March 26, 2025 • 41 mins
Empathy seems like a universally positive trait - until it's weaponized against you. In this eye-opening exploration of emotional boundaries, hosts Lindsay McClain and Christopher Patchet, LCSW unpack the surprising dangers of being "too nice" in a world that's quick to exploit kindness.
Drawing from psychological research and personal experience, they distinguish between empathy (actually feeling others' emotions) and sympathy (feeling compassion without absorbing emotions), revealing how these traits evolved to strengthen human communities. The benefits are undeniable - studies show sympathetic physicians make more accurate diagnoses, while empathetic leaders build stronger teams. But where's the line between healthy connection and self-destruction?
The conversation takes a powerful turn when examining how excessive empathy leads to burnout, poor decision-making, and vulnerability to manipulation. Christopher candidly acknowledges his own struggles with setting boundaries, offering listeners a relatable perspective on breaking free from the people-pleasing trap. Their discussion illuminates how narcissists and scammers specifically target empathetic individuals, using emotional urgency ("I'll be homeless tomorrow!") to bypass rational thinking.
Perhaps most valuably, they provide practical strategies for maintaining compassion without sacrificing yourself. From identifying manipulation tactics to recognizing when someone's crossing your boundaries, their advice empowers listeners to protect their emotional well-being without becoming callous. They also issue a thoughtful call to check on friends who "always say yes" - these individuals may be drowning in empathy burnout without realizing it.
Whether you're recovering from being taken advantage of or trying to support someone who gives too much, this episode offers the perfect balance of scientific insight, personal vulnerability, and actionable wisdom. The next time someone tells you that you can never be "too nice," you'll know exactly why that's dangerously untrue.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi and welcome to the Toxic Cooking Show, where we
break down toxic people intotheir simplest ingredients.
I'm your host for this week,lindsay McLean, and with me is
my fantastic co-host.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Christopher Padgett, LCSW.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
I am going to start us off with a question that I
already know the answer to.
Ha ha ha, that's cheating.
Well, I mean, it's one of thoseones that's very well, I mean,
it's one of those ones that'svery obvious, but I'm going to
force you into saying it outloud oh shit okay would you
(00:35):
consider yourself a nice person?
Yes the way you say.
That makes me it makes meunderstand that you know where
this is going.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Well, so it's more the idea that I know.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
I am too nice to giving to everything Bingo.
You have understood the keypoint here, which is also the
title of this episode.
Yes, you can be too nice.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Oh boy.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Oh yeah.
So to start us off with somedefinitions first, to make
things clear.
A lot of times we'll hearpeople talk about like sympathy
and empathy and it's not alwaysreally clear, clear what the
difference is between those.
But there are definitions foreach one.
(01:31):
So empathy is showingcompassion and understanding,
actually feeling the emotions ofthe other person.
So you're miserable because yougot chewed out by your boss,
I'm miserable with you.
We're both miserable that yougot chewed out by your boss.
I'm miserable with you, likewe're both miserable that you
got chewed out.
But it can also be like you'reecstatic because you got a
(01:51):
promotion.
I'm ecstatic with you.
It's not just for negativeemotions, both of these.
It can be positive, neutral,negative.
Empathy is I feel it with you.
I feel it with you.
Sympathy is feeling compassionfor someone.
You're miserable that you gotchewed out by your boss.
I am sad that you feel bad.
You're ecstatic that you gotthe promotion, I'm happy that
(02:15):
you got this good thing.
So again, in daily speech wekind of mix them up.
But to remember the difference,it's a sympathy card, not an
empathy card, although I'd'dlike to put.
I think we should have sometoxic cooking show branded
empathy cards.
It's just fuck.
That's all it says.
I think that would be like agreat, a great thing that we can
(02:36):
offer a great product I fuckinghate empathy and sympathy.
It's like um affecting theaffect or affecting yeah,
affecting the effect do you knowhow many times I had to read
over my notes to make sure Ihadn't, like, accidentally
written the wrong one somewhere,even remembering the sympathy
card, not empathy card?
There was sometimes like, as Iwas looking stuff up, I was like
(02:57):
which one is this?
And, to be fair, there isoverlap between them, like it's
not, like these are two totallydifferent concepts.
I think you could say thatthere's a certain amount where
it's like that could be sympathy, that could be empathy
somewhere in the middle andpeople will use them the same in
daily life.
Although with the sympathy card, you will also hear people
(03:21):
talking about being an empath,they don't talk about being a
sympath.
I'm an empath.
Like I can tell that you'reangry because I see it in your
face.
Yeah, it's called using youreyes.
Good job, you're not blind.
But there are people who aremore empathetic than others.
It is a skill that you canlearn.
(03:42):
It is a skill that you can justnot have.
Like there's some people whodon't have the ability to be
empathetic.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
So it's your pass.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
Exactly.
It's a pretty bad thing if youcan't be empathetic or
sympathetic to others, becauseit's extremely important.
Both of these are really reallyimportant for us as a species
in order to form community, andwe are a community species, we
don't just go at it alone Noneof this lone wolf shit here.
(04:11):
But being sympathetic is tiedto lower discrimination, more
cooperation, sharing, supporting, protecting others, and this
has been found in numerousstudies that have been done over
the years that people who havemore sympathy, who are more
sympathetic, are better at allof these things.
(04:32):
So there's a lot of good to behad by being a sympathetic
person.
For instance, there was a 1994study that found that physicians
who are more sympathetic to apatient's psychological distress
were more accurate when it cameto their assessments and
diagnoses which makes sense.
Yeah, it makes total sense to me.
It's like, well, yeah, if youactually believe the person when
(04:53):
they're like it really hurts orlike something is wrong with me
, that you would be more likelyto follow through and run the
extra tests or do the extra,whatever work required to find
out what the problem was.
So that was quoted in anotherstudy that I'd read.
(05:14):
I tried to find the numbersjust out of curiosity to see how
much more and I couldn't, butenough more than it was noted in
the study.
Another study found that beingsympathetic actually seems to
encourage creative solutions andcreative thinking, which again
makes sense.
That you know, if I feel sorrythat you're suffering, I
(05:35):
probably want to help fix it,and so I'm going to try and come
up with a way to fix it.
I'm thinking outside the boxbecause you're sad and I feel
sad that you're sad, and so Iwant to make us not sad.
And in the same vein, there'salso a lot of good to be had by
being an empathetic person.
(05:56):
Empathy can help us shareexperiences.
If we resonate with somebody'spain, we may be more motivated
to respond, just like withsympathy.
Empathy tends to, or havinghigher empathy tends to,
correlate with better leadership, like in the workplace.
It helps us make moraldecisions.
It can also this is kind oflike a historical one, but it
(06:20):
can help keep us safe in airquotes here, you know, if you're
able to read people and you'reable to kind of guess, like,
what everyone's feelings are andwhat their intentions are,
that's really important ifyou're interacting with unknown
people.
So you want to be able to haveall of this to communicate
effectively with people, to formfriendships, relationships like
(06:42):
romantic relationships, like towork well with others.
These are really importantthings to have, yeah yeah, I
would imagine.
So yeah, on the flip side, likewe said before, a lack of
empathy is associated withborderline personality disorder,
bipolar disorder, sociopathy.
So you can see, like the highswhere, like yeah, you can form
(07:05):
relationships, and then the lowsare like you've got some pretty
extreme disorders going on here.
You do not fit in with society,like you do not want to have a
lack of empathy or a lack ofsympathy.
I felt like I should make thatpoint before I jump into.
But you can go too high.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
I felt like I should make that point before I jump
into.
But you can go too high.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So yeah, it's not alwaysrainbows and unicorns and
sunshine when it comes toempathy and sympathy.
