July 21, 2025 • 53 mins
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What is your worth when trauma strips away your identity? Dr. Saloni Surah takes us on a raw, unflinching journey through workplace bullying, stalking, and PTSD that ultimately transformed her understanding of self-value. This powerful episode illuminates the hidden epidemic of workplace bullying in high-pressure environments like medicine, where hierarchical structures and cultural expectations of resilience can normalize toxic behaviors. Saloni's insights reveal how bullying often stems from perpetrators' own insecurities, creating cycles of toxic behavior that institutions are reluctant to address.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Josh Porthouse (00:00):
The views expressed in this podcast are
solely those of the podcast hostand guest and do not
necessarily represent those ofour distribution partners,
supporting businessrelationships or supported
audience.
Welcome to Transacting Value,where we talk about practical
(00:22):
applications for instigatingself-worth when dealing with
each other and even withinourselves, where we foster a
podcast listening experiencethat lets you hear the power of
a value system for managingburnout, establishing boundaries
, fostering community andfinding identity.
My name is Josh Porthouse, I'myour host and we are redefining
sovereignty of character.
(00:42):
This is why values still holdvalue.
This is Transacting Value.
Saloni Surah (00:49):
I can forgive, but I can't forget.
I can't sit here, across thetable from you, planning
services and doing the changethat you wanted me to do, but
you didn't support me in.
Josh Porthouse (01:02):
Today on Transacting Value.
What is your worth?
How do you measure it when youhave a stalker, when you're
bullied, when you have all sortsof traumatic experiences that
make you question you, youridentity and your own role in
life and in society?
Today we're talking with authorand eye movement and
(01:24):
desensitization reprocessingtherapist, dr Saloni Sarra.
All about it, her experienceand her insight in how to
overcome some of these traumaticsituations and regain your
self-worth in the process.
I'm Josh Porthouse, I'm yourhost and from SDYT Media, this
is Transacting Value.
Saloni, how are you doing?
Saloni Surah (01:46):
I'm good thanks.
How are you?
Josh Porthouse (01:48):
I'm doing well.
I appreciate you taking sometime out of your day, or well
out of your evening, and comingonto the show, so thank you for
the opportunity.
Saloni Surah (01:57):
You're welcome.
Thank you for having me.
Josh Porthouse (01:59):
Absolutely.
Now you have, in my opinion, apretty extreme case of reality,
right Like.
You've been through some stuffthat I don't think many people
have or wish they can, and,unwitting, it sounds like it
just happened to happen.
(02:19):
So let's set the stage a littlebit for everybody who's tuning
into the conversation and who'swatching this.
That, I think, is an importantstep before we dive into
anything in too great a detail.
So in the next couple ofminutes, who are you, where are
you from and what sort of thingsare shaping your perspective on
life now?
Saloni Surah (02:38):
I am a former senior medic, so I was a HIV
sexual health physician at thattime, working in Dublin.
I had a PhD in HIV and drug use.
I my life was very definedaround medicine.
You know, I'm Asian, I live inthe UK, I was living in Ireland
and it's very much aboutachieving and doing and you know
, being a doctor let's let's notpretend and unfortunately
(03:00):
there's quite a bit of sexism inthat but I enjoyed my job.
At that time I was coaching andwriting part time and yeah, it
happened.
You know, and it sounds crazynow because I've looked after a
lot of crazy.
I've gone into prisons, youknow, I've got stories that I
(03:21):
could just regale of my timeworking.
But I didn't think it couldhappen to me some of that and I
didn't realize for a long timethat I had PTSD and all the
things that have happened.
But I talk about it now becauseI want to share it, because it
is possible to come back and Isuppose it's got me to that
(03:43):
point of value and self-worthreally.
Josh Porthouse (03:47):
And when you say you worked in jails and there's
quite a lot of things that youcould regale you were in jail,
like in prison, or what do youmean?
Saloni Surah (03:56):
So we had a service that went out to the
prison service and I mean Ididn't run that.
I went out a couple of times.
As my PhD I ran a service forpeople with a history of drug
use in the methadone clinic.
So I used to go out.
I developed a clinic, then Iused to go out and run that.
In the crazy days there wasn'tany money so I used to go on the
(04:17):
bus with meds.
You know you did what you hadto to get things done, but you
know we had a lot of people fromall over the world, a lot of
people who had um been in andout, of you know, incarceration,
prison guards, um patients andwards there are.
There's a lot of stories.
Josh Porthouse (04:35):
You know a lot of crazy stuff, yeah and so,
aside from the successes and theachievement that you had,
obviously in that field andaspects of building your medical
career, did it actually impactyour personal life, your
professional life?
It sounds like that's whereeverything sort of started for
you, as a climax and as a shift.
Saloni Surah (04:56):
I don't think the patients did per se.
You look after individuals likethat.
It takes a toll and I had goneback as a senior clinician,
part-time, because I knewenergetically that I wanted to
do other stuff and that itactually made me a better doctor
.
Um, I think probably some of itwas childhood and I was unlucky
(05:19):
.
If I'm being honest with you,sometimes there's just an
element of luck or unluck inlife and I think I wasn't the
only person that has had thishappen to them in that workplace
or since by some of theindividuals concerned.
But you know, I was unlucky.
Josh Porthouse (05:39):
So what is the this that happened, or the
aspect of unluck that you'rereferring to?
Saloni Surah (05:47):
Well, I was quite badly bullied and it was quite
insidious and it went on forquite a long time Probably.
You know, as a doctor you havethis element of resilience and
putting up with stuff and Ithink part of that is that the
training is an element at timesquite bullying and kind of
humiliating, and you know, onceyou've worked so long to get to
(06:10):
that point, it's not so easy towalk away.
So, yeah, I was badly bullied.
It started really insidiouslyand it got quite extreme where I
had PTSD from an attemptedmediation that was basically a
verbal attack on me for an hourand I then got physically unwell
(06:33):
, which clearly were signs andsymptoms of PTSD.
So sleep issues, weight issues,chest pain, crying at work, work
eating a banana a day, I think.
At the extreme I was probablysleeping two, three hours of a
night, broken sleep, um, andthen I got stalked as well
(06:56):
online and physically and Icouldn't get anybody to take it
seriously.
So the suggestions from youknow, the guards or um
colleagues or employers was thatmaybe I had sent the letters or
that somebody else had done ita neighbor Because somebody had
started sending anonymousletters out about me to people
(07:16):
like my GP and my employer andmy union rep at the time and
they knew quite a level ofdetail about me rep at the time
and they knew quite a level ofdetail about me.
Josh Porthouse (07:27):
Well, okay, so when you, when you say bullying
it's not like I'm assumingtypical schoolyard push you into
the locker, knock books out ofyour hands, kind of thing no,
it's, you know, quite emotional.
Saloni Surah (07:39):
A lot of gaslighting by colleagues, um,
really insidious.
So you kind of felt like youimagined it.
You were being told that youwere making it up because you
were the more senior individual,that that couldn't be possible.
That individual was a totallydifferent person to the other
people than with me.
Now, I wasn't the only personin that workplace and, you know,
(08:01):
often you'll find withindividuals like this, there is
a pattern of behavior.
It's not just start somewhere,it's been going on in workplaces
or, you know, schools orfamilies.
But you know, my part of it wasextreme and the impact on me
was very extreme.
Josh Porthouse (08:20):
Yeah, was very extreme.
Yeah Well, I guess, in anyparticular environment where
this is taking place and I'malso bringing this up firsthand
not quite to the same extentyou're describing, and it was it
was high school in my case, um,and not necessarily since.
That, at least I've identified.
But I started to question am Imaking this up?
Am I just being paranoid?
(08:42):
I mean, did that happen, orwhat sort of questions were you
even asking yourself?
Saloni Surah (08:47):
Yeah, absolutely.
You know, it started quiteinnocuous and I remember and I
quote this a lot going to a talkby one of the governors, so the
chief, the person who ran oneof the big prisons in Dublin and
he was talking about bullyingat workplaces and he said you
know, if you're feelinguncomfortable, it's happening,
but it's often very challengingto delineate.
(09:08):
Do you know what I mean?
And people don't want to dealwith it.
Um, and that that wasabsolutely it.
Am I making this up?
I was being told that I wasbeing too much, that I had said
things, I had done things.
Uh, maybe I had sent theletters, you know, maybe I was
making that up that's reallyharming at the extreme.
(09:28):
I remember leaving occupationalhealth and I hated going there
because just going to theworkplace was traumatic.
They weren't a good doctor,they weren't really interested
in helping me and I was soparanoid.
I remember walking home adifferent way and there was a
shop there.
I remember pretending to gointo the shop and hiding because
there was a machine outside it.
So I pretended to go in, hidbehind the machine.
(09:50):
So if somebody was following methat maybe they thought I'd
gone in.
And you know.
Walking home then a totallydifferent way again.
So, yeah, it totally made meparanoid and you know who can
you trust?
Josh Porthouse (10:05):
Absolutely.
I mean mean, because at thatpoint it's tough to even trust
your own observations that Ithink that's an important aspect
as well, because what we'resaying here is that these aren't
people giving you criticism andfeedback that you're randomly
meeting on social media.
I mean, these are people thatyou trusted and that you worked
with and that you held in, Iassume, assume a relatively high
esteem.
You're all a bunch of doctors.
Saloni Surah (10:25):
Oh yeah, absolutely.
There are people I trusted,people I'd done my PhD
supervisors with.
I mean, one was a friend whowarned me at one point that I
was going to be scapegoated andthen started copying behavior,
because when behavior like thatgoes unchecked or is facilitated
or enabled by other people,then other people copy it.
The whole place becomesinhospitable, um, and really
(10:48):
unpleasant and destabilized.
Josh Porthouse (10:50):
and that is what happened in my workplace and
that's what happens in a lot ofworkplaces a lot of it gets
accepted, it's commonplace, it'sharmless, it's dismissed as not
a big deal or or whatever.
And, like the majority of myprofessional career has been in
the us marine corps, so in thedod, the department of defense,
I don't want to say that's thenorm, because that's not the
norm right, but there's sort ofmaybe romanticizing of those
(11:17):
behaviors can be put up with ityou know it makes you stronger,
there's something, what's wrongwith you.
Saloni Surah (11:23):
You're imagining it, just just grow up.
Or you know I remember youstronger, there's what's wrong
with you.
You're imagining it, just justgrow up.
Or you know I remember beingtold if you had a family it
wouldn't matter so much.
Or you know you can't changepeople and I was like I
understand, but you can makethem be responsible for the way
that they are, their behavior isand other people, because I
wasn't the only one.
You know there were otherpeople being targeted, there
were patients being complaining.
(11:46):
You know it wasn't an isolatedthing and that's often the case
with us, that it's not isolated,there's a pattern.
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Listen in on iheart radioodyssey and tune in it wasn't an
isolated thing.
Saloni Surah (12:16):
Um and that's often the case with us that it's
not isolated.
Josh Porthouse (12:20):
It there's a pattern and I think that's the
difference there, isn't it likeit is?
It is totally plausible, Ithink, to have this be sort of
your whatever joking might be atrivial word here, but but a
joking type atmosphere, likeit's just the culture of people
being people and whateverdegrees of maturity in the
workplace.
But I think when a lot of otherperspectives start to chime in,
(12:41):
it's not a single sourcereporting anymore now there's
corroboration, and I thinkthat's where the line starts to
push, uh, or the line of effortstarts to push a threshold, uh,
where you cross it.
