September 16, 2025 • 31 mins
In this engaging podcast episode, Doron and Elizabeth Harrin discuss the complexities of project management in today's fast-paced environment. They explore the evolution of the Rebel's Guide to Project Management, the challenges of managing multiple projects, and the impact of AI on the role of project managers. Elizabeth shares insights on prioritization, stakeholder engagement, and the importance of emotional intelligence in fostering effective team dynamics. The conversation emphasizes the need for adaptability, creativity, and proactive strategies in navigating the ever-changing landscape of project management.Takeaways
- The Rebel's Guide started as a platform to amplify women's voices in project management.
- Managing multiple projects requires a shift in mindset and techniques.
- AI can automate mundane tasks, allowing PMs to focus on strategic roles.
- Prioritization is often poorly executed in organizations, leading to chaos.
- Creating visibility around workloads helps in effective prioritization.
- Stakeholder engagement is crucial for project success and requires active communication.
- Emotional intelligence is essential for building trust and rapport within teams.
- Setting boundaries and protecting time for deep work is vital for PMs.
- Informal connections can enhance team dynamics and collaboration.
- The landscape of project management is evolving with new tools and methodologies.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Project Management and Elizabeth Harrin
03:26 The Evolution of the Rebel's Guide to Project Management
06:10 Managing Multiple Projects: Insights and Strategies
09:05 The Role of AI in Project Management
11:53 Prioritization: A Core Survival Skill for PMs
14:36 Protecting Time for Deep Work
17:21 Stakeholder Engagement: Building Relationships
20:11 Emotional Intelligence in Project Management
23:08 Conclusion and Resources
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:09):
Welcome to another episode of TPM Ridge, the podcast where we
bring in industry leaders in technical program management to
share their insights, experiences, and the lessons
they've learned on the front lines of the TPM movement.
I'm your host, Darren Katz, and each week we dive in deep into
the methodologies, mindsets, andtools that will empower you to
drive excellence in technical program management.
(00:31):
Whether you're new to TPM or looking to take your skills to
the next level, this podcast is your go to resource for
transforming TPM principles intoreal world success.
Today's podcasts will be thriving in real world project
management, balancing people, projects and a changing
(00:53):
landscape. We will talk about real world PM
ING the art and science of balancing people and projects,
and in particular in today's challenging landscape.
I'm thrilled to welcome Elizabeth Herron, an
award-winning author, speaker, and the creator of Rebels Guide
to Project Management. You're probably on that
subscription list. If not, you should be.
But she's also authored several books, including Managing
(01:18):
Multiple Projects and Engaging Stakeholders, and she's a fellow
of the Associate Association of Project Management.
So welcome, welcome to the podcast.
Thank you very much for having me here.
Yes, yes, we're all excited to have you on here.
And so yeah, let's talk quickly a bit about Rebels guide.
So that blog so your journey getting started with Rebels
(01:40):
Guide blog. You've been a strong voice in
project management space for a long time.
So what inspired you to get started with Rebels Guide to to
PM ING? Well, it wasn't called Rebels
guide when it first started because I it was called Girls
Guide to Project Management and I was the girl and it was my
guide to project management. And we, we changed the name or a
(02:00):
few years ago now because I'm getting older, didn't feel like
it was such a, a reflection of the, the world out out there as
well either. When I started writing, I was in
a team where predominantly the project management team, I think
we were at least 50% women. But when you look through the
project management magazines, you look through speaker
(02:22):
brochures for conferences, womendidn't really feature as highly
or, or in the same proportion asthey did in my lived experience
of working with project managers.
And so I was thinking, well, youknow, maybe space for a bit more
of a female take on the world ofproject management and what it's
like to have this as a career asa working woman.
(02:43):
And I was also writing a book atthe time.
And as you do, you're looking athow do I reach more people?
And blogging was something that my publisher, you know, talked
about and other people were doing.
So I thought maybe I should start a blog.
So I did. And I got WordPress.
And it was in back in the day where you had to sort of edit
your files and then you had to FTP them up to the server and,
(03:05):
and all that, which is not like that today.
And yeah, it's kind of grown from there, really.
Oh yes. And so you change the name to
Rebels Guide as well. Is there is there a, there's a
suggested challenge to the status quo?
Is that, is that what you're getting at with the whole, you
know, challenging, you know, women in TPM or RPM ING and in
(03:25):
an industry in general? That's an interesting take on it
and I hadn't thought about it from women being the challenge.
I was thinking a bit more of textbook projects because I
think if I think back to the Prince 2 training or the in
house project management training I did when I first
started, it was very much here'sthe manual.
If you follow these processes, your project will be successful.
(03:46):
Just fill in these documentationartifacts and talk to some
stakeholders and this is how we do it.
And actually, if you try to, in my experience anyway, you try to
apply any particular tool or technique or methodology and it
hits the real world and you suddenly realize it doesn't
quite work like that because humans are in the mix and they
are unpredictable and political.And we have to be a lot more
(04:08):
adaptive so that the idea of being a rebel in project
management came from the idea ofbeing able to rebel in a small
way against those textbooks or that status quo.
And to be more creative, creative with the way that we
think about and apply the tools,techniques that we have to do
our job. Right.
Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah.
(04:29):
So let's move on to the topic ofmanaging multiple projects,
something TPMS are very, you know, it's very important in
their sort of day-to-day work. So you wrote a book on managing
multiple projects. Tell us a little bit about the
book. I've got it here, actually this
one. So this is the second edition.
So it came out again, not good with dates today came out a
(04:53):
couple of years ago and the the publisher asked if I would
update it in 2025 because the world has moved on and you know,
actually the employment context moves on really quickly.
Managing multiple projects as a book started out as a training
course because one of the thingsI was realizing through
mentoring and doing training wasthat all the stuff that we're
(05:14):
taught is about how to manage one project, and no one was.
And I left the workforce for a bit to have children, came back
and got a completely different portfolio.
So I went from managing 1 gigantic project down to
managing lots of smaller projects.
And the way that I managed my own work had to fundamentally
change. And I realized that pretty much
(05:35):
none of the tools and techniquesI'd learned scale in a
meaningful way because you're just trying to layer that how to
do 1 project approach on top of it, on top of another project on
top of another project, often with the same stakeholders or
the same technology or the same underlying a client or something
like that. And it just felt too much.
So I changed the way I work and I started teaching other people
(05:57):
how how I was doing that and howI was managing multiple
projects. And then that there was enough
interest in that that made me think, well, maybe, maybe I need
to write this down. And then I could reach more
people with books. So that's where that first
edition came from. And well, earlier this month
that second edition came out andthat's got more stuff in it
about sustainability and remote teams and AI, which is all much
(06:21):
more relevant to the world we'reworking in today.
Yeah, definitely remote working AI, those things are very
prevalent, you know the last couple of years that you know
and only and getting more prevalent as we move on, right.
Definitely. But it's interesting, I guess
when you first wrote that book, that probably predates TPMS or
the concept of taking a program manager.
(06:42):
So I guess the formalized role where TPMS, you know, come in
and manage multiple projects andyou know, try to scale, you
know, it's kind of you kind of maybe you kind of maybe where
the where at the start of that, before that, before that even
became a thing as a role, I guess.
