Make Peace or Die: Honor the Fallen

Episode Transcript
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Josh Porthouse (00:00):
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audience.
Welcome to Transacting Value,where we talk about practical

(00:22):
applications for instigatingself-worth when dealing with
each other and even withinourselves, where we foster a
podcast listening experiencethat lets you hear the power of
a value system for managingburnout, establishing boundaries
, fostering community andfinding identity.
My name is Josh Porthouse, I'myour host and we are redefining
sovereignty of character.

(00:42):
This is why values still holdvalue.
This is Transacting Value.

Anthony & Manny Marquez (00:49):
Almost 13, 14 years later Make Peace or
Die comes out.
Millions of Americans do knowthe name of Robert Greninger
because Anthony heard thatchallenge from General Savage at
his memorial, saying he diedfor millions of Americans will
never know his name and Anthonythought I'm going to change that
.

All right, guys, welcome back to Transacting
Value.
Today we're talking about guiltand coping and what it means to
move through a kineticwarfighting environment
physically and then, after thefact, mentally.
More importantly, how do youhelp families, friends that are
gold star status, move throughand process just the same to

(01:28):
reintegrate back into society?
We've got an awesomeopportunity here today where
we're talking with Anthony andManny Marquez, the male lead and
the producer for thedocumentary called Make Peace or
Die, about One Five'sdeployment in 2011 to
Afghanistan, and we're going totalk all about it.
So, from SDYT Media, my name isJosh Porthouse, I'm your host

(01:52):
and this is Transacting Value.
Guys, what's going on, anthony,manny, how you doing.

How you doing today.

Good, how are you Good?
Good Look, I appreciate theopportunity.
You guys make it some time inyour day.
I know you don't have a wholelot, but I assume you're not
like local celebrities.
Or has this documentaryskyrocketed your status?
How's life so far?

We're big in Japan.
No, you know, I mean peopleknow who we are because the
movies had a good reception herein Tulsa and in Oklahoma.
I played about five times atour local art house cinema.
You know we've had a lot ofsupport from the Tulsa film
office, uh, tulsa film and musicoffice, um, and then from our
local OETA, which is our PBSstation here, promoted it last

(02:34):
year, hosting uh broadcast partyfor us, uh, with with the Tulsa
film office.
So you know, I mean I wouldn'tsay we're celebrities, but we've
had a lot of support, communitysupport, from for the film.

Do you feel like you had that before you made
this documentary?
And, manny, you were thedirector, the producer.
What was your role?

Yeah, director.

Director of the film and do you feel like you
had that kind of communitysupport before you made it?

I mean?
I mean me, and Anthony couldanswer that more.
You know he's been.
I was away for about 23 yearsand he was here.
So, yeah, uh, yeah, I mean sowith the chainsaw carvings, you
know, here in the local area oftulsa, uh, the local news
channels have done multiplestories on that and just
different, uh, just differentways that I've been involved

(03:19):
with uh different veterans andso, yeah, I guess there's been.
The community has always beensupportive of what we've done
and what I've done with thecarvings throughout this area
well, okay, but so you made thecarvings during the production
phase of the documentary right?
I actually did the carvings in2016 to 2019 and I continue to

(03:42):
do them.
I've done 82 of them up to thispoint, but I started doing them
in 2016, and so from 20 july2016 to may of 2019, that's when
I originally donated all thecarvings to the 17 gold star
families.
We didn't start the film untiluh may of 2021 oh wow, so you

(04:02):
just happened to get b-rollfootage while you were making
them, or was that?
We had made a short film called17 Carvings about the creation
of the carving for Joe Jackson'sfamily and that we had that
footage and then we had footageof him doing other carvings.
So the way we built that in themovie was using that short film
and using footage from theother carvings.

(04:24):
But the carving of the, hismission, took place actually
before the movie.

Yeah, cool wow okay, and movie magic, you know
yeah yeah, absolutely.

That was kind of one of the premises
of actually making the movie iswhat the families told me when I
delivered the carvings to themum, they all said similar thing
of how their son.
They didn't want their son tobe forgotten.
So we decided the best way todo that was make a feature film
to give the families a voice,and that's when we decided to
make the movie.

Okay, well, so let's talk through that a little
bit Now.
Obviously, as we're recordingthis right now, it's basically
Memorial Day, weekend, memorialDay, timeframe of year, and
there's, I think, on one hand, alot of misrepresentation and
ignorance around Memorial Day,maybe even the difference from
that to Veterans Day, but also,from a firsthand perspective,

(05:16):
what it means to have any sortof relationship with a Gold Star
family.
So can you walk me through thatdynamic a little bit Memorial
Day, veterans Day, somedifferences, gold Star families,
and we'll just set the tone,what that is.

You know, Veterans Day is for
anybody who served.
It's not for active duty, it'sfor veterans.
The individuals who signed up,served, fulfilled their contract
, were honorably discharged fromthe military or retired.
So that's, you know, that'swhat Veterans Day is really
around.
And then Memorial Day is reallybuilt around memorializing,

(05:54):
remembering the ones who gavetheir life in the service of the
country.
So those are the two distinct,you know, factors with Veterans
Day and Memorial Day.
We want to highlight Gold Starfamilies all the time, but
really, you know, they'reentwined with what Memorial Day
is.
This movie originally had aVeteran Day release on PBS last

(06:16):
year, november 11th, and it wasgreat.
We wanted to get it out as soonas we could and that was a great
thing.
We had 1.3 million viewers inthe month of November on PBS
last year and they came back tous this year and said hey, you
know, this is such a great fitfor Memorial Day and honestly
it's a better fit for MemorialDay because of the nature of
remembering the fallen and theGold Star families that we

(06:38):
agreed to bring the movie backon Memorial Day, and so I've
just been so pleased with theoutpouring so far this year.
In the last week, you know,talking to people like you other
podcasts, radio shows, news,news organizations, people
really grasping what it means toremember the fallen and when
you remember the fallen, youjust don't remember them.

(06:58):
You remember their families,because their families are still
here dealing and surviving andhealing, because their families
are still here dealing andsurviving and healing.
And so the real impetus for themovie was to create a space for
empathy that we could rememberour Gold Star families.
We've never seen a movie aboutGold Star families, and so we
saw a need to fill that voidwith Make Peace or Die.

