April 9, 2024 • 47 mins
Sara Hart is a speaker, author, coach, and the founder of Prime Spark, where she leads the change for how older women are seen in our society. She spent 20 years at Pfizer, where she was responsible for leadership, team, and organization development for the research division in the US, and was also head of HR at the research center in the UK. Sara was the Executive Director of the Institute for Women and Technology, an advanced research and advocacy group increasing the impact of women on all aspects of technology. In this episode, Sara shares her passion for advocating for older women and helping them find their spark in their prime years.
Listen in to learn the importance of creating a thinking environment as an organization to give appreciation and demonstrate equality for older women. You will also learn how to shift your mindset, embrace your value as an older woman, and use it to make a difference even when you face pushback.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Nan McKay (00:06):
Are you an older woman with or without experience?
Looking for a spark in your prime years?Sarah Hart, an advocate for older women, is
here to give you tips on how to approach thisnext phase of your life.
She shares how she did it and how to valuewomen for their thought and accomplishments.
(00:27):
Welcome.
I'm Nan McKay, the voice behind trailblazers
impact.
Your beacon to extraordinary women
trailblazing unique paths.
Our podcast spotlights luminaries whose life
stories inspire and empower delivered to yourears bi weekly.
Buckle up for another episode packed withpowerful narratives and empowering journeys on
(00:50):
trailblazers impact.
Stay with us.
This is Nan McKay and today we are honored tobe in the company of Dr. Sarah Hart.
She's a dynamic change agent who's sparking atransformative movement aimed at redefining
how society perceives and interacts withsenior women.
(01:13):
With a rich tapestry of experiences spanningfrom leading training for a Fortune 100
company to championing women in technology,Sarah combines her vast experience with a
fierce dedication to uplifting senior women.
As we delve into our journey, the prime spark
(01:37):
movement and her insights on leadership, getready for a compelling conversation filled
with groundbreaking ideas and heartfeltwisdom.
So welcome, Sarah.
Sara Hart (01:51):
Thank you, Nana. I'm delighted to be here.
Nan McKay (01:54):
Sarah, could you start by sharing with us some of the inspiration and mission
behind your initiative, Prime Spark?And what was the catalyst that prompted you to
launch this movement?
Sara Hart (02:08):
I'd be happy to do that.
Nan.
I think that sort of the final straw was Ididn't get terrific treatment in a doctor's
office and it was because of my age, maybe mygender too, but certainly my age.
And I left and thought that can't keephappening.
That just can't keep happening.
(02:28):
Medical science is not paying attention to
women very much, period, and certainly not toolder women.
And that's not okay.
So at that point, I was working with a coach
and I said, okay, I know what I want to donext.
I want to work with and on behalf of olderwomen.
And she said, oh, your golden years.
(02:52):
And I said, oh, no, not your golden years.
I want to work with women in their prime, intheir fifty s, sixty s, seventy s, eighty s,
and I want to help them find that spark deepinside that will ignite them into the next
(03:13):
period of their life.
That's interesting.
That spark in the prime of their lives.
That's their prime spark.
And that's where it came from.
Nan McKay (03:24):
Well, you have an impressive background in leadership development and
you've held significant roles in majorcorporations and institutions.
How have these experiences informed?Or maybe shaped your perspective on the
treatment of senior women in the professionalworld.
Sara Hart (03:45):
Oh, man.
When I first started, and we're talking about
a lot of years ago now, I was the only woman.
Oftentimes in meetings that I went to, and I
was in HR.
And so this is significant.
As time passed, there certainly were morewomen.
(04:08):
I was in an organization that was thesciences.
And so we were talking about chemists andbiologists and it people.
And so more and more women were hired.
But initially there just weren't very many
women.
And many times I would go to meetings,
(04:31):
professional meetings outside of work, ormeetings with the company in other locations
and so forth.
There would be a room full of men and me.
And I was never mistreated, but I never reallyfelt part of it either.
(04:53):
And this was way before we had anyconsciousness about this.
I didn't realize how much not a part of thegroups.
I felt they would play poker.
I don't like to play poker.
They would go to the bar.
I'm not a big bar person.
(05:13):
They would go out for golf, and I can hit theball, but I'm not a very good golf player.
I think a lot of that time actually was prettylonely, but we didn't really think about it
then.
And as I say, I was never mistreated.
(05:34):
But one of the things I want is for women toalways feel part of the group they're in,
always listened to, paid attention to.
If they're saying something, that's worth
listening to.
But the number of times that I have observed,
and everybody talks about this, but it's true.
(05:55):
I've seen it so many times in a meeting, a
woman will say something and nobody will payvery much attention.
And then a man will say pretty much the samething and it's, oh, what a good idea.
And that gets more so with age.
And I think that that is getting worse because
(06:17):
I've talked to young women now, for me, youngwomen in their forty s, and they feel
sometimes belittled because of their age.
So in their 40s, let alone their fifty s,
sixty s, seventy s. And so that's just notokay.
(06:38):
It's not okay for the women, and it's not okayfor the organization, because the organization
is losing so much potentially fantasticinformation and knowledge and experience.
And at a time when organizations can't findenough workers, here are all these experienced
(07:01):
older people, men and women.
But women bore the brunt of the layoffs during
COVID and are bearing the brunt of not beingable to get back in.
And this is all not okay.
And so I have a long history of watching what
happens inside organizations, and I can seethis so clearly, and that's got to change.
Nan McKay (07:26):
I know exactly what you mean, because, of course, I have sometimes felt the
same way.
Let's turn it this way so we can kind of talk
to each other about this.
I think you're right in that I think it's
worse as women get older because we are notonly facing the gender types of
(07:53):
discrimination, in a sense, ignoring us, whichis, in a sense, discrimination, but we also
are fighting.
Sara Hart (08:05):
Almost.
Nan McKay (08:05):
Like we're being invalidated.
Is that the word?
The right word?
Sara Hart (08:11):
Yeah, it's very much the right word.
Nan McKay (08:13):
And the question is not whether it's happened that much before and we've
overcome it.
The question is really what's happening today?
And do you feel like perhaps we're going backto where we were to some degree?
Sara Hart (08:27):
That's an interesting question, man, because as many of us did, I went through
the women's movement and the years after that,and until the last, say, five to ten years, I
have felt that we were making progress.
We weren't there, but I have felt we were
making progress.
(08:48):
But I do feel at this point that we're sort of
going backwards.
And I don't know that we'll be back to the
50s, twirling around in our kitchen and ourkrenlins, happy with our refrigerator.
I don't think we'll go back to that.
(09:08):
But I do think that in this very difficult
time we're living in, women's rights are beingtaken away and being ignored to an extent that
I don't think it was true before.
Nan McKay (09:27):
Do you also feel that women are viewed more and more and accepting the view as
social objects?In a sense, as sexual objects, I should say,
in the sense of the clothes, the high heels,the emphasis on looking sexy.
(09:52):
Do you think that it's hard to have that imageand also be taken seriously in the boardroom?
Sara Hart (09:59):
Well, I don't know.
That is how younger, successful women look
now.
And when I think sort of what you just said, I
think I'm out of date.
I am out of date.
So I don't know.
I don't think from what you just said, in a
sense, it's making the belittling or theignoring or the discounting.
(10:25):
Our fault.
Nan McKay (10:28):
Some piece of it, if you buy into it, perhaps that's true.
Sara Hart (10:37):
If I wear sexier clothes and very high heels, it's my fault if I'm not taken
seriously.
Really.
I don't know that that follows.
Nan McKay (10:48):
It shouldn't.
It really shouldn't.
I don't know that I want to link it thattightly.
I think it's more the feeling that we have theprojection of the image of what will be
success if we do such and such.
And it seems like it's a lot wrapped up in how
(11:12):
women look.