Well, I did a survey and then most of the project managers I
asked were managing 2 to 5 projects and some people were
(07:04):
managing over 10. I mean, it's, it's crazy out
there. So whatever type of TPM role
you're in now, the listeners arein now you probably are juggling
multiple projects because that'sthe nature of the job, but it's
the nature of pretty much every job now.
I mean, even if you you don't have that, that oversight and
that technical governance over over multiple strands of
(07:24):
activity and you've just got thejob title of project manager or
project coordinator or even a team leader, you probably are
involved in more than one project because that's just how
organisations work. And then for those of us who are
expected to lead that and context switch between multiple
different things in a day, it can be quite exhausting.
(07:45):
Yeah, I know all. About that I know you don't have
to tell you that. Well, I wanted to circle back on
that actually, and talk about AI, but before we get to that,
so you've you've, you've, you know, you've worked at PMS, have
managed, you know, 456 projects at a time.
How do you, how do you coach them through that chaos without
(08:06):
sacrificing their sanity? How do you, you know, Or their
weekends, I guess you know. Yeah, Yeah.
I think it depends on the the project and how the projects
linked together. Because one of the things that
that I found useful and other people have found useful is
grouping your projects into buckets.
But what those buckets might be might might be a particular
(08:26):
technology or a particular platform or a particular client
or even a particular quarter if you're sort of doing quarterly
Rd. maps. So looking at how do we group so
that we can minimize the overload and manage like that.
But it's all the, all the stuff that you've probably used in
day-to-day trackers, consolidated reporting,
solidated stakeholder engagement, consolidated risk
(08:47):
management across multiple projects.
So looking at it from portfolio perspective as your own sort of
personal workload portfolio, looking ahead, delegating more,
there's lots of different techniques you can use, but it
you have got to pick and choose because there's not just a one
do this and all you're managing multiple projects will be easy.
You've got to have a toolbox of stuff to pick from.
Right. Yeah.
And I guess you know when what expectation these days is that
(09:09):
PMS will be managing multiple projects.
Do you see with the rise of AI that PMS will be expected to
take on even more? Well, that is an interesting
thought. The role of the PM, certainly in
my span, if I've been doing it over 20 years and the role has
expanded, it's much more strategic and leadershipy.
(09:29):
There's much more breadth in theprofession, which seem to
encompass more roles. We get involved earlier in
projects, so we're more involvedin business cases and scoping.
All of that is good and interesting and makes it really
fascinating career and a great job.
But yeah, AI has a big role to play.
But does that mean we do more? I think we probably just do
different, different things, like the stuff that AI can't do
(09:52):
very well yet maybe hopefully itwill never do very well like
stakeholder engagement, change management, all the comms, the
soft skills, the people, the leadership.
And I'd love to give AI all of my, you know, budget tracking,
forecasting updates, validating estimates, minutes.
Another question I asked from the survey for the book actually
(10:13):
was what task would one of the surveys I've done, what task
would you like to get rid of? And chasing for status updates
was way up There was one of the things people want to not have
to do anymore. So the more we can use AI to
automate those kind of nudges and reminders for people, the
more we'll have time to do good quality, interesting client
(10:35):
relationship staff for it or working with our internal
stakeholders. Just say yes.
So when we talked before about stakeholder management, so I
guess in other words, we kind ofsee the AI agents as more of the
junior PMS that are doing more of the nudging and things like
that. But then when it comes to the
critical soft skills, I guess of, you know, talking with
leadership, talking with gettingalignment, that's where
(10:55):
hopefully we come in and we add the value, right?
Yeah, I think so. But that does beg the question
is what happens to the junior PMS?
Because I started out as a business change analyst 20 odd
years ago. I learned, you know, what is the
raid log? I learned how to track tasks.
I manage the risks on a project because that was that was my
part of my full time job was just risk management and
(11:16):
facilitating risk workshops. So I cut my teeth learning the
very basics and the fundamentals.
And now, yes, I'm the bridge between exec leadership and
technical people and and doing that kind of stakeholder
engagement. But if we are saying ARA is
going to do all of that more sort of analyst entry level
(11:39):
work, how are we going to get pipeline of TPMS?
How are we going to get a pipeline of senior project
managers who have learnt on the job?
So I mean, it's a really interesting time to be in the
project profession and there's still lots of people who are
doing degrees in project management and they're finding
their way into into into technical and business change
(12:01):
and TPM type jobs. So I don't think we're in a
crisis just yet, but it's just interesting to see how the
field's going to evolve. Yeah, I mean, we can see
parallels in the engineering world where, you know, vibe
coding now is a thing, and engineers are, you know, junior
engineers also in a similar position where, you know, where
AI agents can kind of do what they're doing.
(12:22):
So that kind of cuts a pipe, youknow, cuts off a pipeline to the
more senior engineers. So maybe there's a similar
analogy, I guess, for us in the PM world.
Yeah. So.
So you've talked about prioritization is as a core
survival skill. Can you walk us through how
you'd sort through your own workload or coach others on
(12:45):
prioritizing what everything youknow when everything feels
important? When people tell you everything
must get done. Oh, it's, it's all important,
isn't it? Yes.
Prioritization is one of the biggest challenges.
Because my, is it all right to say I don't meet many people who
work in organizations where prioritization is done well.
And I think that's, that's such trouble because when nothing is
(13:07):
prioritized, it falls on us and we have to prioritize it
ourselves. So that's quite a difficult
position to be in. And then you have to think, you
know, who's work, who's shoutingloudest?
Am I just doing their work? Or is there a better way to
structure your time? So the way I do it, the way I
write in the book about doing it, is a big brain dump of all
the things that you're working on so that you've got a clear
(13:28):
picture of what's actually on your plate, which is your
personal portfolio. So all the active projects, all
the things you're responsible for and how much time that takes
per week. And then what you're trying to
do is make all that invisible labour visible because there's
probably things that you're doing without even thinking
about it, like coaching colleagues or facilitating
meetings or supporting engineersor whatever it is, as well as
(13:52):
doing your own actual day job. So that's giving you the basis
then for making decisions. And then there's lots of
different prioritization models you can use, like Moscow or
urgency versus importance or value versus complexity.
And the point is not to find a perfect system, but just to make
prioritization an active processrather than an assumption.
(14:13):
So rather than just assuming whatever you've got meetings
about that day is your most important thing, can you
actively, consciously make decisions about how best to use
your time? And in an ideal world, we'll be
able to say, oh, I'm 40% on thisproject, 20% on that other
project, and on Fridays I'm going to work on this.
But in reality, there'll be codeswitching and context switching
(14:33):
and multitasking for the whole week.
You can't just ring fence Fridaymorning for one particular
project. But I suppose it depends on how
much autonomy you have over yourown workload.
But once you've got that view, then share it with your team,
share it with your my manager and say, look, this is what I'm
working on. And I think one of the big
challenges that, sorry, I know that I'm going on about this,
but I think it's so important because we assume that everyone
(14:56):
else knows what we're working on.
And often, you know, I've sat down with my manager and she's
gone, Oh, really? You know, I thought that project
had finished or I hadn't realized that that client had
asked you for this, that or the other.
