November 13, 2024 • 29 mins
In this Trading Tomorrow – Navigating Trends in Capital Markets episode, Jud Mackrill, Co-Founder and Managing Partner at Milemarker, reveals how data integration and cloud solutions are revolutionizing the wealth management landscape. Judd discusses the transition from traditional tools like Excel to AI-driven platforms, enhancing profitability, decision-making, and client service for financial advisors. Learn about Milemarker's innovative approach to real-time data analytics and how their solutions tackle merger integration challenges, streamline processes, and improve client relationships. From cloud strategy to AI, this conversation sheds light on the future of wealth management.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome to Trading Tomorrow Navigating Trends in
Capital Markets the podcastwhere we deep dive into
technologies reshaping the worldof capital markets.
I'm your host, jim Jockle, aveteran of the finance industry
with a passion for thecomplexities of financial
technologies and market trends.
In each episode, we'll explorethe cutting-edge trends, tools
and strategies driving today'sfinancial landscapes and paving
(00:29):
the way for the future.
With the finance industry at apivotal point, influenced by
groundbreaking innovations, it'smore crucial than ever to
understand how thesetechnological advancements
interact with market dynamics.
Interact with market dynamics.
(00:49):
Today, we're joined by JuddMackerel, co-founder and
managing partner of MileMarker,a groundbreaking fintech firm
that empowers wealth managementcompanies by unlocking the full
potential of their technologystacks.
Firm intelligence isrevolutionizing how financial
advisors integrate systems,automate processes and harness
data to better deliver serviceto their clients.
(01:10):
Judd's a thought leader in thespace, and today we'll dive into
how data is transforming thefuture of wealth management.
So, judd, to start, can youshare the inspiration behind
MileMarker and how it addressesthe challenges wealth management
firms face with theirtechnology stacks?
Speaker 2 (01:25):
That's a great question.
I mean, for the reason westarted mile marker.
Mile marker is my career in themaking and, in a funny sort of
way, because I grew up serving alot of large wealth management
firms, independent brokerdealers, rias, trust companies,
things like you know, entitieslike that that are working to
(01:45):
make progress with theirbusiness using key pieces of
technology, and the problem Ikept seeing was the change in
the industry was outpacing whatthey could actually do with the
partners they had.
They had to figure out a wayforward to make better progress.
And and that really inspired meto start mile marker um,
(02:07):
because we fundamentally want tobe a partner for progress for
the firms that we serve.
There's no reason to be stuck.
Uh, there's, and there's somany opportunities to better
compound the innovation, thedata, the insights that your
business has and then ultimatelyget to a place where your key
systems are actually integratingwith you, versus you having to
(02:29):
try to finagle your way intomaking it work for you and so
like really trying to change theposture and create more
opportunity for the people weserve.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
You know what are some of the biggest trends that
you're seeing in the space andhow are they reshaping how firms
operate?
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Yeah, I mean, I think fundamentally, people are
starting to invest in datawarehouses and data lakes and
all kinds of things around that.
We see a lot of people doingthat but maybe aren't making the
progress they'd hoped.
Or, to the leadership of thecompany, it's more imaginary
than actual.
Those are key things.
Being able to have data to beable to run LLMs and AI on top
(03:10):
of it obviously a very importantpart of the future of our
industry.
A lot of places simply don'thave the data to do that or the
ability to add those layers on,so it's a really rich
opportunity for our wholeindustry to get better, to
mature, to really start to makeprogress in those categories and
(03:31):
to have a key partner thatmakes that happen.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
And so what do you see?
Some of the biggest challenges,though, that these firms are
facing when trying to leveragetheir data for better decision
making.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Well, I think often it's getting out of the
spreadsheets and getting intothe cloud and then getting into
a place where your organizationcan start to actually have a
proactive posture.
And I think a lot of times mostbusinesses have like a 90-day
cadence where we're going tolook at our numbers every 90
days, we're going to makedecisions, we're going to move
(04:02):
forward and they're going torevisit that in 89 days or
whatever, and you know that's athat's a broken model.
Change is happening toofrequently.
Decisions need to be happeningmore often.
There are a lot of things thatare not actually looked at in
the whole process and we see amassive opportunity to modernize
and automate and forecast howbusinesses can be understanding
(04:26):
their business themselves and bemaking better decisions and
fundamentally transforming theirvalue to their clients by
better adoption, better empathy,better service.
That's all driven by the data.
That's the stories the data istelling them.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
And with the launch of MileMarker's firm
intelligence platform.
What are some of the keyfeatures that set it apart from
other fintech solutions in thewealth management space?
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Yeah, it's uniquely built around some of the key
components.
We see that advisory firms andtrust companies and banks and
various financial institutionsneed to be able to understand
how they're doing business and alot of times you see basis
points as kind of the currencyof how everybody gets paid in
one way or another.
(05:13):
We're able to break down howthat gross number is ultimately
netting out and understandinghow production and all these
things happen inside of that.
So you can be making reallygood decisions with the data,
understanding that my business Imay be making more money than
I've ever made, but I'mcertainly not saving that.
(05:37):
Um, you know, maybe that's moregoing out the door or um, we
have clients fidelity to study.
Last year that came out where itshowed the majority of clients
that that RIAs have aregenerally unprofitable, and
helping them understand like,how do we fix this?
How do we redesign our servicemodels?
How do we start to learn whowe're really good with, who's a
(05:59):
win-win scenario as a client andseeing data unlock that, and so
our analytics and our engineare doing that on the regular
for a lot of firms around thecountry and it's been really fun
to see that behavior change forthe CFOs of these firms to come
in and say this is my favoritenumber.
I want to see, like ourforecasted revenue.
I had that earlier this week.
(06:19):
You know one of the CFOs of anawesome firm.
You know she's like I want togo check our end of quarter
number to understand where we'reat and be able to make
decisions and be able toforecast and should we hire,
Should we not?
You know, all these things arereally driven off these real
numbers and I would say,fundamentally, a lot of firms
don't actually know the realnumbers, Like their systems have
(06:40):
a lot of demo data, faux data,things like that, that are
actually abstracting them fromthe truth, and we really help
them get clear to the truth andhave a very fine definition of
what their numbers actually areso they can make real decisions
and not be, you know, trying tosort it out in their own minds.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
Yeah, that fidelity study, that that's.
