August 4, 2025 • 50 mins
Become a Global Ambassador for Self-Worth. Text us your feedback!
Dance movement psychotherapist and relationship coach Chloe De Sousa takes us on a journey through the landscape of embodied healing, revealing how our physical selves hold onto grief, trauma, and joy—and how movement can help us process what we've been carrying. Drawing from her personal experiences of childhood attachment wounds and adult heartbreak, Chloe illuminates the power of meditative dance practices like Five Rhythms to access different emotional states. Unlike performance dance, these practices create a container for authentic expression without judgment or audience, allowing us to find congruence between our movements and emotions.
(13:58) https://porthouse.kw.com/
(37:51) https://www.transactingvaluepodcast.com/a-doctors-journey-through-ptsd-with-saloni-surah/
Ecstasy & Bliss are your birthright, visit https://feralgrace.net/ to learn more about Chloe and feral grace.
Looking for more perspective, empowerment, and self-worth?
For a chance to hear your question answered on the air, remember to Subscribe and Leave a Voice Message at TransactingValuePodcast.com!
We'll meet you there.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Josh Porthouse (00:00):
The views expressed in this podcast are
solely those of the podcast hostand guest and do not
necessarily represent those ofour distribution partners,
supporting businessrelationships or supported
audience.
Welcome to Transacting Value,where we talk about practical
(00:22):
applications for instigatingself-worth when dealing with
each other and even withinourselves, where we foster a
podcast listening experiencethat lets you hear the power of
a value system for managingburnout, establishing boundaries
, fostering community andfinding identity.
My name is Josh Porthouse, I'myour host and we are redefining
sovereignty of character.
(00:42):
This is why values still holdvalue.
This is Transacting Value.
Chloe De Sousa (00:49):
Chaos is the release that lots of us are
looking for.
I'm not a drinker and I'm notdown on drinkers, but I don't
need to drink when I've gotchaos in my life that I can
dance through.
Josh Porthouse (01:01):
But I own Transacting Value.
What happens when we deploy,when we leave for long periods
of time?
More specifically, what happensto our kids and then as kids?
How might we interpret thoseinteractions?
What does it do for ourself-expression and, ultimately,
what can it do for ourself-worth?
Today we're talking to dancemovement psychotherapist and
(01:23):
relationship and intimacy coach,Chloe D'Souza.
All about what it looked likefor her and some suggestions,
recommendations and insightsthat she's gotten along the way
to fix everything.
I'm Josh Porthouse, I'm yourhost and from SDYT Media.
This is Transacting Value,Chloe, how are you doing?
Chloe De Sousa (01:44):
I'm doing good.
It's nighttime, my time, butthat's okay.
The house is cool.
Josh Porthouse (01:50):
Yeah, I mean so you've had wait, you're what
five hours ahead of East?
Coast.
Yeah, yeah, okay, all right,well, so let's just start there,
then I think it may eventuallyhave come out, probably with
your accent or something, foranybody listening to the audio
version of this, but let's justtake the first couple of minutes
then and set the stage, becausethere's a lot of stuff in that
(02:11):
intro to unpack, especially in45 minutes.
So maybe for the sake ofefficiency and a little bit of
resonance.
Who are you?
Where are you from?
What sort of things are shapingyour perspective on life as it
applies to all of these?
Chloe De Sousa (02:24):
things'm.
Like you said, I'm arelationship and intimacy coach.
My background really studiesthe body for a very long time.
So there you had my dancemovement psychotherapy in there.
I'm also an ecstatic danceteacher five rhythms.
So I've looked for a long timeon what our bodies hold.
So I've looked for a long timeon what our bodies hold, the
(02:44):
effect that that has on us andalso what we can release along
the way.
So the further I've got into mycareer, the more I go into
nervous system work.
So, if you like, any event thattakes place you know, good or
bad, whatever you want towhatever.
These days I would just sayemotional, Unless you've had a
(03:05):
great amount of time within thatmoment to realize what it means
to you and and what what you'retaking away from it.
Most of us have got incompleteevents in us, um, and I for
myself, the more I've traveledthrough life, I try and catch up
on the events as they go along,but they leave a mark on us.
So I'm here to help people with, for example, you know, you
(03:27):
know when you'd like to behaveone way, but you know you
pattern in a certain way and itkeeps coming out.
Well, I'm here to help peoplelook at what is under the
pattern, Because if you releasethat little bit, you start to
behave a little bit differentlyand your world could open up,
probably to a bit more lovethat's interesting.
Josh Porthouse (03:47):
So what do you mean like anxious behaviors?
Chloe De Sousa (03:50):
anxious behavior , defensive behaviors, anger,
addiction yeah everything reallyfrom um attachments obviously
in there that's kind of quite abuzzword at the moment, but you
know when or even contradictorybehavior.
For example, a client of minecame to me.
I really want to meet someoneyou know and I'm like, oh great,
(04:12):
fantastic, I can help you withthat.
And then you find in her systemthat she's.
She suffered great loss withinthe first few months of her
marriage, which ended with theloss of her husband, so her
heart carries a contradiction.
I really want to meet someone.
I'm terrified of meeting someonein case I lose them, so so
(04:32):
there's two events of there's athere's a conflict of desires,
but once you realize you havethe capacity to hold your heart
through something and say, hey,I, I understand where we need to
risk loss, but we're going todo it anyway because we want
love more than that, we want tolive again, even though we lost
(04:53):
him oh, I like that, and youdiscovered this through dance uh
, primarily through my ownhistory was I found dance floors
at about the age of 17, 18.
I found them more consciously,if you like, if that is such a
thing at about 21.
And I started to digest thefreeze in my body from my own
(05:15):
childhood.
So I had very damagedattachment.
As a kid I didn't really knowwhich way was up.
There wasn't a lot of emotionalliteracy going on for me and
when I started to move Irealized that there was pain,
there was grief, there was,there was bliss, that there was
anger, and when I let my bodyexpress it on a dance floor I
(05:35):
wasn't hurting anyone, so I feltfree to really move.
When you get that kind ofalignment happening, there's a
massive sense of relief in ahuman being system and and
that's when you start to digestevents without needing a
cerebral cortical narrative evenyou're just just letting stuff
move.
I went on to study a degreewhich was cultural anthropology
(05:58):
and looking at, like medicinesystems around the world, what
was working, and spent a lot ofthat decade traveling and
immersing myself in stuff andcame to hold five rhythms dance
floors to work the magic withother people like provide
environments that people couldwork their stuff out.
Then I got deeply into coachingbecause of a, a massive
(06:20):
heartbreak in my adult life.
So you, you've got childhoodtrauma, you've got adult trauma.
That holds a different tone andI don't know if you've heard of
the hindsight window.
You might be interested in that, josh.
Let's say I haven't.
Josh Porthouse (06:34):
What is that?
Chloe De Sousa (06:35):
So for me it's something you can't really fake.
So my life went into.
It just kind of imploded.
One day my marriage broke down.
It was right, right, you know,a surprise to me, and it was
like nothing was left, and I I'mthe sort of person that tends
to map things because I want tooffer them to other people.
(06:58):
So I gathered a load of toolsto to help mend my own
heartbreak, and an embodimentwas a lens that really helped me
out.
It was like, okay, so thishurts.
What's the communication?
And so the hindsight window isthe amount of time it takes from
an event that at the time seemsshocking or hard, to the point
(07:21):
that you can get to where,naturally and organically in
your life, you realize theblessing or the gift that that
event gave you.
Now you have to choose somemeaning on it.
So for me, I learned how toheal my heart.
When the event first happened Iwasn't like celebratory, I
wasn't thinking great.
I learned how to heal a brokenheart.
Josh Porthouse (07:44):
Yeah, not now.
Chloe De Sousa (07:45):
You know, but through hard work and wanting to
head towards repair, there wasa moment where I saw the grace
of what had happened to me.
I saw almost the amazingopportunity that I had in this
lifetime to experience how tomend my own heart.
It felt incredible and it was aquiet moment of kind of peace
(08:11):
and relief and a moment of kindof circle.
That was a lot, and so whenthose moments happen and
hopefully I provide thosemoments for people now you can't
rush a moment like that, butit's amazing because, instead of
(08:31):
being in the victim role, whichis an important part of the
heroine or hero's journey youthen have a reason why that you
found for yourself or a humanitythat that like, oh okay, this
has happened to a lot of people,including myself, and and now,
what do I want to do with that?
Josh Porthouse (08:53):
yeah, but identifying that.
I guess there's three things Iwanted to bring up based on what
you just said.
Identifying that from, I meanessentially like a silent actor
in dance, I mean you're notvocalizing anything, unless
actually I can't really think ofany dancers that are also
(09:15):
vocalizing at the same time.
So, as a silent actor, how youprocess through that or identify
those kinds of triggers.
But then, as a ofself-expression, I think dance
pretty much holds its own nowover the last couple thousand
years.
But to be able to do thatintentionally you know what I
mean it's like a speaker up on astage or in front of a crowd or
(09:38):
with a microphone you knowstand-up comedy or in any degree
of seriousness I think is ableto convey that kind of rhetoric
and assess it based off anaudience's response and then do
something with it.
Right, it's a three piece kindof thing, but as a dancer you're
not focused on the audience.
You're.
You're present in the moment,but the audience may as well
(10:00):
bleed away, right?
So my first question is how wasdance then a way for you to
identify or become aware of anyof those triggers?
And then, secondly, how did youuse it to grow and respond to
whatever it was doing for youfirst of all, it was a
performance dance, which wasamazing.
Chloe De Sousa (10:21):
So it was more of a meditative dance.
So it was more like there'sfive different rhythms and
they're going to bring outdifferent pieces of you, if you
like.
So there's flowing, staccato,chaos, lyrical and stillness.
So you put your body in anenvironment where there is flow
and and you start to receiveyourself, your, your attention
(10:42):
goes inside.
You put yourself in anenvironment of staccato, much
more angular.
You've got the out-breath.
Your attention comes outside,to the world.
Even that's catalytic enough tobring up something like how
scared some people are to assertthemselves.
You start to flex that muscle.
You're going to uncover why youdon't want to flex that muscle
(11:04):
of of like being seen,expressing, interacting with
another.
Why am I scared of that?
It's going to come up.
Why am I scared to go inside?
What's what's there?
Chaos is the release that lotsof us are looking for.
You know, I'm not.
