April 17, 2025 • 25 mins
Tracking Wisdom
Episode 21
Decoding Spiritual Experiences: The Utility of the Multi Thread Model
Recorded - 02/03/25
DESCRIPTION
The focal point of our discourse today revolves around the Multi Thread Model, a conceptual framework that offers a more inclusive and adaptable approach to navigating the complexities of personal awakening experiences. This model, accessible through multidharma.net and conceived by Pierce Salguero, serves as a guide for individuals who may feel disheartened or perplexed by traditional pathways of spiritual awakening that do not resonate with their unique experiences. We delve into the intricacies of this model, which allows for a nuanced understanding of diverse experiences such as oneness, emptiness, and the psyche, thereby fostering a sense of empowerment and validation for those on their spiritual journeys. By employing the metaphor of maps, we elucidate how different models possess inherent strengths and weaknesses, advocating for the necessity of a well-equipped toolbox of spiritual tools tailored to individual needs. As we engage with this paradigm, we emphasize the importance of personal exploration and the recognition that one's journey is valid, irrespective of alignment with conventional frameworks.
Takeaways:
- The Multi Thread Model presents a more inclusive approach to spiritual awakening, accommodating diverse personal experiences.
- Traditional models of awakening often impose rigid pathways, which may not resonate with every individual's journey.
- The Threads model emphasizes the importance of recognizing one's unique experiences as valid in the context of spiritual exploration.
- It is crucial to acknowledge that no single thread is required for progression on the awakening path, allowing for personal authenticity.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:05):
Views, interpretations andopinions expressed are not advice
nor official positionspresented on behalf of any organization
or institution. They are forinformational and entertainment purposes
only. Now join Ryan and Peterfor another episode of the Tracking
Wisdom Podcast.
Good morning, everybody. I'm Ryan.
I'm Peter.
(00:25):
And today we're going todiscuss something called the Multi
Thread Model. This isavailable on multidharma.net created
by Pierce Salguero. So it canbe discouraging and even confusing
for people who find themselveson an awakening path or think that
they may be on an awakeningpath and their experience may not
(00:49):
fully find itself in accordwith what popular traditional models
that describe the awakeningpathway. Present in one example is
maybe the conflict betweenthis sense of emptiness versus oneness
and how that kind of has adiscrepant feel and sense to it.
(01:12):
But some people experience anoverwhelming emptiness versus oneness,
and that if the model or thepathway that you're following or
investigating describesemptiness in a way that maybe feels
like it's a requirement in thepathway, that might cause somebody
(01:33):
to be discouraged if they'renot experiencing that, or even find
some confusion in what thatmeans. And so today we're going to
talk about the multi threadmodel and how it presents a pathway
that is a little bit more opento what any one particular person's
pathway may be. And so that'swhat we're going to discuss today.
(01:54):
So the idea of the pathwaysand in the way it's presented on
multidharma.net is that thesemodels are like maps. And maps inherently
have strengths and weaknesses,and their purpose, their utility
is in adopting a map that willgive you the strengths that you need
(02:19):
in that moment and where theweaknesses may not impact your use
of that model. And sotraditional models, in the way that
they've been presentedhistorically, often follow stringent
or very specific pathways ofexperience that one can expect on
(02:39):
their pathway to anenlightenment or an awakening, and
that may not actually bepresent in everybody's experience.
And also, traditional modelstend to use descriptions that seem
more like waypoints and stepsor stages, rather than a continuum
of experience or a spectrumthat allows for a variety of nuance
(03:04):
in what somebody may expect.So for the Threads model, how is
the threads model different? Peter?
Well, it's designed not to mapan expectation and lay out a path,
but it's really designed to bea tool to describe your own path.
It's designed to be applied toone's own personal experience. It's
(03:28):
a way of thinking aboutmapping an awakening experience just
to expand a little bit on theidea of maps and limitations, the
website gives three or fourexamples of different projections
of maps like this. TheMercator projection, there's the
polar projection. And each ofthese maps are useful for different
(03:50):
things, whether it's, youknow, navigating a ship or describing
weather patterns. You know,there are different times when the
different types of projectionsare more useful. The Mercator projection
removes the distortions sothat you can draw a straight line
between two points and you canuse it to navigate, but that creates
(04:12):
other distortions which won'tlet you do things like, and I'm just
saying, for example, weatherpatterns or something like that.
Some other application thatyou might use a map for would be
limited by a certain type ofmap. And so the Threads model is
useful for mapping your ownexperience. When you find your, your
(04:34):
own experience doesn't alignwith the traditional map, it's limited
in that it may be less helpfulthan a traditional map in comparing
your experience to someoneelse who has a similar experience.
So, you know, Ryan and I wouldrefer to the Martin matrix to say,
oh, you know, are you feelingin location three today or are you
(04:55):
feeling in location two today?And it's easy for us to do that.
