November 27, 2025 • 29 mins
Tracking Wisdom
Episode 38
Mindfulness - Cultivating Presence in Everyday Life
Recorded - 10/27/25
DESCRIPTION
Mindfulness, defined as focused attention on the present experience, is the central theme of our discourse today on the Tracking Wisdom Podcast. We engage in an enlightening conversation with our esteemed mindfulness instructor, Peter, who shares his personal journey into mindfulness and elaborates on the misconceptions surrounding the practice, particularly the notion that one must "empty the mind." As we delve into the intricacies of mindfulness mediation, we explore the significance of observation and kind attention, emphasizing that the essence of meditation lies in recognizing the wandering mind rather than striving for an unattainable stillness. Through this exploration, we aim to provide insights that can enhance your understanding of mindfulness and its applicability in daily life. We invite you to join us on this profound journey towards cultivating presence and awareness in our everyday experiences.
Takeaways:
- Mindfulness is defined as the focused attention on the present moment's experience, which facilitates greater awareness.
- The misconception that meditation's goal is to empty the mind is a misunderstanding of its true purpose.
- Mindfulness meditation involves observing one's thoughts and feelings without judgment, fostering a kinder approach to oneself.
- Establishing a consistent meditation practice can be beneficial, but it is essential to adapt it to individual needs.
Episode Resources
- Jack Kornfield - Jack Kornfield trained as a Buddhist monk in Thailand, India, and Burma. He holds a Ph.D. in clinical psychology and is a founding teacher of the Insight Meditation Society in Massachusetts and Spirit Rock Meditation Center in California. He is one of the key teachers to introduce mindfulness practice to the West, has taught internationally since 1974, and is the author of 16 books which have sold 2 million copies.
- Tara Brach - Meditation, Psychologist, Author, Teacher
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Foreign.
You're listening to theTracking Wisdom Podcast, exploring
the universal truths that wesee woven through culture, consciousness,
and the human experience.
Good morning, everybody, andwelcome back to another episode of
(00:21):
the Tracking Wisdom Podcast.
I'm Ryan.
I'm Peter.
And today we are talking aboutmindfulness, the art of mindful living
and cultivating presence ineveryday life.
And we are joined today by ourcertified mindfulness instructor,
Peter.
So today I wanted to talkabout mindfulness in general and
(00:41):
query Peter about hisexperience with mindfulness and mindfulness
practice.
So, Peter, just to getstarted, in your own words, for those
who may not know, how wouldyou describe mindfulness or what
is mindfulness?
Mindfulness is focusedattention on the current experience
in the present moment.
(01:01):
How did you get into mindfulness?
Well, it goes back Star Wars.
Star Wars.
Interesting.
Yeah.
I saw an article.
This is back when I was in my 20s.
I think I was still adisaffected youth.
Maybe I was not happy.
I was not happy.
And I saw an ARC article onthe Jedi, and it is describing the
(01:26):
Jedi as based in Zen in some way.
And, you know, how they werecalm and purposeful and directed
and like Zen, you know, likeconcepts of Zen Buddhism.
I was like, oh, what's that?
So that's literally my gateway.
I was like, oh, let me lookinto Zen.
That sounds interesting.
And so I started reading aboutZen meditation, not so much about
(01:48):
Zen Buddhism.
I remember Three Pillars ofZen by Philip Keplo was like, there
were not that many books.
That was.
That was a big one.
Is mindfulness part of Zen?
Mindfulness is very central toZen Buddhism.
So is mindfulness meditationlike the definition of Buddhist meditation,
(02:09):
or is it just one type of meditation?
It's just one type.
Okay, interesting.
What do you think is the mostcommon misconception?
Empty your mind.
Okay, explain that.
That's easy.
Because what one might callemptying of the mind is a byproduct
of meditation.
It's not the goal of meditation.
(02:30):
One can make it one's goal.
You can choose to meditate forwhatever purpose you choose.
But, I mean, it's not.
It is not the purpose of meditation.
It's most certainly not how todo it.
It's a byproduct.
Mindfulness meditation reallystarts with observation.
And so to start withmanipulate your mind by emptying
(02:51):
it is contrary to my lineage,which is Jack Kornfield and Tara
Brock.
Jack is from the Thai forest lineage.
What's the difference?
It's just a particular cultureor region of Buddhist culture.
I kind of don't want to getinto a technical discussion of different
kinds of Buddhism, because Ithink mindfulness meditation is more
(03:14):
interesting.
It's just he's a clinicalpsychologist who was a monk in the
Thai forest under his teacherAjahn Chah.
I see.
So, okay, old school traditional.
Tara doesn't have quite thesame background.
She's also a clinicalpsychologist, but came from a yoga
background before she got into mindfulness.
(03:35):
And they are two really majorWestern meditation teachers.
How would you recommenddiscussing or teaching around the
emptying of the mind?
Right.
So I think it's a very commonform of suffering, which is why people
think it's the goal ofmeditation, why it's a desirable
end product.
(03:55):
Right.
I think, especially in thewest, we're aware of how much we
think and how much ourthoughts cause suffering and how
much we have intrusive thoughts.
So I guess the misconceptionis that you can boss that around
and just empty your mind, youknow, stop your intrusive thoughts.
If it was that easy, peoplewould have thought.
(04:16):
Exactly.
It's a very strange instruction.
I think it happens becauseit's in the cultural vernacular and
not because it's a meaningful instruction.
I think that when a teachersays that they mean a thing, but
they don't mean literally.
Now empty your mind.
They mean, I think, stopattaching so much importance to your
(04:37):
thoughts.
Right.
Which may have the feeling ofempty your mind, but it's not emptying
your mind.
So I mean, the essence ofmeditation is kind attention to the
present experience in thepresent moment.
I guess there's an idea ofquiet, because I was going to say
quiet yourself.
It's a tradition to sit stillwhen you learn mindfulness meditation.
(04:58):
But even that sitting still isnot essential to mindfulness meditation
because there's a variety offorms of movement meditation.
One of the most traditional iswalking meditation.
You're just not still, butyou're still paying attention to
your experience.
Okay, so let's go back to themore common sitting still.
Right.
(05:18):
So you sit and you stop moving around.
It's basically to help youfocus your attention so that there
are fewer distractions.
So you stop moving around.
You try to sit still and payattention to what your experience
is.
I guess I should start withjust the concept of the anchor, which
is it's a tool which you makesomething the object of your meditation.
(05:39):
The most common one is thebreath as an anchor.
And the traditionalinstruction going back to the time
of Buddha is following thebreath at the tip of the nose.
And you can see pieces oftraditional Buddhist art which actually
show streams of air comingfrom his nose.
But again, you know, that'sjust a single instruction.