I'm not a drinker and I'm notdown on drinkers, but like I
don't need to drink when I'vegot chaos in my life that I can
(11:26):
dance through like it's like,yeah, it's, it's just like you
let your body move any which wayit wants to move and there's
rhythms and music.
I would play to it to providethat environment for the dancers
.
The recall is like after you'veemptied, you know for for
anybody, you know, like the the2, 3 am slot, if everyone's
(11:48):
anyone stayed up that late andyou get into this zone.
Lyrical is a bit like that zoneand stillness they call it the
healing rhythm because whenyou're that empty, your body is
an organism, if you like justwants to bring itself into
balance.
Your body as an organism, ifyou like, just wants to bring
itself into balance.
So it wasn't performance dance.
(12:08):
So you're listening all thetime to the congruence between
your body movement and whatyou're feeling.
You're looking for thatcongruence and when you find it,
you know it, because your mindstills which?
Is an amazing experience.
Josh Porthouse (12:23):
Yeah, yeah, I bet it is Now.
You mentioned something thatbefore we recorded I think is
interesting to that point.
You said it helped you identifyor maybe align with your inner
child.
Is that because it's just moreplayful and self-expressive and
(12:43):
not as controlled of anenvironment?
Or not as self-controlled maybeof an environment?
Or how did one bring about theother?
Chloe De Sousa (12:52):
I think I've always been a little bit wild
and I wanted an environmentwhere I was allowed to be that,
and dance schools held thatspace for me Also.
I was very sad as a child.
Um, I didn't live with my momfrom about the age of six and
(13:13):
and there.
So there was kind of continualgrief for me in my childhood.
So strangely and this is like Iwant to send you playlists now,
josh but strangely likewhenever I was dancing and I
moved my hands, I ended upcrying like it wasn't like
literally my grief was in myhands, but maybe my hands could
tell the story of my grief.
(13:33):
maybe it was a bit of aninteraction between the two.
Like you said, we don't existin a vacuum, um, and then one
day it was gone, like I moved myhands and I didn't cry, it was
complete, we were done, we movedon.
Ad (13:53):
Alrighty, folks sit tight and we'll be right back on
Transacting Value.
Josh Porthouse (13:58):
Tampa Bay Sun-kissed beaches, a thriving
art scene and a community thatembraces diversity.
It's more than just a place tolive.
It's a lifestyle.
At Porthouse Tampa Bay Realtor,I understand that finding the
right home is about more thanjust square footage.
It's about finding the rightcharacter, culture and community
.
It's about finding a placewhere you can truly belong
(14:21):
Alongside a network ofexperienced marketers, inspect
realtors and lenders.
We're not just experts in thetampa bay market.
We are your neighbors and we'repassionate about helping you
find the perfect place to callhome.
Follow along on youtube,facebook and linkedin at
porthouse tampa bay realtor.
Porthouse tampa bay realtorwhere values start in the home
(14:45):
and then one day it was gone.
Chloe De Sousa (14:47):
Like I moved my hands and I didn't cry, it was
complete, we were done, we movedon you know there's.
Josh Porthouse (14:57):
There's a lot of ways people learn and I'm not
necessarily trying to preach tothe choir here, but I'm going
somewhere with this and so tosay that you know, the more
senses you can inundate somebodywith to a particular point or
construct, the more likelythey're going to not only
remember it but be able to relyon it, interpret it, analyze it,
(15:17):
do something constructive or, Iguess, destructive with it.
Right, and it sounds a lot likewhat you're describing.
Isn't just maybe that griefcycle where you sort of dwell
and stay in the past and thinkabout it, but then you can also
feel it and drive some sort of Idon't know adrenal response or
or some sort of like what's theword?
(15:39):
Neurotypical response?
to whatever those emotions areand and you know lymphatically
force your body to process themout, is there any relevance to
that kind of physiology orphysiological response?
Is that what keeps you around,working with dance and trauma
(16:00):
and relationship?
Chloe De Sousa (16:01):
have you read Bessel van der Kolk?
the body keeps the score no,okay he was amazing he first
started work with I'd reallyrecommend it to anyone who wants
to heal themselves and includeall of themselves in their
healing so he started workingwith veterans first of all that
were were suffering from whatwas undiagnosed back there as
(16:23):
post-traumatic stress.
Post-traumatic stress wasn't inthe medical big books in those
days.
So you had veterans sufferingfrom flashbacks and all sorts of
things going on and theyweren't happening.
But for the veterans it washappening.
Ptsd is such a thing.
So he started to look at wherethe nervous system was storing
(16:47):
these events and a sense thatthese events needed to end at
the.
Where the nervous system wasstoring these events and and a
sense that these events neededto end for the person, but also
that somehow the body wasstoring it.
The body kept the score onthose events.
So he started to look at like,what did the body need to do in
order to, to make peace to thebody, to know that it was no
longer taking place, but also,but also, the digestion was in
(17:10):
feeling it so often with myclients, to use a less catalytic
example um, what, what?
You know the, the verycolloquial phrase, what we
resist persists, right, if, ifI'm, if I'm sitting on something
like my sexuality or my love ormy hate.
(17:30):
It sits there taking up a lotof space.
Actually, when I let myselffully, fully express my hate or
my love or my sexuality, it justmoves where it needs to move.
I'm no longer scared of it andI'm less likely to suffer from
depression because I'm notscared of what I'm feeling.
It gets expressed, it moves onlike I don't hold on to it
(17:53):
because that moment's done andI'm I'm on to the next thing but
, we, we tend and I see this alot we, we haven't been taught
that the capacity of our humanheart is so immense.
You give the human heart theright conditions and it knows
what to do.
And so to provide spaces withpeople.
And people say to me oh, I feellike I can say anything to you,
(18:16):
but you kind of can, becauseI'm not going to shame you.
Whatever you're feeling iswelcome, and all sorts of
scenarios have been described tome.
When you, when you get in anenvironment where you give a
human being that level oflistening, they work things out
very quickly.
Because I'm not, because it'snot censored for them themselves
(18:39):
, inside of themselves and withme as a human being, to find out
what the logic is in, in what'sgoing on for them because then
it doesn't have to be logical.
Yeah, exactly, exactly so.
And there's always that thatyou know.
The mind, body, intelligencehas such a great logic, but you
have to listen from a slightlydifferent place.
(18:59):
So maybe a slightly catalyticthing going on here.
I'm interested.
What went on for you there?
You kind of leant back and tooka breath in.
Josh Porthouse (19:09):
Yeah.
Chloe De Sousa (19:12):
So one woman that I worked with, she was
having affairs okay, withmarried men, so that's a kind of
taboo thing to do.
I don't condone that behavior.
But if it's a client, I'm notjudging that behavior either.
But we want to get underneathwhat's going on for that human
being and in the end we got it.
(19:33):
It was like she thinks that ifshe's in a relationship with a
man because of her childhood,they're going to take over,
direct and dominate her life.
So what's the smart thing to do?
Have a relationship with a manthat can't move in, can't
dominate your life, because he'salready got a wife and so she
(19:53):
keeps herself safe.
So there's a logic in herbehavior.
But once you realize thatthat's your logic, you can start
to think well, I'm perfectlyable not to let someone take
charge of my life and dominateme and move in if I don't want
them to.
She stops having affairs withmarried men just like that just
(20:13):
like that.
But you've got to feel itthrough, but you've got to
realize what there was a keythere.
She made, she made what shewasn't letting herself feel
conscious, and then, oh well, Ican stop doing that then yeah,
well, that's the thing.
Josh Porthouse (20:34):
Right like the the point that you brought up, I
got to thinking the longer youhold on to anything,
intentionally or otherwise, it'salways going to cause a problem
.
I couldn't think of anysituation where the longer you
hold on to something, the betterit gets.
Never that's a nice thought.
Unconsciously, for example, youeat a sandwich.
(20:57):
You look like somebody thateats a sandwich every now and
again enjoyed a good BLT, orwhatever.
Chloe De Sousa (21:02):
And so when you eat a, sandwich.
Josh Porthouse (21:04):
If you don't brush your teeth, the longer you
hold on to the bacon orwhatever in your mouth, it
sticks to your teeth, doesdamage, and that's without you
even trying.
Right Then the amount of, Idon't know, let's call it force
or pressure, maybe in your gripthat you could exert on anything
that you would need to, as yourmuscles fatigue to hold on to
(21:26):
something longer.
Eventually you're going to dropit and it's going to degrade
naturally, because you can'thold it forever.
Whatever it is Right.
You mentioned a point, theability.
I forget how you said it now,but the ability of the human
heart, the extent that it can,you know, feel or accommodate
(21:47):
loosely, to the point that youmade there, I guess I've always
thought about it and this iswhat clicked in my head when you
, you said something catalyticUm, well, I hadn't even thought
about it.
Actually, I guess I'd alwaysfelt that it's always easier to
feel the pessimistic, negative,heartfelt energies, right,
(22:08):
depression, anxiety, grief,anxiety, grief, sadness,
loneliness, futility, whatever,okay, and that's when, at least
for me, I'm more conscious ofwhatever emotional state I'm in.
But I don't know that I'veexperienced, and if I have, I
don't know that I've actuallyregistered what was happening,
that that everything, at leastas I understand science, is an
(22:32):
equal and opposite effect.
And so for the amount of depththat negative energies can have,
then the amount of liftpositive energies could have,
right, the equal and oppositepull or push, I guess of that
extreme.
And yeah, so I never thoughtabout it until you brought that
up, that you can't.
(22:52):
I call these types of people,or even myself, in these types
of moments, a time traveler,because obviously I can only go
as fast as the earth, right?
This isn't meant to be anactual science fiction reference
, but as an analogy, as ametaphor Physically I'm present,
but mentally I'm stuck in thepast and I can't figure out how
(23:14):
to get back, or I'm sopreoccupied with the future that
I have no idea what's happeningin the present, because
mentally I'm not here, eventhough physically.
That's where I'm aging right,and I guess it never really
occurred to me that eventuallyyou just have to let go and move
on and realize or reconcilethat it's not in your control.
(23:34):
In fact, maybe the only thingthat's in your control is to
control what you're feeling anddevelop that.