Not how they think, not how smart they are,
not how good ideas they are, but the factor ofimpressions and the factor of how people are
taken seriously or not, I think somehow isimpacted.
(11:34):
Maybe I'm wrong.
I don't know.
Sara Hart (11:36):
Yeah, I don't know.
Unquestionably, in my opinion, unquestionably,
women are from a very early age, rewarded forhow they look, how they dress, whether or not
they're sexy, all of that.
We know all that.
(11:58):
We know all that.
And so my concern is when that all starts to
fade, then how much a woman in the workforceis worth begins to fade.
Nan McKay (12:13):
That's an interesting point.
Sara Hart (12:14):
That's the part that concerns me.
So when I get to the point of my hair starts
getting a little gray, I'm probably inmenopause because I have these sweats and
everybody can see what's happening to me.
Things that didn't used to be saggy are
starting to get a little saggy.
(12:36):
You wouldn't call me sexy anymore.
I can't even have babies.
What am I worth?
So if a woman, so much of a woman's worth istied up with how she looks, then when all of
that starts to fade, so does the worth of thewoman in a lot of people's eyes.
(12:57):
That's what concerns me.
Nan McKay (12:59):
Yeah, that's a really interesting perspective.
Because on one hand, women should have theright to look any way they want.
And if they feel that society is saying thatthis, whatever that is, looks good, then I
should have the right to be able to look likethat if I want to.
I think what we're talking about, one thingwe're talking about are the consequences of
(13:25):
the action or the reason for it or what'sprecipitating it over here.
And the result over here being as you age, ifthat's the value that you were put, that was
placed on you for any reason, is that stillthe same value that you're going to get when
(13:48):
you lose that exterior shell?
Sara Hart (13:51):
And I think in many cases now, the answer is no. And I think back when I was in
corporate and in the time that I was there,some friends of mine and I laugh about this
and bemoan the days we got up and put onpantyhose and a shirt and jacket and a little
(14:20):
tie.
And the more we looked like the men that we
worked with, the easier it was to be in theworkplace.
Nan McKay (14:30):
And that was a costume in a way.
Sara Hart (14:32):
That was the costume.
Nan McKay (14:34):
And maybe what people are saying today is, well, that's the costume.
But I think it's hard to be taken seriouslysometimes if that perception is there on this
side, because people should be valued fortheir mind and their actions and their
accomplishments, and I don't know that we havethat freedom.
(14:58):
Do you think we do?
Sara Hart (15:01):
Well, huge.
Across the board.
No, I don't think so.
I think that's also true for men, but it's
much more true for women.
And, Nan, just to get back to what we were
talking about before, I think that when I wasworking, the expectation were that I would
(15:22):
dress the way I just described.
I think the expectation for how younger,
successful women dress now is different.
I don't know if they're perceived to be
dressing overly sexy, and so how should Ivalue her or if that is what.
That's the dress expectation now, as comparedwith a little jacket, a shirt and a tie,
(15:47):
that's the costume.
Nan McKay (15:48):
Maybe today.
Yeah, it could very well be.
Sara Hart (15:52):
Yeah, I wonder about that.
I mean, I think every once in a while, when I
get my knickers in, a real twist about howmuch time everybody's spending on their cell
phone or think, and then, you know, peoplearen't going to be able to have face to face
communication, and they don't understand that.
And why can't they even write cursive?
And on and on and on.
I think.
(16:12):
Sarah, get a grip.
Nan McKay (16:17):
Well, let's talk about this thinking.
Know, we've said people should be valued fortheir thoughts and their accomplishments, and
the idea of creating thinking environments isreally quite intriguing.
Could you elaborate on what this entails foryou and how it's really crucial in today's
(16:39):
fast paced society?
Sara Hart (16:41):
Yes, ma'am.
Thank you.
Yeah, I do a lot of thinking environment work,and if anybody is interested in that, you
should look at the website timethink.com.
The work was developed by a woman in the UK.
She's american, but she married a british manand lives there.
And it's brilliant work.
(17:02):
The basis of the work is any action we take is
only as good as the thinking we do before,which sounds like a duh, but in our fast paced
world, how many times do we sit down andreally think through what we're about to do?
Not very often.
We just do it.
And in my work with teams and organizations,which I don't do very much anymore, but it
(17:25):
used to be, I used to watch over and over andover again.
We don't have time to do all that, Sarah, butthey have time to do it over and over and over
when it didn't work.
When it didn't work.
So that's the basis of it.
The idea is to help people think really well
and for themselves.
(17:48):
What do you really think about this?
I am biased by this work, of course, but Icannot think of a time in history, in my
history, when we more needed people thinkingfor themselves.
And so I think the work is so important rightnow.
And what we have found is, if that's soimportant, if thinking really well and for
(18:14):
yourself is so important, how do we helppeople think really well?
I wasn't taught to think.
I was taught to speak, I was taught to write,
I was taught to do things, but I wasn't reallytaught to think.
And so what we have found is that one of themain things that determines how well somebody
(18:34):
thinks is how they're treated while they'rethinking.
So is there good attention?Is there equality?
Is there a felt equality?Is there appreciation?
So there are ten of those, we call themcomponents in a thinking environment.
And if some of those are present, thinkingwill be better.
(18:56):
If they're all present, thinking will beabsolutely as good as it can be.
So when we learn these, the processes, welearn to give really good attention, to give
appreciation, to demonstrate equality with allof the components and the work sounds very
(19:20):
simplistic, and it is very hard for most of usto do because when the thinking environment,
we never interrupt.
And if we think about most conversations, we
are interrupted all the time.
I don't mean to pick on them, but a lot of
studies have been done on interactions withdoctors, medical doctors.
(19:45):
And then when they're asked, how long do youlet a patient talk before you interrupt?
They'll say several minutes.
I let them talk.
I want to hear what they.
And when it's measured, the actual time is
something like 12 seconds.
And so if you really want somebody to think
for themselves, you can't interrupt.
(20:07):
You can't even ask really good questions,
because even really good questions areguiding.
And so in the thinking environment, we don'task questions.
The only question we ever ask is, what do youwant to think about and what are your
thoughts?And then what more do you think or feel or
want to say?
Nan McKay (20:26):
So would you say it's strategic thinking, or would you label it in any way or
just.
Sara Hart (20:33):
It'S your individual best thinking.
And whether it's strategic or creative or
something else sort of depends on what youwant to think about.
I want to think about the strategy for thenext team meeting, or I want to think about
coming up with a really creative idea for theproject.
(20:54):
So the kind of thinking, as I say, I think,sort of depends on what the person wants to
think about.
Nan McKay (21:02):
Good point.
Sara Hart (21:03):
They are invited to think about anything they want.
Nan McKay (21:05):
Well, your role as executive director of the Institute for Women in
Technology, it must have provided some realunique insights.
Can you share some of those challenges andsuccesses that you encountered in advocating
for women in such a male dominated field?
Sara Hart (21:23):
Yeah, I mean, that was one of the real focuses of the institute was to try to
get more women in technology.
And that has been a goal for years, and it's
(21:44):
not changed.
It's unchanged.
The numbers don't change, and the.
And the effort that goes into it goes up and
up and up and up, and the numbers don'tchange.
So, anyway, we won't get into that.
Well, it was sort of a securitist route that
it took to my being the executive director ofthat institute, because brilliant woman Anita
(22:09):
Borg was the founder of the institute.
She was one of the very first top women in it,
and she was wonderful, wonderful woman.
She started the Institute for Women and
Technology, and she hired me, actually, tocome in, and she wanted the institute and all
the work to be a thinking environment.
(22:30):
So that's why I started working with the
institute.
And then, very sadly, she died.
And before she died, asked me if I would bethe executive director, and I didn't want to
do it, but I couldn't say no, so I did it.
It was hard because I'm not a technical woman,
(22:52):
and all of the women in the institute weretechnical women.
