April 10, 2025 • 32 mins
Tracking Wisdom
Episode 20
Bridging Comfort and Contentment in Spiritual Practice
Recorded - 01/06/25
DESCRIPTION
The dialogue between Ryan and Peter delves into the intricate nature of personal fulfillment, particularly in the context of spiritual exploration and contentment. Ryan articulates a profound sense of satisfaction derived from his engagement with spiritual content, sparking a discussion about the underlying motivations that drive individuals towards further inquiry and experience. The conversation highlights a philosophical tension: the distinction between comfort in familiar experiences and the intrinsic urge to seek beyond the horizons of current understanding. Both speakers reflect on the concept of spiritual awakening, positing that true contentment may arise from embracing the present moment rather than pursuing an elusive ideal of growth and development. This nuanced exploration leads to an examination of the 'spiritual horizon,' where the infinite beckons beyond one's current state, prompting a critical analysis of whether the desire for exploration stems from genuine curiosity or conditioned expectations. Throughout, Ryan and Peter maintain a serious tone, emphasizing the importance of introspection and discernment in navigating one's spiritual journey, ultimately suggesting that authentic contentment can coexist with an openness to deeper exploration.
Takeaways
- In this podcast episode, we delve into the intricate dynamics of personal awakening and the significance of contentment versus conditioning.
- The discussion emphasizes the critical distinction between genuine contentment and mere comfort, illuminating how these concepts influence our spiritual journeys.
- We explore the notion that spiritual experiences are often shaped by cultural conditioning, which can lead to an unrecognized desire for further exploration.
- Through examining Alan Chapman's perspectives, we reflect on the profound interconnectedness of individual experiences within the broader context of awakening and existence.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:05):
Views, interpretations andopinions expressed are not advice
nor official positionspresented on behalf of any organization
or institution. They are forinformational and entertainment purposes
only. Now join Ryan and Peterfor another episode of the Tracking
Wisdom Podcast.
Welcome back, everybody. We'rehere continuing our discussion that
(00:27):
started with a discussionbetween Michael Lyden and Alan Chapman
and has spawned off on sometangents with non doing over the
break. I was talking withPeter and I had a question, and he
suggested I bring it up onMike. So going back to the discussion
before break, which I hadmentioned that beyond just the project
(00:51):
and the podcast, I've beeninvested. Invested personal time
in investigating and consumingthis kind of content. So there's
some sort of intellectualsatisfaction or interest that comes
from engaging with thiscontent. And my question was, what
do I think I'm gonna get or.Or what? What am I looking for if
(01:15):
I'm already content? I thinkthat was what was.
Right. Yeah, I think that'swhat you said.
Yeah.
You content. You're alreadycontent. So. And so I think Chapman
actually pointed to that inhis talk as to the horizon. Right.
The spiritual horizon that. Nomatter. And you just mentioned, like,
the. The experience that youhave, your current awakening experience
(01:38):
is always your most profound.And what Chapman says is that, you
know, the infinite is alwayscalling beyond the horizon of your
current experience. And sothat's what it says. So it's. It's
interesting because you'reexpressing it as kind of like, oh,
(02:00):
it's your conditioning that'smaking you look, or it's your intellect
that's making you look. And inthe context of Chapman's talk, I
would interpret it as, no,it's your conditioning that's making
you content with what'sfamiliar. And it's your awakening
that's calling you to explore.But I mean, it's not literally. I
(02:25):
don't think that's literallytrue. But I'm just saying, in the
context of the way he wasmapping things.
Out, I want to address why Iexpress it the way I do. And then
in so doing, it raised aquestion to me also in what he brought
up, which was the reason thatI frame it in that sense is because
(02:51):
the sense and the calling,the. The pull towards the divine
that I recognize is actuallyto stay put, to do the thing that
I was expressing. And that inthe quote unquote, seeking or, you
know, the. The moreintellectual path, I don't feel that
pull.
Mm.
(03:11):
So that's why I kind of frameit that way.
Sure.
But is that just because I'mDelusional or is it, you know, the
conditioning telling me thatthat's where I'm being pulled. Where
maybe there is something else.I don't know.
I mean this is. Yeah, I meanthis is where it gets annoying to
be like, oh, okay, well am Ilistening to my inner voice or am
(03:33):
I listening to my conditioning.
Right.
Kind of thing. Right. It'slike, oh, well, is like I said, is
your contentment conditioning.I mean, I doubt it. There's a difference
between contentment andcomfort. Right. And if you. And you
know what contentment is? Imean, that's different from difference.
Like this makes me comebecause, you know. Yeah, because
(03:55):
you're not avoiding the uncomfortable.
Right. I find comfort. I meanI obviously have another experiential
situation in my currentexperience that is comfort. But it
goes against the grain of whatI am feeling aligned to. I'm talking
about work, right. Like I havea comfort there. There's something
(04:17):
recognizable and familiar.Familiar about that. But there's
a running against the grainthat underlies that whole thing versus
this other experience I'mtalking about where it seems to me
to be the most truest andaligned part of what my nature is
(04:39):
calling to do. So that's why Iwould express it that way. I have
this conflicting interactionbetween my ego and my true self.
What I was saying before this,this messaging that the sense that
(04:59):
you need to go further and,and if it. And that this thing is
calling you. But what if it'snot? Right? Well, I'm not saying
it. What I'm experiencing isthe end all. Be all of it.
Right, Exactly.
But why. What am I, what am I missing?
Well, well that's, that's whatI was suggesting before. Is that
so. First of all, you know, wekeep on coming back to the observation
(05:22):
that you're content being.You're content just sinking in. Yeah,
right. Just air quotes. Justyou're content just being happy,
poor.
It's rough.
And you know that I thinkcontentment and, and given that you
(05:47):
know the difference betweencomfort and contentment, that contentment
is trustworthy. Right. Thatdoesn't mean that I'm going back
to my earlier. I guess it waslast session, session before last
proposition that your lifeuntil now and is an extended period
(06:09):
of not doing right. It doesn'tmean that you should move beyond
non doing. You, you may movebeyond not doing in the future. It
doesn't matter. There's nolike you should or you. It may happen
or may not happen. But youknow, if that's your path and that's
your path. I mean, that's thething. It's a way station in the
(06:30):
path of awakening as we gothrough periods of non doing. And
so if that's where you are,that's where you are.
Right.