That's crazy.
I I'm, I'm hoping the endclients don't read it.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
Well, fidelity might have them go back to this being
a retail client with them, andeverybody would win, probably.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
Yeah, there's motivations in every piece of
research, I'm sure, but I'veread things in the past where
you've spoken about that.
Mile marker acts, as you knowquote unquote connective tissue
for firms to harness their datainsights, you know.
Can you explain what that means, how it helps advisors and
better manage their business?
Speaker 2 (07:31):
A big part of our brand promise is that all of our
customers own their databecause of mile marker.
We help you actually bring yourdata down into an environment
that you own and control andthen, with that, we help you
connect that data to your truth,to understanding what it really
is.
When you look at your planningbusiness, your insurance
business, your wealth managementbusiness, how do you really
(07:53):
look at that at an executivelevel?
Because you already have thisperspective.
You probably just have to willit into existence For us.
We actually bring that togetherproactively for you so you can
really truly look at who you areand then define where you want
to go and understand all of thatin one single user interface,
(08:15):
all branded to your firm on yourdomain, and also be able to
drive that down to youraffiliate offices or your
advisors in the field undertheir identity and cascade the
insight to them, which is that'swhere transformation happens.
We see a lot of advisors whojoin companies, an organization,
whether as a member of acorporate, ria or a branch you
(08:38):
know IAR, whatever thatrelationship is.
They're looking for, obviously,the shared services, compliance
, service technology, et cetera,but they're also really looking
for somebody that's been therebefore them and can guide them
to where they want to go, andwhat they're finding is those
institutions actually can'treally deliver, that they're not
(08:59):
really in a proactive posture,and so we fundamentally change
that.
We give you back that abilityto be proactive, make decisions,
understand your truth and thendrive that insight to all key
stakeholders so they canfundamentally improve what they
do.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
The way you categorize digital
transformation was more aboutthe end user and the business
user adding more value to theirclient, where I think the world
thinks about digitaltransformation as process
automation and things of thatnature.
I think that's a reallyfascinating way to look at it.
Any additional thoughts aroundthat?
Speaker 2 (09:33):
That's a good observation.
Yeah, I mean, transformationshould be truly transformational
.
It shouldn't just be a bunch ofbusiness people check a box on
a checklist and say, yeah, wehave our data store and we're
connecting it every day.
We're transformed.
No, you're not, you're just inlike a different context.
It's not until you actuallyapply truth that you can be
transformed.
(09:53):
And that becomes a cycle, too,where you start to improve, you
identify new facts and thingsthat need to improve, and then
you get, you get stronger.
It's the same as, like you know, any person's health and
fitness routine, or even likehabits like this allows you to
actually focus on behaviorchange versus feeling this like
restriction because all of yourstuff is over here, in Never,
(10:17):
neverland.
You know, we're fundamentallychanging that and it's so
exciting.
When we get on the phone withour clients, we're talking to
one of them.
You know a guy that's growingfast.
He's got a bunch of advisors, abunch of clients, and he didn't
have his truth of his firm andnow he does, and now he's able
to make better decisions and nowhe's able to, you know, give
better transparency to his staffaround their numbers, and it's
(10:40):
transforming the posture ofwhich they run and grow their
firm and it's also transformingthe value of their business,
because now they own their dataand they control their analytics
and all that kind of stuff.
So that's a big part of it.
We believe that we pay forourselves and the value we
create for your business, whichis a big part of our inspiration
in doing this as well.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
You know that's the one thing I love about doing
this podcast is getting to chatwith business leaders and
sitting here and change the wayI think about things too.
So thank you for sharing that.
That's awesome.
So you know, data integrationit's, you know.
We can call it a significantchallenge.
We can call it painful,particularly in the context of
(11:20):
mergers and acquisitions.
Right, bringing systemstogether, different data schemas
, you know different ways ofdata input, categorization, you
name it.
You know across the board, it'sjust painful.
So how does MileMarker helpfirms manage that complexities
of integrating different systems, especially post-acquisition?
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Yeah, I think the biggest thing is we help you
have a place to define everyoneinvolved, like everybody that's,
whether they're an office andthey were formerly an RIA.
In another state or time zonethey come into MileMarker.
Now you can kind of corral whothey are and all the things that
have mattered to themhistorically as well as now, the
(12:03):
things that are going to matterto them in the new universe,
and so we can be able to honorthe past and define the future
with the data that we have.
And it's just so important.
I mean, we just got off anengineering call where we're
working on this deeper anddeeper for our clients, wherein
there's a high level ofsubjectivity that exists in all
(12:25):
of these contexts and this isthe trouble is we'd go to
financial advisory firms andthey have four different
financial planning systems.
They'd have a couple ofdifferent risk softwares.
They might even have multipleCRMs.
No one can agree and everyone'strying to play this game of tug
of war to say my system's better, we should all move to my
(12:46):
system.
Well, you all know, just fromhuman behavior, that's never.
If somebody's going to tell youwhat to do, it's never going to
feel as good as if you had theidea, and so what we're able to
do is honor the system pluralitybut then provide truth across
those systems and also help withdata hygiene and integrating
other systems into this to helpmove, address changes from this
(13:09):
system to that system or risknumbers from this system to that
system.
All that stuff needs to beleveled up.
This system, that system, allthat stuff needs to be leveled
up.
But it starts with definitionof who they are and what systems
they use, and then how thosesystems show up in the future
and then how that gives accessto the whole team on the
corporate side to better overseethem, supervise, manage and
(13:31):
hopefully transform how theywork.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
You know.
It's funny that you say thatbecause you know.
So many times, like you know,I've had conversations with you
know, programmers, it in thepast where you know, certain
things become religion, whetherit's you know programming,
languages, systems you know.
So it almost seems like at somepoint, the biggest challenge of
(13:54):
integration is actually thepeople themselves.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
Yeah, I think we're.
I mean, integration hasobviously been a challenge and
it's still a challenge becausethings change.
But the real elephant in theroom is adoption.
As much as integration getsblamed for everything, it's
truly adoption.
And if we can help change thatand drive adoption on all these
different systems and helpingthem actually get to what they
(14:17):
really want with that system,you know that's a big win for
everyone involved and it cutsdown on all this context
switching.
