March 10, 2025 • 51 mins
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Feeling overwhelmed by the relentless demands of nursing? Join us for a profound conversation with Jeanelle Klassen, a registered nurse and author of "Nursing the Nurse," who opens up about her personal battle with burnout just six months into her career. Discover how her book, program, and innovative app aim to support nurses and shift workers by fostering resilience and helping them align their personal values with professional responsibilities.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Josh Porthouse (00:00):
The views expressed in this podcast are
solely those of the podcast hostand guest and do not
necessarily represent those ofour distribution partners,
supporting businessrelationships or supported
audience.
Welcome to Transacting Value,where we talk about practical
(00:22):
applications for instigatingself-worth when dealing with
each other and even withinourselves, where we foster a
podcast listening experiencethat lets you hear the power of
a value system for managingburnout, establishing boundaries
, fostering community andfinding identity.
My name is Josh Porthouse, I'myour host and we are redefining
sovereignty of character.
(00:42):
This is why values still holdvalue.
This is Transacting Value.
Jeanelle Classen (00:49):
Many nurses actually don't realize that
they're working and living in avalues mismatch and that's what
leads to your moral injury andyour mental health concerns,
because you're constantly livingin a battle almost.
Josh Porthouse (01:06):
Value on Transacting value.
Training to be a nurse iscomplicated and grueling enough,
but what happens when youneglect yourself in the process
or when you don't know who totalk to, how to talk to or what
advice to take in the process?
Today we're talking with theauthor of Nursing the Nurse the
ultimate six-step guide tobeating burnout.
(01:28):
She's also got an app.
She's also got a walkthroughprogram to fix some of this.
Her name is Janelle KlassenGuys, I'm Josh Bordaus, I'm your
host and from SDYT Media.
This is Transacting Value.
Janelle, how are you doing?
Jeanelle Classen (01:45):
Hello, thank you so much for having me.
Yes, I love that introduction,because what do you choose?
How do?
Josh Porthouse (01:55):
you navigate it, oh man.
So here's something that I'velearned real quick is that
there's a lot of differentindustries and applications.
Especially when you're new,you're learning the science and
the material and the doctrineand publications and resources,
but then you've got to navigateyou in the process.
(02:16):
It's like puberty in highschool is the first exposure to
that dichotomy.
And then whatever industry youchoose medicine for you, defense
for me it's all the same sortof problem set.
So I'm really looking forwardto this conversation, but let me
just say I appreciate youtaking time out of your morning
and just a willingness to sharesome of it.
So thank you for your time andyour insight 100%.
Jeanelle Classen (02:40):
I love conversations like this, so I'll
do my very best to be fullypresent.
As I said, we were just brieflytalking before.
I've got my kids in thebackground, so there's a small
chance I might have to jump out,but otherwise, you know I'm
here for this conversation.
I can talk about this for hoursand hours, because I am so
passionate about exactly that,like living congruently with
(03:01):
your values and actuallyrealizing what are they, because
so many of us don't actuallyknow what they are.
And then we're wondering whywe're experiencing what we're
experiencing, and it's usuallybecause we're living out of sync
with them.
Josh Porthouse (03:15):
So, yeah, yeah, absolutely so.
Let's start there then.
I mentioned earlier that yourpreference was in medicine, so
let's just set the baseline herefor everybody who's just
jumping in and watching theconversation and listening.
Who are you, janelle?
Where are you actually from asa person?
And then, what are theseconsiderations that are helping
(03:36):
you focus on nursing andmedicine and your perspective?
Jeanelle Classen (03:40):
Yeah for sure.
So yes, my name is JanelleKlassen.
I am a registered nurse here inAustralia, so I've been nursing
for coming on five years now.
Man, it's not that longcompared to many.
However, I very quickly cametumbling down, came crashing
down in my own bout of burnoutwithin the first six months of
(04:01):
starting my career.
And essentially, yeah, and Imean, you know it may or may not
have happened during this timeperiod, you know, end 2019,
early 2020.
Don't know what happened there,but I did burn out.
So you know, I really have noidea.
No, in all seriousness, ithappened in the first few months
(04:24):
of COVID.
And no surprise there, becauseI always say this if the skill
of and I pay very closeattention to my words if the
skill of self-care was drilledinto me as much as doing my
documentation was drilled intome in nursing school, we'd be
having an entirely differentconversation.
(04:44):
We might not even be having aconversation because we get
drilled.
You know, you ask a nurse, youask any medical professional.
What is one of the first thingsyou learn in med school?
It's do your documentation andthen PS, make sure you look
after yourself.
Okay, well, how do I do that?
What does that look like?
Okay, well, how do I do that?
(05:06):
What does that look like?
Um, you know, because as soon asI started my career, I started
noticing very, very quickly,like I said, within the first
six months, I wasn't sleepingwell, I wasn't eating well, my
personal relationships startedbreaking down.
The thought of going into workfilled me with anxiety, you know
it was.
It was horrific, um and I Iapproached my clinical nurse
(05:27):
educator, who's supposed to bekind of like um, the senior on
the floor.
She's supposed to be someonethat you can come to with a
question and get a genuineanswer, and the answer that I
got was get used to it, it's notgoing to change.
Not very useful.
And so when I offered to kindof look into it further and and
(05:52):
see if we can find a solution toit again, the response was no,
don't add that to your plate,you know if you already got so
much going on blah, blah, and Iwas like, well, I'm not just
gonna let this happen to me.
And that's what led me to tocreating.
You know's what led me tocreating the book, creating the
program, creating the app,because I just realized very
quickly how little support therewas that was tailored to the
(06:12):
very unique needs of nurses, orshift workers, for that matter.
Josh Porthouse (06:16):
So yeah, Okay, your, I guess, burnout origin
story.
I'm sorry, but it's not thatoriginal.
Actually, there's a lot ofpeople that are experienced I
don't know about six months in anew industry, but some of that
may be a learning curve, I don'tknow.
What about it do you thinkcaused you to burn out, though,
(06:41):
like the friction, the puttingin more effort than you thought
was being appreciated orrecognized, the time demand, I
mean, what was the specificcausation, do you think for you?
Jeanelle Classen (06:52):
yeah, yeah, no , I totally agree, it is not.
It's not unique.
Like I was talking to nurseswho've been 5, 10, 15 years in
the industry and they weretalking about the same stuff.
You know, they were strugglingwith the same stuff and I was
like, oh man, I don't want tobecome this bitter nurse, so,
anyway.
So for me, what was?
I think one of the biggestthings for me was there's this
(07:13):
massive drinking culture.
There's massive toxic guilttripping culture in the in the
nursing world and in otherindustries as well.
But obviously I can speak tonurses and you know, there's
this whole thing of like oh, Ican't wait for my glass of wine
Sorry, I mean bottle of wine athome after the shift, like you
know, I deserve it.
And it's like don't get mewrong, I've got nothing against
(07:36):
drinking wine.
My husband and I have, or usedto have I don't even know if
it's current a wine subscriptionLike wine is good.
Wine subscription like wine isgood.
The problem comes when you'rewanting to grab a glass of wine,
bottle of wine every time aftershift and that's the only thing
that will get you to calm down.
Um, so I think for me it was,you know, this guilt trip around
picking up double shifts whenwe were understaffed, because
(07:58):
understaffing is a chronic issuewhere, you know, we've gotten
as a saying, oh like, what aboutyour colleagues, what about
your patients?
If you don't pick up this extrashift, we're going to be short,
and it's like.
Well, of course I will do it,because I'm a nurse, like I'm
supposed to be, this caringperson, giving, giving, giving.
I always say that nurses need tolearn how to become healthily
(08:19):
selfish, because they're, youknow, I was talking with someone
last night, actually, and shewas saying that nurses who, um,
they think they need to give allthe time, but and?
And we think that selfishness isthis very negative word, but
when you look it up, it'sactually, it's actually not a
negative word, it's just, uh,looking after yourself as well.
(08:41):
Um, you know, depends on whatcontext you use it, of course,
but you know, it was just.
It just comes back down to thatof creating that balance
between just giving, pouringfrom an empty cup, versus also
allowing to receive and allowingto set yourself boundaries, and
that's where your values comein, and I know we're going to
talk about our values in aminute.
So, you know, it's just so, soimportant that many nurses
(09:02):
actually don't realize thatthey're working and living in a
values mismatch and that's whatleads to your moral injury and
your mental health concerns,because you're constantly living
in in a battle almost of likeyeah I'm supposed to be doing
this one thing and yet I valuethis other thing, and they're
just constantly in conflict.
Josh Porthouse (09:26):
Yeah, and I think that the biomechanical
conflict that results justcomplicates your stress way far
over, and maybe exponentiallyabove, your tolerance for it
which doesn't help anythingeither.
No, no, yeah, yeah, okay, sorry, go ahead no no, no, that's
what's what I was gonna ask you.
(09:46):
What about for you in your case?
Jeanelle Classen (09:48):
yeah.
So for me, I think it was amatter of, like I a very I was
like I was dull-eyed coming intothe industry, like many of us
are.
As soon as you come out of your, your training or you study or
whatever, I was like, oh, I'mgonna be saving and I'm going to
be the best team member thatthere is, and, like you know, to
my own horn, I do think I'm agood nurse.
However, I didn't know, Ididn't know how to set those
(10:12):
boundaries and I actually didn'tknow consciously what my values
were around creating work-lifebalance.
What my values were around um,you know, how how much do I work
over time, how many shifts Iaccept for over time?
Because I was regularly workingdouble shifts, and so in
Australia, shifts are eithereight hours or 12 hours.
(10:33):
I think it's very, very similarin other parts of the world and
so for me, I was like working16 hour shifts, because I was
picking up doubles, because Ifelt guilty that my colleagues
were going to be understaffed orthat my patients were going to
be neglected, and then Iapproached my nurse manager and
said, hey, like I'm reallystruggling, what can we do?
(10:57):
That just like we're just doingthe same thing over and over
again and you guys are sayingit's not going to change but
like, seriously, we need to dosomething and bless her.
I think this came from a pointof her own burnout.
But she basically just turnedto me and she turned around,
grabbed something out of thecupboard and passed it to me and
said, um, here is a card for um, uh, three free council
(11:22):
sessions on the hospital.
By the way, there's only threefor the entire year.
I hope it helps.
I was like, okay, thank you somuch.
Three council sessions.
You know counseling, great,sure, like we do need it.
You know we work in trauma.
You know you've got patientspassing away, you've got abuse,
you've got exhaustion.
(11:42):
Three council sessions isn'tgoing to change anything.
Um, and, and that's why I waslike, okay, mental health is, is
goes beyond just threecounseling sessions, um, and
burnout as well, because it'sjust it's burnout is, it's your,
it's your physical, it's youremotional, mental, physical, all
(12:02):
all of the things that arerunning on empty and I'm not
saying that you need to haveeverything empty before you
reach burnout, but it's.