And so, anyway, all of that iswhat was going through my head
when you were describing thosethings, describing those things
that you know, whatever thetrauma is, whatever the
experience was, I spent themajority of a 15 year career in
(23:54):
in the U S military, uh, awayfrom my son, and so he's 10 now,
but I've really only beenaround him for maybe two years,
two and a half years physically,but I think probably close to
all 10 of those years, maybenine and a half years, I don't
know that I've really beenmentally present when I've been
physically around either.
So, yeah, there's a lot ofthose sort of dichotomies that
(24:17):
you brought up, where,identifying that kind of unity,
you sort of have to identify theprism that you're existing in
from a few different angles.
So what is it do you thinkabout?
Think about, let's say,self-expression in general,
because you don't dance like youused to, right, you focus more
on coaching, not physicaltherapy.
Chloe De Sousa (24:39):
I'm more of a coach these days, although I'm
going to launch a dance seriesthis year because I can't stay
away okay all right there it isyeah.
No, you're right yeah yeah sookay, so.
Josh Porthouse (24:50):
So what is it about self-expression that
worked, that now you're able torecreate for you, since you're
not dancing as much?
Chloe De Sousa (24:59):
yeah.
So what I'd like to go to is isis a lot of what you said.
So, first of all, like I lovewhat you said about the depth of
people, so point one, pleasurecapping is a concept that I love
to talk about because, just aswe resist the negative emotions,
even though we're moreconscious of them when they turn
(25:21):
up, you're right, when I'm,when I'm unhappy, it's easier to
spot.
I'm unhappy, when I'm happy,I'm just happy.
But I think there is somethingin the depths of things that,
having got, having got intopoints of my life where I was
very, very like rock bottom,rock bottom, that there is equal
(25:42):
a rise, that I can go, I can, Ican get very, very blissful as
well when the ingredients areright in my life, but I let
myself have a wide spectrum ofemotion or a depth and a height,
and so some of the work is isto look at culturally, where
we've been conditioned not tolet ourself have joy, that we
(26:05):
have guilt around being joyfulor we have.
We have guilt about justspending time with our kids
because we're meant to beworking, because we've been
taught that's more importantthan our kids, which I would um
contest every time, most of thetime you know we've got to bring
money in but also like, like,how, how to let ourselves go,
(26:26):
how to let our minds go, so thatwhen they pick a daisy and hand
it to us, that our heartexplodes, that we crack.
Because, there's nothing moreinnocent than a child.
I do more coaching these daysbecause I like to do the school
run as soon as I had kids.
(26:46):
It was harder to hold big dancefloor spaces because the money
I earned there just didn't seemworth what I could do if I was
reading a bedtime story.
But that's a personal, that'smy value system and you can see
that that's going to be high onmy value system because mom left
when I was six, so being a momis really important to me.
Ad (27:09):
Alrighty, folks sit tight and we'll be right back on
Transacting Value.
Chloe De Sousa (27:11):
So being a mom is really important to me and
you can see that that's going tobe high on my value system,
because mom left when I was six,so being a mom is really
(27:34):
important to me.
Josh Porthouse (27:36):
Well, it could have gone the other way.
Yeah.
You know, like that could havejust been what you accepted as
natural and not, I don't know,atypically nurtural, and just
said I'm not going to have kidsbecause how would I know if I
wouldn't do the same thing, orany of those types of responses,
right?
So yeah, obviously you madepeace with that, though.
Chloe De Sousa (28:00):
Yeah, yeah, I have.
You only need to look at yourparents' upbringing and their
parents' upbringing and theirparents' upbringing to realize
that the pain that was gettinghanded down.
Then you think, well, what do Iwant to do?
But it does involve questioning.
I haven't parented the way myparents parented me.
(28:22):
It's not because they did itwrong, it's.
It's just that I've questionedwhat attunement is.
I've watched my child's faceand and and when you, when you
can see an emotion come acrossit and you work out whether or
not they need scooping up orwhether they need resilience or
whatever it is that thatpersonality in that moment needs
from you, you start to listenfrom a different place.
(28:43):
You're not thinking about whatto do.
You're immediately your body'seither moving towards or away
from.
Most of the time with kids istowards, but some kids need a
lot of space yeah, it's true.
Josh Porthouse (28:56):
So some parents sometimes your diverse kids
often need a lot of space yeah,well, that's something
interesting too and maybe anentirely different conversation
just because of the amount ofbreadth they could cover.
But I think it's a matter ofmaybe interpreting those types
of expressions.
You know we're talking about,not anything specific.
(29:17):
Let's say autism.
That's the most popular, Ithink, topic right now in terms
of this neurodiverse category,right?
So I think it comes down tothis weird sort of dichotomy
where in your head you're,you're totally right on the mark
, processing the most importantthing in the world at that point
(29:39):
in time, right, and toeverybody else watching it or
hearing it happen, dude, whatare you doing?
No, that has nothing to do withwhat's happening right now.
Totally, totally off the mark,right, totally contrary to that
position.
And so it's such a weird thingwhere it's almost like a hyper
attunement in the present forone person and then a total
(30:02):
detachment and disassociationfrom everybody else's perception
when you get to these like,let's say, neurodiverse
expressions or expressions of anemotion, right, and then I
think, just because naturally westart to want to be in a
community or some sort oflike-minded safety net, like,
(30:23):
I'm not blind, I can see thatyou're laughing at me, not with
me, those types of moments, ofcourse I'm going to get whatever
emotions, my default frustratedor angry or you know whatever
and then, however it manifests,if I'm unfamiliar with how to
deal with it, and maybe I lashout or get physical or whatever
you know and and, and maybethat's the tantrum in the
department store that westereotypically hear about, you
(30:45):
know, and I think there's a lotin those experiences that we can
draw from, because there's alittle bit of every normal
whatever that is type ofhumanity in those types of
expressions and outbursts andmoments.
Some of us just have moreawareness and self-control than
others, but I don't think it'sreally that far off the mark for
(31:08):
any one of us and it's sort ofreined in or or or qualified
through the lens of parenting.
Uh, I think that.
I think that's complicated.
Um, let me say this I thinkit's complex because there's so
many different ways that youcould respond, but I think it's
(31:28):
very simple in in that once webuild some sort of
self-awareness or empathy, it'llfix itself one way or another,
it'll take care of itself, sortof like you said, the degree of
awareness you developed dancing,um, and then some sort of
forgiveness or grace foryourself now, then directly
(31:49):
translates into empathy andgives other people permission or
space or capability, you know,insight into how to do it for
themselves, and I mean, that'sthe.
That's the goal of parenting, inmy opinion.
You know, I have no idea howrich I'm going to be or how rich
he's going to be or whateveryou know, or whatever the metric
is.
If he's going to be good, bad,go to jail, be an upright
(32:11):
citizen.
I don't know, I'm not a fortuneteller, but at least in my head
, for my son, I look at it likeif he's able to contend with
himself and not ask me for helpeffectively, then I did good
enough.
That's all I really got to dealwith.
Yeah.
You know those types ofopportunities.
(32:31):
That's all I really got to dealwith.
Yeah, you know those types ofopportunities realizations,
maybe when you're raising yourkids or helping other people
learn to raise themselves.
I think those are almost alwaysrooted in some kind of a value
system, and so this is a segmentof the show called Developing
Character D-D-D-DevelopingCharacter kind of a value system
(32:51):
, and so this is a segment ofthe show called developing
character.
Developing character, and I'mcurious, specifically in your
case, about your value system.
And here's why we talked aboutthis a little bit off the air.
But I think, when it comes totransacting value, maybe as a
phrase that it's it's brokendown, like we talked about, into
(33:12):
these three pieces right, where, on one hand, it's internal and
it's cognition and behavior andhow we develop our own
awareness and introspection.
I think another piece is how wecommunicate that.
And then the third how weinterpret other people
communicating theirs and what wedo about it, how we interpret
other people communicatingtheirs and what we do about it.
(33:34):
And so, if we spread it outover time, a portion of this has
to be natural and a portion ofthis has to be nurtural.
So my first question and I'mgoing to ask you them both.
You can take it how you want.
My first question is what weresome of the values then that you
remember being raised around orbrought up on or hearing about
as a kid?
And then now, after your timeand experience and life and
(33:57):
growing, what then are some ofyour values now that you
actually stand on and try topass down and carry?
Chloe De Sousa (34:04):
can I start with a second question please?
I talk about my value systemquite a lot because I think it's
really important that everybodyknows what's in their value
system and it's different foreverybody.
So very close to the top of myvalue system list is fun, and I
(34:25):
think it's because I'm verycreative and when I'm having fun
I'm at my my most creative, butalso that's when my heart is
the most open also and alsoknowing what I find fun.
So this is fun for me.
I'm talking to someone I'venever met before on the other
side of the world.
We've you.
You spent the last 20 yearsdoing probably different stuff
(34:47):
to me from what I've read aboutyou.
But this is my version of fun.
Like I'm exploring, I'm curiousand I think when life is
allowed to be fun, human beingslike to connect, but also
there's an abundance present,which means also you could
probably make a ton of money outof it.
(35:10):
But that's not a value that Inecessarily pass on to my kids,
but I will follow theircuriosity yeah and if you can
keep like curiosity alive in ahuman being and not and not kick
that out of them, they'relikely to follow their own
intelligence towards what it isis their groove, which sets them
(35:30):
up like if they're in theirarea of speciality.
Whatever that is, howeverquirky that might seem, they're
likely to excel.
So so for me, I I have a verygood brain.
I could have become far moreacademic than I have done, for
example, but what I got reallycurious about was the human body
and nervous systems andemotions and people and how they
(35:54):
connect and what.
Where do I shut down and wheredo I shut other people down and
how does this thing whole work?
You know, I got curious aboutthat and I haven't stopped being
curious about that.
Maybe that was there right froma young age and maybe it's
informed from there being lessemotional literacy than I needed
as a kid, and maybe maybe therewas also as a kid my, my
(36:20):
parents definitely my motherparticularly was always like
slightly thinking outside of thebox.
It was a beautiful, beautifulvalue.
She gave me to sort of slightlyquestion what the norm was and
whether or not I agreed with it.
It led me on some goodadventures, I guess, and some
dead ends as well.
Josh Porthouse (36:40):
I bet I bet it inspired a lot of your routines
and expression and opportunitiesas well, though, yeah, yeah, it
definitely took me towardsmusic, which has brought me
great joy I bet you I mean youmade it out of it yeah, I did, I
did and and uh.
Chloe De Sousa (37:02):
So I think you know fun, honesty, curiosity.