They don't know, especially in with remote teams because we're
in senior jobs, right? We don't, we're not
micromanaged. We wouldn't want to be, so we
have to make that visible so that other people can see and
(15:18):
then you can have a realistic conversation about, if you want
me to work on this, I can slow down this.
It means it won't be done until this month, but that might be
OK. Do we want to talk to this
person? What about if I delegated that
to this? You can have a conversation
about them, but you need to be able to see what it is.
Anyway, I feel like I've just gone and dumped all my ideas on
you. Did that answer the question?
Oh yes, well, you know, I mean, it's funny because PMS often
(15:41):
make assumptions on engineers and say, well, I assume they're
working only my project and thisand that.
When you don't know what they'reup to.
And I'm sure someone else is pulling them aside saying, well,
you know, you can do this quickly and do that quickly.
And then they kind of get pulledin different directions.
So I guess we should buy the same token.
Also be transparent and let others know what our priorities
are, what our list is and what our cut line is and and so
(16:02):
forth. What's above the line, what's
below the fold? All that stuff.
That's really helpful. The more we talk about it, the
easier it is because not everyone works on the top
priority projects, right? I mean, not my I'd love to think
that my projects were the most strategic and most important
ones in the organization. But the organizations do many
projects and they can't all be top priority.
So there needs to be a bit of a pecking order.
(16:24):
And if once you know where you are in that, it's just easier.
Yeah, no, definitely. I mean, sometimes it's made for
you. I mean, I've worked at companies
like Amazon where it's very top down.
They have what they what's called the organizational goals
and essentially there's a cut line for this organization, you
know, the top five or six. And this is what it is.
And if you go to another team, you know, you go to another team
at the start of the year and say, OK, these are my
(16:45):
priorities. What are your priorities?
Let's negotiate and kind of makesure that if my team's dependent
on your team or, or so that we align on the priorities.
And essentially once that's set,that's basically what comes sort
of the, you know, what we use asreference.
If anyone says, well, I need this or I need that, we'll say,
well, this are the goals that wehave now.
And you can negotiate and it's, it's a bit rigid, but it works,
(17:08):
you know, and I've been in companies where we don't have
that. So you kind of have to, you have
to kind of make that alignment yourself.
You kind of have to communicate what's important, what you're
working on that's important and,and, and have that, you know,
sort of navigation, I guess. So it's.
Yeah, definitely. And it might change.
I mean, it great. If you're in an organization
that fixes it for the year and you know what you're working on,
great. But most of my experience has
(17:30):
been in organizations where choices have been made
throughout the year because the business context changes or
something happens or the regulation changes or for
whatever reason, there's a new thing that's thrown at you at
some point. And you just have to go with it
really and flex and see. But it doesn't necessarily mean
saying yes to doing more becauseif more things are coming in,
you haven't got more hours in the in the day.
(17:51):
So you have to decide what stops.
Absolutely so PMS often, they often do get stuck in reactive
firefighting mode. I've certainly been in those
cases. You know, there's insists a few
times. So how do you help people
protect time for deep, proactivework, right?
We talk about protecting engineers, but protecting our
own work here, you know, especially, you know, when you
(18:12):
know the calendars. Calendars are fully booked.
Well, one thing I've been tryingto personally do more is decline
meetings because we get invited to all kinds of things.
And often we're in the meeting because we've set it up, not
necessarily because we are fundamental to the conversation.
And so it's knowing, you know, can I introduce the meeting, get
them started, make sure they're on track for the agenda, drop
(18:33):
out for the hour, then come backin maybe at at 10 to the finish
time and, and check in, make a note that someone's caught the
actions. It depends how much you trust
your team. I suppose it's whether or not
you you want to go ahead and do something like that.
But often I block out time in myown diary to do work.
So if I need a couple of hours to work through a plan or if I'm
(18:54):
doing some thinking or I'm putting together a deck or
something strategic, then I'll to block out the afternoon for
myself. Multiple projects does mean
you'll be busy. You're just going to have more
stuff in the day. But we have to set boundaries,
don't we? And maybe there's somebody else
who's more appropriate to go. Maybe you could send a written
update to the meeting. Maybe they could copy you in on
(19:16):
the minutes. Maybe you watched the recording
of the meeting back at 1.5 speedafterwards and then and then
read the AI generated meeting summary to see what you missed.
Do you have to be doing everything?
Doing everything? Yeah, that's.
Interesting. So, yeah, I mean, so you talk
about setting the environment and or setting autonomy teams to
be more autonomous and building that trust with them so that you
(19:38):
can kind of just be the facilitator, but then, you know,
be able to do what you need to do and not necessarily be there
just babysitting them, right? Yes.
And I think also you can. There's ebbs and flows, isn't
there? So on any given piece of work,
you might have to be more involved at the beginning
because there's more alignment and scoping and you're building
the team. And then once work is going on,
(19:59):
maybe there's a lighter touch there and then might, might be
at the end you get more involved.
So what I also do recommend other people do is consolidate
your schedules across multiple projects so that you're looking
at where are your busy times andwhat, how can you influence
those? Because it might mean that let's
say you've got 4 projects over the next quarter.
And then once you have a look atthe timelines, actually three of
them are all going live at the same time.
(20:20):
That might work out really well.That might be absolutely the
best thing to do, because you can consolidate testing or
something. But it might also be a really
bad idea if it if it stretches your hypercare period or your
engineers are going to have to stay up late three nights in a
row to put stuff live, whatever it is.
So what's in your gifts to be able to change?
Could you spread those out? Can you bring one forward?
(20:42):
Can you? Yeah, push one later?
Just having that forward view ofof how everything is going to
land can help you make better decisions so it doesn't feel
like you're always cramming everything in all the time.
Yeah, you mentioned before earlier, earlier question about
a response about risk assessment, I guess looking
things holistically. So yeah, that that definitely
fits there where you kind of have to look at, you know, if
(21:04):
things, if there's a risk of everything lining up for launch
at the same time or do you need to have them staggered or, you
know, will you be pulled in different directions by having
it, you know, all at once, I guess.
Yes. Well, we're recording this in
the summer, right? And we're about to hit holiday
season here in the UK. And let's say you've got one
project and an engineer's working on it and that engineer
(21:24):
is off for a week over the summer.
It's probably not that big a deal for one project.
But if they are also working on 4/4 other projects, that's five
weeks potentially of project interactions that they're
they're not doing. They're only out of the business
for one week, but they've got 5 projects to catch up on when
they come back. And catching up on one project,
you might think that that's manageable and easy.
(21:45):
Catching up on five might be more of a problem.
So is that a risk for you and your five projects or for you
and five other engineering managers who've now got to
balance all of that? So yeah, the more you can sort
of work across teams or work across projects, the better
visibility you've got. Absolutely.
Well, let's switch over to stakeholder engagement and
management. That's always a fun topic.
(22:07):
So let's in your experience, what has been the biggest
mistake that PMS have made when it comes to engaging
stakeholders? Oh, that's a good question.
I think it's about thinking thatcommunicating is the same as
engaging. And so, you know, I sent them a
newsletter, I sent them a briefing pack.
Why don't they know what's goingon?
(22:28):
Well, because they probably didn't read it.