And then there's me, and I'm not a technicalwoman.
I know how to turn on the computer, but if itdoesn't happen, I don't know what to do.
And so it was really hard, and I saw myself assort of an interim because I knew that we
(23:15):
didn't want this permanently.
One of the things that was most fun was that
we had workshops for college age women allover the United States.
And so we went to big universities all overthe United States, and we had workshops using
the thinking environment with women who are invery beginning of their it career.
(23:46):
And so in the workshop would be these women.
There would be administrators, women
administrators, and faculty from the collegeor university, and then there would be women
from the community, some group would bechosen.
And in one case there was like a batteredwomen's shelter.
In another case it was disabled people,handicapped people.
(24:13):
There was some group chosen, and they wouldcome and they would talk about what kind of
technology would be helpful to them, becauseour goal was to not make it faster, cuter,
with more bells and whistles, but to make ituseful.
And to make it useful, we needed to know whatthey wanted.
(24:36):
So we would have all these wonderful ideas,and we would decide on through a whole process
of using thinking environment, we would decideon three.
And then the young women students would takethose back to their course for the semester
and design them.
And so, for example, one of the things that
(24:59):
they designed was an automatic vacuum cleaner.
Way before that.
Whatever you call that thing is now that thingthat runs around by itself and scares cats.
Yeah, they thought that a long time.
This was years ago when they came up with that
in the handicapped group, one of the thingsthey thought of, for example, had worked on
(25:25):
was having jackets with heaters because theirjoints hurt, especially in the cold.
So there'd be heaters.
So it was all sorts of stuff.
And it was really fun.
And it was helpful because we actually
designed and built things that worked.
(25:47):
So that was probably the most rewarding part
of being there.
I just loved it.
It was not rewarding, not seeing the numbersfor women in technology go up, but this work
was very rewarding.
Nan McKay (26:05):
Well, it sounds like it was.
And you do see women making strides today.
I've got several that I've interviewed on thepodcast and YouTube channel Kitty Cheney Reid
comes to my mind.
But we still need more.
We still need more.
As an author of three books, three.
(26:27):
Could you give our listeners a glimpse intothe core themes that you explore in your
writings and kind of, what do you hope readerstake away from your work?
Sara Hart (26:38):
Oh, thank you, Nan. The first book was I wrote years ago, and it's out of print
now, but it was introduction to interpersonalcommunication, and it was really a fun book to
write because it had a lot of pictures thatshowed body language and people in settings
and so forth.
And that book, my intention, I really wanted.
(27:00):
Well, I had been asked to write that book forthe communication 101 in one of the
universities in New York.
And so it was meant to be the beginning
textbook, but it was really fun, and I wantedit to be a fun book that students would learn
a lot from and have fun with.
(27:21):
I wanted them to learn a lot and have fun with
it.
The second book I wrote is the upside of
downsizing, getting to enough.
I went through a major downsizing of my home
six years ago now.
And it was hard.
It was really painful.
So I started writing about it, thinking maybe
(27:42):
that could help.
And while I was writing, I thought, well,
maybe this would be helpful to other peoplebecause it's about the emotional side of
downsizing your home, not the practicality.
So it doesn't talk about box this up and take
it here and box this up and take it here.
It talks about what does it feel like to get
(28:03):
rid of things you've had for many years anddon't have any street value, but have deep
intrinsic value.
They may be things that were in your family.
I had some things, for example, that my motherhad made.
I ended up with all the family pictures and Icouldn't take them all, and so I had to throw
(28:26):
most of them away.
And so it's a book that really, I hope helps
people when they're downsizing their homebecause it's painful.
I've done a lot of book readings, and I knowthat a lot of people who are getting ready for
a major downsizing have been in their homes30, 40, 50 years, and they have accumulated so
(28:49):
much and so much stuff that's valuable tothem.
That's hard.
My third book is Prime Spark women over 55.
It's our time and it's a workbook.
It has 30 questions.
And the best way to use that book, I think, isto get a group of women together and go
(29:11):
through a chapter a week, however often youmeet, and there are five questions in six
chapters.
So meet for six weeks, use each chapter and
have each woman answer the question forherself and then come and discuss it.
Nan McKay (29:29):
That sounds like a great idea.
I totally agree with you.
And I think there's another aspect of thistoo.
On your second book, when you're talking aboutdownsizing, part of the angst, I think, or
sadness or, I'm not sure what you'd call itthat a lot of us, I think of today is these
(29:52):
things that we valued so much, nobody wants.
Sara Hart (29:56):
Right?
Nan McKay (29:57):
I think, for instance, in my way back growing up years, Lennox China was a big,
the, what was that thing called where you puteverything aside when you were going to get
hope chest?That's what it was.
You had the hope chest.
But no one could imagine.
(30:18):
I mean, what you did was embroiderpillowcases.
No one could imagine that you would be gettingLennox China.
But every year for my birthday, I asked forone plate.
So I have some beautiful Lennox china.
I don't know what's going to happen to know
(30:39):
it's not anything.
But I valued it so much and it was costly.
But that doesn't seem to matter today becausepeople are like, I really don't have any room
for it.
I don't really entertain like that.
Sara Hart (30:56):
Right. Yeah. When I do my talks on the book, I say, if you're saving things for
your kids, don't.
Because they don't want your china, they don't
want your silver, they don't want yourcrystal, they don't want your linen.
They don't even want the table that it wenton.
(31:18):
And good luck getting rid of that stuff now.
Nan McKay (31:23):
Yeah, give it to goodwill.
And people just have to polish silver.
Are you kidding me?
Sara Hart (31:31):
Are you kidding? We have a totally different lifestyle now.
I mean, people just don't live that way.
In fact, people our age don't even live that
way.
I was just talking to someone before we came
on about how we used to go to each other'shouses all the time for dinner and somebody
(31:53):
would cook.
A big meal would be all set.
And I don't know if that stopped with COVID orif it had already stopped.
But most of the time now we agree to meet outand go.
Yeah.
Nan McKay (32:10):
I'm not sure it was Covid, although that could have been some of it.
I think it's just a more casual lifestyle.
Maybe that's a result of COVID as well, but a
casual lifestyle.
I mean, I still have the dining room, I still
have the hut.
I still have all my dishes in there.
And I like to have people.
I have.
(32:30):
So many of us have relocated, like, Irelocated from Arizona, where I used to do
that, and San Diego before that, where I usedto do that.
And now up here, a, I don't know anybody, andb, if you did that, it's almost like you'd set
the stage for them, maybe feeling that theyhad to do it in return.
(32:55):
And maybe they don't have that kind of stuffthat they've saved.
I don't know.
It just doesn't seem to be important to people
anymore.
Sara Hart (33:04):
I think the only time that it works, and I don't think it works, but last
year I decided for some reason, and please,the next time I decide this, somebody stopped
me, that I wanted to cook Thanksgiving dinner.
And so I spent the entire day and evening
(33:28):
cooking, clean, eating and cleaning up andputting away.
And it was fun.
But, oh, Lordy, if I ever do that again, I
hope somebody holds me off, because I used todo that and I don't want to do that.
That is exhausting and I don't think it's justthat I'm older.
(33:50):
It just seems like, look what I could havedone with all that time.
Nan McKay (33:56):
Well, it's little things like the china that you have may have a silver rim, and
we were taught not to put that in thedishwasher, that you had to do it by hand.
And besides that, it might break your china.
And it was $50 a plate.
You didn't dare do that, so therefore, youdon't use it as much because of that kind of
(34:17):
stuff, too.
Sara Hart (34:18):
I have to wash this by hand.
You're kidding.
Nan McKay (34:21):
You're kidding me.
The realm of coaching.
Let's talk about that a minute.
It's really vast and varied.
When you mentioned coaching women changeagents dedicated to bettering the world, what
specific challenges do you think that theymight face, and how do you tailor your
(34:46):
approach to address them?