But the older I've got, themore radically honest I've
become, because, going back tothat point of like when we sit
on stuff, we've got to let it goat some point.
But it's not good for oursystem to not brush our teeth
after the VLT sandwich for toolong.
(37:22):
I've got more radically honest,which is also why I can feel
very comfortable.
The reason why this is fun forme is because I'm not scared of
my own honesty.
I'm not scared of what I mightdiscover in you.
I'm not scared of what I mightdiscover in me and those hard
truths, perhaps, or the placeswe were taught not to look
inside of ourselves.
What if they hold gold?
Ad (37:47):
All right, folks, sit tight and we'll be right back on
Transacting Value.
Josh Porthouse (37:51):
What happens when your dream job turns into a
waking nightmare?
In this gripping episode ofTransacting Value, dr Saloni
Sarra, once a senior HIVspecialist and PhD in medicine,
unravels how bullying,gaslighting and even stalking
from colleagues shattered heridentity, ignited PTSD and
(38:12):
almost stole her will to live.
But here's the shocker Afterfleeing countries and hiding in
shops to escape her stalker, shereclaimed her power, rewired
her trauma through EMDR therapyand now helps others do the same
.
Today, dr Seurat is a publishedauthor, trauma-informed coach
and is helping others reclaimself-worth and rewrite their
(38:33):
stories, one empowered belief ata time.
This episode is more thanrecovery.
It's resurrection.
Chloe De Sousa (38:41):
I'm not scared of what I might discover in me
and those hard truths, perhaps,or the places we were taught not
to look inside of ourselves.
What if they hold gold?
Josh Porthouse (38:54):
yeah, it's a fun thought yeah, absolutely a lot
of that stuff too, though youknow, I'm not entirely convinced
everything I encountered as akid, or in my head at least, is
traumatic, and I'm not entirelyconvinced that everything I've
put my son through inadvertently, unwittingly, or actually will
(39:16):
be traumatic, because it wasn'tuntil, I mean, I'm 37 now and I
was probably 35 when I startedthinking what did I go through,
what did I encounter?
It didn't even register to mebefore then.
I didn't care.
I started thinking what did Igo through, what did I encounter
?
It didn't even register to mebefore then.
I didn't care, I didn't need tocare.
(39:36):
And so I think, throughout mostof that, it's also in our power
to identify what is traumaticand what isn't or was and wasn't
, or will be and won't be, whatis traumatic and what isn't or
was and wasn't, or will be andwon't be.
But you know, there's a, I think, interesting sort of paradigm
(39:59):
there.
You know, it's like a.
It's a common reference point,or it's a reference point right,
where for us to have aconversation we have to have a
topic in common, otherwise we'regoing nowhere.
It's either just small talk,and even then we're talking
about the weather, or donuts orStarbucks or whatever.
Right, but, but internally,individually, to get to know
(40:25):
ourselves, we still have to havea focal point, and so to be
able to latch onto anything inthe past, I think there had to
have been some degree of traumaor event horizon or conflict.
Otherwise it wouldn't haveregistered as important for me
to look back on right.
It wouldn't stand out enough.
So I don't know if thinkingthat everything was a trauma is
always a bad thing, because it'sjust a bookmark and the only
(40:48):
way I think to that referencepoint, the only way we can
identify where we want to go orwhere we need to go, is if we
first identify where we are.
Even Google Maps does that, andso it can't be that wrong.
You know, if AI is telling usto do it, I guess we're on the
(41:09):
right track.
As you're thinking through alot of those experiences, though
the honesty, you know, one ofthe things that you didn't say,
that I was expecting you to say,was authenticity and maybe even
integrity or some degree ofjust wholeness.
Yeah, and you didn't, and so Iguess maybe my second to last
(41:31):
question here for the sake oftime.
Why not?
Why don't those things registeras highly, do you think?
Chloe De Sousa (41:40):
I think, because I make them an assumption.
Josh Porthouse (41:46):
Oh, okay, all right.
Chloe De Sousa (41:49):
You know how sometimes we can overlook what
we are or even what we're goodat.
Like we just assume yeah, likethat has to be, integrity has to
be.
Authenticity has to be.
Integrity has to be,authenticity has to be.
I thought I felt quite hard toto hang on to myself at times
(42:10):
like my.
My job can be quite edgy attimes, you know just to stand up
and talk about some of thethings that I talk about, but
authenticity, just, I can't beanybody other than who I am, and
that changes over time.
Josh Porthouse (42:24):
That's true, so it is just sort of implied.
Chloe De Sousa (42:31):
Yeah, I love what you said about.
About like the trauma thing,because recently I've been
thinking quite a lot aboutnegative bias.
So the brain automaticallyheads towards the negative
because it's a primal responseto try and keep you safe in the
future.
Like, why did I get eaten bythe tiger?
Well, because I was outside thecave, so next time let's stay
inside the cave.
But also like, like what if wecould consciously choose also to
(42:56):
place our attention on some ofthe really good events?
Because one of the reasons whypsychotherapy is great but also
limiting is it can put us in thevictim role as opposed to like
choosing like choosing to placeour attention on oh my, oh my
gosh.
This happened, this was reallyamazing and therefore it marked
(43:17):
me in such a positive way yeah,well, that's the beauty of dance
, right?
Josh Porthouse (43:22):
you can play the victim or the heroine, it
really doesn't make a differenceyeah it's, it's all in how you
express it in the moment, Iguess and noticing what happens,
which role you take.
Chloe De Sousa (43:33):
Yeah, what's?
What's the outcome?
Well, sure, yeah, sometimes youlead, sometimes you follow, I
guess yeah, absolutely, and whatfeels best, and can I allow
myself to feel that?
Josh Porthouse (43:46):
yeah, permission takes time, but I guess that
leads me to my next question.
You, I guess, come up with thisidea and you've called it feral
grace, tell us about it, why.
What's?
What's the I'm guessing herethe relevance, but where'd that
come from?
Chloe De Sousa (44:05):
I do stand for the wild.
I do stand for the slightlyuncensored, for the edgy, for
the things that we wanted to say, that we never said, for the
risk, for the permission forpeople to be more of themselves
that might have got got squashed, for the feral part of
ourselves to let that be in ineach and every individual or
(44:29):
however it occurs to them.
Um, and the grace is becausealso the other side of it, like
wild, isn't all over everybodyelse.
Wild can be a tiny littlemotion or a subtle movement,
that and that, and, and my heartgot broken and there was a
grace in that, but it released alot of wild.
So here's feral grace.
(44:51):
You know, she, she kind of gotborn from this, this heartbreak
moment, and she's produced suchgoodness.
I'm so proud of her.
Josh Porthouse (45:00):
That's cool.
So for anybody then that wantsto get in touch and follow along
, or, you know, your your danceprogram, or maybe become a
client or learn more, where dothey?
Chloe De Sousa (45:16):
go.
My website's the best place tofind me and you can write to me
and I'll always answer.
I love chatting, so,wwwferalgracenet, there we go.
Get in touch.
Josh Porthouse (45:29):
Easy, Easy.
I have one last question foryou before we close this out,
because you briefly mentioned itearlier, or at least alluded to
it.
You know, at times working withother people and I think even
to a certain degree on you know,like podcasting or any sort of
social endeavor or industry, Ithink more difficult line in the
(45:54):
sand is not losing sight ofyourself in the process or not
relying on.
You know subconsciouslyassimilating pieces of other
people, but staying true toyourself there, and so I'm
curious, as you've gone throughthis over the last few decades
now, how have all yourexperiences actually instigated
your own self-worth?
Chloe De Sousa (46:15):
a main one that instigated my own self-worth was
was realizing that if I didn'tbelieve in me, then then it
wasn't going to happen, that therepair I needed wasn't going to
happen.
It was a hard moment.
It wasn't.
It wasn't a defense moment, itwas just like a deep inner
knowing of what I knew could bepossible from this moment, and
(46:36):
if I wasn't going to believe inme, then nobody else would see
that that was possible.
Josh Porthouse (46:41):
Good for you.
Yeah else would see that thatwas possible.
Good for you, yeah, wow, uh.
Well, I appreciate you bringingit up, and maybe reconciling is
not quite the right word, but Idon't know a more appropriate
one.
So, of all the experiences youhave had, I'm sorry they
happened to you, but I'm gladthey happened, period, and I'm
(47:03):
glad you were able to come upwith a way to use them to your
advantage, because, you know,selfishly, on one hand it made
this conversation super cool,but on the other hand, you know
there's a lot of people thatyou're working with or have
worked with that are benefitingas a result of all of the
experiences you've had andlearning to grow through that.
(47:24):
So letting yourself feel thosethings and allowing yourself to
learn from them, I think, is asuper, maybe underrated
superpower.
So congratulations.
Chloe De Sousa (47:36):
Thank you so much.
Josh Porthouse (47:38):
Absolutely.
Yeah Well, you know it's.
It's the least I can do foranybody who's new to the show.
You can obviously learn moreabout this conversation by going
to our websitetransactingvaluepodcastcom and
also, depending on the playeryou're streaming this
conversation on, you can clicksee more or maybe show more, and
(48:00):
in the drop down descriptionfor this conversation you'll see
a link to get to chloe'swebsite, feralgracenet, and get
there.
Even while you're listening orwatching to this conversation,
you can check her out as well.
But I appreciate your time,chloe, your insight and
obviously staying up a littlebit later to have this kind of a
conversation.
So thank you for your time andyour insight and your experience
(48:25):
.
Chloe De Sousa (48:25):
Thank you so much, josh, great to meet you.
Josh Porthouse (48:28):
Absolutely you as well, and to everybody else
who tuned in to watch thisconversation or listen to it,
depending on where you are andhow you're doing it.
Thank you, guys, for listeningto the show, staying with us,
and make sure when you're on ourhomepage, you click on the
leave a voicemail button.
You send us some feedback, youlet us know what you think of
the show, the questions, theconversation style, my beard,
(48:48):
anything, I don't care, I'm anopen book.
But also let Chloe know whatyou think of the conversation
and some of these talking pointsand some of her insights,
because that's how we learnright Feedback makes the world
go round.
So thank you, guys, and untilnext time.
That was Transacting Value.
Thank you to our show partnersand folks.
Thank you for tuning in andappreciating our value as we all
(49:11):
grow through life together.
