December 4, 2025 • 40 mins
What do faculty really think about transfer students and transfer policies? This episode explores that question through anonymous responses from nearly 4,000 CUNY faculty surveyed in 2021. Dr. Lexa Logue, who led the research, joins host Heather Adams and Emily Kittrell from NISTS to unpack what faculty said when given anonymity to speak candidly. Volunteer readers share direct quotes—some affirming, some negative, and some offering solutions. We examine the data honestly to identify where the system needs to change. Content note: This episode includes blunt language and deficit framing about community college faculty and students.
Special note:
Please help us send a huge THANK YOU to all the amazing volunteers who contributed their time and voices to this episode. You're awesome, and your clips sound fantastic! We couldn't have completed this special project without you. 💙💚💛
Want to read the quotes for yourself?
You can access a PDF of the episode transcript or dive into the full response database linked below.
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For more information about the publications and resources mentioned during this episode, visit:
- Logue, A. W., Rabinowitz, V., Oka, Y., Yoo, N., Torres, R., Gentsch, K., & Wutchiett, D. (2025). Faculty characteristics and views: Implications for vertical transfer. Journal of Postsecondary Student Success, 5(1). https://doi.org/10.33009/fsop_jpss138304
- Faculty Quotes Dataset (includes all responses to the open-ended questions to the faculty survey)
- CUNY Transfer Explorer (T-Rex)
- National Transfer Explorer
- Related CUNY A2B (Associate’s to Bachelor’s Degree Transfer) research publications
- Dr. Logue’s website
Show Credits
Host | Dr. Heather Adams
Producers | Rhian Waterberg, Emily Kittrell
Sound Editing | Abraham Urias
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Email: WeAreTransferNation@gmail.com
Talk soon!
#TransferPride #TransferSuccess #TransferChampion #TNTalks #TransferNation
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_25 (00:00):
Hello, listeners.
Thank you for tuning in.
Before we begin this episode, Iwant to let you know that
today's episode includesanonymous faculty quotes about
vertical transfer.
That is, transferring from acommunity college associate
degree program to a bachelor'sdegree program.
The quotes vary in their toneand their content, but I will
(00:24):
tell you, many express negativeviews about learners and
faculty.
And the language, frankly, issometimes blunt.
And one quote includes a minorcurse word.
If you're listening withchildren in the room or in a
public space or anywhere thatyou can't give it your full
attention, you may want tobookmark this episode for a more
(00:47):
focused listen at a later time.
We're sharing these voices withcare because honest data, even
when it's uncomfortable, helpsus understand the system we're
working to improve.
We'll be exploring this topic ina series, so stay tuned as we
delve deeper into the themesthat emerge from today.
(01:08):
Welcome to Transfer Talks fromTransformation.
I'm your host, Heather Adams,founder of Transformation and a
lifelong transfer advocate.
Here at Transformation andTransfer Talks, we believe that
transfer success is everyone'sresponsibility, no matter your
role, title, or department.
Today's students and learners,they're mobile, they're diverse,
(01:28):
and they're complex.
But our systems have not keptup.
The results?
Too many learners facing hiddenbarriers, lost credits, and
unclear paths.
This podcast is about changingthat.
In each episode, we'll spotlightreal conversations with
professionals, learners, andpartners from across higher
education.
People you might not think of astransfer folks, but who all play
(01:50):
a part in helping learnersthrive.
So let's break down those silos,challenge assumptions, and
reimagine what transfer can beand who is accountable for
realizing that success.
This is Transfer Talks, and youare right on time.
Let's talk transfer.
(02:10):
Hello, hello, welcome back toTransformation, where we
celebrate every educational andprofessional path, lift up what
works, and tackle the thornystuff with curiosity and care.
I am Heather Adams, and today Iam joined by Dr.
Lexa Logue, Professor Emerita atCity University of New York, or
(02:36):
CUNY, as it's sometimes called,and Emily Cottrell from the
National Institute for the Studyof Transfer Students, or NISTS.
Welcome to both of you.
Thanks for having us, Heather.
Hey, it's great to be here.
Many of our listeners mayalready know this, but one of
the most commonly repeatedstatistics in our field is that
(02:56):
about 80% of new communitycollege students want to earn a
bachelor's degree or higher.
But only 16% typically achievethat goal within six years of
transferring.
And that percentage is evenlower for historically
marginalized and minoritizedcommunities.
That is a national average, andit may not reflect your specific
(03:20):
region or state, but that gapthat's devastating.
That tells us something is notworking.
Lexa, you've been studyingtransfer in New York City for
several years.
So help us set the stage fortoday's discussion.
For those unfamiliar with CUNY,what makes it an ideal system
(03:40):
for transfer research?
SPEAKER_29 (03:42):
Happy to talk about that, Heather.
CUNY is a public system thatenrolls about 20,000 new
transfer students across 20 verydifferent undergraduate colleges
every year.
There are seven communitycolleges with associate degrees,
three comprehensive collegeswith both associate and
bachelor's degrees, and 10bachelor's colleges with
(04:03):
bachelor's degrees and above.
And the bachelor's collegesrange from selective to very
selective.
Plus, CUNY has a centralizeddata system.
This all gives us greatopportunity to rigorously study
and work to improve all kinds oftransfer, particularly involving
students from underrepresentedgroups.
(04:24):
Over 50% of CUNY studentsidentify as black or Hispanic,
with the percentages in thecommunity colleges being
somewhat higher than in thebachelor's colleges.
SPEAKER_25 (04:34):
Got it.
Now you've published severalfascinating studies, so I'm
going to make sure that we linkyour website in the show notes
so folks can learn more.
The research we're discussingtoday focuses on the responses
some faculty members provided tothree open-ended questions about
transfer.
Transformation listeners knowthat I love talking about the
(04:56):
role of faculty in transfer,which is why I am super excited
for this conversation.
Lexa, you conducted the surveyin 2021 with your colleague Dr.
Vita Rubinwitz, also ProfessorEmerita at CUNY, and some other
colleagues of yours.
So high level, tell us about thestudy and what you were hoping
(05:17):
to find.
SPEAKER_29 (05:18):
Sure.
The purposes of the survey wereto find out faculty's experience
with transfer and transferstudents and their views about
transfer policies and practices.
Almost 4,000 facultyparticipated in this survey from
all 20 CUNY colleges.
Some were full-time, somepart-time, some were at
community colleges, and somewere at bachelor's colleges, and
(05:41):
they were in all differentdisciplines.
We know that faculty play avital role in transfer.
They advise on transfer, preparestudents for transfer, spend
significant time with transfersin the classroom, and often
influenced whether and howcredits transfer.
So to better understand whatfaculty really think about all
(06:01):
this, we asked them to respondto three questions.
The first one was what theythought associate degree
granting community collegescould do differently to better
support transfers.
The second was what they thoughtbachelor's degree granting
institutions could dodifferently to better support
transfers.
(06:22):
And lastly, what else theywanted to tell us about
transfer.
The survey was anonymous so thatunlike in focus groups or
interviews, the faculty couldtell us exactly what they
thought without worrying aboutsomeone's disapproval.
SPEAKER_25 (06:38):
Got it.
Perfect.
Thank you for that overview.
Now I want to make sure to pausehere for a second and bring
Emily into the conversation.
Emily, you are not involved inthe study.
So how uh did you get connectedto this research?
SPEAKER_24 (06:54):
Yeah, that's a very valid question.
The best things about working atNISTS is that I get to connect
with so many fantasticpractitioners and researchers
through our annual conference.
So I've been a longtime fan ofLex's work.