Sara Hart (34:48):
That's a great question, man.
I think that for many of us, the major
challenge we face is internal.
Many of us buy into because it is omnipresent
in our society.
Buy into the fact that I'm too old to start
doing that kind of thing.
(35:08):
Who do I think I am?
I'm in my late 50s.
I'm in my 60s.
I'm in my 70s.
I'm in my 80s.
You're kidding me.
I can't do that.
I'm too old to do that.
The saddest thing I run into are women who
have spent lifetime as a homemaker taking careof a home and children and usually a spouse
(35:34):
and oftentimes an extended family.
They've taken care of the calendars, maybe
three or four calendars.
They have done everything.
They've been on countless boards andcommittees, and now they feel like they don't
have any skills.
And I think, look at what you've done.
Look at what you've organized and run.
(35:54):
Look at your financial ability.
Look at your team building.
So it's for women who have not been in the
workplace.
It's that for women who have been, it's a fear
of trying to do things outside theorganization.
I know when I left the organization, I'vebeen.
(36:16):
And I was terrified, because my whole life,I'd been taken care of by my parents, by the
college, by my graduate school, by theuniversity where I taught, by my employer for
all those years.
And now it's me.
Oh, my gosh.
And so the biggest hurdle initially, and it
can last, is internal.
(36:38):
And after that, one of the big hurdles is even
though, in my opinion, it's working for them,many women do not want to think or talk about
getting older.
I run into women who've gotten really mad at
me for wanting them to think about what it'slike being an older woman.
(37:03):
I don't want to be an older woman.
I'm not going to be.
Well, I suppose then you want to die.
I try not to say that, but if I'm being sort
of naughty, I will say that.
So you run into women who don't want to think
about it.
You run into women who think they don't have
any skills.
(37:23):
You run into a society that thinks that you're
worthless, that you're old.
You're doing what?
And so the hurdles are many, many.
But they're worth facing, because there's
never been a time when women's older, women'swisdom, experience and skills is more needed
(37:48):
than right now.
And we have to get to women, older women, and
convince them that if they're not now, theyneed to figure out what is most important to
me.
What am I most upset about right now?
What would I most like to see a change in?And how can I make a difference in that thing,
(38:09):
even a tiny difference?A difference.
Just go out and make a difference and you'regoing to face pushback because you're old and
maybe you don't have any experience inwhatever it is, is important to you, but you
do have a lot of experience in doing somethingand you can make a difference.
Nan McKay (38:29):
And I think so much of it is mindset.
Sara Hart (38:32):
Yeah.
Nan McKay (38:33):
If you think you're old, you are.
Sara Hart (38:37):
Right.
Nan McKay (38:37):
If you think you can't do it, you can.
Sara Hart (38:41):
Right.
Nan McKay (38:41):
So we have to think about how we're being perceived.
I don't like to be treated like I'm old.
If somebody says, well, dear, calls me dear as
a salesperson, I'm like.
Sara Hart (38:58):
Yeah, flight attendant the other day called me honey.
Nan McKay (39:03):
Yeah, or honey or deer honey, mack them.
But it's not that you don't know you're old orthat you're not acknowledging the years.
I mean, the years are the years.
Sara Hart (39:18):
What it is.
Nan McKay (39:19):
What is, is.
But I think the thing that I hate most is for
someone assuming that I can't do somethingjust because I'm a certain age, I just don't
accept that.
I'm like, that's ridiculous.
But it's a mindset.
Sara Hart (39:41):
It is a mindset.
Nan McKay (39:42):
That's a mindset.
Sara Hart (39:43):
That's why the biggest hurdle, I think is internal for most of us, not for.
Nan McKay (39:48):
That's true.
I can sit back and say, well, yeah, I'm old.
This hurts and that hurts.
I better not go out and do this or that.
Well, what are you waiting for?Are you going to sit around and wait to die?
You might as well get out there and do whatyou can do while you can do it.
(40:08):
When you can't do it anymore, then don't doit.
But I'm not at that point exactly.
Right.
Well, we are breaking those molds, right?
Sara Hart (40:22):
Yes, we are.
Nan McKay (40:24):
Well lastly, we can't help but mention I think it's Mr. Boo.
Sara Hart (40:28):
Mr. Boo, oh Mr. Boo, my wonderful kitty cat.
Nan McKay (40:33):
And then how has having a pet influenced or enhanced your life and work and
think especially in the context of the themesthat you advocate for.
Sara Hart (40:47):
Right.
Well, this is somehow he's influenced my life.
This is a bookmark lessons I learned from Mr.
Boo, my cat.
So there are twelve life lessons here that hetaught me.
So that's one way he is 17.
That's old for a cat.
Nan McKay (41:08):
That is very old for a cat.
Sara Hart (41:10):
It's very old for a cat.
And he has a disease and it sort of affects
him but he doesn't know it does.
And so far as I can tell, he's not in pain.
He does everything he's ever done.
As far as I can tell he still enjoys life.
(41:33):
He loves to be combed, he loves to sit in thesun.
He sleeps most of the time.
I mean, who wouldn't like that?
And so I'm learning from him, in addition tomy twelve life lessons, that you can live any
way you want to at whatever it age it is, it'syour choice.
(41:59):
Now there are people who have big physicalproblems.
Yeah, that is definitely a given.
And I see those people, a lot of those people,
and it is still the case that how they live isa lot dependent on their attitude.
Nan McKay (42:21):
That's true.
And it's not accepting the consequences or not
the consequences.
I'm not saying it right, but it's not
accepting the negativity of what they're goingthrough any more than they have to.
Sara Hart (42:36):
Right?
Nan McKay (42:37):
Is that kind of it?
Sara Hart (42:38):
Yeah. I mean this is happening to me and I hate it.
It hurts or I can't do all this stuff anymoreor whatever it is.
I'm not saying that it doesn't affect me, butI'm going to get on with it anyway.
That's the way it is.
I'm going to live my life to the fullest, to
(43:00):
the extent I can.
And it may be very limited now as compared
with what I had hoped, but it is still what Ican do.
Nan McKay (43:09):
Well, tell our audience where they could get in touch with you, how they could
participate in what you're doing.
And are your books available on Amazon?
Sara Hart (43:21):
Yes, the two books, the prime spark women over 55, it's our time and the upside of
downsizing, getting to enough.
Both of those are available on the inside on
Amazon.
The first one isn't available anywhere
anymore.
Well, I've got a handful of copies on my
bookshelf, but you can't buy it anywhere.
(43:43):
The best way is, well, just get as much
information as you want about Prime Spark isto go to priwomen.com.
Nan McKay (43:53):
Okay.
Sara Hart (43:53):
Women.com, primesparkwomen.com.
That's got all the information.
And you can sign up there if you want to, tobe on the email list.
You'll get the newsletter that goes out once amonth, and that is about the only time will
bother you.
I don't send a lot of emails, so you don't
(44:14):
have to worry about getting bombarded.
If anybody wants to just get in touch with me,
then they should just send an email to me.
Sarah Hart S-A-R-A-H-A-R-T.
So both names are as simple as they can be atheartcom.
Hartcom.com.
So sarahhart@heartcom.com I named hartcom
(44:38):
before the.com era, so heart is my last nameand was communication, commitment and
community.
Nan McKay (44:46):
All right.
Sara Hart (44:48):
And then the.com era came in, so then it had to become hardcom.com.
So if talk about redundancy sarahcom.com.
Nan McKay (45:01):
Well, that sounds great.
Thank you so much.
It's been so much fun talking with you.
Is there anything else you'd like to add or
are you okay?
Sara Hart (45:09):
Thank you, Nan. I love your work.
Thank you.
And thank you for talking to this timetogether.
It was really fun.
Nan McKay (45:16):
Thank you.
Thanks for being with us.