To check out our otherconversations or even to
contribute through feedbackfollows, time, money or talent
and to let us know what youthink of the show.
Please leave a review on ourwebsite,
transactingvaluepodcastcom.
We also stream new episodesevery Monday at 9 am Eastern
Standard Time through all ofyour favorite podcasting
platforms like Spotify, iheartand TuneIn.
(49:33):
You can now hear TransactingValue on Wreaths Across America,
radio Head, towreathsacrossalueorg for
(49:59):
yourselves and your posterity.
We will continue instigatingself-worth and we'll meet you
there Until next time.
That was Transacting Value.
The views expressed in this podcast are
solely those of the podcast hostand guest and do not
necessarily represent those ofour distribution partners,
supporting businessrelationships or supported
audience.
Welcome to Transacting Value,where we talk about practical
(00:22):
applications for instigatingself-worth when dealing with
each other and even withinourselves, where we foster a
podcast listening experiencethat lets you hear the power of
a value system for managingburnout, establishing boundaries
, fostering community andfinding identity.
My name is Josh Porthouse, I'myour host and we are redefining
sovereignty of character.
(00:42):
This is why values still holdvalue.
This is Transacting Value.
Chloe De Sousa (00:49):
Chaos is the release that lots of us are
looking for.
I'm not a drinker and I'm notdown on drinkers, but I don't
need to drink when I've gotchaos in my life that I can
dance through.
Josh Porthouse (01:01):
But I own Transacting Value.
What happens when we deploy,when we leave for long periods
of time?
More specifically, what happensto our kids and then as kids?
How might we interpret thoseinteractions?
What does it do for ourself-expression and, ultimately,
what can it do for ourself-worth?
Today we're talking to dancemovement psychotherapist and
(01:23):
relationship and intimacy coach,Chloe D'Souza.
All about what it looked likefor her and some suggestions,
recommendations and insightsthat she's gotten along the way
to fix everything.
I'm Josh Porthouse, I'm yourhost and from SDYT Media.
This is Transacting Value,Chloe, how are you doing?
Chloe De Sousa (01:44):
I'm doing good.
It's nighttime, my time, butthat's okay.
The house is cool.
Josh Porthouse (01:50):
Yeah, I mean so you've had wait, you're what
five hours ahead of East?
Coast.
Yeah, yeah, okay, all right,well, so let's just start there,
then I think it may eventuallyhave come out, probably with
your accent or something, foranybody listening to the audio
version of this, but let's justtake the first couple of minutes
then and set the stage, becausethere's a lot of stuff in that
(02:11):
intro to unpack, especially in45 minutes.
So maybe for the sake ofefficiency and a little bit of
resonance.
Who are you?
Where are you from?
What sort of things are shapingyour perspective on life as it
applies to all of these?
Chloe De Sousa (02:24):
things'm.
Like you said, I'm arelationship and intimacy coach.
My background really studiesthe body for a very long time.
So there you had my dancemovement psychotherapy in there.
I'm also an ecstatic danceteacher five rhythms.
So I've looked for a long timeon what our bodies hold.
So I've looked for a long timeon what our bodies hold, the
(02:44):
effect that that has on us andalso what we can release along
the way.
So the further I've got into mycareer, the more I go into
nervous system work.
So, if you like, any event thattakes place you know, good or
bad, whatever you want towhatever.
These days I would just sayemotional, Unless you've had a
(03:05):
great amount of time within thatmoment to realize what it means
to you and and what what you'retaking away from it.
Most of us have got incompleteevents in us, um, and I for
myself, the more I've traveledthrough life, I try and catch up
on the events as they go along,but they leave a mark on us.
So I'm here to help people with, for example, you know, you
(03:27):
know when you'd like to behaveone way, but you know you
pattern in a certain way and itkeeps coming out.
Well, I'm here to help peoplelook at what is under the
pattern, Because if you releasethat little bit, you start to
behave a little bit differentlyand your world could open up,
probably to a bit more lovethat's interesting.
Josh Porthouse (03:47):
So what do you mean like anxious behaviors?
Chloe De Sousa (03:50):
anxious behavior , defensive behaviors, anger,
addiction yeah everything reallyfrom um attachments obviously
in there that's kind of quite abuzzword at the moment, but you
know when or even contradictorybehavior.
For example, a client of minecame to me.
I really want to meet someoneyou know and I'm like, oh great,
(04:12):
fantastic, I can help you withthat.
And then you find in her systemthat she's.
She suffered great loss withinthe first few months of her
marriage, which ended with theloss of her husband, so her
heart carries a contradiction.
I really want to meet someone.
I'm terrified of meeting someonein case I lose them, so so
(04:32):
there's two events of there's athere's a conflict of desires,
but once you realize you havethe capacity to hold your heart
through something and say, hey,I, I understand where we need to
risk loss, but we're going todo it anyway because we want
love more than that, we want tolive again, even though we lost
(04:53):
him oh, I like that, and youdiscovered this through dance uh
, primarily through my ownhistory was I found dance floors
at about the age of 17, 18.
I found them more consciously,if you like, if that is such a
thing at about 21.
And I started to digest thefreeze in my body from my own
(05:15):
childhood.
So I had very damagedattachment.
As a kid I didn't really knowwhich way was up.
There wasn't a lot of emotionalliteracy going on for me and
when I started to move Irealized that there was pain,
there was grief, there was,there was bliss, that there was
anger, and when I let my bodyexpress it on a dance floor I
(05:35):
wasn't hurting anyone, so I feltfree to really move.
When you get that kind ofalignment happening, there's a
massive sense of relief in ahuman being system and and
that's when you start to digestevents without needing a
cerebral cortical narrative evenyou're just just letting stuff
move.
I went on to study a degreewhich was cultural anthropology
(05:58):
and looking at, like medicinesystems around the world, what
was working, and spent a lot ofthat decade traveling and
immersing myself in stuff andcame to hold five rhythms dance
floors to work the magic withother people like provide
environments that people couldwork their stuff out.
Then I got deeply into coachingbecause of a, a massive
(06:20):
heartbreak in my adult life.
So you, you've got childhoodtrauma, you've got adult trauma.
That holds a different tone andI don't know if you've heard of
the hindsight window.
You might be interested in that, josh.
Let's say I haven't.
Josh Porthouse (06:34):
What is that?
Chloe De Sousa (06:35):
So for me it's something you can't really fake.
So my life went into.
It just kind of imploded.
One day my marriage broke down.
It was right, right, you know,a surprise to me, and it was
like nothing was left, and I I'mthe sort of person that tends
to map things because I want tooffer them to other people.
(06:58):
So I gathered a load of toolsto to help mend my own
heartbreak, and an embodimentwas a lens that really helped me
out.
It was like, okay, so thishurts.
What's the communication?
And so the hindsight window isthe amount of time it takes from
an event that at the time seemsshocking or hard, to the point
(07:21):
that you can get to where,naturally and organically in
your life, you realize theblessing or the gift that that
event gave you.
Now you have to choose somemeaning on it.
So for me, I learned how toheal my heart.
When the event first happened Iwasn't like celebratory, I
wasn't thinking great.
I learned how to heal a brokenheart.
Josh Porthouse (07:44):
Yeah, not now.
Chloe De Sousa (07:45):
You know, but through hard work and wanting to
head towards repair, there wasa moment where I saw the grace
of what had happened to me.
I saw almost the amazingopportunity that I had in this
lifetime to experience how tomend my own heart.
It felt incredible and it was aquiet moment of kind of peace
(08:11):
and relief and a moment of kindof circle.
That was a lot, and so whenthose moments happen and
hopefully I provide thosemoments for people now you can't
rush a moment like that, butit's amazing because, instead of
(08:31):
being in the victim role, whichis an important part of the
heroine or hero's journey youthen have a reason why that you
found for yourself or a humanitythat that like, oh okay, this
has happened to a lot of people,including myself, and and now,
what do I want to do with that?
Josh Porthouse (08:53):
yeah, but identifying that.
I guess there's three things Iwanted to bring up based on what
you just said.
Identifying that from, I meanessentially like a silent actor
in dance, I mean you're notvocalizing anything, unless
actually I can't really think ofany dancers that are also
(09:15):
vocalizing at the same time.
So, as a silent actor, how youprocess through that or identify
those kinds of triggers.
But then, as a ofself-expression, I think dance
pretty much holds its own nowover the last couple thousand
years.
But to be able to do thatintentionally you know what I
mean it's like a speaker up on astage or in front of a crowd or
(09:38):
with a microphone you knowstand-up comedy or in any degree
of seriousness I think is ableto convey that kind of rhetoric
and assess it based off anaudience's response and then do
something with it.
Right, it's a three piece kindof thing, but as a dancer you're
not focused on the audience.
You're.
You're present in the moment,but the audience may as well
(10:00):
bleed away, right?
So my first question is how wasdance then a way for you to
identify or become aware of anyof those triggers?
And then, secondly, how did youuse it to grow and respond to
whatever it was doing for youfirst of all, it was a
performance dance, which wasamazing.
Chloe De Sousa (10:21):
So it was more of a meditative dance.
So it was more like there'sfive different rhythms and
they're going to bring outdifferent pieces of you, if you
like.
So there's flowing, staccato,chaos, lyrical and stillness.
So you put your body in anenvironment where there is flow
and and you start to receiveyourself, your, your attention
(10:42):
goes inside.
You put yourself in anenvironment of staccato, much
more angular.
You've got the out-breath.
Your attention comes outside,to the world.
Even that's catalytic enough tobring up something like how
scared some people are to assertthemselves.
You start to flex that muscle.
You're going to uncover why youdon't want to flex that muscle
(11:04):
of of like being seen,expressing, interacting with
another.
Why am I scared of that?
It's going to come up.
Why am I scared to go inside?
What's what's there?
Chaos is the release that lotsof us are looking for.
You know, I'm not.
I'm not a drinker and I'm notdown on drinkers, but like I
don't need to drink when I'vegot chaos in my life that I can
(11:26):
dance through like it's like,yeah, it's, it's just like you
let your body move any which wayit wants to move and there's
rhythms and music.
I would play to it to providethat environment for the dancers
.
The recall is like after you'veemptied, you know for for
anybody, you know, like the the2, 3 am slot, if everyone's
(11:48):
anyone stayed up that late andyou get into this zone.
Lyrical is a bit like that zoneand stillness they call it the
healing rhythm because whenyou're that empty, your body is
an organism, if you like justwants to bring itself into
balance.