And we know, we both know whatwe're talking about. If we were to
try to use the Threads modelto do that, even if we were much
more familiar with the model,it probably would be. It's less designed
to do that.
Yeah, yeah. Also the map andthe Threads model is designed as
(05:17):
an alternative tool ifwhatever tool you're using isn't
working or feeling quitealigned, or that there's a weakness
in that tool that is somehowobstructive to your own journey.
And you know, we had beentalking about potentially a traditionalist
in Buddhism or some othermodel might find this model jarring
(05:39):
or in conflict to what theyunderstand. And the idea here is
that this isn't a better map,it's not a worse map, it's just a
different map. And it's adifferent map for those who may find
the traditional trajectory notquite in accord with their own experience.
And I think we want to, youknow, repeat the idea that we're
(06:03):
strong believers in having awell equipped toolbox and that you
have a variety of tools thatyou use according to the situation,
according to the conversationthat you want to have or according
to the specific explorationthat you want to do. You don't preference,
you don't prefer, you know,the trite metaphor is, you know,
(06:24):
you know, you don't preferyour hammer and Then treat everything
as if it's a nail. If you.You're not dealing with the nail,
put down the hammer, pick upyour screwdriver, and use the appropriate
tool. So this is just anotherappropriate tool. It is not the best
tool. It is another map that'sdesigned to fill a gap in the toolbox
of spiritual maps that theCreator saw. He's like, oh, this,
(06:47):
you know, these things aren'tmaking sense to me. What does make
sense and what might help someother people make sense of what they're
experiencing?
Yeah. And he. So he talksabout. He highlights four specific
threads, but that it's not theonly threads. So the threads he highlights
typically are oneness,emptiness, psyche, emptiness, energy
(07:14):
and psyche. And what I foundparticularly resonant about this
idea is, number one, Iappreciate the. The concept that
none of these are required.There's no requisite thread that
everybody needs to experienceat some point in order to progress
to the end result. These aredescribing, for example, emptiness,
(07:38):
the experience or phenomenarelated to non duality and non existent
versus oneness, where theexperience is more of unity and love
and divinity. The energythread is the experience related,
similar to things likekundalini or chi or prana and the
psyche, which is one ofparticular note, both to the author,
(08:03):
but also to Peter, which isthe phenomena relating to unconscious
mind, including some of theintergenerational or ancestral. Ancestral.
Wow, that was a hard one.Trauma and sociocultural issues that
(08:25):
can come across, as we havedescribed, as conditioning. And so
those are the four primarythreads that he describes. But he's
also very specific that yourown, your own pathway and the experiences,
your individualizedexperiences, the things that are
key to your path into yourexperience in the moment are your
(08:48):
threads. And that thesethreads, you may be on a single thread
at any one point in time. Youcan jump threads, but you can also
experience multiple threads atany one time. The thread that I found
most resonant was the oneness.This is the thing that I find most
prominent in my experience isthe unified, the sense of unity with
(09:14):
all of creation and thatunderlying unconditional love and
connectedness to divinity.However, emptiness is a frequently
described experience,particularly I think, in the Buddhist
model. Is that true? Andothers. I'm sure that, you know,
in this space of content,people talk about emptiness. But
(09:35):
if I'm not experiencingemptiness, and I don't even really,
I have a hard time evenconceptualizing what that means.
Does that mean that I'm not onan awakening path? That being the
question that without thiskind of model without this map might
come up to somebody who's notexperiencing the emptiness, but maybe
experiences oneness. And so Ifound that particularly resonant
(09:57):
in this model. And I know yousaid that psyche was a prominent
part of your experience.
Right, Right. So just say, Ithink a little bit about why he starts
with these four threads. Inpart because they're represented
in traditional paths ofawakening, such as shamanic tradition
(10:18):
or yogic tradition or Buddhisttradition or Christian tradition,
and also because in hisconversations with people on awakening
paths, these are commonexperiences. But, you know, as Ryan
said, I think the really keyfeature is that none of them are
requisite. And he, you know,he allows that you could have, you
(10:44):
could experience more thanfour threads in your, in your path,
or you could experience yourentire awakening path on only one
thread. Now, that's lesscommon, but it's not impossible.
