother option.
I have done it In many cases,though, there is another option.
If you sit there and you're likeI hate Amazon, so, so, so much,
why?
(49:30):
Why do I see Prime boxesoutside your door?
You can cut down on that.
You may not be able tocompletely disengage from Amazon
, because Amazon is one of thosethat people kind of forget this
.
There's Amazon, the store whereyou buy all your crap, and then
there's the Amazon web service,which is hosting, like the
(49:51):
cloud, which is hosting so muchstuff.
So so many people, so manycompanies are paying Amazon to
host their things there that youuse on a daily basis.
That's a lot harder to cutyourself out from, but could you
decrease your usage of thosewebsites?
Yes, you know you have aniPhone.
(50:11):
Decrease your usage of thosewebsites.
Yes, you have an iPhone.
Child labor probably, let's behonest.
So maybe you just don't buy thenewest iPhone.
Maybe you make your phone lastas long as possible so that you
don't have to keep buying newthings.
I think there's always a waythat you can at least do
something.
You say like I don't like thisand I truly don't have another
(50:32):
option.
I cannot completely cut outchild labor from all these
things.
I cannot completely cut outAmazon, but I am doing I'm
actively doing my best todecrease my reliance on it and
decrease the amount of money Igive these people, while also
not going and living in a shackin the middle of the woods.
Speaker 2 (50:53):
I don't know it's.
I think it's.
It's a lot more complicatedthan that, because so, like
Guinness I found out, is I wouldsay like they're 90% liberal in
the, in the, the, the thingsthat they support, but their
(51:14):
parent company is kind of like adifferent story.
It's just kind of like okay, sowhere do I draw the line on
this?
Speaker 1 (51:23):
I think that's a personal thing for everybody.
Everybody has to look at it.
There is no one answer thatsays you draw it here.
I think everybody needs to, ontheir own, do their research and
look into it and be like howmuch am I going to tolerate?
Because, yes, you have acompany like Ben and Jerry's
that likes to put on this imageof we're super pro social
(51:43):
justice and all of that.
The parent company not really.
That's the case for a lot ofcompanies.
People just they're not awarethat, for instance, Kroger, the
(52:04):
grocery store chain, is morethan just Kroger.
Kroger has, like, tons of othercompanies have something
against Kroger.
You may not know.
Again, you need to educateyourself and you need to
personally decide how big of anissue is this for you, Like, how
much of a problem do you havewith this thing?
Because you may look, forinstance, you may look at Johnny
Depp and you say, yeah, it'spretty bad, but also, in the
(52:31):
grand scheme of things, thereare far worse people.
You know she was also crazy,whatever, and so I'm not going
to deprive myself of Johnny Deppmovies.
Okay, fine, fine, you know youmay look at Amazon and say I
think it's a really shit companybut I need to use them to buy
(52:54):
these things for my business.
I have no other option.
I've looked, I can't find it,so I'm going to keep using
Amazon to buy stuff.
But I think every little changeyou can make it adds up.
I'm sure you've seen.
Right now Target has been hitbig time because of DEI.
Have you seen that?
Yeah, I'm sure you've seen.
(53:14):
Right now Target has been hitbig time because of DEI.
Have you seen that?
That's a classic example.
People are upset that Targetcut their DEI initiative because
that was something that Targethad really pushed for a while
and so they are boycottingTarget.
That has an effect.
You don't have to completely cutTarget out.
Cut target out.
But if your thing used to be oh, I go on Saturdays, I go get my
(53:35):
little Starbies drink and I goto target and I do some shopping
, that's my like me time.
If you do that every Saturdayand you want to make a
difference, maybe you go everyother Saturday.
You cut out, cut it by half.
Well, you only go once a monthand you go someplace else the
other Saturdays, that has aneffect.
All of that has an effect.
You can't tell.
(53:56):
I'm going to completely get ridof it.
I'm going to completely.
I'm never going to drinkGuinness again because of this.
Can I find something else thatat the very least, I decrease my
dependence, my need, my like,obsession with this one thing as
a way of showing my displeasure?
Speaker 2 (54:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (54:13):
On that note, where would you put idolizing
potentially bad people on ourscale?
Oh, toxicity, would you saythat this is a green potato will
make you sick if you eat it,but just scrape off that part
and you'll be fine.
Is this a death cap mushroom,50-50 chance of death or coma,
(54:33):
even when cooked?
Or is this a delicious butdeadly last snack of antifreeze?
Speaker 2 (54:40):
Hmm, I'm debating between high death cap and jello
with sprinkles of antifreeze.
Speaker 1 (54:56):
We like kind of splatted, some on top.
Speaker 2 (55:02):
Because the thing is, as long as you, as long as
you're even if you don't agreewith the things that they're
saying or the things thatthey're doing that again, the
moment that you like their pageor that you support their movie,
you're saying this behaviormight be bad, but not bad enough
(55:27):
.
Mm-hmm, but not bad enough.
I would actually have to saymaybe, yeah.
Speaker 1 (55:41):
I'd have to say probably like Jello was
anti-free sprinkled.
I love our tier system.
(56:04):
Six green potatoes to continue.
You are saying this is okaybehavior and when you do that,
you can't be upset when thingspotentially snowball.
Because if you have a kid andthe kid punches you in the balls
because they're upset aboutsomething and you don't say
(56:26):
anything, you roll with thepunches that kid is going to
learn that this is an okay thingto do and they are going to
continue doing it.
And if you suddenly, a yearfrom now, we're like dang, I
really hate being punched in theball by my child it's going to
be a lot harder to stop them atthis point because they have
(56:46):
learned that this is okaybehavior and there are no
consequences, nothing happens.
And so you may have what isinitially not that big of a deal
.
You know, something bad happens.
You have an actor who doessomething dumb, a writer who
does something dumb, somebodywho says something you don't
(57:07):
agree with.
But you have to know your ownmorals and be like that has
crossed the line and I'm goingto say something and I'm going
to immediately kind of put myfoot down and be like we're not.
We're not doing that anymore,because it has the potential to
get so, so, so much worse ifleft to continue.
So I would agree that this islime Jell-O that I don't know.
(57:30):
Maybe the spoon that like mixedup the jello had been an
antifreeze or something likethat.
I actually don't know how muchantifreeze you would need to put
in lime jello to kill somebody,and that's not something I want
on my Google search history, soI will not be finding out that
information.
If you would like to look upthat information and let us know
(57:50):
, if you would like to look upthat information and let us know
, you can write to us at toxic,at awesome life skillscom.
You can also find us on socialmedia, on Facebook, on Instagram
and, technically, blue sky.
I have not gotten around toopening it back up after I
created it, but we are there andwith that, that has been the
(58:12):
toxic cooking show.
We'll see you guys next week.
Bye, bye.
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