All of those are taxed andthat's what leads to burnout.
Josh Porthouse (12:18):
All right, folks , sit tight and we'll be right
back on Transacting Value.
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Jeanelle Classen (12:54):
It's your physical, it's your emotional,
mental, physical, all of thethings that are running on empty
and I'm not saying that youneed to have everything empty
before you reach burnout, butit's all of those are are taxed
and that's what leads to burnoutyeah, yeah, absolutely trying
to find a balance, I think onlycomes with experience, because
(13:18):
otherwise you don't know whatyou don't know.
Josh Porthouse (13:20):
you're trying to perform and do well and, like
you said, prove to yourself you,you're capable, right, anything
and everything in between.
That is no different in, atleast in the us case, our
department of defense.
It's the exact same thing.
And then eventually, this isn'talways the case, okay, but I
think this is going to be a verysimilar, uh, parallel concept
(13:43):
where eventually you get alittle experience, or enough
experience, whatever it is,respective to each person's
purview and you start to see Idon't want to become that person
if I stay around longer andthey're everywhere the more you
see them.
It's like I'm looking for a redscooter I've never seen.
(14:05):
Wait, there's a red scooter,hold on, there's another.
My neighbor's got three redscooters and you just start to
see it everywhere.
The pattern how do yourecommend, based on your book,
your research, your experience,whatever you prefer, but how do
you recommend working throughthat?
Jeanelle Classen (14:29):
Because, you stayed after you identified it.
No, you know, I laugh becauseit is exactly like how many I
see.
So many nurses, so manyprofessionals leave the industry
because they think, hey, I, Imust not be cut out for it
anymore, or maybe I was nevercut out for it, or this is the
(14:50):
only way that I'm going tosurvive.
I must quit.
And my whole mission is to helpequip nurses and empower them,
saying there's a, there's athird option.
That third option is learningthe skills necessary to maintain
a healthy balance between beingthe best nurse that you can be,
(15:13):
that you want to be, that manyof us um, couldn't, you know,
trained hard to be um and thenalso being present for your
loved ones, being there foryourself, looking after your own
wellbeing so that you can havea long, sustainable career, and
doing that guilt-free, becausethe guilt part is a massive one
(15:37):
In the industry.
In life, we think, like I saidbefore, we need to just give,
give, give and then, as soon aswe want to just take a little
bit, as soon as we have thatsort of what about me?
Need to just give, give, giveand then, as soon as we want to
just take a little bit, as soonas we have that sort of what
about me?
We're like, no, I shouldn't, Ishouldn't, it's not for me, I'm
not deserving, I'm not worthy.
So I think you know youmentioned earlier about how
(15:59):
things get better withexperience and I must say I
agree to a point with that yes,you get better with experience.
However, when it comes to atoxic environment that we work
in and I'm interrupting myselfbecause we often hear nurses or
medical staff saying the medicalsystem is broken.
(16:20):
And I mean the medical systemis broken in that it's not
broken in that when someonepresents with, let's say, chest
pain, we usually know and weusually are able to manage that
and someone will go home andthey'll be okay.
However, why do nurses stillburn out, like?
(16:41):
Why do we still have such highdropout rates?
Why do we have, you know,burnout rates and mental health
concerns?
And it's not necessarilybecause the medical treatment
aspect is broken, it's becauseour work culture aspect is
broken.
There's this whole culturearound nurses eating their young
, going like.
I went through it, so you mustgo through it.
It's like you know, yeah, likeit's like haha, your turn and
(17:07):
it's.
Josh Porthouse (17:07):
That's just, and if you don't, then you didn't
earn it you didn't have it astough as we did, yeah yeah,
exactly like you know this it'syou must.
Jeanelle Classen (17:15):
You must do this because I, because I did,
now it's your turn, and and thatin and of itself just goes to
show how.
That's just one little insightinto the toxic culture, because
then you start having people youknow nurses going so, and so
you know you start having likeback, uh, what do you call it
(17:38):
bullying?
You start having gossiping andit's just like not a safe
environment to be working inwhen you're supposed to be
trusting each other with otherpeople's lives um and so yeah,
anyway, um, in terms of toanswer your question sorry, I
know, I just went a little bitof a roundabout.
Um, I'm so sorry, I want you torepeat your question.
Sorry, I know, I just went on alittle bit of a roundabout.
I'm so sorry.
I want you to repeat yourquestion because I want to make
(17:59):
sure I really answer it ratherthan going on a tangent.
Josh Porthouse (18:02):
Well, so essentially, my question is how
did you manage to stay around?
Jeanelle Classen (18:07):
Right, of course, of course.
So for me, after I had thatinitial conversation with my
nurse manager and my clinicaleducator, who both said like
here's your counseling sessions.
You know, get used to it, it'snot going to change.
It took me on a, on a journey,it took me on a rabbit hole, um,
to try and figure out like,well, I don't want to become
(18:30):
those bitter nurses and Igenuinely love what I do.
How do I keep loving what I do?
How do I stop resenting it?
Because I started seeingresentment creeping in, you know
, like dread, and I startednoticing like the resources that
were available to help manageshift work, to help manage
(18:50):
stress, to help manage all thesethings were tailored to
everything but nurses.
It was tailored to CEOs who forsome reason, have the capacity
to wake up at 4 am every morningand have an hour of power.
Or for, you know, like nursesdon't do that.
Or for stay-at-home moms, whostay-at-home moms work hard,
(19:10):
like I'm currently stay-at-homewhile I look after my two young
kids but it was tailored to themwhere they didn't have to get
up and come home and do this anddo that Like it's just managing
a household is one thing in andof itself.
Whereas nurses wear that hat,they wear the nurse's hat, they
usually wear the partner hat,the mother hat, you know all the
hats.
And so I was like, okay, well,how am I going to tailor this to
(19:33):
nurses?
And I started to createresources that I could tailor to
the very unique needs Because,like I said before, there's so
many hats to wear, and then youthrow shift work into the mix
and then you start having sleepissues, you start having, you
know, metabolic issues, so, likeyou know, you're not eating.
Well, because, you're eithersnacking because you need that
(19:54):
sugar rush or you're snackingbecause you're emotional eating
because of the stress and thetrauma that you experience, and
and I kind of that's what led tomy six steps.
Uh, in my book, because I Iidentified that there's six
aspects to this is just simpleand it's not a one-size-fits-all
, it's very much I alwaysadvocate for these aspects are
(20:17):
aspects.
The nitty-gritty inside of itis going to be individual to
what works for you, because youknow, in my first I, if you, if
you don't mind, I'm happy to runthrough the six steps that I've
got in my book yeah, go ahead,yeah, great.
So the first, the first step.
I always say like you need toknow where you want to go.
You know it's like chunking ina, a suburb or a state or
(20:40):
whatever equivalent you've gotum into a gps versus putting in
an exact address like it's anolder, it's becoming an older
saying now, but like it's so, sotrue, it's like if you just
kind of, you know, shoot fromthe the hip or go like gunshot
approach, you're not reallygoing to get where you want to
(21:01):
go.
Josh Porthouse (21:01):
Yeah that's the wonderland.
Jeanelle Classen (21:04):
Yeah, exactly.
So you've got to say like Iwant to go here, this is what I
want, and even if you, then it'slike the whole, like shoot for
the.
Was it the moon?
You'll land on a star orwhatever.
Josh Porthouse (21:16):
Stars, you'll land on a star or whatever stars
you hit the moon or something.
Jeanelle Classen (21:18):
Yeah, yeah, exactly like there's something.
And so it's exactly that like,even if you don't get to that
exact same spot, you are goingto get closer to it in that
direction and see it.
So that's the first one.
And so I actually I don't knowif you're familiar with the
wheel of life.
Um, it's a very, very popular,for the most part self-help
(21:38):
personal development tool whereyou essentially rate yourself in
various aspects of your life,so that is usually your
relationships, finance, so manyI can't even remember.
There's, I think, eight of them.
And I took that and I tailoredit to nurses, so I said like,
how are you feeling in terms ofyour sleep?
How are you feeling in terms ofyour nutrition, your exercise,
(21:58):
all these things?
Um, so that we can get aclearer picture of where am I at
, because it's one thing to knowwhere you want to go, but if
you don't know where you're at,you still don't know what you
need to get there.
So that's what leads into thesecond step of like
self-awareness leads toself-care.
Josh Porthouse (22:19):
Alrighty, folks, sit tight and we'll be right
back on Transacting Value.
Join us for Transacting Value,where we discuss practical
applications of personal values,every Monday at 9am on our
website,transactingvaluepodcastcom,
wednesdays at 5pm and Sundays atnoon on wreathsacrossamericaorg
slash radio.
Jeanelle Classen (22:40):
It's one thing to know where you want to go,
but if you don't know whereyou're at, you still don't know
what you need to get there.
So that's what leads into thesecond step of, like,
self-awareness leads toself-care, and that's where we
start looking at, okay, what aremy values, what are my beliefs,
what are things that have, like, my defining moments, what are
the things that I have I havecome from, that influenced me to
(23:02):
where I am now, and how mightthat influence me as I move
towards my goal?
Um, because, again, if we'renot self-aware, you can't do
anything about something youdon't know um and so how often
do you?
I don't know if you've talked toyou've probably talked to many
people like me of they don'tactually know they're in burnout
, they think that it's normal,they think this is just the way
(23:23):
things are.
Like I say, like you need toknow where you're coming from
before you can get anywhere.
So that's, those are the twothings.
You don't want to know whereyou're going, you want to know
where you're coming from.
And then the last four aspectskind of build on that.
We look at what is sleep and howdo you manage sleep when you're
a shift worker?
Because if you can't sleep,you're going to be a zombie,
(23:45):
you're going to be makingmistakes, you're going to be
grumpy, you're going to try andsleep days away, which is not
really great for your mentalhealth, is it?
Like you know?
You're just sleeping days onend, you're not going into
social interactions, you'rebecoming more and more isolated.
It's just a, you know, a spiral.
We're headed for disaster.
Then we start looking at habitsand getting organized and
(24:07):
managing all the balls that arein the air because of the many
roles that we play, all the hatsthat we wear.
We look at eating and nutrition, because, even though the
nutrition might fall into habits, nutrition in and of itself is
again one of the biggest thingsI noticed.
For me, when I was on nightshift especially, I wasn't able
(24:29):
to maintain a very good eatingroutine or anything like that.
Like I said before, I don'tknow what the gifting rules are
like in the States, but I knowfor Australia.
Here we're not allowed to begifted or be thanked in any way
other than cards that are foreveryone, flowers that are for
(24:52):
everyone, so on the ward, orloll or lollies.
Josh Porthouse (24:55):
food or you mean as a nurse?
Jeanelle Classen (24:58):
oh, I have no idea yeah, so we're not allowed
to receive anything other thanthose things.