And I think the limitation ofa lot of traditional teachings, and,
you know, we always come tothis, but, you know, there's a question
(11:06):
as to whether it's, is it alimitation of the teaching or is
it a limitation of theteacher? Right. When you have teachers
who say, no, that's wrong, youknow, that's, that's not part of
what we're doing, ignore that.That's just a distraction. When someone
more skillful couldpotentially say, okay, if that's
what you're experiencing rightnow, let's work with that. And we
(11:27):
can use that to go deeper andmake progress. And that's the strength
of the multi thread model isthat Pierce offers a way to make
progress from wherever you areand to know that you can come up
with your. Not that you caninvent it, but if your experience
(11:48):
is outside of what's beingdescribed, then you can incorporate
your experience to the model.Audubon James Audubon, great naturalist,
illustrator of bird life,said, and the creator of basically,
you know, birding handbooks,said, if my painting disagrees with
(12:09):
what you're seeing in thefield, if it, if the bird doesn't
match the painting, trust thebird. And I think, I think Pierce
subscribes to that. You know,your experience is what counts. So
one thing I wanted to providein specific, as I said, he offers
a way to progress fromwherever you are. And of course,
(12:32):
it's only in the website. He'sonly describing four threads. So
there are only four methods.But presumably, you know, if he,
if he worked with someoneregarding a thread that's not listed,
he might be able to come upwith another method. But so for each
thread, there's a Question.And if you, an in, if you do this
(12:54):
inquiry, it can help youprogress farther down that thread
towards full, full awakening.So if you were experiencing the sense
of emptiness, the emptinessthread, the inquiry would be from
this perspective. What is itin my experience that still seems
to have a reality to it fromthe oneness thread, or also could
(13:18):
be described as love? Thequestion is, what still seems to
be separate in thisperspective from the energy thread,
what still seems solid orstatic, and from the psyche thread,
what still seems unacceptableor unwelcome? And, and that is interesting
to me because that has been abig part of how I've been taught
(13:41):
is this inquiry into what'sunacceptable. So I guess, I guess
that takes me off in adifferent direction on this. Did
you want to, did you want toaddress something else on the outline
or.
No, I mean, how far are wegoing off course? Let's just go.
Just, Just go with it.
Yeah. So. So one thing as wereviewed this content that was, that
(14:02):
was a little confusing to mewas in talking about psyche or conditioning
or the unconscious thread,Pierce says that in many traditions,
and he names Buddhism inparticular, this is a. What's the
word? It's kind of an outside.It's a deviation from the path. It's
a description. It's a placewhere teachers would tell you, no,
(14:24):
that's not right. And hisexample is that in Buddhism there
are these aspects of psyche,of, you know, subconscious experience
coming up that are called thedefilements and the hindrances. I
was going to say they'recalled defiance, defy defilements
because they are hindrances toawakening. Yes. So in Buddhist traditions,
(14:47):
tradition, they're calledhindrances and they're viewed, as
I said, as hindrances toawakening. But the way I've been
taught is that these, theseexperiences come up like, and, and
these are things likesleepiness, agitation, anger, restlessness,
that they're consideredhindrances. But I've been taught
(15:11):
that they are signs ofdeepening, signs of approaching progress
that we have an opportunity towork with now. And so that was confusing
to me because I think of myteachers being Buddhist. But as I
reflected on it, I realized,oh, this is not traditional Buddhist
(15:34):
teaching. What I'm getting isWestern Buddhism. And Western Buddhism
is, is closely aligned topsychology, to Western psychology.
And in fact, two of myteachers are both practicing Buddhists
and practicing psychologistsare trained as clinical psychologists.
(15:56):
And so if you read the site,as a Western Buddhist, it's possible
that's confusing becauseWestern Buddhists may not be as dogmatic
as traditional Buddhists. AndPierce's background is as an Asian
scholar, and so he's workingfrom original source and you know,
(16:18):
those very specificallyEastern traditions. And I'm kind
of curious to have aconversation with him about what
he thinks of Western bosom is.Does he see this. Does he see this
kind of broadening? So anyway,that's just something I found personally
quite interesting because as Isaid, the way I've been taught and
a lot of the work I dopersonally is looking for resistance,
(16:41):
which is another way of sayingit's unacceptable. Right. And so
Pierce's question of what'sunacceptable is exactly kind of what
I've been working with forgoing on a couple of years now. So
I thought that wasinteresting. And then realizing like,
oh, it's because it's not.It's not strictly Buddhist, it's
not traditional Buddhistapproach. It's actually more of a
(17:02):
psychological kind ofpsychotherapy or Jungian maybe approach
to shadow. Shadow work. So. Soyeah, and then, and then that he
does specifically say thepsyche is described by Jungian theory.
Yeah. So what's your takeaway?
I'm still. Might I need toinvestigate further because I'm.
(17:24):
I'm very curious about whatprogress looks like in this model.