Certainly on the internet youcan sometimes hear people
talking about like, ooh, you cannever be too nice, you can
never have too much empathy, andwhile I understand where that's
coming from, you can, it's verydetrimental.
(07:51):
For instance, if you aresomebody who is very empathetic,
you are more likely toexperience burnout, and a lot of
things can lead to this.
Of course, not just being anempathetic person, but if you
are really feeling the emotionsof the people around you and you
(08:11):
are sharing in those emotionsagain, this is the highs and the
lows then this can build upover time.
It can cause a lot of stress,like if, every time you go into
the office, you're feeling themood in the office and it's not
just you sense it and you'relike, oh, things aren't good
today, but you feel it.
That's going to stress you outand having to manage all of
(08:35):
these emotions around you thatare affecting your emotion not
cool, not cool at all.
Being too empathetic can alsolead to poor decisions.
Studies have found that you maynarrow your focus too much.
I see you pointing at yourself.
We'll get to that You're comingup in just a second.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
Thanks, you're welcome.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
And in general, because you have this emotional
connection with people, you'regetting oxytocin.
You're making these to you deepconnections because you feel
what it is that they're feeling.
So you guys are on the samepage.
You are more likely to bereally loyal to them and, kind
of like, put them above othersagain at the expense of other
(09:41):
people, especially other peoplewho aren't within your circle.
You're going to focus all thetime, all the energy, all the
help, on that one person Becausethey're there.
You've made that connection, asopposed to realizing it's like
they don't actually need thatmuch help, but this person over
here oh shit, they really needit.
(10:04):
And linked that the urge to helpmay be too strong.
I warned you this was going tobe a mild call out episode
Filled with love.
No, this is how I see.
See, this is true love, becauseit's being done the millennial
way, not the fucking Gen Z way.
(10:25):
Oh, that hurts, it hurts mysoul.
Not the fucking Gen Z way.
Oh, that hurts, it hurts mysoul.
But somebody who has a lot ofempathy may feel the need to
help, even if they don't want to, or even if they know that it's
not the right answer to thesituation, because for them,
they want to help, they see it,they feel it, they need to help
(10:48):
you.
It's not a necessary like oh, Ifeel like, it's like I need to
help you to make this go awaywhich does mean that they may be
more likely to be takenadvantage of.
Empaths are people who identifyas that may be more likely to
end up in relationships withnarcissists.
Some studies do show thatpeople with increased empathy
(11:13):
are more likely to respond tofraudulent offers.
Not all studies, though, soit's not like a hundred percent
guaranteed, but I will say thatsome of them have shown this
link that if you're veryempathetic, you may be more
likely to fall for this type ofscam, especially if it's the
scammers who are trying to thisguy here, yeah, yeah, especially
(11:45):
if it's scammers who are tryingto use empathy, because there
are some scams.
They're just like wow, hello,help sir, I am Nigerian prince,
help me get my money.
And then there's scams thatyou've spoken about in the past
where you have these chicks whocome to you on dating websites.
They're like yeah, it's cool,we're hanging out as friends,
(12:06):
and then, magically, magically,you know, their dad has the same
issues that your dad did andhe's also a veteran like your
dad, or their pet, is reallysick and I really want to help.
I just I don't have the money.
I don't have the money to payfor vet bills, and that works on
most people.
(12:26):
I'll be honest.
Money I don't have the money topay for vet bills, and that
works on most people.
I'll be honest.
If you don't love animals, Ihave some questions about you as
a person, but especially forsomebody who again, like, really
feels that and has admittedthat, like this is something
that's important to me.
They, this type of scam, playson that emotion, and so studies
have shown that people who havea lot of empathy are probably
(12:47):
more likely to get sucked in bythat.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
I feel like I'm being called out here.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
I'm so sorry.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Majorly.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
I'm so sorry.
I did warn you.
I was going to be doing thisepisode.
I didn't want to spring it onyou out of nowhere and you're
like I feel called out, sorry.
Want to spring it on you out ofnowhere and you're like I feel
called out, sorry, sorry.
It's important that the peopleknow, though, and finally, this
(13:18):
can cross over intopeople-pleasing territory.
Sometimes you know the type ofperson who says yes to
everything, even when they don'twant to, they don't have the
emotional bandwidth, time orwhatever that can be linked to
having a lot of empathy.
If you're that type of person,it's like I just want everyone
to be happy, because, again, Imust remind you, you are feeling
(13:39):
these emotions too.
You're not just looking at themlike, oh, that's sad or yeah,
I'm happy for you.
Like if everyone around you isstressed out, you are stressed
out majorly and you can't reallycontrol it, so the best thing
you can do is just like say yes,make it, make it go away.
I'm going to turn off the video.
You know I can't focus on twothings at once.
(14:01):
So that's all about empathy.
Empathy is the one that I think,in general, you can kind of get
like too much of again becauseof that feeling, although
sympathy is not completely inthe clear, because sometimes
when you're very sympathetic oryou have a lot of sympathy for
(14:25):
somebody, that can come acrossas pity, which, speaking of the
word of the week, is pityP-I-T-Y.
In case you don't know how tospell, like me, I don't know how
to spell that one.
I don't know how to spelldefinitely I will till the day I
die I will spell that one wrong.
But pity means to feel sorry orcompassion for somebody who's
(14:47):
suffering.
It can also mean regret ordisappointment and I think
that's why in regular speech andstuff like that, pity is a
negative emotion.
No one wants to feel pitied.
It tends to kind of belittleyou.
They usually say like oh, Ipity them, it's like those poor
dumb idiots, they don't know anybetter and that's why I feel
(15:11):
bad for them, like I'm not justfeeling bad, I'm feeling pity,
and so it's a pretty negativeemotion, I think, for most
people.
I don't know if you would agree.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
I would agree.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
Yeah, even though when you look up the definition
it's not actually that negativetechnically.
But again, if somebody was like, oh man, I really pity you,
it'd be like oh, excuse you.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
Well, unless you're Mr T.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
That's true, unless you're Mr T, which I am not.
I pity the fool ah, yes, butyeah, studies have shown that
the further along doctors are intheir medical training, the
less empathy and sympathy theyhave this is something I totally
, I, I can totally see, I Iremember, um, when sid my, my
(16:04):
last dog, passed away.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
I remember getting a phone call at six o'clock in the
morning and the vet was likehey, just wanted to call you up,
let you know that your dog died.
If you need anything, pleasegive me a call.
I was like what a dick.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
What the fuck is wrong with you?
Oh, that is not how you do it.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
I mean, I understand where he's coming from.
If he's going to leave aheartfelt message every time
that dog dies, probably wouldwant to blow my brains out, but
yeah, I mean.
Yeah, see the whole thing aboutburnout, but yeah, I mean yeah,
see the whole thing aboutburnout.
But yeah, something a littlebit more Tasteful than hey, just
(16:54):
let you know your dog died.
Give me a call whenever you geta chance.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
Yeah, by the way, the bill is yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
That was actually part of the message.
It was like if you want to comein, uh, and then this way we
can discuss payment.
It's like you dick right.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
Oh my god.
Look, now is not the time, it'sreally not.
I'm gonna have to come inanyway.
Trust me, it's on my mind.
I know I need to pay you, justjust don't.
But see that.
That highlights the importanceof having a little bit of
empathy that you need to havefor things for sure that doctors
(17:43):
like the further along in theirmedical training and in their
career, like the less empathythat they have.
That has been absolutely shown.
There's also a lot of moralpanic at the moment.
I don't know how much of thisyou've seen either in your line
of work or just online thatmaybe as a society we're
becoming less empathetic.
People are like really reallypanicking about this.
(18:05):
Some studies say yes, otherstudies say no.
It's not actually really clear.