So you get out of thatenvironment and you start moving
through.
And you wake up the next dayand you're like all right, I've
got a new job, a new place insociety, a new role, new
(13:03):
capacity, I'm, I'm better, orwhat happened?
Saloni Surah (13:06):
It took me a long time and I'm not like you know,
it's still steps.
So I had what was not a greatemployer, you know.
I think if you're in theprivate sector it's different.
But if you work in the publicsector and certainly you know
the US, is probably different.
But you know the uk and ireland, the health services, uh, you
(13:28):
know, inbred in a lot of places,inefficient, um, wasting money
and they don't want to deal withstuff and there is a culture of
bullying in a lot of workplacesso they don't deal with it.
So there was secondary bullying.
I had ptsd and didn't know andclearly in hindsight I did um,
it's obvious's obvious, butnobody mentioned it.
(13:48):
So it took me until my firstchild was born to get it
diagnosed, when I becameincredibly unwell and I actually
moved country when I was sevenmonths pregnant because I wasn't
safe.
And I look at it now goingclearly I have PTSD, but the
fact that nobody said it and Iwas seeing a psychiatrist and
maternity hospitals and stuff isa bit shocking.
So when my eldest was probablysix months old, I finally got it
(14:13):
diagnosed.
It took me another few monthsto get it treated and that
really transformed my life.
That treatment was called EMDRtherapy and that's a kind of
evidence-based tool for PTSD.
And from then I really startedto recover because up until that
point I was in fight or flight.
I was scared of everything,everything was going to go wrong
.
I just, you know, exhausted,you know wanted, you know wanted
(14:39):
to be a mom.
For a long time thought thiswas going to be my big break.
I was having much longer for achild, I'd got married, but you
know my mindset I was stillliving in fight or flight, like
I was being stalked and bullied,um.
So that therapy gave me my lifeback, um, and I started to
parent and feel better and putweight on and live again.
(14:59):
Um had another child and thenstarted to pick up my book.
So I've been writing for 13years, um, fiction books and you
know, because I've been so well, just hadn't been able to.
So picked up my books and whenmy second child was fairly young
, I self-published my first book, which is a girl detective book
, a funny sassy book.
(15:21):
I'm going to show it veryquickly.
I'm really proud of it.
But a funny sassy book, um,flora Investigates the Case of
the Missing Gold Eggs and it'sreally about a girl, you know.
So I wanted an inspiring rolemodel, healthy female role model
, but it was.
You know.
It's a girl who wants to be adetective, who wanted to hit the
big time, wasn't gettingemployed.
(15:41):
So she set up her own agencyand found her first case a
gold-eyed laying chicken hadgone missing and, you know,
solved it and flew on a boat andmet a lot of cats and met a
scary hunter, um.
And then I picked up mycoaching again as well and I
retrained.
So I went on and did my emdrtherapy training, um, and that
(16:03):
is eye movement reprocessing anddesensitization therapy and
it's one of the evidence-basedtherapies for PTSD.
Josh Porthouse (16:11):
Can you walk me through what that means, because
I'm picturing, follow my fingerand look at it.
Yeah, but what is okay?
So, as accurate as that mightbe, what is the correlation to
that and any sort ofpost-traumatic stress?
Saloni Surah (16:26):
yeah.
So when you have PTSD or trauma, the memories get stuck in the
wrong part of the brain, theyget put in the wrong place and
you end up reliving them and theyou know.
So that's what I was doing.
I was walking around, feelingscared the whole time, feeling
like I was going to be attacked,feeling like life wasn't safe,
people, people weren't listeningto me and, and you know, I
ended up with what was aterrible birth of my child.
(16:48):
So that you know, it's reallyquite incredible.
It is literally like you thinkabout the worst of the worst.
Obviously you work with atherapist, you work through it,
and it is following eyemovements, um, fingers or it's,
you know, um using hands.
It uses bilateral brainstimulation to reprocess those
memories and to desensitize thesomatic symptomology, and it
(17:14):
usually takes a few sessions towork, but it is.
You know, it was incredible inmy, in my case, like I went from
being seven and a half stonelooking at my, my child crying,
wanting to be dead, um, feelingterrible because I desperately I
love them, I wanted to be there, but I just was so traumatized.
Josh Porthouse (17:31):
Which is detached.
Saloni Surah (17:33):
Yeah, just, you know, I mean I, I, yes, probably
I was so traumatized that wasalso a traumatic birth because
of the PTSD and that that I,yeah, wasn't as emotional and
aware present as I would haveliked to have been and, um, you
know, I put weight on, I startto make plans for the future.
The fact that I published abook and that I'm talking to you
(17:57):
today is testament to that,because I wouldn't have been
able to do that because I was soscared after being stalked and
bullied.
So, you know, I've been onsocial media.
I do interviews, I share, Ipost, I talk about my books, I
talk about my coaching, I talkabout what's happened.
I couldn't have done thatbefore because I felt ashamed,
like I had done something wrong,like it was my fault and I was
(18:19):
still reliving it.
So that helped me to reprocessthat and go oh my goodness, a
really terrible thing happened.
But I'm not living anymore.
It was terrible.
I can talk about it.
I can talk and not cry and notbreak down.
I mean I had a blue dress thatI wore to that mediation and I
couldn't look at it for years.
It just triggered me.
Do you know what I I mean?
Just looking at that blue dressthat I'd worn to the mediation,
(18:41):
where I'd been so viciouslyattacked, it was just so
visceral that I I couldn't lookat it.
I've worn it, I wear it now.
Josh Porthouse (18:49):
I look at it and I'm like, okay, you know, it's
just a blue dress again when Iask you, uh, a question about I,
I guess maybe ego, uh, and thisis coming from a place of
curiosity, not judgment.
Okay, I'm not trying toantagonize the situation, but,
(19:09):
um, but I'm curious.
See, in my experience and inothers that I've talked to, the
defense or maybe counterpointhas been it's not bullying, like
you mentioned, you just got toget tougher, develop a thicker
skin, but then me being offendedis a me problem, right, which
(19:29):
is then more egotistical, Ithink, than not psychologically
speaking.
And so do you think bullying ingeneral is obviously there's
thresholds here, right, but doyou think bullying in general is
more of a psychological issuedue to ego and pride, and then,
(19:53):
once it becomes physical, itcrosses the line, or humiliating
it crosses the line, butinitially do you think it's
rooted in ego, that maybe thatis something we can work through
before it gets to that point?
Saloni Surah (20:03):
I think I mean it.
Why do people bully?
Usually because they don't feelgood about themselves.
I mean, let's be honest, solet's.
I mean I've done a lot ofthinking and a lot of work on
this.
You know, I also did a uhtraining on evolutionary
meditation, which is like avoice dialogue tapping thing.
But you know, if you stand back, why do people bully?
It's usually because they don'tfeel good about themselves and
(20:24):
because they've been bullied orthey feel so terrible or they're
jealous of somebody, so they dotheir best to make the that
person feel bad.
You know that that's the cruxof it.
Or they have behavioral issuesor personality issues.
Um, and I know, certainly inthis case there was a lot of
stuff being taken out on many ofus by the individual who had
(20:47):
maybe anger issues, rage issues,behavioral issues.
You know it'd been enabled andfacilitated.
And so I think you know, atmultiple points I said, you know
individuals need psychologicalsupport.
We can get people in, we canturn this around.
So I'm not somebody who goesright, there's a problem.
You're us, you're all not verygood.
I'm leaving.
I didn't want to do that, Ididn't want to not work, and
(21:10):
when I went off I said send meanywhere.
I've taught, taught in themedical schools, I've worked in
other hospitals.
I've been at which clinic?
I just cannot be here, and atthat point I had tried to get
people in, external people, inpsychologists, in.
They didn't want to do that.
That could have totally changedthe face of this, you know, and
even though you can't changepeople, you can make them
(21:30):
understand that their behavioris not acceptable.
But I think in the vastmajority of cases it's people
who don't feel good aboutthemselves so probably ego
problem who feel insecure.
You may feel threatened, um,and it manifests, as you know,
being a bully when really theyfeel small and scared, but
they're masking or hiding it, um, in this way I think it's often
(21:52):
, always or often quitting theact of bullying or the verbal
communication of bullying, wherethat results in what we're
defining as bullying.
Josh Porthouse (22:05):
Do you think it's always a witting endeavor,
like a conscious driven effort,or is it just more of like a
group think everybody's laughing, thinks it's funny, I'm going
to do it.
Saloni Surah (22:14):
So I think there's an element of both.
So I think, certainly for theindividual, in my case, I think
that the individual that wasdoing it, it was probably partly
conscious, because, you know,if we stand back, I think for a
lot of bullies they're notfeeling great and they want to
feel better, and taking someonedown is a great way to do that,
and then it becomes a groupthing where you know everyone
(22:35):
else is doing it, so I'll do it.
That was my.
Josh Porthouse (22:41):
I don't know if I can talk about talk about as
my experience, but that was myexperience of it.
Well, yeah, sure, sure, and Iguess that's an important point
to clarify too, that we're nottrying to blanket all aspects or
all scenarios that could beinvolved in bullying, just these
two that we're describing rightnow.
You know yours and maybe mine,but so if that's the case, then
how do we combat that degree ofinsecurity or maybe a lack of
(23:05):
self-awareness for people likethem or people that maybe fall
in this category as bullies?
And then, because oftentimesthat can just antagonize the
problem, yeah, so what's thebalance?
Saloni Surah (23:18):
So you know, I think a lot of it does come from
childhood or younger.
Um, in my case, you know I hadsaid so.
What can you do in a workplace?
It certainly what happenedwasn't great and had they have
done some of the stuff I'dsuggested, it might not have got
to that extreme level.
Um, you know, I suggested let'sget psychologists in.
People can be supported.
(23:39):
You know, for anger management,that kind of stuff needs to be
done and that can be done.
You know the whole workplace isstarting to turn.
Um, you know, let's try and nipthis in the bud and turn this
around, because that's what youwant.
Ultimately.
You don't want workplaces to belike that because you know
people are unhappy peopleunhappy or traumatized or, you
know, dreading going into work,they're not going to perform and
(24:01):
presumably nobody wants aworkplace like that and then
they go home and affect theirwork lives too, you know.
And then you know if you'retraumatized as a parent, then
it's hard not to take that homeand pass that on to your child
as well.
Do you know what I mean?
well, yeah, absolutely so youknow, I saw that so much with
sexual trauma, um, how thatpassed down onto children and
(24:22):
the impacts of that.
Um, you know, I think a lot ofit probably comes from childhood
and not feeling good enough.
Um, you know, and some of it ispersonality disorders.
So you're not going to be ableto change that.
Um, but you know, I think, evenif that is the case, just
further victimizing the victimor re-bullying them isn't really
the way to solve these issuesand all it does is it forces
(24:46):
good people out.
I think.
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Saloni Surah (25:46):
Further victimizing the victim or
re-bullying them isn't reallythe way to solve these issues,
and all it does is it forcesgood people out.
I think you know.
Josh Porthouse (25:52):
Yeah, sure, and I think a lot of times specific
to being in a workplace or acorporate environment.
It's systemic, it's not anindividual person more often
than not.
Right, occasionally you get abad hire or whatever, but yeah,
that kind of toxic environmenthappens.
So then, conversely, how do wefoster this atmosphere of
(26:13):
resilience and actual trainingor human intelligence or
personal development to combatagainst this?
Because, at least in my opinion, the only way you can do that
is with some degree of exposure.