What was very helpful to mewas the idea of kind of simultaneous
or near simultaneousexperience of these different. Or
experience of theseexperiences, so having emptiness
(17:44):
and oneness and conditioning.And I should say that part of the
point of the threads model isto envision a tapestry or as I say,
a patterned sweater that youmight be wearing, you know, and as
you draw your eyes across thepattern, certain threads come to
(18:08):
the front like, oh, now I'm.Here's the white part and here's
the blue part. And the pointis that when you see the white part,
it's not that the blue threadsdon't exist. They're behind the white
part. And when you see theblue part, the white threads, when
you turn your sweater over,the white threads are there behind
everything. So, you know, ifthese things are in your experience
(18:28):
and you shift back and forth,they're not disappearing. Which is
congruent with, you know,Jeffrey's model of fundamental being,
that your fundamental beingcan be masked but it's not disappearing
that he says, you know, peopleoften feel like they're falling out
of fundamental well being whenthey are not. It's possible to fall
(18:51):
out of, well, fundamentalbeing, he says, but it's not as common
as people think it is. It'snot as common as People reporting
it because they lose sight oftheir fundamental well being. And
you know, from a WesternBuddhist perspective, you know, Tara
Brak talks about seeing thegold or the inner wisdom or the true
(19:11):
self, and that this can beobscured by your daily experience
or, you know, yourconditioning. When a driver cuts
you off and like, where'd myBuddha nature go? It's not here at
all. I'm just in road rage.And it's like, no, your Buddha nature
is still there. It's justobscured by your immediate experience.
And so I like the way that thethreads model showed that somehow,
(19:37):
somehow thinking about themulti threads, and for me in particular,
holding these three threadstogether and just knowing that they're
kind of there in a bundle inmy life and that as I go through
time, I see different aspectsof it, different parts at different
(19:58):
times, somehow that was veryhelpful to me. It was very, I don't
know, empowering or reassuringor something. It was, it was meaningful
to me in a way that saying,you know, oh, you're just losing
your sight of your fundamentalbeing or oh, your Buddha nature is
just obscured was less helpfulto me than having this visual of
(20:21):
actual physical threads. Yeah,so that was definitely a strong experience
I had as I read this. I'mlike, oh, wow. Like, it was definitely
a notable experience for me.
Yeah, yeah. I found. So wementioned that it was a potential
weakness of this. But onething that I found useful in conceptualizing
(20:43):
the awakening experience inthis way was in fact the absence
of stages and steps andprogress and being able to kind of
point to, oh, I'm here in thisarea of the journey. And I think
I find that useful because inmy intuitive experience, I think
(21:07):
that intuitively, in myexperience, I don't. So number one,
I think that often the idea ofstages and steps can be interpreted
in a way that iscounterproductive, in a way that
creates jealousy and judgment.Judgment and what's the word?
(21:28):
Striving.
Yeah. Yes. Like, I should behere, I want to get there. And, and
I think that for me, because Ifeel like the experience is very
fluid, conceptualizing it inthis way not only aligns well with
(21:50):
how I, I intuitively kind ofexperience the movement throughout
the path. It also kind ofalleviates some of those shoulds
or. And that can even be like,oh, you know, a pompous thing like,
oh, I'm in, I'm here. And. Butthen if the experience changes in
a way that maybe seems likeyou're falling back, then. Exactly.
(22:15):
And I think that my keytakeaway here is that at least in
the way this model describesthe pathway, you're exactly where
you're supposed to be and whatyou're experiencing is exactly what
you should be experiencing.And if you think you're on a pathway
to awakening, you are. Maybewe all are in some way, shape or
(22:35):
form.
Yeah, that calls to mind forme also the idea of the tools that
are appropriate to you at thetime. So if having a progressive
model is inspiring to you.
Right.
And you're feelingenthusiastic, and I think I'm getting
closer and I'm going to keepon, you know, doing this practice
because it's really, I can,you know, I can see my progress.
(22:58):
Great. If that is helpful toyou, that is a model that you should
be working with. Right. Andthen when you're feeling discouraged
with that, you know, it's notgoing the way you want. Maybe it's
time to pick up a differenttool and look at the multi thread
model and say, yeah,everything's still okay. I can, I
(23:18):
can progress. I mean, this issomething I find curious about the
model is he gives thesequestions as how to progress, but
he doesn't describe whatprogression is. Like, well, how do
I know when I'm progressing?You know, But I think, you know,
I think the gist is you'll.When you know, you know, you know,
you look at you, you do theseinquiries as to, you know, what's
(23:40):
in my experience right now,that's not acceptable. And by doing
that inquiry and openingyourself to the response of the inner
wisdom on that or what? Ireally have a sense of emptiness.
But what is it, you know, Ireally have a sense of emptiness,
but I feel like I'm not fullyawakening. Which you should. And
(24:02):
so what is it that. That stillseems real? Like, oh, everything's
empty, everything's empty.But, oh, if I look hard enough, I
can find something that I justcan't see that as not real. That's
still very solid. That, youknow, that's still very real. So
it's interesting that he givesyou the method. And then of course,
this is part of our continuedexploration because we have opportunity
(24:23):
to talk to, to actually talkto Pierce. I've talked to him a couple
times, but now I'm starting tohave more questions like, so what
is, you know, what does thislook like? So I'm, I am very curious
about that.