And yours apparently is justhuge. And, and so I think that that's,
to me that makes sense. Right.And then equally, as you say, you
(06:51):
know, there's someconditioning that's saying, oh, you
should be exploring more. Andwhat I was going to say, I don't
think I said this earlier isthat, you know, when I had my first
air quotes, first awakening.So I was in the 45 day course, I
got assessed for fundamentalwell being and my mentor said, oh,
(07:13):
you're, you know, you're,you're location one. Then I started
feeling like I should havemore spiritual doing for quite some
time after that, after I gotout of the course. And you know,
we kept on getting contentbecause Jeffrey just keeps on sending
content after you get in that.And then we did, I think the explorers
course. And, and I startedfeeling like, oh, I should be doing
(07:35):
this stuff, which isabsolutely conditioning. Like, oh,
he's offering me this I shouldbe doing, or he's saying I should
be. He says explicitly, youshould be doing this. It's like,
oh, I should be doing it. Youknow, and then it ended up like,
I mean, I finally realized,like, oh no, I shouldn't, it's not
that I should be doing it. Icould do it. I'm comfortable not
(07:58):
doing it. Like, it's making meuncomfortable thinking that I should
do it when I'm not doing it.Like I'm recognizing I'm not doing
it. Okay, well that's whatyou're doing, you know, so it's easy
to have conditioning. I mean,it's common. I mean it's, it's cultural
for us to have the condition.Like, oh, I heard about something,
(08:20):
therefore I should be doingit. Right. So yeah, so it's a, it's
like zeitgeist as opposed topersonal conditioning. Right. It's
not your. I, I wouldn't thinkit's your personal conditioning that
you think you should be doingthis stuff.
I don't, I don't feel like Ishould be doing it. It's that I feel
like that's the message comingout of the content. Absolutely should
(08:41):
be doing.
Absolutely.
And I know that it does. It,it doesn't have to be that it's not
that you can't do it or thatyou shouldn't do it.
So unfortunately, theAwakening. Oh, what is it called?
The transformative space.Right. I think that's what Jeffrey
calls it. This. Thetransformative technology space.
(09:02):
Which apparently what he meansby that is like awakening content.
I think. Right. It's like allthis, this stuff that unfortunately
for us, it exists in thecontext of a capitalist structure.
I mean, where do we get ourcontent? YouTube, which is like,
(09:24):
what's the word I want to use?Kind of the. An archetype of capitalism.
Clickbait. And sounfortunately for us, there is literally
heavy marketing around theseideas now. I mean, I'm not saying
that Chapman was marketing.
He's trying not.
He was trying. He was likereally trying not to. Like, he's
(09:44):
like, yeah, I'm not trying toget people to sign up. Like, I don't
want to. But the context inwhich we learn about these things
really is that. And in fact,did I tell you about my friend writing
a book about that? So saidshe's writing a book. Well, she intends
to write a book and this isanother project for us or another.
(10:07):
Another space about the costof awakening and the marketing and
the, the fact that that. And.And she lives in Aspen, Colorado
and has for like 40 years. Andshe's like, you know, I live in the
billionaires playground. Andlike literally Jeff Bezos had a birthday
(10:28):
party there. She was sayinglike, Jeff Bezos was here last week.
And you can't not know that ifyou live here. It's like, you know,
you know that it's like. And.And so he know she was commenting
on the industry of awakening.And. And because she's been. Been
(10:49):
working through differentmethodologies for over 40 years,
she's like. And paid forretreats and course, as long as she
wants to write a book aboutthe kind of this industry, the cost
of awakening. And so I invitedher, I said, when you're ready. I
think it would be a reallygreat match for our podcast. You
(11:11):
know, but she's, I think withher book where I am with my book,
which is like I want a book.And I said, I said, oh, actually
I have two friends who justfinished books so you know, we could.
And oh, I sent her to yoursubstack, actually.
(11:31):
Oh, really?
I sent you side. And I said,oh, unfortunately I realized he focuses
on creative writing.
Right.
But you know, there might beuseful content. It's like, oh yeah,
maybe I should read your. Iread a couple by the way. And I've.
I've been pressuring mydaughter to connect.
Yeah.
Because she's.
I know she likes to write.
Well, she's looking for pro.So we talked earlier about her college
(11:55):
application process and she'sspecifically looking for a creative
writing program.
Oh, cool.
So I keep on telling. It'slike, well, you know, I know someone
who wrote a novel or is aboutto finish a novel.
About to finish.
About to finish.
And a novelette.
But I, but I recommended your,your substack because I did read
a couple articles. I'm like,oh, this is really cool stuff about
(12:17):
the process of writing.
So thank you, but I appreciate the.
Of course she's going toignore it.
You know, because I told herthat's all right.
No, I'm hoping that at somepoint, at least down the road sometime
she'll talk to someone who'sactually been doing some serious
writing.
Yeah. You were talking aboutindustry and my thought or comment
(12:41):
was that the material iswritten on or created on a premise
of something missing. Right.People who feel fulfilled are not
generally looking for more material.
Right.
And yet sort of I am. And Iguess that's where like maybe there's
an disconnect in, in thedelivery of the content that I'm
(13:04):
not necessarily. I don't know.
I'd say it's a mix.
Yeah.
I mean that's, that's thething with PoK is that as we've talked
about before, it's. Sometimeswe don't feel comfortable with that
community. And for me it doesbring up feelings of spiritual doing.
(13:25):
Like, oh, I should be doingmore. I mean, because it's a very
active community and peopleget together and they do a lot. I
mean, they sit through thesetwo hour, three hour sessions. They
might do a few week. I don'tknow, I mean I. But I think it's
just context because when Icall, like I said, you know, someone
mentioned non. Like they justfound themselves non doing and I'm
(13:47):
like, oh, we should talk. Andwe had a two hour conversation. And
generally when I haveconversations now, they're more often
an hour than they are 15 minutes.
Right.
Because basically this doesn'tsound the right way. I'm going to
say people who are worthtalking to. It's not that people
are worth talking to. It's notwhether someone's worth talking to.
(14:09):
It's a thing that's worthdiscussing or a topic that's worth
having conversation about. Forme, I don't know, just when I connect
with someone, it's like itjust goes for two hours. It just
does.
Or five if you're me.
I mean, because we just don'tdo small talk.
Right.
I mean, in like the way we'reexperiencing things right now, there's.