Um, and so when someone wantsto thank us, like even obviously
people they were like thank youso much for doing this now,
yeah, sure.
So like how often do we havethis lollies or pizza or
whatever sitting at the nurse'sdesk?
It's like 2 am in the morningand you're just mindlessly
(25:21):
eating, snacking, whatever 100,and so you know like we go into
nutrition.
And then the last one that's myabsolute favorite and I think is
the most vital skill thatanyone but no matter whether
they're a nurse or not can learnis learning how to unwind,
learning how to leave work atthe door and be present in the
(25:41):
next phase of wherever you'regoing into, whether that's a
family gathering or your ownfamily or whatever, because how
often do we carry the baggage ofyou know, I'm still wearing my
nurse's hat of I just lost apatient or I've been physically
or emotionally, verbally abusedor anything like that.
And then we come into home.
I remember for me during my lowmoments, I would just be like
(26:03):
no one, talk to me, leave mealone.
I would go into my room, Iwould either sit in the shower,
have a cry or go to sleep, andit's just because I didn't know
how to deal with everything thatI had experienced?
Yeah, exactly, and so that isthe biggest skill that I learned
.
It's my favorite chapter, likemy absolute favorite chapter.
(26:24):
I love writing that one, andI'm actually in the process of
doing a second edition of thewhole book because I've learned
even more since then and I wantto, you know, just make it
better and better.
So those are the six steps, andthat's why I think it's so
vital to then start taking eachaspect and start tailoring it to
.
Okay, I'm going to try this forme.
(26:44):
Is this part working, yes or no?
If it's not working, let metweak it.
But these brackets, theseumbrellas, I found were pivotal
in kind of creating a bit morebalance between work life
burnout.
Josh Porthouse (26:59):
So, yeah, that's it, though right balancing the
burnout, not avoiding theburnout, because it's a matter
of time yeah, yeah.
Jeanelle Classen (27:07):
And, like I, I recently came across this
beautiful phrase of finding.
It's not necessarily findingperfect balance or like equal,
you know, um division betweenaspects.
It's finding harmony, whatworks best together.
And I love that so much.
It's so good because, if wethink like our balance must be
even like no, no, it's okay forone thing to be a little bit
(27:31):
heavier than the other, as longas they work together, and I
love that it's a, you know, aseesaw like at a playground, the
board on the fulcrum, yeah.
Josh Porthouse (27:41):
Yeah, it's okay for one side to be heavier than
the other.
You just gotta work together tomake it happen, yeah exactly,
absolutely absolutely, and thepoint you brought up too.
I guess I had totally forgottenthe intricacies of the movie
and the play and the musical andthe show.
But alice in wonderland, youmentioned it earlier and I till
just now.
The only thing that went throughmy head a couple minutes ago
(28:02):
was when the cheshire cat wastalking to alice saying well, if
you don't know where you wantto go, it doesn't matter how you
get there, and she was tryingto figure out how to make her
way around.
But as you were talking, Ithink unless I'm totally
misrepresenting this, this plotline.
But initially she's just tryingto figure out who she is and
her place in the world, and soshe's so worried about the
(28:23):
future that that getsrepresented early right and the,
the rabbit and the uh, thewhite rabbit and the clock and
he's late and all these things,and she's just as anxious but
she's unwitting to it but no, no, clue yeah.
No, and then she runs in I maybe misrepresenting the sequence
here, but eventually she runsinto the Mad Hatter and he's got
all these hats at this teaparty and she's like, oh, this
(28:44):
is great, all these hats.
And until right now I was like,yeah, he's got a lot of hats.
And then you said wearing allthe hats.
And I it okay, yeah, I wastoday I was today years old when
I realized that okay so thanksfor that yeah, mad hatter.
Jeanelle Classen (28:57):
Like you know what you know.
When we don't know which hatwe're wearing, we become mad
yeah, and I was.
Josh Porthouse (29:02):
I just took it at face value.
I was like well, that's an oddcharacter, yeah, until right
this moment.
So I appreciate that but yeah,yeah yeah, so she's trying to
figure out all these roles right, sort of subconsciously, and,
and maybe it was that weirdmushroom trip that took her the
whole way through, but I don'tknow what did it exactly, but
the point being this, catalystright and then I, I think it was
even.
Uh, there was a centipede, I'mpretty sure.
(29:24):
Who said you're not alice?
I know alice, she was here.
You're not alice, she's like no,but I am alice no no, no,
you're not.
And he was like the harmony, Ithink, character right between
the chaos and the uncertaintyand the responsibilities, and
(29:46):
the future and the past and andbeing in the present.
Obviously, at the end, when shefinally figured out who she was
in the world and then I justhappened to wake up, I guess in
in the East India tea company,but you know it it all sort of
like came together as you weredescribing your six steps, that
what a man, what a wildrevelation.
(30:07):
That was just crazy.
But I totally agree with youfor all of those reasons.
And it's interesting toobecause the theme is everywhere
but the understanding, theactual competency, and then what
to do with it, let alone thefact that it's okay isn't no
(30:28):
exactly.
It's so strange.
It's become like this, or atleast in the US, I assume
globally it's become like thisentertainment mechanism, not
this edutainment mechanism, andI think that's a downfall.
Jeanelle Classen (30:41):
Yeah, 100%.
No, it's definitely, it'salmost.
You know, like I said earlier,it's a bit of a rite of passage
in terms of, like you know, haha, your turn.
It's also very much almost likea rite of passage to say to
start complaining to each other.
It's like the only thing wetalk about these days.
Uh, in the north, in the, thebreak rooms, especially, of like
, oh, like I'm so, I'm soexhausted, I'm so this like.
(31:02):
It's almost like thiscompetition of who is more
exhausted than who.
Oh, yeah, same thing in the dodyeah, exactly, I don't think
that we do it because it's acompetition.
Like right then and there oflike I'm gonna, you know, prove
to you how, how I think it's asubconscious thing, it's become
this we've normalized feelingthis way so much that we don't
(31:22):
even know it's happened and wedon't even know that it's not
normal.
We don't even remember what itwas like before.
Um, because we're just, we'rejust, we're already, we're kind
of, you know, we're justperplexed it's crazy, yeah, it's
like.
Josh Porthouse (31:37):
It's like you norm, the, the demoralization of
the environment is such a it isit's a culture.
Well, I guess it's asubcultural thing, right,
because it may happen toeverybody.
But I don't know that.
I don't know enough about everyindustry to say that it's that
ubiquitous.
Does mcdonald's happen?
Or hungry jacks?
I don't know, maybe.
Well, you know, what's funny isbecause you know it's that
ubiquitous.
Jeanelle Classen (31:56):
Does McDonald's happen or Hungry
Jack's?
I don't know, maybe.
Well, you know, what's funny isbecause you know it's just.
I talk to nurses all over theworld.
I talk to them in Australia,obviously, new Zealand, canada,
europe, us, and I've talked to afew nurses in other, smaller
countries.
Same thing You'd think that wewere if it wasn't for our
(32:17):
differences in time zone or inaccents.
You'd think we're talking aboutthe same hospital, the same
ward, maybe even the same people.
Josh Porthouse (32:22):
Yeah, All right, folks sit tight and we'll be
right back on Transacting Value.
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Josh Porthouse (33:20):
same people, yeah, how is that universal like
that blows my mind a little bit, but it is.
It is, yeah, but, but it's like.
It's like all of thesepositions that have this
enduring exposure to high stressor just enduring exposure to
occupational stressors.
I think eventually youacclimatize because you need to
disassociate to a degree youneed to detach intentionally
just to function.
It's too chaotic, otherwiseright.
(33:42):
So let me ask you this this isa segment of the show called
Developing Character, d-d-dDeveloping Character, and it's
about value systems and here'swhy I'm bringing this up.
And it's about value systemsand here's why I'm bringing this
up.
(34:03):
My working theory is that valuesare a grounding mechanism for
every individual person in ahigh stress situation, not
necessarily a position, but tobetter influence your behaviors,
your cognition, and thenwhatever your actions are to
process sort of like getting thetrain moving.
Your actions are to processsort of like getting the train
moving.
And so I'm curious and maybefor the sake of commonality here
, but two questions asvulnerable as you want to be,
(34:27):
it's up to you, but that has tostart somewhere.
It's not all necessarily.
Nurture some of its nature,because you don't know any
better as a kid, like you said.
So in the beginning, what aresome of the values that you were
exposed to or that you werebrought up around?
Jeanelle Classen (34:38):
So I mean for me it's always been one of
service, Like for my family.
It's very much like, you know,you should be putting others
first and it's.
You know I sometimes blame myyes, I'm an Australian now, I'm
originally from South Africa andso it's a very it's an older
culture, it's a more traditionalculture.
(34:59):
So it's very much like, um,it's not so much in my household
, but definitely they were likelittle elements of it, of like
children especially are seen andnot heard.
And so it's very much like, youknow, trying meekness, but not
in a weak, not in a in aempowered way.
Meekness, but not in anempowered way, meekness in a
(35:19):
forced you need to be quiet,like this is not your place type
of thing.
So very much like try and keepyour emotions in, try and keep
your opinions to yourself.
I mean I failed miserably atthose tests.
I have offended people left,right and centre in my life and
(35:40):
I'm not wearing that as a badgeof honour, more of a humble
admission that sometimes I comeacross as very direct, very
strong, and I don't necessarilymean it.
But it was very important to me.
Even though the familial valueswere seen and not heard, my
personal values have always beenspeak up for what's right, and
(36:02):
so, um, I think those two yes,they're a little bit in conflict
, but those two together shapedmy, my go-getter spirit, because
I definitely believe that Idon't just let life happen to me
, I want to do things so thatthings can start working for me
and with me.
Um, or, you know, I can startworking with and for it, um, you
(36:26):
know, depending on the scenario.
Josh Porthouse (36:28):
So, yeah, harmony, love it, love it All
right.
So then my second question isand you alluded to this a little
bit right in terms of speakingup for what's right, but now, a
couple decades after the fact, abit of time into your sort of
nurture phase of life, have theychanged?
(36:49):
What are some of your valuesnow?
Jeanelle Classen (36:51):
I think, yeah, it's kind of, it's kind of
taken those.
I mean, obviously there's morethan just two values that anyone
holds, but those two stand outto me at the moment and I think
for me now they they're evenstronger in that I I mean, I
mean, I'm a nurse, so my, mydesire to serve is there and
like it's definitely integral tothe person that I am.
However, I am much moreconfident in my ability to stand
(37:16):
up for us right.
I'm much more willing to, um,risk it to be able to to.
You know, I might be separateor I might be, I might stand out
, not necessarily in a good way,um, but it does mean that I'm
able to to take that next step,because otherwise I would have
after that those conversationswith my senior nurses, I
(37:37):
probably would have just satback and gone oh, that's just
the way that it is.
Oh like I guess this is, this ismy new norm now.