So when she emailed us say, Ihave this idea for a podcast, I
mean, of course, I jumped at theopportunity to chime in on that.
(07:15):
It started as sort of technicalsupport about podcasts and sort
of snowballed from there.
Because, like you, Heather, I amdeeply curious about
understanding and supportingfaculty's role in transfer.
So I'm really thankful that Lexalet me preview this basically
gold mine of data.
So there are lots of interestingthemes to unpack today, but this
(07:36):
episode we want to devote toliterally hearing from faculty
in their own words.
We've pulled together a broadcollection of statements from
the survey and invitedvolunteers to read them aloud.
So these are our actualcolleagues who are also
committed to transfer.
So you might recognize some ofthe voices, listeners and
Heather, you might recognizethem.
But to reiterate, these aredirect quotes from the survey
(07:59):
that have been very lightlyedited for clarity and
anonymity.
SPEAKER_25 (08:03):
I love it.
I cannot wait to see if I canguess who the voices are.
But you also forgot to add,Emily, that you are a part of
this because you're an amazingpodcast producer.
And I know from personalexperience, as do our listeners.
So this is great.
Now, to be clear, this is not arepresentative sample of all
faculty everywhere in the world.
This is one system, one momentin time, and some of what we'll
(08:27):
hear is affirming, and some isgenuinely hard to hear.
SPEAKER_24 (08:32):
That is exactly right.
So, of course, we know thatthere are many faculty champions
doing incredible work fortransfer across the country.
So we're just hoping that byproviding this information, we
can inspire even more facultytransfer champions.
SPEAKER_29 (08:47):
But these anonymous responses do reveal assumptions
and knowledge gaps that exist inthe system.
And if we want to supporttransfer students better, we
have to be willing to look atthat honestly.
SPEAKER_25 (08:58):
Absolutely.
100%.
All of it matters if we'rereally serious about change.
Luxa, take us into what thefaculty respondents told you.
SPEAKER_29 (09:07):
Okay.
Some listeners may not besurprised to learn that
concerning transfer, manycommunity college faculty had
criticisms about the bachelor'scolleges and their faculty.
And many bachelor's collegefaculty had criticisms about the
community college, theirfaculty, and their transferring
students.
So the following are sometypical examples.
(09:28):
All the quotes you're going tohear first are from full-time
tenured faculty, those who arelikely to have the most
influence at a college oruniversity.
We're going to start with whatsome community college faculty
said, and then we'll see whatbachelor's college faculty had
to say.
SPEAKER_00 (09:45):
We literally do everything possible to help our
students.
Don't put this on us.
It is 100% the four-year schoolsthat make this process painful
for our students.
SPEAKER_34 (09:55):
The bachelor's colleges should be more
supportive of students and lessconcerned about their
publications.
SPEAKER_26 (10:01):
The four years have consistently created rules and
moved goalposts to offload moreand more grunt work, for
example, remediation to thecommunity colleges while forcing
students to retake classesthey've completed at the
associates level because it isnot high enough quality.
Gotta change the four years'perception of the work that
(10:24):
community colleges do.
SPEAKER_14 (10:27):
We community college professors see our students from
a strength-based lens.
We value the teaching of ourcommunity college colleagues,
and we agree to and actuallysign articulation agreements,
honor those agreements oncesigned, and honor classes that
are taught at the communitycollege level.
We have all the samequalifications as you do, and we
(10:50):
sat in the same graduate coursesas you did.
SPEAKER_12 (10:52):
The bachelor's colleges should stop disdaining
community colleges and helpprovide resources to better
align the curriculum.
SPEAKER_22 (10:59):
A certain CUNY Bachelor's College, which is
where most math majors at mycollege want to go, has not
taken most of our department'smath major courses, no matter
what we do.
This is a huge disadvantage forstudents.
There's no mechanism to requirethem to justify why they do
this, or to require them toarticulate what would need to be
(11:19):
changed in order for them toaccept them for credit.
Many students thus have torepeat many courses and run out
of financial aid.
This is a huge source ofinstitutional discrimination
that needs to be changed.
I'm a mathematician by training,so I respect the fact that the
four years are trying to be surethat what students learn is
rigorous.
But I think the way they measurerigor is riddled with biases, is
(11:42):
hugely inconsistent, andinequitable.
And there's no common way todiscuss what rigor means, to
define it, and or to ensure thattwo-year colleges can always
ensure that their courses areaccepted for transfer by
adhering to certain pre-agreedupon standards of rigor, and
that won't be changed on a whimlater.
SPEAKER_01 (12:03):
Most CUNY community college faculty hold doctorates
and are experts in their fields.
The condescension of faculty atthose CUNY senior colleges
ultimately harms the students.
SPEAKER_08 (12:14):
Four-year colleges have a chip on their shoulders
and it's hurting students.
Many community college facultyhave PhDs and do research in
their disciplines.
Faculty at four-year collegesneed to understand that courses
at community colleges are justas good as those at four-year
schools and accept them ratherthan make students retake them
or have them not count towards aDA or BS degree.
SPEAKER_07 (12:34):
Take the sticks out of their asses.
SPEAKER_45 (12:49):
Furthermore, our students have an easier time
getting their credits fullytransferred to NYU and Columbia
than to a certain CUNYBachelor's College.
Personally, I think it's becausethat bachelor's college has an
inferiority complex and theytake it out on our students.
SPEAKER_37 (13:05):
Please work on getting four-year colleges to
stop acting superior.
We are all CUNY.
Encourage departments tocooperate with each other on
fast, reasonable articulationagreements and to just generally
get to know each other better.
SPEAKER_23 (13:18):
A certain bachelor's college needs training in
anti-racist pedagogies and tostop being so elitist.
SPEAKER_32 (13:24):
Someone with a real interest in efficiency and fair
evaluation of prejudice and CUNYprofessionalism should sit on
the CUNY General Education, thatis, the Common Core, committee,
and record the discriminatory,dismissive attitude, comments,
and reasons behind the rejectionof Common Core inclusion from
(13:45):
courses coming from communitycolleges.
Oftentimes, Common Core rubricsare completely ignored in favor
of personal, biased opinionsgrounded on the fact that this
course comes from a communitycollege.
SPEAKER_31 (14:00):
We teach courses built to mirror our four-year
partners' courses, and still ourstudents are seen as less than
and through a deficit lens.
The transfer process is ripewith implicit and explicit bias
against our community collegestudents and faculty.
SPEAKER_25 (14:16):
Ooh, wow.
Okay, well, you can really hearthe frustration and
defensiveness of these communitycollege faculty.
Are there perceptions ofbachelor's colleges fair?
Well, let's listen to what somebachelor's college, the
full-time tenured faculty had tosay about the community colleges
(14:36):
curriculum, faculty, andstudents.
SPEAKER_17 (14:40):
The community colleges should align their
programs with the receivingcolleges rather than preparing
students for technical jobs.
SPEAKER_42 (14:48):
Transfer students are consistently underprepared
for bachelor's work.
Courses at many communitycolleges are just not
equivalent.
This is a particular problemwhen the courses are
prerequisites for higher levelwork.
SPEAKER_13 (15:00):
Make sure students are aware of the demands of
bachelor's level classes.
Place them appropriatelyaccording to their actual
knowledge, preparation, andacademic background, regardless
of good grades supposedly earnedin the prior college, which
often don't compare to what theywould have gotten in the college
they transferred into.
Provide tutoring support for themany who find they need it in
(15:23):
their new academic environment.
SPEAKER_27 (15:25):
Reserve the right to deny credit transfer from
associate's degree courses thathave high grade inflation.