There is no definitive answer,which to me means we're probably
not becoming less empathetic Ifwe have studies that say yes
and studies that say no.
I would imagine that is one ofthese things where it's as the
population grows, there aregoing to be more people that are
(18:27):
not empathetic just because thepopulation's grown I mean the,
the one study that I forgot tonote it down here, because I
actually heard about it onanother podcast, which is why I
decided to do this one, becausethey also talked about sympathy
and empathy and I was, oh, I getit now.
And then I stole their idea andmade our podcast.
(18:49):
Hey, they went a different waythan where we're going, but
there is a study that's beendone I think it's like every
year and they ask high schoolstudents a specific set of
questions and it's been going onsince like the 70s or 80s.
So there's a pretty decentchunk of data that they've got.
(19:11):
But yeah, it's been going onsince then and, as a result,
they have a pretty decent chunkof data and that's one of those
ones that does not show anydecline in empathy, and you
would think that that's the typeof thing that, again, you've
(19:38):
been doing it for decades.
You would probably kind of startto see if there had been
something you would see it likego down and that came up too.
Is that maybe part of our?
You know, we just talked aboutthis in our therapy speak and
other related episodes thatpeople are becoming maybe a
little more blunt about.
Like, no, I'm not going to dothat, I'm not going to take this
(19:59):
thing on, I'm not going to dowhatever.
And it's not that it's lessempathy, but it's more of like a
correction society that maybebefore it was too much of like
you have to say yes, you have tosay yes all the time, and now
we're seeing that pushback andit doesn't actually translate
into I'm not an empathetic orsympathetic person.
I just can actually setboundaries and I'm using that in
(20:21):
the correct way here.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
Agreed.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
But I don't know, in your line of work, is this
something that you've everreally run into?
Speaker 2 (20:32):
In what respect?
Speaker 1 (20:33):
In terms of people being like.
Either I'm an empath or a lackof empathy, maybe in younger
patients.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
So I've had somebody who said that they felt not
normal because of the fact thatthey, they didn't have empathy
in certain situations where they, they, they would expect them
to have empathy.
And you know, I, I had to teachthis person the difference
(21:08):
between empathy and sympathy.
So they, they said that, yes,in these situations, like I'll
sit there and I'll say like man,that sucks that, that you know
that that shitty, or whatever.
But to actually feel something.
And I was like you know, you're, you're fine, you know like
you're not expected to.
(21:29):
You know, actually feel for,you know each and every
individual person.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
You can have a bad life if you do that.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
Yeah, yeah, and so I've seen that a couple of times
, but not too often.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
Yeah, I think it's just a lot of moral panic on the
internet because it also seemsto kind of come in waves where
you know, every time there's anew generation, the older
generations are like ugh.
First it was Gen X.
You guys weren't going toamount to anything.
Now it's millennials and uswith our avocado toast and
six-year six-dollar Starbuckslattes, and that's why we can't
(22:11):
buy a house.
Gen Z can't hold down a jobbecause they're always on the
clock app.
I'm sure there's going to besomething that Gen Alpha does
wrong.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
I would have to say that this has gone way back
further.
So, it's not like just startedwith gen uh, gen x, but you know
people looked at booby boomersand, like you know, the hippie
generation and oh, you can findif you look back at like old you
know, sensationalist newspaperarticle titles and stuff.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
You'll see it to the, the younger generation they're
fucked, they're you know, theywon't follow the rules.
Like what have we become as asociety?
I think there's always going tobe this kind of like oh no
panic going on that like theyouth they're youthing but again
, the fact that there are somestudies that are saying like
(23:01):
this might be a problem could besomething to look into and in
the future at some point.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
I think one of the biggest problems is that the
internet has given those peoplewho lack empathy and sympathy a
voice, and those voices aregetting louder, as opposed to
them being kind of ostracizedfrom society.
(23:30):
You can't even imagine the painthat somebody else is going
through Like you get the fuckout.
I think that the person who nowdoesn't have any empathy or or
anything like that they're ableto.
They have a much strongerplatform to kind of to, to call
(23:55):
out on, and the other people whoshare these views are saying
like yes, you know, like I agreewith you full heartedly, jordan
Peterson, but yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
Yeah, it is definitely a thing that I'm
seeing a rise in, that certaingroups are preying on this and
encouraging people to not payattention to the suffering or
feelings of others.
It's not just negative feelings, but even like the joys and
(24:36):
happiness of others and they'relike tightening and tightening
that circle of like what is yourcommunity?
And it's important to be ableto deal with others, because
even if you say like nope,here's my tiny little community,
I'm going to shut off tradewith other countries and we're
(24:57):
not going to interact with them,or we're not going to have
other people who don't look likeus and don't think like us.
We live in a globalized world.
There's only so much of thatthat you can prevent yourself
from running across.
And if you subscribe to this,group to this group.
(25:24):
Trying to be so hard, then Ithink you run the risk of
shooting yourself in the foot,because at some point you will
come across somebody who isdifferent and you will not have
the skills to interact with themin any way.
And that even is not even likeoh, this person came to where I
live, you go on vacation, youget married, you go on a
honeymoon to Europe and all of asudden, the people act real
(25:48):
different and the people thinkreal different, and you are
overwhelmed and confused and youare not having a good time
Because you cannot bond withthem over anything like you
can't even understand, like oh,they're frustrated because I did
the wrong thing.
Yeah, I understand.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
Haha, silly me, you're just like well, fuck you
too I think that's kind of goingwith the voices, that that
there.
So like I think of JordanPeterson, who literally says
that we have too much empathy,and it's like I mean this is,
(26:27):
you know, this is how we got towhere we are.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
You kind of figured that sympathy and empathy like
back in the day when there wasonly like 10,000 humans in the
world and a family was starving.
You know it was the idea thatother people were like you know,
like shit, you know, like Iknow what it's like to starve
and we will get together as acommunity and hunt down this
(26:58):
elephant.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
I mean, they've literally found examples of that
in like bones where you realize, like they found bones from you
know ancient hunter gatherersthat showed evidence that it had
like a femur that had brokenand then healed.
It's like you weren't feedingyourself during that time.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
Somebody was taking care of you right you couldn't
walk right and so, yeah, I meanbeing able to, to emphasize and
be like, oh, like I, I, I cantotally feel like why you know,
and then, and I feel your painand I want to help you and I
want to that's and that's how weare, where we are on the food
(27:40):
chain here.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
Yeah, and I think it's really important to
emphasize that.
I'm not saying that all empathyis bad.
Empathy is incredibly importantto have.
You have to have empathy, it'snon-negotiable and you have to
have sympathy and you have tohave sympathy.
But just as you can have toolittle, I think there's a far
(28:15):
smaller percentage of people whohave too much as compared to
the people who are, especiallywithin certain groups, leaning
more towards the.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
we don't need to have this anymore.
Ah, yes, yes, I will definitelysay that I do have way too much
.
Especially, I've learned tostep back in my working, which
again thank God, because I wouldbe burned out if I was having
empathy for every single personI saw I can still have sympathy
(28:42):
and still share and understandwhy they feel the way they do,
which is extremely important.
With doing what I do, but, yeah, but to actually take on that
pain no.
But yeah, but to actually takeon that pain no.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
I definitely will have to say that one-on-one
relationships that yes, I holdway too much empathy.
It is.
I mean, that's why we're here.
Is that too much of anything isa bad thing?
But I think it's one of thosethat is probably a hard line to
(29:33):
sometimes figure out.
For many people it's like wheredo I say like I've got empathy
up until right about here, Drawthat line like neatly in the
sand.
We be a hard thing to do, eventhough you're looking at it and
you're like I know that this isnot a great thing.
So, speaking of where do we gofrom here with having too much
empathy, too much empathy?