Okay, and the title?
Then I initially thought it waslike introspective.
You know, like get it togetheror it's just going to eat you
alive.
You know the grief orresentment or survivor's guilt,
anthony, was that a factorthrough the process or entitling
the documentary?

Yeah, manny's the one that came up
with.
Like there's multiple ways thatpeople can perceive the title.
Make Peace or Die is the mottofor First Calumet, fifth Marines
, and so when we're, you know,active duty, we're getting ready
to go on a deployment.
You know that's our motto MakePeace or Die.
We're pretty much talking tothe enemy, that we're telling

(08:00):
them be peaceful or we'll killyou, kind of aspect.
We're telling them be peacefulor we'll kill you, kind of
aspect.
Well now, after we're out,there's a different way that
people can perceive that, viewit.
And you know you have to makepeace with the things you saw,
did, were involved with or, overtime, it could kill you.
And I, you know, and we foughtto keep the name Make Peace or
Die because PBS wanted us tochange the name to about 15

(08:25):
different things.
But at the end of the day it'sso entwined with the story and
the families and the marines andeverybody who served it, just
it just had to be that.
So we added honor the fallen atthe at the back end of it.
So it's the title is make peaceor die on the fallen.
But we still go by, just makepeace, die.
I mean.
I mean it just takes ondifferent meanings when you,
when you're in a time of war,it's like you make peace or die.

(08:46):
You tell the enemy make peaceor die.
When you come home, you have tomake peace or you will die.
You know and like, and thesefamilies, the mission is never
over, right, it just changes.
And so, like that was what itcame to me when we're making the
movie, I said I told anthony, Isaid make peace or die.
You have to make peace or youwill die.
These families have to makepeace or they will die.
It's eating them alive, and sothat's the title.

(09:07):
It's kind of interesting.
When we did the spanishlanguage translation for pbs, it
was really interestingapproving these translations,
because the the phrase meansdifferent things and in english
it's easier to catch the nuance,but in other languages it's
harder, and so and so like MakePeace or Die was actually said
like three different ways in theSpanish translation, because

(09:29):
every time they said it it meantsomething different.

Throughout the movie.

Yeah, yeah, it actually changes the
translation if you watch theSpanish subtitles, because the
way we nuance it in English ishard to understand in Spanish.
Anyways, I'm on sidetrack, butyou know?

Well, not necessarily as tangential as you
might think.
Because when we're talkingabout context, it's difficult as
a storyteller on a podcast or adocumentarian or a first-hand
experiential let's say, servicemember individual, to be able to
convey any of those lessons orperspectives or opportunities or
insights or whatever to anyother generation, let alone

(10:08):
anybody else who just wasn'tthere.
It's like trying to read afiction book and teach somebody
what it's like to be stranded onan island who's never left the
United States.
You just can't convey thatstuff.
And so when we're talking aboutcontext, I guess, anthony, in
your case, what's it like inSangan?
Now, I deployed to Helmand, Iwas in Marja, but I didn't go to

(10:29):
Sangan, and it is still adifferent environment between
the two.
So what was it like?
Was it everything it was hypedup to be on the news and
explosions everywhere and highstress and second-guessing every
step?
Or was there a little bit morehumanity and you know, just a
different way of view in theworld?
What's your take on theenvironment?

I mean I think it was a little of all
that.
Um, you know, I, to be honestwith you, I didn't watch a lot
of news leading up to going onthe deployment, but we were
getting the updates from three,five, so that was like the real
time updates from the marines onthe ground, the unit who we
were replacing.
So and it was, it was brutal.

(11:08):
The updates were brutal.
You know another, they hadmultiple Marines killed,
multiple Marines amputees, youknow casualties, so it was like
that weekly.
So I think, like you said, likeyou mentioned, it's a little of
all of that.
I mean there's humanity in,like you mentioned, it's a
little of all of that.
I mean there's humanity ineverything, there's beauty in
everything, like there's thesunset, there is beautiful.

(11:30):
You know like it's hot.
So I had never been to combatbefore that deployment.
I was with security forces thefirst three years of the Marine
Corps so I did two non-combatdeployments with them and I went
to Cuba and Spain and Israelwith different fast platoons.
So that was my first experiencewith combat and I don't know

(11:51):
how to explain.
It's just when you get in thatenvironment it just life becomes
real because it's so fragileyeah, it was the same thing with
us.

I think maybe half of our patrol they were all
partnered.
But I think maybe half of ourpatrol they were all partnered.
But I think maybe half of ourpatrols were dismounted on foot
and half were mounted in avehicle, and then I was a turret
gunner whenever we were mounted.
So it it, it really.
Yeah, the fragility is a goodway to put that.
It really did crystallize itand sharpen it, and I don't know

(12:23):
if it was just because, youknow know, there was just months
on end of endless adrenaline,or not endless.
I guess we crashed pretty hardevery day, but, you know,
finding ways to process throughthat and then reintegrate.
Obviously, in your case, though, uh, especially with one five
and, for the record, while youguys were in sangin, I was just
getting to marja.
I was with first tanks at thetime, but, yeah, still same same

(12:46):
time frame, 2011 but what we'retalking about getting situated
and sort of reintegrating andprocessing you guys had, well,
17 casualties in five months.
Yeah, that takes a toll.
What was it like in in thosefive months?
You still had to get up and youstill had to go back out, but
then also, when you got back toprocess and sort of make sense

(13:10):
of the world.

So I say in the film, uh, that you
really don't have time to grievewhen you're in combat.
I feel like you just have to,you, you kind of have to accept
the environment you're in to beable to function and then just,
I mean, go with the flow, acceptthat you could be killed, you

(13:31):
could get blown up, you could,you know, see your friend get
killed.
You have to be able to acceptthese things life altering or
life ending, uh, instances thatcould happen any, any, at any
point in any day and to be ableto function.
So it's, it's just when, whenyou come home, is when you can
actually start to process andgrieve, grieve all, uh, what you

(13:54):
experienced and what you wentthrough.
So three, five had 25 Marineskilled and we came in and
replaced them.
We had some, so we already knewwe were going into something
that was pretty bad.
And you know, like I said, Ihad no combat experience outside
of that, and a lot of guys inour platoon and in our unit they
were pretty green too, theydidn't have.
They might've went other places, but they had no combat

(14:14):
experience.
And so it was.