SPEAKER_44 (15:32):
Community college courses are often graded too
generously.
Students have no idea of thetime needed to succeed in a real
college-level course.
Students pass writing and mathcourses without mastery of these
basic skills.
SPEAKER_21 (15:46):
The grades seem so inflated at community colleges,
which gives the transferstudents a false sense that
they're well prepared for upperlevel courses at a senior
college.
Some transfer students I havethis semester are writing at
maybe an eighth-grade level, forexample.
SPEAKER_46 (16:00):
Students show a complete lack of pretension of
basic math and geometry skills.
SPEAKER_20 (16:06):
We should think of the community college's role as
a great high school in twoyears, bringing students to a
level where they enter on thelevel of freshman plus.
Like students who took lots ofAP courses.
An associate's degree is justnot the same as the first two
years of a bachelor's program.
Until we understand thisreality, vertical transfer will
continue to fail.
Given the high school experienceof most community college
(16:26):
students, they need at least oneyear and often two years to
catch up.
The model of two years communitycollege, two years bachelor's
college, just does not work,which explains why two community
college plus four also does notwork.
The current system sets upstudents to fail, and they do.
SPEAKER_18 (16:42):
Transfer students should do bootcamp-style
remedial coursework in theirmajor.
Almost all associate's degreestudents in my department are
way behind students who startedat my four-year college.
SPEAKER_15 (16:55):
Students should take our required foundation courses
even if they've had theso-called equivalent.
They don't cover the sameintensive research foundation,
which sets them up for problems.
SPEAKER_36 (17:05):
Allow students to retake courses or have special
catch-up courses.
The biggest problem is lack ofpreparation by community
colleges.
Bring vertical transfers in atthe freshman plus level.
Plan for three to four years andbachelor's degree program.
SPEAKER_21 (17:20):
Mentally prepare students for having to redo work
at a bachelor's college.
SPEAKER_28 (17:24):
Vertical transfer students lack a lot of basic
training that's hard to make upwhen they can't take our
foundation classes because ofso-called equivalents.
We need them to redo thosecourses.
SPEAKER_05 (17:38):
For specialized majors like music, it is likely
that students will have to doanother three to four years.
Most transfer students onlyplace into Theory 1 and Music
History 1.
So even when their generaleducation courses are accepted,
they must start over in theirmajor area.
SPEAKER_38 (17:56):
We need better qualified faculty members and
associates' degree colleges.
Bachelor's colleges should notset students up for failure by
just accepting all students.
I see so many students withoutbasic skills.
No ability to search forscholarly sources, no ability to
use a library, no ability towrite an essay, no ability to
(18:19):
write a bibliography, no abilityto take notes or study.
Not all students should becompelled to attend bachelor's
degree granting colleges.
And the colleges need not acceptthem.
It's just setting students upfor debt and failure.
SPEAKER_27 (18:35):
Abandon the idea of transfers as being desirable.
Instead, expand the bachelor'scolleges so that they have more
capacity to provide four-yeardegrees.
SPEAKER_24 (18:47):
And here's a counterpoint from a full-time
tenured bachelor's degreecollege faculty member,
basically saying what somecommunity college faculty had
already pointed out, that a lotof these negative attitudes
towards transfer are reallyabout racial bias.
SPEAKER_07 (19:02):
Please recognize that beneath these conversations
is a racial bias against Blackand Latinx transfer students and
these populations more broadlyat CUNY.
These racial biases must beaddressed.
SPEAKER_25 (19:16):
Okay, so I don't know about y'all, but I'm having
some very visceral anduncomfortable reactions to a lot
of these quotes.
I mean, talk about deficitframing.
Honestly, I I'm feeling a littleangry.
SPEAKER_24 (19:33):
Yeah, I totally agree.
I was really tough to sitthrough, even harder to read
through a lot of theseresponses.
But I know for me, it matcheswhat I've heard from transfer
staff time and time again thatfaculty attitudes are one of the
biggest barriers to transfersuccess.
The assumptions, the resistanceto working across institutions,
(19:54):
it's real.
And students pick up on it too.
With some vertical transferstudents, as listeners know,
actively hiding where they startin college because they're
worried about being judged.
Lexa, what went through yourmind when you first saw these
quotes?
SPEAKER_29 (20:08):
Well, first I have to say that the negative claims
from some of the bachelor'scollege faculty concerning the
preparation and performance ofvertical transfer students are
not supported by the data.
In our extensive CUNY research,roughly 40% of vertical transfer
students' GPAs actually go upafter transfer.
(20:28):
It's also worth noting that thevast majority of vertical
transfer students are majoringin liberal arts transfer
pathways, not technicalprograms.
Finally, ultimately, thebachelor's colleges decide whom
they admit.
No one is forcing them to takeunqualified students, but these
misconceptions persist.
SPEAKER_25 (20:48):
Okay.
So surely the faculty responsesto the survey weren't all bad
news.
We just heard a lot of blame andessentially finger pointing at
each other.
But what other quotes stuck outto you?
SPEAKER_24 (21:02):
Yeah, so when I scanned the responses in the
database, I have to confess Iwas quite relieved to see that
there were also many faculty,both at community and bachelor's
colleges, who were very positiveabout transfer students and the
faculty and colleges of theother sector.
Here are some examples fromtenured faculty at bachelor's
colleges talking about verticaltransfer.
SPEAKER_11 (21:23):
Don't worry, we're a student took classes in the
past.
Nearly all of our students facechallenges and have knowledge
gaps.
All of them need and deservesupport.
SPEAKER_30 (21:32):
Figure out ways to accept as many credits as
possible from the associatedegree in order to retain
students and ensure graduation.
SPEAKER_10 (21:41):
Most of the top math majors at my bachelor's college
transferred into that bachelor'scollege.
In my experience, verticaltransfer is one of the most
significant ways in which CUNYlifts people up and supports
people who might otherwise notachieve certain academic and
subsequent career goals.
SPEAKER_17 (21:59):
Vertical transfer students are a great asset to
any program.
SPEAKER_24 (22:05):
And interestingly, there were also a lot of
part-time or adjunct facultyfrom the bachelor's colleges who
commented positively too.
And I actually really love thatbecause I suspect they knowingly
or unknowingly interact with alot of transfer students.
SPEAKER_09 (22:20):
Faculty must see all their students as capable and
not place judgment regardingwhere they started.
Community college students areusually very driven.
SPEAKER_39 (22:28):
This is perhaps the most important part of our
educational system.
It essentially means that nomatter who you are or what your
background is, that there is apath for you.
SPEAKER_16 (22:38):
I've had great students who transferred from a
certain community college.
That community college reallyworked on their essay writing
and thinking skills, gettingthem up to speed on the
fundamentals.
SPEAKER_48 (22:53):
More needs to be done to make these students feel
like they've made the rightchoice in selecting your school.
Many transfer students Iinteract with feel that they've
been run around from departmentto department with few answers.
Second to that, but no lessimportant, students must have
their credits evaluated as soonas possible.
Delays equal wasted time.
(23:14):
And time wasted is money wastedfor much of our student
population.
And lastly, some forbearancewith what transfers slash is
considered equivalent tobachelor's coursework.
Repeating classes also wastetime and money.
SPEAKER_04 (23:28):
It's important for all of us to recognize the vast
differences among our transferstudents.
Some of the most extraordinarilyable students I have encountered
were transfer students.
Included in this group ofextraordinarily able students
are those who are new to thiscountry or who came from extreme
economic need.
The community college provided abridge for them to the four-year
college.
We should be on the lookout forsuch students.