It helps them actually, youknow, be more focused on the
client and be moretransformative to the client as
well, and it's a win-win.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
You know you mentioned cloud technology
before right.
Obviously, there's plenty ofdiscussions around the cloud and
willingness to adopt andwhatnot you know.
So how does cloud technologyfactor into, you know, my own
market firm intelligenceplatform and what advantages
does it provide for wealthmanagement firms in terms of
scalability, accessibility,elasticity, etc.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
Yeah, I think when I got started my career, I'd go
walk into an advisor's officeand I'd walk past these rows of
file cabinets that essentiallyrepresented that business.
It was a folder for everyclient.
You might still have that.
It's not uncommon.
Still Today we see more andmore firms that have invested in
data to some degree.
Maybe it's a server running in acloset, maybe it's a
(15:19):
relationship with Azure or AWSor Google Cloud or something
else.
We have a mindset thatessentially says we're going to
meet you where you are, whateversystem you have today.
That's okay.
Let's help you take that to thenext level without you having
to become a systems programmeror the company IT guy or
(15:41):
whatever it is.
That's not necessarily yourcore focus.
Let's help you cut through thechase and put that data into a
more transformative cloudcontext, but also still live
there if you want it to be.
If you want to stay in Azure,you want to stay in your closet
cool, we can figure that out.
But we're going to take thatdata and we're going to
synthesize it with everythingelse that's already in the cloud
and then give you that straightthrough comprehensive cloud
(16:05):
environment that represents yourbusiness as a living, breathing
thing that's constantly beingupdated and analyzed, and also
adding in your unique logicBecause you have this stuff
right analyze and also adding inyour unique logic because you
have this stuff right.
The most creative application asmuch as we have designers and
developers that I see infinancial services is still
Excel.
There's still advisors runninglike in you know, cfos and
(16:27):
leaders running really complexthings in Excel that ultimately
requires them to run it everytime, even with macros and all
these things.
We help you really transformthat into a much more
application-based experiencethat is truly then adoptable by
the people that need it, andthat logic can run in the cloud.
Even if it's running off, thatdata you still have in that
(16:49):
closet.
So it's a really fun thing forus to be able to help like that
and meet people where they're atand then help them get where
they want to go.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
You know, I always joke about my career.
I always say you know, thefirst 15 years I lived in Word,
the last 15 years I live inExcel.
And there's so muchconversation about the end of
Excel, operationalizing, youknow, utilizing better, stronger
tools like Python via cloudservices.
(17:18):
Do you have a prediction to thedeath of Excel?
Speaker 2 (17:23):
I think it will outlive all of us.
It's like a cockroach in anuclear explosion.
It's going to keep goingbecause at the end of the day,
I'm going to cut to the chaseand I want to get this, I'm
going to have it here.
But it's even like BI tools,like Power BI and things like
that.
There's a lot of cool thingshappening there, but it's in
isolation.
I want this stuff to live and Iactually want it to be driving
(17:45):
automation in my business.
I want AI to be influencing itand be building bots and agents
and things like that thatactually can go from there.
So it has to get more mature,but it's that's still like
foundational level.
That is our whiteboard right.
For many of us, it's like allright, open up spreadsheet,
let's figure this out, let's go.
I'm going to explain tosomebody.
(18:06):
It's going to go someplace.
It might be the source of truthforever, it might just be there
for a moment, but it's.
It's that whiteboard that weall start with and I don't think
it's going anywhere.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
And, just for the record, a Microsoft man just
pulled outside of my house.
So you know, many firms arevery still cautious about
transitioning to cloud-basedsolutions due to concerns about
security, data privacy, cost.
You know things of that nature,you know.
So how does MileMarker addressthese concerns and ensure
(18:37):
security of sensitive financialdata?
Speaker 2 (18:39):
Yeah, we're fundamentally a fiduciary for
our clients, doing what's inyour best interest with how that
works.
I mean that means we use a lotof cloud technology that has
massive adoption, that hasglobal security.
It's often used by governmentsand things like that Like the
CIA, for example, is one of thetop customers historically of
(19:00):
AWS and we're using those sortsof tooling Because,
fundamentally, I don't want tohire a thousand developers.
I want a thousand developersthat work for Amazon or
Snowflake or AWS or Azure.
Excuse me, you know, let's,let's, let's build upon the
growth of the community andlet's, let's take that
(19:24):
transformation and fast forwardit.
And that's the way to do itversus reinventing the wheel.
The wheel is pretty darn goodwhen it comes to computing.
Everybody likes to demonizecompute.
There's a lot of ways to managecompute efficiently for people.
You just have to think about itlike you're spending your own
money and a lot of times peopledon't they're spending somebody
(19:46):
else's money Like, no, I'mspending my literally with our
customers.
I'm spending my own money onyour compute.
So I'm going to do it asshrewdly as possible to get you
the results you need and to giveyou that benefit, and so we sit
on the same side of the tablewith our clients when it comes
to compute, comes to security,when it comes to all those sorts
(20:06):
of things, because, at the endof the day, we're you know,
these are people that we careabout Like they're.
They're big firms sometimes,but they're.
They're people that we spend alot, large portion of our life
with and we're wanting to reallytransform the future together.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
You know it's.
It's an interesting philosophyto say think about, you know,
spending your own dollar.
I recently read an article howfirms now are, you know, moving
back to on-prem right because ofcost, you know, but you have a
different philosophical approachto that in terms of it's
(20:44):
spending my own money, you know,with these tools, would it
possibly suggest that firms arenot thinking about that?
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Yeah, I mean.
So.
I love David Hanna-Meyer Hansen, but I totally disagree with
him on this shift back to local.
If you don't, you're notfamiliar with David Hanna-Meyer
Hansen.
He also goes by DHH and so youknow he's like one of the top
guys in the history of the web.
In my opinion.
Ruby on Rails powers a ton ofapplications in the world and is
(21:13):
really transformativetechnology.
We use something similar hereto power a lot of our
applications.
But his shift is I want to stopspending $50,000 a month on AWS
to power Basecamp and I want tobring that down locally.
I think it's a very viable usecase in that context.