Speaker 2 (29:54):
I think that, just going from personal experience,
is to really take a step back.
I think that fortunately andthen we've talked about this
before where it is the peoplewho the predators know exactly
what to look for and they aregoing to prey on people with way
(30:20):
too much empathy, whether it isfor sex or for money or
whatever and and it really beingable to take the step back and
and realize that kind of goingwith social norms of like you
know, like okay, if somebody isputting such a harsh emphasis on
(30:44):
what can I get from this, to beable to say, like okay, you
know what, I, I, I, I understandthe pain and everything like
that, but at the same time, likenow you're starting to cross
boundaries, now you're startingto really kind of come into
things.
So I would say I would say ahuge part is setting up
(31:05):
boundaries, because somebody whois trying to prey on somebody
with, uh, with empathy, they aregoing to step over those
boundaries like very and veryharshly going to step over those
boundaries like very and veryharshly so, like that's part of
what boundaries are there, forBoundaries is a wall.
(31:28):
Like you know you're you're notsupposed to be able to go
through it.
Somebody who is preying onsomebody with empathy they're
they're going to step through itas quickly as possible.
So I think, being aware of whatboundaries people are going
through and really kind oftaking a step back and looking
at your own needs first, becauseif your own needs are not being
met, you're not going to beable to meet anybody else's
(31:49):
needs.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
Yup, a hundred percent.
You know, and if your needs arebeing met and you still have
the capacity to help and thisperson means something to you,
then absolutely go ahead.
Like again, you don't want tofall into the oh, I'm too
empathetic, let me just no moreempathy.
Like it's gone, you don't wantto go that route either.
(32:13):
Don't want to go that routeeither.
But yeah, you do.
You need to set thoseboundaries, to say, like you're
not gonna, you're not gonna askme for this.
Like I don't do this, I don'tdo that.
The phone, you know, maybe it'slike I'm turning my phone off
at 11pm.
You can text me all you wantabout what you need.
I ain't gonna see it Notanswering that.
Like we're not, we're not doingthis, I'm not available 24-7.
(32:34):
I'm not going to be swayed bythese arguments and stuff like
that.
I have a friend who does a lotof aid work in Ukraine and oh my
God, the number of people whomessage her with just horrific
things, trying to prey onempathy, being like I need this,
(32:56):
you don't understand.
Like my mother has cancer.
Okay, we're not talking aboutgiving getting your mother's
stuff.
We were talking about gettingthe dogs that you adopted food.
Why does mom having cancer getpulled in?
It was like that level.
It's like you have to haveboundaries with with that type
of thing.
I would also like to add thatempathy can, like I said before,
(33:18):
empathy can be taught.
So if you see people in yourlife or if you maybe think that
you're like, wow, I'm missingthis.
If you look at, you know,listen to this episode, and
you're like I don't have thisproblem, I think I have the
other one.
Empathy can be taught.
You can learn to be empatheticfor people.
Empathy can be taught.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
You can learn to be empathetic for people, and I
think that one other thing likeI and I think that this might be
an episode to kind of, you know, do in the future by like
spotting spotting the scams,because like another thing and
then this is something thathappened to me so many times is
(33:57):
that somebody who is preying onsomebody else's empathy they
will not give you the chance tothink about it, because the
moment you start thinking aboutit, then you're like wait a sec,
didn't they say so?
It's always going to besomething about like my mom has
cancer and she needs help.
Now, if I don't get this, thenI'm going to be homeless
(34:19):
tomorrow.
Being able to spot that becausechances are like cancer is, is
something, is not just like youknow, like one day you don't
have cancer, then the next dayyou're, you're at stage four.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
Yeah, like we, we, we knew that mom had cancer before
, at stage four.
Yeah, we knew that mom hadcancer before.
This did not just suddenlyoccur to us at 10.30 PM that
we're like, oh, my mother hascancer.
I should do something aboutthat.
No, the other thing that Iwould add for where do we go
from here is for people who arelike no, I have the right amount
of empathy, not too much, nottoo little.
(34:57):
Take a look at your friends.
Check in on your friends.
Like you know that one personwho always says yes, that one
person who's like, always therefor you, like no matter what,
like always, like always, always.
Maybe check in on them.
Maybe ask yourself when was thelast time that you did
something for them on them?
(35:18):
Maybe ask yourself when was thelast time that you did
something for them?
Maybe don't ask them the oneperson who always does the
office party and always does thethis and always does that.
Maybe don't ask them this year.
Maybe ask somebody else.
That's something I think that wecould all do a better job of is
making sure that you're notalways falling back on that
person who you're like.
But Bob does it.
Bob always says yes, bob isalways there for me, bob's
(35:40):
always.
You know, if I need to talk, Ineed to do this, like I.
You know this is the personthat I go to.
Burnout is real and emotionalburnout is real, and they may
not be able to tell you this,and so you actively working to
not put too much on them and tocheck in on them is probably a
good thing.
Speaker 2 (35:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
Yes.
With that being said, wherewould you place having too much
empathy and, I guess, sympathy?
Well, empathy is a bigger issue.
On our scale of toxicity, wouldyou say that this is a green
potato?
They give you a stomachache ifyou eat it, but if you just
scrape it off it's fine.
Is this a death cap mushroom,50-50 chance of death or coma?
(36:25):
Or is this a delicious butdeadly last snack, especially?
Speaker 2 (36:33):
when mixed with lime jello and a freeze.
I would say that this is apretty solid death cap, because
somebody not that I know ofanybody like this, but somebody
with too much empathy is alwaysgoing to put the other person
first, down to the fact that theproblem that they're trying to
(36:56):
solve ends up becoming their ownproblem.
So, like the whole um, I needmoney for this, or I need money
for I need money, or else I'mgonna be homeless and then
getting down to the point whereit's like, oh shit, I need money
, or else I'm gonna be homeless.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
And how quickly the other person is just like oh God
, yeah, you were there for them,but they weren't there for you.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
Yeah, exactly so I, I , you know, I think that it is
definitely something that Icould kill somebody.
But you know, like too muchempathy again, there there's
various degrees.
Like maybe you have a littlebit too much, maybe maybe you're
kind of like, you know, uh,maybe you should just like kind
(37:41):
of back off of things, maybe allthe way to.
Yeah, dude, you, you gotta stopfucking giving other people
benefit of the doubt because nowyou're going to fucking put
yourself in shit again.
Like not that I know anybodylike that.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
No, I don, I know anybody like that no, I don't
know anybody like that either,but I would agree with you that
this is probably a death cap,that while I don't think that
there are tons of people out inthe world that have too much
(38:17):
empathy, there are, there aredefinitely people out there in
the world who have too muchempathy.
I know multiple people in mylife who I'm like.
You know you've gotten yourselfinto some sticky situations
because you wanted to help.
You genuinely wanted to help,and in your desire to help I see
(38:38):
you, I was trying to ignore you, but in your desire to help
other people, you forgot aboutyourself and you also didn't
have the skills to kind of putup that boundary and be like,
hey, I've helped you up tillthis point, that is all I can do
If you need more help.
(39:00):
You got to go someplace elseand at the very least, like okay
, maybe you've quote unquotelost a little something in there
if that person was takingadvantage of you.
But you had that kind of upperlimit of like I don't go beyond
this.
I've known people who just Iknow people currently who will
just keep going because theyreally, really want to, and, as
(39:22):
you said, it has a huge rangefrom just a little bit to
somebody who potentially couldand thankfully I don't know
anyone who like it's gotten tothis level but like you could
end up homeless.
You could end up like in areally bad, just general
financial situation.
You could end up in liketrouble with the law because
(39:43):
you've now like gone out andyou've done this and you've
helped this person and done that.