Otherwise there's no basis toqualify anything.
Saloni Surah (26:30):
It's a really good question and I think it goes
back to, you know, the cultureand the workplaces.
And then you know, I think it'srecognizing I'm out of my depth
here.
I don't know what to do.
So if that person who had donethe mediation with me had gone
I'm totally out of that depth, Ishouldn't be doing this then a
lot of things would have beenaverted.
And then you know, people havegone.
(26:50):
I just don't know what to do.
Let's get people in.
So I think if it's gone to thatpoint you really don't know,
put your hands up and say Idon't know, and get people who
do know it.
And some people sometimes it'spsychological support, sometimes
it's training, sometimes it'scome on, guys, this has got out
of hand.
There's somebody hurt here, notbrushing it under the carpet,
(27:16):
because people get busy and it'smy job and I have a career and
money and obviously I understandall of that.
But when people are gettinghurt and it's being repeated
because you know I wasn't theonly one and I'm pretty sure
this has been repeated that'swhere you've got these patterns
of repeating this and where itgets more and more dangerous
because you know people have gotaway with it for so long.
So you know well what can I getaway with this time, or it just
(27:39):
gets out of hand.
Josh Porthouse (27:42):
Yeah, it definitely can.
It's obviously the strength innumbers or or the degree of
magnetism around the behavioraccumulates over time.
So there's also this stigma,though and again, this is not
specific to any particularworkplace but there's also this
stigma that if I bring this up,it's only going to get worse for
(28:03):
me before it gets better foreverybody else, and in some
cases that's true, but how do wemake that either more
manageable and palatable forwhoever these individuals are
that feel the need to bring thisup, or, systemically, in any
particular industry, address itso that that's not as much a
(28:24):
concern?
Saloni Surah (28:25):
and that's a really good question.
I don't think I have the fullanswer for that.
I mean, I think it is abouthaving, you know, leaders or
people in those higher positionsthat have emotional
intelligence or at least areopen to say look, I'm out of my
um depth here.
You know, I was like that as adoctor if I didn't know
something, I have no ego aboutgoing, I don't know what I'm
(28:46):
doing, I'm going to ask somebodyelse for advice or, you know,
run up against people.
Do you know what I mean?
I don't, I don't think it'sabout knowing all the answers,
but I think it's about knowingwhere the limitations are and
looking at those cultures andsystems.
And that takes time,unfortunately, but unfortunately
.
But I'm sure there's, you know,plenty of workplaces that are
doing it.
I mean, like I went to thistalk from, like I say, the
(29:06):
governor who was running MountDroid Prison, which is one of
the toughest prisons in Dublin,and he was talking about
workplaces.
So if he's talking about it andbullying workplaces, then you
know there are people doing itin really tough environments.
So it is possible.
Josh Porthouse (29:21):
Well, that's an important distinction too.
You were at a prison, so whenwe say workplace, this isn't
like a team of accountants.
Saloni Surah (29:29):
You know, the atmosphere and the tolerance is
still, I think, a bit higherthan a societal baseline already
so I mean you know, that wasactually a hospital, so I did I
mean, I sometimes did the prisonclinic, but that was in the
hospital where I was and and,unfortunately, a lot of
hospitals.
(29:50):
You know, um, I don't knowwhether you read the book adam k
, this is gonna hurt.
You know he talks about thatand has those two books about
how the medical system andtraining and the health service
is often quite bullyingenvironment and you know it's,
it's part of it learning byhumiliation.
Josh Porthouse (30:06):
Um, it's kind of set up in that way is that a
gender specific thing and, andmore just, sexist?
Or is it based on seniority andeducation level?
Saloni Surah (30:16):
and you're the new guy, I'm the senior student
it's a bit of seniority, it'sjust um hierarchical, it's just,
unfortunately, that's the wayit is, um which you know.
That's it.
The learning sometimes is aboutkind of humiliation you've got
it wrong and also, I suppose,probably like the military, it's
a high pressure, high stressenvironment.
People are sick, you know um,yeah, people are sick.
(30:41):
You're doing nights, you'redoing unsocial hours there's a
lot of sacrifice there, um, andagain, I don't really know how
that changes.
I I personally having access tohealth care more the last few
years, I've have found it a lotmore unpalatable than I expected
, um, with the way that I'vebeen spoken to and treated um
and family members, andcertainly it's not a way I would
(31:03):
have spoken to my patients, youknow, um.
You know, because I thinkeveryone deserves to be spoken
to, no matter where they comefrom and I'm very passionate
about that after the medicalcredit no matter where they've
come from, what they've donewith a bit of kindness and
dignity.
You know, unfortunately I thinkthat's got worse in the health
care but, um, in systems overall.
Josh Porthouse (31:24):
Um, you know, hopefully it's a new way of
doing business where we actuallycare for each other and and
recognize that being nice in theworkplace and treating
employees well gets more out ofthem, which is, you know, better
for everyone yeah, it's simpleas that it really is and, and
you're not far off the mark Ican't speak to, you know, the
british military, for example,or the royal marines even, but
(31:47):
at least in the us, and only inmy experience in the us marine
corps, that that has been apretty common vein where the
degree of training from anyindividual in a more senior
position, based on time or, youknow, by virtue of position and
meritocracy, generally comesfrom what I've considered now
(32:10):
more consistently as aninadequate leadership style, but
also a relatively discouragedability or style of
communication, because then itjust, it is effective and it
does get people's behaviors tochange, which is the goal.
And in a high-stressoccupational environment
(32:33):
medicine, military, whicheverthere has to be a certain degree
of detachment, I think, to beable to function in a high
stress environment so you're notas concerned with your own
wellbeing, for example, you'remore focused on somebody else's
Well.
That requires some detachmentand I think in that training
pipeline what tends to happenthen is a relative degree of
(32:55):
embarrassment along the way orwhatever.
I think the threshold and Ican't speak to medicine as an
industry, but in the Departmentof Defense at least I think the
threshold is building it back,the camaraderie around.
Yes, everybody went through it,but it's not sustainable in
that environment.
What it becomes then now is apoint of leverage as a common
(33:17):
point of reference to say that'swhat it feels like Now, you
know.
So here's how we build back,encourage some degree of
discipline or camaraderie orwhatever needs to happen as a
result.
In a sort of moreindividualistic sense, I think,
when we start to question ourpositions, like you mentioned in
yours, it's difficult tosustain that kind of growth in
(33:41):
any environment, even if it'sencouraged to build back and
develop resiliency or disciplineor whatever, and so my working
theory is that it gets rooted ina value system, I think, and
that gives us something we canlatch onto, because it's an
internally driven metric thatisn't required to be validated
by somebody else's opinions, andso this is a segment of the
(34:03):
show called developing character.
D D D, developing character.
Now it's two questions, and forclarity and full disclosure, as
vulnerable as you prefer youranswers to be, is totally cool,
but it's rooted in two timeperiods, because I think some of
this is nurture and I thinksome of this is nature, and so
(34:24):
my questions are what were someof your values growing up or
that you remember being exposedto as a child and then now being
older in life.
What are some of your valuesnow?
Saloni Surah (34:37):
You know it's a very funny one.
One of my colleagues would say,saloni, you've always got to do
the right thing.
It just crucifies you injustice.
And so I am somebody who isgoing to speak out and say, no,
this is making me uncomfortable,or no, I don't like where that
person's being spoken to.
Or you know, I've had argumentswith adopters.
When they've gone, you'repatients and I'm like what do
(34:57):
you mean?
My patients?
You know they may have HIVpatients.
And I'm like what do you mean?
My patients, you know they mayhave HIV.
They may be a prisoner.
They're still entitled to careand still entitled to be spoken
to.
Okay, but if that you know, ifthey're being rude or aggressive
or using, then they also needto know that's not unacceptable,
not acceptable.
Um, so I suppose those are myvalues.
Um, I think part of its natureand nurture.
(35:17):
So some of that I was inbredwith, but I've already already
touched on.
You know, I come from a familywhere there is inherent sexism
and there's a lot of stuff wedon't talk about.
And again, I won't do that.
So you know I'm not going tosit there and pretend there's
not domestic violence going onthere.
I'm not going to pretend thatI'm okay with it.
Do you know what I mean?
(35:38):
Even if that's the way it is?
So I think you're right.
I think it's a bit of both.
Josh Porthouse (35:43):
So what do you think is an effective mechanism
or option to maybe, at abaseline level, develop that
degree of awareness and realizeyou do have some control over
your perspective and youroutlook and your responses and
then, secondarily, do somethingabout it?
In the workplace or as anindividual well in an individual
(36:05):
in a workplace, but as anindividualized style of control
or a control point again.
Saloni Surah (36:11):
I think it partly does go back to the nature
nurture and it you know if we'retalking from a coaching point
of view is at what point you hitthat pain point and go.
I'm not putting up with thisanymore and you're either forced
to do something or, um, youknow you make that decision and
I'll be brutally honest to mysituation.
I was kind of forced because Ibecame so unwell.
(36:32):
I just couldn't physically doit anymore.
I think, again, it goes back tovalues and who you are.
So through all of this you knowall the stuff that happened to
me I kept on going.
There must be better.
You know I'm not going back andit would have been easier to
have gone back to my workplace.
I would be earning far moremoney, life would be a lot
(36:53):
easier.
But I was just like there's noway I can return to a workplace,
that this has happened, wherepeople have facilitated it, who
I trusted, where people havehurt me, where they made
accusations about me.
I just can't sit and look atyou.
I have a deep forgivenesspractice.
I have a deep spiritualpractice and I've done a lot of
forgiveness at multiple pointswhere I've literally worked
(37:14):
through everyone in my life andI can forgive, but I can't
forget.
I can't sit here across thetable from you planning services
, um, and doing the change thatyou wanted me to do, but you
didn't support me in.
Do you know what I mean?
Um, you know.
So part of it is I'm a squarein a circle hole because I see
(37:36):
things in different ways and I,you know, try to bring in change
and people don't like that.
Part of it's like my valuesystem is saying I'm just not
going to force myself back intosomewhere where it's really
unpleasant for me All right,folks sit tight and we'll be
right back on Transacting Value.
Josh Porthouse (37:55):
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On this episode of TransactingValue, licensed professional
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self-worth, healing and love.
What's most jarring, she didn'teven recognize the abuse while
(38:19):
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Through raw honesty and grace,Dana reveals how she
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Saloni Surah (38:40):
If you've ever questioned your value after
being torn down, this episodewill show you how to reclaim it
part of it's like my valuesystem is saying I'm just not
going to force myself back intosomewhere where it's really
unpleasant for me in standing onwhat it is, the uh, you know
view as our own worth or or ourown value, for example, in a
(39:00):
particular environment, it's alot easier than to identify.
Josh Porthouse (39:03):
I don't fit here the square in the round hole,
for example, yeah, but in doingthat, I think we still
individually owe it to ourselvesto be able to reconcile that,
like you said, I could be makingmore money, I could be doing
other things like thesepotential, uh, maybe other
success metrics now change.
(39:25):
So how do you make peace withthat degree of acceptance?
Saloni Surah (39:29):
it's been a long road.
You, I'll be honest, I did aFacebook post about grief being
a dirty word and how it was likea part of me had died.
I mean for me probably, likeyou, I started medicine when I
was like 16, 15.
All the stuff to get in thetraining, my friends, sacrifices
(39:50):
, getting and getting marriedolder, having children at a
later age, and how I lost it alland it, you know, it is like a
part of me died and I didn'tknow who I was and it.