Because everyone gets 1000 emails a day and, and nobody
reads briefing packs. And for whatever reason, if you,
you know, sending an e-mail, running a status meeting, that
doesn't mean people feel like they're idiots and are part of
it. So they need to feel heard.
They need to feel valued. They need to feel like they're
partners in the whole process and that you're not doing it to
(22:51):
them. And you mean ultimately it's not
that hard to do that, but it does take some time and we're
busy so often. I think that's the thing that
probably falls down the To Do List is that project managers do
the bare minimum in the nicest possible way.
They're doing what they can withthe time that they've got.
(23:12):
And often they don't have a lot of training in engagement and
change management anyway. But the more you can engage
effectively, you're reducing resistance to change, you're
building trust, you're getting credit in the bank for when
things go wrong later. And you need a bit of goodwill,
saving time, reducing conflict, all these things.
So if if you can, you know focusing on engagement really
(23:34):
does make a difference. That's quite profound, actually.
You know, Once Upon a time I was, you know, a scrub master or
you know, work with a couple of engineers and if you kind of
notice one of the engineers is pretty quiet or doesn't
contribute much, it's kind of gives you an interesting signal,
you know, data point that maybe you need to kind of see if a
person's feeling undervalued or not contributing for whatever
(23:57):
reason that is. And similar thing working with
other stakeholders, with other managers, directors and stuff
like that. So communicating this one thing,
but being able to have them engaging you and you engaging
them and having a two way collaboration, that's what you
need to get to, right? Definitely.
And I think and the longer you've been in your
organization, the easier it is because you kind of have that
(24:17):
internal network down and you know who to talk to and you have
a bit of sort of credibility that you bring with you when you
start a new piece of work. But even if you're new to an
organization or you're contracting, you have to start
building that from day one. Yeah.
Absolutely. I hope folks listening you take
that to heart. You know, I mean, a lot of us,
you know, like me, for example, in the TPM space, we, we sort of
(24:39):
as engineers. So we don't really have a lot of
that soft skills that we kind ofsort of get trained on.
So we mostly, you know, with ourheadphones on coding and stuff
like that. As soon as we become engineering
managers or TPMS, then, you know, we have to learn to work
with stakeholders and be more engaging.
So that's a good skill to learn and, and, and, and build.
(25:00):
Well, what's your, what's your process for identifying real
stakeholders early on, right? So when you sort of start the
project, you know, not just looking at people in the org
chart, but you know, the influencers quite blockers,
right? Because when you mentioned
before, you know the previous question about, you know,
response about, you know, peoplethere but not really
contributing, I guess you're notquite sure what, who they are,
(25:20):
what they do. I think the easiest thing is to
ask like who else? Ask the people that you know,
who else needs to be involved inthis project.
And I think that's where having a mentor or, you know, if you're
an engineering manager, going toyour TPM and saying, who should
I be involving in this project and using the, the wisdom of the
organization, because, you know,I've forgotten stakeholders on
(25:40):
projects and it being quite late, or, you know, the people
who typically get forgotten are the departments on the
periphery. I forgot the post room once.
I forgot the information security, which was not a not a
good thing to try to have to rush around and, and it involved
them late in late in the day. So there's, you know, the things
that you learn from experience that you can be passing on to to
(26:02):
your colleagues. But the other thing that helps
is looking at who's working on your other projects.
So multi stakeholder map is something else that is a useful
tool to think about who's involved across several
initiatives. And often those people are the
influencers because they have subject matter expertise that
stretches across multiple areas.Then you can do that stakeholder
analysis looking yes, OK, at their role on the org chart, but
(26:25):
also at their attitude. So are they resistant to change?
Are they resistant to the projects?
Are they indifferent? Are they supportive?
Are they really proactive? Because sometimes those people
are the biggest blockers are thepeople who just never show up so
that they're the people who are not engaged with the process at
all. And how do you bring them on
board? So it's I'm making it sound like
(26:45):
it's a bit political, but it is understanding that the business
context and the landscape and the the quiet power structures
that don't appear on the org chart.
Yeah, no, absolutely. And you know, there's a, there's
a term or a phrase that Amazon we use as dogs not barking,
which basically means that, you know, doesn't mean that it's all
great because we're not hearing any dogs barking.
(27:07):
It probably means that somethingis wrong.
So yes, that might be a sense that you kind of have to get.
Yeah, well, actually that that kind of is a good segue to
empathy, right. So you talk about the people
sides or empathetic human side. You know, I think people call it
EQ these days, but how can PMS improve their emotional
(27:27):
intelligence skill in a technical environment?
Well, I think don't get daunted about it.
I mean, I think if you're a listener and you've, you're in a
very technical role and you're an engineer and you're thinking,
or I've never had any training on this, it's not that hard.
I mean, you listen to your family, you listen to your kids,
right? So it's, you know, it's we're
not doing anything different than we would do in normal life
(27:48):
to be a nice human being. So one thing that you can do
that's very easy is to create some space for informal
connection. So maybe that is your Friday
stand up becomes not about work,but about sharing something
you're doing at the weekend, forexample, or there's building in
some time for small talk or, or check insurance or sending a
thank you message to somebody. And just trying to think of
(28:08):
somebody different to send a thank you to your message each
week. And those small moments that
they'll trust and show people that you're caring about them
and that you're thinking about them.
And vocabulary, even that, having a shared vocabulary,
making sure everyone understandswhat you're talking about and if
it's different, making sure you're taking time to explain
(28:28):
and sit with them and help them come up to speed with the jargon
that you're using for this particular initiative.
So yeah. And it's just taking time to
think, if something's gone wrong, how are people going to
be feeling? Are they overloaded?
Are they frustrated? You mentioned someone feeling
like they were undervalued earlier.
And there's signals that we can pick up on.
And even if you you're trying topick up on it and you might not
(28:49):
have got it right, often people will just be appreciative of the
fact that you thought of them and you reached out.
I've just read a good book, actually.
Vanessa Drewskat wrote a book onEQ for teams.
So that's got loads of ideas in about how you can actively bring
more emotional intelligence intoa team environment.
Right. Yeah.
I mean, we can probably do a whole podcast on that, which is
(29:13):
we should definitely can fill upa lot of, you know, airwaves of
time on that. But definitely.
Yeah, yeah, I know it's, you know, maybe, you know, in a
revision of your book, I might even talk about, we talk about
remote working. There might be some information
give us on how to have build EQ or build empathy, you know,
remotely, I guess you know, all that.
(29:33):
So yeah. Well, it's out for the third
edition. Absolutely.
Well, cool. We've we've come at the to the
end of our podcast, but you knowwhere can lists find your books,
templates and trainings? Probably the easiest place to
get started is project management.
Rebels.com or you can find me onLinkedIn and people can always
(29:55):
reach out and connect with me there.
Oh, absolutely. We'll we'll definitely post the
links on the podcast descriptionas well as you know, you can you
can find it here in the show notes as well.
So, any exciting new projects onthe horizon for you?