Your body as an organism, ifyou like, just wants to bring
itself into balance.
So it wasn't performance dance.
(12:08):
So you're listening all thetime to the congruence between
your body movement and whatyou're feeling.
You're looking for thatcongruence and when you find it,
you know it, because your mindstills which?
Is an amazing experience.
Josh Porthouse (12:23):
Yeah, yeah, I bet it is Now.
You mentioned something thatbefore we recorded I think is
interesting to that point.
You said it helped you identifyor maybe align with your inner
child.
Is that because it's just moreplayful and self-expressive and
(12:43):
not as controlled of anenvironment?
Or not as self-controlled maybeof an environment?
Or how did one bring about theother?
Chloe De Sousa (12:52):
I think I've always been a little bit wild
and I wanted an environmentwhere I was allowed to be that,
and dance schools held thatspace for me Also.
I was very sad as a child.
Um, I didn't live with my momfrom about the age of six and
(13:13):
and there.
So there was kind of continualgrief for me in my childhood.
So strangely and this is like Iwant to send you playlists now,
josh but strangely likewhenever I was dancing and I
moved my hands, I ended upcrying like it wasn't like
literally my grief was in myhands, but maybe my hands could
tell the story of my grief.
(13:33):
maybe it was a bit of aninteraction between the two.
Like you said, we don't existin a vacuum, um, and then one
day it was gone, like I moved myhands and I didn't cry, it was
complete, we were done, we movedon.
Ad (13:53):
Alrighty, folks sit tight and we'll be right back on
Transacting Value.
Josh Porthouse (13:58):
Tampa Bay Sun-kissed beaches, a thriving
art scene and a community thatembraces diversity.
It's more than just a place tolive.
It's a lifestyle.
At Porthouse Tampa Bay Realtor,I understand that finding the
right home is about more thanjust square footage.
It's about finding the rightcharacter, culture and community
.
It's about finding a placewhere you can truly belong
(14:21):
Alongside a network ofexperienced marketers, inspect
realtors and lenders.
We're not just experts in thetampa bay market.
We are your neighbors and we'repassionate about helping you
find the perfect place to callhome.
Follow along on youtube,facebook and linkedin at
porthouse tampa bay realtor.
Porthouse tampa bay realtorwhere values start in the home
(14:45):
and then one day it was gone.
Chloe De Sousa (14:47):
Like I moved my hands and I didn't cry, it was
complete, we were done, we movedon you know there's.
Josh Porthouse (14:57):
There's a lot of ways people learn and I'm not
necessarily trying to preach tothe choir here, but I'm going
somewhere with this and so tosay that you know, the more
senses you can inundate somebodywith to a particular point or
construct, the more likelythey're going to not only
remember it but be able to relyon it, interpret it, analyze it,
(15:17):
do something constructive or, Iguess, destructive with it.
Right, and it sounds a lot likewhat you're describing.
Isn't just maybe that griefcycle where you sort of dwell
and stay in the past and thinkabout it, but then you can also
feel it and drive some sort of Idon't know adrenal response or
or some sort of like what's theword?
(15:39):
Neurotypical response?
to whatever those emotions areand and you know lymphatically
force your body to process themout, is there any relevance to
that kind of physiology orphysiological response?
Is that what keeps you around,working with dance and trauma
(16:00):
and relationship?
Chloe De Sousa (16:01):
have you read Bessel van der Kolk?
the body keeps the score no,okay he was amazing he first
started work with I'd reallyrecommend it to anyone who wants
to heal themselves and includeall of themselves in their
healing so he started workingwith veterans first of all that
were were suffering from whatwas undiagnosed back there as
(16:23):
post-traumatic stress.
Post-traumatic stress wasn't inthe medical big books in those
days.
So you had veterans sufferingfrom flashbacks and all sorts of
things going on and theyweren't happening.
But for the veterans it washappening.
Ptsd is such a thing.
So he started to look at wherethe nervous system was storing
(16:47):
these events and a sense thatthese events needed to end at
the.
Where the nervous system wasstoring these events and and a
sense that these events neededto end for the person, but also
that somehow the body wasstoring it.
The body kept the score onthose events.
So he started to look at like,what did the body need to do in
order to, to make peace to thebody, to know that it was no
longer taking place, but also,but also, the digestion was in
(17:10):
feeling it so often with myclients, to use a less catalytic
example um, what, what?
You know the, the verycolloquial phrase, what we
resist persists, right, if, ifI'm, if I'm sitting on something
like my sexuality or my love ormy hate.
(17:30):
It sits there taking up a lotof space.
Actually, when I let myselffully, fully express my hate or
my love or my sexuality, it justmoves where it needs to move.
I'm no longer scared of it andI'm less likely to suffer from
depression because I'm notscared of what I'm feeling.
It gets expressed, it moves onlike I don't hold on to it
(17:53):
because that moment's done andI'm I'm on to the next thing but
, we, we tend and I see this alot we, we haven't been taught
that the capacity of our humanheart is so immense.
You give the human heart theright conditions and it knows
what to do.
And so to provide spaces withpeople.
And people say to me oh, I feellike I can say anything to you,
(18:16):
but you kind of can, becauseI'm not going to shame you.
Whatever you're feeling iswelcome, and all sorts of
scenarios have been described tome.
When you, when you get in anenvironment where you give a
human being that level oflistening, they work things out
very quickly.
Because I'm not, because it'snot censored for them themselves
(18:39):
, inside of themselves and withme as a human being, to find out
what the logic is in, in what'sgoing on for them because then
it doesn't have to be logical.
Yeah, exactly, exactly so.
And there's always that thatyou know.
The mind, body, intelligencehas such a great logic, but you
have to listen from a slightlydifferent place.
(18:59):
So maybe a slightly catalyticthing going on here.
I'm interested.
What went on for you there?
You kind of leant back and tooka breath in.
Josh Porthouse (19:09):
Yeah.
Chloe De Sousa (19:12):
So one woman that I worked with, she was
having affairs okay, withmarried men, so that's a kind of
taboo thing to do.
I don't condone that behavior.
But if it's a client, I'm notjudging that behavior either.
But we want to get underneathwhat's going on for that human
being and in the end we got it.
(19:33):
It was like she thinks that ifshe's in a relationship with a
man because of her childhood,they're going to take over,
direct and dominate her life.
So what's the smart thing to do?
Have a relationship with a manthat can't move in, can't
dominate your life, because he'salready got a wife and so she
(19:53):
keeps herself safe.
So there's a logic in herbehavior.
But once you realize thatthat's your logic, you can start
to think well, I'm perfectlyable not to let someone take
charge of my life and dominateme and move in if I don't want
them to.
She stops having affairs withmarried men just like that just
(20:13):
like that.
But you've got to feel itthrough, but you've got to
realize what there was a keythere.
She made, she made what shewasn't letting herself feel
conscious, and then, oh well, Ican stop doing that then yeah,
well, that's the thing.
Josh Porthouse (20:34):
Right like the the point that you brought up, I
got to thinking the longer youhold on to anything,
intentionally or otherwise, it'salways going to cause a problem
.
I couldn't think of anysituation where the longer you
hold on to something, the betterit gets.
Never that's a nice thought.
Unconsciously, for example, youeat a sandwich.
(20:57):
You look like somebody thateats a sandwich every now and
again enjoyed a good BLT, orwhatever.
Chloe De Sousa (21:02):
And so when you eat a, sandwich.
Josh Porthouse (21:04):
If you don't brush your teeth, the longer you
hold on to the bacon orwhatever in your mouth, it
sticks to your teeth, doesdamage, and that's without you
even trying.
Right Then the amount of, Idon't know, let's call it force
or pressure, maybe in your gripthat you could exert on anything
that you would need to, as yourmuscles fatigue to hold on to
(21:26):
something longer.
Eventually you're going to dropit and it's going to degrade
naturally, because you can'thold it forever.
Whatever it is Right.
You mentioned a point, theability.
I forget how you said it now,but the ability of the human
heart, the extent that it can,you know, feel or accommodate
(21:47):
loosely, to the point that youmade there, I guess I've always
thought about it and this iswhat clicked in my head when you
, you said something catalyticUm, well, I hadn't even thought
about it.
Actually, I guess I'd alwaysfelt that it's always easier to
feel the pessimistic, negative,heartfelt energies, right,
(22:08):
depression, anxiety, grief,anxiety, grief, sadness,
loneliness, futility, whatever,okay, and that's when, at least
for me, I'm more conscious ofwhatever emotional state I'm in.
But I don't know that I'veexperienced, and if I have, I
don't know that I've actuallyregistered what was happening,
that that everything, at leastas I understand science, is an
(22:32):
equal and opposite effect.
And so for the amount of depththat negative energies can have,
then the amount of liftpositive energies could have,
right, the equal and oppositepull or push, I guess of that
extreme.
And yeah, so I never thoughtabout it until you brought that
up, that you can't.
(22:52):
I call these types of people,or even myself, in these types
of moments, a time traveler,because obviously I can only go
as fast as the earth, right?
This isn't meant to be anactual science fiction reference
, but as an analogy, as ametaphor Physically I'm present,
but mentally I'm stuck in thepast and I can't figure out how
(23:14):
to get back, or I'm sopreoccupied with the future that
I have no idea what's happeningin the present, because
mentally I'm not here, eventhough physically.
That's where I'm aging right,and I guess it never really
occurred to me that eventuallyyou just have to let go and move
on and realize or reconcilethat it's not in your control.
(23:34):
In fact, maybe the only thingthat's in your control is to
control what you're feeling anddevelop that.
And so, anyway, all of that iswhat was going through my head
when you were describing thosethings, describing those things
that you know, whatever thetrauma is, whatever the
experience was, I spent themajority of a 15 year career in
(23:54):
in the U S military, uh, awayfrom my son, and so he's 10 now,
but I've really only beenaround him for maybe two years,
two and a half years physically,but I think probably close to
all 10 of those years, maybenine and a half years, I don't
know that I've really beenmentally present when I've been
physically around either.
So, yeah, there's a lot ofthose sort of dichotomies that
(24:17):
you brought up, where,identifying that kind of unity,
you sort of have to identify theprism that you're existing in
from a few different angles.
So what is it do you thinkabout?
Think about, let's say,self-expression in general,
because you don't dance like youused to, right, you focus more
on coaching, not physicaltherapy.