There's been an awful lot ofgrief, of letting go, of
shedding of who am I, because myentire identity was tied up in
that.
(40:10):
You know part of that was, youknow, like you say, a job that,
like medicine, military, are allconsuming.
Part of that was kind of I wasexpected of me and you know, if
I'd had a different upbringing Imight have gone being more
creative at an earlier age, butthat wouldn't have been okay.
Um, you know it's not been theeasiest thing in the world.
You know I've done lot.
(40:30):
I do a lot of self-developmentand I'm working for it.
You know I did a lot of EMDR.
I've done a lot of coaching andwork on myself.
I write, which is reallyhealing.
And you know I talk because Ithink it's important to talk
about these things, and I'm notthe only one going through this.
(40:52):
There's plenty of other peopleout there who are going through
this.
Stories may be different, um,but you know grief comes in
different ways, um, you know,and asking for help and support,
but you know, it's not been theeasiest thing and I'm going to
be honest about that.
My life would be much easier.
I'd be in a much bigger house,um, things would be different.
It's like I've worked to get tothis point and I'm starting
(41:13):
again.
You know, uh, you know, with mywriting and coaching and, um,
you know it's great, but I notwhere I thought I would be, and
you know that's that's.
Josh Porthouse (41:25):
That's sort of the practical point about it too
, isn't it?
I mean professionally, maybestarting over maybe a new
industry relatively to, relativeto were, but personally you're
on a totally different level now.
You know what I mean, and allof the strength and acceptance
and ownership that you builtalong the way, in spite of the
vulnerability, and then theauthenticity now that you bring
(41:47):
into your practice and just itsounds like, into your daily
life as a result totally changes, I think, the entire equation.
I mean, it's not, it's notstarting back from zero.
You know, it's like a some sortof linear periodization where
all you've really done isdeloaded, you haven't reset, and
(42:08):
I think that's a superimportant distinction yeah,
thank you.
Saloni Surah (42:12):
I mean I, um, you know I wrote this really fun
book I have.
I've been trying to um my fairybook.
I've got a fairy book which isa middle grade book and it was
supposed to be a fun fairy book,you know, because fairies are
fun.
And then I realized I waswriting about fairies having
their wings clipped and then Iwas like, oh my god, this is my
bullying in here, you know, andforgiveness, and getting wings
(42:32):
back.
And you know, and I was like,but you know, in some way it
happens to us all at some pointin life that we get our wings
clipped off and by people thatwe love or we've trusted, and
how do we get that back and getour forgiveness back?
And I mentioned the Adam Kaybook.
Um, you know, about five yearsago I had started writing this
book about medical memoirs andsome of the challenges of you
(42:53):
know night shifts and you knowreally basic things about not
even being able to go to thetoilet and if you're a lady and
it's a certain time of the monthnot having time to take care of
things, and I just couldn'twrite it for a long time.
I picked it up again this yearand a book on bullying as well.
So I think also there's some ofthat into turning it, into
(43:16):
alchemising it, into helpingother people.
You know that's what I want todo that.
So you know I wrote a fun book,but it's a book about a girl
who has a dream and who's goingfor it a bit like me.
But I also looked after so manyadults who were literate and
who's going for it a bit like me.
But I also looked after so manyadults who were illiterate and
who couldn't read or write andyou know, when you're doing
quality of life questionnaireson them and substance misuse
(43:39):
questionnaires on them every sixmonths you get fairly quick at
asking them that but whoprobably grew up in homes where
they're working on sheets andneedles and probably nobody told
them that they were worthy andthey could do anything and, um,
you know generations ofsubstance abuse.
Josh Porthouse (43:56):
You know I wanted to inspire kids because
not every child has that that'sabsolutely true, and I think, in
that regard, maybe we're bothdoing the same thing, maybe a
different medium, yeah, um, butall things considered,
instigating self-worth, and so Iguess, for the sake of time, I
really have two other questionsfor you.
All of this being said, all ofthese experiences, what is it
(44:18):
actually done for your own senseof self and self-worth now as a
result?
Saloni Surah (44:27):
so the really funny thing is it's an awful lot
stronger.
I didn't think you know, I youknow, and also as a medic, you
give, you give, you give.
I didn't think deep down,probably, that I was worthy or
good enough, despite the successI'd had the phds, the exams all
that stuff um, and I, you know,I'm not the only one.
There's plenty of people in thatposition who feel like an
(44:49):
imposter.
Um, and now I'm like no, I knowmy worth, I would never go back
there.
And you know, I reclaimed mypower.
Um, you know, I live in a verydifferent house.
I married somebody who I didn'texpect I you know, on the
outset I would have gone no to10 years ago.
It was the best thing thathappened to me.
(45:09):
He made me laugh and you know,he was there for me and I'm
honest with him, I probablywouldn't have looked at him 10
years ago, which is you know,I'm being open about this which
is really sad, you know, becausehe was totally there, he made
me laugh and I've got two lovelychildren.
You know, I'd like a bit morebalance in my life career-wise.
(45:30):
Having reached that, to getback there again, um, but I'm
also coming out from a differentplace.
My mom now, and before it wasall about work.
Um, whilst I wanted that, youknow, it kind of took over and
and I knew when I went back atthe top level that I needed to
look at that.
Um, so, yeah, the irony is ithas brought me to that place of
self-worth, knowing that I amgood enough on my power, and
(45:52):
reclaiming that and being like,no, you know, having
conversations with people whowere part of this and saying
that that was not okay and youdid hurt me, and I know that
some of them have listened tosome of the podcasts I've done
and gone.
Josh Porthouse (46:05):
Oh, you know yeah, well, that's what it takes
sometimes.
Let me, I'm going to share thiswith you real quick.
This took me, oh, 15 years inthe marine corps to learn you
ready.
What do you call a combinationof acceptance and balance?
Saloni Surah (46:26):
I want to say sovereignty.
Sovereignty boundaries, likethat's something I've been
working a lot with issovereignty being sovereign.
Josh Porthouse (46:34):
I suppose it could be in a manner of speaking
, but harmony is the word that Ilearned it to be when you know,
empowering some degree ofcharacter, sovereignty, I think,
is the ultimate goal of anygrowth experience in the human
condition.
You know, trying to figure outyour place and then accepting
(46:57):
what you find out is trickybecause, like you said, it may
not be discovering what youexpect it's often not.
Saloni Surah (47:06):
I mean, you know, and that actually peace and
harmony and balance the thingsthat I've really been working on
these last three to six monthsof you know, sovereignty,
balance and harmony.
You know I am where I am andit's okay, and you know, for
here and now, everything is okay.
Josh Porthouse (47:24):
Well, I'm proud of you.
Congratulations.
Saloni Surah (47:27):
Thank you so much.
Josh Porthouse (47:28):
Absolutely.
I don't think it's a commonoccurrence, on one hand, to
learn that degree of acceptanceand, on the other hand, have a
total stranger say hey, good job.
Saloni Surah (47:37):
Thank you.
Yeah, no, it's not.
I don't get it very often, sothank you.
Josh Porthouse (47:41):
Yeah, but okay.
So my last question.
Then you talked about bothbooks.
You've talked about otherpodcasts.
So for anybody that wants toread the books, buy the books,
become a client, listen to theshows.
Where do people go?
Saloni Surah (47:52):
so my website is salonisuracom.
I am redoing the coaching bitbut by this time it's out it
will be up and ready.
Um, I'm on social mediasalonisura author and at saloni
book and flora investigates,which is the only book out at
the moment, is available topurchase through amazon.
So worldwide as an ebook andKindle book.
(48:13):
She's always looking to fly andfind new exciting readers.
And, yeah, I'm offering EMDRand I will be combining it with
belief coding, which for me, isthe next natural step with it.
So you know, clearing thetrauma and then recoding a new
beliefs, um, which I found verypowerful and big shifts in my
(48:34):
life the last few months, um,and I'm really excited about
that.
Josh Porthouse (48:38):
For me, it feels really wonderful being able to
come back and and do that forothers after what I've gone
through first off, I agree withyou and I think that there's a
one-way circuit, only one way,between or among cognition,
behavior, physical spaces andinformation, and then it resets
(48:58):
on cognition, behavior, physicalspaces, information, and it's
only one way.
That's it.
And when you're talking aboutfinding ways to work through or
shift a behavior pattern, youhave to start with the way
people view themselves or viewthe world, and, and I think that
degree of awareness aroundcognition or that degree of
sovereignty that you can help tobuild is huge, and so I assume
(49:19):
it's also digital or distance,not only in person yeah, sorry.
Saloni Surah (49:24):
Yes, it is digital um, so I come up with people
from all over um, you know, withzoom.
So that's really exciting forfor me to be able to offer that.
And you know, I'm looking forpeople who really want change,
because you tend to get changewhen you're working with me.
I'm also somebody who's notgoing to work with 20 people a
(49:44):
day, so you know it's going tobe a select number just because
of energetics and kids andwriting and life.
Josh Porthouse (49:53):
Well, good.
Also, then, learning yourboundaries, I think, counts for
a lot.
Saying that anybody who's newto this show or just watching
this conversation for the firsttime today, depending on the
player you're streaming thisconversation on click see more.
Click show more.
And in the drop downdescription for the conversation
, you'll also see links toSaloni's website and then where
(50:15):
you can get to Amazon and onsocial media as well.
Saloni, I appreciate yourvulnerability and your
authenticity and the progressyou've made and your willingness
to talk about it, um, but alsoyour time, because I know, as of
right now, it's pretty late foryou.
So thanks.
Saloni Surah (50:32):
Thank you so much, thank you.
Josh Porthouse (50:35):
Absolutely Now to anybody else and everybody
else.
Thank you guys for followingalong with our conversation.
I hope you guys got somethingout of it too.
I really enjoyed it and, if youdid, you have an option as well
.
Go to our homepage on ourwebsite,
transactingvaluepodcastcom, andin the top right-hand corner
(50:56):
there's a button that says leavea voicemail.
Click it.
It's two minutes of talk timeall to you.
Here's two recommendations whatyou can do with it.
One, let us know what you thinkof the show, my style, the
questions, the insight, whateveryou want the topics, any more
clarity you might be looking for, or leave a review.
Give us some feedback.
But secondly, tell Saloni whatyou think about the topics.
(51:18):
Let her know what you thinkabout it.
Feedback, like we justdiscussed, makes the world go
round.
And let her know, give herresources, give her inspiration,
give her things that she canwork with her clients on, maybe
things that you're doing in yourown life, and we can relay that
to her as well.
But I think this was such apowerful conversation that
needed to happen andunfortunately doesn't happen
(51:40):
enough.
So I just appreciate theopportunity.
So, that said, saloni, thankyou again.
I appreciate your time,everybody else, our sponsors, my
team working on putting thisshow together.
Thank you, guys, and until nexttime, that was Transacting
Value.
Thank you to our show partnersand folks.
(52:02):
Thank you for tuning in andappreciating our value as we all
grow through life together,together To check out our other
conversations or even tocontribute through feedback
follows time, money or talentand to let us know what you
think of the show.
Please leave a review on ourwebsite,
transactingvaluepodcastcom.
We also stream new episodesevery Monday at 9 am Eastern
(52:22):
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You can now hear TransactingValue on Reads Across America
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Head to readsacrossamericaorg.
Slash transactingvalue tosponsor a reef and remember,
honor and teach the value offreedom for future generations.