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It was all new to me, you know, but you
have to get accustomed to itquick to be able to function.

What did that kind of I guess, intentional
distancing or detachment or Idon't know cognitive dissonance?
I mean like you had to learnthat on the fly and then adopt
it as a perspective and then tryto drop it when you got home to
go to you know whatever getgroceries?
Like how do you, how do youreconcile that kind of and then
adopt it as a perspective andthen try to drop it when you got
home to go to you know whateverget groceries?

Like, how do you, how do you reconcile
that kind of distance?
They say the military and theMarine Corps.
They teach, they, you gothrough all this training, you
go through you know, uh, youknow, like building clearing,
you do just all kinds of ranges,everything.
They train you to go to combatand do the job, but then they
don't.
You're not, you're just youngkids pretty much.
You don't know how to processthat.

(16:10):
So when it happens, you justevery everybody's different,
they process it differently.
Uh, and then, and then whencoming home too, some people
could just turn it off, somepeople can't.
And then there's an aspect ofsome people come home and then
they stay in the Marine Corpsfor another five years and they
do two more deployments.
So they're still around theenvironment of the military and
the Marines who were with them.

(16:31):
And then, like me, I got outfive months after getting back
from Afghanistan.
So we got back in October of2019 and I got out of the Marine
Corps March of 2012.
So and then, even then, I hadmy dog that I had on the
deployment came back and she wasgone within 30 minutes of being
back in the States and I didn'tthink I'd see her.
And then you know.
So it's just.

(16:52):
I don't know.
I think it's just everybodyprocesses it differently.
I don't know, I don't, I don'tknow if you can be taught that.
Yeah, I mean maybe there's a lot, lot.
That's why there's counselingand therapists to help you
figure things out.

But well, it's a different subculture, I think
in the united states at least.
I can't speak to othercountries, but I've I'd wager to
bet it's pretty similar toother militaries and service
members as well.
But but it's a subculture, it'sa psychographic that's
difficult to describe and thatwas one of that scene.
That was your dog, right, yeah,that's the dog.

(17:27):
Yeah, that scene in the in themovie when you guys had to put
her down, what happened?

so I adopted ally in 2014 and um, so
when we landed back in 2011, thecompany that contracts with the
government, their civiliancompany they, they took her and
took her back across the Statesand retrained her and put her
with another handler and she didthree more deployments.
Well, in 2014, the program thatthe Marine Corps had, the IDD
program that that, uh, obama didaway with that program.

(17:54):
So all the dogs in that programeither went to law enforcement
or they went to their handler.
Since I was the first handler,I got a choice to adopt her.
Since I was a first handler, Igot a choice to adopt her.
So I adopted her in July of2014.
And then she just old age.
She was 13 and a half.
She did 4 combat deployments.
I had her for 7 years.
She was almost 14 years old.

(18:14):
She's 6 months, 5 months shy of14 years old.
She lived a long life.
She had a hard life growing up.
4 deployments Four deploymentsyeah, four deployments.

Ad (18:26):
She had bread for that purpose and was in Afghanistan.
She was whelped in 2008.
Just over three years later,her and I were training together
in Mahajan, viper, and then wewent to Afghanistan Wow.

That's cool, though.
And then you ultimately toafghanistan wow, that's cool,
though.
And then you ultimately got herback then.
What a cool story.
At least that that's.
That's pretty sweet, yeah, maryswitzer helped with all that.

Like here in oklahoma, coach
switzer's a big icon with sportsand football and uh, but he.
That's how we.
I got involved with coachswitzer and he helped.
He helped get alley back in2014.

Yeah, that's cool.
Well, huge thanks to him,because that's a super cool
opportunity that I'm sure ispretty uncommon, well.
So, okay, let me ask you this,because I know at least, anthony
, you're a little tight on timehere, but with the let's call it
assumption that Allie was partof your healing process, or
getting Allie back was part ofyour healing process, what would

(19:29):
you have done if you didn't?
How would you have processeddifferently if you didn't get
Allie?

back, yeah, or was she the primary
cause?
When I first got out of MarineCorps in March of 2012, I came
home in April, the next month,and I worked for the family
business for 10 years.
But so that April 2012, Iadopted a Doberman cause.
I didn't think I'd ever seeAllie again.
So I just gotten back fromcombat, you know, six months
prior, and I had this dog thatwas with me through some

(19:56):
traumatic instances in my life.
So I was like I need anotherdog.
I adopted, uh, a doberman roxy,uh the local rescue here in
tulsa, and then, and then twoyears later, I adopted ally.
So I had them both.
I had to put roxy down in 2018and and then I had ally and I
had to put her down in 2021.
Um, so she was a big part.

(20:17):
Like I said, she was through alot of things in my life through
that deployment, and then Inever thought I'd see her again.
And then, when I did get herback, I knew the next time I
lost her she would pass away.
So I knew it was a good feelingand good to get her back, but I
knew there was going to be atime that it would.
Losing her was going to be likelosing a relative, you know you

(20:40):
know, she was she was a marine.
She, it's a lot and I and a lotof people who watch the movie
there, they always talk aboutthe dog scene and it's like
because they can relate,everybody has a pet.
You know, um, but uh, but shewas more than just a pet to me.
But what life would have beenlike without her?
I, um, I can't really guesswhat it would be like.
I'm fortunate enough that Ididn't have to figure out a

(21:03):
different way of coping becauseI have her.

Well, let me ask you these last two questions,
anthony, and then Manny, I'vegot a couple for you as well,
yeah, so then let's take thesame sort of point and just flip
it a little bit.
You can't actively talk toAllie and expect responses.
You know what I mean.
You can't actively talk toAllie and expect responses.
You can't have a conversationto process and obviously, like

(21:27):
in my case, hosting a podcast oryou guys, you've got each other
, but communicating all of thetrauma or guilt, or just to help
your brain process, makes adifference.
So having a dog like Allie, oreven Roxy, I'm sure, helps a lot
, or any pet for that matter.
But who'd you talk to, who'dyou reach out to?