Um, and so I think again, likeif I didn't have those values to
stand up for, what's right tostand up for fight for right to
stand up for, fight for what Iwant, I don't think I'd be
(37:58):
nursing or I would be a verymiserable nurse.
Josh Porthouse (38:02):
Yeah, absolutely Absolutely.
Finding something to latch onto, like I said, to ground, you, I
think, makes all the differenceand it's the same thing here in
the Department of Defense.
You, I think, makes all thedifference and it's the same
thing here in the Department ofDefense.
I worked in Darwin a few yearsback with the First Armored
Regiment and they had verysimilar points of view towards
(38:23):
burnout, but also towards its Iguess we'll call it remediation
through some of theseconsiderations, and it made all
the difference.
I mean, they were collectivelya very rambunctious group of
individuals and really enjoyedhaving fun and being around each
other and everything that comeswith that kind of camaraderie.
But they complained quite a bit.
(38:45):
I mean, there was still plentyof circumstantial things.
We were all experiencing thesame things.
It didn't matter that we werein different hemispheres,
militaries, branches I mean itwas all the same.
Just like you brought up withthe nursing community and the
crazy thing, I'm not a shiftworker but we're finding the
same things industry to industrynow as well, right, which?
(39:06):
is such an interesting, I think,phenomenon that I don't know if
it's complacency or complicity.
I'm not too sure if it'signorance or academics.
I don't know that there is afix.
Maybe it's just human natureand some of it is.
You just have to deal with it.
But I don't think dealing withit means accepting it as it is.
I think it can also beaccepting it as it could be or
(39:29):
in spite of itself, learning toaccept it.
Jeanelle Classen (39:32):
Yeah, that's powerful 100% agree, and I
always say that there's somethings that people go.
They'll really focus in theircomplaints or their woes on
things that are out of theircontrol and I'm like, okay, well
, yes, those things suck, butlet's focus on what you can
(39:55):
control.
What are the things that youcan take and what are the
actions you can take, how, whatare the mindsets you can have
around it?
Because if you're choosing to,if you're choosing to have a
negative mindset on somethinglike similar to what you
mentioned about the scooters, ifyou start noticing, you know,
red scooters, like continue,continue with that analogy and
that metaphor of you know, ifyou're noticing the red scooters
(40:16):
, all the red flags, all the youknow negative things, you're
going to notice more and more ofthat.
And I'm not saying live inoblivion or be oblivious to
things or like turn a blind eye,but I do think that you need to
think about okay, is thisactually something I can do
something about?
And if it's not, it's okay forme to let this go.
(40:37):
How can I then work towardsthat?
And you know, turn to me.
I always say, like if you startwith you, you might actually see
a change in your surroundings.
And it's not just.
You know, it's not alwayssomeone else's fault.
It's not always someone else'sresponsibility to fix the thing.
Sometimes it's us that we needto work on and sometimes sorry,
(41:01):
I'm interrupting myself I thinkit's one of those things like
sometimes the problem is us, notin a blame blaming way, but
like if something is not workingand it doesn't look like things
are going to change, maybe Ican do something about it and
not just wait for someone elseto take the lead.
Maybe it's time for me to takecharge.
It could be something as smallas saying no to a double shift
(41:24):
for the third time in a row.
It can be something as simple assaying no to that guilt trip
and just graciously saying Ireally acknowledge that you're
going to be understaffed if Idon't pick up this double shift.
But for my safety and for yoursand for those of my patients, I
need to say no today.
I need rest, I need to spendtime with my loved ones, I need
(41:45):
to look after me.
You can't argue with that ifyou do it in a gracious way.
Josh Porthouse (41:51):
Yeah, man, absolutely.
And I think the other sort ofmaybe partnered aspect to that
is sometimes, even if you try totake the ownership, you can't
do anything about it.
Jeanelle Classen (42:04):
Exactly.
Josh Porthouse (42:05):
And so it maybe does have to be that way, but
you can still do you in theprocess like you did, and you
find ways to better manage andcope and process.
So, for the sake of time, Ihave two more quick questions
for you, yes, and one of them isthen if you had to try to
summarize, or if you alreadyhave summarized, a way that your
(42:28):
values are being transactedthrough your behavior, through
your thought process andcognition, into your actions,
what's the benefit?
Do you think that you'velearned from identifying that
these values have been importantto you in the process?
Jeanelle Classen (42:45):
Look, I think when you live in congruence with
your values, you're living inharmony, because when you're
living in conflicting with yourvalues, that's what leads to
moral injury.
Like, for example, when you, Iwas working with an allied
(43:06):
health professional I think Ican't remember now whether she
was a physiotherapist or anoccupational therapist.
Either way, she was telling mea story, or an occupational
therapist.
Either way, she was telling mea story of during covid, when
you know how pretty mucheveryone was in their own
segregated, separated rooms,everyone individually, very
isolated, and this elderly ladyhad no family who came visit her
(43:28):
.
And this allied healthprofessional came in, did her
thing and she was about to leave.
And she says that the patientsays please don't leave me,
please don't leave me, I don'twant to be alone.
And I get a tear up when Ithink about it, because how
often I've heard patients saydon't leave me, I don't want to
be alone.
(43:49):
And I I'm thinking and thisallied health professional had
the same thing of if I don'tleave this room and move on to
my next patient, I'm going to bepinged for underperformance.
And it's like, you know, thathuman aspect of us wanting to be
like yes, I will be with you.
(44:09):
You don't want to be alone.
Versus, actually, I'm going tolose my job if I do this more
than once or twice.
And then you know that is amassive mismatch in our values.
So then that's what leads to.
In many ways it's a trauma.
It's a brief moment of time oftrauma, of like I actually have
(44:31):
to put this person's desperatecry for help away and push that
away so that I can then, youknow, reach some kpi that some
person in the office somewheresaid I must reach, um, yeah, and
so that's one thing.
So for me, being able to tofind that balance between saying
(44:52):
I must leave right now, but Iwill make sure that I come back
and I sit with you for 10minutes, or whatever, and you
know, like, or in that moment,much, much easier said than done
, obviously, but being able tosay, okay, I really want to be
here for you, I will be here forfive, 10 minutes.
And you know calling yourco-workers and saying, look, hey
, like I really need five, 10minutes.
And you know calling yourco-workers and saying, look, hey
(45:13):
, like I really need five, 10minutes.
I'm, you know, I'm going totake that now to be with this
patient, because they need itfor their patient care.
Like you can definitely, youknow, not spin, but spin it in a
way that is more congruent withhow you want to care, how you
want to be.
So that's what I want to sayaround values, like, if you're
(45:35):
living in mismatch, let's go thepositive way.
If you are living congruentlywith your values, you'll find
that you are a happier personoverall, not just at work,
because if you're doing the samething at home and someone is
asking you for something, or youknow, I don any value, name any
(45:56):
value if you're not living incongruence with it and you're
going against it often and likechronically, basically that's,
you're going to be empty, you'regoing to be so, so drained
emotionally because you'rehaving to constantly go no, no,
no, cut off, cut off, cut off,and you become this really numb,
empty shell.
Josh Porthouse (46:16):
It's like soul dust yeah.
Jeanelle Classen (46:18):
Yeah, absolutely so.
That's definitely one thingthat I say.
I love the Demartini he's thevalues guy.
He always says that you willmake time, time, money and
effort available for the thingsthat you value most.
And so if you value someoneelse's opinion over your value
(46:41):
to remain human, you're going tolike you're going to lose your
humanity.
So it's about taking aconscious effort to make effort
and and work towards what isgoing to uphold the values that
I hold, so that I'm not inmismatch.
Josh Porthouse (47:00):
I love it.
I love it.
Then my last question is,assuming all of that is covered
in your book, if people want tofind it, if people want to check
out your resources or followalong with second edition when
it comes out, where do people go?
How do we do it?
Jeanelle Classen (47:17):
Yeah, yeah, thank you.
So my website isnursingthenursecom and so I'm on
Nursing the Nurse pretty muchacross all platforms.
We're currently in massiverebranding from Mindfulness for
Health in massive rebrandingfrom Mindfulness for Health.
So if you're looking fornursingthenursecom, you should
be able to find us.
But, yeah, that's pretty muchwhere everything lives.
(47:39):
I've got free resources onthere.
I love connecting with people.
I've got a beautiful Facebookcommunity as well, so it's all
under the same name.
But, yeah, thank you so much.
It's just so wonderful to beable to share.
You know my passion, which ishelping nurses, and you know,
like I said, I think we might'vementioned this before we start
(47:59):
recording, but take, takenursing in everything that we've
said and insert your industry,insert your situation, because
it's applicable.
Josh Porthouse (48:08):
Absolutely, Absolutely and for everybody.
Well, first off, you're welcome.
But for everybody who's tunedinto this conversation.
Depending on the player you'restreaming it on click, see more.
Click show more and then in thedropdown description for the
conversation, you will see linksto Nursing the Nurse, and you
can get to Janelle's website aswell, track down the book, and
(48:28):
so, if that's easier for you,that's totally an option as well
.
Janelle, I know you've gotcommitments to get to and you
guys have plans you're trying tofulfill today, so I appreciate
it your time, your insight, yourperspective and your
personality and your passion.
It was a great conversation andI couldn't have done it without
you, so thanks for coming onthe show.
Jeanelle Classen (48:49):
Thank you so much.
It's awesome, awesome, awesomeand what an honor to be able to
share this stuff, because it'sso important, and that's what
we're here for.
Right Is to share thoseinsights with others so that
people can know that they're notalone and know that, yes, it's
tough, but if you've got theskills and you equip yourself
with the right stuff, then thereis another way there is a way
(49:11):
out, yeah, or a way through orforward.
Josh Porthouse (49:15):
Exactly yeah yeah, yeah, for everybody else
who's tuning in and listening toor watching the conversation,
depending on where you're comingfrom you can go to our website,
by the waytransactingvaluepodcastcom.
You can listen to otherconversations, re-listen to this
one if you want.
But here's the cool part On thetop right corner of the
homepage it says leave avoicemail.
(49:35):
Now you can click it.
You can tell us what you thinkof the show and I will welcome
that as well.
However, you can also take twominutes and let Chanel know what
you thought of the conversationand her opinion and her book
and give her an audio file andwe will forward it to her as
well.
Guys, so many coolopportunities when it comes to
broadcast media now in 2024,2025 and what everybody's doing
(49:57):
with it.
A voicemail, pretty standardplay.
Now you can do that on a cellphone as well.
So why not with a podcast or tohelp somebody out in their own
brand or book?
But I appreciate everythingthat you guys are doing my team
obviously producing the show,janelle for you coming onto the
show and everybody else's timelistening to and supporting it
as well.
Until next time, that wasTransacting Value.
(50:19):
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Thank you for tuning in andappreciating our value as we all
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(50:40):
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(51:05):
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(51:25):
we'll meet you there.
Until next time.
That was Transacting Value.