It'd be amazing to get him onthe show. I don't know if that can
happen, but someday maybe it will.
It's on the wish list.
Yes, it is. So I hope this washelpful, especially if you have felt
(24:48):
any discouragement orconfusion around your experience
and how it aligns with atraditional model. I encourage you
guys to review multidharma.netand read about the thread model and
ask any questions. Contact usthrough email, email or in the comments
on YouTube and we will see youguys on the next one.
(25:17):
Thank you for listening to theTracking Wisdom podcast. Join us
next time as we continue thediscussion. Don't forget to follow
us on Facebook, Instagram andYouTube, and visit www.ethdstudio.com
for more information and content.
Views, interpretations andopinions expressed are not advice
nor official positionspresented on behalf of any organization
or institution. They are forinformational and entertainment purposes
only. Now join Ryan and Peterfor another episode of the Tracking
Wisdom Podcast.
Good morning, everybody. I'm Ryan.
I'm Peter.
(00:25):
And today we're going todiscuss something called the Multi
Thread Model. This isavailable on multidharma.net created
by Pierce Salguero. So it canbe discouraging and even confusing
for people who find themselveson an awakening path or think that
they may be on an awakeningpath and their experience may not
(00:49):
fully find itself in accordwith what popular traditional models
that describe the awakeningpathway. Present in one example is
maybe the conflict betweenthis sense of emptiness versus oneness
and how that kind of has adiscrepant feel and sense to it.
(01:12):
But some people experience anoverwhelming emptiness versus oneness,
and that if the model or thepathway that you're following or
investigating describesemptiness in a way that maybe feels
like it's a requirement in thepathway, that might cause somebody
(01:33):
to be discouraged if they'renot experiencing that, or even find
some confusion in what thatmeans. And so today we're going to
talk about the multi threadmodel and how it presents a pathway
that is a little bit more opento what any one particular person's
pathway may be. And so that'swhat we're going to discuss today.
(01:54):
So the idea of the pathwaysand in the way it's presented on
multidharma.net is that thesemodels are like maps. And maps inherently
have strengths and weaknesses,and their purpose, their utility
is in adopting a map that willgive you the strengths that you need
(02:19):
in that moment and where theweaknesses may not impact your use
of that model. And sotraditional models, in the way that
they've been presentedhistorically, often follow stringent
or very specific pathways ofexperience that one can expect on
(02:39):
their pathway to anenlightenment or an awakening, and
that may not actually bepresent in everybody's experience.
And also, traditional modelstend to use descriptions that seem
more like waypoints and stepsor stages, rather than a continuum
of experience or a spectrumthat allows for a variety of nuance
(03:04):
in what somebody may expect.So for the Threads model, how is
the threads model different? Peter?
Well, it's designed not to mapan expectation and lay out a path,
but it's really designed to bea tool to describe your own path.
It's designed to be applied toone's own personal experience. It's
(03:28):
a way of thinking aboutmapping an awakening experience just
to expand a little bit on theidea of maps and limitations, the
website gives three or fourexamples of different projections
of maps like this. TheMercator projection, there's the
polar projection. And each ofthese maps are useful for different
(03:50):
things, whether it's, youknow, navigating a ship or describing
weather patterns. You know,there are different times when the
different types of projectionsare more useful. The Mercator projection
removes the distortions sothat you can draw a straight line
between two points and you canuse it to navigate, but that creates
(04:12):
other distortions which won'tlet you do things like, and I'm just
saying, for example, weatherpatterns or something like that.
Some other application thatyou might use a map for would be
limited by a certain type ofmap. And so the Threads model is
useful for mapping your ownexperience. When you find your, your
(04:34):
own experience doesn't alignwith the traditional map, it's limited
in that it may be less helpfulthan a traditional map in comparing
your experience to someoneelse who has a similar experience.
So, you know, Ryan and I wouldrefer to the Martin matrix to say,
oh, you know, are you feelingin location three today or are you
(04:55):
feeling in location two today?And it's easy for us to do that.
And we know, we both know whatwe're talking about. If we were to
try to use the Threads modelto do that, even if we were much
more familiar with the model,it probably would be. It's less designed
to do that.
Yeah, yeah. Also the map andthe Threads model is designed as
(05:17):
an alternative tool ifwhatever tool you're using isn't
working or feeling quitealigned, or that there's a weakness
in that tool that is somehowobstructive to your own journey.
And you know, we had beentalking about potentially a traditionalist
in Buddhism or some othermodel might find this model jarring
(05:39):
or in conflict to what theyunderstand. And the idea here is
that this isn't a better map,it's not a worse map, it's just a
different map. And it's adifferent map for those who may find
the traditional trajectory notquite in accord with their own experience.