(23:50):
For most other students, we needto provide a rigorous
orientation program thatemphasizes the nature of the
independent learning expected ina bachelor's program.
SPEAKER_29 (23:59):
So we have many faculty with negative opinions
related to transfer, and alsomany faculty who have positive
opinions.
We need faculty from differentinstitutions to work together on
transfer.
And students perform better whentheir instructors view them
positively.
What can we do to increase thepercentage of faculty with
(24:19):
positive views about transfer?
SPEAKER_25 (24:21):
Absolutely.
And that is the key question,right?
I mean, at Transformation, webelieve that faculty are mission
critical partners in thetransfer student success
process.
But like all of us, they need anawareness and a deep
understanding of the learnerexperience to do right by
students.
SPEAKER_24 (24:42):
Absolutely.
And that's exactly what westarted to see in the responses
too.
Across both sectors and roles,faculty repeated a theme.
And it was very clear.
SPEAKER_29 (25:10):
And a tenured community college faculty member
wrote, the data on CUNY transfershould be available information
and easy for faculty to access.
SPEAKER_24 (25:20):
A part-time bachelor's college faculty
member wrote, I have absolutelyno good information on which to
base an informed opinion.
I'm just an adjunct.
My opinion doesn't matter, andmy students never mention this
stuff to me.
SPEAKER_29 (25:32):
Another part-time bachelor's college faculty
member wrote, I am an adjunct ata certain bachelor's college.
In the seven semesters I'vespent there, no one ever talked
to me about this.
I completed the survey to thebest of my knowledge, but I'm
worried that this is far moreimportant than what I understand
and made me realize the extentof disinformation we faculty
(25:56):
have.
SPEAKER_24 (25:56):
And a part-time community college faculty member
wrote, as an adjunct professorat a community college, I am
told nothing about transfers,about what challenges my
students might face along theselines, or anything else.
I do not even know whichstudents might want to transfer
to a four-year college untilsome of them approach me about
recommendation letters, which Ialways provide.
SPEAKER_29 (26:18):
You know, it's not a surprise that faculty don't have
much information about transfer.
The typical responsibilities ofa faculty member involve
teaching their courses well,producing scholarship or
creative works, and serving oncommittees.
Ordinarily, faculty know littleabout, nor are they expected to
know anything about, any coursetheir students have already
(26:41):
taken, how their students havebeen treated in the registration
process, the challenges theirstudents are facing at home, or
even how their students aredoing in their other courses.
This means that faculty havelittle actual information about
what may be responsible fortheir students' performance in
the faculty members' classroom.
And faculty may misinterpret theinformation that they think they
(27:05):
do have.
Listen to what this full-timetenured faculty member at a
bachelor's college said in thesurvey.
(27:27):
About half of this facultymember's college's bachelor's
graduates are transfer students.
And as mentioned before, 40% ofvertical transfer students' GPAs
go up at CUNY after transfer.
So there's a very good chancethat had this faculty member
looked into the background ofthe students performing well in
their class, the faculty memberwould have found that some of
(27:49):
these high-performing studentswere also transfers.
But in this faculty member'smind, transfer students often
perform poorly.
unknown (27:57):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_25 (27:58):
A classic example of seeing what they want to see in
that quote.
And before that, numerousfaculty pointing out that
they're doing the best that theycan with the very little
information that they have.
So clearly not enough educationand awareness and understanding
is being shared with faculty.
So, did anyone in the surveysuggest what information would
(28:21):
be helpful?
SPEAKER_24 (28:22):
Yes.
Thankfully, they definitely did,had lots of ideas to share.
So we're going to listen to somemore quotes about that
information.
Let's start with the full-timetenured community college
faculty.
SPEAKER_35 (28:34):
There is a real dearth of transfer data between
campuses.
Community colleges have no wayto track our students'
experiences during and aftertransfer.
We need a centralized databasethat has qualitative and
quantitative information that iscollected from all
constituencies, students,advisors, faculty.
SPEAKER_49 (28:57):
Provide students and faculty with more information
about which courses and how manycredits transfer.
SPEAKER_47 (29:03):
I have very little information about how my
students are doing aftertransfer.
I would love to know more aboutwhat I can do to prepare my
students for success in theirbachelor's institutions.
SPEAKER_43 (29:14):
I am very ignorant about transfer.
I am not even sure, for example,when reading statistics about
graduation rates, if thosefigures include transfer
students.
Since there is an office oftransfer in my college, I feel
it is mostly theirresponsibility to give accurate
information.
SPEAKER_29 (29:33):
It would be great to have information about where
students go after the associatesprogram.
And here is a full-time, not yettenured, community college
faculty member.
SPEAKER_02 (29:44):
Give associates degree granting colleges
digestible information on whatmatters and why.
We're way too busy to thinkregularly about these big
picture matters.
SPEAKER_24 (29:55):
And also the part-time or adjunct community
college faculty.
SPEAKER_33 (30:00):
I agreed we associate degree faculty need
more feedback on how well ourstudents do in four-year
programs.
I have several former studentswho tell me they're doing very
well in their bachelor's degreeprograms, but this is really the
only information I have.
Some actual statistics would bewelcome.
It's difficult to know if we'redoing a good job of preparing
our students or not without someactual data and feedback.
SPEAKER_35 (30:22):
Professors need more information about the process to
transfer and how to help theirstudents.
SPEAKER_41 (30:30):
More information for students and professors about
how each course satisfiesrequirements in a four-year
degree program.
SPEAKER_29 (30:37):
Bachelor's College faculty also made statements on
the survey regarding specificinformation they wanted about
transfer.
SPEAKER_06 (30:44):
A full-time, not yet tenured faculty member said,
I've never received any trainingor information about transfer
outcomes or advising or servicesavailable to transfer students
that I didn't seek out on my ownin response to a student
question.
In two years of working as afull-time employee at my
college, or in seven years ofbeing a graduate student
(31:06):
employee at CUNY, I do thinkthat intensive continual
training for new graduatestudents, adjuncts, and anyone
else employed in first-yearwriting programs could make a
big difference because weinevitably work with so many
transfer students at thebeginning of their time in a
bachelor's degree program.
I don't want this to become yetanother uncompensated job that
(31:28):
adjuncts are forced to take onas part of what they do.
But I do think thatunderstanding the labor piece of
this equation is critical.
As someone who will one day leadthe first year practicum, I
would also love to have a lotmore information than I do to
pass along to first-time,first-year composition
instructors or other people whohave taught first-year
(31:52):
composition before they have totake practicum.
SPEAKER_24 (31:57):
And finally, here are some statements from two
part-time adjunct bachelor'scollege faculty.
SPEAKER_03 (32:05):
Many faculty members would like to do more to support
vertical transfer students, butsome faculty don't know where to
start due to lack of informationabout what these students need.
SPEAKER_19 (32:17):
Instructors should have information about the
specific needs of transferstudents and clear information
about resources that can helpthem.
SPEAKER_25 (32:25):
A few things really stuck out to me and what the
faculty are asking for.
They want digestibleinformation.
They want qualitative andquantitative data and training.
They want to be able to trackstudents during and after
transfer.
And they want clear informationabout resources and how courses
(32:47):
actually transfer.
I mean, that all sounds prettyreasonable to me and pretty
maybe easy to get or at leastshare with faculty.
SPEAKER_29 (32:55):
What do you think, Lexa?
I completely agree, Heather.
And I'm happy to report thatsince this survey was conducted
in 2021, CUNY has instituted awebsite called Transfer
Explorer, which is also known asT-Rex, which provides some of
this information.