The views expressed in this podcast are
solely those of the podcast hostand guest and do not
necessarily represent those ofour distribution partners,
supporting businessrelationships or supported
audience.
Welcome to Transacting Value,where we talk about practical
(00:22):
applications for instigatingself-worth when dealing with
each other and even withinourselves, where we foster a
podcast listening experiencethat lets you hear the power of
a value system for managingburnout, establishing boundaries
, fostering community andfinding identity.
My name is Josh Porthouse, I'myour host and we are redefining
sovereignty of character.
(00:42):
This is why values still holdvalue.
This is Transacting Value.
Jeanelle Classen (00:49):
Many nurses actually don't realize that
they're working and living in avalues mismatch and that's what
leads to your moral injury andyour mental health concerns,
because you're constantly livingin a battle almost.
Josh Porthouse (01:06):
Value on Transacting value.
Training to be a nurse iscomplicated and grueling enough,
but what happens when youneglect yourself in the process
or when you don't know who totalk to, how to talk to or what
advice to take in the process?
Today we're talking with theauthor of Nursing the Nurse the
ultimate six-step guide tobeating burnout.
(01:28):
She's also got an app.
She's also got a walkthroughprogram to fix some of this.
Her name is Janelle KlassenGuys, I'm Josh Bordaus, I'm your
host and from SDYT Media.
This is Transacting Value.
Janelle, how are you doing?
Jeanelle Classen (01:45):
Hello, thank you so much for having me.
Yes, I love that introduction,because what do you choose?
How do?
Josh Porthouse (01:55):
you navigate it, oh man.
So here's something that I'velearned real quick is that
there's a lot of differentindustries and applications.
Especially when you're new,you're learning the science and
the material and the doctrineand publications and resources,
but then you've got to navigateyou in the process.
(02:16):
It's like puberty in highschool is the first exposure to
that dichotomy.
And then whatever industry youchoose medicine for you, defense
for me it's all the same sortof problem set.
So I'm really looking forwardto this conversation, but let me
just say I appreciate youtaking time out of your morning
and just a willingness to sharesome of it.
So thank you for your time andyour insight 100%.
Jeanelle Classen (02:40):
I love conversations like this, so I'll
do my very best to be fullypresent.
As I said, we were just brieflytalking before.
I've got my kids in thebackground, so there's a small
chance I might have to jump out,but otherwise, you know I'm
here for this conversation.
I can talk about this for hoursand hours, because I am so
passionate about exactly that,like living congruently with
(03:01):
your values and actuallyrealizing what are they, because
so many of us don't actuallyknow what they are.
And then we're wondering whywe're experiencing what we're
experiencing, and it's usuallybecause we're living out of sync
with them.
Josh Porthouse (03:15):
So, yeah, yeah, absolutely so.
Let's start there then.
I mentioned earlier that yourpreference was in medicine, so
let's just set the baseline herefor everybody who's just
jumping in and watching theconversation and listening.
Who are you, janelle?
Where are you actually from asa person?
And then, what are theseconsiderations that are helping
(03:36):
you focus on nursing andmedicine and your perspective?
Jeanelle Classen (03:40):
Yeah for sure.
So yes, my name is JanelleKlassen.
I am a registered nurse here inAustralia, so I've been nursing
for coming on five years now.
Man, it's not that longcompared to many.
However, I very quickly cametumbling down, came crashing
down in my own bout of burnoutwithin the first six months of
(04:01):
starting my career.
And essentially, yeah, and Imean, you know it may or may not
have happened during this timeperiod, you know, end 2019,
early 2020.
Don't know what happened there,but I did burn out.
So you know, I really have noidea.
No, in all seriousness, ithappened in the first few months
(04:24):
of COVID.
And no surprise there, becauseI always say this if the skill
of and I pay very closeattention to my words if the
skill of self-care was drilledinto me as much as doing my
documentation was drilled intome in nursing school, we'd be
having an entirely differentconversation.
(04:44):
We might not even be having aconversation because we get
drilled.
You know, you ask a nurse, youask any medical professional.
What is one of the first thingsyou learn in med school?
It's do your documentation andthen PS, make sure you look
after yourself.
Okay, well, how do I do that?
What does that look like?
Okay, well, how do I do that?
(05:06):
What does that look like?
Um, you know, because as soon asI started my career, I started
noticing very, very quickly,like I said, within the first
six months, I wasn't sleepingwell, I wasn't eating well, my
personal relationships startedbreaking down.
The thought of going into workfilled me with anxiety, you know
it was.
It was horrific, um and I Iapproached my clinical nurse
(05:27):
educator, who's supposed to bekind of like um, the senior on
the floor.
She's supposed to be someonethat you can come to with a
question and get a genuineanswer, and the answer that I
got was get used to it, it's notgoing to change.
Not very useful.
And so when I offered to kindof look into it further and and
(05:52):
see if we can find a solution toit again, the response was no,
don't add that to your plate,you know if you already got so
much going on blah, blah, and Iwas like, well, I'm not just
gonna let this happen to me.
And that's what led me to tocreating.
You know's what led me tocreating the book, creating the
program, creating the app,because I just realized very
quickly how little support therewas that was tailored to the
(06:12):
very unique needs of nurses, orshift workers, for that matter.
Josh Porthouse (06:16):
So yeah, Okay, your, I guess, burnout origin
story.
I'm sorry, but it's not thatoriginal.
Actually, there's a lot ofpeople that are experienced I
don't know about six months in anew industry, but some of that
may be a learning curve, I don'tknow.
What about it do you thinkcaused you to burn out, though,
(06:41):
like the friction, the puttingin more effort than you thought
was being appreciated orrecognized, the time demand, I
mean, what was the specificcausation, do you think for you?
Jeanelle Classen (06:52):
yeah, yeah, no , I totally agree, it is not.
It's not unique.
Like I was talking to nurseswho've been 5, 10, 15 years in
the industry and they weretalking about the same stuff.
You know, they were strugglingwith the same stuff and I was
like, oh man, I don't want tobecome this bitter nurse, so,
anyway.
So for me, what was?
I think one of the biggestthings for me was there's this
(07:13):
massive drinking culture.
There's massive toxic guilttripping culture in the in the
nursing world and in otherindustries as well.
But obviously I can speak tonurses and you know, there's
this whole thing of like oh, Ican't wait for my glass of wine
Sorry, I mean bottle of wine athome after the shift, like you
know, I deserve it.
And it's like don't get mewrong, I've got nothing against
(07:36):
drinking wine.
My husband and I have, or usedto have I don't even know if
it's current a wine subscriptionLike wine is good.
Wine subscription like wine isgood.
The problem comes when you'rewanting to grab a glass of wine,
bottle of wine every time aftershift and that's the only thing
that will get you to calm down.
Um, so I think for me it was,you know, this guilt trip around
picking up double shifts whenwe were understaffed, because
(07:58):
understaffing is a chronic issuewhere, you know, we've gotten
as a saying, oh like, what aboutyour colleagues, what about
your patients?
If you don't pick up this extrashift, we're going to be short,
and it's like.
Well, of course I will do it,because I'm a nurse, like I'm
supposed to be, this caringperson, giving, giving, giving.
I always say that nurses need tolearn how to become healthily
(08:19):
selfish, because they're, youknow, I was talking with someone
last night, actually, and shewas saying that nurses who, um,
they think they need to give allthe time, but and?
And we think that selfishness isthis very negative word, but
when you look it up, it'sactually, it's actually not a
negative word, it's just, uh,looking after yourself as well.
(08:41):
Um, you know, depends on whatcontext you use it, of course,
but you know, it was just.
It just comes back down to thatof creating that balance
between just giving, pouringfrom an empty cup, versus also
allowing to receive and allowingto set yourself boundaries, and
that's where your values comein, and I know we're going to
talk about our values in aminute.
So, you know, it's just so, soimportant that many nurses
(09:02):
actually don't realize thatthey're working and living in a
values mismatch and that's whatleads to your moral injury and
your mental health concerns,because you're constantly living
in in a battle almost of likeyeah I'm supposed to be doing
this one thing and yet I valuethis other thing, and they're
just constantly in conflict.
Josh Porthouse (09:26):
Yeah, and I think that the biomechanical
conflict that results justcomplicates your stress way far
over, and maybe exponentiallyabove, your tolerance for it
which doesn't help anythingeither.
No, no, yeah, yeah, okay, sorry, go ahead no no, no, that's
what's what I was gonna ask you.
(09:46):
What about for you in your case?
Jeanelle Classen (09:48):
yeah.
So for me, I think it was amatter of, like I a very I was
like I was dull-eyed coming intothe industry, like many of us
are.
As soon as you come out of your, your training or you study or
whatever, I was like, oh, I'mgonna be saving and I'm going to
be the best team member thatthere is, and, like you know, to
my own horn, I do think I'm agood nurse.
However, I didn't know, Ididn't know how to set those
(10:12):
boundaries and I actually didn'tknow consciously what my values
were around creating work-lifebalance.
What my values were around um,you know, how how much do I work
over time, how many shifts Iaccept for over time?
Because I was regularly workingdouble shifts, and so in
Australia, shifts are eithereight hours or 12 hours.
(10:33):
I think it's very, very similarin other parts of the world and
so for me, I was like working16 hour shifts, because I was
picking up doubles, because Ifelt guilty that my colleagues
were going to be understaffed orthat my patients were going to
be neglected, and then Iapproached my nurse manager and
said, hey, like I'm reallystruggling, what can we do?
(10:57):
That just like we're just doingthe same thing over and over
again and you guys are sayingit's not going to change but
like, seriously, we need to dosomething and bless her.
I think this came from a pointof her own burnout.
But she basically just turnedto me and she turned around,
grabbed something out of thecupboard and passed it to me and
said, um, here is a card for um, uh, three free council
(11:22):
sessions on the hospital.
By the way, there's only threefor the entire year.
I hope it helps.
I was like, okay, thank you somuch.
Three council sessions.
You know counseling, great,sure, like we do need it.
You know we work in trauma.
You know you've got patientspassing away, you've got abuse,
you've got exhaustion.
(11:42):
Three council sessions isn'tgoing to change anything.
Um, and, and that's why I waslike, okay, mental health is, is
goes beyond just threecounseling sessions, um, and
burnout as well, because it'sjust it's burnout is, it's your,
it's your physical, it's youremotional, mental, physical, all
(12:02):
all of the things that arerunning on empty and I'm not
saying that you need to haveeverything empty before you
reach burnout, but it's.
All of those are taxed andthat's what leads to burnout.
Josh Porthouse (12:18):
All right, folks , sit tight and we'll be right
back on Transacting Value.
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Jeanelle Classen (12:54):
It's your physical, it's your emotional,
mental, physical, all of thethings that are running on empty
and I'm not saying that youneed to have everything empty
before you reach burnout, butit's all of those are are taxed
and that's what leads to burnoutyeah, yeah, absolutely trying
to find a balance, I think onlycomes with experience, because
(13:18):
otherwise you don't know whatyou don't know.