And I think we want to, youknow, repeat the idea that we're
(06:03):
strong believers in having awell equipped toolbox and that you
have a variety of tools thatyou use according to the situation,
according to the conversationthat you want to have or according
to the specific explorationthat you want to do. You don't preference,
you don't prefer, you know,the trite metaphor is, you know,
(06:24):
you know, you don't preferyour hammer and Then treat everything
as if it's a nail. If you.You're not dealing with the nail,
put down the hammer, pick upyour screwdriver, and use the appropriate
tool. So this is just anotherappropriate tool. It is not the best
tool. It is another map that'sdesigned to fill a gap in the toolbox
of spiritual maps that theCreator saw. He's like, oh, this,
(06:47):
you know, these things aren'tmaking sense to me. What does make
sense and what might help someother people make sense of what they're
experiencing?
Yeah. And he. So he talksabout. He highlights four specific
threads, but that it's not theonly threads. So the threads he highlights
typically are oneness,emptiness, psyche, emptiness, energy
(07:14):
and psyche. And what I foundparticularly resonant about this
idea is, number one, Iappreciate the. The concept that
none of these are required.There's no requisite thread that
everybody needs to experienceat some point in order to progress
to the end result. These aredescribing, for example, emptiness,
(07:38):
the experience or phenomenarelated to non duality and non existent
versus oneness, where theexperience is more of unity and love
and divinity. The energythread is the experience related,
similar to things likekundalini or chi or prana and the
psyche, which is one ofparticular note, both to the author,
(08:03):
but also to Peter, which isthe phenomena relating to unconscious
mind, including some of theintergenerational or ancestral. Ancestral.
Wow, that was a hard one.Trauma and sociocultural issues that
(08:25):
can come across, as we havedescribed, as conditioning. And so
those are the four primarythreads that he describes. But he's
also very specific that yourown, your own pathway and the experiences,
your individualizedexperiences, the things that are
key to your path into yourexperience in the moment are your
(08:48):
threads. And that thesethreads, you may be on a single thread
at any one point in time. Youcan jump threads, but you can also
experience multiple threads atany one time. The thread that I found
most resonant was the oneness.This is the thing that I find most
prominent in my experience isthe unified, the sense of unity with
(09:14):
all of creation and thatunderlying unconditional love and
connectedness to divinity.However, emptiness is a frequently
described experience,particularly I think, in the Buddhist
model. Is that true? Andothers. I'm sure that, you know,
in this space of content,people talk about emptiness. But
(09:35):
if I'm not experiencingemptiness, and I don't even really,
I have a hard time evenconceptualizing what that means.
Does that mean that I'm not onan awakening path? That being the
question that without thiskind of model without this map might
come up to somebody who's notexperiencing the emptiness, but maybe
experiences oneness. And so Ifound that particularly resonant
(09:57):
in this model. And I know yousaid that psyche was a prominent
part of your experience.
Right, Right. So just say, Ithink a little bit about why he starts
with these four threads. Inpart because they're represented
in traditional paths ofawakening, such as shamanic tradition
(10:18):
or yogic tradition or Buddhisttradition or Christian tradition,
and also because in hisconversations with people on awakening
paths, these are commonexperiences. But, you know, as Ryan
said, I think the really keyfeature is that none of them are
requisite. And he, you know,he allows that you could have, you
(10:44):
could experience more thanfour threads in your, in your path,
or you could experience yourentire awakening path on only one
thread. Now, that's lesscommon, but it's not impossible.
And I think the limitation ofa lot of traditional teachings, and,
you know, we always come tothis, but, you know, there's a question
(11:06):
as to whether it's, is it alimitation of the teaching or is
it a limitation of theteacher? Right. When you have teachers
who say, no, that's wrong, youknow, that's, that's not part of
what we're doing, ignore that.That's just a distraction. When someone
more skillful couldpotentially say, okay, if that's
what you're experiencing rightnow, let's work with that. And we
(11:27):
can use that to go deeper andmake progress. And that's the strength
of the multi thread model isthat Pierce offers a way to make
progress from wherever you areand to know that you can come up
with your. Not that you caninvent it, but if your experience
(11:48):
is outside of what's beingdescribed, then you can incorporate
your experience to the model.Audubon James Audubon, great naturalist,
illustrator of bird life,said, and the creator of basically,
you know, birding handbooks,said, if my painting disagrees with
(12:09):
what you're seeing in thefield, if it, if the bird doesn't
match the painting, trust thebird. And I think, I think Pierce
subscribes to that. You know,your experience is what counts. So
one thing I wanted to providein specific, as I said, he offers
a way to progress fromwherever you are. And of course,
(12:32):
it's only in the website. He'sonly describing four threads. So
there are only four methods.But presumably, you know, if he,
if he worked with someoneregarding a thread that's not listed,
he might be able to come upwith another method. But so for each
thread, there's a Question.And if you, an in, if you do this
(12:54):
inquiry, it can help youprogress farther down that thread
towards full, full awakening.So if you were experiencing the sense
of emptiness, the emptinessthread, the inquiry would be from
this perspective. What is itin my experience that still seems
to have a reality to it fromthe oneness thread, or also could
(13:18):
be described as love? Thequestion is, what still seems to
be separate in thisperspective from the energy thread,
what still seems solid orstatic, and from the psyche thread,
what still seems unacceptableor unwelcome? And, and that is interesting
to me because that has been abig part of how I've been taught
(13:41):
is this inquiry into what'sunacceptable. So I guess, I guess
that takes me off in adifferent direction on this. Did
you want to, did you want toaddress something else on the outline
or.