T-Rex easily shows everyone withno login how all CUNY courses
(33:16):
transfer to all CUNY colleges,including what program
requirements the transferredcredits will satisfy at the new
college.
A national version of TransferExplorer has recently been
released by Ithaca.
So at least some of theinformation that the CUNY
faculty said they wanted, theyare now indeed getting.
SPEAKER_25 (33:34):
Ooh, I love that.
Wow.
I know you and the team behindthe T-Rex system have put in a
massive amount of work over thepast few years to ensure that
it's really robust andtransparent.
And you're setting the bar forsure on what an open and
accessible system should looklike.
So thank you for that.
In fact, I think we could do anentire episode on that project.
(33:57):
So if you're interested, hinthint.
I am, I am.
Oh, yay! So for now, we'll linkto a few T-Rex resources so
folks who are listening can geta little more information and
we'll put those in the shownotes.
Emily, what are you thinking?
SPEAKER_24 (34:13):
Yeah, so lots of things, probably like a lot of
our listeners, but mostly thatfaculty aren't asking for
anything crazy.
And what's really striking to meis that the information they
want probably exists somewherein the system.
They just don't have easy accessto it.
I can't help but think aboutJulie Wong's book on my own.
(34:34):
I know a lot of our listenershave read that and are also fans
of that wonderful work.
But in that, she of course showsthat transfer students are
highly motivated, but navigatingwithout adequate institutional
support.
I think we're seeing the samething with faculty here.
They want to help theirstudents, but they're kind of on
their own, piecing togetherinformation wherever they can
find it, or like we heardearlier, relying on assumptions
(34:57):
to fill the gap.
SPEAKER_25 (34:58):
That parallel really resonates.
I like that.
If students need institutionalsupport to navigate transfer
successfully, faculty do too.
I think that seems like ano-brainer.
So let's talk solutions.
But not today.
Today we are out of time.
I'd love to continue thisconversation in another episode
where we can really delve intohow institutions can actually
(35:21):
close that information gap andbetter equip faculty with what
they need.
SPEAKER_24 (35:26):
Yeah, I think that would be great because obviously
all of us are sitting here likewith so many thoughts.
We want to chime in.
And it's important to hear thosevoices directly.
So I'm game.
SPEAKER_25 (35:34):
Yay! Awesome.
Okay, I'm excited to brainstorm.
Uh Lexa and Emily, thank you forbeing here and for sharing this
research with us today.
We've heard so much in thisepisode.
Faculty perspective on what'sworking, what's not working,
tensions between communitycolleges and bachelor's
institutions, and real gaps inthe information faculty say they
(36:00):
need.
Is there anything else before wewrap up that you want listeners
to know?
SPEAKER_29 (36:04):
Well, first of all, thanks so much for having us do
this, Heather.
This has been great and Emily.
I hope that hearing the quoteshas been interesting and
helpful.
And for listeners who want todig deeper into what faculty are
saying, we encourage you tocheck out our new publication on
the results of the facultysurvey in the Journal of
(36:25):
Post-Secondary Student Success.
Also, our data set with over4,000 faculty responses to the
open-ended questions is alsofreely available in CUNY's
Academic Works repository.
So please explore it and use itfor your own research questions.
SPEAKER_25 (36:42):
Excellent.
I love that.
We'll make sure to link to bothof those in the show notes.
SPEAKER_24 (36:47):
Yeah, and I just also add obviously a huge thank
you to Lexa for leading thiswork and for inviting me into
this conversation and sharingall these quotes.
But I think mostly what I wantto leave with is as I said
before, I hear about negativeattitudes and collaboration
challenges anecdotally all thetime.
But seeing them documented insuch really strong language is
(37:09):
such a powerful reminder to meand hopefully to everybody else
of how important it is toactually ask faculty for input
and give them space to becandid.
You know, talk to your studentsis one of the top pieces of
advice that we give, but we needto make time to hear from
faculty too, even when it'suncomfortable.
SPEAKER_29 (37:27):
And I'd be remiss if I didn't add that we are really
grateful for the support of thisresearch by the Ascendium, ECMC,
Gates, Heckscher, Ichigo,Mellon, and Petrie Foundations,
and also by the Institute ofEducation Sciences.
We're also grateful to CUNY'sOffice of Applied Research,
Evaluation and Data Analytics,CCRC, Ithaca SNR, MDRC, NISTS,
(37:51):
and TransferNation, all of thosefor their collaboration in our
transfer work, and especially,of course, to NISTS and
TransferNation and all ourvolunteer quote readers, who are
amazing, for everything theydid, all of them, to make this
podcast a reality.
SPEAKER_24 (38:09):
Yeah, they did a totally awesome job.
That was so fun.
SPEAKER_25 (38:13):
Truly such a creative episode.
I'm so grateful.
All right, listeners, we want tohear from you.
First, were you surprised bywhat you heard from faculty
today?
Have you heard similarsentiments in your own campuses?
Uh, we just want to know,alternatively, what's one thing
that your campus has done to gettimely, accurate transfer info
(38:37):
to faculty?
Or maybe there's a roadblockthat you're hitting.
We want to know, we want to knowit all.
So send a voice memo or a DM toTransformation.
And thank you so much forlistening.
You are listening to TransferNation Talks.
TransferNation is a community ofeducators and advocates working
to improve the transfer andpost-traditional student
(38:59):
experience and celebratetransfer and community college
as the pathway of success thatit is.
You can join us here every weekor so for conversations on,
well, everything transfer.
From advocate conversationsfocused on grappling with
today's most importanttransfer-centric topics to the
nuts and bolts on transferprogramming services and
(39:22):
building more inclusion fortransfers on our campuses.
To transfer stories and theinside scoop from transfers and
transfer alum.
You can continue theconversation with the community
anytime on Facebook, Instagram,Twitter, LinkedIn, YouTube,
TikTok, and in person at themany events and transfer think
tanks hosted by theTransferNation community.
(39:44):
So be sure to join us on yourfavorite platform as we learn
from and with one another how tobust out of the status quo,
disrupt systemic inequities, andreimagine, reform, renew, and
regenerate educationalopportunities that work for
students, that center thestudent experience of today,
(40:05):
rather than what works best foroutdated and ineffective
processes and procedure.
Until our next conversation fromthe whole Transformation team in
Transfer Community and TransferPride.
See you next time!
Hello, listeners.
Thank you for tuning in.
Before we begin this episode, Iwant to let you know that
today's episode includesanonymous faculty quotes about
vertical transfer.
That is, transferring from acommunity college associate
degree program to a bachelor'sdegree program.
The quotes vary in their toneand their content, but I will
(00:24):
tell you, many express negativeviews about learners and
faculty.
And the language, frankly, issometimes blunt.
And one quote includes a minorcurse word.
If you're listening withchildren in the room or in a
public space or anywhere thatyou can't give it your full
attention, you may want tobookmark this episode for a more
(00:47):
focused listen at a later time.
We're sharing these voices withcare because honest data, even
when it's uncomfortable, helpsus understand the system we're
working to improve.
We'll be exploring this topic ina series, so stay tuned as we
delve deeper into the themesthat emerge from today.
(01:08):
Welcome to Transfer Talks fromTransformation.
I'm your host, Heather Adams,founder of Transformation and a
lifelong transfer advocate.
Here at Transformation andTransfer Talks, we believe that
transfer success is everyone'sresponsibility, no matter your
role, title, or department.
Today's students and learners,they're mobile, they're diverse,
(01:28):
and they're complex.
But our systems have not keptup.
The results?
Too many learners facing hiddenbarriers, lost credits, and
unclear paths.