(21:52):
How do you, you know, reconcilethese things to reintegrate?

um, so to go back to your question of
like, when you talk to a dog,like like they don't respond.
They won't answer but theylisten.
And I think that's the goodthing, because a lot of times
when we talk to somebody theydon't know what to say, like
just a friend.
And they don't have to knowwhat to say because a lot of
times there's not, there's not aright answer to say there's not

(22:19):
a right response.
If somebody is having an issue,they might not have the
resolution, the answer thatresolves that problem, but they
can sit there and listen.
And the good thing with Allieis she could sit there and
listen and she didn't judge, shedidn't care, she just was
support, without even realizingDogs are that way to us, they're

(22:39):
just support.
Dogs are more than pets topeople way to us, they're just
support.
Dogs are more than pets to topeople.
So, um, in ways, just having herto talk to her and because that
was something too is her and Iwent through these things
together.
She experienced it with me.
She didn't understand them, shedidn't, you know, she can't
comprehend or realize that, butjust being able to talk to her

(23:02):
and have her was, uh, it was ablessing and a help to me just
because she was part of my lifeduring that time.
But then, outside of that, if Ineeded to talk somebody else,
uh, I would just talk to peoplethat I trusted, people that I uh
were in the military.

(23:23):
People that were in that my uhwere in the military.
People that were in that mysame unit, maybe even in the
same platoon that there'sthere's a handful of dudes that
I would reach out to and talk to.

I'm going to take a leap here, based on some
firsthand experience that goingthrough those kinds of coping
mechanisms talking to peoplehanging out with your dogs,
making this documentary, helpingthese families like you know,
finding processes and roles foryourself to cope at times takes
a toll on your self-worth, whoyou are, what role you fill in

(23:57):
society, all of those kinds ofthings.
So let me ask you this, I guessas a final question then,
before you got to step out,anthony, that what, what types
of, let's say, values did youfind worked for you to stand on
and rely on and sort ofre-instigate your own sense of
self and self-worth?

So I grew up, you know, catholic
we're catholic, uh, religiouschristians and then just the
values, I think the values ofbeing a marine, the values of
being a man and the way that ourparents raised us, uh helped me
on on a straight and narrow.
I guess I had my problems, likewhen I first got a marine.
I had my issues, but I'm I'mfortunate I never got hooked on

(24:41):
like substances, like drugs, uh,you know, like a lot of dudes
do and come out and you knowI've had my my issues, but I'm
I'm fortunate I never got hookedon like substances, like drugs,
uh, you know, like a lot ofdudes do and come out, and you
know I've had my bad thoughtsmyself and uh, um, but the
values I just I don't know, Ijust always I think the Marine
Corps instilled a set of valuesin me that I just continued with
, even even to today.

(25:01):
I mean the military made me inme that I just continued with,
even to today.
I mean the military made me.
I think the Marine Corps mademe who I am.
And even people nowadays stillask that question, which you
probably get what do you do itagain?
You know, I was like a year orso ago I was talking to a guy
and he's like trying to get thequestion out.
He was kind of beating aroundthe bush.
He was trying to ask thequestion without actually saying

(25:22):
it and I just said, said yeah,I'd do it again because I mean
that's just the best way.
I know how to answer thatquestion, just being the person
I am.
Um, I think everybody, you knoweverybody has free will to make
their own choices.
You got to figure out whatvalues are best for you.
But the marine corps helpingstill some good values in me and
my parents and my family, ourfamily, some good values in me
and my parents and my family.

Yeah, I definitely agree with that point
specifically.

I don't .
I might look like a convict,but I'm not.
Yeah.

I don't particularly want to relive
every moment, but I wouldn'ttrade any of it.

Yeah.

And it is an interesting sort of point.
I think the Marine Corps doesnurture quite a bit and shape
quite a bit, but there'ssomething to be said for what's
natural too.
So, since I know you've got tostep out, I just wanted to say
again, real quick, before youleave, thanks for putting this
on the table.
I don't mean the documentary, Imean your experience, I mean
your perspective and, you know,to your, to your parents, for

(26:19):
helping get you into a position,mentally and spiritually, where
you could volunteer, notinitially, um, you know, in 2008
, 2009, but in 2012, in 2016, in2021, to make this documentary,
to help gold, gold starfamilies, and just it helps.

(26:41):
It keeps the legacy alive, butit also helps out of the memory.
It also helps bring together acommunity, even just a
subculture, that needs it.

So thanks well, I appreciate it and
I've said it before, but Ithink all the things that I've
done out of the military is justbecause has come from a desire
to continuing, continuallywanting to serve in some aspect.
So I'm not active duty, I'm not, I don't wear the uniform
anymore, but it doesn't mean Ican't do something in some way

(27:14):
that to give back.
So that's what I found was thecarvings.
What I found was trying to makethe, you know, making the film,
trying to get the stories out,so that's that's kind of uh, you
mean, you don't have to wear auniform, you don't have to be
like in formation or in standingin a uniform to do some type of

(27:34):
service.
So yeah, but I appreciate youhaving me on, I got to get to
this VA appointment.

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TuneIn.
Okay so, manny, I've got acouple questions about the

(28:00):
production of this documentaryand your ability to tell a story
from, I guess you could say, asecondhand perspective that
still is so impactfulbattlefield combat, casualty

(28:20):
care, kinetic environments whichyou weren't physically in, and
then the last, basically, decadeof healing and processing, and
I mean literally working throughyour family to help anthony get
situated, communicate andconvey these things for for his
healing.
So my first question, I guesswhat kind of a toll does that

(28:42):
take on you?

You know.
So the thing is the work I doas a documentarian and I don't
mean to be over the top orsensational, but it does take an
emotional toll on me.
My wife often jokes that I'mthe woman in the relationship
because I'm the emotional one.
But as a documentarian I dotake in a lot of emotion and

(29:07):
feeling and kind of wear that onmy sleeve a little bit and try
to, you know, take on theemotion of the people my brother
suffer when he was at some ofthe harder points in his life
drinking too much, maybesuicidal he talks about in the
movie.
It was hard.