No, I mean, how far are wegoing off course? Let's just go.
Just, Just go with it.
Yeah. So. So one thing as wereviewed this content that was, that
(14:02):
was a little confusing to mewas in talking about psyche or conditioning
or the unconscious thread,Pierce says that in many traditions,
and he names Buddhism inparticular, this is a. What's the
word? It's kind of an outside.It's a deviation from the path. It's
a description. It's a placewhere teachers would tell you, no,
(14:24):
that's not right. And hisexample is that in Buddhism there
are these aspects of psyche,of, you know, subconscious experience
coming up that are called thedefilements and the hindrances. I
was going to say they'recalled defiance, defy defilements
because they are hindrances toawakening. Yes. So in Buddhist traditions,
(14:47):
tradition, they're calledhindrances and they're viewed, as
I said, as hindrances toawakening. But the way I've been
taught is that these, theseexperiences come up like, and, and
these are things likesleepiness, agitation, anger, restlessness,
that they're consideredhindrances. But I've been taught
(15:11):
that they are signs ofdeepening, signs of approaching progress
that we have an opportunity towork with now. And so that was confusing
to me because I think of myteachers being Buddhist. But as I
reflected on it, I realized,oh, this is not traditional Buddhist
(15:34):
teaching. What I'm getting isWestern Buddhism. And Western Buddhism
is, is closely aligned topsychology, to Western psychology.
And in fact, two of myteachers are both practicing Buddhists
and practicing psychologistsare trained as clinical psychologists.
(15:56):
And so if you read the site,as a Western Buddhist, it's possible
that's confusing becauseWestern Buddhists may not be as dogmatic
as traditional Buddhists. AndPierce's background is as an Asian
scholar, and so he's workingfrom original source and you know,
(16:18):
those very specificallyEastern traditions. And I'm kind
of curious to have aconversation with him about what
he thinks of Western bosom is.Does he see this. Does he see this
kind of broadening? So anyway,that's just something I found personally
quite interesting because as Isaid, the way I've been taught and
a lot of the work I dopersonally is looking for resistance,
(16:41):
which is another way of sayingit's unacceptable. Right. And so
Pierce's question of what'sunacceptable is exactly kind of what
I've been working with forgoing on a couple of years now. So
I thought that wasinteresting. And then realizing like,
oh, it's because it's not.It's not strictly Buddhist, it's
not traditional Buddhistapproach. It's actually more of a
(17:02):
psychological kind ofpsychotherapy or Jungian maybe approach
to shadow. Shadow work. So. Soyeah, and then, and then that he
does specifically say thepsyche is described by Jungian theory.
Yeah. So what's your takeaway?
I'm still. Might I need toinvestigate further because I'm.
(17:24):
I'm very curious about whatprogress looks like in this model.
What was very helpful to mewas the idea of kind of simultaneous
or near simultaneousexperience of these different. Or
experience of theseexperiences, so having emptiness
(17:44):
and oneness and conditioning.And I should say that part of the
point of the threads model isto envision a tapestry or as I say,
a patterned sweater that youmight be wearing, you know, and as
you draw your eyes across thepattern, certain threads come to
(18:08):
the front like, oh, now I'm.Here's the white part and here's
the blue part. And the pointis that when you see the white part,
it's not that the blue threadsdon't exist. They're behind the white
part. And when you see theblue part, the white threads, when
you turn your sweater over,the white threads are there behind
everything. So, you know, ifthese things are in your experience
(18:28):
and you shift back and forth,they're not disappearing. Which is
congruent with, you know,Jeffrey's model of fundamental being,
that your fundamental beingcan be masked but it's not disappearing
that he says, you know, peopleoften feel like they're falling out
of fundamental well being whenthey are not. It's possible to fall
(18:51):
out of, well, fundamentalbeing, he says, but it's not as common
as people think it is. It'snot as common as People reporting
it because they lose sight oftheir fundamental well being. And
you know, from a WesternBuddhist perspective, you know, Tara
Brak talks about seeing thegold or the inner wisdom or the true
(19:11):
self, and that this can beobscured by your daily experience
or, you know, yourconditioning. When a driver cuts
you off and like, where'd myBuddha nature go? It's not here at
all. I'm just in road rage.And it's like, no, your Buddha nature
is still there. It's justobscured by your immediate experience.