Josh Porthouse (13:20):
you're trying to perform and do well and, like
you said, prove to yourself you,you're capable, right, anything
and everything in between.
That is no different in, atleast in the us case, our
department of defense.
It's the exact same thing.
And then eventually, this isn'talways the case, okay, but I
think this is going to be a verysimilar, uh, parallel concept
(13:43):
where eventually you get alittle experience, or enough
experience, whatever it is,respective to each person's
purview and you start to see Idon't want to become that person
if I stay around longer andthey're everywhere the more you
see them.
It's like I'm looking for a redscooter I've never seen.
(14:05):
Wait, there's a red scooter,hold on, there's another.
My neighbor's got three redscooters and you just start to
see it everywhere.
The pattern how do yourecommend, based on your book,
your research, your experience,whatever you prefer, but how do
you recommend working throughthat?
Jeanelle Classen (14:29):
Because, you stayed after you identified it.
No, you know, I laugh becauseit is exactly like how many I
see.
So many nurses, so manyprofessionals leave the industry
because they think, hey, I, Imust not be cut out for it
anymore, or maybe I was nevercut out for it, or this is the
(14:50):
only way that I'm going tosurvive.
I must quit.
And my whole mission is to helpequip nurses and empower them,
saying there's a, there's athird option.
That third option is learningthe skills necessary to maintain
a healthy balance between beingthe best nurse that you can be,
(15:13):
that you want to be, that manyof us um, couldn't, you know,
trained hard to be um and thenalso being present for your
loved ones, being there foryourself, looking after your own
wellbeing so that you can havea long, sustainable career, and
doing that guilt-free, becausethe guilt part is a massive one
(15:37):
In the industry.
In life, we think, like I saidbefore, we need to just give,
give, give and then, as soon aswe want to just take a little
bit, as soon as we have thatsort of what about me?
Need to just give, give, giveand then, as soon as we want to
just take a little bit, as soonas we have that sort of what
about me?
We're like, no, I shouldn't, Ishouldn't, it's not for me, I'm
not deserving, I'm not worthy.
So I think you know youmentioned earlier about how
(15:59):
things get better withexperience and I must say I
agree to a point with that yes,you get better with experience.
However, when it comes to atoxic environment that we work
in and I'm interrupting myselfbecause we often hear nurses or
medical staff saying the medicalsystem is broken.
(16:20):
And I mean the medical systemis broken in that it's not
broken in that when someonepresents with, let's say, chest
pain, we usually know and weusually are able to manage that
and someone will go home andthey'll be okay.
However, why do nurses stillburn out, like?
(16:41):
Why do we still have such highdropout rates?
Why do we have, you know,burnout rates and mental health
concerns?
And it's not necessarilybecause the medical treatment
aspect is broken, it's becauseour work culture aspect is
broken.
There's this whole culturearound nurses eating their young
, going like.
I went through it, so you mustgo through it.
It's like you know, yeah, likeit's like haha, your turn and
(17:07):
it's.
Josh Porthouse (17:07):
That's just, and if you don't, then you didn't
earn it you didn't have it astough as we did, yeah yeah,
exactly like you know this it'syou must.
Jeanelle Classen (17:15):
You must do this because I, because I did,
now it's your turn, and and thatin and of itself just goes to
show how.
That's just one little insightinto the toxic culture, because
then you start having people youknow nurses going so, and so
you know you start having likeback, uh, what do you call it
(17:38):
bullying?
You start having gossiping andit's just like not a safe
environment to be working inwhen you're supposed to be
trusting each other with otherpeople's lives um and so yeah,
anyway, um, in terms of toanswer your question sorry, I
know, I just went a little bitof a roundabout.
Um, I'm so sorry, I want you torepeat your question.
Sorry, I know, I just went on alittle bit of a roundabout.
I'm so sorry.
I want you to repeat yourquestion because I want to make
(17:59):
sure I really answer it ratherthan going on a tangent.
Josh Porthouse (18:02):
Well, so essentially, my question is how
did you manage to stay around?
Jeanelle Classen (18:07):
Right, of course, of course.
So for me, after I had thatinitial conversation with my
nurse manager and my clinicaleducator, who both said like
here's your counseling sessions.
You know, get used to it, it'snot going to change.
It took me on a, on a journey,it took me on a rabbit hole, um,
to try and figure out like,well, I don't want to become
(18:30):
those bitter nurses and Igenuinely love what I do.
How do I keep loving what I do?
How do I stop resenting it?
Because I started seeingresentment creeping in, you know
, like dread, and I startednoticing like the resources that
were available to help manageshift work, to help manage
(18:50):
stress, to help manage all thesethings were tailored to
everything but nurses.
It was tailored to CEOs who forsome reason, have the capacity
to wake up at 4 am every morningand have an hour of power.
Or for, you know, like nursesdon't do that.
Or for stay-at-home moms, whostay-at-home moms work hard,
(19:10):
like I'm currently stay-at-homewhile I look after my two young
kids but it was tailored to themwhere they didn't have to get
up and come home and do this anddo that Like it's just managing
a household is one thing in andof itself.
Whereas nurses wear that hat,they wear the nurse's hat, they
usually wear the partner hat,the mother hat, you know all the
hats.
And so I was like, okay, well,how am I going to tailor this to
(19:33):
nurses?
And I started to createresources that I could tailor to
the very unique needs Because,like I said before, there's so
many hats to wear, and then youthrow shift work into the mix
and then you start having sleepissues, you start having, you
know, metabolic issues, so, likeyou know, you're not eating.
Well, because, you're eithersnacking because you need that
(19:54):
sugar rush or you're snackingbecause you're emotional eating
because of the stress and thetrauma that you experience, and
and I kind of that's what led tomy six steps.
Uh, in my book, because I Iidentified that there's six
aspects to this is just simpleand it's not a one-size-fits-all
, it's very much I alwaysadvocate for these aspects are
(20:17):
aspects.
The nitty-gritty inside of itis going to be individual to
what works for you, because youknow, in my first I, if you, if
you don't mind, I'm happy to runthrough the six steps that I've
got in my book yeah, go ahead,yeah, great.
So the first, the first step.
I always say like you need toknow where you want to go.
You know it's like chunking ina, a suburb or a state or
(20:40):
whatever equivalent you've gotum into a gps versus putting in
an exact address like it's anolder, it's becoming an older
saying now, but like it's so, sotrue, it's like if you just
kind of, you know, shoot fromthe the hip or go like gunshot
approach, you're not reallygoing to get where you want to
(21:01):
go.
Josh Porthouse (21:01):
Yeah that's the wonderland.
Jeanelle Classen (21:04):
Yeah, exactly.
So you've got to say like Iwant to go here, this is what I
want, and even if you, then it'slike the whole, like shoot for
the.
Was it the moon?
You'll land on a star orwhatever.
Josh Porthouse (21:16):
Stars, you'll land on a star or whatever stars
you hit the moon or something.
Jeanelle Classen (21:18):
Yeah, yeah, exactly like there's something.
And so it's exactly that like,even if you don't get to that
exact same spot, you are goingto get closer to it in that
direction and see it.
So that's the first one.
And so I actually I don't knowif you're familiar with the
wheel of life.
Um, it's a very, very popular,for the most part self-help
(21:38):
personal development tool whereyou essentially rate yourself in
various aspects of your life,so that is usually your
relationships, finance, so manyI can't even remember.
There's, I think, eight of them.
And I took that and I tailoredit to nurses, so I said like,
how are you feeling in terms ofyour sleep?
How are you feeling in terms ofyour nutrition, your exercise,
(21:58):
all these things?
Um, so that we can get aclearer picture of where am I at
, because it's one thing to knowwhere you want to go, but if
you don't know where you're at,you still don't know what you
need to get there.
So that's what leads into thesecond step of like
self-awareness leads toself-care.
Josh Porthouse (22:19):
Alrighty, folks, sit tight and we'll be right
back on Transacting Value.
Join us for Transacting Value,where we discuss practical
applications of personal values,every Monday at 9am on our
website,transactingvaluepodcastcom,
wednesdays at 5pm and Sundays atnoon on wreathsacrossamericaorg
slash radio.
Jeanelle Classen (22:40):
It's one thing to know where you want to go,
but if you don't know whereyou're at, you still don't know
what you need to get there.
So that's what leads into thesecond step of, like,
self-awareness leads toself-care, and that's where we
start looking at, okay, what aremy values, what are my beliefs,
what are things that have, like, my defining moments, what are
the things that I have I havecome from, that influenced me to
(23:02):
where I am now, and how mightthat influence me as I move
towards my goal?
Um, because, again, if we'renot self-aware, you can't do
anything about something youdon't know um and so how often
do you?
I don't know if you've talked toyou've probably talked to many
people like me of they don'tactually know they're in burnout
, they think that it's normal,they think this is just the way
(23:23):
things are.
Like I say, like you need toknow where you're coming from
before you can get anywhere.
So that's, those are the twothings.
You don't want to know whereyou're going, you want to know
where you're coming from.
And then the last four aspectskind of build on that.
We look at what is sleep and howdo you manage sleep when you're
a shift worker?
Because if you can't sleep,you're going to be a zombie,
(23:45):
you're going to be makingmistakes, you're going to be
grumpy, you're going to try andsleep days away, which is not
really great for your mentalhealth, is it?
Like you know?
You're just sleeping days onend, you're not going into
social interactions, you'rebecoming more and more isolated.
It's just a, you know, a spiral.
We're headed for disaster.
Then we start looking at habitsand getting organized and
(24:07):
managing all the balls that arein the air because of the many
roles that we play, all the hatsthat we wear.
We look at eating and nutrition, because, even though the
nutrition might fall into habits, nutrition in and of itself is
again one of the biggest thingsI noticed.
For me, when I was on nightshift especially, I wasn't able
(24:29):
to maintain a very good eatingroutine or anything like that.
Like I said before, I don'tknow what the gifting rules are
like in the States, but I knowfor Australia.
Here we're not allowed to begifted or be thanked in any way
other than cards that are foreveryone, flowers that are for
(24:52):
everyone, so on the ward, orloll or lollies.
Josh Porthouse (24:55):
food or you mean as a nurse?
Jeanelle Classen (24:58):
oh, I have no idea yeah, so we're not allowed
to receive anything other thanthose things.
Um, and so when someone wantsto thank us, like even obviously
people they were like thank youso much for doing this now,
yeah, sure.
So like how often do we havethis lollies or pizza or
whatever sitting at the nurse'sdesk?
It's like 2 am in the morningand you're just mindlessly
(25:21):
eating, snacking, whatever 100,and so you know like we go into
nutrition.