It's like, ooh, that person waslike fucking around with
something and now you'reinvolved in it.
You really do have to be careful, as the person who has a lot of
empathy like acknowledging thatand so, while it's not a sheer
numbers problem, it has thatpotential to like get bad
(40:06):
quickly, yep.
So if you would like to shareany stories about having too
much empathy or too littleempathy, you can write to us at
toxic.
At awesome life skillscom.
You can find us maybesemi-actively, depending on the
week and how I'm feeling onFacebook, instagram and blue sky
(40:30):
.
Uh, you can technically find uson X threads and tick tock, but
I don't control those accounts,so I do control.
X I just don't want to go on Xright now.
It's it's nobody needs to be onthere, so until next week.
(40:52):
This has been the toxic cookingshow.
Bye.
Speaker 2 (40:56):
Bye, bye.
Hi and welcome to the Toxic Cooking Show, where we
break down toxic people intotheir simplest ingredients.
I'm your host for this week,lindsay McLean, and with me is
my fantastic co-host.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Christopher Padgett, LCSW.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
I am going to start us off with a question that I
already know the answer to.
Ha ha ha, that's cheating.
Well, I mean, it's one of thoseones that's very well, I mean,
it's one of those ones that'svery obvious, but I'm going to
force you into saying it outloud oh shit okay would you
(00:35):
consider yourself a nice person?
Yes the way you say.
That makes me it makes meunderstand that you know where
this is going.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Well, so it's more the idea that I know.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
I am too nice to giving to everything Bingo.
You have understood the keypoint here, which is also the
title of this episode.
Yes, you can be too nice.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Oh boy.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Oh yeah.
So to start us off with somedefinitions first, to make
things clear.
A lot of times we'll hearpeople talk about like sympathy
and empathy and it's not alwaysreally clear, clear what the
difference is between those.
But there are definitions foreach one.
(01:31):
So empathy is showingcompassion and understanding,
actually feeling the emotions ofthe other person.
So you're miserable because yougot chewed out by your boss,
I'm miserable with you.
We're both miserable that yougot chewed out by your boss.
I'm miserable with you, likewe're both miserable that you
got chewed out.
But it can also be like you'reecstatic because you got a
(01:51):
promotion.
I'm ecstatic with you.
It's not just for negativeemotions, both of these.
It can be positive, neutral,negative.
Empathy is I feel it with you.
I feel it with you.
Sympathy is feeling compassionfor someone.
You're miserable that you gotchewed out by your boss.
I am sad that you feel bad.
You're ecstatic that you gotthe promotion, I'm happy that
(02:15):
you got this good thing.
So again, in daily speech wekind of mix them up.
But to remember the difference,it's a sympathy card, not an
empathy card, although I'd'dlike to put.
I think we should have sometoxic cooking show branded
empathy cards.
It's just fuck.
That's all it says.
I think that would be like agreat, a great thing that we can
(02:36):
offer a great product I fuckinghate empathy and sympathy.
It's like um affecting theaffect or affecting yeah,
affecting the effect do you knowhow many times I had to read
over my notes to make sure Ihadn't, like, accidentally
written the wrong one somewhere,even remembering the sympathy
card, not empathy card?
There was sometimes like, as Iwas looking stuff up, I was like
(02:57):
which one is this?
And, to be fair, there isoverlap between them, like it's
not, like these are two totallydifferent concepts.
I think you could say thatthere's a certain amount where
it's like that could be sympathy, that could be empathy
somewhere in the middle andpeople will use them the same in
daily life.
Although with the sympathy card, you will also hear people
(03:21):
talking about being an empath,they don't talk about being a
sympath.
I'm an empath.
Like I can tell that you'reangry because I see it in your
face.
Yeah, it's called using youreyes.
Good job, you're not blind.
But there are people who aremore empathetic than others.
It is a skill that you canlearn.
(03:42):
It is a skill that you can justnot have.
Like there's some people whodon't have the ability to be
empathetic.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
So it's your pass.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
Exactly.
It's a pretty bad thing if youcan't be empathetic or
sympathetic to others, becauseit's extremely important.
Both of these are really reallyimportant for us as a species
in order to form community, andwe are a community species, we
don't just go at it alone Noneof this lone wolf shit here.
(04:11):
But being sympathetic is tiedto lower discrimination, more
cooperation, sharing, supporting, protecting others, and this
has been found in numerousstudies that have been done over
the years that people who havemore sympathy, who are more
sympathetic, are better at allof these things.
(04:32):
So there's a lot of good to behad by being a sympathetic
person.
For instance, there was a 1994study that found that physicians
who are more sympathetic to apatient's psychological distress
were more accurate when it cameto their assessments and
diagnoses which makes sense.
Yeah, it makes total sense to me.
It's like, well, yeah, if youactually believe the person when
(04:53):
they're like it really hurts orlike something is wrong with me
, that you would be more likelyto follow through and run the
extra tests or do the extra,whatever work required to find
out what the problem was.
So that was quoted in anotherstudy that I'd read.
(05:14):
I tried to find the numbersjust out of curiosity to see how
much more and I couldn't, butenough more than it was noted in
the study.
Another study found that beingsympathetic actually seems to
encourage creative solutions andcreative thinking, which again
makes sense.
That you know, if I feel sorrythat you're suffering, I
(05:35):
probably want to help fix it,and so I'm going to try and come
up with a way to fix it.
I'm thinking outside the boxbecause you're sad and I feel
sad that you're sad, and so Iwant to make us not sad.
And in the same vein, there'salso a lot of good to be had by
being an empathetic person.
(05:56):
Empathy can help us shareexperiences.
If we resonate with somebody'spain, we may be more motivated
to respond, just like withsympathy.
Empathy tends to, or havinghigher empathy tends to,
correlate with better leadership, like in the workplace.
It helps us make moraldecisions.
It can also this is kind oflike a historical one, but it
(06:20):
can help keep us safe in airquotes here, you know, if you're
able to read people and you'reable to kind of guess, like,
what everyone's feelings are andwhat their intentions are,
that's really important ifyou're interacting with unknown
people.
So you want to be able to haveall of this to communicate
effectively with people, to formfriendships, relationships like
(06:42):
romantic relationships, like towork well with others.
These are really importantthings to have, yeah yeah, I
would imagine.
So yeah, on the flip side, likewe said before, a lack of
empathy is associated withborderline personality disorder,
bipolar disorder, sociopathy.
So you can see, like the highswhere, like yeah, you can form
(07:05):
relationships, and then the lowsare like you've got some pretty
extreme disorders going on here.
You do not fit in with society,like you do not want to have a
lack of empathy or a lack ofsympathy.
I felt like I should make thatpoint before I jump into.
But you can go too high.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
I felt like I should make that point before I jump
into.
But you can go too high.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So yeah, it's not alwaysrainbows and unicorns and
sunshine when it comes toempathy and sympathy.
Certainly on the internet youcan sometimes hear people
talking about like, ooh, you cannever be too nice, you can
never have too much empathy, andwhile I understand where that's
coming from, you can, it's verydetrimental.
(07:51):
For instance, if you aresomebody who is very empathetic,
you are more likely toexperience burnout, and a lot of
things can lead to this.
Of course, not just being anempathetic person, but if you
are really feeling the emotionsof the people around you and you
(08:11):
are sharing in those emotionsagain, this is the highs and the
lows then this can build upover time.
It can cause a lot of stress,like if, every time you go into
the office, you're feeling themood in the office and it's not
just you sense it and you'relike, oh, things aren't good
today, but you feel it.
That's going to stress you outand having to manage all of
(08:35):
these emotions around you thatare affecting your emotion not
cool, not cool at all.
Being too empathetic can alsolead to poor decisions.