And so I like the way that thethreads model showed that somehow,
(19:37):
somehow thinking about themulti threads, and for me in particular,
holding these three threadstogether and just knowing that they're
kind of there in a bundle inmy life and that as I go through
time, I see different aspectsof it, different parts at different
(19:58):
times, somehow that was veryhelpful to me. It was very, I don't
know, empowering or reassuringor something. It was, it was meaningful
to me in a way that saying,you know, oh, you're just losing
your sight of your fundamentalbeing or oh, your Buddha nature is
just obscured was less helpfulto me than having this visual of
(20:21):
actual physical threads. Yeah,so that was definitely a strong experience
I had as I read this. I'mlike, oh, wow. Like, it was definitely
a notable experience for me.
Yeah, yeah. I found. So wementioned that it was a potential
weakness of this. But onething that I found useful in conceptualizing
(20:43):
the awakening experience inthis way was in fact the absence
of stages and steps andprogress and being able to kind of
point to, oh, I'm here in thisarea of the journey. And I think
I find that useful because inmy intuitive experience, I think
(21:07):
that intuitively, in myexperience, I don't. So number one,
I think that often the idea ofstages and steps can be interpreted
in a way that iscounterproductive, in a way that
creates jealousy and judgment.Judgment and what's the word?
(21:28):
Striving.
Yeah. Yes. Like, I should behere, I want to get there. And, and
I think that for me, because Ifeel like the experience is very
fluid, conceptualizing it inthis way not only aligns well with
(21:50):
how I, I intuitively kind ofexperience the movement throughout
the path. It also kind ofalleviates some of those shoulds
or. And that can even be like,oh, you know, a pompous thing like,
oh, I'm in, I'm here. And. Butthen if the experience changes in
a way that maybe seems likeyou're falling back, then. Exactly.
(22:15):
And I think that my keytakeaway here is that at least in
the way this model describesthe pathway, you're exactly where
you're supposed to be and whatyou're experiencing is exactly what
you should be experiencing.And if you think you're on a pathway
to awakening, you are. Maybewe all are in some way, shape or
(22:35):
form.
Yeah, that calls to mind forme also the idea of the tools that
are appropriate to you at thetime. So if having a progressive
model is inspiring to you.
Right.
And you're feelingenthusiastic, and I think I'm getting
closer and I'm going to keepon, you know, doing this practice
because it's really, I can,you know, I can see my progress.
(22:58):
Great. If that is helpful toyou, that is a model that you should
be working with. Right. Andthen when you're feeling discouraged
with that, you know, it's notgoing the way you want. Maybe it's
time to pick up a differenttool and look at the multi thread
model and say, yeah,everything's still okay. I can, I
(23:18):
can progress. I mean, this issomething I find curious about the
model is he gives thesequestions as how to progress, but
he doesn't describe whatprogression is. Like, well, how do
I know when I'm progressing?You know, But I think, you know,
I think the gist is you'll.When you know, you know, you know,
you look at you, you do theseinquiries as to, you know, what's
(23:40):
in my experience right now,that's not acceptable. And by doing
that inquiry and openingyourself to the response of the inner
wisdom on that or what? Ireally have a sense of emptiness.
But what is it, you know, Ireally have a sense of emptiness,
but I feel like I'm not fullyawakening. Which you should. And
(24:02):
so what is it that. That stillseems real? Like, oh, everything's
empty, everything's empty.But, oh, if I look hard enough, I
can find something that I justcan't see that as not real. That's
still very solid. That, youknow, that's still very real. So
it's interesting that he givesyou the method. And then of course,
this is part of our continuedexploration because we have opportunity
(24:23):
to talk to, to actually talkto Pierce. I've talked to him a couple
times, but now I'm starting tohave more questions like, so what
is, you know, what does thislook like? So I'm, I am very curious
about that.
It'd be amazing to get him onthe show. I don't know if that can
happen, but someday maybe it will.
It's on the wish list.
Yes, it is. So I hope this washelpful, especially if you have felt
(24:48):
any discouragement orconfusion around your experience
and how it aligns with atraditional model. I encourage you
guys to review multidharma.netand read about the thread model and
ask any questions. Contact usthrough email, email or in the comments
on YouTube and we will see youguys on the next one.
(25:17):
Thank you for listening to theTracking Wisdom podcast. Join us
next time as we continue thediscussion. Don't forget to follow
us on Facebook, Instagram andYouTube, and visit www.ethdstudio.com
for more information and content.
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