I'm working on some new trainingmaterials on program management
actually, so you can people can join my mailing list to hear
(30:18):
about that when that's ready. That's Rebels guide to
pm.com/newsletter I think, and I'll write out and I'll let you
know when it's ready. I said, well, for those folks
who are, you know, it's summer over here, I guess, well, in the
Northern Hemisphere, you know, if you want to have some, I
don't know if it'll be ready, you know, sometime in summer,
but definitely use the summer toread up.
And I'm sure they can find, you know, some of your books.
(30:38):
They can pick up some of your books and do some reading over
summer. Brush up on on different areas
as well. So we really appreciate you
coming on the show. It's been really great.
You know, please jump onto the website Rebels guide to
twopm.com. We'll post your links to your
books and you know, a great place for them to get no
(31:01):
nonsense advice on, you know, how to work in the business.
So been a really engaging conversation.
I appreciate it. Oh, thank you so much for having
me on the show. Absolutely enjoy the rest of the
summer and thank you very much. Thank you.
Welcome to another episode of TPM Ridge, the podcast where we
bring in industry leaders in technical program management to
share their insights, experiences, and the lessons
they've learned on the front lines of the TPM movement.
I'm your host, Darren Katz, and each week we dive in deep into
the methodologies, mindsets, andtools that will empower you to
drive excellence in technical program management.
(00:31):
Whether you're new to TPM or looking to take your skills to
the next level, this podcast is your go to resource for
transforming TPM principles intoreal world success.
Today's podcasts will be thriving in real world project
management, balancing people, projects and a changing
(00:53):
landscape. We will talk about real world PM
ING the art and science of balancing people and projects,
and in particular in today's challenging landscape.
I'm thrilled to welcome Elizabeth Herron, an
award-winning author, speaker, and the creator of Rebels Guide
to Project Management. You're probably on that
subscription list. If not, you should be.
But she's also authored several books, including Managing
(01:18):
Multiple Projects and Engaging Stakeholders, and she's a fellow
of the Associate Association of Project Management.
So welcome, welcome to the podcast.
Thank you very much for having me here.
Yes, yes, we're all excited to have you on here.
And so yeah, let's talk quickly a bit about Rebels guide.
So that blog so your journey getting started with Rebels
(01:40):
Guide blog. You've been a strong voice in
project management space for a long time.
So what inspired you to get started with Rebels Guide to to
PM ING? Well, it wasn't called Rebels
guide when it first started because I it was called Girls
Guide to Project Management and I was the girl and it was my
guide to project management. And we, we changed the name or a
(02:00):
few years ago now because I'm getting older, didn't feel like
it was such a, a reflection of the, the world out out there as
well either. When I started writing, I was in
a team where predominantly the project management team, I think
we were at least 50% women. But when you look through the
project management magazines, you look through speaker
(02:22):
brochures for conferences, womendidn't really feature as highly
or, or in the same proportion asthey did in my lived experience
of working with project managers.
And so I was thinking, well, youknow, maybe space for a bit more
of a female take on the world ofproject management and what it's
like to have this as a career asa working woman.
(02:43):
And I was also writing a book atthe time.
And as you do, you're looking athow do I reach more people?
And blogging was something that my publisher, you know, talked
about and other people were doing.
So I thought maybe I should start a blog.
So I did. And I got WordPress.
And it was in back in the day where you had to sort of edit
your files and then you had to FTP them up to the server and,
(03:05):
and all that, which is not like that today.
And yeah, it's kind of grown from there, really.
Oh yes. And so you change the name to
Rebels Guide as well. Is there is there a, there's a
suggested challenge to the status quo?
Is that, is that what you're getting at with the whole, you
know, challenging, you know, women in TPM or RPM ING and in
(03:25):
an industry in general? That's an interesting take on it
and I hadn't thought about it from women being the challenge.
I was thinking a bit more of textbook projects because I
think if I think back to the Prince 2 training or the in
house project management training I did when I first
started, it was very much here'sthe manual.
If you follow these processes, your project will be successful.
(03:46):
Just fill in these documentationartifacts and talk to some
stakeholders and this is how we do it.
And actually, if you try to, in my experience anyway, you try to
apply any particular tool or technique or methodology and it
hits the real world and you suddenly realize it doesn't
quite work like that because humans are in the mix and they
are unpredictable and political.And we have to be a lot more
(04:08):
adaptive so that the idea of being a rebel in project
management came from the idea ofbeing able to rebel in a small
way against those textbooks or that status quo.
And to be more creative, creative with the way that we
think about and apply the tools,techniques that we have to do
our job. Right.
Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah.
(04:29):
So let's move on to the topic ofmanaging multiple projects,
something TPMS are very, you know, it's very important in
their sort of day-to-day work. So you wrote a book on managing
multiple projects. Tell us a little bit about the
book. I've got it here, actually this
one. So this is the second edition.
So it came out again, not good with dates today came out a
(04:53):
couple of years ago and the the publisher asked if I would
update it in 2025 because the world has moved on and you know,
actually the employment context moves on really quickly.
Managing multiple projects as a book started out as a training
course because one of the thingsI was realizing through
mentoring and doing training wasthat all the stuff that we're
(05:14):
taught is about how to manage one project, and no one was.
And I left the workforce for a bit to have children, came back
and got a completely different portfolio.
So I went from managing 1 gigantic project down to
managing lots of smaller projects.
And the way that I managed my own work had to fundamentally
change. And I realized that pretty much
(05:35):
none of the tools and techniquesI'd learned scale in a
meaningful way because you're just trying to layer that how to
do 1 project approach on top of it, on top of another project on
top of another project, often with the same stakeholders or
the same technology or the same underlying a client or something
like that. And it just felt too much.
So I changed the way I work and I started teaching other people
(05:57):
how how I was doing that and howI was managing multiple
projects. And then that there was enough
interest in that that made me think, well, maybe, maybe I need
to write this down. And then I could reach more
people with books. So that's where that first
edition came from. And well, earlier this month
that second edition came out andthat's got more stuff in it
about sustainability and remote teams and AI, which is all much
(06:21):
more relevant to the world we'reworking in today.
Yeah, definitely remote working AI, those things are very
prevalent, you know the last couple of years that you know
and only and getting more prevalent as we move on, right.
Definitely. But it's interesting, I guess
when you first wrote that book, that probably predates TPMS or
the concept of taking a program manager.
(06:42):
So I guess the formalized role where TPMS, you know, come in
and manage multiple projects andyou know, try to scale, you
know, it's kind of you kind of maybe you kind of maybe where
the where at the start of that, before that, before that even
became a thing as a role, I guess.
Well, I did a survey and then most of the project managers I
asked were managing 2 to 5 projects and some people were
(07:04):
managing over 10. I mean, it's, it's crazy out
there. So whatever type of TPM role
you're in now, the listeners arein now you probably are juggling
multiple projects because that'sthe nature of the job, but it's
the nature of pretty much every job now.
I mean, even if you you don't have that, that oversight and
that technical governance over over multiple strands of
(07:24):
activity and you've just got thejob title of project manager or
project coordinator or even a team leader, you probably are
involved in more than one project because that's just how
organisations work. And then for those of us who are
expected to lead that and context switch between multiple
different things in a day, it can be quite exhausting.