But for us like where every oneof our customers is like a
(21:36):
Basecamp plus another, you know,like we have to have infinite
scale here as we grow and as weserve people.
If we have 100,000 customerslogging into one of these
applications at any given moment, that's great.
I'm sure Basecamp can do 20Xthat.
But when we show up, we need tobe extremely performant.
We need to be extremely secure.
I need to not worry about ahurricane decimating my server
(22:01):
or my server farm or dealingwith redundant systems.
We used to spend a lot of moneyback in my prior company with
co-sentry and like redundantdata farms and you know, running
all of that stuff.
It was a pain in the neck, itwas so bad.
A server would go down, we'd bespending a million dollars on
buying new racks and it was justlike why don't we just build
(22:23):
upon the overall pace ofevolution here in this industry
by partnering with other people?
And I think the other thing youhave to think about is what is
your actual core competency?
Is your core competencymanaging servers or is your core
competency fundamentallyserving investors?
And for us, our core competencyis fundamentally helping
(22:46):
transform businesses to unlocktheir potential, and so for that
we're going to choose best inclass, to give you the best in
class experience on our side ofthe house.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
Well, it brings up a great question in terms of are
you a financial institution orare you an IT company?
So what role, if any, do yousee cloud computing playing in
the future of wealth management?
I mean particularly in theterms of data integration,
automation and client service.
Yeah, I mean, I think it's onlythe beginning of it.
I mean particularly in theterms of the integration,
automation and client service.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
Yeah, I mean I think it's only the beginning of it.
I mean, everybody always lovesto to get to be a baseball
expert and talk about whatinning they're in or whatever
when this comes up.
But like we are early in thegame of of building this and I
think that cloud computing willevolve.
I think compression is evolving.
You're seeing that a lot withwhat's happening with open AI
and things like that.
(23:32):
Like you know, I think it'sfunny because that was kind of
the core part of Silicon Valley.
The HBO show was all aboutcompute or compression Excuse me
and so, but that compressionultimately is a real thing and
how we do that and how thatscales.
I can tell you this If you'regoing to buy off the shelf and
have something sitting somewhere, it is not going to benefit
(23:53):
from that.
You're going to be installingpackets.
You're going to be in this likeconstant improvement of that.
You're going to be focused onmaking that better versus
everything else.
That's getting better for you.
You're getting the new releases.
You're being able to go forwardfrom there and transform your
business and and I just thinkthat's for almost everyone
involved that's probably thebest thing If you're doing
something locally and you wantto have the ability to go fast
(24:16):
and keep the cost down.
Absolutely do that.
It's not a binary thing.
It really is just like what'sthe best thing for us to go and
scale this business and to havecomplete certainty about our
future and our overall cloudscale.
As we go, I think we're goingto see a lot more stuff
happening with data sharing,wherein your analytics from
(24:38):
different systems are going tobe shared in a cloud computing
engine versus via an API, andthat's going to change how much
data you're consuming and howmuch data you're going to need
to actually report out as well.
All that is a new economy thatwe're all starting to get more
familiar with, and the potentialwith it's massive.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
So you know, in the past few years we've seen an
acceleration of kind of digitaltools for client engagement.
You know, how do you seetechnology shaping the future of
the client advisor relationshipwith wealth management?
Speaker 2 (25:10):
I think it's going to be all about adoption, and the
fact is that most retail clientscan do pretty darn well with a
couple of different ETFs andjust managing their budget and
being able to be on the samepage with their partner.
There's a lot of things therethat are fundamental and are
(25:31):
pretty automatable.
We see this from a lot ofdifferent investing tools.
It used to be 12 years ago orso.
We'd have the betterments andwealth fronts and things like
that that people are afraidthey're going to eat their lunch
, and we realized that only 20%of that becomes relevant in a
more holistic wealth managementcontext.
But what it did teach us isthat the value isn't from those
(25:51):
things.
The value is from how do wehelp drive adoption on a state
on tax.
Tax is so multiple taxoptimization and the way you
trade to tax decisions you makeand how you govern your finances
and where you live and whatthat means and all of that.
How you classify your taxes,how you structure your
businesses.
(26:12):
That's where advisors reallyshould be deep diving with their
clients to bring transformation.
Technologies like directindexing and things like that
can be certainly valuable,especially for tax loss
harvesting and things like that.
Those are the things that arebecoming more and more at the
forefront of the advisorexperience because of the
(26:33):
ability to have a lot of thesethings more automated, more in
the cloud, and we see that'sonly going to progress.
The new solutions that arecoming down the road in 10 years
will make all this stuff that'stoday cutting edge look pretty
antiquated, and that's whatprogress looks like.
Edge look pretty, prettyantiquated, and that's that's
what progress looks like.
(26:53):
So we can either sit here andwait for the next thing or we
can be part of today and build ameaningful business that will
transform into the future, andwe would see this to the time in
which we're recording.
I never like to date a podcasttoo much because I think these
are usually pretty good everyevery day.
But just recently the firmCreative Planning, which is
based in Kansas, serves about$250 billion in assets.
(27:15):
I mean, that's a firm that is agreat example here.
They were valued this week at$16 billion and with that,
probably the largest independentRIA valuation to date, and with
that there really is areflection of the deeper value
add that they offer theirindustry and how they provide
(27:35):
tax, how they provide legal, howthey provide all these
different services inside oftheir value prop, versus simply
just providing model portfoliosand keeping it on autopilot.
They're truly driving deepervalue and transformation for the
people that they serve andthat's being reflected now in
their valuation.
(27:55):
I think there's so much more tocome.
There's so many other firmsthat are doing something like
that and that's just a testamentto the focus and intensity they
have toward the future anddriving deeper adoption for the
people they serve.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
Judd, sadly we've made it to the last question of
the pod and we call it the trenddrop.
It's like a desert islandquestion.
If you could only watch ortrack one technology trend in
wealth management, what would itbe?
That's a great question.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
I think the trend to follow is probably around what's
happening with LLMs and what'shappening with AI, simply
because the possibilities withit are endless and I think I'd
be captive any other direction.
I think that will unlock a lotof the future here.
Of what things are doing.
I think a lot of it's stillreally early and it's getting
too much credit, but there's somuch more to go Well.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
Judd, I want to thank you so much for joining us
today.