Have you seen our new podcast and YouTubewebsite, trailblazersimpact.com?
Join us there and please leave a review oniTunes.
Check out our new shorts on our YouTubechannel, trailblazers impact interviews.
Until next time, check out my newsletter onLinkedIn.
(45:38):
Also, I host a new lead and succeed communityto quickly accelerate your leadership skills
and explore our regular website,namckayconnects.com, with new resources.
Are you an older woman with or without experience?
Looking for a spark in your prime years?Sarah Hart, an advocate for older women, is
here to give you tips on how to approach thisnext phase of your life.
She shares how she did it and how to valuewomen for their thought and accomplishments.
(00:27):
Welcome.
I'm Nan McKay, the voice behind trailblazers
impact.
Your beacon to extraordinary women
trailblazing unique paths.
Our podcast spotlights luminaries whose life
stories inspire and empower delivered to yourears bi weekly.
Buckle up for another episode packed withpowerful narratives and empowering journeys on
(00:50):
trailblazers impact.
Stay with us.
This is Nan McKay and today we are honored tobe in the company of Dr. Sarah Hart.
She's a dynamic change agent who's sparking atransformative movement aimed at redefining
how society perceives and interacts withsenior women.
(01:13):
With a rich tapestry of experiences spanningfrom leading training for a Fortune 100
company to championing women in technology,Sarah combines her vast experience with a
fierce dedication to uplifting senior women.
As we delve into our journey, the prime spark
(01:37):
movement and her insights on leadership, getready for a compelling conversation filled
with groundbreaking ideas and heartfeltwisdom.
So welcome, Sarah.
Sara Hart (01:51):
Thank you, Nana. I'm delighted to be here.
Nan McKay (01:54):
Sarah, could you start by sharing with us some of the inspiration and mission
behind your initiative, Prime Spark?And what was the catalyst that prompted you to
launch this movement?
Sara Hart (02:08):
I'd be happy to do that.
Nan.
I think that sort of the final straw was Ididn't get terrific treatment in a doctor's
office and it was because of my age, maybe mygender too, but certainly my age.
And I left and thought that can't keephappening.
That just can't keep happening.
(02:28):
Medical science is not paying attention to
women very much, period, and certainly not toolder women.
And that's not okay.
So at that point, I was working with a coach
and I said, okay, I know what I want to donext.
I want to work with and on behalf of olderwomen.
And she said, oh, your golden years.
(02:52):
And I said, oh, no, not your golden years.
I want to work with women in their prime, intheir fifty s, sixty s, seventy s, eighty s,
and I want to help them find that spark deepinside that will ignite them into the next
(03:13):
period of their life.
That's interesting.
That spark in the prime of their lives.
That's their prime spark.
And that's where it came from.
Nan McKay (03:24):
Well, you have an impressive background in leadership development and
you've held significant roles in majorcorporations and institutions.
How have these experiences informed?Or maybe shaped your perspective on the
treatment of senior women in the professionalworld.
Sara Hart (03:45):
Oh, man.
When I first started, and we're talking about
a lot of years ago now, I was the only woman.
Oftentimes in meetings that I went to, and I
was in HR.
And so this is significant.
As time passed, there certainly were morewomen.
(04:08):
I was in an organization that was thesciences.
And so we were talking about chemists andbiologists and it people.
And so more and more women were hired.
But initially there just weren't very many
women.
And many times I would go to meetings,
(04:31):
professional meetings outside of work, ormeetings with the company in other locations
and so forth.
There would be a room full of men and me.
And I was never mistreated, but I never reallyfelt part of it either.
(04:53):
And this was way before we had anyconsciousness about this.
I didn't realize how much not a part of thegroups.
I felt they would play poker.
I don't like to play poker.
They would go to the bar.
I'm not a big bar person.
(05:13):
They would go out for golf, and I can hit theball, but I'm not a very good golf player.
I think a lot of that time actually was prettylonely, but we didn't really think about it
then.
And as I say, I was never mistreated.
(05:34):
But one of the things I want is for women toalways feel part of the group they're in,
always listened to, paid attention to.
If they're saying something, that's worth
listening to.
But the number of times that I have observed,
and everybody talks about this, but it's true.
(05:55):
I've seen it so many times in a meeting, a
woman will say something and nobody will payvery much attention.
And then a man will say pretty much the samething and it's, oh, what a good idea.
And that gets more so with age.
And I think that that is getting worse because
(06:17):
I've talked to young women now, for me, youngwomen in their forty s, and they feel
sometimes belittled because of their age.
So in their 40s, let alone their fifty s,
sixty s, seventy s. And so that's just notokay.
(06:38):
It's not okay for the women, and it's not okayfor the organization, because the organization
is losing so much potentially fantasticinformation and knowledge and experience.
And at a time when organizations can't findenough workers, here are all these experienced
(07:01):
older people, men and women.
But women bore the brunt of the layoffs during
COVID and are bearing the brunt of not beingable to get back in.
And this is all not okay.
And so I have a long history of watching what
happens inside organizations, and I can seethis so clearly, and that's got to change.
Nan McKay (07:26):
I know exactly what you mean, because, of course, I have sometimes felt the
same way.
Let's turn it this way so we can kind of talk
to each other about this.
I think you're right in that I think it's
worse as women get older because we are notonly facing the gender types of
(07:53):
discrimination, in a sense, ignoring us, whichis, in a sense, discrimination, but we also
are fighting.
Sara Hart (08:05):
Almost.
Nan McKay (08:05):
Like we're being invalidated.
Is that the word?
The right word?
Sara Hart (08:11):
Yeah, it's very much the right word.
Nan McKay (08:13):
And the question is not whether it's happened that much before and we've
overcome it.
The question is really what's happening today?
And do you feel like perhaps we're going backto where we were to some degree?
Sara Hart (08:27):
That's an interesting question, man, because as many of us did, I went through
the women's movement and the years after that,and until the last, say, five to ten years, I
have felt that we were making progress.
We weren't there, but I have felt we were
making progress.
(08:48):
But I do feel at this point that we're sort of
going backwards.
And I don't know that we'll be back to the
50s, twirling around in our kitchen and ourkrenlins, happy with our refrigerator.
I don't think we'll go back to that.
(09:08):
But I do think that in this very difficult
time we're living in, women's rights are beingtaken away and being ignored to an extent that
I don't think it was true before.
Nan McKay (09:27):
Do you also feel that women are viewed more and more and accepting the view as
social objects?In a sense, as sexual objects, I should say,
in the sense of the clothes, the high heels,the emphasis on looking sexy.
(09:52):
Do you think that it's hard to have that imageand also be taken seriously in the boardroom?
Sara Hart (09:59):
Well, I don't know.
That is how younger, successful women look
now.
And when I think sort of what you just said, I
think I'm out of date.
I am out of date.
So I don't know.
I don't think from what you just said, in a
sense, it's making the belittling or theignoring or the discounting.
(10:25):
Our fault.
Nan McKay (10:28):
Some piece of it, if you buy into it, perhaps that's true.
Sara Hart (10:37):
If I wear sexier clothes and very high heels, it's my fault if I'm not taken
seriously.
Really.
I don't know that that follows.
Nan McKay (10:48):
It shouldn't.
It really shouldn't.
I don't know that I want to link it thattightly.
I think it's more the feeling that we have theprojection of the image of what will be
success if we do such and such.
And it seems like it's a lot wrapped up in how
(11:12):
women look.
Not how they think, not how smart they are,
not how good ideas they are, but the factor ofimpressions and the factor of how people are
taken seriously or not, I think somehow isimpacted.
(11:34):
Maybe I'm wrong.
I don't know.
Sara Hart (11:36):
Yeah, I don't know.
Unquestionably, in my opinion, unquestionably,
women are from a very early age, rewarded forhow they look, how they dress, whether or not
they're sexy, all of that.
We know all that.