(07:45):
Yeah, I know all. About that I know you don't have
to tell you that. Well, I wanted to circle back on
that actually, and talk about AI, but before we get to that,
so you've you've, you've, you know, you've worked at PMS, have
managed, you know, 456 projects at a time.
How do you, how do you coach them through that chaos without
(08:06):
sacrificing their sanity? How do you, you know, Or their
weekends, I guess you know. Yeah, Yeah.
I think it depends on the the project and how the projects
linked together. Because one of the things that
that I found useful and other people have found useful is
grouping your projects into buckets.
But what those buckets might be might might be a particular
(08:26):
technology or a particular platform or a particular client
or even a particular quarter if you're sort of doing quarterly
Rd. maps. So looking at how do we group so
that we can minimize the overload and manage like that.
But it's all the, all the stuff that you've probably used in
day-to-day trackers, consolidated reporting,
solidated stakeholder engagement, consolidated risk
(08:47):
management across multiple projects.
So looking at it from portfolio perspective as your own sort of
personal workload portfolio, looking ahead, delegating more,
there's lots of different techniques you can use, but it
you have got to pick and choose because there's not just a one
do this and all you're managing multiple projects will be easy.
You've got to have a toolbox of stuff to pick from.
Right. Yeah.
And I guess you know when what expectation these days is that
(09:09):
PMS will be managing multiple projects.
Do you see with the rise of AI that PMS will be expected to
take on even more? Well, that is an interesting
thought. The role of the PM, certainly in
my span, if I've been doing it over 20 years and the role has
expanded, it's much more strategic and leadershipy.
(09:29):
There's much more breadth in theprofession, which seem to
encompass more roles. We get involved earlier in
projects, so we're more involvedin business cases and scoping.
All of that is good and interesting and makes it really
fascinating career and a great job.
But yeah, AI has a big role to play.
But does that mean we do more? I think we probably just do
different, different things, like the stuff that AI can't do
(09:52):
very well yet maybe hopefully itwill never do very well like
stakeholder engagement, change management, all the comms, the
soft skills, the people, the leadership.
And I'd love to give AI all of my, you know, budget tracking,
forecasting updates, validating estimates, minutes.
Another question I asked from the survey for the book actually
(10:13):
was what task would one of the surveys I've done, what task
would you like to get rid of? And chasing for status updates
was way up There was one of the things people want to not have
to do anymore. So the more we can use AI to
automate those kind of nudges and reminders for people, the
more we'll have time to do good quality, interesting client
(10:35):
relationship staff for it or working with our internal
stakeholders. Just say yes.
So when we talked before about stakeholder management, so I
guess in other words, we kind ofsee the AI agents as more of the
junior PMS that are doing more of the nudging and things like
that. But then when it comes to the
critical soft skills, I guess of, you know, talking with
leadership, talking with gettingalignment, that's where
(10:55):
hopefully we come in and we add the value, right?
Yeah, I think so. But that does beg the question
is what happens to the junior PMS?
Because I started out as a business change analyst 20 odd
years ago. I learned, you know, what is the
raid log? I learned how to track tasks.
I manage the risks on a project because that was that was my
part of my full time job was just risk management and
(11:16):
facilitating risk workshops. So I cut my teeth learning the
very basics and the fundamentals.
And now, yes, I'm the bridge between exec leadership and
technical people and and doing that kind of stakeholder
engagement. But if we are saying ARA is
going to do all of that more sort of analyst entry level
(11:39):
work, how are we going to get pipeline of TPMS?
How are we going to get a pipeline of senior project
managers who have learnt on the job?
So I mean, it's a really interesting time to be in the
project profession and there's still lots of people who are
doing degrees in project management and they're finding
their way into into into technical and business change
(12:01):
and TPM type jobs. So I don't think we're in a
crisis just yet, but it's just interesting to see how the
field's going to evolve. Yeah, I mean, we can see
parallels in the engineering world where, you know, vibe
coding now is a thing, and engineers are, you know, junior
engineers also in a similar position where, you know, where
AI agents can kind of do what they're doing.
(12:22):
So that kind of cuts a pipe, youknow, cuts off a pipeline to the
more senior engineers. So maybe there's a similar
analogy, I guess, for us in the PM world.
Yeah. So.
So you've talked about prioritization is as a core
survival skill. Can you walk us through how
you'd sort through your own workload or coach others on
(12:45):
prioritizing what everything youknow when everything feels
important? When people tell you everything
must get done. Oh, it's, it's all important,
isn't it? Yes.
Prioritization is one of the biggest challenges.
Because my, is it all right to say I don't meet many people who
work in organizations where prioritization is done well.
And I think that's, that's such trouble because when nothing is
(13:07):
prioritized, it falls on us and we have to prioritize it
ourselves. So that's quite a difficult
position to be in. And then you have to think, you
know, who's work, who's shoutingloudest?
Am I just doing their work? Or is there a better way to
structure your time? So the way I do it, the way I
write in the book about doing it, is a big brain dump of all
the things that you're working on so that you've got a clear
(13:28):
picture of what's actually on your plate, which is your
personal portfolio. So all the active projects, all
the things you're responsible for and how much time that takes
per week. And then what you're trying to
do is make all that invisible labour visible because there's
probably things that you're doing without even thinking
about it, like coaching colleagues or facilitating
meetings or supporting engineersor whatever it is, as well as
(13:52):
doing your own actual day job. So that's giving you the basis
then for making decisions. And then there's lots of
different prioritization models you can use, like Moscow or
urgency versus importance or value versus complexity.
And the point is not to find a perfect system, but just to make
prioritization an active processrather than an assumption.
(14:13):
So rather than just assuming whatever you've got meetings
about that day is your most important thing, can you
actively, consciously make decisions about how best to use
your time? And in an ideal world, we'll be
able to say, oh, I'm 40% on thisproject, 20% on that other
project, and on Fridays I'm going to work on this.
But in reality, there'll be codeswitching and context switching
(14:33):
and multitasking for the whole week.
You can't just ring fence Fridaymorning for one particular
project. But I suppose it depends on how
much autonomy you have over yourown workload.
But once you've got that view, then share it with your team,
share it with your my manager and say, look, this is what I'm
working on. And I think one of the big
challenges that, sorry, I know that I'm going on about this,
but I think it's so important because we assume that everyone
(14:56):
else knows what we're working on.
And often, you know, I've sat down with my manager and she's
gone, Oh, really? You know, I thought that project
had finished or I hadn't realized that that client had
asked you for this, that or the other.
They don't know, especially in with remote teams because we're
in senior jobs, right? We don't, we're not
micromanaged. We wouldn't want to be, so we
have to make that visible so that other people can see and
(15:18):
then you can have a realistic conversation about, if you want
me to work on this, I can slow down this.
It means it won't be done until this month, but that might be
OK. Do we want to talk to this
person? What about if I delegated that
to this? You can have a conversation
about them, but you need to be able to see what it is.
Anyway, I feel like I've just gone and dumped all my ideas on
you. Did that answer the question?
Oh yes, well, you know, I mean, it's funny because PMS often
(15:41):
make assumptions on engineers and say, well, I assume they're
working only my project and thisand that.
When you don't know what they'reup to.
And I'm sure someone else is pulling them aside saying, well,
you know, you can do this quickly and do that quickly.