On behalf of our team and ourglobal ambassadors, as you all
(52:44):
strive to establish clarity andpurpose, ensure social
tranquility and secure theblessings of liberty or
individual sovereignty ofcharacter for yourselves and
your posterity, we will continueinstigating self-worth and
we'll meet you there.
Until next time.
That was Transacting Value.
The views expressed in this podcast are
solely those of the podcast hostand guest and do not
necessarily represent those ofour distribution partners,
supporting businessrelationships or supported
audience.
Welcome to Transacting Value,where we talk about practical
(00:22):
applications for instigatingself-worth when dealing with
each other and even withinourselves, where we foster a
podcast listening experiencethat lets you hear the power of
a value system for managingburnout, establishing boundaries
, fostering community andfinding identity.
My name is Josh Porthouse, I'myour host and we are redefining
sovereignty of character.
(00:42):
This is why values still holdvalue.
This is Transacting Value.
Saloni Surah (00:49):
I can forgive, but I can't forget.
I can't sit here, across thetable from you, planning
services and doing the changethat you wanted me to do, but
you didn't support me in.
Josh Porthouse (01:02):
Today on Transacting Value.
What is your worth?
How do you measure it when youhave a stalker, when you're
bullied, when you have all sortsof traumatic experiences that
make you question you, youridentity and your own role in
life and in society?
Today we're talking with authorand eye movement and
(01:24):
desensitization reprocessingtherapist, dr Saloni Sarra.
All about it, her experienceand her insight in how to
overcome some of these traumaticsituations and regain your
self-worth in the process.
I'm Josh Porthouse, I'm yourhost and from SDYT Media, this
is Transacting Value.
Saloni, how are you doing?
Saloni Surah (01:46):
I'm good thanks.
How are you?
Josh Porthouse (01:48):
I'm doing well.
I appreciate you taking sometime out of your day, or well
out of your evening, and comingonto the show, so thank you for
the opportunity.
Saloni Surah (01:57):
You're welcome.
Thank you for having me.
Josh Porthouse (01:59):
Absolutely.
Now you have, in my opinion, apretty extreme case of reality,
right Like.
You've been through some stuffthat I don't think many people
have or wish they can, and,unwitting, it sounds like it
just happened to happen.
(02:19):
So let's set the stage a littlebit for everybody who's tuning
into the conversation and who'swatching this.
That, I think, is an importantstep before we dive into
anything in too great a detail.
So in the next couple ofminutes, who are you, where are
you from and what sort of thingsare shaping your perspective on
life now?
Saloni Surah (02:38):
I am a former senior medic, so I was a HIV
sexual health physician at thattime, working in Dublin.
I had a PhD in HIV and drug use.
I my life was very definedaround medicine.
You know, I'm Asian, I live inthe UK, I was living in Ireland
and it's very much aboutachieving and doing and you know
, being a doctor let's let's notpretend and unfortunately
(03:00):
there's quite a bit of sexism inthat but I enjoyed my job.
At that time I was coaching andwriting part time and yeah, it
happened.
You know, and it sounds crazynow because I've looked after a
lot of crazy.
I've gone into prisons, youknow, I've got stories that I
(03:21):
could just regale of my timeworking.
But I didn't think it couldhappen to me some of that and I
didn't realize for a long timethat I had PTSD and all the
things that have happened.
But I talk about it now becauseI want to share it, because it
is possible to come back and Isuppose it's got me to that
(03:43):
point of value and self-worthreally.
Josh Porthouse (03:47):
And when you say you worked in jails and there's
quite a lot of things that youcould regale you were in jail,
like in prison, or what do youmean?
Saloni Surah (03:56):
So we had a service that went out to the
prison service and I mean Ididn't run that.
I went out a couple of times.
As my PhD I ran a service forpeople with a history of drug
use in the methadone clinic.
So I used to go out.
I developed a clinic, then Iused to go out and run that.
In the crazy days there wasn'tany money so I used to go on the
(04:17):
bus with meds.
You know you did what you hadto to get things done, but you
know we had a lot of people fromall over the world, a lot of
people who had um been in andout, of you know, incarceration,
prison guards, um patients andwards there are.
There's a lot of stories.
Josh Porthouse (04:35):
You know a lot of crazy stuff, yeah and so,
aside from the successes and theachievement that you had,
obviously in that field andaspects of building your medical
career, did it actually impactyour personal life, your
professional life?
It sounds like that's whereeverything sort of started for
you, as a climax and as a shift.
Saloni Surah (04:56):
I don't think the patients did per se.
You look after individuals likethat.
It takes a toll and I had goneback as a senior clinician,
part-time, because I knewenergetically that I wanted to
do other stuff and that itactually made me a better doctor
.
Um, I think probably some of itwas childhood and I was unlucky
(05:19):
.
If I'm being honest with you,sometimes there's just an
element of luck or unluck inlife and I think I wasn't the
only person that has had thishappen to them in that workplace
or since by some of theindividuals concerned.
But you know, I was unlucky.
Josh Porthouse (05:39):
So what is the this that happened, or the
aspect of unluck that you'rereferring to?
Saloni Surah (05:47):
Well, I was quite badly bullied and it was quite
insidious and it went on forquite a long time Probably.
You know, as a doctor you havethis element of resilience and
putting up with stuff and Ithink part of that is that the
training is an element at timesquite bullying and kind of
humiliating, and you know, onceyou've worked so long to get to
(06:10):
that point, it's not so easy towalk away.
So, yeah, I was badly bullied.
It started really insidiouslyand it got quite extreme where I
had PTSD from an attemptedmediation that was basically a
verbal attack on me for an hourand I then got physically unwell
(06:33):
, which clearly were signs andsymptoms of PTSD.
So sleep issues, weight issues,chest pain, crying at work, work
eating a banana a day, I think.
At the extreme I was probablysleeping two, three hours of a
night, broken sleep, um, andthen I got stalked as well
(06:56):
online and physically and Icouldn't get anybody to take it
seriously.
So the suggestions from youknow, the guards or um
colleagues or employers was thatmaybe I had sent the letters or
that somebody else had done ita neighbor Because somebody had
started sending anonymousletters out about me to people
(07:16):
like my GP and my employer andmy union rep at the time and
they knew quite a level ofdetail about me rep at the time
and they knew quite a level ofdetail about me.
Josh Porthouse (07:27):
Well, okay, so when you, when you say bullying
it's not like I'm assumingtypical schoolyard push you into
the locker, knock books out ofyour hands, kind of thing no,
it's, you know, quite emotional.
Saloni Surah (07:39):
A lot of gaslighting by colleagues, um,
really insidious.
So you kind of felt like youimagined it.
You were being told that youwere making it up because you
were the more senior individual,that that couldn't be possible.
That individual was a totallydifferent person to the other
people than with me.
Now, I wasn't the only personin that workplace and, you know,
(08:01):
often you'll find withindividuals like this, there is
a pattern of behavior.
It's not just start somewhere,it's been going on in workplaces
or, you know, schools orfamilies.
But you know, my part of it wasextreme and the impact on me
was very extreme.
Josh Porthouse (08:20):
Yeah, was very extreme.
Yeah Well, I guess, in anyparticular environment where
this is taking place and I'malso bringing this up firsthand
not quite to the same extentyou're describing, and it was it
was high school in my case, um,and not necessarily since.
That, at least I've identified.
But I started to question am Imaking this up?
Am I just being paranoid?
(08:42):
I mean, did that happen, orwhat sort of questions were you
even asking yourself?
Saloni Surah (08:47):
Yeah, absolutely.
You know, it started quiteinnocuous and I remember and I
quote this a lot going to a talkby one of the governors, so the
chief, the person who ran oneof the big prisons in Dublin and
he was talking about bullyingat workplaces and he said you
know, if you're feelinguncomfortable, it's happening,
but it's often very challengingto delineate.
(09:08):
Do you know what I mean?
And people don't want to dealwith it.
Um, and that that wasabsolutely it.
Am I making this up?
I was being told that I wasbeing too much, that I had said
things, I had done things.
Uh, maybe I had sent theletters, you know, maybe I was
making that up that's reallyharming at the extreme.
(09:28):
I remember leaving occupationalhealth and I hated going there
because just going to theworkplace was traumatic.
They weren't a good doctor,they weren't really interested
in helping me and I was soparanoid.
I remember walking home adifferent way and there was a
shop there.
I remember pretending to gointo the shop and hiding because
there was a machine outside it.
So I pretended to go in, hidbehind the machine.
(09:50):
So if somebody was following methat maybe they thought I'd
gone in.
And you know.
Walking home then a totallydifferent way again.
So, yeah, it totally made meparanoid and you know who can
you trust?
Josh Porthouse (10:05):
Absolutely.
I mean mean, because at thatpoint it's tough to even trust
your own observations that Ithink that's an important aspect
as well, because what we'resaying here is that these aren't
people giving you criticism andfeedback that you're randomly
meeting on social media.
I mean, these are people thatyou trusted and that you worked
with and that you held in, Iassume, assume a relatively high
esteem.
You're all a bunch of doctors.
Saloni Surah (10:25):
Oh yeah, absolutely.
There are people I trusted,people I'd done my PhD
supervisors with.
I mean, one was a friend whowarned me at one point that I
was going to be scapegoated andthen started copying behavior,
because when behavior like thatgoes unchecked or is facilitated
or enabled by other people,then other people copy it.
The whole place becomesinhospitable, um, and really
(10:48):
unpleasant and destabilized.
Josh Porthouse (10:50):
and that is what happened in my workplace and
that's what happens in a lot ofworkplaces a lot of it gets
accepted, it's commonplace, it'sharmless, it's dismissed as not
a big deal or or whatever.
And, like the majority of myprofessional career has been in
the us marine corps, so in thedod, the department of defense,
I don't want to say that's thenorm, because that's not the
norm right, but there's sort ofmaybe romanticizing of those
(11:17):
behaviors can be put up with ityou know it makes you stronger,
there's something, what's wrongwith you.
Saloni Surah (11:23):
You're imagining it, just just grow up.
Or you know I remember youstronger, there's what's wrong
with you.
You're imagining it, just justgrow up.
Or you know I remember beingtold if you had a family it
wouldn't matter so much.
Or you know you can't changepeople and I was like I
understand, but you can makethem be responsible for the way
that they are, their behavior isand other people, because I
wasn't the only one.
You know there were otherpeople being targeted, there
were patients being complaining.
(11:46):
You know it wasn't an isolatedthing and that's often the case
with us, that it's not isolated,there's a pattern.
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Listen in on iheart radioodyssey and tune in it wasn't an
isolated thing.
Saloni Surah (12:16):
Um and that's often the case with us that it's
not isolated.
Josh Porthouse (12:20):
It there's a pattern and I think that's the
difference there, isn't it likeit is?
It is totally plausible, Ithink, to have this be sort of
your whatever joking might be atrivial word here, but but a
joking type atmosphere, likeit's just the culture of people
being people and whateverdegrees of maturity in the
workplace.
But I think when a lot of otherperspectives start to chime in,
(12:41):
it's not a single sourcereporting anymore now there's
corroboration, and I thinkthat's where the line starts to
push, uh, or the line of effortstarts to push a threshold, uh,
where you cross it.
So you get out of thatenvironment and you start moving
through.
And you wake up the next dayand you're like all right, I've
got a new job, a new place insociety, a new role, new
(13:03):
capacity, I'm, I'm better, orwhat happened?
Saloni Surah (13:06):
It took me a long time and I'm not like you know,
it's still steps.