(11:58):
We know all that.
And so my concern is when that all starts to
fade, then how much a woman in the workforceis worth begins to fade.
Nan McKay (12:13):
That's an interesting point.
Sara Hart (12:14):
That's the part that concerns me.
So when I get to the point of my hair starts
getting a little gray, I'm probably inmenopause because I have these sweats and
everybody can see what's happening to me.
Things that didn't used to be saggy are
starting to get a little saggy.
(12:36):
You wouldn't call me sexy anymore.
I can't even have babies.
What am I worth?
So if a woman, so much of a woman's worth istied up with how she looks, then when all of
that starts to fade, so does the worth of thewoman in a lot of people's eyes.
(12:57):
That's what concerns me.
Nan McKay (12:59):
Yeah, that's a really interesting perspective.
Because on one hand, women should have theright to look any way they want.
And if they feel that society is saying thatthis, whatever that is, looks good, then I
should have the right to be able to look likethat if I want to.
I think what we're talking about, one thingwe're talking about are the consequences of
(13:25):
the action or the reason for it or what'sprecipitating it over here.
And the result over here being as you age, ifthat's the value that you were put, that was
placed on you for any reason, is that stillthe same value that you're going to get when
(13:48):
you lose that exterior shell?
Sara Hart (13:51):
And I think in many cases now, the answer is no. And I think back when I was in
corporate and in the time that I was there,some friends of mine and I laugh about this
and bemoan the days we got up and put onpantyhose and a shirt and jacket and a little
(14:20):
tie.
And the more we looked like the men that we
worked with, the easier it was to be in theworkplace.
Nan McKay (14:30):
And that was a costume in a way.
Sara Hart (14:32):
That was the costume.
Nan McKay (14:34):
And maybe what people are saying today is, well, that's the costume.
But I think it's hard to be taken seriouslysometimes if that perception is there on this
side, because people should be valued fortheir mind and their actions and their
accomplishments, and I don't know that we havethat freedom.
(14:58):
Do you think we do?
Sara Hart (15:01):
Well, huge.
Across the board.
No, I don't think so.
I think that's also true for men, but it's
much more true for women.
And, Nan, just to get back to what we were
talking about before, I think that when I wasworking, the expectation were that I would
(15:22):
dress the way I just described.
I think the expectation for how younger,
successful women dress now is different.
I don't know if they're perceived to be
dressing overly sexy, and so how should Ivalue her or if that is what.
That's the dress expectation now, as comparedwith a little jacket, a shirt and a tie,
(15:47):
that's the costume.
Nan McKay (15:48):
Maybe today.
Yeah, it could very well be.
Sara Hart (15:52):
Yeah, I wonder about that.
I mean, I think every once in a while, when I
get my knickers in, a real twist about howmuch time everybody's spending on their cell
phone or think, and then, you know, peoplearen't going to be able to have face to face
communication, and they don't understand that.
And why can't they even write cursive?
And on and on and on.
I think.
(16:12):
Sarah, get a grip.
Nan McKay (16:17):
Well, let's talk about this thinking.
Know, we've said people should be valued fortheir thoughts and their accomplishments, and
the idea of creating thinking environments isreally quite intriguing.
Could you elaborate on what this entails foryou and how it's really crucial in today's
(16:39):
fast paced society?
Sara Hart (16:41):
Yes, ma'am.
Thank you.
Yeah, I do a lot of thinking environment work,and if anybody is interested in that, you
should look at the website timethink.com.
The work was developed by a woman in the UK.
She's american, but she married a british manand lives there.
And it's brilliant work.
(17:02):
The basis of the work is any action we take is
only as good as the thinking we do before,which sounds like a duh, but in our fast paced
world, how many times do we sit down andreally think through what we're about to do?
Not very often.
We just do it.
And in my work with teams and organizations,which I don't do very much anymore, but it
(17:25):
used to be, I used to watch over and over andover again.
We don't have time to do all that, Sarah, butthey have time to do it over and over and over
when it didn't work.
When it didn't work.
So that's the basis of it.
The idea is to help people think really well
and for themselves.
(17:48):
What do you really think about this?
I am biased by this work, of course, but Icannot think of a time in history, in my
history, when we more needed people thinkingfor themselves.
And so I think the work is so important rightnow.
And what we have found is, if that's soimportant, if thinking really well and for
(18:14):
yourself is so important, how do we helppeople think really well?
I wasn't taught to think.
I was taught to speak, I was taught to write,
I was taught to do things, but I wasn't reallytaught to think.
And so what we have found is that one of themain things that determines how well somebody
(18:34):
thinks is how they're treated while they'rethinking.
So is there good attention?Is there equality?
Is there a felt equality?Is there appreciation?
So there are ten of those, we call themcomponents in a thinking environment.
And if some of those are present, thinkingwill be better.
(18:56):
If they're all present, thinking will beabsolutely as good as it can be.
So when we learn these, the processes, welearn to give really good attention, to give
appreciation, to demonstrate equality with allof the components and the work sounds very
(19:20):
simplistic, and it is very hard for most of usto do because when the thinking environment,
we never interrupt.
And if we think about most conversations, we
are interrupted all the time.
I don't mean to pick on them, but a lot of
studies have been done on interactions withdoctors, medical doctors.
(19:45):
And then when they're asked, how long do youlet a patient talk before you interrupt?
They'll say several minutes.
I let them talk.
I want to hear what they.
And when it's measured, the actual time is
something like 12 seconds.
And so if you really want somebody to think
for themselves, you can't interrupt.
(20:07):
You can't even ask really good questions,
because even really good questions areguiding.
And so in the thinking environment, we don'task questions.
The only question we ever ask is, what do youwant to think about and what are your
thoughts?And then what more do you think or feel or
want to say?
Nan McKay (20:26):
So would you say it's strategic thinking, or would you label it in any way or
just.
Sara Hart (20:33):
It'S your individual best thinking.
And whether it's strategic or creative or
something else sort of depends on what youwant to think about.
I want to think about the strategy for thenext team meeting, or I want to think about
coming up with a really creative idea for theproject.
(20:54):
So the kind of thinking, as I say, I think,sort of depends on what the person wants to
think about.
Nan McKay (21:02):
Good point.
Sara Hart (21:03):
They are invited to think about anything they want.
Nan McKay (21:05):
Well, your role as executive director of the Institute for Women in
Technology, it must have provided some realunique insights.
Can you share some of those challenges andsuccesses that you encountered in advocating
for women in such a male dominated field?
Sara Hart (21:23):
Yeah, I mean, that was one of the real focuses of the institute was to try to
get more women in technology.
And that has been a goal for years, and it's
(21:44):
not changed.
It's unchanged.
The numbers don't change, and the.
And the effort that goes into it goes up and
up and up and up, and the numbers don'tchange.
So, anyway, we won't get into that.
Well, it was sort of a securitist route that
it took to my being the executive director ofthat institute, because brilliant woman Anita
(22:09):
Borg was the founder of the institute.
She was one of the very first top women in it,
and she was wonderful, wonderful woman.
She started the Institute for Women and
Technology, and she hired me, actually, tocome in, and she wanted the institute and all
the work to be a thinking environment.
(22:30):
So that's why I started working with the
institute.
And then, very sadly, she died.
And before she died, asked me if I would bethe executive director, and I didn't want to
do it, but I couldn't say no, so I did it.
It was hard because I'm not a technical woman,
(22:52):
and all of the women in the institute weretechnical women.
And then there's me, and I'm not a technicalwoman.
I know how to turn on the computer, but if itdoesn't happen, I don't know what to do.
And so it was really hard, and I saw myself assort of an interim because I knew that we
(23:15):
didn't want this permanently.
One of the things that was most fun was that
we had workshops for college age women allover the United States.
And so we went to big universities all overthe United States, and we had workshops using
the thinking environment with women who are invery beginning of their it career.