(29:28):
I was at 3 am call.
I was one of those people, oneof the non-Marines he would call
.
You know, hey, man, I feelmessed up right now.
I feel like I just want to killmyself.
I feel like you know, I'm atthe bottom of a bottle whatever.
And I feel like you know I'm atthe bottom of a bottle whatever
and I was one of those 3 amcalls for him.
That I think that's why webecame so close after his time
in the.
I mean, we were brothers butbecame close as adults, as men,

(29:50):
and he trusted me with hisexperience as his brother and it
helped.
By the time we started, youknow, hey, I'm going to adopt
Allie, let's make a short film.
Hey, I'm going to do thesecarvings, let's make a short
film.
We kind of developed, you know,and so I started to understand
how he was using these projectsas new missions to help himself

(30:10):
heal.
And when the film became athing that we started talking
about, I knew that that would bethe ultimate way to help him
heal, like I tell I always.
He knew that that would be theultimate way to help him heal,
like I tell I always.
He didn't even want to be inthe movie.
He's like I want to go and Iwant to focus on these 17
families and I want them to tellthe story of their son.
And I said, yeah, anthony, butit's like Indiana Jones and the
temple of doom.
Nobody cares about the templeof doom until Indiana Jones

(30:33):
tries to get into it, like youknow.
And so, like you have to be theperson that connects these 17
families, because you're Anthonyand you're the guy that cares
and this is your story as muchas it is theirs.
And so I was able to bring thatto him and he relented.
I call him the reluctant hero,because it's like as a
storytelling, it's like I don'twant to do that but I'll do it

(30:55):
because that's the best way totell the story.
But when we would go, you know?
So my brother trusted me.
It took years and years, almost10 years trusted me with his
emotion and feeling and healing,and then he trusted me to go
into the homes of these peoplewith him and and it was never
sensational, it was never.
Tell me about how your son died,tell me about when you, you

(31:17):
know it was.
Tell me about Jared, you know.
Tell me about Joe, tell meabout John, you know.
And then that's, that's it was.
Tell me about Jared, you know.
Tell me about Joe, tell meabout John, you know, and then
that's, that's how it was.
Like I have interest as afilmmaker and as a human being
and as the brother of a Marinethat served with your son, to
know who your son was, who washe to you?
And then it just openedconversations.

(31:39):
And they were just openconversations.
They weren't, they weren't,they weren't.
There was no pressing, therewas no gotcha journalism, it was
conversations.
You, know.

Well, you guys went all over the place, right
Like.
I don't remember the exactorder off the top of my head,
but 34 states, 12,000 miles, 40days on the road.

Yeah, it was.
It was amazing.

Wait a minute, you did all that only in 40 days
.

Yeah, I mean the on the road.
Yeah, it was.
It was amazing, wait a minute,you did all that only in 40 days
.
Yeah, I mean, the majority ofthe movie was in 40 days.
There were some scenes, like,you know, pendleton came five
months later and there was onefamily that couldn't meet us
because the dad was a covid um,nurse or something, and the
covid was raging it like, so wehad to go back.
But 90 percent of the movie wasshot in the 40 days on the road
.
Yeah, yeah, and that was a.
That was a device I had kind ofcome up with.

(32:23):
You know, it was like as afilmmaker, you're always kind of
looking for a device like howcan I package this?
Oh, let's get two brothers inan RV and go on the road.
Okay, you know, we could havegotten to a minivan, it would be
a little less romantic.
Um, you know, we could havegone to a geo metro, but it's

(32:44):
like let's get into an rv and we.
And it turned out to be likethe right move for us as a film
production, because we were afilm production too and we had a
table in there and we hadcomputers set up and download
stations and battery chargingstations and you know lighting,
lighting compartments underneaththe rv where we had certain
state like it became a practicaldevice as much as it did a
vehicle to travel.

That's a cool idea too, yeah.
So what did that do?
Because a lot of peoplefamilies specifically start to
build some kind of relationshipor underpinning for a
relationship.
It's in small doses 40 daysbetween the two of you, within
10 feet of each other all thetime.
Did that cause some state?

We didn't argue much, I mean.
I mean I'll be honest and it'sthe elephant in the room and we
do address it slightly in themovie.
But I'll say, like you know,there's other movies that
address this.
There's.
This was not a movie about thewithdrawal.
This was a movie about thewithdrawal had just happened
when we went on the road in 21,the withdrawal from Kabul.
We had decided from the outsetthis is not a political film,

(33:47):
it's not a pro-war movie, it'snot an anti-war movie, it's a
pro-empathy and pro-healingmovie.
And so you know, when we wenton the road, some of my more
liberal left friends would sayyou really got to press them on
what they think about you know,Obama or Biden or Bush or this
and this, like we're not doingthat.
And some of my moreconservative friends are like
you got to blame Joe Biden andyou got to say we're not doing

(34:08):
that, we're going to tell thestory about their son and that's
that's the story we're going totell.
It's not a political movie, butwe do address.
We do address the withdrawal inthe movie.
You hear Anthony listening to apodcast about it and we do.
And we do ask a few familiesand, um, we have to.
It was the elephant in the room.
But the only time we only everargued was one time about the

(34:30):
withdrawal.
But we were just talking aboutthe withdrawal and we, we just
went back and forth and arguedwith each other and then we were
over it, I mean.
But we were 40 days on the road.
We didn't argue about the wayto make the movie.
We didn't argue about what wewere going to put in the movie.
We didn't.
Anthony trusted me and it'salways flattered me, humbly
flattered me that he's toldpeople I've heard him tell.
He doesn't tell me this, he'stold other people.

(34:50):
I like the way my brother tellsstories.
That's why I wanted to make themovie with him and feel honored
that he trusted me with that.

So it's like we didn't reallyargue at all.
We just argued that one timeabout one fine point, about the
withdrawal, but what the hell do, I know well, so, uh,
apparently quite a bit.
Now you've made, uh, someinroads throughout this
documentary to illustrate, youknow, with stock footage or
b-roll or first-hand accountsand actual video document, uh
documented from deployments,well, actually from that
deployment.

Yeah, that footage is from Nate McCord
.
He was combat photographer for1-5 at that time, so that
footage is from that deployment.
That's not stock, that's not,you know, just random
Afghanistan footage footage.
That is the deployment.

I mean, they're literally in trenches getting
rained on by rocks during mortarfire.
Yep, how did you come to theidea that you wanted firsthand
footage, give or take, seven oreight years after the fact, ten
years after the fact, and thenactually track this guy down to
get it?

so there were two things we said we
didn't want to make because wefelt like they've already
existed.
We didn't want to make a combatmovie because you have movies
like, um, what's the restrepo?
Oh yeah, great movies, greatmovies, but they're super combat
footage, heavy, obviously, um.
And we didn't want to make acemetery movie where it's just
17 cemeteries.