And then the last one that's myabsolute favorite and I think is
the most vital skill thatanyone but no matter whether
they're a nurse or not can learnis learning how to unwind,
learning how to leave work atthe door and be present in the
(25:41):
next phase of wherever you'regoing into, whether that's a
family gathering or your ownfamily or whatever, because how
often do we carry the baggage ofyou know, I'm still wearing my
nurse's hat of I just lost apatient or I've been physically
or emotionally, verbally abusedor anything like that.
And then we come into home.
I remember for me during my lowmoments, I would just be like
(26:03):
no one, talk to me, leave mealone.
I would go into my room, Iwould either sit in the shower,
have a cry or go to sleep, andit's just because I didn't know
how to deal with everything thatI had experienced?
Yeah, exactly, and so that isthe biggest skill that I learned
.
It's my favorite chapter, likemy absolute favorite chapter.
(26:24):
I love writing that one, andI'm actually in the process of
doing a second edition of thewhole book because I've learned
even more since then and I wantto, you know, just make it
better and better.
So those are the six steps, andthat's why I think it's so
vital to then start taking eachaspect and start tailoring it to
.
Okay, I'm going to try this forme.
(26:44):
Is this part working, yes or no?
If it's not working, let metweak it.
But these brackets, theseumbrellas, I found were pivotal
in kind of creating a bit morebalance between work life
burnout.
Josh Porthouse (26:59):
So, yeah, that's it, though right balancing the
burnout, not avoiding theburnout, because it's a matter
of time yeah, yeah.
Jeanelle Classen (27:07):
And, like I, I recently came across this
beautiful phrase of finding.
It's not necessarily findingperfect balance or like equal,
you know, um division betweenaspects.
It's finding harmony, whatworks best together.
And I love that so much.
It's so good because, if wethink like our balance must be
even like no, no, it's okay forone thing to be a little bit
(27:31):
heavier than the other, as longas they work together, and I
love that it's a, you know, aseesaw like at a playground, the
board on the fulcrum, yeah.
Josh Porthouse (27:41):
Yeah, it's okay for one side to be heavier than
the other.
You just gotta work together tomake it happen, yeah exactly,
absolutely absolutely, and thepoint you brought up too.
I guess I had totally forgottenthe intricacies of the movie
and the play and the musical andthe show.
But alice in wonderland, youmentioned it earlier and I till
just now.
The only thing that went throughmy head a couple minutes ago
(28:02):
was when the cheshire cat wastalking to alice saying well, if
you don't know where you wantto go, it doesn't matter how you
get there, and she was tryingto figure out how to make her
way around.
But as you were talking, Ithink unless I'm totally
misrepresenting this, this plotline.
But initially she's just tryingto figure out who she is and
her place in the world, and soshe's so worried about the
(28:23):
future that that getsrepresented early right and the,
the rabbit and the uh, thewhite rabbit and the clock and
he's late and all these things,and she's just as anxious but
she's unwitting to it but no, no, clue yeah.
No, and then she runs in I maybe misrepresenting the sequence
here, but eventually she runsinto the Mad Hatter and he's got
all these hats at this teaparty and she's like, oh, this
(28:44):
is great, all these hats.
And until right now I was like,yeah, he's got a lot of hats.
And then you said wearing allthe hats.
And I it okay, yeah, I wastoday I was today years old when
I realized that okay so thanksfor that yeah, mad hatter.
Jeanelle Classen (28:57):
Like you know what you know.
When we don't know which hatwe're wearing, we become mad
yeah, and I was.
Josh Porthouse (29:02):
I just took it at face value.
I was like well, that's an oddcharacter, yeah, until right
this moment.
So I appreciate that but yeah,yeah yeah, so she's trying to
figure out all these roles right, sort of subconsciously, and,
and maybe it was that weirdmushroom trip that took her the
whole way through, but I don'tknow what did it exactly, but
the point being this, catalystright and then I, I think it was
even.
Uh, there was a centipede, I'mpretty sure.
(29:24):
Who said you're not alice?
I know alice, she was here.
You're not alice, she's like no,but I am alice no no, no,
you're not.
And he was like the harmony, Ithink, character right between
the chaos and the uncertaintyand the responsibilities, and
(29:46):
the future and the past and andbeing in the present.
Obviously, at the end, when shefinally figured out who she was
in the world and then I justhappened to wake up, I guess in
in the East India tea company,but you know it it all sort of
like came together as you weredescribing your six steps, that
what a man, what a wildrevelation.
(30:07):
That was just crazy.
But I totally agree with youfor all of those reasons.
And it's interesting toobecause the theme is everywhere
but the understanding, theactual competency, and then what
to do with it, let alone thefact that it's okay isn't no
(30:28):
exactly.
It's so strange.
It's become like this, or atleast in the US, I assume
globally it's become like thisentertainment mechanism, not
this edutainment mechanism, andI think that's a downfall.
Jeanelle Classen (30:41):
Yeah, 100%.
No, it's definitely, it'salmost.
You know, like I said earlier,it's a bit of a rite of passage
in terms of, like you know, haha, your turn.
It's also very much almost likea rite of passage to say to
start complaining to each other.
It's like the only thing wetalk about these days.
Uh, in the north, in the, thebreak rooms, especially, of like
, oh, like I'm so, I'm soexhausted, I'm so this like.
(31:02):
It's almost like thiscompetition of who is more
exhausted than who.
Oh, yeah, same thing in the dodyeah, exactly, I don't think
that we do it because it's acompetition.
Like right then and there oflike I'm gonna, you know, prove
to you how, how I think it's asubconscious thing, it's become
this we've normalized feelingthis way so much that we don't
(31:22):
even know it's happened and wedon't even know that it's not
normal.
We don't even remember what itwas like before.
Um, because we're just, we'rejust, we're already, we're kind
of, you know, we're justperplexed it's crazy, yeah, it's
like.
Josh Porthouse (31:37):
It's like you norm, the, the demoralization of
the environment is such a it isit's a culture.
Well, I guess it's asubcultural thing, right,
because it may happen toeverybody.
But I don't know that.
I don't know enough about everyindustry to say that it's that
ubiquitous.
Does mcdonald's happen?
Or hungry jacks?
I don't know, maybe.
Well, you know, what's funny isbecause you know it's that
ubiquitous.
Jeanelle Classen (31:56):
Does McDonald's happen or Hungry
Jack's?
I don't know, maybe.
Well, you know, what's funny isbecause you know it's just.
I talk to nurses all over theworld.
I talk to them in Australia,obviously, new Zealand, canada,
europe, us, and I've talked to afew nurses in other, smaller
countries.
Same thing You'd think that wewere if it wasn't for our
(32:17):
differences in time zone or inaccents.
You'd think we're talking aboutthe same hospital, the same
ward, maybe even the same people.
Josh Porthouse (32:22):
Yeah, All right, folks sit tight and we'll be
right back on Transacting Value.
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Josh Porthouse (33:20):
same people, yeah, how is that universal like
that blows my mind a little bit, but it is.
It is, yeah, but, but it's like.
It's like all of thesepositions that have this
enduring exposure to high stressor just enduring exposure to
occupational stressors.
I think eventually youacclimatize because you need to
disassociate to a degree youneed to detach intentionally
just to function.
It's too chaotic, otherwiseright.
(33:42):
So let me ask you this this isa segment of the show called
Developing Character, d-d-dDeveloping Character, and it's
about value systems and here'swhy I'm bringing this up.
And it's about value systemsand here's why I'm bringing this
up.
(34:03):
My working theory is that valuesare a grounding mechanism for
every individual person in ahigh stress situation, not
necessarily a position, but tobetter influence your behaviors,
your cognition, and thenwhatever your actions are to
process sort of like getting thetrain moving.
Your actions are to processsort of like getting the train
moving.
And so I'm curious and maybefor the sake of commonality here
, but two questions asvulnerable as you want to be,
(34:27):
it's up to you, but that has tostart somewhere.
It's not all necessarily.
Nurture some of its nature,because you don't know any
better as a kid, like you said.
So in the beginning, what aresome of the values that you were
exposed to or that you werebrought up around?
Jeanelle Classen (34:38):
So I mean for me it's always been one of
service, Like for my family.
It's very much like, you know,you should be putting others
first and it's.
You know I sometimes blame myyes, I'm an Australian now, I'm
originally from South Africa andso it's a very it's an older
culture, it's a more traditionalculture.
(34:59):
So it's very much like, um,it's not so much in my household
, but definitely they were likelittle elements of it, of like
children especially are seen andnot heard.
And so it's very much like, youknow, trying meekness, but not
in a weak, not in a in aempowered way.
Meekness, but not in anempowered way, meekness in a
(35:19):
forced you need to be quiet,like this is not your place type
of thing.
So very much like try and keepyour emotions in, try and keep
your opinions to yourself.
I mean I failed miserably atthose tests.
I have offended people left,right and centre in my life and
(35:40):
I'm not wearing that as a badgeof honour, more of a humble
admission that sometimes I comeacross as very direct, very
strong, and I don't necessarilymean it.
But it was very important to me.
Even though the familial valueswere seen and not heard, my
personal values have always beenspeak up for what's right, and
(36:02):
so, um, I think those two yes,they're a little bit in conflict
, but those two together shapedmy, my go-getter spirit, because
I definitely believe that Idon't just let life happen to me
, I want to do things so thatthings can start working for me
and with me.
Um, or, you know, I can startworking with and for it, um, you
(36:26):
know, depending on the scenario.
Josh Porthouse (36:28):
So, yeah, harmony, love it, love it All
right.
So then my second question isand you alluded to this a little
bit right in terms of speakingup for what's right, but now, a
couple decades after the fact, abit of time into your sort of
nurture phase of life, have theychanged?
(36:49):
What are some of your valuesnow?
Jeanelle Classen (36:51):
I think, yeah, it's kind of, it's kind of
taken those.
I mean, obviously there's morethan just two values that anyone
holds, but those two stand outto me at the moment and I think
for me now they they're evenstronger in that I I mean, I
mean, I'm a nurse, so my, mydesire to serve is there and
like it's definitely integral tothe person that I am.
However, I am much moreconfident in my ability to stand
(37:16):
up for us right.
I'm much more willing to, um,risk it to be able to to.
You know, I might be separateor I might be, I might stand out
, not necessarily in a good way,um, but it does mean that I'm
able to to take that next step,because otherwise I would have
after that those conversationswith my senior nurses, I
(37:37):
probably would have just satback and gone oh, that's just
the way that it is.
Oh like I guess this is, this ismy new norm now.
Um, and so I think again, likeif I didn't have those values to
stand up for, what's right tostand up for fight for right to
stand up for, fight for what Iwant, I don't think I'd be
(37:58):
nursing or I would be a verymiserable nurse.
Josh Porthouse (38:02):
Yeah, absolutely Absolutely.
Finding something to latch onto, like I said, to ground, you, I
think, makes all the differenceand it's the same thing here in
the Department of Defense.
You, I think, makes all thedifference and it's the same
thing here in the Department ofDefense.