(14:31):
There's not a lot of smalltalk. Although I am getting better
at small talk. Am I? No, I'mnot. Because I was thinking about
the conversation. Did I tellyou that I offered meditation services?
No, I think you had been. Isthis around the world where you're
working out?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there's.
You talked about.
(14:52):
I'm a fitness center and I hadapproached the owner a few weeks
ago, so it must have beensince we did last. And I'm like,
oh, I'm just gonna take theplunge and suggest to her and that,
you know, ask if she wasinterested or suggested if she was
interested in having some kindof meditation services or event that
(15:13):
I could do that because I'mjust finishing my certification.
And I said, you know, I, Isaid, what? Whatever works for your
clientele, whether it's forfree or for fee or, you know, whatever,
however you would want to doit, it's something I'd be interested
in. And it was a surprisinglylong conversation. Like, we just
(15:33):
chatted. I chattered, Imentioned Reiki. She mentioned the
podcast.
Oh, really?
Yes, she said, she said, oh, Iheard you have a podcast. You. I
have you. I have your podcaston my list. I was like, oh, have
you listened to. She goes,well, I'm. I'm finishing an audiobook.
But Sophie, Sophie told meit's really good.
Who is this?
My trainer is Sophie and theowner is Sarah. And so, yeah, so
(15:56):
anyway, thank you.
For doing the marketing for me.
Yeah, so, yeah, so it'sinteresting. So it's not. It's maybe
more shining the light.
Yeah.
And like talking about whatI'm actually interested in rather
than making small talk andfinding that people are interested
in. But it's selective. Like,I don't talk to everybody and there's
(16:18):
some people I've startedconversations with. I'm just like.
I was just going to say what.I feel like the crux of what my sentiment
is, is around non doing, whichis, I mean, I'm coming at from it,
from the other perspective,which is I feel like people are saying
(16:38):
do. And I feel like maybe I'm,I'm equating the term practice with
doing. And when I hear anecessity and, and you had said you
wanted to talk about spiritualnon doing. And maybe.
Well, that's just what I wassaying before about when I was finishing
the 45 day program and I kepton getting materials. But I think
(17:02):
that, you know, unless youare, unless you're reclusive. You're
gonna feel the culturalconditioning of, oh, look, there's
all this new stuff.
Yeah.
And. And there's thatcondition of like, oh, new. You know,
speaking of which, I wasgonna. I was gonna talk about my
(17:23):
new car, but I don't know if Ishould do that. No, because I. I
got a new car.
Okay.
And my previous car, I got abase model because it's like, oh,
that's the one with the bestmileage. The base. The hybrid. The
base model has the bestmileage. And the upper trim levels,
(17:44):
the battery, I don't know, whatever.
Okay.
Like, they. They sacrificebattery space. It's. The battery's
not as good. So the upper trimlevels tend to have less mileage.
Okay.
And so it's time to get a newcar. I said, you know what? I'm retired.
I can afford it. I'm. I'mlike, I'm going to get a top trim
(18:05):
level for a change. Like, I'mjust. I'm just getting the top trim
level. I'm not going to, youknow, think about it. And. And so
I did. And it comes withalloy. Like the thin, alloy tires.
I mean, the alloy big alloywheels with the thin tires. And it's
like more susceptible roaddamage. And if you do rec wheel,
(18:28):
they're like, yeah, it's like.And so. And I'm realizing, like,
oh. And then. And then it'sgot all these sensors, like the bumper.
Each bumper has, like foursensors on. So basically now it's
not a bumper. Right. Becauseif you bump it now, you've just created
how many hundred dollars ofdamage to the camera or whatever.
And so I'm feeling veryprotective of the car, which I never
(18:53):
have before. Like, I've hadnew cars before, but I just been
like, yeah, whatever. It's a car.
Right.
So I. I've had a couple. Overthe weekend, we drove up to Salem,
and I was really uncomfortable.
Really?
Because bad drivers. Yeah.It's, like, uptight about my car.
I'm like, okay, I got to letgo of the. Like, this is too much.
(19:16):
Like, I don't. That's. I. Ihadn't realized that choosing to
get high trim would be.Choosing to. Would. Would be upgrading
my level of concern.
Right about.
For the. For the possession.Exactly. You know? And so I'm like,
huh. So it's a. It's a lesson.
It is a lesson. That's interesting.
(19:36):
It's like, oh, I don't likethis. You know, like, oh. So anyway,
that was just an observation.But Going back to Chapman, I wanted
to swing back to Chapman'spractice because I had an interesting.
So what was your experienceof. Of the angel practice when you
tried it?
I don't know exactly whatyou're looking for, but I would say
(19:58):
that it felt aligned withsome. With a practice I would typically.
Or if I were to do a practice,that that would be something I'd
be inclined to do.
So I had two distinctlydifferent reactions the first time
I did it. So. And I have tosay, I didn't, like, formally sit
down and, you know, the wayhe. The way he let it, I just did
(20:20):
it afterwards. You kind oftried it on for size. And my first
time, I had a lot ofresistance to it, which was. I'm
like, oh, my God. I still gotso much Western cultural, Christian
indoctrination around doing aninvocation. And it was like, oh,
this is, you know, I mean,it's pretty benign. My holy garden
(20:43):
in angel. It's hard to see howthat could.
You're not even invoking.You're just consenting.
I know.
You're allowing.
I know, I know, I know. But Idefinitely had that experience of
discomfort of. Of childhoodreligious anxiety, which I. I was
never religiously anxious as achild, but anxiety from my religious
(21:04):
childhood. And then when I didit at night, more. More seriously,
I've been doing it in bed, Ifound myself. Well, I guess because
he said, you can use a name.Well, what he said was, if you've
met the angel, you could use aname. And so I was. So I was conflating
the practice with the greenTara practice.
Okay.
(21:24):
Because it just feels verymuch the same. Although the green
tar practice is moreformalized. There are more specific.
Well, there are specificsteps, and there's a specific standard
image, basically, which is,you know, that this figure has specific
limb positions and handpositions and objects associated
(21:46):
that you visualize with it. Soit's not the same in that sense,
because the angel practice isjust pure. Purely a verbal practice.