You know great conversation.
Again, thank you so much foryour time you bet.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
Thanks, Jim.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
Thanks so much for listening to today's episode and
if you're enjoying TradingTomorrow, navigating Trends and
Capital Markets, be sure to like, subscribe and share, and we'll
see you next time.
Welcome to Trading Tomorrow Navigating Trends in
Capital Markets the podcastwhere we deep dive into
technologies reshaping the worldof capital markets.
I'm your host, jim Jockle, aveteran of the finance industry
with a passion for thecomplexities of financial
technologies and market trends.
In each episode, we'll explorethe cutting-edge trends, tools
and strategies driving today'sfinancial landscapes and paving
(00:29):
the way for the future.
With the finance industry at apivotal point, influenced by
groundbreaking innovations, it'smore crucial than ever to
understand how thesetechnological advancements
interact with market dynamics.
Interact with market dynamics.
(00:49):
Today, we're joined by JuddMackerel, co-founder and
managing partner of MileMarker,a groundbreaking fintech firm
that empowers wealth managementcompanies by unlocking the full
potential of their technologystacks.
Firm intelligence isrevolutionizing how financial
advisors integrate systems,automate processes and harness
data to better deliver serviceto their clients.
(01:10):
Judd's a thought leader in thespace, and today we'll dive into
how data is transforming thefuture of wealth management.
So, judd, to start, can youshare the inspiration behind
MileMarker and how it addressesthe challenges wealth management
firms face with theirtechnology stacks?
Speaker 2 (01:25):
That's a great question.
I mean, for the reason westarted mile marker.
Mile marker is my career in themaking and, in a funny sort of
way, because I grew up serving alot of large wealth management
firms, independent brokerdealers, rias, trust companies,
things like you know, entitieslike that that are working to
(01:45):
make progress with theirbusiness using key pieces of
technology, and the problem Ikept seeing was the change in
the industry was outpacing whatthey could actually do with the
partners they had.
They had to figure out a wayforward to make better progress.
And and that really inspired meto start mile marker um,
(02:07):
because we fundamentally want tobe a partner for progress for
the firms that we serve.
There's no reason to be stuck.
Uh, there's, and there's somany opportunities to better
compound the innovation, thedata, the insights that your
business has and then ultimatelyget to a place where your key
systems are actually integratingwith you, versus you having to
(02:29):
try to finagle your way intomaking it work for you and so
like really trying to change theposture and create more
opportunity for the people weserve.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
You know what are some of the biggest trends that
you're seeing in the space andhow are they reshaping how firms
operate?
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Yeah, I mean, I think fundamentally, people are
starting to invest in datawarehouses and data lakes and
all kinds of things around that.
We see a lot of people doingthat but maybe aren't making the
progress they'd hoped.
Or, to the leadership of thecompany, it's more imaginary
than actual.
Those are key things.
Being able to have data to beable to run LLMs and AI on top
(03:10):
of it obviously a very importantpart of the future of our
industry.
A lot of places simply don'thave the data to do that or the
ability to add those layers on,so it's a really rich
opportunity for our wholeindustry to get better, to
mature, to really start to makeprogress in those categories and
(03:31):
to have a key partner thatmakes that happen.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
And so what do you see?
Some of the biggest challenges,though, that these firms are
facing when trying to leveragetheir data for better decision
making.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Well, I think often it's getting out of the
spreadsheets and getting intothe cloud and then getting into
a place where your organizationcan start to actually have a
proactive posture.
And I think a lot of times mostbusinesses have like a 90-day
cadence where we're going tolook at our numbers every 90
days, we're going to makedecisions, we're going to move
(04:02):
forward and they're going torevisit that in 89 days or
whatever, and you know that's athat's a broken model.
Change is happening toofrequently.
Decisions need to be happeningmore often.
There are a lot of things thatare not actually looked at in
the whole process and we see amassive opportunity to modernize
and automate and forecast howbusinesses can be understanding
(04:26):
their business themselves and bemaking better decisions and
fundamentally transforming theirvalue to their clients by
better adoption, better empathy,better service.
That's all driven by the data.
That's the stories the data istelling them.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
And with the launch of MileMarker's firm
intelligence platform.
What are some of the keyfeatures that set it apart from
other fintech solutions in thewealth management space?
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Yeah, it's uniquely built around some of the key
components.
We see that advisory firms andtrust companies and banks and
various financial institutionsneed to be able to understand
how they're doing business and alot of times you see basis
points as kind of the currencyof how everybody gets paid in
one way or another.
(05:13):
We're able to break down howthat gross number is ultimately
netting out and understandinghow production and all these
things happen inside of that.
So you can be making reallygood decisions with the data,
understanding that my business Imay be making more money than
I've ever made, but I'mcertainly not saving that.
(05:37):
Um, you know, maybe that's moregoing out the door or um, we
have clients fidelity to study.
Last year that came out where itshowed the majority of clients
that that RIAs have aregenerally unprofitable, and
helping them understand like,how do we fix this?
How do we redesign our servicemodels?
How do we start to learn whowe're really good with, who's a
(05:59):
win-win scenario as a client andseeing data unlock that, and so
our analytics and our engineare doing that on the regular
for a lot of firms around thecountry and it's been really fun
to see that behavior change forthe CFOs of these firms to come
in and say this is my favoritenumber.
I want to see, like ourforecasted revenue.
I had that earlier this week.
(06:19):
You know one of the CFOs of anawesome firm.
You know she's like I want togo check our end of quarter
number to understand where we'reat and be able to make
decisions and be able toforecast and should we hire,
Should we not?
You know, all these things arereally driven off these real
numbers and I would say,fundamentally, a lot of firms
don't actually know the realnumbers, Like their systems have
(06:40):
a lot of demo data, faux data,things like that, that are
actually abstracting them fromthe truth, and we really help
them get clear to the truth andhave a very fine definition of
what their numbers actually areso they can make real decisions
and not be, you know, trying tosort it out in their own minds.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
Yeah, that fidelity study, that that's.
That's crazy.
I I'm, I'm hoping the endclients don't read it.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
Well, fidelity might have them go back to this being
a retail client with them, andeverybody would win, probably.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
Yeah, there's motivations in every piece of
research, I'm sure, but I'veread things in the past where
you've spoken about that.