So I had what was not a greatemployer, you know.
I think if you're in theprivate sector it's different.
But if you work in the publicsector and certainly you know
the US, is probably different.
But you know the uk and ireland, the health services, uh, you
(13:28):
know, inbred in a lot of places,inefficient, um, wasting money
and they don't want to deal withstuff and there is a culture of
bullying in a lot of workplacesso they don't deal with it.
So there was secondary bullying.
I had ptsd and didn't know andclearly in hindsight I did um,
it's obvious's obvious, butnobody mentioned it.
(13:48):
So it took me until my firstchild was born to get it
diagnosed, when I becameincredibly unwell and I actually
moved country when I was sevenmonths pregnant because I wasn't
safe.
And I look at it now goingclearly I have PTSD, but the
fact that nobody said it and Iwas seeing a psychiatrist and
maternity hospitals and stuff isa bit shocking.
So when my eldest was probablysix months old, I finally got it
(14:13):
diagnosed.
It took me another few monthsto get it treated and that
really transformed my life.
That treatment was called EMDRtherapy and that's a kind of
evidence-based tool for PTSD.
And from then I really startedto recover because up until that
point I was in fight or flight.
I was scared of everything,everything was going to go wrong
.
I just, you know, exhausted,you know wanted, you know wanted
(14:39):
to be a mom.
For a long time thought thiswas going to be my big break.
I was having much longer for achild, I'd got married, but you
know my mindset I was stillliving in fight or flight, like
I was being stalked and bullied,um.
So that therapy gave me my lifeback, um, and I started to
parent and feel better and putweight on and live again.
(14:59):
Um had another child and thenstarted to pick up my book.
So I've been writing for 13years, um, fiction books and you
know, because I've been so well, just hadn't been able to.
So picked up my books and whenmy second child was fairly young
, I self-published my first book, which is a girl detective book
, a funny sassy book.
(15:21):
I'm going to show it veryquickly.
I'm really proud of it.
But a funny sassy book, um,flora Investigates the Case of
the Missing Gold Eggs and it'sreally about a girl, you know.
So I wanted an inspiring rolemodel, healthy female role model
, but it was.
You know.
It's a girl who wants to be adetective, who wanted to hit the
big time, wasn't gettingemployed.
(15:41):
So she set up her own agencyand found her first case a
gold-eyed laying chicken hadgone missing and, you know,
solved it and flew on a boat andmet a lot of cats and met a
scary hunter, um.
And then I picked up mycoaching again as well and I
retrained.
So I went on and did my emdrtherapy training, um, and that
(16:03):
is eye movement reprocessing anddesensitization therapy and
it's one of the evidence-basedtherapies for PTSD.
Josh Porthouse (16:11):
Can you walk me through what that means, because
I'm picturing, follow my fingerand look at it.
Yeah, but what is okay?
So, as accurate as that mightbe, what is the correlation to
that and any sort ofpost-traumatic stress?
Saloni Surah (16:26):
yeah.
So when you have PTSD or trauma, the memories get stuck in the
wrong part of the brain, theyget put in the wrong place and
you end up reliving them and theyou know.
So that's what I was doing.
I was walking around, feelingscared the whole time, feeling
like I was going to be attacked,feeling like life wasn't safe,
people, people weren't listeningto me and, and you know, I
ended up with what was aterrible birth of my child.
(16:48):
So that you know, it's reallyquite incredible.
It is literally like you thinkabout the worst of the worst.
Obviously you work with atherapist, you work through it,
and it is following eyemovements, um, fingers or it's,
you know, um using hands.
It uses bilateral brainstimulation to reprocess those
memories and to desensitize thesomatic symptomology, and it
(17:14):
usually takes a few sessions towork, but it is.
You know, it was incredible inmy, in my case, like I went from
being seven and a half stonelooking at my, my child crying,
wanting to be dead, um, feelingterrible because I desperately I
love them, I wanted to be there, but I just was so traumatized.
Josh Porthouse (17:31):
Which is detached.
Saloni Surah (17:33):
Yeah, just, you know, I mean I, I, yes, probably
I was so traumatized that wasalso a traumatic birth because
of the PTSD and that that I,yeah, wasn't as emotional and
aware present as I would haveliked to have been and, um, you
know, I put weight on, I startto make plans for the future.
The fact that I published abook and that I'm talking to you
(17:57):
today is testament to that,because I wouldn't have been
able to do that because I was soscared after being stalked and
bullied.
So, you know, I've been onsocial media.
I do interviews, I share, Ipost, I talk about my books, I
talk about my coaching, I talkabout what's happened.
I couldn't have done thatbefore because I felt ashamed,
like I had done something wrong,like it was my fault and I was
(18:19):
still reliving it.
So that helped me to reprocessthat and go oh my goodness, a
really terrible thing happened.
But I'm not living anymore.
It was terrible.
I can talk about it.
I can talk and not cry and notbreak down.
I mean I had a blue dress thatI wore to that mediation and I
couldn't look at it for years.
It just triggered me.
Do you know what I I mean?
Just looking at that blue dressthat I'd worn to the mediation,
(18:41):
where I'd been so viciouslyattacked, it was just so
visceral that I I couldn't lookat it.
I've worn it, I wear it now.
Josh Porthouse (18:49):
I look at it and I'm like, okay, you know, it's
just a blue dress again when Iask you, uh, a question about I,
I guess maybe ego, uh, and thisis coming from a place of
curiosity, not judgment.
Okay, I'm not trying toantagonize the situation, but,
(19:09):
um, but I'm curious.
See, in my experience and inothers that I've talked to, the
defense or maybe counterpointhas been it's not bullying, like
you mentioned, you just got toget tougher, develop a thicker
skin, but then me being offendedis a me problem, right, which
(19:29):
is then more egotistical, Ithink, than not psychologically
speaking.
And so do you think bullying ingeneral is obviously there's
thresholds here, right, but doyou think bullying in general is
more of a psychological issuedue to ego and pride, and then,
(19:53):
once it becomes physical, itcrosses the line, or humiliating
it crosses the line, butinitially do you think it's
rooted in ego, that maybe thatis something we can work through
before it gets to that point?
Saloni Surah (20:03):
I think I mean it.
Why do people bully?
Usually because they don't feelgood about themselves.
I mean, let's be honest, solet's.
I mean I've done a lot ofthinking and a lot of work on
this.
You know, I also did a uhtraining on evolutionary
meditation, which is like avoice dialogue tapping thing.
But you know, if you stand back, why do people bully?
It's usually because they don'tfeel good about themselves and
(20:24):
because they've been bullied orthey feel so terrible or they're
jealous of somebody, so they dotheir best to make the that
person feel bad.
You know that that's the cruxof it.
Or they have behavioral issuesor personality issues.
Um, and I know, certainly inthis case there was a lot of
stuff being taken out on many ofus by the individual who had
(20:47):
maybe anger issues, rage issues,behavioral issues.
You know it'd been enabled andfacilitated.
And so I think you know, atmultiple points I said, you know
individuals need psychologicalsupport.
We can get people in, we canturn this around.
So I'm not somebody who goesright, there's a problem.
You're us, you're all not verygood.
I'm leaving.
I didn't want to do that, Ididn't want to not work, and
(21:10):
when I went off I said send meanywhere.
I've taught, taught in themedical schools, I've worked in
other hospitals.
I've been at which clinic?
I just cannot be here, and atthat point I had tried to get
people in, external people, inpsychologists, in.
They didn't want to do that.
That could have totally changedthe face of this, you know, and
even though you can't changepeople, you can make them
(21:30):
understand that their behavioris not acceptable.
But I think in the vastmajority of cases it's people
who don't feel good aboutthemselves so probably ego
problem who feel insecure.
You may feel threatened, um,and it manifests, as you know,
being a bully when really theyfeel small and scared, but
they're masking or hiding it, um, in this way I think it's often
(21:52):
, always or often quitting theact of bullying or the verbal
communication of bullying, wherethat results in what we're
defining as bullying.
Josh Porthouse (22:05):
Do you think it's always a witting endeavor,
like a conscious driven effort,or is it just more of like a
group think everybody's laughing, thinks it's funny, I'm going
to do it.
Saloni Surah (22:14):
So I think there's an element of both.
So I think, certainly for theindividual, in my case, I think
that the individual that wasdoing it, it was probably partly
conscious, because, you know,if we stand back, I think for a
lot of bullies they're notfeeling great and they want to
feel better, and taking someonedown is a great way to do that,
and then it becomes a groupthing where you know everyone
(22:35):
else is doing it, so I'll do it.
That was my.
Josh Porthouse (22:41):
I don't know if I can talk about talk about as
my experience, but that was myexperience of it.
Well, yeah, sure, sure, and Iguess that's an important point
to clarify too, that we're nottrying to blanket all aspects or
all scenarios that could beinvolved in bullying, just these
two that we're describing rightnow.
You know yours and maybe mine,but so if that's the case, then
how do we combat that degree ofinsecurity or maybe a lack of
(23:05):
self-awareness for people likethem or people that maybe fall
in this category as bullies?
And then, because oftentimesthat can just antagonize the
problem, yeah, so what's thebalance?
Saloni Surah (23:18):
So you know, I think a lot of it does come from
childhood or younger.
Um, in my case, you know I hadsaid so.
What can you do in a workplace?
It certainly what happenedwasn't great and had they have
done some of the stuff I'dsuggested, it might not have got
to that extreme level.
Um, you know, I suggested let'sget psychologists in.
People can be supported.
(23:39):
You know, for anger management,that kind of stuff needs to be
done and that can be done.
You know the whole workplace isstarting to turn.
Um, you know, let's try and nipthis in the bud and turn this
around, because that's what youwant.
Ultimately.
You don't want workplaces to belike that because you know
people are unhappy peopleunhappy or traumatized or, you
know, dreading going into work,they're not going to perform and
(24:01):
presumably nobody wants aworkplace like that and then
they go home and affect theirwork lives too, you know.
And then you know if you'retraumatized as a parent, then
it's hard not to take that homeand pass that on to your child
as well.
Do you know what I mean?
well, yeah, absolutely so youknow, I saw that so much with
sexual trauma, um, how thatpassed down onto children and
(24:22):
the impacts of that.
Um, you know, I think a lot ofit probably comes from childhood
and not feeling good enough.
Um, you know, and some of it ispersonality disorders.
So you're not going to be ableto change that.
Um, but you know, I think, evenif that is the case, just
further victimizing the victimor re-bullying them isn't really
the way to solve these issuesand all it does is it forces
(24:46):
good people out.
I think.
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Saloni Surah (25:46):
Further victimizing the victim or
re-bullying them isn't reallythe way to solve these issues,
and all it does is it forcesgood people out.
I think you know.
Josh Porthouse (25:52):
Yeah, sure, and I think a lot of times specific
to being in a workplace or acorporate environment.
It's systemic, it's not anindividual person more often
than not.
Right, occasionally you get abad hire or whatever, but yeah,
that kind of toxic environmenthappens.
So then, conversely, how do wefoster this atmosphere of
(26:13):
resilience and actual trainingor human intelligence or
personal development to combatagainst this?
Because, at least in my opinion, the only way you can do that
is with some degree of exposure.
Otherwise there's no basis toqualify anything.
Saloni Surah (26:30):
It's a really good question and I think it goes
back to, you know, the cultureand the workplaces.
And then you know, I think it'srecognizing I'm out of my depth
here.
I don't know what to do.