(06:00):
That piece of art is just asingle piece of art representing
a single snapshot of ameditation experience.
It's not essential havingsomething to which to direct your
attention.
Having that anchor for themind is what's essential.
So it could be the breath, itcould be your finger, your palm,
the sound of your own breathing.
It could be the sound,whatever ambient sound is around
(06:22):
you.
It could be a candle flame.
Basically, any of your senses,including your mental experience,
can be anchors.
You just direct your.
Your attention to that anchorand keep it there as long as you
can and see what happens.
And that's really the key issee what happens.
And what happens is not thatyour mind becomes quiet.
(06:42):
What happens is that your mindstarts to wander.
It might wander instantlywithin the space of a breath, or
it might wander after a little bit.
You know, if you.
If your inherent quality ofstillness or concentration is a little
bit higher than average, youmight maintain your attention on
whatever anchor you choose fora little bit longer.
(07:03):
But inevitably, the universalexperience is that your mind wanders.
And then the next thing thathappens is eventually you notice
your mind wandering, becausevery often you do not notice that
your mind's wandering.
You say, I'm going to sit downand meditate.
You start with your anchor,and then your mind wanders, and you
(07:24):
have a thought, and you startfollowing that thought into a train
of thoughts.
And you're planning dinner,and you're planning dinner, and you
remember something else thatyou ate, and then you remember the
person you ate it with, andyou remember how you got there, and
you remember the cab ridewasn't very nice, and you're just
off in this total fantasywhich has nothing to do with the
present moment.
(07:44):
And then you go, oh, my God,I'm supposed to be meditating.
And that's the essence ofmeditation, mindfulness meditation.
Right there is that, oh, myGod, I'm supposed to be meditating,
where you recognize that yourmind has wandered, and then you bring
it back to the anchor.
But the moment of recognition,the moment of recognizing what the
mind is doing and how the mindis working or behaving or performing.
(08:07):
That's the mindfulness.
And so the purpose of sittingstill and having the anchor is to
kind of set up controlconditions, like a little experiment,
so that you can more easilyobserve that moment of, oh, oh, my
gosh, I thought I was incontrol of my mind, and I didn't
even realize it was wanderingall over the place.
So mindfulness meditation.
Yeah, Kind of setting up alittle controlled experiment.
(08:30):
So you're eliminating thesedistracting variables so you can
more clearly see the thingthat you're trying to study, which
is your mind.
And as you progress inpractice, just as inevitably as we
first sit down, inevitablyyour mind wanders.
And eventually you say, oh,I've been, I've recognized the money.
Now just to say you couldspend, you could set a 30 minute
(08:52):
timer and not remember untilyour timer goes off that you were
supposed to be managing.
It's a very common experience.
You could set a five minutetimer and have the same experience.
And equally as well, you haveyour mind wander and after a few
seconds say, oh gee, you justhappen to recognize, oh, my mind
was wandering.
So all of those variables, allthose different experiences are legitimate
(09:14):
and common.
But when you have that, oh mygosh, I'm supposed to be meditating,
that's kind of the firstexperience of mindfulness.
It's the first taste andeverything builds from there.
So as I was saying, there's aninevitability to practice that if
you practice longer,eventually the time it takes you
to recognize that your mindwandered gets shorter.
(09:35):
And so when you begin, yourconcentration is very good and you're
able to maintain yourattention for a while before your
mind wanders off.
Maybe you, you know, prettysoon after it monitors off, you recognize
it and you bring it back,it'll still get shorter, like it'll
still get better.
It's just practice.
Which is why people joke.
It's why you call it, it'scalled meditation practice.
It's really not.
But of the consequence ofengaging in a practice is that things
(09:58):
change.
Right.
And so how long and what theactual curve is and what your actual
path of experience iscompletely depends on individuality
of the person, like theirbackground, their conditioning, their
physicality.
I mean, everything that makesyou, you as an individual is going
to feed into this, buteventually it gets shorter and tighter.
(10:19):
And as you notice how thelength of attention or the quickness
of recognizing that yourattention wandered as things change,
I think you'll perceive thatas the mind quieting.
Interesting.
Yeah.
Is there a difference betweenattention and observation?
And I guess what I'm pointingto is we say an anchor for attention,
(10:41):
but we're also trying toobserve the present moment.
Are those two different things?
So the reason that I use theword observation is because it's
kind of a passive aspect ofattention, which, by which I mean
you're not manipulating.
Right.
If you're an observer, you'renot manipulating the thing you're
(11:01):
observing.
You're just leaving alone.
And that's what's meant bykind attention is.
Another immediate tendency isto judge what just happened.
My mind wandered.
I'm no good at this.
I can't meditate or, you know,darn, those kids are making noise.
They're preventing me from.
You know, it might not beinternally directed.
It might be directed extra.
(11:22):
You kids be quiet.
I'm trying to meditate.
You know, there's a resistanceto the thing that happens, which
is your mind wandered.
And so the intention that'sneeded as you start is kindness and
compassion, uneasiness withwhatever happens, an acceptance of,
I'm going to have theintention to keep my attention focused
on this anchor.
(11:42):
And I have the intention to begentle and kind of with whatever
happens and to be accepting of it.
It may be that you don't meeteither of those intentions.
You may not maintain yourfocus, and you may not be kind about
what happens after, but that'sthe intention.
And then you observe how yourexperience matches your intention.
(12:03):
And then you go back and youdo it again, and you just rinse and
repeat.
And I should say that thisrinse and repeat can be within the
space of seconds.
It's not, you know, the nexttime you sit down, it's like, you
sat for 30 seconds, your mindwandered, you noticed it.
You beat yourself upmomentarily, and you're like, oh,
okay, I'm not doing a verygood job of being kind to myself.
All right, be better at being kind.
(12:23):
I mean, it's just all thisprocess happens, and you just keep
on watching.
It's like, so how mean are youbeing to yourself?
What's going on there?
And eventually, hopefully, youknow, if you don't get caught in
the habitual pattern of justbeating yourself up or just being
annoyed at the obstacles, thedistractions, but you actually start
(12:45):
to focus on the intention ofkindness and acceptance.
Everything starts to softenand loosen up, and the periods of
tension lengthen and theexperience of kindness increases.
It becomes easier.
I think that was the firstthing that I learned over a long
time of meditating at thebeginning was to stop criticizing
(13:08):
myself, to stop criticizing mypractice, so that while I was on
the cushion, I was not criticizing.
And that was a hugeimprovement for me.
And I don't know exactly.
I think it took quite a longtime for that to happen.
By the time I noticed it, itwas already very familiar, and I
didn't really remembercriticizing myself.
But I know that for years Iwas struggling to be A better meditator.
(13:34):
And it's not all criticism, too.
It's like, I'm doing a great job.