Chloe De Sousa (24:39):
I'm more of a coach these days, although I'm
going to launch a dance seriesthis year because I can't stay
away okay all right there it isyeah.
No, you're right yeah yeah sookay, so.
Josh Porthouse (24:50):
So what is it about self-expression that
worked, that now you're able torecreate for you, since you're
not dancing as much?
Chloe De Sousa (24:59):
yeah.
So what I'd like to go to is isis a lot of what you said.
So, first of all, like I lovewhat you said about the depth of
people, so point one, pleasurecapping is a concept that I love
to talk about because, just aswe resist the negative emotions,
even though we're moreconscious of them when they turn
(25:21):
up, you're right, when I'm,when I'm unhappy, it's easier to
spot.
I'm unhappy, when I'm happy,I'm just happy.
But I think there is somethingin the depths of things that,
having got, having got intopoints of my life where I was
very, very like rock bottom,rock bottom, that there is equal
(25:42):
a rise, that I can go, I can, Ican get very, very blissful as
well when the ingredients areright in my life, but I let
myself have a wide spectrum ofemotion or a depth and a height,
and so some of the work is isto look at culturally, where
we've been conditioned not tolet ourself have joy, that we
(26:05):
have guilt around being joyfulor we have.
We have guilt about justspending time with our kids
because we're meant to beworking, because we've been
taught that's more importantthan our kids, which I would um
contest every time, most of thetime you know we've got to bring
money in but also like, like,how, how to let ourselves go,
(26:26):
how to let our minds go, so thatwhen they pick a daisy and hand
it to us, that our heartexplodes, that we crack.
Because, there's nothing moreinnocent than a child.
I do more coaching these daysbecause I like to do the school
run as soon as I had kids.
(26:46):
It was harder to hold big dancefloor spaces because the money
I earned there just didn't seemworth what I could do if I was
reading a bedtime story.
But that's a personal, that'smy value system and you can see
that that's going to be high onmy value system because mom left
when I was six, so being a momis really important to me.
Ad (27:09):
Alrighty, folks sit tight and we'll be right back on
Transacting Value.
Chloe De Sousa (27:11):
So being a mom is really important to me and
you can see that that's going tobe high on my value system,
because mom left when I was six,so being a mom is really
(27:34):
important to me.
Josh Porthouse (27:36):
Well, it could have gone the other way.
Yeah.
You know, like that could havejust been what you accepted as
natural and not, I don't know,atypically nurtural, and just
said I'm not going to have kidsbecause how would I know if I
wouldn't do the same thing, orany of those types of responses,
right?
So yeah, obviously you madepeace with that, though.
Chloe De Sousa (28:00):
Yeah, yeah, I have.
You only need to look at yourparents' upbringing and their
parents' upbringing and theirparents' upbringing to realize
that the pain that was gettinghanded down.
Then you think, well, what do Iwant to do?
But it does involve questioning.
I haven't parented the way myparents parented me.
(28:22):
It's not because they did itwrong, it's.
It's just that I've questionedwhat attunement is.
I've watched my child's faceand and and when you, when you
can see an emotion come acrossit and you work out whether or
not they need scooping up orwhether they need resilience or
whatever it is that thatpersonality in that moment needs
from you, you start to listenfrom a different place.
(28:43):
You're not thinking about whatto do.
You're immediately your body'seither moving towards or away
from.
Most of the time with kids istowards, but some kids need a
lot of space yeah, it's true.
Josh Porthouse (28:56):
So some parents sometimes your diverse kids
often need a lot of space yeah,well, that's something
interesting too and maybe anentirely different conversation
just because of the amount ofbreadth they could cover.
But I think it's a matter ofmaybe interpreting those types
of expressions.
You know we're talking about,not anything specific.
(29:17):
Let's say autism.
That's the most popular, Ithink, topic right now in terms
of this neurodiverse category,right?
So I think it comes down tothis weird sort of dichotomy
where in your head you're,you're totally right on the mark
, processing the most importantthing in the world at that point
(29:39):
in time, right, and toeverybody else watching it or
hearing it happen, dude, whatare you doing?
No, that has nothing to do withwhat's happening right now.
Totally, totally off the mark,right, totally contrary to that
position.
And so it's such a weird thingwhere it's almost like a hyper
attunement in the present forone person and then a total
(30:02):
detachment and disassociationfrom everybody else's perception
when you get to these like,let's say, neurodiverse
expressions or expressions of anemotion, right, and then I
think, just because naturally westart to want to be in a
community or some sort oflike-minded safety net, like,
(30:23):
I'm not blind, I can see thatyou're laughing at me, not with
me, those types of moments, ofcourse I'm going to get whatever
emotions, my default frustratedor angry or you know whatever
and then, however it manifests,if I'm unfamiliar with how to
deal with it, and maybe I lashout or get physical or whatever
you know and and, and maybethat's the tantrum in the
department store that westereotypically hear about, you
(30:45):
know, and I think there's a lotin those experiences that we can
draw from, because there's alittle bit of every normal
whatever that is type ofhumanity in those types of
expressions and outbursts andmoments.
Some of us just have moreawareness and self-control than
others, but I don't think it'sreally that far off the mark for
(31:08):
any one of us and it's sort ofreined in or or or qualified
through the lens of parenting.
Uh, I think that.
I think that's complicated.
Um, let me say this I thinkit's complex because there's so
many different ways that youcould respond, but I think it's
(31:28):
very simple in in that once webuild some sort of
self-awareness or empathy, it'llfix itself one way or another,
it'll take care of itself, sortof like you said, the degree of
awareness you developed dancing,um, and then some sort of
forgiveness or grace foryourself now, then directly
(31:49):
translates into empathy andgives other people permission or
space or capability, you know,insight into how to do it for
themselves, and I mean, that'sthe.
That's the goal of parenting, inmy opinion.
You know, I have no idea howrich I'm going to be or how rich
he's going to be or whateveryou know, or whatever the metric
is.
If he's going to be good, bad,go to jail, be an upright
(32:11):
citizen.
I don't know, I'm not a fortuneteller, but at least in my head
, for my son, I look at it likeif he's able to contend with
himself and not ask me for helpeffectively, then I did good
enough.
That's all I really got to dealwith.
Yeah.
You know those types ofopportunities.
(32:31):
That's all I really got to dealwith.
Yeah, you know those types ofopportunities realizations,
maybe when you're raising yourkids or helping other people
learn to raise themselves.
I think those are almost alwaysrooted in some kind of a value
system, and so this is a segmentof the show called Developing
Character D-D-D-DevelopingCharacter kind of a value system
(32:51):
, and so this is a segment ofthe show called developing
character.
Developing character, and I'mcurious, specifically in your
case, about your value system.
And here's why we talked aboutthis a little bit off the air.
But I think, when it comes totransacting value, maybe as a
phrase that it's it's brokendown, like we talked about, into
(33:12):
these three pieces right, where, on one hand, it's internal and
it's cognition and behavior andhow we develop our own
awareness and introspection.
I think another piece is how wecommunicate that.
And then the third how weinterpret other people
communicating theirs and what wedo about it, how we interpret
other people communicatingtheirs and what we do about it.
(33:34):
And so, if we spread it outover time, a portion of this has
to be natural and a portion ofthis has to be nurtural.
So my first question and I'mgoing to ask you them both.
You can take it how you want.
My first question is what weresome of the values then that you
remember being raised around orbrought up on or hearing about
as a kid?
And then now, after your timeand experience and life and
(33:57):
growing, what then are some ofyour values now that you
actually stand on and try topass down and carry?
Chloe De Sousa (34:04):
can I start with a second question please?
I talk about my value systemquite a lot because I think it's
really important that everybodyknows what's in their value
system and it's different foreverybody.
So very close to the top of myvalue system list is fun, and I
(34:25):
think it's because I'm verycreative and when I'm having fun
I'm at my my most creative, butalso that's when my heart is
the most open also and alsoknowing what I find fun.
So this is fun for me.
I'm talking to someone I'venever met before on the other
side of the world.
We've you.
You spent the last 20 yearsdoing probably different stuff
(34:47):
to me from what I've read aboutyou.
But this is my version of fun.
Like I'm exploring, I'm curiousand I think when life is
allowed to be fun, human beingslike to connect, but also
there's an abundance present,which means also you could
probably make a ton of money outof it.
(35:10):
But that's not a value that Inecessarily pass on to my kids,
but I will follow theircuriosity yeah and if you can
keep like curiosity alive in ahuman being and not and not kick
that out of them, they'relikely to follow their own
intelligence towards what it isis their groove, which sets them
(35:30):
up like if they're in theirarea of speciality.
Whatever that is, howeverquirky that might seem, they're
likely to excel.
So so for me, I I have a verygood brain.
I could have become far moreacademic than I have done, for
example, but what I got reallycurious about was the human body
and nervous systems andemotions and people and how they
(35:54):
connect and what.
Where do I shut down and wheredo I shut other people down and
how does this thing whole work?
You know, I got curious aboutthat and I haven't stopped being
curious about that.
Maybe that was there right froma young age and maybe it's
informed from there being lessemotional literacy than I needed
as a kid, and maybe maybe therewas also as a kid my, my
(36:20):
parents definitely my motherparticularly was always like
slightly thinking outside of thebox.
It was a beautiful, beautifulvalue.
She gave me to sort of slightlyquestion what the norm was and
whether or not I agreed with it.
It led me on some goodadventures, I guess, and some
dead ends as well.
Josh Porthouse (36:40):
I bet I bet it inspired a lot of your routines
and expression and opportunitiesas well, though, yeah, yeah, it
definitely took me towardsmusic, which has brought me
great joy I bet you I mean youmade it out of it yeah, I did, I
did and and uh.
Chloe De Sousa (37:02):
So I think you know fun, honesty, curiosity.
But the older I've got, themore radically honest I've
become, because, going back tothat point of like when we sit
on stuff, we've got to let it goat some point.
But it's not good for oursystem to not brush our teeth
after the VLT sandwich for toolong.
(37:22):
I've got more radically honest,which is also why I can feel
very comfortable.
The reason why this is fun forme is because I'm not scared of
my own honesty.
I'm not scared of what I mightdiscover in you.
I'm not scared of what I mightdiscover in me and those hard
truths, perhaps, or the placeswe were taught not to look
inside of ourselves.