Mile marker acts, as you knowquote unquote connective tissue
for firms to harness their datainsights, you know.
Can you explain what that means, how it helps advisors and
better manage their business?
Speaker 2 (07:31):
A big part of our brand promise is that all of our
customers own their databecause of mile marker.
We help you actually bring yourdata down into an environment
that you own and control andthen, with that, we help you
connect that data to your truth,to understanding what it really
is.
When you look at your planningbusiness, your insurance
business, your wealth managementbusiness, how do you really
(07:53):
look at that at an executivelevel?
Because you already have thisperspective.
You probably just have to willit into existence For us.
We actually bring that togetherproactively for you so you can
really truly look at who you areand then define where you want
to go and understand all of thatin one single user interface,
(08:15):
all branded to your firm on yourdomain, and also be able to
drive that down to youraffiliate offices or your
advisors in the field undertheir identity and cascade the
insight to them, which is that'swhere transformation happens.
We see a lot of advisors whojoin companies, an organization,
whether as a member of acorporate, ria or a branch you
(08:38):
know IAR, whatever thatrelationship is.
They're looking for, obviously,the shared services, compliance
, service technology, et cetera,but they're also really looking
for somebody that's been therebefore them and can guide them
to where they want to go, andwhat they're finding is those
institutions actually can'treally deliver, that they're not
(08:59):
really in a proactive posture,and so we fundamentally change
that.
We give you back that abilityto be proactive, make decisions,
understand your truth and thendrive that insight to all key
stakeholders so they canfundamentally improve what they
do.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
The way you categorize digital
transformation was more aboutthe end user and the business
user adding more value to theirclient, where I think the world
thinks about digitaltransformation as process
automation and things of thatnature.
I think that's a reallyfascinating way to look at it.
Any additional thoughts aroundthat?
Speaker 2 (09:33):
That's a good observation.
Yeah, I mean, transformationshould be truly transformational
.
It shouldn't just be a bunch ofbusiness people check a box on
a checklist and say, yeah, wehave our data store and we're
connecting it every day.
We're transformed.
No, you're not, you're just inlike a different context.
It's not until you actuallyapply truth that you can be
transformed.
(09:53):
And that becomes a cycle, too,where you start to improve, you
identify new facts and thingsthat need to improve, and then
you get, you get stronger.
It's the same as, like you know, any person's health and
fitness routine, or even likehabits like this allows you to
actually focus on behaviorchange versus feeling this like
restriction because all of yourstuff is over here, in Never,
(10:17):
neverland.
You know, we're fundamentallychanging that and it's so
exciting.
When we get on the phone withour clients, we're talking to
one of them.
You know a guy that's growingfast.
He's got a bunch of advisors, abunch of clients, and he didn't
have his truth of his firm andnow he does, and now he's able
to make better decisions and nowhe's able to, you know, give
better transparency to his staffaround their numbers, and it's
(10:40):
transforming the posture ofwhich they run and grow their
firm and it's also transformingthe value of their business,
because now they own their dataand they control their analytics
and all that kind of stuff.
So that's a big part of it.
We believe that we pay forourselves and the value we
create for your business, whichis a big part of our inspiration
in doing this as well.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
You know that's the one thing I love about doing
this podcast is getting to chatwith business leaders and
sitting here and change the wayI think about things too.
So thank you for sharing that.
That's awesome.
So you know, data integrationit's, you know.
We can call it a significantchallenge.
We can call it painful,particularly in the context of
(11:20):
mergers and acquisitions.
Right, bringing systemstogether, different data schemas
, you know different ways ofdata input, categorization, you
name it.
You know across the board, it'sjust painful.
So how does MileMarker helpfirms manage that complexities
of integrating different systems, especially post-acquisition?
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Yeah, I think the biggest thing is we help you
have a place to define everyoneinvolved, like everybody that's,
whether they're an office andthey were formerly an RIA.
In another state or time zonethey come into MileMarker.
Now you can kind of corral whothey are and all the things that
have mattered to themhistorically as well as now, the
(12:03):
things that are going to matterto them in the new universe,
and so we can be able to honorthe past and define the future
with the data that we have.
And it's just so important.
I mean, we just got off anengineering call where we're
working on this deeper anddeeper for our clients, wherein
there's a high level ofsubjectivity that exists in all
(12:25):
of these contexts and this isthe trouble is we'd go to
financial advisory firms andthey have four different
financial planning systems.
They'd have a couple ofdifferent risk softwares.
They might even have multipleCRMs.
No one can agree and everyone'strying to play this game of tug
of war to say my system's better, we should all move to my
(12:46):
system.
Well, you all know, just fromhuman behavior, that's never.
If somebody's going to tell youwhat to do, it's never going to
feel as good as if you had theidea, and so what we're able to
do is honor the system pluralitybut then provide truth across
those systems and also help withdata hygiene and integrating
other systems into this to helpmove, address changes from this
(13:09):
system to that system or risknumbers from this system to that
system.
All that stuff needs to beleveled up.
This system, that system, allthat stuff needs to be leveled
up.
But it starts with definitionof who they are and what systems
they use, and then how thosesystems show up in the future
and then how that gives accessto the whole team on the
corporate side to better overseethem, supervise, manage and
(13:31):
hopefully transform how theywork.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
You know.
It's funny that you say thatbecause you know.
So many times, like you know,I've had conversations with you
know, programmers, it in thepast where you know, certain
things become religion, whetherit's you know programming,
languages, systems you know.
So it almost seems like at somepoint, the biggest challenge of
(13:54):
integration is actually thepeople themselves.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
Yeah, I think we're.
I mean, integration hasobviously been a challenge and
it's still a challenge becausethings change.
But the real elephant in theroom is adoption.
As much as integration getsblamed for everything, it's
truly adoption.
And if we can help change thatand drive adoption on all these
different systems and helpingthem actually get to what they
(14:17):
really want with that system,you know that's a big win for
everyone involved and it cutsdown on all this context
switching.
It helps them actually, youknow, be more focused on the
client and be moretransformative to the client as
well, and it's a win-win.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
You know you mentioned cloud technology
before right.
Obviously, there's plenty ofdiscussions around the cloud and
willingness to adopt andwhatnot you know.