You don't version. You don'tvisualize anything. You wait for
the something to show up. So Idon't know if it's worth me doing
because I seem to beconflating those two, but I did feel
(22:10):
like it was helpful. I don'tknow if it's just because it returned
me to the Green Towerpractice, but I wasn't actively doing
green tar practice. I wasjust. I did kind of how I had Tara
in mind while I was doing therecitation. I was just trying to
relax and. And Recite. So I'llprobably continue playing with it
just because I think it wouldbe cool to have, you know, a vision.
(22:34):
Or something like that, whichhe did say takes time.
I know, I know. So it's like.Well, I don't know how much. How
much patience because, youknow, like you, I. It's like I'm
not really looking forsomething. You had mentioned something
about suffering and creationnot being. Oh, yeah. Creation. Oh,
(22:55):
yeah. Let me. Yeah. So you usethe phrase my place in creation.
There's one phrase you usedand then another one you used was
participating in creation. Andparticipating. Creation could mean
two things like participatingin the creation. Capital C, or participating
(23:21):
in the process activity ofcreation. So I was just curious whether
you meant one or the otherspecifically when you said participating
in creation.
So little C. You mean likewriting a book?
Yeah, playing guitar.
Yeah, I equate them both tothe same. The little C creations
(23:45):
are my part in the big secretion.
Yep. It's the. I think. Ithink Chapman also talked about the
fractal. The. The holographic.The part contains the whole.
Yeah. I think.
Oh, remember the. The partcontains a hole and the hole contains
(24:06):
the part. That was interesting.
Yes. I mean, that. That pointssimilarly to the metaphor of the
ocean and the wave.
Yeah. Except he was much moreexplicit about it from the swimming
pool and the.
Yeah. What was it? It was theswimming pool.
Yeah. So I wasn't sure. Oh,that was something that. Okay. So
(24:26):
first of all, he said thatwhat you find as you go along is
that looking inward, you findthe infinite, you find the great
openness that containseverything. And then at the same
(24:46):
time, it's all around you.Like looking inward, you find what's
all around you. And thatthere's this. I want to call it a
kind of a top of topologicalparadox. Right. Of like the inside
being the outside kind of.
Yeah.
You know, it's a Klein bottle,I think, is a. It's a. It's a mathematical
(25:07):
object that. Where the outsideis in the inside. So that was one
description he had. And thenthe other one. So that one I recognize.
And. But the other one was hesaid if you throw the contents of
your room, of your room into aswimming pool, it all gets wet and
(25:27):
it all participates in thewetness, but it's still. Each item
is still itself. And that wasdifferent from teachings on oneness
that I'm familiar with. Right.Emptiness, oneness, whatever. Now
you're gonna kind of relate.Well, aspects of true nature. Of
true nature. Right. But he. Hewas very Clear that all the objects
(25:52):
are still the objects. And theway I interpret that, I, I, I, I
want to disagree with him inthe absolute because it sounded like
he's describing the absolute.And in the absolute, objects are
no longer objects.
Right.
I mean, just like in Hoffman'sontology, icons don't exist. Right,
(26:14):
right. So it seems to me,which is another thing he talked
about, but it seemed to methat he was kind of moving back and
forth between the condition,the unconditioned, and saying from
conditioned reality all thosethings still exist.
Right.
Conditioned reality neverstops being conditioned reality.
(26:35):
You touch the unconditioned,and the unconditioned contains all
the conditioned. And thecondition still is conditioned. It's
just that you can see thatthere are no separations.
Right.
And so it seemed, I mean,that's the way I would express it.
And it seemed like he wasexpressing in a very different way.
If I recall correctly, myinterpretation of that analogy was,
(26:59):
was specifically to recognizethe individual experience. Still
like that. The process ofawakening doesn't negate your experience
of being individual in thecondition space. That's how I kind
of interpreted what he wastrying to say there. That.
No, no, I agree. No, I, Iagree. I just remembered something
(27:23):
else that he said.
I mean, that's essentially allI have to say.
Well, so he said somethingabout people who decide to purge
first person pronouns fromtheir language. Do you remember that?
Like you no longer talk about.I, I thought he had talked about
people experiencing onenessand whatever. It just, it just raised
(27:47):
that idea. Oh, oh, okay.Ontology. So tell me about your phrase,
your place in creation.
The character I play in thedance of life, the stage in the play
in which conventional realityis what we frame it.
Right. Yeah.
Is placed. And, and thecharacter and position that I play
(28:08):
in this current iteration andscene of that creation.
So is that implying a dictateor should an intent like I'm intended
to. There is an intention forme to follow because I thought it
might have that connotation.It had that connotation for me.
So it does, but less so like ashould that there's an alignment
(28:36):
with my higher self in a wayto navigate this time and space in
a way that aligns withwhatever my higher.
Self is, it's purpose. Yeah,yeah, yeah. Because that's something
that came up for me recently.I don't know if I talked about last
(28:56):
time was purpose because in,in a, in a private session, I was
describing this flow of doingthat was not, it was not doing, doing.
Right, right, right. It wasjust like, this is what I'm doing
right now. It's just like I amintroducing myself to people. I am,
you know, talking to someoneabout making meditation available.
(29:21):
There was a littleintellectual thing of should, but
it really didn't feel likehaving the conversation. Didn't feel
like, oh, I should be havingthis conversation. It's like just
totally, I'm having thisconversation. I'm completely present.
Did that feel aligned with purpose?
Very, very much. And. Andthat's so. To me, see, that's moving
(29:45):
out of non doing, but not ina. Not in a conventional way. Maybe
it is non doing. Maybe that isnon doing.
Still say non doing.
Yeah, but see, now I'mstruggling with the fact that I feel
purpose, but I'm not doing.
There's the problem, I guess.
(30:06):
Right?
Yeah.
And. And, and so. So, well, sofor instance, the meditation program
that I'm supposed to write, Ishould write. I haven't been. And
then there's some conflict there.
Okay. So I shouldn't get onyour ass about that.
Yeah, well, we might talkabout accountability.
I'm just kidding.
(30:26):
No, actually. Well, I'll tellyou about it. But so the. The last
notes I had, which areactually the first notes I had on
Chapman, were creation,integration, and relationship, which
I guess I can't really speakto. I thought they were interesting
elements of his talk becausehe did talk about integration. I
(30:47):
can't remember what he saidabout it. He talked about magic as
being creation, which my senseis that was more in alignment with
what you talk about asparticipating in creation by performing
(31:08):
creative acts. And then healso talked about relationship. These
seemed like key concepts to meout of his talk. And relationship
is, for me, like a really bigmarker of awakening experience. Yeah.