That's another thought.
That's another reaction we canhave to our experience of meditating.
And that's just the same asbeating yourself up.
Yeah, it can be.
I mean, it's another passing judgment.
It's potential.
It's a judgment.
Exactly.
Thank you, Ryan.
Is there a difference betweenmindfulness and mindfulness meditation?
(13:58):
Is there a conceptual elementof mindfulness?
I don't know that there's anexplicit difference.
I think there's an easyconceptual distinction to be made,
which is that when you have achosen anchor, then you're meditating.
And so you may be active oryou may be still, but you have a
(14:19):
chosen anchor of attention,and you're observing what is happening
to your attention, to your mind.
And that, I would say, ismindfulness meditation.
Mindfulness, I think, is aquality that.
That grows out of the practicewhere you just start to notice things.
And an experience that I can report.
Well, in fact, I think peoplehave heard me.
(14:39):
I forgot we're on a podcast here.
Getting into my ownconversational space here.
But certainly, you know,you've heard me report out my experience.
And it's not because I'msitting here in the podcast meditating.
It's because become mindful.
Or I'm having.
I'm reporting an instance of mindfulness.
So I would say mindfulness isa kind of skill that develops out
(15:01):
of the practice of mindfulness meditation.
Mindfulness meditation is thespecific practice which I think would
be fair to say is intended togenerate mindfulness.
And then, because theconsequence of having mindfulness
is you suffer less, you findyou notice that your mind is doing
(15:21):
unhelpful things, and thenkind of stop attaching to those unhelpful
patterns in a way that isincreasing your suffering and that
therefore decreases your suffering.
What would you say to somebodythat says, I can't meditate?
How do you respond to that?
Kind of.
Yes.
So I would say that's thesecond misconception.
(15:41):
You know, big secret that Isay, which is, you can't fail at
meditation.
You can only have different experiences.
You can have experiences thatyou don't like, but that's not failing.
As long as you notice that youhad that experience, then you're.
You're doing it, which is whyit can be helpful to have a teacher.
So I meditated for, like, 40years without having a teacher.
(16:02):
Yeah.
So even so, at one point, Iwas at a zendo in New York.
When I was first starting, Iwas living in New York City.
There was a zendo there, a Zentemple which had a free meditation
session every week, and I wentto that.
And there was a teacher there.
There was an abbot there atthe zendo, but he wasn't my teacher,
so I never had the opportunityto discuss my practice with him.
(16:26):
So that doesn't count.
Although, you know, in a way,he's definitely part of my lineage
because he affected myexperience of meditation.
Jack and Tara I listened to oncassette tapes for years, and then,
you know, and then on podcast, and.
And so I've been in contactwith their teachings for many years,
(16:46):
but they weren't my teachersbecause there was no.
In the sense that there was no interaction.
Right.
So it's helpful to have aguide or a coach, a teacher, in that
sense, an interactiveexperience, someone with whom you
can discuss your experiencereally can accelerate your understanding
of what's going on.
I don't want to say get ateacher, because that's not necessarily
(17:07):
the solution, but you.
You need to have thatinstruction, that additional instruction
of you can't fail at meditation.
You can only have experiencethat you don't like, and that in
itself is part of the meditation.
I mean, mindfulness meditationis studying your experience.
And because you're studyingyour experience, you can't fail.
(17:29):
You can only choose not to do it.
How long or how often is bestfor creating a practice?
Oh, Ryan.
Yeah, so there's.
There's no right answer.
Okay.
I would recommend trying to doit daily.
Like setting the intention todo it daily, but then again, doing
that in itself becomes part ofthe meditation experience.
(17:50):
It's like, oh, you.
You set the intention to do itseven days this week.
How many days did you do it?
2.
How do you feel about that?
Right?
I mean, it's.
Well, okay, so now what are you.
What are you doing about thefact that you only did it for two
days?
You know, is your.
Are you allowing your mind todo things with that information or
you just saying, okay, nextweek, same goal, seven days.
(18:11):
See what happens any number of days.
If you do one one day a week,there's nothing wrong with that.
If you want to be ambitiousand set, I'm going to sit every single
day for the next week?
There's nothing wrong withthat either.
There's nothing wrong withfailing at either one.
As long as you have kindattention for whatever happens, whether
you fail or you don't fail.
(18:31):
And also helpful hint, if yousucceed in seven out of seven days,
there's Nothing wrong withbeing excited about, oh my God.
Yeah, it's great.
Like, it's fine to be reallyhappy about it.
It's less helpful to be reallyunhappy about failing.
But again, both of thosethings are just responses, and they're
just part of your experience.
Everything's just part of your experience.
I would offer start with fiveminutes each time.
(18:54):
There's no reason not to do 10or 20 or 30.
If your qualities ofdiscipline and focus are already
high because you do somethingelse that requires you to focus for
periods of time, why not do itthat way?
You might be a musician who'saccustomed to practicing for long
periods.
So do this for that, you know,doesn't mean you can succeed any
(19:15):
better.
If you know you have a reallypoor attention span, don't give yourself
an hour.
Yeah, you know, if you knowthat your body doesn't like to sit
still for long periods oftime, don't start with half an hour.
Start with something that'sreasonably comfortable.
If you only can do one minutea day for seven days, that success,
even if your goal is 30minutes, but did one minute, you
(19:36):
still remembered and made theeffort to meditate for a period of
time, even if it was only one minute.
So I'm super busy and I hateto sit still.
What are my options?
There's a story.
There's a story.
Someone asked the teacher, howmuch should I meditate?
Meditate for half an hour?
Well, I don't have enough timeto meditate, so meditate for an hour.
(19:57):
I don't know the point of that.
It just came to mind becauseit's funny, but you're busy and you
don't like to sit still.
So find an activity and ananchor that you can use while you're
being busy in that city still.
So a classic one is dishwashing.
Just paying attention to eachdish that you pick up and to each
(20:19):
action that you take as youare washing the dishes.
So this is a slightly morecomplex anchor, but probably suits
you if you have a busy mind tendency.
Right.
You're just paying attentionto everything in your experience.
I would start with the handsand the eyes, the temperature of
the water, the sensation ofthe suds, the appearance of the food
(20:42):
on the dishes, the food comingoff the dishes.
Just immersing yourself inthat experience is mindfulness meditation.
So you really can do it withany activity.
Trying to think what thelimitation is.
I think, you know, the reasonyou wouldn't do that is because the.
The reason the traditionalinstruction isn't that way is because
(21:03):
there's more tendency to getdistracted when you're doing something
like washing the dishes.
Like I need to wash thedishes, I need to get to the next
thing.
Those are things that wouldcome up in your practice of like
you're rushing or, you know,whatever, but those are just.