This podcast is about changingthat.
In each episode, we'll spotlightreal conversations with
professionals, learners, andpartners from across higher
education.
People you might not think of astransfer folks, but who all play
(01:50):
a part in helping learnersthrive.
So let's break down those silos,challenge assumptions, and
reimagine what transfer can beand who is accountable for
realizing that success.
This is Transfer Talks, and youare right on time.
Let's talk transfer.
(02:10):
Hello, hello, welcome back toTransformation, where we
celebrate every educational andprofessional path, lift up what
works, and tackle the thornystuff with curiosity and care.
I am Heather Adams, and today Iam joined by Dr.
Lexa Logue, Professor Emerita atCity University of New York, or
(02:36):
CUNY, as it's sometimes called,and Emily Cottrell from the
National Institute for the Studyof Transfer Students, or NISTS.
Welcome to both of you.
Thanks for having us, Heather.
Hey, it's great to be here.
Many of our listeners mayalready know this, but one of
the most commonly repeatedstatistics in our field is that
(02:56):
about 80% of new communitycollege students want to earn a
bachelor's degree or higher.
But only 16% typically achievethat goal within six years of
transferring.
And that percentage is evenlower for historically
marginalized and minoritizedcommunities.
That is a national average, andit may not reflect your specific
(03:20):
region or state, but that gapthat's devastating.
That tells us something is notworking.
Lexa, you've been studyingtransfer in New York City for
several years.
So help us set the stage fortoday's discussion.
For those unfamiliar with CUNY,what makes it an ideal system
(03:40):
for transfer research?
SPEAKER_29 (03:42):
Happy to talk about that, Heather.
CUNY is a public system thatenrolls about 20,000 new
transfer students across 20 verydifferent undergraduate colleges
every year.
There are seven communitycolleges with associate degrees,
three comprehensive collegeswith both associate and
bachelor's degrees, and 10bachelor's colleges with
(04:03):
bachelor's degrees and above.
And the bachelor's collegesrange from selective to very
selective.
Plus, CUNY has a centralizeddata system.
This all gives us greatopportunity to rigorously study
and work to improve all kinds oftransfer, particularly involving
students from underrepresentedgroups.
(04:24):
Over 50% of CUNY studentsidentify as black or Hispanic,
with the percentages in thecommunity colleges being
somewhat higher than in thebachelor's colleges.
SPEAKER_25 (04:34):
Got it.
Now you've published severalfascinating studies, so I'm
going to make sure that we linkyour website in the show notes
so folks can learn more.
The research we're discussingtoday focuses on the responses
some faculty members provided tothree open-ended questions about
transfer.
Transformation listeners knowthat I love talking about the
(04:56):
role of faculty in transfer,which is why I am super excited
for this conversation.
Lexa, you conducted the surveyin 2021 with your colleague Dr.
Vita Rubinwitz, also ProfessorEmerita at CUNY, and some other
colleagues of yours.
So high level, tell us about thestudy and what you were hoping
(05:17):
to find.
SPEAKER_29 (05:18):
Sure.
The purposes of the survey wereto find out faculty's experience
with transfer and transferstudents and their views about
transfer policies and practices.
Almost 4,000 facultyparticipated in this survey from
all 20 CUNY colleges.
Some were full-time, somepart-time, some were at
community colleges, and somewere at bachelor's colleges, and
(05:41):
they were in all differentdisciplines.
We know that faculty play avital role in transfer.
They advise on transfer, preparestudents for transfer, spend
significant time with transfersin the classroom, and often
influenced whether and howcredits transfer.
So to better understand whatfaculty really think about all
(06:01):
this, we asked them to respondto three questions.
The first one was what theythought associate degree
granting community collegescould do differently to better
support transfers.
The second was what they thoughtbachelor's degree granting
institutions could dodifferently to better support
transfers.
(06:22):
And lastly, what else theywanted to tell us about
transfer.
The survey was anonymous so thatunlike in focus groups or
interviews, the faculty couldtell us exactly what they
thought without worrying aboutsomeone's disapproval.
SPEAKER_25 (06:38):
Got it.
Perfect.
Thank you for that overview.
Now I want to make sure to pausehere for a second and bring
Emily into the conversation.
Emily, you are not involved inthe study.
So how uh did you get connectedto this research?
SPEAKER_24 (06:54):
Yeah, that's a very valid question.
The best things about working atNISTS is that I get to connect
with so many fantasticpractitioners and researchers
through our annual conference.
So I've been a longtime fan ofLex's work.
So when she emailed us say, Ihave this idea for a podcast, I
mean, of course, I jumped at theopportunity to chime in on that.
(07:15):
It started as sort of technicalsupport about podcasts and sort
of snowballed from there.
Because, like you, Heather, I amdeeply curious about
understanding and supportingfaculty's role in transfer.
So I'm really thankful that Lexalet me preview this basically
gold mine of data.
So there are lots of interestingthemes to unpack today, but this
(07:36):
episode we want to devote toliterally hearing from faculty
in their own words.
We've pulled together a broadcollection of statements from
the survey and invitedvolunteers to read them aloud.
So these are our actualcolleagues who are also
committed to transfer.
So you might recognize some ofthe voices, listeners and
Heather, you might recognizethem.
But to reiterate, these aredirect quotes from the survey
(07:59):
that have been very lightlyedited for clarity and
anonymity.
SPEAKER_25 (08:03):
I love it.
I cannot wait to see if I canguess who the voices are.
But you also forgot to add,Emily, that you are a part of
this because you're an amazingpodcast producer.
And I know from personalexperience, as do our listeners.
So this is great.
Now, to be clear, this is not arepresentative sample of all
faculty everywhere in the world.
This is one system, one momentin time, and some of what we'll
(08:27):
hear is affirming, and some isgenuinely hard to hear.
SPEAKER_24 (08:32):
That is exactly right.
So, of course, we know thatthere are many faculty champions
doing incredible work fortransfer across the country.
So we're just hoping that byproviding this information, we
can inspire even more facultytransfer champions.
SPEAKER_29 (08:47):
But these anonymous responses do reveal assumptions
and knowledge gaps that exist inthe system.
And if we want to supporttransfer students better, we
have to be willing to look atthat honestly.
SPEAKER_25 (08:58):
Absolutely.
100%.
All of it matters if we'rereally serious about change.
Luxa, take us into what thefaculty respondents told you.
SPEAKER_29 (09:07):
Okay.
Some listeners may not besurprised to learn that
concerning transfer, manycommunity college faculty had
criticisms about the bachelor'scolleges and their faculty.
And many bachelor's collegefaculty had criticisms about the
community college, theirfaculty, and their transferring
students.
So the following are sometypical examples.
(09:28):
All the quotes you're going tohear first are from full-time
tenured faculty, those who arelikely to have the most
influence at a college oruniversity.
We're going to start with whatsome community college faculty
said, and then we'll see whatbachelor's college faculty had
to say.
SPEAKER_00 (09:45):
We literally do everything possible to help our
students.
Don't put this on us.
It is 100% the four-year schoolsthat make this process painful
for our students.
SPEAKER_34 (09:55):
The bachelor's colleges should be more
supportive of students and lessconcerned about their
publications.
SPEAKER_26 (10:01):
The four years have consistently created rules and
moved goalposts to offload moreand more grunt work, for
example, remediation to thecommunity colleges while forcing
students to retake classesthey've completed at the
associates level because it isnot high enough quality.
Gotta change the four years'perception of the work that
(10:24):
community colleges do.
SPEAKER_14 (10:27):
We community college professors see our students from
a strength-based lens.