I mean, I would say in thepast year, my relationship to relationship
(31:29):
has completely changed.
Right.
All right, so I think I've rundry on Chapman, and I would really
like to talk about the threads model.
Yeah. So thank you forlistening to this extended discussion
on Michael Lydon and AlanChapman. I will link Alan Chapman's
information below. And nextdiscussion, we will be talking about
(31:51):
a new model on. Or analternative model, I suppose, of.
How would you call it?Location or places.
It's a new model of theawakening process.
Yeah. And it's called theThruster. A map. Yes. So tune in
to that episode to learn more.See ya.
Bye. Thank you for listeningto the Tracking Wisdom podcast. Join
(32:21):
us next time as we continuethe discussion. Don't forget to follow
us on Facebook, Instagram andYouTube. And visit www.eth-studio.com
for more information and content.
Views, interpretations andopinions expressed are not advice
nor official positionspresented on behalf of any organization
or institution. They are forinformational and entertainment purposes
only. Now join Ryan and Peterfor another episode of the Tracking
Wisdom Podcast.
Welcome back, everybody. We'rehere continuing our discussion that
(00:27):
started with a discussionbetween Michael Lyden and Alan Chapman
and has spawned off on sometangents with non doing over the
break. I was talking withPeter and I had a question, and he
suggested I bring it up onMike. So going back to the discussion
before break, which I hadmentioned that beyond just the project
(00:51):
and the podcast, I've beeninvested. Invested personal time
in investigating and consumingthis kind of content. So there's
some sort of intellectualsatisfaction or interest that comes
from engaging with thiscontent. And my question was, what
do I think I'm gonna get or.Or what? What am I looking for if
(01:15):
I'm already content? I thinkthat was what was.
Right. Yeah, I think that'swhat you said.
Yeah.
You content. You're alreadycontent. So. And so I think Chapman
actually pointed to that inhis talk as to the horizon. Right.
The spiritual horizon that. Nomatter. And you just mentioned, like,
the. The experience that youhave, your current awakening experience
(01:38):
is always your most profound.And what Chapman says is that, you
know, the infinite is alwayscalling beyond the horizon of your
current experience. And sothat's what it says. So it's. It's
interesting because you'reexpressing it as kind of like, oh,
(02:00):
it's your conditioning that'smaking you look, or it's your intellect
that's making you look. And inthe context of Chapman's talk, I
would interpret it as, no,it's your conditioning that's making
you content with what'sfamiliar. And it's your awakening
that's calling you to explore.But I mean, it's not literally. I
(02:25):
don't think that's literallytrue. But I'm just saying, in the
context of the way he wasmapping things.
Out, I want to address why Iexpress it the way I do. And then
in so doing, it raised aquestion to me also in what he brought
up, which was the reason thatI frame it in that sense is because
(02:51):
the sense and the calling,the. The pull towards the divine
that I recognize is actuallyto stay put, to do the thing that
I was expressing. And that inthe quote unquote, seeking or, you
know, the. The moreintellectual path, I don't feel that
pull.
Mm.
(03:11):
So that's why I kind of frameit that way.
Sure.
But is that just because I'mDelusional or is it, you know, the
conditioning telling me thatthat's where I'm being pulled. Where
maybe there is something else.I don't know.
I mean this is. Yeah, I meanthis is where it gets annoying to
be like, oh, okay, well am Ilistening to my inner voice or am
(03:33):
I listening to my conditioning.
Right.
Kind of thing. Right. It'slike, oh, well, is like I said, is
your contentment conditioning.I mean, I doubt it. There's a difference
between contentment andcomfort. Right. And if you. And you
know what contentment is? Imean, that's different from difference.
Like this makes me comebecause, you know. Yeah, because
(03:55):
you're not avoiding the uncomfortable.
Right. I find comfort. I meanI obviously have another experiential
situation in my currentexperience that is comfort. But it
goes against the grain of whatI am feeling aligned to. I'm talking
about work, right. Like I havea comfort there. There's something
(04:17):
recognizable and familiar.Familiar about that. But there's
a running against the grainthat underlies that whole thing versus
this other experience I'mtalking about where it seems to me
to be the most truest andaligned part of what my nature is
(04:39):
calling to do. So that's why Iwould express it that way. I have
this conflicting interactionbetween my ego and my true self.
What I was saying before this,this messaging that the sense that
(04:59):
you need to go further and,and if it. And that this thing is
calling you. But what if it'snot? Right? Well, I'm not saying
it. What I'm experiencing isthe end all. Be all of it.
Right, Exactly.
But why. What am I, what am I missing?
Well, well that's, that's whatI was suggesting before. Is that
so. First of all, you know, wekeep on coming back to the observation
(05:22):
that you're content being.You're content just sinking in. Yeah,
right. Just air quotes. Justyou're content just being happy,
poor.
It's rough.
And you know that I thinkcontentment and, and given that you
(05:47):
know the difference betweencomfort and contentment, that contentment
is trustworthy. Right. Thatdoesn't mean that I'm going back
to my earlier. I guess it waslast session, session before last
proposition that your lifeuntil now and is an extended period
(06:09):
of not doing right. It doesn'tmean that you should move beyond
non doing. You, you may movebeyond not doing in the future. It
doesn't matter. There's nolike you should or you. It may happen
or may not happen. But youknow, if that's your path and that's
your path. I mean, that's thething. It's a way station in the
(06:30):
path of awakening as we gothrough periods of non doing. And
so if that's where you are,that's where you are.
Right.
And yours apparently is justhuge. And, and so I think that that's,
to me that makes sense. Right.And then equally, as you say, you
(06:51):
know, there's someconditioning that's saying, oh, you
should be exploring more. Andwhat I was going to say, I don't
think I said this earlier isthat, you know, when I had my first
air quotes, first awakening.So I was in the 45 day course, I
got assessed for fundamentalwell being and my mentor said, oh,
(07:13):
you're, you know, you're,you're location one. Then I started
feeling like I should havemore spiritual doing for quite some
time after that, after I gotout of the course. And you know,
we kept on getting contentbecause Jeffrey just keeps on sending
content after you get in that.And then we did, I think the explorers
course. And, and I startedfeeling like, oh, I should be doing
(07:35):
this stuff, which isabsolutely conditioning. Like, oh,
he's offering me this I shouldbe doing, or he's saying I should
be. He says explicitly, youshould be doing this. It's like,
oh, I should be doing it. Youknow, and then it ended up like,
I mean, I finally realized,like, oh no, I shouldn't, it's not
that I should be doing it. Icould do it. I'm comfortable not
(07:58):
doing it. Like, it's making meuncomfortable thinking that I should
do it when I'm not doing it.Like I'm recognizing I'm not doing
it. Okay, well that's whatyou're doing, you know, so it's easy
to have conditioning. I mean,it's common. I mean it's, it's cultural
for us to have the condition.Like, oh, I heard about something,
(08:20):
therefore I should be doingit. Right. So yeah, so it's a, it's
like zeitgeist as opposed topersonal conditioning. Right. It's
not your. I, I wouldn't thinkit's your personal conditioning that
you think you should be doingthis stuff.