(36:22):
You know there are cemeteriesin the movie and it's
appropriate.
But we wanted to make a moviethat goes beyond just the
battlefield and the cemetery,because so many movies fall into
that kind of kind of pattern.
I think, um, we have both ofthose things, but we're we're
sparing with them.
Um.
But the thing we did too was wenever wanted the combat footage
to be sensational.
We never wanted to see someonegetting blown up.

(36:47):
We never wanted to see somebodydead.
We never wanted to see.
You know, even when you seeRobert Grineger being Kazovac,
it's mostly photos because, itremoves you.
You see the chopper and then yousee the photos and it removes
you a little bit from the real,visceral nature of that actual.
You know, it's just everythingwe did.
We wanted to be respectful tothe families and respectful to
what we were saying, withouttrying to make a spectacle of

(37:09):
their deaths and like so.
That was like a real balance todo that and I think we achieved
that.
And everything that's combatfootage and combat related is in
support of the story.
It's never sensational, youknow.
I mean even the scene with theAfghan children, I mean it's my
favorite, it's one of myfavorite scenes, it's one of the
most like you know.

(37:31):
You know Gonzalez writing hisgrandmother saying pray for
these little children.
They're no different than my,they're no different than my
children.
Yeah, who was that?
That was Gonzalez's fatheron,gonzalez senior read it.

Yeah, okay, out of the book yeah yeah, that was
cool you know that's combat too,though right, that's what I was
gonna say there's a supportrole, yeah, yeah, and that's and
that's like from my perspective.
I'll tell you this when Iwatched it just two days ago
okay, when I watched thedocumentary, as soon as it was
over, I sent it to my mom and myfriends and my family and some

(38:07):
other, uh, veteran organizationsI work with here in the area.
I said you guys got to watchthis, but it was for two reasons
.
One, cause it was just reallywell done and it was.
It was engaging from start tofinish for me.
But it wasn't like it put meback into a position that I
wasn't ready to process.
It put me in a position that Iwas able to process.

(38:29):
But the second thing I reallyreally, really like about how
you told this story in the movieis it also showcased for people
like me, veterans, servicemembers, whichever the other
other side of the coin.
I get home I don't ask my familyhow was that for you?
Because I generally don't care,I'm detached, I'm still doing
my own thing and life in themilitary happens so fast by the

(38:52):
time I even consider askinganybody else.
What did you think?
How was the last couple ofmonths for you other than we
mowed the yard and took out thetrash.
You know what'd you hear on thenews?
How was it?
What did you go through?
I'm already on to the nexttraining exercise, or you know,
I I don't even think about it,but you told that story.

I think , effectively there was a thing
that we did in the movie um, andI like to say this, and I mean
this very respectfully a lot ofguys and women, I'm sure, come
home and they want to tell theirstory of their deployment or
their experience or they want tokind of heal somehow cathartic
way, and they've made a lot.
I've seen a lot of videos madeum and anthony and I talked

(39:33):
about this.
There's a kind of a genre ofveteran video on youtube.
You know, this was mydeployment.
I interviewed five guys here'smy commander, blah blah.
But they and I mean this in themost respectful way they don't.
They're not movies, they'relike video journals or video
diaries.
And Anthony said, anthony saidto me like this has to be a

(39:53):
movie, this, this can't be aYouTube video.
Like this has it means and Iwas so happy to hear him say
that it has to exist as a pieceof cinema first, and it was like
I think that's it, man, becauseas a filmmaker we can make
movies all day about deploymentsand loss and the fallen, and
but if we can't deliver in apackage that that takes it

(40:16):
beyond just the YouTube kind ofportrayal that you see in a lot
of things, and I mean it fullyrespectfully.
It has to feel like a movie.
You have to watch it and go man, there was some great
cinematography in that.
That was amazing.
There was some good music therewas, there was great pacing
there was.
Wow, it sounded good.
The audio wasn't bad.
Like it's a movie.
It is a movie and so whenpeople sit down to watch it,

(40:38):
they've seen a movie, and nowthey've seen a movie about 17
Gold Star families and 17 fallenMarines that they've been
entertained.
They've also been informed andit wasn't hard for them to watch
because it was well done and Ithink that and I'm not saying
that because I made.

I'm saying that that was the goal, you know,
yeah, but I imagine you'regetting objective feedback from
total strangers confirming that.

I mean, I can tell you you, you know,
I'm not not to be political like.
I've had people that are by farnot patriotic in their politics
, they're maybe even far leftsay, I am against a military,
but I love your movie, likepeople.
It's not like I've never, I'venever supported military stuff,
but I love your movie.
You know, um, and I'm like,well, you know we were changing,

(41:25):
we, because we presented amovie, not propaganda, we
presented a movie and I thinkyou did very well.

Yeah, it, it flowed, it had impact, but it
had levity too.
It wasn't all difficult,difficult to digest.
Some of it was relatable and,like I said, I haven't been to
Sangan, but that's like sayingyou know, I've, I've been to the
United States and so have you.
Okay, well, tulsa is not Tampa,which is where I, you know it.

(41:53):
Sure, but there's differencesthe culture, the environment,
the setting, the way peoplecommunicate, how things, I guess
, trigger certain people,certain people.
You know it changes and dudeyou.
Just, you nailed it, it wasreally good well, thank you.

You did say something at the beginning
of the podcast about humanity.
Yeah, and and I and I say thatto anthony all the time like
that's back to the the afghanchildren scene.
They're like my children,they're no different than my
children, it's like there is ashared humanity we all have in.
In that shared humanity weunderstand several things we
understand loss, we understandpain and like.