Studies have found that you maynarrow your focus too much.
I see you pointing at yourself.
We'll get to that You're comingup in just a second.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
Thanks, you're welcome.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
And in general, because you have this emotional
connection with people, you'regetting oxytocin.
You're making these to you deepconnections because you feel
what it is that they're feeling.
So you guys are on the samepage.
You are more likely to bereally loyal to them and, kind
of like, put them above othersagain at the expense of other
(09:41):
people, especially other peoplewho aren't within your circle.
You're going to focus all thetime, all the energy, all the
help, on that one person Becausethey're there.
You've made that connection, asopposed to realizing it's like
they don't actually need thatmuch help, but this person over
here oh shit, they really needit.
(10:04):
And linked that the urge to helpmay be too strong.
I warned you this was going tobe a mild call out episode
Filled with love.
No, this is how I see.
See, this is true love, becauseit's being done the millennial
way, not the fucking Gen Z way.
(10:25):
Oh, that hurts, it hurts mysoul.
Not the fucking Gen Z way.
Oh, that hurts, it hurts mysoul.
But somebody who has a lot ofempathy may feel the need to
help, even if they don't want to, or even if they know that it's
not the right answer to thesituation, because for them,
they want to help, they see it,they feel it, they need to help
(10:48):
you.
It's not a necessary like oh, Ifeel like, it's like I need to
help you to make this go awaywhich does mean that they may be
more likely to be takenadvantage of.
Empaths are people who identifyas that may be more likely to
end up in relationships withnarcissists.
Some studies do show thatpeople with increased empathy
(11:13):
are more likely to respond tofraudulent offers.
Not all studies, though, soit's not like a hundred percent
guaranteed, but I will say thatsome of them have shown this
link that if you're veryempathetic, you may be more
likely to fall for this type ofscam, especially if it's the
scammers who are trying to thisguy here, yeah, yeah, especially
(11:45):
if it's scammers who are tryingto use empathy, because there
are some scams.
They're just like wow, hello,help sir, I am Nigerian prince,
help me get my money.
And then there's scams thatyou've spoken about in the past
where you have these chicks whocome to you on dating websites.
They're like yeah, it's cool,we're hanging out as friends,
(12:06):
and then, magically, magically,you know, their dad has the same
issues that your dad did andhe's also a veteran like your
dad, or their pet, is reallysick and I really want to help.
I just I don't have the money.
I don't have the money to payfor vet bills, and that works on
most people.
(12:26):
I'll be honest.
Money I don't have the money topay for vet bills, and that
works on most people.
I'll be honest.
If you don't love animals, Ihave some questions about you as
a person, but especially forsomebody who again, like, really
feels that and has admittedthat, like this is something
that's important to me.
They, this type of scam, playson that emotion, and so studies
have shown that people who havea lot of empathy are probably
(12:47):
more likely to get sucked in bythat.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
I feel like I'm being called out here.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
I'm so sorry.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Majorly.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
I'm so sorry.
I did warn you.
I was going to be doing thisepisode.
I didn't want to spring it onyou out of nowhere and you're
like I feel called out, sorry.
Want to spring it on you out ofnowhere and you're like I feel
called out, sorry, sorry.
It's important that the peopleknow, though, and finally, this
(13:18):
can cross over intopeople-pleasing territory.
Sometimes you know the type ofperson who says yes to
everything, even when they don'twant to, they don't have the
emotional bandwidth, time orwhatever that can be linked to
having a lot of empathy.
If you're that type of person,it's like I just want everyone
to be happy, because, again, Imust remind you, you are feeling
(13:39):
these emotions too.
You're not just looking at themlike, oh, that's sad or yeah,
I'm happy for you.
Like if everyone around you isstressed out, you are stressed
out majorly and you can't reallycontrol it, so the best thing
you can do is just like say yes,make it, make it go away.
I'm going to turn off the video.
You know I can't focus on twothings at once.
(14:01):
So that's all about empathy.
Empathy is the one that I think,in general, you can kind of get
like too much of again becauseof that feeling, although
sympathy is not completely inthe clear, because sometimes
when you're very sympathetic oryou have a lot of sympathy for
(14:25):
somebody, that can come acrossas pity, which, speaking of the
word of the week, is pityP-I-T-Y.
In case you don't know how tospell, like me, I don't know how
to spell that one.
I don't know how to spelldefinitely I will till the day I
die I will spell that one wrong.
But pity means to feel sorry orcompassion for somebody who's
(14:47):
suffering.
It can also mean regret ordisappointment and I think
that's why in regular speech andstuff like that, pity is a
negative emotion.
No one wants to feel pitied.
It tends to kind of belittleyou.
They usually say like oh, Ipity them, it's like those poor
dumb idiots, they don't know anybetter and that's why I feel
(15:11):
bad for them, like I'm not justfeeling bad, I'm feeling pity,
and so it's a pretty negativeemotion, I think, for most
people.
I don't know if you would agree.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
I would agree.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
Yeah, even though when you look up the definition
it's not actually that negativetechnically.
But again, if somebody was like, oh man, I really pity you,
it'd be like oh, excuse you.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
Well, unless you're Mr T.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
That's true, unless you're Mr T, which I am not.
I pity the fool ah, yes, butyeah, studies have shown that
the further along doctors are intheir medical training, the
less empathy and sympathy theyhave this is something I totally
, I, I can totally see, I Iremember, um, when sid my, my
(16:04):
last dog, passed away.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
I remember getting a phone call at six o'clock in the
morning and the vet was likehey, just wanted to call you up,
let you know that your dog died.
If you need anything, pleasegive me a call.
I was like what a dick.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
What the fuck is wrong with you?
Oh, that is not how you do it.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
I mean, I understand where he's coming from.
If he's going to leave aheartfelt message every time
that dog dies, probably wouldwant to blow my brains out, but
yeah, I mean.
Yeah, see the whole thing aboutburnout, but yeah, I mean yeah,
see the whole thing aboutburnout.
But yeah, something a littlebit more Tasteful than hey, just
(16:54):
let you know your dog died.
Give me a call whenever you geta chance.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
Yeah, by the way, the bill is yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
That was actually part of the message.
It was like if you want to comein, uh, and then this way we
can discuss payment.
It's like you dick right.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
Oh my god.
Look, now is not the time, it'sreally not.
I'm gonna have to come inanyway.
Trust me, it's on my mind.
I know I need to pay you, justjust don't.
But see that.
That highlights the importanceof having a little bit of
empathy that you need to havefor things for sure that doctors
(17:43):
like the further along in theirmedical training and in their
career, like the less empathythat they have.
That has been absolutely shown.
There's also a lot of moralpanic at the moment.
I don't know how much of thisyou've seen either in your line
of work or just online thatmaybe as a society we're
becoming less empathetic.
People are like really reallypanicking about this.
(18:05):
Some studies say yes, otherstudies say no.
It's not actually really clear.
There is no definitive answer,which to me means we're probably
not becoming less empathetic Ifwe have studies that say yes
and studies that say no.
I would imagine that is one ofthese things where it's as the
population grows, there aregoing to be more people that are
(18:27):
not empathetic just because thepopulation's grown I mean the,
the one study that I forgot tonote it down here, because I
actually heard about it onanother podcast, which is why I
decided to do this one, becausethey also talked about sympathy
and empathy and I was, oh, I getit now.
And then I stole their idea andmade our podcast.
(18:49):
Hey, they went a different waythan where we're going, but
there is a study that's beendone I think it's like every
year and they ask high schoolstudents a specific set of
questions and it's been going onsince like the 70s or 80s.
So there's a pretty decentchunk of data that they've got.