So if that person who had donethe mediation with me had gone
I'm totally out of that depth, Ishouldn't be doing this then a
lot of things would have beenaverted.
And then you know, people havegone.
(26:50):
I just don't know what to do.
Let's get people in.
So I think if it's gone to thatpoint you really don't know,
put your hands up and say Idon't know, and get people who
do know it.
And some people sometimes it'spsychological support, sometimes
it's training, sometimes it'scome on, guys, this has got out
of hand.
There's somebody hurt here, notbrushing it under the carpet,
(27:16):
because people get busy and it'smy job and I have a career and
money and obviously I understandall of that.
But when people are gettinghurt and it's being repeated
because you know I wasn't theonly one and I'm pretty sure
this has been repeated that'swhere you've got these patterns
of repeating this and where itgets more and more dangerous
because you know people have gotaway with it for so long.
So you know well what can I getaway with this time, or it just
(27:39):
gets out of hand.
Josh Porthouse (27:42):
Yeah, it definitely can.
It's obviously the strength innumbers or or the degree of
magnetism around the behavioraccumulates over time.
So there's also this stigma,though and again, this is not
specific to any particularworkplace but there's also this
stigma that if I bring this up,it's only going to get worse for
(28:03):
me before it gets better foreverybody else, and in some
cases that's true, but how do wemake that either more
manageable and palatable forwhoever these individuals are
that feel the need to bring thisup, or, systemically, in any
particular industry, address itso that that's not as much a
(28:24):
concern?
Saloni Surah (28:25):
and that's a really good question.
I don't think I have the fullanswer for that.
I mean, I think it is abouthaving, you know, leaders or
people in those higher positionsthat have emotional
intelligence or at least areopen to say look, I'm out of my
um depth here.
You know, I was like that as adoctor if I didn't know
something, I have no ego aboutgoing, I don't know what I'm
(28:46):
doing, I'm going to ask somebodyelse for advice or, you know,
run up against people.
Do you know what I mean?
I don't, I don't think it'sabout knowing all the answers,
but I think it's about knowingwhere the limitations are and
looking at those cultures andsystems.
And that takes time,unfortunately, but unfortunately
.
But I'm sure there's, you know,plenty of workplaces that are
doing it.
I mean, like I went to thistalk from, like I say, the
(29:06):
governor who was running MountDroid Prison, which is one of
the toughest prisons in Dublin,and he was talking about
workplaces.
So if he's talking about it andbullying workplaces, then you
know there are people doing itin really tough environments.
So it is possible.
Josh Porthouse (29:21):
Well, that's an important distinction too.
You were at a prison, so whenwe say workplace, this isn't
like a team of accountants.
Saloni Surah (29:29):
You know, the atmosphere and the tolerance is
still, I think, a bit higherthan a societal baseline already
so I mean you know, that wasactually a hospital, so I did I
mean, I sometimes did the prisonclinic, but that was in the
hospital where I was and and,unfortunately, a lot of
hospitals.
(29:50):
You know, um, I don't knowwhether you read the book adam k
, this is gonna hurt.
You know he talks about thatand has those two books about
how the medical system andtraining and the health service
is often quite bullyingenvironment and you know it's,
it's part of it learning byhumiliation.
Josh Porthouse (30:06):
Um, it's kind of set up in that way is that a
gender specific thing and, andmore just, sexist?
Or is it based on seniority andeducation level?
Saloni Surah (30:16):
and you're the new guy, I'm the senior student
it's a bit of seniority, it'sjust um hierarchical, it's just,
unfortunately, that's the wayit is, um which you know.
That's it.
The learning sometimes is aboutkind of humiliation you've got
it wrong and also, I suppose,probably like the military, it's
a high pressure, high stressenvironment.
People are sick, you know um,yeah, people are sick.
(30:41):
You're doing nights, you'redoing unsocial hours there's a
lot of sacrifice there, um, andagain, I don't really know how
that changes.
I I personally having access tohealth care more the last few
years, I've have found it a lotmore unpalatable than I expected
, um, with the way that I'vebeen spoken to and treated um
and family members, andcertainly it's not a way I would
(31:03):
have spoken to my patients, youknow, um.
You know, because I thinkeveryone deserves to be spoken
to, no matter where they comefrom and I'm very passionate
about that after the medicalcredit no matter where they've
come from, what they've donewith a bit of kindness and
dignity.
You know, unfortunately I thinkthat's got worse in the health
care but, um, in systems overall.
Josh Porthouse (31:24):
Um, you know, hopefully it's a new way of
doing business where we actuallycare for each other and and
recognize that being nice in theworkplace and treating
employees well gets more out ofthem, which is, you know, better
for everyone yeah, it's simpleas that it really is and, and
you're not far off the mark Ican't speak to, you know, the
british military, for example,or the royal marines even, but
(31:47):
at least in the us, and only inmy experience in the us marine
corps, that that has been apretty common vein where the
degree of training from anyindividual in a more senior
position, based on time or, youknow, by virtue of position and
meritocracy, generally comesfrom what I've considered now
(32:10):
more consistently as aninadequate leadership style, but
also a relatively discouragedability or style of
communication, because then itjust, it is effective and it
does get people's behaviors tochange, which is the goal.
And in a high-stressoccupational environment
(32:33):
medicine, military, whicheverthere has to be a certain degree
of detachment, I think, to beable to function in a high
stress environment so you're notas concerned with your own
wellbeing, for example, you'remore focused on somebody else's
Well.
That requires some detachmentand I think in that training
pipeline what tends to happenthen is a relative degree of
(32:55):
embarrassment along the way orwhatever.
I think the threshold and Ican't speak to medicine as an
industry, but in the Departmentof Defense at least I think the
threshold is building it back,the camaraderie around.
Yes, everybody went through it,but it's not sustainable in
that environment.
What it becomes then now is apoint of leverage as a common
(33:17):
point of reference to say that'swhat it feels like Now, you
know.
So here's how we build back,encourage some degree of
discipline or camaraderie orwhatever needs to happen as a
result.
In a sort of moreindividualistic sense, I think,
when we start to question ourpositions, like you mentioned in
yours, it's difficult tosustain that kind of growth in
(33:41):
any environment, even if it'sencouraged to build back and
develop resiliency or disciplineor whatever, and so my working
theory is that it gets rooted ina value system, I think, and
that gives us something we canlatch onto, because it's an
internally driven metric thatisn't required to be validated
by somebody else's opinions, andso this is a segment of the
(34:03):
show called developing character.
D D D, developing character.
Now it's two questions, and forclarity and full disclosure, as
vulnerable as you prefer youranswers to be, is totally cool,
but it's rooted in two timeperiods, because I think some of
this is nurture and I thinksome of this is nature, and so
(34:24):
my questions are what were someof your values growing up or
that you remember being exposedto as a child and then now being
older in life.
What are some of your valuesnow?
Saloni Surah (34:37):
You know it's a very funny one.
One of my colleagues would say,saloni, you've always got to do
the right thing.
It just crucifies you injustice.
And so I am somebody who isgoing to speak out and say, no,
this is making me uncomfortable,or no, I don't like where that
person's being spoken to.
Or you know, I've had argumentswith adopters.
When they've gone, you'repatients and I'm like what do
(34:57):
you mean?
My patients?
You know they may have HIVpatients.
And I'm like what do you mean?
My patients, you know they mayhave HIV.
They may be a prisoner.
They're still entitled to careand still entitled to be spoken
to.
Okay, but if that you know, ifthey're being rude or aggressive
or using, then they also needto know that's not unacceptable,
not acceptable.
Um, so I suppose those are myvalues.
Um, I think part of its natureand nurture.
(35:17):
So some of that I was inbredwith, but I've already already
touched on.
You know, I come from a familywhere there is inherent sexism
and there's a lot of stuff wedon't talk about.
And again, I won't do that.
So you know I'm not going tosit there and pretend there's
not domestic violence going onthere.
I'm not going to pretend thatI'm okay with it.
Do you know what I mean?
(35:38):
Even if that's the way it is?
So I think you're right.
I think it's a bit of both.
Josh Porthouse (35:43):
So what do you think is an effective mechanism
or option to maybe, at abaseline level, develop that
degree of awareness and realizeyou do have some control over
your perspective and youroutlook and your responses and
then, secondarily, do somethingabout it?
In the workplace or as anindividual well in an individual
(36:05):
in a workplace, but as anindividualized style of control
or a control point again.
Saloni Surah (36:11):
I think it partly does go back to the nature
nurture and it you know if we'retalking from a coaching point
of view is at what point you hitthat pain point and go.
I'm not putting up with thisanymore and you're either forced
to do something or, um, youknow you make that decision and
I'll be brutally honest to mysituation.
I was kind of forced because Ibecame so unwell.
(36:32):
I just couldn't physically doit anymore.
I think, again, it goes back tovalues and who you are.
So through all of this you knowall the stuff that happened to
me I kept on going.
There must be better.
You know I'm not going back andit would have been easier to
have gone back to my workplace.
I would be earning far moremoney, life would be a lot
(36:53):
easier.
But I was just like there's noway I can return to a workplace,
that this has happened, wherepeople have facilitated it, who
I trusted, where people havehurt me, where they made
accusations about me.
I just can't sit and look atyou.
I have a deep forgivenesspractice.
I have a deep spiritualpractice and I've done a lot of
forgiveness at multiple pointswhere I've literally worked
(37:14):
through everyone in my life andI can forgive, but I can't
forget.
I can't sit here across thetable from you planning services
, um, and doing the change thatyou wanted me to do, but you
didn't support me in.
Do you know what I mean?
Um, you know.
So part of it is I'm a squarein a circle hole because I see
(37:36):
things in different ways and I,you know, try to bring in change
and people don't like that.
Part of it's like my valuesystem is saying I'm just not
going to force myself back intosomewhere where it's really
unpleasant for me All right,folks sit tight and we'll be
right back on Transacting Value.
Josh Porthouse (37:55):
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What's most jarring, she didn'teven recognize the abuse while
(38:19):
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Saloni Surah (38:40):
If you've ever questioned your value after
being torn down, this episodewill show you how to reclaim it
part of it's like my valuesystem is saying I'm just not
going to force myself back intosomewhere where it's really
unpleasant for me in standing onwhat it is, the uh, you know
view as our own worth or or ourown value, for example, in a
(39:00):
particular environment, it's alot easier than to identify.
Josh Porthouse (39:03):
I don't fit here the square in the round hole,
for example, yeah, but in doingthat, I think we still
individually owe it to ourselvesto be able to reconcile that,
like you said, I could be makingmore money, I could be doing
other things like thesepotential, uh, maybe other
success metrics now change.
(39:25):
So how do you make peace withthat degree of acceptance?
Saloni Surah (39:29):
it's been a long road.
You, I'll be honest, I did aFacebook post about grief being
a dirty word and how it was likea part of me had died.
I mean for me probably, likeyou, I started medicine when I
was like 16, 15.
All the stuff to get in thetraining, my friends, sacrifices
(39:50):
, getting and getting marriedolder, having children at a
later age, and how I lost it alland it, you know, it is like a
part of me died and I didn'tknow who I was and it.
There's been an awful lot ofgrief, of letting go, of
shedding of who am I, because myentire identity was tied up in
that.
(40:10):
You know part of that was, youknow, like you say, a job that,
like medicine, military, are allconsuming.
Part of that was kind of I wasexpected of me and you know, if
I'd had a different upbringing Imight have gone being more
creative at an earlier age, butthat wouldn't have been okay.