(42:29):
In that we understand at least.
A good friend of mine who's afilmmaker said this is not a
movie about healing it's.
It's a movie about the searchand attempt to heal that may
never come.
And I was like you know hemight be right, because that
wound may never fully scap, itmay still bleed.
We just try to stop thebleeding a little bit and do it

(42:51):
together, you know.
And so like that, that's that'swhat I think we try to
accomplish.
And you know, a lot of thesefamilies didn't know each other
before Anthony, you know.
And so one of the moms in themovie says you know, you have
one stick and you try to breakit.
It's easy.
You take 17 sticks and you tryto break it.
It's a lot harder.
So the XVII, the 17 that Anthonycame up with, those 17 men that

(43:13):
he honored through his carvingsand through this movie.
Now those people have that goldstar.
Those gold star families havebecome a family because of Make
Peace or Die and because of thework of Anthony.
So for him it was hard to seethat he still had a mission.
And he talked about it earlier,like oh, I'm not in uniform,
I'm a shitheel, I'm not doingthese things.

(43:34):
Like no, I have a differentmission.
And now I see it, you know, andlike that.
That was when that clicked forhim, when we were making this
movie.
He told me one day I see thatthis is my mission now.
And it was like he's like I canyou know?
And now he's married, he hasthree children.

He's, he's come along.
You know he's come a long way.
Yeah, well, good for him.
And, like I said, for the bothof you, being able to foster
that degree of empathy andhealing is difficult from a
first person perspective.
A second person perspective,it's just tough to communicate
because, I think, you know,value systems are invisible,
they're communicated onlythrough action and we're so
inculcated with only payingattention to what's verbal or

(44:14):
what's written.
And the whole documentary forme could have been a silent
movie and I think you would haveonly have lost a little of your
audience.
It was awesome, dude, and Idon't know how to say that
anymore impactfully, but it wasreally well done.
And so when you look back andthese are really my last two

(44:37):
questions for you when you lookback on making the documentary,
helping Anthony process and thenyour own personal journey,
which I'm sure you grewthroughout that as well, what
are some of the key lessons thatyou learned about conveying
that kind of degree of resonanceand empathy and healing to
total strangers?

Jared Verbeek's mother, rosalia
Verbeek.
They're in Visalia, california.
We went to film with them andshe made us breakfast.
She wanted us to have breakfastbefore we filmed.
Very kind of her and we satdown.
She sat down, put a mic on herand I just said tell me about
Jared.
And she just lit up like thestate fair.

(45:19):
She said, right there, you acomplete stranger.
I've never met you in my life.
You saying Jared, say it againJared, jared, jared.
I never want anyone to stopsaying his name.
That's why I do this, because Iwant people to know the name of
my son and who Jared Verbeekwas.
And it was like we were at, wewere off to the races and it.
It taught me immediately that,like I just have to be a conduit

(45:42):
to provide a platform for thesefamilies.
They have everything they wantto say.
They know what they want to say.
They love their son, they lovetheir husband, they love their
father.
They know what they want to say.
I just have to, being adirector, literally I just have
to be there to listen and like,corral them into a way that
narratively makes sense.
But I don't do anything, butjust provide the space.

Do you find that you do that?
Well, I'm lying now.
This is my second to lastquestion.

Do you find that you've done that more
regularly now since startingthis documentary, just in
regular conversation with familyfriends, that you give them
more space to be human, or areyou still just sort of you know
your own individual and I'vebeen a filmmaker now for 25
years in some way or fashion,from from being a production
assistant grabbing coffee tobeing a director of two feature

(46:34):
docs and and you know I direct,you know, short form docs as as
my daily living, basically.
But I've become, I think, morecharitable, which is something
like I I don't go into anythingwith an agenda anymore than I
really other than I have to ifit's a client or something, but

(46:56):
in the, in the work, my own work, I just want to be um, in a
mode of discovery andreceptiveness.
That that is charitable.
And like open to everyone'sexperience and like not prejudge
who they are or what they'vebeen through and like to me,
make peace or die made me abetter filmmaker.

(47:16):
Because I think you go, oh, I'ma director, I've been doing
this 25 years, I know what i'm'mgoing to do, I know what I'm
going to say, I know what I'mgoing to ask.
I have no idea in hell what I'mdoing.
I need to go and let the storybe what it is, and there were 17
different stories plusAnthony's that needed to
coalesce and that was a massiveundertaking.

(47:37):
How do you take 160 hours offootage and make a 90 minute
movie that that is engaging andmakes sense.
You know, and there's a lot ofhumility to your editors, to
your collaborators, to mybrother's opinion, and still
maintaining control of the shipbecause somebody has to go.
You guys are thank you for that.

(47:58):
But no, hey, that's better thanmy thing, thank you, I hadn't
even thought of that.
You know, I'm not a marine,thank you.
That makes more sense, likeit's just really being um, open
and charitable to what comes atyou, but humble enough to, uh,
you know, take, take thosethings, and then strong enough

(48:19):
to trust your own creativeinstinct, because there's a
reason why you've been giventhis vocation.

What does that kind of stewardship do to
instigate your own self-worth?

Oh gosh , you know.
I mean, like Anthony said, weare religious guys.
I don't know, I don't think I'ma great person, I'm a sinner
like anybody else, but I dothink that I have a certain
talent that God has given me tolisten to people and to tell
stories, and I've never deniedthat.
It's like I used to be like Idon't know faux, faux, humble or

(48:56):
something.
Oh no, you know, now I'm like,no, you know what, I am good at
that, and like I'm, I'm gonnaown that because, um, I think
that's a gift.
I think it's a gift that you'vebeen given and that you have to
own those gifts.
We're given a lot of grace andwe have to.
You know, I think flanneryo'connor said like sin is often,
um, the offer of grace refused,you know, and and and it's like

(49:17):
we have to look at that and golike, okay, if that's what sin
is, then what's the opposite ofthat?
Well then, I need to acceptthat grace, you know, and if
that grace, part of that grace,is being the ability to tell a
story, and the ability to tell astory can help heal a gold star
family or my brother fromblowing his own brains out, then
maybe that's a grace I have toaccept, you know.

Yeah, yeah, that's heavy too.

Yeah, sorry.

I didn't mean to go, so no, no, no, not at all,
it's totally valid.
I mean, giving some dignity toother people and space to other
people is way easier than givingit to yourself.
But yeah, being in a positionwhere you can start to identify,
giving yourself some gracethroughout that transformation
is, I think, unequivocallyimportant.

I hope we can just keep doing this and
we can tell more stories and youknow it's like I said, it's
what I do for a living.
But there's other veteranstories we want to tell.
I'm working on a Vietnam storyright now, actually about some
Marines.