(19:11):
But yeah, it's been going onsince then and, as a result,
they have a pretty decent chunkof data and that's one of those
ones that does not show anydecline in empathy, and you
would think that that's the typeof thing that, again, you've
(19:38):
been doing it for decades.
You would probably kind of startto see if there had been
something you would see it likego down and that came up too.
Is that maybe part of our?
You know, we just talked aboutthis in our therapy speak and
other related episodes thatpeople are becoming maybe a
little more blunt about.
Like, no, I'm not going to dothat, I'm not going to take this
(19:59):
thing on, I'm not going to dowhatever.
And it's not that it's lessempathy, but it's more of like a
correction society that maybebefore it was too much of like
you have to say yes, you have tosay yes all the time, and now
we're seeing that pushback andit doesn't actually translate
into I'm not an empathetic orsympathetic person.
I just can actually setboundaries and I'm using that in
(20:21):
the correct way here.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
Agreed.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
But I don't know, in your line of work, is this
something that you've everreally run into?
Speaker 2 (20:32):
In what respect?
Speaker 1 (20:33):
In terms of people being like.
Either I'm an empath or a lackof empathy, maybe in younger
patients.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
So I've had somebody who said that they felt not
normal because of the fact thatthey, they didn't have empathy
in certain situations where they, they, they would expect them
to have empathy.
And you know, I, I had to teachthis person the difference
(21:08):
between empathy and sympathy.
So they, they said that, yes,in these situations, like I'll
sit there and I'll say like man,that sucks that, that you know
that that shitty, or whatever.
But to actually feel something.
And I was like you know, you're, you're fine, you know like
you're not expected to.
(21:29):
You know, actually feel for,you know each and every
individual person.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
You can have a bad life if you do that.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
Yeah, yeah, and so I've seen that a couple of times
, but not too often.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
Yeah, I think it's just a lot of moral panic on the
internet because it also seemsto kind of come in waves where
you know, every time there's anew generation, the older
generations are like ugh.
First it was Gen X.
You guys weren't going toamount to anything.
Now it's millennials and uswith our avocado toast and
six-year six-dollar Starbuckslattes, and that's why we can't
(22:11):
buy a house.
Gen Z can't hold down a jobbecause they're always on the
clock app.
I'm sure there's going to besomething that Gen Alpha does
wrong.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
I would have to say that this has gone way back
further.
So, it's not like just startedwith gen uh, gen x, but you know
people looked at booby boomersand, like you know, the hippie
generation and oh, you can findif you look back at like old you
know, sensationalist newspaperarticle titles and stuff.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
You'll see it to the, the younger generation they're
fucked, they're you know, theywon't follow the rules.
Like what have we become as asociety?
I think there's always going tobe this kind of like oh no
panic going on that like theyouth they're youthing but again
, the fact that there are somestudies that are saying like
(23:01):
this might be a problem could besomething to look into and in
the future at some point.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
I think one of the biggest problems is that the
internet has given those peoplewho lack empathy and sympathy a
voice, and those voices aregetting louder, as opposed to
them being kind of ostracizedfrom society.
(23:30):
You can't even imagine the painthat somebody else is going
through Like you get the fuckout.
I think that the person who nowdoesn't have any empathy or or
anything like that they're ableto.
They have a much strongerplatform to kind of to, to call
(23:55):
out on, and the other people whoshare these views are saying
like yes, you know, like I agreewith you full heartedly, jordan
Peterson, but yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
Yeah, it is definitely a thing that I'm
seeing a rise in, that certaingroups are preying on this and
encouraging people to not payattention to the suffering or
feelings of others.
It's not just negative feelings, but even like the joys and
(24:36):
happiness of others and they'relike tightening and tightening
that circle of like what is yourcommunity?
And it's important to be ableto deal with others, because
even if you say like nope,here's my tiny little community,
I'm going to shut off tradewith other countries and we're
(24:57):
not going to interact with them,or we're not going to have
other people who don't look likeus and don't think like us.
We live in a globalized world.
There's only so much of thatthat you can prevent yourself
from running across.
And if you subscribe to this,group to this group.
(25:24):
Trying to be so hard, then Ithink you run the risk of
shooting yourself in the foot,because at some point you will
come across somebody who isdifferent and you will not have
the skills to interact with themin any way.
And that even is not even likeoh, this person came to where I
live, you go on vacation, youget married, you go on a
honeymoon to Europe and all of asudden, the people act real
(25:48):
different and the people thinkreal different, and you are
overwhelmed and confused and youare not having a good time
Because you cannot bond withthem over anything like you
can't even understand, like oh,they're frustrated because I did
the wrong thing.
Yeah, I understand.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
Haha, silly me, you're just like well, fuck you
too I think that's kind of goingwith the voices, that that
there.
So like I think of JordanPeterson, who literally says
that we have too much empathy,and it's like I mean this is,
(26:27):
you know, this is how we got towhere we are.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
You kind of figured that sympathy and empathy like
back in the day when there wasonly like 10,000 humans in the
world and a family was starving.
You know it was the idea thatother people were like you know,
like shit, you know, like Iknow what it's like to starve
and we will get together as acommunity and hunt down this
(26:58):
elephant.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
I mean, they've literally found examples of that
in like bones where you realize, like they found bones from you
know ancient hunter gatherersthat showed evidence that it had
like a femur that had brokenand then healed.
It's like you weren't feedingyourself during that time.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
Somebody was taking care of you right you couldn't
walk right and so, yeah, I meanbeing able to, to emphasize and
be like, oh, like I, I, I cantotally feel like why you know,
and then, and I feel your painand I want to help you and I
want to that's and that's how weare, where we are on the food
(27:40):
chain here.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
Yeah, and I think it's really important to
emphasize that.
I'm not saying that all empathyis bad.
Empathy is incredibly importantto have.
You have to have empathy, it'snon-negotiable and you have to
have sympathy and you have tohave sympathy.
But just as you can have toolittle, I think there's a far
(28:15):
smaller percentage of people whohave too much as compared to
the people who are, especiallywithin certain groups, leaning
more towards the.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
we don't need to have this anymore.
Ah, yes, yes, I will definitelysay that I do have way too much
.
Especially, I've learned tostep back in my working, which
again thank God, because I wouldbe burned out if I was having
empathy for every single personI saw I can still have sympathy
(28:42):
and still share and understandwhy they feel the way they do,
which is extremely important.
With doing what I do, but, yeah, but to actually take on that
pain no.
But yeah, but to actually takeon that pain no.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
I definitely will have to say that one-on-one
relationships that yes, I holdway too much empathy.
It is.
I mean, that's why we're here.
Is that too much of anything isa bad thing?
But I think it's one of thosethat is probably a hard line to
(29:33):
sometimes figure out.
For many people it's like wheredo I say like I've got empathy
up until right about here, Drawthat line like neatly in the
sand.
We be a hard thing to do, eventhough you're looking at it and
you're like I know that this isnot a great thing.
So, speaking of where do we gofrom here with having too much
empathy, too much empathy?
Speaker 2 (29:54):
I think that, just going from personal experience,
is to really take a step back.
I think that fortunately andthen we've talked about this
before where it is the peoplewho the predators know exactly
what to look for and they aregoing to prey on people with way
(30:20):
too much empathy, whether it isfor sex or for money or
whatever and and it really beingable to take the step back and
and realize that kind of goingwith social norms of like you
know, like okay, if somebody isputting such a harsh emphasis on
(30:44):
what can I get from this, to beable to say, like okay, you
know what, I, I, I, I understandthe pain and everything like
that, but at the same time, likenow you're starting to cross
boundaries, now you're startingto really kind of come into
things.
So I would say I would say ahuge part is setting up
(31:05):
boundaries, because somebody whois trying to prey on somebody
with, uh, with empathy, they aregoing to step over those
boundaries like very and veryharshly going to step over those
boundaries like very and veryharshly so, like that's part of
what boundaries are there, forBoundaries is a wall.