That's just more kind ofmaterial fodder, if you will, for
the process.
Do you like to exercise?
(21:24):
Do you like to run?
I find that I bring mymeditation to exercise.
Exercise.
I'm just very mindful of themotion that I'm doing.
That's part of my personalityis I'm very technique oriented.
And so that helps me though aslike, oh, this is the anchor of my
meditation.
I mean, I'm not intentionallysaying this is the anchor of my meditation,
but it ends up being that way.
Like I know that to optimizeand this is my external mental process,
(21:48):
kind of external to the meditations.
I know when I go to start aworkout, I'm doing specific exercises.
I want to use good for form tooptimize the benefit of my.
It's not why I'm thinkingabout while I'm doing it, but as
a consequence of thatorientation, when I go to work out,
I'm moving a weight.
All of my attention is on howam I moving that weight and what
(22:09):
is the experience of my bodywhen I'm moving that weight.
Is it uncomfortable?
Am I over challenging myself?
How tired am I?
I mean, I'm very much payingattention to the entire experience
of performing that exercise.
Not want to wear a headset orlisten to something intentionally
while I'm exercising.
Exception is if I'm doing anaerobic exercise, I'm usually listening
(22:31):
to something because I have alot of stuff to listen to.
But when I'm doing strengthtraining, I'm essentially meditating.
And I would say when I used torun that cerrobic exercise, I would
do also without audio.
And I'm just focused on thatexperience of running and paying
attention to what's going on.
So those can definitely bemade into mindfulness meditation
(22:51):
practice for the right match.
You know, if that matches you,then there's no reason that can't
be a very effectivemindfulness meditation.
I don't think that's most people.
And that's why meditation isgenerally taught sitting.
Because again, speaking to thebell curve, as I have in the past,
right.
For most people, most of thetime, that's the most convenient
(23:13):
and conducive thing.
And then there are all exceptions.
So what you said about theexercise and I guess I Had images.
I mean, not necessarily flowstate, like you're in the peak performance
of your craft, but being inthe moment, say, sounds like it could
be a common experience formany people that exercise.
And I wonder how many peopleare meditating and not knowing it.
(23:37):
I be absolutely certain thatit happens.
Yeah, absolutely certain.
Without question.
The distinction to make is,what are you doing with those observations?
Right?
Are you like, I have to lift more.
Okay, I'm lifting this weightand tomorrow I'm gonna lift more.
Or.
Or like, you know, oh, this is.
I should be stronger than Iam, you know, Is it that.
Is it like, oh, is that personwatching me?
(23:59):
Like, why are they looking at me?
You know?
Or is it just being directlyin the experience?
Right.
Without judgment, you know, soyou can be observing the performance
and saying, oh, I let my elbowgo out and I need to bring it in,
because that's proper form andthat's just redirecting your effort.
I don't think that would bebreaking kind of from mindfulness
(24:21):
practice.
It's just readjusting to your anchor.
We obviously talk lots about awakening.
Is there a connection withmindfulness and awakening process?
Yes, absolutely.
Absolutely.
In general, there is connection.
Not at all.
Absolutely.
If you meditate, you're goingto awaken.
(24:42):
Right.
Which is something we'veaddressed before.
Mindfulness meditation is avery good path to awakening for many
people.
And just as equally, it's nota path to awakening for many people.
And I think a lot of it has todo with, like I said before, every
component of what makes youyou affects your experience and also
(25:05):
affects, like, well, what'sawakening for you?
So, yeah, it might bemindfulness meditation.
Might not be one of many pointers.
I'm sure that's something I'dlike to explore sometime.
Let's just put it that way.
Can't get into it now.
So what advice would you giveor what would you recommend to a
beginner who's interested intrying to explore mindfulness?
(25:26):
Oh, my goodness.
I'm so happy for you.
Really.
Looking back at my experiencetrying to learn about meditation,
it was like, oh, my God, therewas nothing.
There's so much now that's available.
There's so many really goodresources and teachers.
I can name three apps that arevery good for mindfulness meditation.
Each of them has, like, reallygood teaching on it.
(25:48):
It's all free.
You can pay premiums.
As for, you know, there'swonderful resources online.
So the question is, of course,there's so much available.
How do you choose?
Right, right.
And I think you really have togo with your experience.
Like, when you start to do it,is it helping you?
Is it making you feel better?
Like, give it a week or two.
You know, don't just try itfor 10 minutes and say, oh, this
(26:08):
sucks.
Because honestly, the firsttime you try to sit for 10 minutes,
it might not be enjoyable.
Just like going to the gym,you might not like it at first or
playing an instrument.
So stick with it a little bit,but don't be afraid to go and try
something new.
I mean, we've talked aboutthis a lot.
Like, always trying to findthe practice that's right for you
and trust yourself.
Yeah.
And as far as those who may beunderway on a journey of mindfulness,
(26:32):
what's out there available toexplore beyond sort of the beginner
levels?
I guess I wouldn't have anyspecific or different instruction.
I mean, there's.
Again, at any level, there'sso much resource available out there.
Just explore and yeah, trust.
Trust yourself.
I think the key is don't letanyone make you feel bad.
(26:54):
Like, don't let a practicemake you feel bad and don't let a
teacher make you feel bad.
Of course, every.
Well, not everyone, but there.
There are stories ofadversarial teachers, and there are
traditions of that.
And there are also welldocumented instances of really problematic
teaching and people who areclaiming to be that way.
So I think the best guidelineis like, keep yourself safe physically
(27:16):
and emotionally.
Just don't let it makeanything worse.
That's fair.
And.
And I would say, especiallywith posture.
We didn't talk about posture traditionally.
You know, there are a lot oftraditional postures, but they're
for people who didn't grow upsitting in chairs.
So I would say, you know, youcan experiment, but again, don't
make it.
Don't let it make you feel bad.
You definitely don't have tosit in a traditional posture or sit
(27:39):
at all, just as there are any.
You can use any anchor.
You can use any posture.
Sitting, standing, lying down,whatever works for you.
Great.
Well, we're closing in on time here.
But what drew you tomindfulness as an instructor?
Serendipity.
It just happened.
I knew someone at work who wasalso a meditator.
We had talked several times.
She was enrolled in a program.
(28:01):
I attended her practicum justto be another warm body and give
her feedback.
And she said, you reallyshould sign up for this course.
I'm like, I don't want to.
But I.
At the time, I really didn'thave a reason.
Not to.
And I knew that.
I knew that learning to teacha thing really deepens your connection
to the thing.
So that was a motivation.
Yeah, I would say that was it.
(28:21):
And even after graduating, Ireally didn't have an intention of
teaching, which is onlygrowing recently.
Yeah.
What do you hope to bring theindustry in a unique way through
your teaching?
I don't know.