And so trying to get funding and just trying to
trying to do the next thing youknow so well, let's, let's stay
in touch.
I think I've got a coupleoutlets that may work well for
you, either for sponsors,contributors or just assistance
with your documentaries.
I'm, I'm totally down, man.
I agree wholeheartedly withanthony.
I think your ability to tell astory well, based exclusively on
the fashion you did in MakePeace or Die, is phenomenal.
It was just really good, awesomejob, man.

(50:47):
So let me say this We've talkedabout it now for the last hour.
We've mentioned that it was onPBS November 2024.
And then obviously, thisMemorial Day weekend, 2025.
But where do people find it?
How do people get in touch withyou guys to, I don't know, see
it.

Well, you can go to our website,
makepieceordiefilmcom and youcan contact us from there.
The film is available on PBSfor free PBS Passport app until
June 21st and it's available onthe PBS YouTube until June 21st
for free.
Pbs Passport app until June21st and it's available on the
PBS YouTube until June 21st forfree.
I can say, without saying toomany other things, we're in
talks with another distributorthat we're trying to get a

(51:28):
theatrical release for it.
We do think that, despite therun it's had on television,
which has been great, we couldget some traction and there's
still an audience in thetheaters for this, and so we're
working on theatricaldistribution and then we're
working on further homestreaming options that would be
on just PBS.
But we've been really thankfulto PBS because they we were

(51:51):
turned down from 15 mainstreamfilm festivals and you can
imagine name 15 of them, thethree of them off the top of
your head and you're going toguess right.
We were turned down from 15film festivals and pbs saw the
film and saw the value and sawthat it represented a large
swath of what america is andthey offered to put it out on
independent lens and we're verygrateful for that outlet because

(52:12):
it's been very, very, uh,rewarding for us and for our
Gold Star families.

I mean, you've got billions of people now that
have seen this story and watchedthis documentary that you guys
have impacted from just for 90minutes of their lives and you
could have potentially alteredthe next 70 years for each of
them.

When Robert Grineger died, anthony
was on the base and they werehaving the memorial, you know in
country.
He was holding the flag whenGeneral Savage came up and said
he wasn't a general then but hewas their commander and he said
this man died for millions ofAmericans that will never know
his name.
And Anthony put that into hishead.
He was standing there holdingthe colors and he put that into

(52:56):
his head and he goes.
I need to change that.
Americans need to know who heis.
And 10 years later, make Peaceor Die camp we made Make Peace
or Die Almost 13,.
14 years later, make Peace orDie comes out and millions of
Americans do know the name ofRobert Greninger because Anthony
heard that challenge fromGeneral Savage at his memorial,
saying millions of Americans hedied for, millions of Americans

(53:17):
will never know his name.
And Anthony thought I'm goingto change that.

I think he has.
It's super cool.
I again really appreciate theopportunity to talk to you and
Anthony about the documentary,about each other, about the
experience, about filming it.
But honestly, I don't know if Ican say more importantly but I
don't know a more appropriatephrase I really really
appreciate the fact that we werealso able to showcase that

(53:43):
there's another perspectiveabout these operations, about
these deployments, about theseexperiences and just what we go
through firsthand.
I've never seen it, I've neverheard it.
I may have been told it before,but I've never listened.
And you took me through 90minutes of yeah, but what about
everybody else?
And so that may not have beenyour intention necessarily, but

(54:06):
for me it was just really goodman, it was really cathartic, it
was an awesome opportunity.
So I hope you continue to tellthese stories, I hope you
continue to put content out andmake more documentaries, but at
least for right now, I'm reallyreally glad you were able to get
it on PBS Passport, becausethat's where I watched it, yeah,
well thank you.

Yeah, we appreciate you watching it
and I'm sorry, anthony, couldn'tstay longer, but you know how
the VA is.
You got your appointment, yougot to go.

Yeah, yeah, no problem.
No problem at all.
I think we will stay in touchdefinitively and obviously this
is going to get streamed onReads Across America Radio,
it'll be on Audible, it'll be oniHeart, it'll be on TuneIn and
Odyssey and everywhere else.
Everybody listens to their mostfavorite awesome podcasts all

(54:53):
the time, whatever they do whenthey listen to them.
But for right now, I'd alsolike to thank all of our
supported and supportingorganizations like Florida
Veterans Coalition, race AcrossAmerica Radio, firewatch
Magazine, the American Legion,florida Association of
Veteran-Owned Businesses andeverybody else, obviously, who's
had a hand becoming anambassador and telling people

(55:14):
about Transacting Value.
If you guys enjoyed thisconversation and then you're
going to love the rest of ourconversation, so head over to
transactingvaluepodcastcom.
You'll find a link to listen tothis conversation and in the
dropdown or, depending on theplayer, you're streaming it on,
click, see more, click, showmore, and you will then see
links to the film website formakepieceordiefilmcom.

(55:36):
You'll be able to get in touchwith Anthony and Manny there as
well and then obviously, likejust heard Manny say, until June
21st, you'll also be able tofind links there to get to PBS
Passport and PBS YouTube be ableto watch it for free.
So I appreciate thisopportunity to hang out and talk
with you guys.
I hope you guys enjoyed theconversation as well, but until

(55:57):
next time that was TransactingValue.
Thank you to our show partnersand folks.
Thank you for tuning in andappreciating our value as we all
grow through life together.
To check out our otherconversations or even to
contribute through feedback,follows, time, money or talent
and to let us know what youthink of the show, please leave
a review on our website,transactingvaluepodcastcom.

(56:20):
We also stream new episodesevery Monday at 9 am Eastern
Standard Time through all ofyour favorite podcasting
platforms like Spotify, iheartand TuneIn.
You can now hear TransactingValue on Reads Across America
Radio.
Head to reedsacrossamericaorg.
Slash transactingvalue tosponsor a wreath and remember,
honor and teach the value offreedom for future generations.

(56:41):
On behalf of our team and ourglobal ambassadors, as you all
strive to establish clarity andpurpose, ensure social
tranquility and secure theblessings of liberty or
individual sovereignty ofcharacter for yourselves and
your posterity, we will continueinstigating self-worth and
we'll meet you there.
Until next time.

(57:02):
That was Transacting Value.

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