We value the teaching of ourcommunity college colleagues,
and we agree to and actuallysign articulation agreements,
honor those agreements oncesigned, and honor classes that
are taught at the communitycollege level.
We have all the samequalifications as you do, and we
(10:50):
sat in the same graduate coursesas you did.
SPEAKER_12 (10:52):
The bachelor's colleges should stop disdaining
community colleges and helpprovide resources to better
align the curriculum.
SPEAKER_22 (10:59):
A certain CUNY Bachelor's College, which is
where most math majors at mycollege want to go, has not
taken most of our department'smath major courses, no matter
what we do.
This is a huge disadvantage forstudents.
There's no mechanism to requirethem to justify why they do
this, or to require them toarticulate what would need to be
(11:19):
changed in order for them toaccept them for credit.
Many students thus have torepeat many courses and run out
of financial aid.
This is a huge source ofinstitutional discrimination
that needs to be changed.
I'm a mathematician by training,so I respect the fact that the
four years are trying to be surethat what students learn is
rigorous.
But I think the way they measurerigor is riddled with biases, is
(11:42):
hugely inconsistent, andinequitable.
And there's no common way todiscuss what rigor means, to
define it, and or to ensure thattwo-year colleges can always
ensure that their courses areaccepted for transfer by
adhering to certain pre-agreedupon standards of rigor, and
that won't be changed on a whimlater.
SPEAKER_01 (12:03):
Most CUNY community college faculty hold doctorates
and are experts in their fields.
The condescension of faculty atthose CUNY senior colleges
ultimately harms the students.
SPEAKER_08 (12:14):
Four-year colleges have a chip on their shoulders
and it's hurting students.
Many community college facultyhave PhDs and do research in
their disciplines.
Faculty at four-year collegesneed to understand that courses
at community colleges are justas good as those at four-year
schools and accept them ratherthan make students retake them
or have them not count towards aDA or BS degree.
SPEAKER_07 (12:34):
Take the sticks out of their asses.
SPEAKER_45 (12:49):
Furthermore, our students have an easier time
getting their credits fullytransferred to NYU and Columbia
than to a certain CUNYBachelor's College.
Personally, I think it's becausethat bachelor's college has an
inferiority complex and theytake it out on our students.
SPEAKER_37 (13:05):
Please work on getting four-year colleges to
stop acting superior.
We are all CUNY.
Encourage departments tocooperate with each other on
fast, reasonable articulationagreements and to just generally
get to know each other better.
SPEAKER_23 (13:18):
A certain bachelor's college needs training in
anti-racist pedagogies and tostop being so elitist.
SPEAKER_32 (13:24):
Someone with a real interest in efficiency and fair
evaluation of prejudice and CUNYprofessionalism should sit on
the CUNY General Education, thatis, the Common Core, committee,
and record the discriminatory,dismissive attitude, comments,
and reasons behind the rejectionof Common Core inclusion from
(13:45):
courses coming from communitycolleges.
Oftentimes, Common Core rubricsare completely ignored in favor
of personal, biased opinionsgrounded on the fact that this
course comes from a communitycollege.
SPEAKER_31 (14:00):
We teach courses built to mirror our four-year
partners' courses, and still ourstudents are seen as less than
and through a deficit lens.
The transfer process is ripewith implicit and explicit bias
against our community collegestudents and faculty.
SPEAKER_25 (14:16):
Ooh, wow.
Okay, well, you can really hearthe frustration and
defensiveness of these communitycollege faculty.
Are there perceptions ofbachelor's colleges fair?
Well, let's listen to what somebachelor's college, the
full-time tenured faculty had tosay about the community colleges
(14:36):
curriculum, faculty, andstudents.
SPEAKER_17 (14:40):
The community colleges should align their
programs with the receivingcolleges rather than preparing
students for technical jobs.
SPEAKER_42 (14:48):
Transfer students are consistently underprepared
for bachelor's work.
Courses at many communitycolleges are just not
equivalent.
This is a particular problemwhen the courses are
prerequisites for higher levelwork.
SPEAKER_13 (15:00):
Make sure students are aware of the demands of
bachelor's level classes.
Place them appropriatelyaccording to their actual
knowledge, preparation, andacademic background, regardless
of good grades supposedly earnedin the prior college, which
often don't compare to what theywould have gotten in the college
they transferred into.
Provide tutoring support for themany who find they need it in
(15:23):
their new academic environment.
SPEAKER_27 (15:25):
Reserve the right to deny credit transfer from
associate's degree courses thathave high grade inflation.
SPEAKER_44 (15:32):
Community college courses are often graded too
generously.
Students have no idea of thetime needed to succeed in a real
college-level course.
Students pass writing and mathcourses without mastery of these
basic skills.
SPEAKER_21 (15:46):
The grades seem so inflated at community colleges,
which gives the transferstudents a false sense that
they're well prepared for upperlevel courses at a senior
college.
Some transfer students I havethis semester are writing at
maybe an eighth-grade level, forexample.
SPEAKER_46 (16:00):
Students show a complete lack of pretension of
basic math and geometry skills.
SPEAKER_20 (16:06):
We should think of the community college's role as
a great high school in twoyears, bringing students to a
level where they enter on thelevel of freshman plus.
Like students who took lots ofAP courses.
An associate's degree is justnot the same as the first two
years of a bachelor's program.
Until we understand thisreality, vertical transfer will
continue to fail.
Given the high school experienceof most community college
(16:26):
students, they need at least oneyear and often two years to
catch up.
The model of two years communitycollege, two years bachelor's
college, just does not work,which explains why two community
college plus four also does notwork.
The current system sets upstudents to fail, and they do.
SPEAKER_18 (16:42):
Transfer students should do bootcamp-style
remedial coursework in theirmajor.
Almost all associate's degreestudents in my department are
way behind students who startedat my four-year college.
SPEAKER_15 (16:55):
Students should take our required foundation courses
even if they've had theso-called equivalent.
They don't cover the sameintensive research foundation,
which sets them up for problems.
SPEAKER_36 (17:05):
Allow students to retake courses or have special
catch-up courses.
The biggest problem is lack ofpreparation by community
colleges.
Bring vertical transfers in atthe freshman plus level.
Plan for three to four years andbachelor's degree program.
SPEAKER_21 (17:20):
Mentally prepare students for having to redo work
at a bachelor's college.
SPEAKER_28 (17:24):
Vertical transfer students lack a lot of basic
training that's hard to make upwhen they can't take our
foundation classes because ofso-called equivalents.
We need them to redo thosecourses.
SPEAKER_05 (17:38):
For specialized majors like music, it is likely
that students will have to doanother three to four years.
Most transfer students onlyplace into Theory 1 and Music
History 1.
So even when their generaleducation courses are accepted,
they must start over in theirmajor area.
SPEAKER_38 (17:56):
We need better qualified faculty members and
associates' degree colleges.
Bachelor's colleges should notset students up for failure by
just accepting all students.
I see so many students withoutbasic skills.
No ability to search forscholarly sources, no ability to
use a library, no ability towrite an essay, no ability to
(18:19):
write a bibliography, no abilityto take notes or study.
Not all students should becompelled to attend bachelor's
degree granting colleges.
And the colleges need not acceptthem.
It's just setting students upfor debt and failure.
SPEAKER_27 (18:35):
Abandon the idea of transfers as being desirable.
Instead, expand the bachelor'scolleges so that they have more
capacity to provide four-yeardegrees.
SPEAKER_24 (18:47):
And here's a counterpoint from a full-time
tenured bachelor's degreecollege faculty member,
basically saying what somecommunity college faculty had
already pointed out, that a lotof these negative attitudes
towards transfer are reallyabout racial bias.