I mean, my.
Well, as you know, my focus ison awakening.
I mean, I have a deep love ofmindfulness and the connection between
that and awakening.
(28:41):
Right.
Yeah.
I'd give a plug for all yourstuff and how to get in touch with
you and all that.
I don't know.
Do we have anything to give people?
I think not yet.
I am not set up yet to launchmy practice.
Keep an eye out for our Introto Mindfulness Meditation course.
Yes, in in progress.
So thanks again for joining us.
Hopefully you gained someinsight and inspiration to either
(29:04):
begin, embark on or continueyour mindfulness practice.
I hope you have lovely day andwe'll talk to you next time.
Thanks everyone.
Bye bye.
Thank you for listening to theTracking Wisdom Podcast.
Join us next time as wecontinue the discussion.
Don't forget to follow us onFacebook, Instagram and YouTube and
visit www.eth-studio.com formore information and content.
Foreign.
You're listening to theTracking Wisdom Podcast, exploring
the universal truths that wesee woven through culture, consciousness,
and the human experience.
Good morning, everybody, andwelcome back to another episode of
(00:21):
the Tracking Wisdom Podcast.
I'm Ryan.
I'm Peter.
And today we are talking aboutmindfulness, the art of mindful living
and cultivating presence ineveryday life.
And we are joined today by ourcertified mindfulness instructor,
Peter.
So today I wanted to talkabout mindfulness in general and
(00:41):
query Peter about hisexperience with mindfulness and mindfulness
practice.
So, Peter, just to getstarted, in your own words, for those
who may not know, how wouldyou describe mindfulness or what
is mindfulness?
Mindfulness is focusedattention on the current experience
in the present moment.
(01:01):
How did you get into mindfulness?
Well, it goes back Star Wars.
Star Wars.
Interesting.
Yeah.
I saw an article.
This is back when I was in my 20s.
I think I was still adisaffected youth.
Maybe I was not happy.
I was not happy.
And I saw an ARC article onthe Jedi, and it is describing the
(01:26):
Jedi as based in Zen in some way.
And, you know, how they werecalm and purposeful and directed
and like Zen, you know, likeconcepts of Zen Buddhism.
I was like, oh, what's that?
So that's literally my gateway.
I was like, oh, let me lookinto Zen.
That sounds interesting.
And so I started reading aboutZen meditation, not so much about
(01:48):
Zen Buddhism.
I remember Three Pillars ofZen by Philip Keplo was like, there
were not that many books.
That was.
That was a big one.
Is mindfulness part of Zen?
Mindfulness is very central toZen Buddhism.
So is mindfulness meditationlike the definition of Buddhist meditation,
(02:09):
or is it just one type of meditation?
It's just one type.
Okay, interesting.
What do you think is the mostcommon misconception?
Empty your mind.
Okay, explain that.
That's easy.
Because what one might callemptying of the mind is a byproduct
of meditation.
It's not the goal of meditation.
(02:30):
One can make it one's goal.
You can choose to meditate forwhatever purpose you choose.
But, I mean, it's not.
It is not the purpose of meditation.
It's most certainly not how todo it.
It's a byproduct.
Mindfulness meditation reallystarts with observation.
And so to start withmanipulate your mind by emptying
(02:51):
it is contrary to my lineage,which is Jack Kornfield and Tara
Brock.
Jack is from the Thai forest lineage.
What's the difference?
It's just a particular cultureor region of Buddhist culture.
I kind of don't want to getinto a technical discussion of different
kinds of Buddhism, because Ithink mindfulness meditation is more
(03:14):
interesting.
It's just he's a clinicalpsychologist who was a monk in the
Thai forest under his teacherAjahn Chah.
I see.
So, okay, old school traditional.
Tara doesn't have quite thesame background.
She's also a clinicalpsychologist, but came from a yoga
background before she got into mindfulness.
(03:35):
And they are two really majorWestern meditation teachers.
How would you recommenddiscussing or teaching around the
emptying of the mind?
Right.
So I think it's a very commonform of suffering, which is why people
think it's the goal ofmeditation, why it's a desirable
end product.
(03:55):
Right.
I think, especially in thewest, we're aware of how much we
think and how much ourthoughts cause suffering and how
much we have intrusive thoughts.
So I guess the misconceptionis that you can boss that around
and just empty your mind, youknow, stop your intrusive thoughts.
If it was that easy, peoplewould have thought.
(04:16):
Exactly.
It's a very strange instruction.
I think it happens becauseit's in the cultural vernacular and
not because it's a meaningful instruction.
I think that when a teachersays that they mean a thing, but
they don't mean literally.
Now empty your mind.
They mean, I think, stopattaching so much importance to your
(04:37):
thoughts.
Right.
Which may have the feeling ofempty your mind, but it's not emptying
your mind.
So I mean, the essence ofmeditation is kind attention to the
present experience in thepresent moment.
I guess there's an idea ofquiet, because I was going to say
quiet yourself.
It's a tradition to sit stillwhen you learn mindfulness meditation.
(04:58):
But even that sitting still isnot essential to mindfulness meditation
because there's a variety offorms of movement meditation.
One of the most traditional iswalking meditation.
You're just not still, butyou're still paying attention to
your experience.
Okay, so let's go back to themore common sitting still.
Right.
(05:18):
So you sit and you stop moving around.
It's basically to help youfocus your attention so that there
are fewer distractions.
So you stop moving around.
You try to sit still and payattention to what your experience
is.
I guess I should start withjust the concept of the anchor, which
is it's a tool which you makesomething the object of your meditation.
(05:39):
The most common one is thebreath as an anchor.
And the traditionalinstruction going back to the time
of Buddha is following thebreath at the tip of the nose.
And you can see pieces oftraditional Buddhist art which actually
show streams of air comingfrom his nose.
But again, you know, that'sjust a single instruction.
(06:00):
That piece of art is just asingle piece of art representing
a single snapshot of ameditation experience.
It's not essential havingsomething to which to direct your
attention.
Having that anchor for themind is what's essential.
So it could be the breath, itcould be your finger, your palm,
the sound of your own breathing.
It could be the sound,whatever ambient sound is around
(06:22):
you.
It could be a candle flame.
Basically, any of your senses,including your mental experience,
can be anchors.
You just direct your.
Your attention to that anchorand keep it there as long as you
can and see what happens.
And that's really the key issee what happens.
And what happens is not thatyour mind becomes quiet.
(06:42):
What happens is that your mindstarts to wander.
It might wander instantlywithin the space of a breath, or
it might wander after a little bit.
You know, if you.
If your inherent quality ofstillness or concentration is a little
bit higher than average, youmight maintain your attention on
whatever anchor you choose fora little bit longer.
(07:03):
But inevitably, the universalexperience is that your mind wanders.