I don't, I don't feel like Ishould be doing it. It's that I feel
like that's the message comingout of the content. Absolutely should
(08:41):
be doing.
Absolutely.
And I know that it does. It,it doesn't have to be that it's not
that you can't do it or thatyou shouldn't do it.
So unfortunately, theAwakening. Oh, what is it called?
The transformative space.Right. I think that's what Jeffrey
calls it. This. Thetransformative technology space.
(09:02):
Which apparently what he meansby that is like awakening content.
I think. Right. It's like allthis, this stuff that unfortunately
for us, it exists in thecontext of a capitalist structure.
I mean, where do we get ourcontent? YouTube, which is like,
(09:24):
what's the word I want to use?Kind of the. An archetype of capitalism.
Clickbait. And sounfortunately for us, there is literally
heavy marketing around theseideas now. I mean, I'm not saying
that Chapman was marketing.
He's trying not.
He was trying. He was likereally trying not to. Like, he's
(09:44):
like, yeah, I'm not trying toget people to sign up. Like, I don't
want to. But the context inwhich we learn about these things
really is that. And in fact,did I tell you about my friend writing
a book about that? So saidshe's writing a book. Well, she intends
to write a book and this isanother project for us or another.
(10:07):
Another space about the costof awakening and the marketing and
the, the fact that that. And.And she lives in Aspen, Colorado
and has for like 40 years. Andshe's like, you know, I live in the
billionaires playground. Andlike literally Jeff Bezos had a birthday
(10:28):
party there. She was sayinglike, Jeff Bezos was here last week.
And you can't not know that ifyou live here. It's like, you know,
you know that it's like. And.And so he know she was commenting
on the industry of awakening.And. And because she's been. Been
(10:49):
working through differentmethodologies for over 40 years,
she's like. And paid forretreats and course, as long as she
wants to write a book aboutthe kind of this industry, the cost
of awakening. And so I invitedher, I said, when you're ready. I
think it would be a reallygreat match for our podcast. You
(11:11):
know, but she's, I think withher book where I am with my book,
which is like I want a book.And I said, I said, oh, actually
I have two friends who justfinished books so you know, we could.
And oh, I sent her to yoursubstack, actually.
(11:31):
Oh, really?
I sent you side. And I said,oh, unfortunately I realized he focuses
on creative writing.
Right.
But you know, there might beuseful content. It's like, oh yeah,
maybe I should read your. Iread a couple by the way. And I've.
I've been pressuring mydaughter to connect.
Yeah.
Because she's.
I know she likes to write.
Well, she's looking for pro.So we talked earlier about her college
(11:55):
application process and she'sspecifically looking for a creative
writing program.
Oh, cool.
So I keep on telling. It'slike, well, you know, I know someone
who wrote a novel or is aboutto finish a novel.
About to finish.
About to finish.
And a novelette.
But I, but I recommended your,your substack because I did read
a couple articles. I'm like,oh, this is really cool stuff about
(12:17):
the process of writing.
So thank you, but I appreciate the.
Of course she's going toignore it.
You know, because I told herthat's all right.
No, I'm hoping that at somepoint, at least down the road sometime
she'll talk to someone who'sactually been doing some serious
writing.
Yeah. You were talking aboutindustry and my thought or comment
(12:41):
was that the material iswritten on or created on a premise
of something missing. Right.People who feel fulfilled are not
generally looking for more material.
Right.
And yet sort of I am. And Iguess that's where like maybe there's
an disconnect in, in thedelivery of the content that I'm
(13:04):
not necessarily. I don't know.
I'd say it's a mix.
Yeah.
I mean that's, that's thething with PoK is that as we've talked
about before, it's. Sometimeswe don't feel comfortable with that
community. And for me it doesbring up feelings of spiritual doing.
(13:25):
Like, oh, I should be doingmore. I mean, because it's a very
active community and peopleget together and they do a lot. I
mean, they sit through thesetwo hour, three hour sessions. They
might do a few week. I don'tknow, I mean I. But I think it's
just context because when Icall, like I said, you know, someone
mentioned non. Like they justfound themselves non doing and I'm
(13:47):
like, oh, we should talk. Andwe had a two hour conversation. And
generally when I haveconversations now, they're more often
an hour than they are 15 minutes.
Right.
Because basically this doesn'tsound the right way. I'm going to
say people who are worthtalking to. It's not that people
are worth talking to. It's notwhether someone's worth talking to.
(14:09):
It's a thing that's worthdiscussing or a topic that's worth
having conversation about. Forme, I don't know, just when I connect
with someone, it's like itjust goes for two hours. It just
does.
Or five if you're me.
I mean, because we just don'tdo small talk.
Right.
I mean, in like the way we'reexperiencing things right now, there's.
(14:31):
There's not a lot of smalltalk. Although I am getting better
at small talk. Am I? No, I'mnot. Because I was thinking about
the conversation. Did I tellyou that I offered meditation services?
No, I think you had been. Isthis around the world where you're
working out?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there's.
You talked about.
(14:52):
I'm a fitness center and I hadapproached the owner a few weeks
ago, so it must have beensince we did last. And I'm like,
oh, I'm just gonna take theplunge and suggest to her and that,
you know, ask if she wasinterested or suggested if she was
interested in having some kindof meditation services or event that
(15:13):
I could do that because I'mjust finishing my certification.
And I said, you know, I, Isaid, what? Whatever works for your
clientele, whether it's forfree or for fee or, you know, whatever,
however you would want to doit, it's something I'd be interested
in. And it was a surprisinglylong conversation. Like, we just
(15:33):
chatted. I chattered, Imentioned Reiki. She mentioned the
podcast.