And then they kind of get pulledin different directions.
So I guess we should buy the same token.
Also be transparent and let others know what our priorities
are, what our list is and what our cut line is and and so
(16:02):
forth. What's above the line, what's
below the fold? All that stuff.
That's really helpful. The more we talk about it, the
easier it is because not everyone works on the top
priority projects, right? I mean, not my I'd love to think
that my projects were the most strategic and most important
ones in the organization. But the organizations do many
projects and they can't all be top priority.
So there needs to be a bit of a pecking order.
(16:24):
And if once you know where you are in that, it's just easier.
Yeah, no, definitely. I mean, sometimes it's made for
you. I mean, I've worked at companies
like Amazon where it's very top down.
They have what they what's called the organizational goals
and essentially there's a cut line for this organization, you
know, the top five or six. And this is what it is.
And if you go to another team, you know, you go to another team
at the start of the year and say, OK, these are my
(16:45):
priorities. What are your priorities?
Let's negotiate and kind of makesure that if my team's dependent
on your team or, or so that we align on the priorities.
And essentially once that's set,that's basically what comes sort
of the, you know, what we use asreference.
If anyone says, well, I need this or I need that, we'll say,
well, this are the goals that wehave now.
And you can negotiate and it's, it's a bit rigid, but it works,
(17:08):
you know, and I've been in companies where we don't have
that. So you kind of have to, you have
to kind of make that alignment yourself.
You kind of have to communicate what's important, what you're
working on that's important and,and, and have that, you know,
sort of navigation, I guess. So it's.
Yeah, definitely. And it might change.
I mean, it great. If you're in an organization
that fixes it for the year and you know what you're working on,
great. But most of my experience has
(17:30):
been in organizations where choices have been made
throughout the year because the business context changes or
something happens or the regulation changes or for
whatever reason, there's a new thing that's thrown at you at
some point. And you just have to go with it
really and flex and see. But it doesn't necessarily mean
saying yes to doing more becauseif more things are coming in,
you haven't got more hours in the in the day.
(17:51):
So you have to decide what stops.
Absolutely so PMS often, they often do get stuck in reactive
firefighting mode. I've certainly been in those
cases. You know, there's insists a few
times. So how do you help people
protect time for deep, proactivework, right?
We talk about protecting engineers, but protecting our
own work here, you know, especially, you know, when you
(18:12):
know the calendars. Calendars are fully booked.
Well, one thing I've been tryingto personally do more is decline
meetings because we get invited to all kinds of things.
And often we're in the meeting because we've set it up, not
necessarily because we are fundamental to the conversation.
And so it's knowing, you know, can I introduce the meeting, get
them started, make sure they're on track for the agenda, drop
(18:33):
out for the hour, then come backin maybe at at 10 to the finish
time and, and check in, make a note that someone's caught the
actions. It depends how much you trust
your team. I suppose it's whether or not
you you want to go ahead and do something like that.
But often I block out time in myown diary to do work.
So if I need a couple of hours to work through a plan or if I'm
(18:54):
doing some thinking or I'm putting together a deck or
something strategic, then I'll to block out the afternoon for
myself. Multiple projects does mean
you'll be busy. You're just going to have more
stuff in the day. But we have to set boundaries,
don't we? And maybe there's somebody else
who's more appropriate to go. Maybe you could send a written
update to the meeting. Maybe they could copy you in on
(19:16):
the minutes. Maybe you watched the recording
of the meeting back at 1.5 speedafterwards and then and then
read the AI generated meeting summary to see what you missed.
Do you have to be doing everything?
Doing everything? Yeah, that's.
Interesting. So, yeah, I mean, so you talk
about setting the environment and or setting autonomy teams to
be more autonomous and building that trust with them so that you
(19:38):
can kind of just be the facilitator, but then, you know,
be able to do what you need to do and not necessarily be there
just babysitting them, right? Yes.
And I think also you can. There's ebbs and flows, isn't
there? So on any given piece of work,
you might have to be more involved at the beginning
because there's more alignment and scoping and you're building
the team. And then once work is going on,
(19:59):
maybe there's a lighter touch there and then might, might be
at the end you get more involved.
So what I also do recommend other people do is consolidate
your schedules across multiple projects so that you're looking
at where are your busy times andwhat, how can you influence
those? Because it might mean that let's
say you've got 4 projects over the next quarter.
And then once you have a look atthe timelines, actually three of
them are all going live at the same time.
(20:20):
That might work out really well.That might be absolutely the
best thing to do, because you can consolidate testing or
something. But it might also be a really
bad idea if it if it stretches your hypercare period or your
engineers are going to have to stay up late three nights in a
row to put stuff live, whatever it is.
So what's in your gifts to be able to change?
Could you spread those out? Can you bring one forward?
(20:42):
Can you? Yeah, push one later?
Just having that forward view ofof how everything is going to
land can help you make better decisions so it doesn't feel
like you're always cramming everything in all the time.
Yeah, you mentioned before earlier, earlier question about
a response about risk assessment, I guess looking
things holistically. So yeah, that that definitely
fits there where you kind of have to look at, you know, if
(21:04):
things, if there's a risk of everything lining up for launch
at the same time or do you need to have them staggered or, you
know, will you be pulled in different directions by having
it, you know, all at once, I guess.
Yes. Well, we're recording this in
the summer, right? And we're about to hit holiday
season here in the UK. And let's say you've got one
project and an engineer's working on it and that engineer
(21:24):
is off for a week over the summer.
It's probably not that big a deal for one project.
But if they are also working on 4/4 other projects, that's five
weeks potentially of project interactions that they're
they're not doing. They're only out of the business
for one week, but they've got 5 projects to catch up on when
they come back. And catching up on one project,
you might think that that's manageable and easy.
(21:45):
Catching up on five might be more of a problem.
So is that a risk for you and your five projects or for you
and five other engineering managers who've now got to
balance all of that? So yeah, the more you can sort
of work across teams or work across projects, the better
visibility you've got. Absolutely.
Well, let's switch over to stakeholder engagement and
management. That's always a fun topic.
(22:07):
So let's in your experience, what has been the biggest
mistake that PMS have made when it comes to engaging
stakeholders? Oh, that's a good question.
I think it's about thinking thatcommunicating is the same as
engaging. And so, you know, I sent them a
newsletter, I sent them a briefing pack.
Why don't they know what's goingon?
(22:28):
Well, because they probably didn't read it.
Because everyone gets 1000 emails a day and, and nobody
reads briefing packs. And for whatever reason, if you,
you know, sending an e-mail, running a status meeting, that
doesn't mean people feel like they're idiots and are part of
it. So they need to feel heard.
They need to feel valued. They need to feel like they're
partners in the whole process and that you're not doing it to
(22:51):
them. And you mean ultimately it's not
that hard to do that, but it does take some time and we're
busy so often. I think that's the thing that
probably falls down the To Do List is that project managers do
the bare minimum in the nicest possible way.
They're doing what they can withthe time that they've got.
(23:12):
And often they don't have a lot of training in engagement and
change management anyway. But the more you can engage
effectively, you're reducing resistance to change, you're
building trust, you're getting credit in the bank for when
things go wrong later. And you need a bit of goodwill,
saving time, reducing conflict, all these things.