And then the next thing thathappens is eventually you notice
your mind wandering, becausevery often you do not notice that
your mind's wandering.
You say, I'm going to sit downand meditate.
You start with your anchor,and then your mind wanders, and you
(07:24):
have a thought, and you startfollowing that thought into a train
of thoughts.
And you're planning dinner,and you're planning dinner, and you
remember something else thatyou ate, and then you remember the
person you ate it with, andyou remember how you got there, and
you remember the cab ridewasn't very nice, and you're just
off in this total fantasywhich has nothing to do with the
present moment.
(07:44):
And then you go, oh, my God,I'm supposed to be meditating.
And that's the essence ofmeditation, mindfulness meditation.
Right there is that, oh, myGod, I'm supposed to be meditating,
where you recognize that yourmind has wandered, and then you bring
it back to the anchor.
But the moment of recognition,the moment of recognizing what the
mind is doing and how the mindis working or behaving or performing.
(08:07):
That's the mindfulness.
And so the purpose of sittingstill and having the anchor is to
kind of set up controlconditions, like a little experiment,
so that you can more easilyobserve that moment of, oh, oh, my
gosh, I thought I was incontrol of my mind, and I didn't
even realize it was wanderingall over the place.
So mindfulness meditation.
Yeah, Kind of setting up alittle controlled experiment.
(08:30):
So you're eliminating thesedistracting variables so you can
more clearly see the thingthat you're trying to study, which
is your mind.
And as you progress inpractice, just as inevitably as we
first sit down, inevitablyyour mind wanders.
And eventually you say, oh,I've been, I've recognized the money.
Now just to say you couldspend, you could set a 30 minute
(08:52):
timer and not remember untilyour timer goes off that you were
supposed to be managing.
It's a very common experience.
You could set a five minutetimer and have the same experience.
And equally as well, you haveyour mind wander and after a few
seconds say, oh gee, you justhappen to recognize, oh, my mind
was wandering.
So all of those variables, allthose different experiences are legitimate
(09:14):
and common.
But when you have that, oh mygosh, I'm supposed to be meditating,
that's kind of the firstexperience of mindfulness.
It's the first taste andeverything builds from there.
So as I was saying, there's aninevitability to practice that if
you practice longer,eventually the time it takes you
to recognize that your mindwandered gets shorter.
(09:35):
And so when you begin, yourconcentration is very good and you're
able to maintain yourattention for a while before your
mind wanders off.
Maybe you, you know, prettysoon after it monitors off, you recognize
it and you bring it back,it'll still get shorter, like it'll
still get better.
It's just practice.
Which is why people joke.
It's why you call it, it'scalled meditation practice.
It's really not.
But of the consequence ofengaging in a practice is that things
(09:58):
change.
Right.
And so how long and what theactual curve is and what your actual
path of experience iscompletely depends on individuality
of the person, like theirbackground, their conditioning, their
physicality.
I mean, everything that makesyou, you as an individual is going
to feed into this, buteventually it gets shorter and tighter.
(10:19):
And as you notice how thelength of attention or the quickness
of recognizing that yourattention wandered as things change,
I think you'll perceive thatas the mind quieting.
Interesting.
Yeah.
Is there a difference betweenattention and observation?
And I guess what I'm pointingto is we say an anchor for attention,
(10:41):
but we're also trying toobserve the present moment.
Are those two different things?
So the reason that I use theword observation is because it's
kind of a passive aspect ofattention, which, by which I mean
you're not manipulating.
Right.
If you're an observer, you'renot manipulating the thing you're
(11:01):
observing.
You're just leaving alone.
And that's what's meant bykind attention is.
Another immediate tendency isto judge what just happened.
My mind wandered.
I'm no good at this.
I can't meditate or, you know,darn, those kids are making noise.
They're preventing me from.
You know, it might not beinternally directed.
It might be directed extra.
(11:22):
You kids be quiet.
I'm trying to meditate.
You know, there's a resistanceto the thing that happens, which
is your mind wandered.
And so the intention that'sneeded as you start is kindness and
compassion, uneasiness withwhatever happens, an acceptance of,
I'm going to have theintention to keep my attention focused
on this anchor.
(11:42):
And I have the intention to begentle and kind of with whatever
happens and to be accepting of it.
It may be that you don't meeteither of those intentions.
You may not maintain yourfocus, and you may not be kind about
what happens after, but that'sthe intention.
And then you observe how yourexperience matches your intention.
(12:03):
And then you go back and youdo it again, and you just rinse and
repeat.
And I should say that thisrinse and repeat can be within the
space of seconds.
It's not, you know, the nexttime you sit down, it's like, you
sat for 30 seconds, your mindwandered, you noticed it.
You beat yourself upmomentarily, and you're like, oh,
okay, I'm not doing a verygood job of being kind to myself.
All right, be better at being kind.
(12:23):
I mean, it's just all thisprocess happens, and you just keep
on watching.
It's like, so how mean are youbeing to yourself?
What's going on there?
And eventually, hopefully, youknow, if you don't get caught in
the habitual pattern of justbeating yourself up or just being
annoyed at the obstacles, thedistractions, but you actually start
(12:45):
to focus on the intention ofkindness and acceptance.
Everything starts to softenand loosen up, and the periods of
tension lengthen and theexperience of kindness increases.
It becomes easier.
I think that was the firstthing that I learned over a long
time of meditating at thebeginning was to stop criticizing
(13:08):
myself, to stop criticizing mypractice, so that while I was on
the cushion, I was not criticizing.
And that was a hugeimprovement for me.
And I don't know exactly.
I think it took quite a longtime for that to happen.
By the time I noticed it, itwas already very familiar, and I
didn't really remembercriticizing myself.
But I know that for years Iwas struggling to be A better meditator.
(13:34):
And it's not all criticism, too.
It's like, I'm doing a great job.
That's another thought.
That's another reaction we canhave to our experience of meditating.
And that's just the same asbeating yourself up.
Yeah, it can be.
I mean, it's another passing judgment.
It's potential.
It's a judgment.
Exactly.
Thank you, Ryan.
Is there a difference betweenmindfulness and mindfulness meditation?
(13:58):
Is there a conceptual elementof mindfulness?
I don't know that there's anexplicit difference.
I think there's an easyconceptual distinction to be made,
which is that when you have achosen anchor, then you're meditating.
And so you may be active oryou may be still, but you have a
(14:19):
chosen anchor of attention,and you're observing what is happening
to your attention, to your mind.
And that, I would say, ismindfulness meditation.
Mindfulness, I think, is aquality that.
That grows out of the practicewhere you just start to notice things.
And an experience that I can report.
Well, in fact, I think peoplehave heard me.