So how does cloud technologyfactor into, you know, my own
market firm intelligenceplatform and what advantages
does it provide for wealthmanagement firms in terms of
scalability, accessibility,elasticity, etc.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
Yeah, I think when I got started my career, I'd go
walk into an advisor's officeand I'd walk past these rows of
file cabinets that essentiallyrepresented that business.
It was a folder for everyclient.
You might still have that.
It's not uncommon.
Still Today we see more andmore firms that have invested in
data to some degree.
Maybe it's a server running in acloset, maybe it's a
(15:19):
relationship with Azure or AWSor Google Cloud or something
else.
We have a mindset thatessentially says we're going to
meet you where you are, whateversystem you have today.
That's okay.
Let's help you take that to thenext level without you having
to become a systems programmeror the company IT guy or
(15:41):
whatever it is.
That's not necessarily yourcore focus.
Let's help you cut through thechase and put that data into a
more transformative cloudcontext, but also still live
there if you want it to be.
If you want to stay in Azure,you want to stay in your closet
cool, we can figure that out.
But we're going to take thatdata and we're going to
synthesize it with everythingelse that's already in the cloud
and then give you that straightthrough comprehensive cloud
(16:05):
environment that represents yourbusiness as a living, breathing
thing that's constantly beingupdated and analyzed, and also
adding in your unique logicBecause you have this stuff
right analyze and also adding inyour unique logic because you
have this stuff right.
The most creative application asmuch as we have designers and
developers that I see infinancial services is still
Excel.
There's still advisors runninglike in you know, cfos and
(16:27):
leaders running really complexthings in Excel that ultimately
requires them to run it everytime, even with macros and all
these things.
We help you really transformthat into a much more
application-based experiencethat is truly then adoptable by
the people that need it, andthat logic can run in the cloud.
Even if it's running off, thatdata you still have in that
(16:49):
closet.
So it's a really fun thing forus to be able to help like that
and meet people where they're atand then help them get where
they want to go.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
You know, I always joke about my career.
I always say you know, thefirst 15 years I lived in Word,
the last 15 years I live inExcel.
And there's so muchconversation about the end of
Excel, operationalizing, youknow, utilizing better, stronger
tools like Python via cloudservices.
(17:18):
Do you have a prediction to thedeath of Excel?
Speaker 2 (17:23):
I think it will outlive all of us.
It's like a cockroach in anuclear explosion.
It's going to keep goingbecause at the end of the day,
I'm going to cut to the chaseand I want to get this, I'm
going to have it here.
But it's even like BI tools,like Power BI and things like
that.
There's a lot of cool thingshappening there, but it's in
isolation.
I want this stuff to live and Iactually want it to be driving
(17:45):
automation in my business.
I want AI to be influencing itand be building bots and agents
and things like that thatactually can go from there.
So it has to get more mature,but it's that's still like
foundational level.
That is our whiteboard right.
For many of us, it's like allright, open up spreadsheet,
let's figure this out, let's go.
I'm going to explain tosomebody.
(18:06):
It's going to go someplace.
It might be the source of truthforever, it might just be there
for a moment, but it's.
It's that whiteboard that weall start with and I don't think
it's going anywhere.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
And, just for the record, a Microsoft man just
pulled outside of my house.
So you know, many firms arevery still cautious about
transitioning to cloud-basedsolutions due to concerns about
security, data privacy, cost.
You know things of that nature,you know.
So how does MileMarker addressthese concerns and ensure
(18:37):
security of sensitive financialdata?
Speaker 2 (18:39):
Yeah, we're fundamentally a fiduciary for
our clients, doing what's inyour best interest with how that
works.
I mean that means we use a lotof cloud technology that has
massive adoption, that hasglobal security.
It's often used by governmentsand things like that Like the
CIA, for example, is one of thetop customers historically of
(19:00):
AWS and we're using those sortsof tooling Because,
fundamentally, I don't want tohire a thousand developers.
I want a thousand developersthat work for Amazon or
Snowflake or AWS or Azure.
Excuse me, you know, let's,let's, let's build upon the
growth of the community andlet's, let's take that
(19:24):
transformation and fast forwardit.
And that's the way to do itversus reinventing the wheel.
The wheel is pretty darn goodwhen it comes to computing.
Everybody likes to demonizecompute.
There's a lot of ways to managecompute efficiently for people.
You just have to think about itlike you're spending your own
money and a lot of times peopledon't they're spending somebody
(19:46):
else's money Like, no, I'mspending my literally with our
customers.
I'm spending my own money onyour compute.
So I'm going to do it asshrewdly as possible to get you
the results you need and to giveyou that benefit, and so we sit
on the same side of the tablewith our clients when it comes
to compute, comes to security,when it comes to all those sorts
(20:06):
of things, because, at the endof the day, we're you know,
these are people that we careabout Like they're.
They're big firms sometimes,but they're.
They're people that we spend alot, large portion of our life
with and we're wanting to reallytransform the future together.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
You know it's.
It's an interesting philosophyto say think about, you know,
spending your own dollar.
I recently read an article howfirms now are, you know, moving
back to on-prem right because ofcost, you know, but you have a
different philosophical approachto that in terms of it's
(20:44):
spending my own money, you know,with these tools, would it
possibly suggest that firms arenot thinking about that?
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Yeah, I mean.
So.
I love David Hanna-Meyer Hansen, but I totally disagree with
him on this shift back to local.
If you don't, you're notfamiliar with David Hanna-Meyer
Hansen.
He also goes by DHH and so youknow he's like one of the top
guys in the history of the web.
In my opinion.
Ruby on Rails powers a ton ofapplications in the world and is
(21:13):
really transformativetechnology.
We use something similar hereto power a lot of our
applications.
But his shift is I want to stopspending $50,000 a month on AWS
to power Basecamp and I want tobring that down locally.
I think it's a very viable usecase in that context.
But for us like where every oneof our customers is like a
(21:36):
Basecamp plus another, you know,like we have to have infinite
scale here as we grow and as weserve people.
If we have 100,000 customerslogging into one of these
applications at any given moment, that's great.
I'm sure Basecamp can do 20Xthat.
But when we show up, we need tobe extremely performant.