Um, you know it's not been theeasiest thing in the world.
You know I've done lot.
(40:30):
I do a lot of self-developmentand I'm working for it.
You know I did a lot of EMDR.
I've done a lot of coaching andwork on myself.
I write, which is reallyhealing.
And you know I talk because Ithink it's important to talk
about these things, and I'm notthe only one going through this.
(40:52):
There's plenty of other peopleout there who are going through
this.
Stories may be different, um,but you know grief comes in
different ways, um, you know,and asking for help and support,
but you know, it's not been theeasiest thing and I'm going to
be honest about that.
My life would be much easier.
I'd be in a much bigger house,um, things would be different.
It's like I've worked to get tothis point and I'm starting
(41:13):
again.
You know, uh, you know, with mywriting and coaching and, um,
you know it's great, but I notwhere I thought I would be, and
you know that's that's.
Josh Porthouse (41:25):
That's sort of the practical point about it too
, isn't it?
I mean professionally, maybestarting over maybe a new
industry relatively to, relativeto were, but personally you're
on a totally different level now.
You know what I mean, and allof the strength and acceptance
and ownership that you builtalong the way, in spite of the
vulnerability, and then theauthenticity now that you bring
(41:47):
into your practice and just itsounds like, into your daily
life as a result totally changes, I think, the entire equation.
I mean, it's not, it's notstarting back from zero.
You know, it's like a some sortof linear periodization where
all you've really done isdeloaded, you haven't reset, and
(42:08):
I think that's a superimportant distinction yeah,
thank you.
Saloni Surah (42:12):
I mean I, um, you know I wrote this really fun
book I have.
I've been trying to um my fairybook.
I've got a fairy book which isa middle grade book and it was
supposed to be a fun fairy book,you know, because fairies are
fun.
And then I realized I waswriting about fairies having
their wings clipped and then Iwas like, oh my god, this is my
bullying in here, you know, andforgiveness, and getting wings
(42:32):
back.
And you know, and I was like,but you know, in some way it
happens to us all at some pointin life that we get our wings
clipped off and by people thatwe love or we've trusted, and
how do we get that back and getour forgiveness back?
And I mentioned the Adam Kaybook.
Um, you know, about five yearsago I had started writing this
book about medical memoirs andsome of the challenges of you
(42:53):
know night shifts and you knowreally basic things about not
even being able to go to thetoilet and if you're a lady and
it's a certain time of the monthnot having time to take care of
things, and I just couldn'twrite it for a long time.
I picked it up again this yearand a book on bullying as well.
So I think also there's some ofthat into turning it, into
(43:16):
alchemising it, into helpingother people.
You know that's what I want todo that.
So you know I wrote a fun book,but it's a book about a girl
who has a dream and who's goingfor it a bit like me.
But I also looked after so manyadults who were literate and
who's going for it a bit like me.
But I also looked after so manyadults who were illiterate and
who couldn't read or write andyou know, when you're doing
quality of life questionnaireson them and substance misuse
(43:39):
questionnaires on them every sixmonths you get fairly quick at
asking them that but whoprobably grew up in homes where
they're working on sheets andneedles and probably nobody told
them that they were worthy andthey could do anything and, um,
you know generations ofsubstance abuse.
Josh Porthouse (43:56):
You know I wanted to inspire kids because
not every child has that that'sabsolutely true, and I think, in
that regard, maybe we're bothdoing the same thing, maybe a
different medium, yeah, um, butall things considered,
instigating self-worth, and so Iguess, for the sake of time, I
really have two other questionsfor you.
All of this being said, all ofthese experiences, what is it
(44:18):
actually done for your own senseof self and self-worth now as a
result?
Saloni Surah (44:27):
so the really funny thing is it's an awful lot
stronger.
I didn't think you know, I youknow, and also as a medic, you
give, you give, you give.
I didn't think deep down,probably, that I was worthy or
good enough, despite the successI'd had the phds, the exams all
that stuff um, and I, you know,I'm not the only one.
There's plenty of people in thatposition who feel like an
(44:49):
imposter.
Um, and now I'm like no, I knowmy worth, I would never go back
there.
And you know, I reclaimed mypower.
Um, you know, I live in a verydifferent house.
I married somebody who I didn'texpect I you know, on the
outset I would have gone no to10 years ago.
It was the best thing thathappened to me.
(45:09):
He made me laugh and you know,he was there for me and I'm
honest with him, I probablywouldn't have looked at him 10
years ago, which is you know,I'm being open about this which
is really sad, you know, becausehe was totally there, he made
me laugh and I've got two lovelychildren.
You know, I'd like a bit morebalance in my life career-wise.
(45:30):
Having reached that, to getback there again, um, but I'm
also coming out from a differentplace.
My mom now, and before it wasall about work.
Um, whilst I wanted that, youknow, it kind of took over and
and I knew when I went back atthe top level that I needed to
look at that.
Um, so, yeah, the irony is ithas brought me to that place of
self-worth, knowing that I amgood enough on my power, and
(45:52):
reclaiming that and being like,no, you know, having
conversations with people whowere part of this and saying
that that was not okay and youdid hurt me, and I know that
some of them have listened tosome of the podcasts I've done
and gone.
Josh Porthouse (46:05):
Oh, you know yeah, well, that's what it takes
sometimes.
Let me, I'm going to share thiswith you real quick.
This took me, oh, 15 years inthe marine corps to learn you
ready.
What do you call a combinationof acceptance and balance?
Saloni Surah (46:26):
I want to say sovereignty.
Sovereignty boundaries, likethat's something I've been
working a lot with issovereignty being sovereign.
Josh Porthouse (46:34):
I suppose it could be in a manner of speaking
, but harmony is the word that Ilearned it to be when you know,
empowering some degree ofcharacter, sovereignty, I think,
is the ultimate goal of anygrowth experience in the human
condition.
You know, trying to figure outyour place and then accepting
(46:57):
what you find out is trickybecause, like you said, it may
not be discovering what youexpect it's often not.
Saloni Surah (47:06):
I mean, you know, and that actually peace and
harmony and balance the thingsthat I've really been working on
these last three to six monthsof you know, sovereignty,
balance and harmony.
You know I am where I am andit's okay, and you know, for
here and now, everything is okay.
Josh Porthouse (47:24):
Well, I'm proud of you.
Congratulations.
Saloni Surah (47:27):
Thank you so much.
Josh Porthouse (47:28):
Absolutely.
I don't think it's a commonoccurrence, on one hand, to
learn that degree of acceptanceand, on the other hand, have a
total stranger say hey, good job.
Saloni Surah (47:37):
Thank you.
Yeah, no, it's not.
I don't get it very often, sothank you.
Josh Porthouse (47:41):
Yeah, but okay.
So my last question.
Then you talked about bothbooks.
You've talked about otherpodcasts.
So for anybody that wants toread the books, buy the books,
become a client, listen to theshows.
Where do people go?
Saloni Surah (47:52):
so my website is salonisuracom.
I am redoing the coaching bitbut by this time it's out it
will be up and ready.
Um, I'm on social mediasalonisura author and at saloni
book and flora investigates,which is the only book out at
the moment, is available topurchase through amazon.
So worldwide as an ebook andKindle book.
(48:13):
She's always looking to fly andfind new exciting readers.
And, yeah, I'm offering EMDRand I will be combining it with
belief coding, which for me, isthe next natural step with it.
So you know, clearing thetrauma and then recoding a new
beliefs, um, which I found verypowerful and big shifts in my
(48:34):
life the last few months, um,and I'm really excited about
that.
Josh Porthouse (48:38):
For me, it feels really wonderful being able to
come back and and do that forothers after what I've gone
through first off, I agree withyou and I think that there's a
one-way circuit, only one way,between or among cognition,
behavior, physical spaces andinformation, and then it resets
(48:58):
on cognition, behavior, physicalspaces, information, and it's
only one way.
That's it.
And when you're talking aboutfinding ways to work through or
shift a behavior pattern, youhave to start with the way
people view themselves or viewthe world, and, and I think that
degree of awareness aroundcognition or that degree of
sovereignty that you can help tobuild is huge, and so I assume
(49:19):
it's also digital or distance,not only in person yeah, sorry.
Saloni Surah (49:24):
Yes, it is digital um, so I come up with people
from all over um, you know, withzoom.
So that's really exciting forfor me to be able to offer that.
And you know, I'm looking forpeople who really want change,
because you tend to get changewhen you're working with me.
I'm also somebody who's notgoing to work with 20 people a
(49:44):
day, so you know it's going tobe a select number just because
of energetics and kids andwriting and life.
Josh Porthouse (49:53):
Well, good.
Also, then, learning yourboundaries, I think, counts for
a lot.
Saying that anybody who's newto this show or just watching
this conversation for the firsttime today, depending on the
player you're streaming thisconversation on click see more.
Click show more.
And in the drop downdescription for the conversation
, you'll also see links toSaloni's website and then where
(50:15):
you can get to Amazon and onsocial media as well.
Saloni, I appreciate yourvulnerability and your
authenticity and the progressyou've made and your willingness
to talk about it, um, but alsoyour time, because I know, as of
right now, it's pretty late foryou.
So thanks.
Saloni Surah (50:32):
Thank you so much, thank you.
Josh Porthouse (50:35):
Absolutely Now to anybody else and everybody
else.
Thank you guys for followingalong with our conversation.
I hope you guys got somethingout of it too.
I really enjoyed it and, if youdid, you have an option as well
.
Go to our homepage on ourwebsite,
transactingvaluepodcastcom, andin the top right-hand corner
(50:56):
there's a button that says leavea voicemail.
Click it.
It's two minutes of talk timeall to you.
Here's two recommendations whatyou can do with it.
One, let us know what you thinkof the show, my style, the
questions, the insight, whateveryou want the topics, any more
clarity you might be looking for, or leave a review.
Give us some feedback.
But secondly, tell Saloni whatyou think about the topics.
(51:18):
Let her know what you thinkabout it.
Feedback, like we justdiscussed, makes the world go
round.
And let her know, give herresources, give her inspiration,
give her things that she canwork with her clients on, maybe
things that you're doing in yourown life, and we can relay that
to her as well.
But I think this was such apowerful conversation that
needed to happen andunfortunately doesn't happen
(51:40):
enough.
So I just appreciate theopportunity.
So, that said, saloni, thankyou again.
I appreciate your time,everybody else, our sponsors, my
team working on putting thisshow together.
Thank you, guys, and until nexttime, that was Transacting
Value.
Thank you to our show partnersand folks.
(52:02):
Thank you for tuning in andappreciating our value as we all
grow through life together,together To check out our other
conversations or even tocontribute through feedback
follows time, money or talentand to let us know what you
think of the show.
Please leave a review on ourwebsite,
transactingvaluepodcastcom.
We also stream new episodesevery Monday at 9 am Eastern
(52:22):
Standard Time through all ofyour favorite podcasting
platforms like Spotify, iheartand TuneIn.
You can now hear TransactingValue on Reads Across America
Radio.
Head to readsacrossamericaorg.
Slash transactingvalue tosponsor a reef and remember,
honor and teach the value offreedom for future generations.
On behalf of our team and ourglobal ambassadors, as you all
(52:44):
strive to establish clarity andpurpose, ensure social
tranquility and secure theblessings of liberty or
individual sovereignty ofcharacter for yourselves and
your posterity, we will continueinstigating self-worth and
we'll meet you there.
Until next time.
That was Transacting Value.
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