(14:39):
I forgot we're on a podcast here.
Getting into my ownconversational space here.
But certainly, you know,you've heard me report out my experience.
And it's not because I'msitting here in the podcast meditating.
It's because become mindful.
Or I'm having.
I'm reporting an instance of mindfulness.
So I would say mindfulness isa kind of skill that develops out
(15:01):
of the practice of mindfulness meditation.
Mindfulness meditation is thespecific practice which I think would
be fair to say is intended togenerate mindfulness.
And then, because theconsequence of having mindfulness
is you suffer less, you findyou notice that your mind is doing
(15:21):
unhelpful things, and thenkind of stop attaching to those unhelpful
patterns in a way that isincreasing your suffering and that
therefore decreases your suffering.
What would you say to somebodythat says, I can't meditate?
How do you respond to that?
Kind of.
Yes.
So I would say that's thesecond misconception.
(15:41):
You know, big secret that Isay, which is, you can't fail at
meditation.
You can only have different experiences.
You can have experiences thatyou don't like, but that's not failing.
As long as you notice that youhad that experience, then you're.
You're doing it, which is whyit can be helpful to have a teacher.
So I meditated for, like, 40years without having a teacher.
(16:02):
Yeah.
So even so, at one point, Iwas at a zendo in New York.
When I was first starting, Iwas living in New York City.
There was a zendo there, a Zentemple which had a free meditation
session every week, and I wentto that.
And there was a teacher there.
There was an abbot there atthe zendo, but he wasn't my teacher,
so I never had the opportunityto discuss my practice with him.
(16:26):
So that doesn't count.
Although, you know, in a way,he's definitely part of my lineage
because he affected myexperience of meditation.
Jack and Tara I listened to oncassette tapes for years, and then,
you know, and then on podcast, and.
And so I've been in contactwith their teachings for many years,
(16:46):
but they weren't my teachersbecause there was no.
In the sense that there was no interaction.
Right.
So it's helpful to have aguide or a coach, a teacher, in that
sense, an interactiveexperience, someone with whom you
can discuss your experiencereally can accelerate your understanding
of what's going on.
I don't want to say get ateacher, because that's not necessarily
(17:07):
the solution, but you.
You need to have thatinstruction, that additional instruction
of you can't fail at meditation.
You can only have experiencethat you don't like, and that in
itself is part of the meditation.
I mean, mindfulness meditationis studying your experience.
And because you're studyingyour experience, you can't fail.
(17:29):
You can only choose not to do it.
How long or how often is bestfor creating a practice?
Oh, Ryan.
Yeah, so there's.
There's no right answer.
Okay.
I would recommend trying to doit daily.
Like setting the intention todo it daily, but then again, doing
that in itself becomes part ofthe meditation experience.
(17:50):
It's like, oh, you.
You set the intention to do itseven days this week.
How many days did you do it?
2.
How do you feel about that?
Right?
I mean, it's.
Well, okay, so now what are you.
What are you doing about thefact that you only did it for two
days?
You know, is your.
Are you allowing your mind todo things with that information or
you just saying, okay, nextweek, same goal, seven days.
(18:11):
See what happens any number of days.
If you do one one day a week,there's nothing wrong with that.
If you want to be ambitiousand set, I'm going to sit every single
day for the next week?
There's nothing wrong withthat either.
There's nothing wrong withfailing at either one.
As long as you have kindattention for whatever happens, whether
you fail or you don't fail.
(18:31):
And also helpful hint, if yousucceed in seven out of seven days,
there's Nothing wrong withbeing excited about, oh my God.
Yeah, it's great.
Like, it's fine to be reallyhappy about it.
It's less helpful to be reallyunhappy about failing.
But again, both of thosethings are just responses, and they're
just part of your experience.
Everything's just part of your experience.
I would offer start with fiveminutes each time.
(18:54):
There's no reason not to do 10or 20 or 30.
If your qualities ofdiscipline and focus are already
high because you do somethingelse that requires you to focus for
periods of time, why not do itthat way?
You might be a musician who'saccustomed to practicing for long
periods.
So do this for that, you know,doesn't mean you can succeed any
(19:15):
better.
If you know you have a reallypoor attention span, don't give yourself
an hour.
Yeah, you know, if you knowthat your body doesn't like to sit
still for long periods oftime, don't start with half an hour.
Start with something that'sreasonably comfortable.
If you only can do one minutea day for seven days, that success,
even if your goal is 30minutes, but did one minute, you
(19:36):
still remembered and made theeffort to meditate for a period of
time, even if it was only one minute.
So I'm super busy and I hateto sit still.
What are my options?
There's a story.
There's a story.
Someone asked the teacher, howmuch should I meditate?
Meditate for half an hour?
Well, I don't have enough timeto meditate, so meditate for an hour.
(19:57):
I don't know the point of that.
It just came to mind becauseit's funny, but you're busy and you
don't like to sit still.
So find an activity and ananchor that you can use while you're
being busy in that city still.
So a classic one is dishwashing.
Just paying attention to eachdish that you pick up and to each
(20:19):
action that you take as youare washing the dishes.
So this is a slightly morecomplex anchor, but probably suits
you if you have a busy mind tendency.
Right.
You're just paying attentionto everything in your experience.
I would start with the handsand the eyes, the temperature of
the water, the sensation ofthe suds, the appearance of the food
(20:42):
on the dishes, the food comingoff the dishes.
Just immersing yourself inthat experience is mindfulness meditation.
So you really can do it withany activity.
Trying to think what thelimitation is.
I think, you know, the reasonyou wouldn't do that is because the.
The reason the traditionalinstruction isn't that way is because
(21:03):
there's more tendency to getdistracted when you're doing something
like washing the dishes.
Like I need to wash thedishes, I need to get to the next
thing.
Those are things that wouldcome up in your practice of like
you're rushing or, you know,whatever, but those are just.
That's just more kind ofmaterial fodder, if you will, for
the process.
Do you like to exercise?
(21:24):
Do you like to run?
I find that I bring mymeditation to exercise.
Exercise.
I'm just very mindful of themotion that I'm doing.
That's part of my personalityis I'm very technique oriented.
And so that helps me though aslike, oh, this is the anchor of my
meditation.
I mean, I'm not intentionallysaying this is the anchor of my meditation,
but it ends up being that way.
Like I know that to optimizeand this is my external mental process,
(21:48):
kind of external to the meditations.
I know when I go to start aworkout, I'm doing specific exercises.
I want to use good for form tooptimize the benefit of my.
It's not why I'm thinkingabout while I'm doing it, but as
a consequence of thatorientation, when I go to work out,
I'm moving a weight.
All of my attention is on howam I moving that weight and what
(22:09):
is the experience of my bodywhen I'm moving that weight.