So if if you can, you know focusing on engagement really
(23:34):
does make a difference. That's quite profound, actually.
You know, Once Upon a time I was, you know, a scrub master or
you know, work with a couple of engineers and if you kind of
notice one of the engineers is pretty quiet or doesn't
contribute much, it's kind of gives you an interesting signal,
you know, data point that maybe you need to kind of see if a
person's feeling undervalued or not contributing for whatever
(23:57):
reason that is. And similar thing working with
other stakeholders, with other managers, directors and stuff
like that. So communicating this one thing,
but being able to have them engaging you and you engaging
them and having a two way collaboration, that's what you
need to get to, right? Definitely.
And I think and the longer you've been in your
organization, the easier it is because you kind of have that
(24:17):
internal network down and you know who to talk to and you have
a bit of sort of credibility that you bring with you when you
start a new piece of work. But even if you're new to an
organization or you're contracting, you have to start
building that from day one. Yeah.
Absolutely. I hope folks listening you take
that to heart. You know, I mean, a lot of us,
you know, like me, for example, in the TPM space, we, we sort of
(24:39):
as engineers. So we don't really have a lot of
that soft skills that we kind ofsort of get trained on.
So we mostly, you know, with ourheadphones on coding and stuff
like that. As soon as we become engineering
managers or TPMS, then, you know, we have to learn to work
with stakeholders and be more engaging.
So that's a good skill to learn and, and, and, and build.
(25:00):
Well, what's your, what's your process for identifying real
stakeholders early on, right? So when you sort of start the
project, you know, not just looking at people in the org
chart, but you know, the influencers quite blockers,
right? Because when you mentioned
before, you know the previous question about, you know,
response about, you know, peoplethere but not really
contributing, I guess you're notquite sure what, who they are,
(25:20):
what they do. I think the easiest thing is to
ask like who else? Ask the people that you know,
who else needs to be involved inthis project.
And I think that's where having a mentor or, you know, if you're
an engineering manager, going toyour TPM and saying, who should
I be involving in this project and using the, the wisdom of the
organization, because, you know,I've forgotten stakeholders on
(25:40):
projects and it being quite late, or, you know, the people
who typically get forgotten are the departments on the
periphery. I forgot the post room once.
I forgot the information security, which was not a not a
good thing to try to have to rush around and, and it involved
them late in late in the day. So there's, you know, the things
that you learn from experience that you can be passing on to to
(26:02):
your colleagues. But the other thing that helps
is looking at who's working on your other projects.
So multi stakeholder map is something else that is a useful
tool to think about who's involved across several
initiatives. And often those people are the
influencers because they have subject matter expertise that
stretches across multiple areas.Then you can do that stakeholder
analysis looking yes, OK, at their role on the org chart, but
(26:25):
also at their attitude. So are they resistant to change?
Are they resistant to the projects?
Are they indifferent? Are they supportive?
Are they really proactive? Because sometimes those people
are the biggest blockers are thepeople who just never show up so
that they're the people who are not engaged with the process at
all. And how do you bring them on
board? So it's I'm making it sound like
(26:45):
it's a bit political, but it is understanding that the business
context and the landscape and the the quiet power structures
that don't appear on the org chart.
Yeah, no, absolutely. And you know, there's a, there's
a term or a phrase that Amazon we use as dogs not barking,
which basically means that, you know, doesn't mean that it's all
great because we're not hearing any dogs barking.
(27:07):
It probably means that somethingis wrong.
So yes, that might be a sense that you kind of have to get.
Yeah, well, actually that that kind of is a good segue to
empathy, right. So you talk about the people
sides or empathetic human side. You know, I think people call it
EQ these days, but how can PMS improve their emotional
(27:27):
intelligence skill in a technical environment?
Well, I think don't get daunted about it.
I mean, I think if you're a listener and you've, you're in a
very technical role and you're an engineer and you're thinking,
or I've never had any training on this, it's not that hard.
I mean, you listen to your family, you listen to your kids,
right? So it's, you know, it's we're
not doing anything different than we would do in normal life
(27:48):
to be a nice human being. So one thing that you can do
that's very easy is to create some space for informal
connection. So maybe that is your Friday
stand up becomes not about work,but about sharing something
you're doing at the weekend, forexample, or there's building in
some time for small talk or, or check insurance or sending a
thank you message to somebody. And just trying to think of
(28:08):
somebody different to send a thank you to your message each
week. And those small moments that
they'll trust and show people that you're caring about them
and that you're thinking about them.
And vocabulary, even that, having a shared vocabulary,
making sure everyone understandswhat you're talking about and if
it's different, making sure you're taking time to explain
(28:28):
and sit with them and help them come up to speed with the jargon
that you're using for this particular initiative.
So yeah. And it's just taking time to
think, if something's gone wrong, how are people going to
be feeling? Are they overloaded?
Are they frustrated? You mentioned someone feeling
like they were undervalued earlier.
And there's signals that we can pick up on.
And even if you you're trying topick up on it and you might not
(28:49):
have got it right, often people will just be appreciative of the
fact that you thought of them and you reached out.
I've just read a good book, actually.
Vanessa Drewskat wrote a book onEQ for teams.
So that's got loads of ideas in about how you can actively bring
more emotional intelligence intoa team environment.
Right. Yeah.
I mean, we can probably do a whole podcast on that, which is
(29:13):
we should definitely can fill upa lot of, you know, airwaves of
time on that. But definitely.
Yeah, yeah, I know it's, you know, maybe, you know, in a
revision of your book, I might even talk about, we talk about
remote working. There might be some information
give us on how to have build EQ or build empathy, you know,
remotely, I guess you know, all that.
(29:33):
So yeah. Well, it's out for the third
edition. Absolutely.
Well, cool. We've we've come at the to the
end of our podcast, but you knowwhere can lists find your books,
templates and trainings? Probably the easiest place to
get started is project management.
Rebels.com or you can find me onLinkedIn and people can always
(29:55):
reach out and connect with me there.
Oh, absolutely. We'll we'll definitely post the
links on the podcast descriptionas well as you know, you can you
can find it here in the show notes as well.
So, any exciting new projects onthe horizon for you?
I'm working on some new trainingmaterials on program management
actually, so you can people can join my mailing list to hear
(30:18):
about that when that's ready. That's Rebels guide to
pm.com/newsletter I think, and I'll write out and I'll let you
know when it's ready. I said, well, for those folks
who are, you know, it's summer over here, I guess, well, in the
Northern Hemisphere, you know, if you want to have some, I
don't know if it'll be ready, you know, sometime in summer,
but definitely use the summer toread up.
And I'm sure they can find, you know, some of your books.
(30:38):
They can pick up some of your books and do some reading over
summer. Brush up on on different areas
as well. So we really appreciate you
coming on the show. It's been really great.
You know, please jump onto the website Rebels guide to
twopm.com. We'll post your links to your
books and you know, a great place for them to get no
(31:01):
nonsense advice on, you know, how to work in the business.
So been a really engaging conversation.
I appreciate it. Oh, thank you so much for having
me on the show. Absolutely enjoy the rest of the
summer and thank you very much. Thank you.
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