What if they hold gold?
Ad (37:47):
All right, folks, sit tight and we'll be right back on
Transacting Value.
Josh Porthouse (37:51):
What happens when your dream job turns into a
waking nightmare?
In this gripping episode ofTransacting Value, dr Saloni
Sarra, once a senior HIVspecialist and PhD in medicine,
unravels how bullying,gaslighting and even stalking
from colleagues shattered heridentity, ignited PTSD and
(38:12):
almost stole her will to live.
But here's the shocker Afterfleeing countries and hiding in
shops to escape her stalker, shereclaimed her power, rewired
her trauma through EMDR therapyand now helps others do the same
.
Today, dr Seurat is a publishedauthor, trauma-informed coach
and is helping others reclaimself-worth and rewrite their
(38:33):
stories, one empowered belief ata time.
This episode is more thanrecovery.
It's resurrection.
Chloe De Sousa (38:41):
I'm not scared of what I might discover in me
and those hard truths, perhaps,or the places we were taught not
to look inside of ourselves.
What if they hold gold?
Josh Porthouse (38:54):
yeah, it's a fun thought yeah, absolutely a lot
of that stuff too, though youknow, I'm not entirely convinced
everything I encountered as akid, or in my head at least, is
traumatic, and I'm not entirelyconvinced that everything I've
put my son through inadvertently, unwittingly, or actually will
(39:16):
be traumatic, because it wasn'tuntil, I mean, I'm 37 now and I
was probably 35 when I startedthinking what did I go through,
what did I encounter?
It didn't even register to mebefore then.
I didn't care.
I started thinking what did Igo through, what did I encounter
?
It didn't even register to mebefore then.
I didn't care, I didn't need tocare.
(39:36):
And so I think, throughout mostof that, it's also in our power
to identify what is traumaticand what isn't or was and wasn't
, or will be and won't be, whatis traumatic and what isn't or
was and wasn't, or will be andwon't be.
But you know, there's a, I think, interesting sort of paradigm
(39:59):
there.
You know, it's like a.
It's a common reference point,or it's a reference point right,
where for us to have aconversation we have to have a
topic in common, otherwise we'regoing nowhere.
It's either just small talk,and even then we're talking
about the weather, or donuts orStarbucks or whatever.
Right, but, but internally,individually, to get to know
(40:25):
ourselves, we still have to havea focal point, and so to be
able to latch onto anything inthe past, I think there had to
have been some degree of traumaor event horizon or conflict.
Otherwise it wouldn't haveregistered as important for me
to look back on right.
It wouldn't stand out enough.
So I don't know if thinkingthat everything was a trauma is
always a bad thing, because it'sjust a bookmark and the only
(40:48):
way I think to that referencepoint, the only way we can
identify where we want to go orwhere we need to go, is if we
first identify where we are.
Even Google Maps does that, andso it can't be that wrong.
You know, if AI is telling usto do it, I guess we're on the
(41:09):
right track.
As you're thinking through alot of those experiences, though
the honesty, you know, one ofthe things that you didn't say,
that I was expecting you to say,was authenticity and maybe even
integrity or some degree ofjust wholeness.
Yeah, and you didn't, and so Iguess maybe my second to last
(41:31):
question here for the sake oftime.
Why not?
Why don't those things registeras highly, do you think?
Chloe De Sousa (41:40):
I think, because I make them an assumption.
Josh Porthouse (41:46):
Oh, okay, all right.
Chloe De Sousa (41:49):
You know how sometimes we can overlook what
we are or even what we're goodat.
Like we just assume yeah, likethat has to be, integrity has to
be.
Authenticity has to be.
Integrity has to be,authenticity has to be.
I thought I felt quite hard toto hang on to myself at times
(42:10):
like my.
My job can be quite edgy attimes, you know just to stand up
and talk about some of thethings that I talk about, but
authenticity, just, I can't beanybody other than who I am, and
that changes over time.
Josh Porthouse (42:24):
That's true, so it is just sort of implied.
Chloe De Sousa (42:31):
Yeah, I love what you said about.
About like the trauma thing,because recently I've been
thinking quite a lot aboutnegative bias.
So the brain automaticallyheads towards the negative
because it's a primal responseto try and keep you safe in the
future.
Like, why did I get eaten bythe tiger?
Well, because I was outside thecave, so next time let's stay
inside the cave.
But also like, like what if wecould consciously choose also to
(42:56):
place our attention on some ofthe really good events?
Because one of the reasons whypsychotherapy is great but also
limiting is it can put us in thevictim role as opposed to like
choosing like choosing to placeour attention on oh my, oh my
gosh.
This happened, this was reallyamazing and therefore it marked
(43:17):
me in such a positive way yeah,well, that's the beauty of dance
, right?
Josh Porthouse (43:22):
you can play the victim or the heroine, it
really doesn't make a differenceyeah it's, it's all in how you
express it in the moment, Iguess and noticing what happens,
which role you take.
Chloe De Sousa (43:33):
Yeah, what's?
What's the outcome?
Well, sure, yeah, sometimes youlead, sometimes you follow, I
guess yeah, absolutely, and whatfeels best, and can I allow
myself to feel that?
Josh Porthouse (43:46):
yeah, permission takes time, but I guess that
leads me to my next question.
You, I guess, come up with thisidea and you've called it feral
grace, tell us about it, why.
What's?
What's the I'm guessing herethe relevance, but where'd that
come from?
Chloe De Sousa (44:05):
I do stand for the wild.
I do stand for the slightlyuncensored, for the edgy, for
the things that we wanted to say, that we never said, for the
risk, for the permission forpeople to be more of themselves
that might have got got squashed, for the feral part of
ourselves to let that be in ineach and every individual or
(44:29):
however it occurs to them.
Um, and the grace is becausealso the other side of it, like
wild, isn't all over everybodyelse.
Wild can be a tiny littlemotion or a subtle movement,
that and that, and, and my heartgot broken and there was a
grace in that, but it released alot of wild.
So here's feral grace.
(44:51):
You know, she, she kind of gotborn from this, this heartbreak
moment, and she's produced suchgoodness.
I'm so proud of her.
Josh Porthouse (45:00):
That's cool.
So for anybody then that wantsto get in touch and follow along
, or, you know, your your danceprogram, or maybe become a
client or learn more, where dothey?
Chloe De Sousa (45:16):
go.
My website's the best place tofind me and you can write to me
and I'll always answer.
I love chatting, so,wwwferalgracenet, there we go.
Get in touch.
Josh Porthouse (45:29):
Easy, Easy.
I have one last question foryou before we close this out,
because you briefly mentioned itearlier, or at least alluded to
it.
You know, at times working withother people and I think even
to a certain degree on you know,like podcasting or any sort of
social endeavor or industry, Ithink more difficult line in the
(45:54):
sand is not losing sight ofyourself in the process or not
relying on.
You know subconsciouslyassimilating pieces of other
people, but staying true toyourself there, and so I'm
curious, as you've gone throughthis over the last few decades
now, how have all yourexperiences actually instigated
your own self-worth?
Chloe De Sousa (46:15):
a main one that instigated my own self-worth was
was realizing that if I didn'tbelieve in me, then then it
wasn't going to happen, that therepair I needed wasn't going to
happen.
It was a hard moment.
It wasn't.
It wasn't a defense moment, itwas just like a deep inner
knowing of what I knew could bepossible from this moment, and
(46:36):
if I wasn't going to believe inme, then nobody else would see
that that was possible.
Josh Porthouse (46:41):
Good for you.
Yeah else would see that thatwas possible.
Good for you, yeah, wow, uh.
Well, I appreciate you bringingit up, and maybe reconciling is
not quite the right word, but Idon't know a more appropriate
one.
So, of all the experiences youhave had, I'm sorry they
happened to you, but I'm gladthey happened, period, and I'm
(47:03):
glad you were able to come upwith a way to use them to your
advantage, because, you know,selfishly, on one hand it made
this conversation super cool,but on the other hand, you know
there's a lot of people thatyou're working with or have
worked with that are benefitingas a result of all of the
experiences you've had andlearning to grow through that.
(47:24):
So letting yourself feel thosethings and allowing yourself to
learn from them, I think, is asuper, maybe underrated
superpower.
So congratulations.
Chloe De Sousa (47:36):
Thank you so much.
Josh Porthouse (47:38):
Absolutely.
Yeah Well, you know it's.
It's the least I can do foranybody who's new to the show.
You can obviously learn moreabout this conversation by going
to our websitetransactingvaluepodcastcom and
also, depending on the playeryou're streaming this
conversation on, you can clicksee more or maybe show more, and
(48:00):
in the drop down descriptionfor this conversation you'll see
a link to get to chloe'swebsite, feralgracenet, and get
there.
Even while you're listening orwatching to this conversation,
you can check her out as well.
But I appreciate your time,chloe, your insight and
obviously staying up a littlebit later to have this kind of a
conversation.
So thank you for your time andyour insight and your experience
(48:25):
.
Chloe De Sousa (48:25):
Thank you so much, josh, great to meet you.
Josh Porthouse (48:28):
Absolutely you as well, and to everybody else
who tuned in to watch thisconversation or listen to it,
depending on where you are andhow you're doing it.
Thank you, guys, for listeningto the show, staying with us,
and make sure when you're on ourhomepage, you click on the
leave a voicemail button.
You send us some feedback, youlet us know what you think of
the show, the questions, theconversation style, my beard,
(48:48):
anything, I don't care, I'm anopen book.
But also let Chloe know whatyou think of the conversation
and some of these talking pointsand some of her insights,
because that's how we learnright Feedback makes the world
go round.
So thank you, guys, and untilnext time.
That was Transacting Value.
Thank you to our show partnersand folks.
Thank you for tuning in andappreciating our value as we all
(49:11):
grow through life together.
To check out our otherconversations or even to
contribute through feedbackfollows, time, money or talent
and to let us know what youthink of the show.
Please leave a review on ourwebsite,
transactingvaluepodcastcom.
We also stream new episodesevery Monday at 9 am Eastern
Standard Time through all ofyour favorite podcasting
platforms like Spotify, iheartand TuneIn.
(49:33):
You can now hear TransactingValue on Wreaths Across America,
radio Head, towreathsacrossalueorg for
(49:59):
yourselves and your posterity.
We will continue instigatingself-worth and we'll meet you
there Until next time.
That was Transacting Value.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!