Is it uncomfortable?
Am I over challenging myself?
How tired am I?
I mean, I'm very much payingattention to the entire experience
of performing that exercise.
Not want to wear a headset orlisten to something intentionally
while I'm exercising.
Exception is if I'm doing anaerobic exercise, I'm usually listening
(22:31):
to something because I have alot of stuff to listen to.
But when I'm doing strengthtraining, I'm essentially meditating.
And I would say when I used torun that cerrobic exercise, I would
do also without audio.
And I'm just focused on thatexperience of running and paying
attention to what's going on.
So those can definitely bemade into mindfulness meditation
(22:51):
practice for the right match.
You know, if that matches you,then there's no reason that can't
be a very effectivemindfulness meditation.
I don't think that's most people.
And that's why meditation isgenerally taught sitting.
Because again, speaking to thebell curve, as I have in the past,
right.
For most people, most of thetime, that's the most convenient
(23:13):
and conducive thing.
And then there are all exceptions.
So what you said about theexercise and I guess I Had images.
I mean, not necessarily flowstate, like you're in the peak performance
of your craft, but being inthe moment, say, sounds like it could
be a common experience formany people that exercise.
And I wonder how many peopleare meditating and not knowing it.
(23:37):
I be absolutely certain thatit happens.
Yeah, absolutely certain.
Without question.
The distinction to make is,what are you doing with those observations?
Right?
Are you like, I have to lift more.
Okay, I'm lifting this weightand tomorrow I'm gonna lift more.
Or.
Or like, you know, oh, this is.
I should be stronger than Iam, you know, Is it that.
Is it like, oh, is that personwatching me?
(23:59):
Like, why are they looking at me?
You know?
Or is it just being directlyin the experience?
Right.
Without judgment, you know, soyou can be observing the performance
and saying, oh, I let my elbowgo out and I need to bring it in,
because that's proper form andthat's just redirecting your effort.
I don't think that would bebreaking kind of from mindfulness
(24:21):
practice.
It's just readjusting to your anchor.
We obviously talk lots about awakening.
Is there a connection withmindfulness and awakening process?
Yes, absolutely.
Absolutely.
In general, there is connection.
Not at all.
Absolutely.
If you meditate, you're goingto awaken.
(24:42):
Right.
Which is something we'veaddressed before.
Mindfulness meditation is avery good path to awakening for many
people.
And just as equally, it's nota path to awakening for many people.
And I think a lot of it has todo with, like I said before, every
component of what makes youyou affects your experience and also
(25:05):
affects, like, well, what'sawakening for you?
So, yeah, it might bemindfulness meditation.
Might not be one of many pointers.
I'm sure that's something I'dlike to explore sometime.
Let's just put it that way.
Can't get into it now.
So what advice would you giveor what would you recommend to a
beginner who's interested intrying to explore mindfulness?
(25:26):
Oh, my goodness.
I'm so happy for you.
Really.
Looking back at my experiencetrying to learn about meditation,
it was like, oh, my God, therewas nothing.
There's so much now that's available.
There's so many really goodresources and teachers.
I can name three apps that arevery good for mindfulness meditation.
Each of them has, like, reallygood teaching on it.
(25:48):
It's all free.
You can pay premiums.
As for, you know, there'swonderful resources online.
So the question is, of course,there's so much available.
How do you choose?
Right, right.
And I think you really have togo with your experience.
Like, when you start to do it,is it helping you?
Is it making you feel better?
Like, give it a week or two.
You know, don't just try itfor 10 minutes and say, oh, this
(26:08):
sucks.
Because honestly, the firsttime you try to sit for 10 minutes,
it might not be enjoyable.
Just like going to the gym,you might not like it at first or
playing an instrument.
So stick with it a little bit,but don't be afraid to go and try
something new.
I mean, we've talked aboutthis a lot.
Like, always trying to findthe practice that's right for you
and trust yourself.
Yeah.
And as far as those who may beunderway on a journey of mindfulness,
(26:32):
what's out there available toexplore beyond sort of the beginner
levels?
I guess I wouldn't have anyspecific or different instruction.
I mean, there's.
Again, at any level, there'sso much resource available out there.
Just explore and yeah, trust.
Trust yourself.
I think the key is don't letanyone make you feel bad.
(26:54):
Like, don't let a practicemake you feel bad and don't let a
teacher make you feel bad.
Of course, every.
Well, not everyone, but there.
There are stories ofadversarial teachers, and there are
traditions of that.
And there are also welldocumented instances of really problematic
teaching and people who areclaiming to be that way.
So I think the best guidelineis like, keep yourself safe physically
(27:16):
and emotionally.
Just don't let it makeanything worse.
That's fair.
And.
And I would say, especiallywith posture.
We didn't talk about posture traditionally.
You know, there are a lot oftraditional postures, but they're
for people who didn't grow upsitting in chairs.
So I would say, you know, youcan experiment, but again, don't
make it.
Don't let it make you feel bad.
You definitely don't have tosit in a traditional posture or sit
(27:39):
at all, just as there are any.
You can use any anchor.
You can use any posture.
Sitting, standing, lying down,whatever works for you.
Great.
Well, we're closing in on time here.
But what drew you tomindfulness as an instructor?
Serendipity.
It just happened.
I knew someone at work who wasalso a meditator.
We had talked several times.
She was enrolled in a program.
(28:01):
I attended her practicum justto be another warm body and give
her feedback.
And she said, you reallyshould sign up for this course.
I'm like, I don't want to.
But I.
At the time, I really didn'thave a reason.
Not to.
And I knew that.
I knew that learning to teacha thing really deepens your connection
to the thing.
So that was a motivation.
Yeah, I would say that was it.
(28:21):
And even after graduating, Ireally didn't have an intention of
teaching, which is onlygrowing recently.
Yeah.
What do you hope to bring theindustry in a unique way through
your teaching?
I don't know.
I mean, my.
Well, as you know, my focus ison awakening.
I mean, I have a deep love ofmindfulness and the connection between
that and awakening.
(28:41):
Right.
Yeah.
I'd give a plug for all yourstuff and how to get in touch with
you and all that.
I don't know.
Do we have anything to give people?
I think not yet.
I am not set up yet to launchmy practice.
Keep an eye out for our Introto Mindfulness Meditation course.
Yes, in in progress.
So thanks again for joining us.
Hopefully you gained someinsight and inspiration to either
(29:04):
begin, embark on or continueyour mindfulness practice.
I hope you have lovely day andwe'll talk to you next time.
Thanks everyone.
Bye bye.
Thank you for listening to theTracking Wisdom Podcast.
Join us next time as wecontinue the discussion.
Don't forget to follow us onFacebook, Instagram and YouTube and
visit www.eth-studio.com formore information and content.
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