(31:28):
Like you know you're you're notsupposed to be able to go
through it.
Somebody who is preying onsomebody with empathy they're
they're going to step through itas quickly as possible.
So I think, being aware of whatboundaries people are going
through and really kind oftaking a step back and looking
at your own needs first, becauseif your own needs are not being
met, you're not going to beable to meet anybody else's
(31:49):
needs.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
Yup, a hundred percent.
You know, and if your needs arebeing met and you still have
the capacity to help and thisperson means something to you,
then absolutely go ahead.
Like again, you don't want tofall into the oh, I'm too
empathetic, let me just no moreempathy.
Like it's gone, you don't wantto go that route either.
(32:13):
Don't want to go that routeeither.
But yeah, you do.
You need to set thoseboundaries, to say, like you're
not gonna, you're not gonna askme for this.
Like I don't do this, I don'tdo that.
The phone, you know, maybe it'slike I'm turning my phone off
at 11pm.
You can text me all you wantabout what you need.
I ain't gonna see it Notanswering that.
Like we're not, we're not doingthis, I'm not available 24-7.
(32:34):
I'm not going to be swayed bythese arguments and stuff like
that.
I have a friend who does a lotof aid work in Ukraine and oh my
God, the number of people whomessage her with just horrific
things, trying to prey onempathy, being like I need this,
(32:56):
you don't understand.
Like my mother has cancer.
Okay, we're not talking aboutgiving getting your mother's
stuff.
We were talking about gettingthe dogs that you adopted food.
Why does mom having cancer getpulled in?
It was like that level.
It's like you have to haveboundaries with with that type
of thing.
I would also like to add thatempathy can, like I said before,
(33:18):
empathy can be taught.
So if you see people in yourlife or if you maybe think that
you're like, wow, I'm missingthis.
If you look at, you know,listen to this episode, and
you're like I don't have thisproblem, I think I have the
other one.
Empathy can be taught.
You can learn to be empatheticfor people.
Empathy can be taught.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
You can learn to be empathetic for people, and I
think that one other thing likeI and I think that this might be
an episode to kind of, you know, do in the future by like
spotting spotting the scams,because like another thing and
then this is something thathappened to me so many times is
(33:57):
that somebody who is preying onsomebody else's empathy they
will not give you the chance tothink about it, because the
moment you start thinking aboutit, then you're like wait a sec,
didn't they say so?
It's always going to besomething about like my mom has
cancer and she needs help.
Now, if I don't get this, thenI'm going to be homeless
(34:19):
tomorrow.
Being able to spot that becausechances are like cancer is, is
something, is not just like youknow, like one day you don't
have cancer, then the next dayyou're, you're at stage four.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
Yeah, like we, we, we knew that mom had cancer before
, at stage four.
Yeah, we knew that mom hadcancer before.
This did not just suddenlyoccur to us at 10.30 PM that
we're like, oh, my mother hascancer.
I should do something aboutthat.
No, the other thing that Iwould add for where do we go
from here is for people who arelike no, I have the right amount
of empathy, not too much, nottoo little.
(34:57):
Take a look at your friends.
Check in on your friends.
Like you know that one personwho always says yes, that one
person who's like, always therefor you, like no matter what,
like always, like always, always.
Maybe check in on them.
Maybe ask yourself when was thelast time that you did
something for them on them?
(35:18):
Maybe ask yourself when was thelast time that you did
something for them?
Maybe don't ask them the oneperson who always does the
office party and always does thethis and always does that.
Maybe don't ask them this year.
Maybe ask somebody else.
That's something I think that wecould all do a better job of is
making sure that you're notalways falling back on that
person who you're like.
But Bob does it.
Bob always says yes, bob isalways there for me, bob's
(35:40):
always.
You know, if I need to talk, Ineed to do this, like I.
You know this is the personthat I go to.
Burnout is real and emotionalburnout is real, and they may
not be able to tell you this,and so you actively working to
not put too much on them and tocheck in on them is probably a
good thing.
Speaker 2 (35:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
Yes.
With that being said, wherewould you place having too much
empathy and, I guess, sympathy?
Well, empathy is a bigger issue.
On our scale of toxicity, wouldyou say that this is a green
potato?
They give you a stomachache ifyou eat it, but if you just
scrape it off it's fine.
Is this a death cap mushroom,50-50 chance of death or coma?
(36:25):
Or is this a delicious butdeadly last snack, especially?
Speaker 2 (36:33):
when mixed with lime jello and a freeze.
I would say that this is apretty solid death cap, because
somebody not that I know ofanybody like this, but somebody
with too much empathy is alwaysgoing to put the other person
first, down to the fact that theproblem that they're trying to
(36:56):
solve ends up becoming their ownproblem.
So, like the whole um, I needmoney for this, or I need money
for I need money, or else I'mgonna be homeless and then
getting down to the point whereit's like, oh shit, I need money
, or else I'm gonna be homeless.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
And how quickly the other person is just like oh God
, yeah, you were there for them,but they weren't there for you.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
Yeah, exactly so I, I , you know, I think that it is
definitely something that Icould kill somebody.
But you know, like too muchempathy again, there there's
various degrees.
Like maybe you have a littlebit too much, maybe maybe you're
kind of like, you know, uh,maybe you should just like kind
(37:41):
of back off of things, maybe allthe way to.
Yeah, dude, you, you gotta stopfucking giving other people
benefit of the doubt because nowyou're going to fucking put
yourself in shit again.
Like not that I know anybodylike that.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
No, I don, I know anybody like that no, I don't
know anybody like that either,but I would agree with you that
this is probably a death cap,that while I don't think that
there are tons of people out inthe world that have too much
(38:17):
empathy, there are, there aredefinitely people out there in
the world who have too muchempathy.
I know multiple people in mylife who I'm like.
You know you've gotten yourselfinto some sticky situations
because you wanted to help.
You genuinely wanted to help,and in your desire to help I see
(38:38):
you, I was trying to ignore you, but in your desire to help
other people, you forgot aboutyourself and you also didn't
have the skills to kind of putup that boundary and be like,
hey, I've helped you up tillthis point, that is all I can do
If you need more help.
(39:00):
You got to go someplace elseand at the very least, like okay
, maybe you've quote unquotelost a little something in there
if that person was takingadvantage of you.
But you had that kind of upperlimit of like I don't go beyond
this.
I've known people who just Iknow people currently who will
just keep going because theyreally, really want to, and, as
(39:22):
you said, it has a huge rangefrom just a little bit to
somebody who potentially couldand thankfully I don't know
anyone who like it's gotten tothis level but like you could
end up homeless.
You could end up like in areally bad, just general
financial situation.
You could end up in liketrouble with the law because
(39:43):
you've now like gone out andyou've done this and you've
helped this person and done that.
It's like, ooh, that person waslike fucking around with
something and now you'reinvolved in it.
You really do have to be careful, as the person who has a lot of
empathy like acknowledging thatand so, while it's not a sheer
numbers problem, it has thatpotential to like get bad
(40:06):
quickly, yep.
So if you would like to shareany stories about having too
much empathy or too littleempathy, you can write to us at
toxic.
At awesome life skillscom.
You can find us maybesemi-actively, depending on the
week and how I'm feeling onFacebook, instagram and blue sky
(40:30):
.
Uh, you can technically find uson X threads and tick tock, but
I don't control those accounts,so I do control.
X I just don't want to go on Xright now.
It's it's nobody needs to be onthere, so until next week.
(40:52):
This has been the toxic cookingshow.
Bye.
Speaker 2 (40:56):
Bye, bye.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!