I worked in Darwin a few yearsback with the First Armored
Regiment and they had verysimilar points of view towards
(38:23):
burnout, but also towards its Iguess we'll call it remediation
through some of theseconsiderations, and it made all
the difference.
I mean, they were collectivelya very rambunctious group of
individuals and really enjoyedhaving fun and being around each
other and everything that comeswith that kind of camaraderie.
But they complained quite a bit.
(38:45):
I mean, there was still plentyof circumstantial things.
We were all experiencing thesame things.
It didn't matter that we werein different hemispheres,
militaries, branches I mean itwas all the same.
Just like you brought up withthe nursing community and the
crazy thing, I'm not a shiftworker but we're finding the
same things industry to industrynow as well, right, which?
(39:06):
is such an interesting, I think,phenomenon that I don't know if
it's complacency or complicity.
I'm not too sure if it'signorance or academics.
I don't know that there is afix.
Maybe it's just human natureand some of it is.
You just have to deal with it.
But I don't think dealing withit means accepting it as it is.
I think it can also beaccepting it as it could be or
(39:29):
in spite of itself, learning toaccept it.
Jeanelle Classen (39:32):
Yeah, that's powerful 100% agree, and I
always say that there's somethings that people go.
They'll really focus in theircomplaints or their woes on
things that are out of theircontrol and I'm like, okay, well
, yes, those things suck, butlet's focus on what you can
(39:55):
control.
What are the things that youcan take and what are the
actions you can take, how, whatare the mindsets you can have
around it?
Because if you're choosing to,if you're choosing to have a
negative mindset on somethinglike similar to what you
mentioned about the scooters, ifyou start noticing, you know,
red scooters, like continue,continue with that analogy and
that metaphor of you know, ifyou're noticing the red scooters
(40:16):
, all the red flags, all the youknow negative things, you're
going to notice more and more ofthat.
And I'm not saying live inoblivion or be oblivious to
things or like turn a blind eye,but I do think that you need to
think about okay, is thisactually something I can do
something about?
And if it's not, it's okay forme to let this go.
(40:37):
How can I then work towardsthat?
And you know, turn to me.
I always say, like if you startwith you, you might actually see
a change in your surroundings.
And it's not just.
You know, it's not alwayssomeone else's fault.
It's not always someone else'sresponsibility to fix the thing.
Sometimes it's us that we needto work on and sometimes sorry,
(41:01):
I'm interrupting myself I thinkit's one of those things like
sometimes the problem is us, notin a blame blaming way, but
like if something is not workingand it doesn't look like things
are going to change, maybe Ican do something about it and
not just wait for someone elseto take the lead.
Maybe it's time for me to takecharge.
It could be something as smallas saying no to a double shift
(41:24):
for the third time in a row.
It can be something as simple assaying no to that guilt trip
and just graciously saying Ireally acknowledge that you're
going to be understaffed if Idon't pick up this double shift.
But for my safety and for yoursand for those of my patients, I
need to say no today.
I need rest, I need to spendtime with my loved ones, I need
(41:45):
to look after me.
You can't argue with that ifyou do it in a gracious way.
Josh Porthouse (41:51):
Yeah, man, absolutely.
And I think the other sort ofmaybe partnered aspect to that
is sometimes, even if you try totake the ownership, you can't
do anything about it.
Jeanelle Classen (42:04):
Exactly.
Josh Porthouse (42:05):
And so it maybe does have to be that way, but
you can still do you in theprocess like you did, and you
find ways to better manage andcope and process.
So, for the sake of time, Ihave two more quick questions
for you, yes, and one of them isthen if you had to try to
summarize, or if you alreadyhave summarized, a way that your
(42:28):
values are being transactedthrough your behavior, through
your thought process andcognition, into your actions,
what's the benefit?
Do you think that you'velearned from identifying that
these values have been importantto you in the process?
Jeanelle Classen (42:45):
Look, I think when you live in congruence with
your values, you're living inharmony, because when you're
living in conflicting with yourvalues, that's what leads to
moral injury.
Like, for example, when you, Iwas working with an allied
(43:06):
health professional I think Ican't remember now whether she
was a physiotherapist or anoccupational therapist.
Either way, she was telling mea story, or an occupational
therapist.
Either way, she was telling mea story of during covid, when
you know how pretty mucheveryone was in their own
segregated, separated rooms,everyone individually, very
isolated, and this elderly ladyhad no family who came visit her
(43:28):
.
And this allied healthprofessional came in, did her
thing and she was about to leave.
And she says that the patientsays please don't leave me,
please don't leave me, I don'twant to be alone.
And I get a tear up when Ithink about it, because how
often I've heard patients saydon't leave me, I don't want to
be alone.
(43:49):
And I I'm thinking and thisallied health professional had
the same thing of if I don'tleave this room and move on to
my next patient, I'm going to bepinged for underperformance.
And it's like, you know, thathuman aspect of us wanting to be
like yes, I will be with you.
(44:09):
You don't want to be alone.
Versus, actually, I'm going tolose my job if I do this more
than once or twice.
And then you know that is amassive mismatch in our values.
So then that's what leads to.
In many ways it's a trauma.
It's a brief moment of time oftrauma, of like I actually have
(44:31):
to put this person's desperatecry for help away and push that
away so that I can then, youknow, reach some kpi that some
person in the office somewheresaid I must reach, um, yeah, and
so that's one thing.
So for me, being able to tofind that balance between saying
(44:52):
I must leave right now, but Iwill make sure that I come back
and I sit with you for 10minutes, or whatever, and you
know, like, or in that moment,much, much easier said than done
, obviously, but being able tosay, okay, I really want to be
here for you, I will be here forfive, 10 minutes.
And you know calling yourco-workers and saying, look, hey
, like I really need five, 10minutes.
And you know calling yourco-workers and saying, look, hey
(45:13):
, like I really need five, 10minutes.
I'm, you know, I'm going totake that now to be with this
patient, because they need itfor their patient care.
Like you can definitely, youknow, not spin, but spin it in a
way that is more congruent withhow you want to care, how you
want to be.
So that's what I want to sayaround values, like, if you're
(45:35):
living in mismatch, let's go thepositive way.
If you are living congruentlywith your values, you'll find
that you are a happier personoverall, not just at work,
because if you're doing the samething at home and someone is
asking you for something, or youknow, I don any value, name any
(45:56):
value if you're not living incongruence with it and you're
going against it often and likechronically, basically that's,
you're going to be empty, you'regoing to be so, so drained
emotionally because you'rehaving to constantly go no, no,
no, cut off, cut off, cut off,and you become this really numb,
empty shell.
Josh Porthouse (46:16):
It's like soul dust yeah.
Jeanelle Classen (46:18):
Yeah, absolutely so.
That's definitely one thingthat I say.
I love the Demartini he's thevalues guy.
He always says that you willmake time, time, money and
effort available for the thingsthat you value most.
And so if you value someoneelse's opinion over your value
(46:41):
to remain human, you're going tolike you're going to lose your
humanity.
So it's about taking aconscious effort to make effort
and and work towards what isgoing to uphold the values that
I hold, so that I'm not inmismatch.
Josh Porthouse (47:00):
I love it.
I love it.
Then my last question is,assuming all of that is covered
in your book, if people want tofind it, if people want to check
out your resources or followalong with second edition when
it comes out, where do people go?
How do we do it?
Jeanelle Classen (47:17):
Yeah, yeah, thank you.
So my website isnursingthenursecom and so I'm on
Nursing the Nurse pretty muchacross all platforms.
We're currently in massiverebranding from Mindfulness for
Health in massive rebrandingfrom Mindfulness for Health.
So if you're looking fornursingthenursecom, you should
be able to find us.
But, yeah, that's pretty muchwhere everything lives.
(47:39):
I've got free resources onthere.
I love connecting with people.
I've got a beautiful Facebookcommunity as well, so it's all
under the same name.
But, yeah, thank you so much.
It's just so wonderful to beable to share.
You know my passion, which ishelping nurses, and you know,
like I said, I think we might'vementioned this before we start
(47:59):
recording, but take, takenursing in everything that we've
said and insert your industry,insert your situation, because
it's applicable.
Josh Porthouse (48:08):
Absolutely, Absolutely and for everybody.
Well, first off, you're welcome.
But for everybody who's tunedinto this conversation.
Depending on the player you'restreaming it on click, see more.
Click show more and then in thedropdown description for the
conversation, you will see linksto Nursing the Nurse, and you
can get to Janelle's website aswell, track down the book, and
(48:28):
so, if that's easier for you,that's totally an option as well
.
Janelle, I know you've gotcommitments to get to and you
guys have plans you're trying tofulfill today, so I appreciate
it your time, your insight, yourperspective and your
personality and your passion.
It was a great conversation andI couldn't have done it without
you, so thanks for coming onthe show.
Jeanelle Classen (48:49):
Thank you so much.
It's awesome, awesome, awesomeand what an honor to be able to
share this stuff, because it'sso important, and that's what
we're here for.
Right Is to share thoseinsights with others so that
people can know that they're notalone and know that, yes, it's
tough, but if you've got theskills and you equip yourself
with the right stuff, then thereis another way there is a way
(49:11):
out, yeah, or a way through orforward.
Josh Porthouse (49:15):
Exactly yeah yeah, yeah, for everybody else
who's tuning in and listening toor watching the conversation,
depending on where you're comingfrom you can go to our website,
by the waytransactingvaluepodcastcom.
You can listen to otherconversations, re-listen to this
one if you want.
But here's the cool part On thetop right corner of the
homepage it says leave avoicemail.
(49:35):
Now you can click it.
You can tell us what you thinkof the show and I will welcome
that as well.
However, you can also take twominutes and let Chanel know what
you thought of the conversationand her opinion and her book
and give her an audio file andwe will forward it to her as
well.
Guys, so many coolopportunities when it comes to
broadcast media now in 2024,2025 and what everybody's doing
(49:57):
with it.
A voicemail, pretty standardplay.
Now you can do that on a cellphone as well.
So why not with a podcast or tohelp somebody out in their own
brand or book?
But I appreciate everythingthat you guys are doing my team
obviously producing the show,janelle for you coming onto the
show and everybody else's timelistening to and supporting it
as well.
Until next time, that wasTransacting Value.
(50:19):
Thank you to our show partnersand folks.
Thank you for tuning in andappreciating our value as we all
grow through life together.
To check out our otherconversations or even to
contribute through feedbackfollows time, money or talent
and to let us know what youthink of the show, please leave
a review on our website,transactingvaluepodcastcom.
(50:40):
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Head to wreathsacrossamericaorg.
(51:05):
Slash transactingvalue tosponsor a wreath and remember,
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On behalf of our team and ourglobal ambassadors, as you all
strive to establish clarity andpurpose, ensure social
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(51:25):
we'll meet you there.
Until next time.
That was Transacting Value.
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