Oh, really?
Yes, she said, she said, oh, Iheard you have a podcast. You. I
have you. I have your podcaston my list. I was like, oh, have
you listened to. She goes,well, I'm. I'm finishing an audiobook.
But Sophie, Sophie told meit's really good.
Who is this?
My trainer is Sophie and theowner is Sarah. And so, yeah, so
(15:56):
anyway, thank you.
For doing the marketing for me.
Yeah, so, yeah, so it'sinteresting. So it's not. It's maybe
more shining the light.
Yeah.
And like talking about whatI'm actually interested in rather
than making small talk andfinding that people are interested
in. But it's selective. Like,I don't talk to everybody and there's
(16:18):
some people I've startedconversations with. I'm just like.
I was just going to say what.I feel like the crux of what my sentiment
is, is around non doing, whichis, I mean, I'm coming at from it,
from the other perspective,which is I feel like people are saying
(16:38):
do. And I feel like maybe I'm,I'm equating the term practice with
doing. And when I hear anecessity and, and you had said you
wanted to talk about spiritualnon doing. And maybe.
Well, that's just what I wassaying before about when I was finishing
the 45 day program and I kepton getting materials. But I think
(17:02):
that, you know, unless youare, unless you're reclusive. You're
gonna feel the culturalconditioning of, oh, look, there's
all this new stuff.
Yeah.
And. And there's thatcondition of like, oh, new. You know,
speaking of which, I wasgonna. I was gonna talk about my
(17:23):
new car, but I don't know if Ishould do that. No, because I. I
got a new car.
Okay.
And my previous car, I got abase model because it's like, oh,
that's the one with the bestmileage. The base. The hybrid. The
base model has the bestmileage. And the upper trim levels,
(17:44):
the battery, I don't know, whatever.
Okay.
Like, they. They sacrificebattery space. It's. The battery's
not as good. So the upper trimlevels tend to have less mileage.
Okay.
And so it's time to get a newcar. I said, you know what? I'm retired.
I can afford it. I'm. I'mlike, I'm going to get a top trim
(18:05):
level for a change. Like, I'mjust. I'm just getting the top trim
level. I'm not going to, youknow, think about it. And. And so
I did. And it comes withalloy. Like the thin, alloy tires.
I mean, the alloy big alloywheels with the thin tires. And it's
like more susceptible roaddamage. And if you do rec wheel,
(18:28):
they're like, yeah, it's like.And so. And I'm realizing, like,
oh. And then. And then it'sgot all these sensors, like the bumper.
Each bumper has, like foursensors on. So basically now it's
not a bumper. Right. Becauseif you bump it now, you've just created
how many hundred dollars ofdamage to the camera or whatever.
And so I'm feeling veryprotective of the car, which I never
(18:53):
have before. Like, I've hadnew cars before, but I just been
like, yeah, whatever. It's a car.
Right.
So I. I've had a couple. Overthe weekend, we drove up to Salem,
and I was really uncomfortable.
Really?
Because bad drivers. Yeah.It's, like, uptight about my car.
I'm like, okay, I got to letgo of the. Like, this is too much.
(19:16):
Like, I don't. That's. I. Ihadn't realized that choosing to
get high trim would be.Choosing to. Would. Would be upgrading
my level of concern.
Right about.
For the. For the possession.Exactly. You know? And so I'm like,
huh. So it's a. It's a lesson.
It is a lesson. That's interesting.
(19:36):
It's like, oh, I don't likethis. You know, like, oh. So anyway,
that was just an observation.But Going back to Chapman, I wanted
to swing back to Chapman'spractice because I had an interesting.
So what was your experienceof. Of the angel practice when you
tried it?
I don't know exactly whatyou're looking for, but I would say
(19:58):
that it felt aligned withsome. With a practice I would typically.
Or if I were to do a practice,that that would be something I'd
be inclined to do.
So I had two distinctlydifferent reactions the first time
I did it. So. And I have tosay, I didn't, like, formally sit
down and, you know, the wayhe. The way he let it, I just did
(20:20):
it afterwards. You kind oftried it on for size. And my first
time, I had a lot ofresistance to it, which was. I'm
like, oh, my God. I still gotso much Western cultural, Christian
indoctrination around doing aninvocation. And it was like, oh,
this is, you know, I mean,it's pretty benign. My holy garden
(20:43):
in angel. It's hard to see howthat could.
You're not even invoking.You're just consenting.
I know.
You're allowing.
I know, I know, I know. But Idefinitely had that experience of
discomfort of. Of childhoodreligious anxiety, which I. I was
never religiously anxious as achild, but anxiety from my religious
(21:04):
childhood. And then when I didit at night, more. More seriously,
I've been doing it in bed, Ifound myself. Well, I guess because
he said, you can use a name.Well, what he said was, if you've
met the angel, you could use aname. And so I was. So I was conflating
the practice with the greenTara practice.
Okay.
(21:24):
Because it just feels verymuch the same. Although the green
tar practice is moreformalized. There are more specific.
Well, there are specificsteps, and there's a specific standard
image, basically, which is,you know, that this figure has specific
limb positions and handpositions and objects associated
(21:46):
that you visualize with it. Soit's not the same in that sense,
because the angel practice isjust pure. Purely a verbal practice.
You don't version. You don'tvisualize anything. You wait for
the something to show up. So Idon't know if it's worth me doing
because I seem to beconflating those two, but I did feel
(22:10):
like it was helpful. I don'tknow if it's just because it returned
me to the Green Towerpractice, but I wasn't actively doing
green tar practice. I wasjust. I did kind of how I had Tara
in mind while I was doing therecitation. I was just trying to
relax and. And Recite. So I'llprobably continue playing with it
just because I think it wouldbe cool to have, you know, a vision.
(22:34):
Or something like that, whichhe did say takes time.
I know, I know. So it's like.Well, I don't know how much. How
much patience because, youknow, like you, I. It's like I'm
not really looking forsomething. You had mentioned something
about suffering and creationnot being. Oh, yeah. Creation. Oh,
(22:55):
yeah. Let me. Yeah. So you usethe phrase my place in creation.
There's one phrase you usedand then another one you used was
participating in creation. Andparticipating. Creation could mean
two things like participatingin the creation. Capital C, or participating
(23:21):
in the process activity ofcreation. So I was just curious whether
you meant one or the otherspecifically when you said participating
in creation.