We need to be extremely secure.
I need to not worry about ahurricane decimating my server
(22:01):
or my server farm or dealingwith redundant systems.
We used to spend a lot of moneyback in my prior company with
co-sentry and like redundantdata farms and you know, running
all of that stuff.
It was a pain in the neck, itwas so bad.
A server would go down, we'd bespending a million dollars on
buying new racks and it was justlike why don't we just build
(22:23):
upon the overall pace ofevolution here in this industry
by partnering with other people?
And I think the other thing youhave to think about is what is
your actual core competency?
Is your core competencymanaging servers or is your core
competency fundamentallyserving investors?
And for us, our core competencyis fundamentally helping
(22:46):
transform businesses to unlocktheir potential, and so for that
we're going to choose best inclass, to give you the best in
class experience on our side ofthe house.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
Well, it brings up a great question in terms of are
you a financial institution orare you an IT company?
So what role, if any, do yousee cloud computing playing in
the future of wealth management?
I mean particularly in theterms of data integration,
automation and client service.
Yeah, I mean, I think it's onlythe beginning of it.
I mean particularly in theterms of the integration,
automation and client service.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
Yeah, I mean I think it's only the beginning of it.
I mean, everybody always lovesto to get to be a baseball
expert and talk about whatinning they're in or whatever
when this comes up.
But like we are early in thegame of of building this and I
think that cloud computing willevolve.
I think compression is evolving.
You're seeing that a lot withwhat's happening with open AI
and things like that.
(23:32):
Like you know, I think it'sfunny because that was kind of
the core part of Silicon Valley.
The HBO show was all aboutcompute or compression Excuse me
and so, but that compressionultimately is a real thing and
how we do that and how thatscales.
I can tell you this If you'regoing to buy off the shelf and
have something sitting somewhere, it is not going to benefit
(23:53):
from that.
You're going to be installingpackets.
You're going to be in this likeconstant improvement of that.
You're going to be focused onmaking that better versus
everything else.
That's getting better for you.
You're getting the new releases.
You're being able to go forwardfrom there and transform your
business and and I just thinkthat's for almost everyone
involved that's probably thebest thing If you're doing
something locally and you wantto have the ability to go fast
(24:16):
and keep the cost down.
Absolutely do that.
It's not a binary thing.
It really is just like what'sthe best thing for us to go and
scale this business and to havecomplete certainty about our
future and our overall cloudscale.
As we go, I think we're goingto see a lot more stuff
happening with data sharing,wherein your analytics from
(24:38):
different systems are going tobe shared in a cloud computing
engine versus via an API, andthat's going to change how much
data you're consuming and howmuch data you're going to need
to actually report out as well.
All that is a new economy thatwe're all starting to get more
familiar with, and the potentialwith it's massive.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
So you know, in the past few years we've seen an
acceleration of kind of digitaltools for client engagement.
You know, how do you seetechnology shaping the future of
the client advisor relationshipwith wealth management?
Speaker 2 (25:10):
I think it's going to be all about adoption, and the
fact is that most retail clientscan do pretty darn well with a
couple of different ETFs andjust managing their budget and
being able to be on the samepage with their partner.
There's a lot of things therethat are fundamental and are
(25:31):
pretty automatable.
We see this from a lot ofdifferent investing tools.
It used to be 12 years ago orso.
We'd have the betterments andwealth fronts and things like
that that people are afraidthey're going to eat their lunch
, and we realized that only 20%of that becomes relevant in a
more holistic wealth managementcontext.
But what it did teach us isthat the value isn't from those
(25:51):
things.
The value is from how do wehelp drive adoption on a state
on tax.
Tax is so multiple taxoptimization and the way you
trade to tax decisions you makeand how you govern your finances
and where you live and whatthat means and all of that.
How you classify your taxes,how you structure your
businesses.
(26:12):
That's where advisors reallyshould be deep diving with their
clients to bring transformation.
Technologies like directindexing and things like that
can be certainly valuable,especially for tax loss
harvesting and things like that.
Those are the things that arebecoming more and more at the
forefront of the advisorexperience because of the
(26:33):
ability to have a lot of thesethings more automated, more in
the cloud, and we see that'sonly going to progress.
The new solutions that arecoming down the road in 10 years
will make all this stuff that'stoday cutting edge look pretty
antiquated, and that's whatprogress looks like.
Edge look pretty, prettyantiquated, and that's that's
what progress looks like.
(26:53):
So we can either sit here andwait for the next thing or we
can be part of today and build ameaningful business that will
transform into the future, andwe would see this to the time in
which we're recording.
I never like to date a podcasttoo much because I think these
are usually pretty good everyevery day.
But just recently the firmCreative Planning, which is
based in Kansas, serves about$250 billion in assets.
(27:15):
I mean, that's a firm that is agreat example here.
They were valued this week at$16 billion and with that,
probably the largest independentRIA valuation to date, and with
that there really is areflection of the deeper value
add that they offer theirindustry and how they provide
(27:35):
tax, how they provide legal, howthey provide all these
different services inside oftheir value prop, versus simply
just providing model portfoliosand keeping it on autopilot.
They're truly driving deepervalue and transformation for the
people that they serve andthat's being reflected now in
their valuation.
(27:55):
I think there's so much more tocome.
There's so many other firmsthat are doing something like
that and that's just a testamentto the focus and intensity they
have toward the future anddriving deeper adoption for the
people they serve.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
Judd, sadly we've made it to the last question of
the pod and we call it the trenddrop.
It's like a desert islandquestion.
If you could only watch ortrack one technology trend in
wealth management, what would itbe?
That's a great question.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
I think the trend to follow is probably around what's
happening with LLMs and what'shappening with AI, simply
because the possibilities withit are endless and I think I'd
be captive any other direction.
I think that will unlock a lotof the future here.
Of what things are doing.
I think a lot of it's stillreally early and it's getting
too much credit, but there's somuch more to go Well.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
Judd, I want to thank you so much for joining us
today.
You know great conversation.
Again, thank you so much foryour time you bet.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
Thanks, Jim.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
Thanks so much for listening to today's episode and
if you're enjoying TradingTomorrow, navigating Trends and
Capital Markets, be sure to like, subscribe and share, and we'll
see you next time.
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