(23:46):
And so in the workshop would be these women.
There would be administrators, women
administrators, and faculty from the collegeor university, and then there would be women
from the community, some group would bechosen.
And in one case there was like a batteredwomen's shelter.
In another case it was disabled people,handicapped people.
(24:13):
There was some group chosen, and they wouldcome and they would talk about what kind of
technology would be helpful to them, becauseour goal was to not make it faster, cuter,
with more bells and whistles, but to make ituseful.
And to make it useful, we needed to know whatthey wanted.
(24:36):
So we would have all these wonderful ideas,and we would decide on through a whole process
of using thinking environment, we would decideon three.
And then the young women students would takethose back to their course for the semester
and design them.
And so, for example, one of the things that
(24:59):
they designed was an automatic vacuum cleaner.
Way before that.
Whatever you call that thing is now that thingthat runs around by itself and scares cats.
Yeah, they thought that a long time.
This was years ago when they came up with that
in the handicapped group, one of the thingsthey thought of, for example, had worked on
(25:25):
was having jackets with heaters because theirjoints hurt, especially in the cold.
So there'd be heaters.
So it was all sorts of stuff.
And it was really fun.
And it was helpful because we actually
designed and built things that worked.
(25:47):
So that was probably the most rewarding part
of being there.
I just loved it.
It was not rewarding, not seeing the numbersfor women in technology go up, but this work
was very rewarding.
Nan McKay (26:05):
Well, it sounds like it was.
And you do see women making strides today.
I've got several that I've interviewed on thepodcast and YouTube channel Kitty Cheney Reid
comes to my mind.
But we still need more.
We still need more.
As an author of three books, three.
(26:27):
Could you give our listeners a glimpse intothe core themes that you explore in your
writings and kind of, what do you hope readerstake away from your work?
Sara Hart (26:38):
Oh, thank you, Nan. The first book was I wrote years ago, and it's out of print
now, but it was introduction to interpersonalcommunication, and it was really a fun book to
write because it had a lot of pictures thatshowed body language and people in settings
and so forth.
And that book, my intention, I really wanted.
(27:00):
Well, I had been asked to write that book forthe communication 101 in one of the
universities in New York.
And so it was meant to be the beginning
textbook, but it was really fun, and I wantedit to be a fun book that students would learn
a lot from and have fun with.
(27:21):
I wanted them to learn a lot and have fun with
it.
The second book I wrote is the upside of
downsizing, getting to enough.
I went through a major downsizing of my home
six years ago now.
And it was hard.
It was really painful.
So I started writing about it, thinking maybe
(27:42):
that could help.
And while I was writing, I thought, well,
maybe this would be helpful to other peoplebecause it's about the emotional side of
downsizing your home, not the practicality.
So it doesn't talk about box this up and take
it here and box this up and take it here.
It talks about what does it feel like to get
(28:03):
rid of things you've had for many years anddon't have any street value, but have deep
intrinsic value.
They may be things that were in your family.
I had some things, for example, that my motherhad made.
I ended up with all the family pictures and Icouldn't take them all, and so I had to throw
(28:26):
most of them away.
And so it's a book that really, I hope helps
people when they're downsizing their homebecause it's painful.
I've done a lot of book readings, and I knowthat a lot of people who are getting ready for
a major downsizing have been in their homes30, 40, 50 years, and they have accumulated so
(28:49):
much and so much stuff that's valuable tothem.
That's hard.
My third book is Prime Spark women over 55.
It's our time and it's a workbook.
It has 30 questions.
And the best way to use that book, I think, isto get a group of women together and go
(29:11):
through a chapter a week, however often youmeet, and there are five questions in six
chapters.
So meet for six weeks, use each chapter and
have each woman answer the question forherself and then come and discuss it.
Nan McKay (29:29):
That sounds like a great idea.
I totally agree with you.
And I think there's another aspect of thistoo.
On your second book, when you're talking aboutdownsizing, part of the angst, I think, or
sadness or, I'm not sure what you'd call itthat a lot of us, I think of today is these
(29:52):
things that we valued so much, nobody wants.
Sara Hart (29:56):
Right?
Nan McKay (29:57):
I think, for instance, in my way back growing up years, Lennox China was a big,
the, what was that thing called where you puteverything aside when you were going to get
hope chest?That's what it was.
You had the hope chest.
But no one could imagine.
(30:18):
I mean, what you did was embroiderpillowcases.
No one could imagine that you would be gettingLennox China.
But every year for my birthday, I asked forone plate.
So I have some beautiful Lennox china.
I don't know what's going to happen to know
(30:39):
it's not anything.
But I valued it so much and it was costly.
But that doesn't seem to matter today becausepeople are like, I really don't have any room
for it.
I don't really entertain like that.
Sara Hart (30:56):
Right. Yeah. When I do my talks on the book, I say, if you're saving things for
your kids, don't.
Because they don't want your china, they don't
want your silver, they don't want yourcrystal, they don't want your linen.
They don't even want the table that it wenton.
(31:18):
And good luck getting rid of that stuff now.
Nan McKay (31:23):
Yeah, give it to goodwill.
And people just have to polish silver.
Are you kidding me?
Sara Hart (31:31):
Are you kidding? We have a totally different lifestyle now.
I mean, people just don't live that way.
In fact, people our age don't even live that
way.
I was just talking to someone before we came
on about how we used to go to each other'shouses all the time for dinner and somebody
(31:53):
would cook.
A big meal would be all set.
And I don't know if that stopped with COVID orif it had already stopped.
But most of the time now we agree to meet outand go.
Yeah.
Nan McKay (32:10):
I'm not sure it was Covid, although that could have been some of it.
I think it's just a more casual lifestyle.
Maybe that's a result of COVID as well, but a
casual lifestyle.
I mean, I still have the dining room, I still
have the hut.
I still have all my dishes in there.
And I like to have people.
I have.
(32:30):
So many of us have relocated, like, Irelocated from Arizona, where I used to do
that, and San Diego before that, where I usedto do that.
And now up here, a, I don't know anybody, andb, if you did that, it's almost like you'd set
the stage for them, maybe feeling that theyhad to do it in return.
(32:55):
And maybe they don't have that kind of stuffthat they've saved.
I don't know.
It just doesn't seem to be important to people
anymore.
Sara Hart (33:04):
I think the only time that it works, and I don't think it works, but last
year I decided for some reason, and please,the next time I decide this, somebody stopped
me, that I wanted to cook Thanksgiving dinner.
And so I spent the entire day and evening
(33:28):
cooking, clean, eating and cleaning up andputting away.
And it was fun.
But, oh, Lordy, if I ever do that again, I
hope somebody holds me off, because I used todo that and I don't want to do that.
That is exhausting and I don't think it's justthat I'm older.
(33:50):
It just seems like, look what I could havedone with all that time.
Nan McKay (33:56):
Well, it's little things like the china that you have may have a silver rim, and
we were taught not to put that in thedishwasher, that you had to do it by hand.
And besides that, it might break your china.
And it was $50 a plate.
You didn't dare do that, so therefore, youdon't use it as much because of that kind of
(34:17):
stuff, too.
Sara Hart (34:18):
I have to wash this by hand.
You're kidding.
Nan McKay (34:21):
You're kidding me.
The realm of coaching.
Let's talk about that a minute.
It's really vast and varied.
When you mentioned coaching women changeagents dedicated to bettering the world, what
specific challenges do you think that theymight face, and how do you tailor your
(34:46):
approach to address them?
Sara Hart (34:48):
That's a great question, man.
I think that for many of us, the major
challenge we face is internal.
Many of us buy into because it is omnipresent
in our society.
Buy into the fact that I'm too old to start
doing that kind of thing.
(35:08):
Who do I think I am?
I'm in my late 50s.
I'm in my 60s.
I'm in my 70s.