So little C. You mean likewriting a book?
Yeah, playing guitar.
Yeah, I equate them both tothe same. The little C creations
(23:45):
are my part in the big secretion.
Yep. It's the. I think. Ithink Chapman also talked about the
fractal. The. The holographic.The part contains the whole.
Yeah. I think.
Oh, remember the. The partcontains a hole and the hole contains
(24:06):
the part. That was interesting.
Yes. I mean, that. That pointssimilarly to the metaphor of the
ocean and the wave.
Yeah. Except he was much moreexplicit about it from the swimming
pool and the.
Yeah. What was it? It was theswimming pool.
Yeah. So I wasn't sure. Oh,that was something that. Okay. So
(24:26):
first of all, he said thatwhat you find as you go along is
that looking inward, you findthe infinite, you find the great
openness that containseverything. And then at the same
(24:46):
time, it's all around you.Like looking inward, you find what's
all around you. And thatthere's this. I want to call it a
kind of a top of topologicalparadox. Right. Of like the inside
being the outside kind of.
Yeah.
You know, it's a Klein bottle,I think, is a. It's a. It's a mathematical
(25:07):
object that. Where the outsideis in the inside. So that was one
description he had. And thenthe other one. So that one I recognize.
And. But the other one was hesaid if you throw the contents of
your room, of your room into aswimming pool, it all gets wet and
(25:27):
it all participates in thewetness, but it's still. Each item
is still itself. And that wasdifferent from teachings on oneness
that I'm familiar with. Right.Emptiness, oneness, whatever. Now
you're gonna kind of relate.Well, aspects of true nature. Of
true nature. Right. But he. Hewas very Clear that all the objects
(25:52):
are still the objects. And theway I interpret that, I, I, I, I
want to disagree with him inthe absolute because it sounded like
he's describing the absolute.And in the absolute, objects are
no longer objects.
Right.
I mean, just like in Hoffman'sontology, icons don't exist. Right,
(26:14):
right. So it seems to me,which is another thing he talked
about, but it seemed to methat he was kind of moving back and
forth between the condition,the unconditioned, and saying from
conditioned reality all thosethings still exist.
Right.
Conditioned reality neverstops being conditioned reality.
(26:35):
You touch the unconditioned,and the unconditioned contains all
the conditioned. And thecondition still is conditioned. It's
just that you can see thatthere are no separations.
Right.
And so it seemed, I mean,that's the way I would express it.
And it seemed like he wasexpressing in a very different way.
If I recall correctly, myinterpretation of that analogy was,
(26:59):
was specifically to recognizethe individual experience. Still
like that. The process ofawakening doesn't negate your experience
of being individual in thecondition space. That's how I kind
of interpreted what he wastrying to say there. That.
No, no, I agree. No, I, Iagree. I just remembered something
(27:23):
else that he said.
I mean, that's essentially allI have to say.
Well, so he said somethingabout people who decide to purge
first person pronouns fromtheir language. Do you remember that?
Like you no longer talk about.I, I thought he had talked about
people experiencing onenessand whatever. It just, it just raised
(27:47):
that idea. Oh, oh, okay.Ontology. So tell me about your phrase,
your place in creation.
The character I play in thedance of life, the stage in the play
in which conventional realityis what we frame it.
Right. Yeah.
Is placed. And, and thecharacter and position that I play
(28:08):
in this current iteration andscene of that creation.
So is that implying a dictateor should an intent like I'm intended
to. There is an intention forme to follow because I thought it
might have that connotation.It had that connotation for me.
So it does, but less so like ashould that there's an alignment
(28:36):
with my higher self in a wayto navigate this time and space in
a way that aligns withwhatever my higher.
Self is, it's purpose. Yeah,yeah, yeah. Because that's something
that came up for me recently.I don't know if I talked about last
(28:56):
time was purpose because in,in a, in a private session, I was
describing this flow of doingthat was not, it was not doing, doing.
Right, right, right. It wasjust like, this is what I'm doing
right now. It's just like I amintroducing myself to people. I am,
you know, talking to someoneabout making meditation available.
(29:21):
There was a littleintellectual thing of should, but
it really didn't feel likehaving the conversation. Didn't feel
like, oh, I should be havingthis conversation. It's like just
totally, I'm having thisconversation. I'm completely present.
Did that feel aligned with purpose?
Very, very much. And. Andthat's so. To me, see, that's moving
(29:45):
out of non doing, but not ina. Not in a conventional way. Maybe
it is non doing. Maybe that isnon doing.
Still say non doing.
Yeah, but see, now I'mstruggling with the fact that I feel
purpose, but I'm not doing.
There's the problem, I guess.
(30:06):
Right?
Yeah.
And. And, and so. So, well, sofor instance, the meditation program
that I'm supposed to write, Ishould write. I haven't been. And
then there's some conflict there.
Okay. So I shouldn't get onyour ass about that.
Yeah, well, we might talkabout accountability.
I'm just kidding.
(30:26):
No, actually. Well, I'll tellyou about it. But so the. The last
notes I had, which areactually the first notes I had on
Chapman, were creation,integration, and relationship, which
I guess I can't really speakto. I thought they were interesting
elements of his talk becausehe did talk about integration. I
(30:47):
can't remember what he saidabout it. He talked about magic as
being creation, which my senseis that was more in alignment with
what you talk about asparticipating in creation by performing
(31:08):
creative acts. And then healso talked about relationship. These
seemed like key concepts to meout of his talk. And relationship
is, for me, like a really bigmarker of awakening experience. Yeah.
I mean, I would say in thepast year, my relationship to relationship
(31:29):
has completely changed.
Right.
All right, so I think I've rundry on Chapman, and I would really
like to talk about the threads model.
Yeah. So thank you forlistening to this extended discussion
on Michael Lydon and AlanChapman. I will link Alan Chapman's
information below. And nextdiscussion, we will be talking about
(31:51):
a new model on. Or analternative model, I suppose, of.
How would you call it?Location or places.
It's a new model of theawakening process.
Yeah. And it's called theThruster. A map. Yes. So tune in
to that episode to learn more.See ya.
Bye. Thank you for listeningto the Tracking Wisdom podcast. Join
(32:21):
us next time as we continuethe discussion. Don't forget to follow
us on Facebook, Instagram andYouTube. And visit www.eth-studio.com
for more information and content.
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