I'm in my 80s.
You're kidding me.
I can't do that.
I'm too old to do that.
The saddest thing I run into are women who
have spent lifetime as a homemaker taking careof a home and children and usually a spouse
(35:34):
and oftentimes an extended family.
They've taken care of the calendars, maybe
three or four calendars.
They have done everything.
They've been on countless boards andcommittees, and now they feel like they don't
have any skills.
And I think, look at what you've done.
Look at what you've organized and run.
(35:54):
Look at your financial ability.
Look at your team building.
So it's for women who have not been in the
workplace.
It's that for women who have been, it's a fear
of trying to do things outside theorganization.
I know when I left the organization, I'vebeen.
(36:16):
And I was terrified, because my whole life,I'd been taken care of by my parents, by the
college, by my graduate school, by theuniversity where I taught, by my employer for
all those years.
And now it's me.
Oh, my gosh.
And so the biggest hurdle initially, and it
can last, is internal.
(36:38):
And after that, one of the big hurdles is even
though, in my opinion, it's working for them,many women do not want to think or talk about
getting older.
I run into women who've gotten really mad at
me for wanting them to think about what it'slike being an older woman.
(37:03):
I don't want to be an older woman.
I'm not going to be.
Well, I suppose then you want to die.
I try not to say that, but if I'm being sort
of naughty, I will say that.
So you run into women who don't want to think
about it.
You run into women who think they don't have
any skills.
(37:23):
You run into a society that thinks that you're
worthless, that you're old.
You're doing what?
And so the hurdles are many, many.
But they're worth facing, because there's
never been a time when women's older, women'swisdom, experience and skills is more needed
(37:48):
than right now.
And we have to get to women, older women, and
convince them that if they're not now, theyneed to figure out what is most important to
me.
What am I most upset about right now?
What would I most like to see a change in?And how can I make a difference in that thing,
(38:09):
even a tiny difference?A difference.
Just go out and make a difference and you'regoing to face pushback because you're old and
maybe you don't have any experience inwhatever it is, is important to you, but you
do have a lot of experience in doing somethingand you can make a difference.
Nan McKay (38:29):
And I think so much of it is mindset.
Sara Hart (38:32):
Yeah.
Nan McKay (38:33):
If you think you're old, you are.
Sara Hart (38:37):
Right.
Nan McKay (38:37):
If you think you can't do it, you can.
Sara Hart (38:41):
Right.
Nan McKay (38:41):
So we have to think about how we're being perceived.
I don't like to be treated like I'm old.
If somebody says, well, dear, calls me dear as
a salesperson, I'm like.
Sara Hart (38:58):
Yeah, flight attendant the other day called me honey.
Nan McKay (39:03):
Yeah, or honey or deer honey, mack them.
But it's not that you don't know you're old orthat you're not acknowledging the years.
I mean, the years are the years.
Sara Hart (39:18):
What it is.
Nan McKay (39:19):
What is, is.
But I think the thing that I hate most is for
someone assuming that I can't do somethingjust because I'm a certain age, I just don't
accept that.
I'm like, that's ridiculous.
But it's a mindset.
Sara Hart (39:41):
It is a mindset.
Nan McKay (39:42):
That's a mindset.
Sara Hart (39:43):
That's why the biggest hurdle, I think is internal for most of us, not for.
Nan McKay (39:48):
That's true.
I can sit back and say, well, yeah, I'm old.
This hurts and that hurts.
I better not go out and do this or that.
Well, what are you waiting for?Are you going to sit around and wait to die?
You might as well get out there and do whatyou can do while you can do it.
(40:08):
When you can't do it anymore, then don't doit.
But I'm not at that point exactly.
Right.
Well, we are breaking those molds, right?
Sara Hart (40:22):
Yes, we are.
Nan McKay (40:24):
Well lastly, we can't help but mention I think it's Mr. Boo.
Sara Hart (40:28):
Mr. Boo, oh Mr. Boo, my wonderful kitty cat.
Nan McKay (40:33):
And then how has having a pet influenced or enhanced your life and work and
think especially in the context of the themesthat you advocate for.
Sara Hart (40:47):
Right.
Well, this is somehow he's influenced my life.
This is a bookmark lessons I learned from Mr.
Boo, my cat.
So there are twelve life lessons here that hetaught me.
So that's one way he is 17.
That's old for a cat.
Nan McKay (41:08):
That is very old for a cat.
Sara Hart (41:10):
It's very old for a cat.
And he has a disease and it sort of affects
him but he doesn't know it does.
And so far as I can tell, he's not in pain.
He does everything he's ever done.
As far as I can tell he still enjoys life.
(41:33):
He loves to be combed, he loves to sit in thesun.
He sleeps most of the time.
I mean, who wouldn't like that?
And so I'm learning from him, in addition tomy twelve life lessons, that you can live any
way you want to at whatever it age it is, it'syour choice.
(41:59):
Now there are people who have big physicalproblems.
Yeah, that is definitely a given.
And I see those people, a lot of those people,
and it is still the case that how they live isa lot dependent on their attitude.
Nan McKay (42:21):
That's true.
And it's not accepting the consequences or not
the consequences.
I'm not saying it right, but it's not
accepting the negativity of what they're goingthrough any more than they have to.
Sara Hart (42:36):
Right?
Nan McKay (42:37):
Is that kind of it?
Sara Hart (42:38):
Yeah. I mean this is happening to me and I hate it.
It hurts or I can't do all this stuff anymoreor whatever it is.
I'm not saying that it doesn't affect me, butI'm going to get on with it anyway.
That's the way it is.
I'm going to live my life to the fullest, to
(43:00):
the extent I can.
And it may be very limited now as compared
with what I had hoped, but it is still what Ican do.
Nan McKay (43:09):
Well, tell our audience where they could get in touch with you, how they could
participate in what you're doing.
And are your books available on Amazon?
Sara Hart (43:21):
Yes, the two books, the prime spark women over 55, it's our time and the upside of
downsizing, getting to enough.
Both of those are available on the inside on
Amazon.
The first one isn't available anywhere
anymore.
Well, I've got a handful of copies on my
bookshelf, but you can't buy it anywhere.
(43:43):
The best way is, well, just get as much
information as you want about Prime Spark isto go to priwomen.com.
Nan McKay (43:53):
Okay.
Sara Hart (43:53):
Women.com, primesparkwomen.com.
That's got all the information.
And you can sign up there if you want to, tobe on the email list.
You'll get the newsletter that goes out once amonth, and that is about the only time will
bother you.
I don't send a lot of emails, so you don't
(44:14):
have to worry about getting bombarded.
If anybody wants to just get in touch with me,
then they should just send an email to me.
Sarah Hart S-A-R-A-H-A-R-T.
So both names are as simple as they can be atheartcom.
Hartcom.com.
So sarahhart@heartcom.com I named hartcom
(44:38):
before the.com era, so heart is my last nameand was communication, commitment and
community.
Nan McKay (44:46):
All right.
Sara Hart (44:48):
And then the.com era came in, so then it had to become hardcom.com.
So if talk about redundancy sarahcom.com.
Nan McKay (45:01):
Well, that sounds great.
Thank you so much.
It's been so much fun talking with you.
Is there anything else you'd like to add or
are you okay?
Sara Hart (45:09):
Thank you, Nan. I love your work.
Thank you.
And thank you for talking to this timetogether.
It was really fun.
Nan McKay (45:16):
Thank you.
Thanks for being with us.
Have you seen our new podcast and YouTubewebsite, trailblazersimpact.com?
Join us there and please leave a review oniTunes.
Check out our new shorts on our YouTubechannel, trailblazers impact interviews.
Until next time, check out my newsletter onLinkedIn.
(45:38):
Also, I host a new lead and succeed communityto quickly accelerate your leadership skills
and explore our regular website,namckayconnects.com, with new resources.
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