SPEAKER_07 (19:02):
Please recognize that beneath these conversations
is a racial bias against Blackand Latinx transfer students and
these populations more broadlyat CUNY.
These racial biases must beaddressed.
SPEAKER_25 (19:16):
Okay, so I don't know about y'all, but I'm having
some very visceral anduncomfortable reactions to a lot
of these quotes.
I mean, talk about deficitframing.
Honestly, I I'm feeling a littleangry.
SPEAKER_24 (19:33):
Yeah, I totally agree.
I was really tough to sitthrough, even harder to read
through a lot of theseresponses.
But I know for me, it matcheswhat I've heard from transfer
staff time and time again thatfaculty attitudes are one of the
biggest barriers to transfersuccess.
The assumptions, the resistanceto working across institutions,
(19:54):
it's real.
And students pick up on it too.
With some vertical transferstudents, as listeners know,
actively hiding where they startin college because they're
worried about being judged.
Lexa, what went through yourmind when you first saw these
quotes?
SPEAKER_29 (20:08):
Well, first I have to say that the negative claims
from some of the bachelor'scollege faculty concerning the
preparation and performance ofvertical transfer students are
not supported by the data.
In our extensive CUNY research,roughly 40% of vertical transfer
students' GPAs actually go upafter transfer.
(20:28):
It's also worth noting that thevast majority of vertical
transfer students are majoringin liberal arts transfer
pathways, not technicalprograms.
Finally, ultimately, thebachelor's colleges decide whom
they admit.
No one is forcing them to takeunqualified students, but these
misconceptions persist.
SPEAKER_25 (20:48):
Okay.
So surely the faculty responsesto the survey weren't all bad
news.
We just heard a lot of blame andessentially finger pointing at
each other.
But what other quotes stuck outto you?
SPEAKER_24 (21:02):
Yeah, so when I scanned the responses in the
database, I have to confess Iwas quite relieved to see that
there were also many faculty,both at community and bachelor's
colleges, who were very positiveabout transfer students and the
faculty and colleges of theother sector.
Here are some examples fromtenured faculty at bachelor's
colleges talking about verticaltransfer.
SPEAKER_11 (21:23):
Don't worry, we're a student took classes in the
past.
Nearly all of our students facechallenges and have knowledge
gaps.
All of them need and deservesupport.
SPEAKER_30 (21:32):
Figure out ways to accept as many credits as
possible from the associatedegree in order to retain
students and ensure graduation.
SPEAKER_10 (21:41):
Most of the top math majors at my bachelor's college
transferred into that bachelor'scollege.
In my experience, verticaltransfer is one of the most
significant ways in which CUNYlifts people up and supports
people who might otherwise notachieve certain academic and
subsequent career goals.
SPEAKER_17 (21:59):
Vertical transfer students are a great asset to
any program.
SPEAKER_24 (22:05):
And interestingly, there were also a lot of
part-time or adjunct facultyfrom the bachelor's colleges who
commented positively too.
And I actually really love thatbecause I suspect they knowingly
or unknowingly interact with alot of transfer students.
SPEAKER_09 (22:20):
Faculty must see all their students as capable and
not place judgment regardingwhere they started.
Community college students areusually very driven.
SPEAKER_39 (22:28):
This is perhaps the most important part of our
educational system.
It essentially means that nomatter who you are or what your
background is, that there is apath for you.
SPEAKER_16 (22:38):
I've had great students who transferred from a
certain community college.
That community college reallyworked on their essay writing
and thinking skills, gettingthem up to speed on the
fundamentals.
SPEAKER_48 (22:53):
More needs to be done to make these students feel
like they've made the rightchoice in selecting your school.
Many transfer students Iinteract with feel that they've
been run around from departmentto department with few answers.
Second to that, but no lessimportant, students must have
their credits evaluated as soonas possible.
Delays equal wasted time.
(23:14):
And time wasted is money wastedfor much of our student
population.
And lastly, some forbearancewith what transfers slash is
considered equivalent tobachelor's coursework.
Repeating classes also wastetime and money.
SPEAKER_04 (23:28):
It's important for all of us to recognize the vast
differences among our transferstudents.
Some of the most extraordinarilyable students I have encountered
were transfer students.
Included in this group ofextraordinarily able students
are those who are new to thiscountry or who came from extreme
economic need.
The community college provided abridge for them to the four-year
college.
We should be on the lookout forsuch students.
(23:50):
For most other students, we needto provide a rigorous
orientation program thatemphasizes the nature of the
independent learning expected ina bachelor's program.
SPEAKER_29 (23:59):
So we have many faculty with negative opinions
related to transfer, and alsomany faculty who have positive
opinions.
We need faculty from differentinstitutions to work together on
transfer.
And students perform better whentheir instructors view them
positively.
What can we do to increase thepercentage of faculty with
(24:19):
positive views about transfer?
SPEAKER_25 (24:21):
Absolutely.
And that is the key question,right?
I mean, at Transformation, webelieve that faculty are mission
critical partners in thetransfer student success
process.
But like all of us, they need anawareness and a deep
understanding of the learnerexperience to do right by
students.
SPEAKER_24 (24:42):
Absolutely.
And that's exactly what westarted to see in the responses
too.
Across both sectors and roles,faculty repeated a theme.
And it was very clear.
SPEAKER_29 (25:10):
And a tenured community college faculty member
wrote, the data on CUNY transfershould be available information
and easy for faculty to access.
SPEAKER_24 (25:20):
A part-time bachelor's college faculty
member wrote, I have absolutelyno good information on which to
base an informed opinion.
I'm just an adjunct.
My opinion doesn't matter, andmy students never mention this
stuff to me.
SPEAKER_29 (25:32):
Another part-time bachelor's college faculty
member wrote, I am an adjunct ata certain bachelor's college.
In the seven semesters I'vespent there, no one ever talked
to me about this.
I completed the survey to thebest of my knowledge, but I'm
worried that this is far moreimportant than what I understand
and made me realize the extentof disinformation we faculty
(25:56):
have.
SPEAKER_24 (25:56):
And a part-time community college faculty member
wrote, as an adjunct professorat a community college, I am
told nothing about transfers,about what challenges my
students might face along theselines, or anything else.
I do not even know whichstudents might want to transfer
to a four-year college untilsome of them approach me about
recommendation letters, which Ialways provide.
SPEAKER_29 (26:18):
You know, it's not a surprise that faculty don't have
much information about transfer.
The typical responsibilities ofa faculty member involve
teaching their courses well,producing scholarship or
creative works, and serving oncommittees.
Ordinarily, faculty know littleabout, nor are they expected to
know anything about, any coursetheir students have already
(26:41):
taken, how their students havebeen treated in the registration
process, the challenges theirstudents are facing at home, or
even how their students aredoing in their other courses.
This means that faculty havelittle actual information about
what may be responsible fortheir students' performance in
the faculty members' classroom.
And faculty may misinterpret theinformation that they think they
(27:05):
do have.
Listen to what this full-timetenured faculty member at a
bachelor's college said in thesurvey.
(27:27):
About half of this facultymember's college's bachelor's
graduates are transfer students.
And as mentioned before, 40% ofvertical transfer students' GPAs
go up at CUNY after transfer.
So there's a very good chancethat had this faculty member
looked into the background ofthe students performing well in
their class, the faculty memberwould have found that some of
(27:49):
these high-performing studentswere also transfers.
But in this faculty member'smind, transfer students often
perform poorly.
unknown (27:57):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_25 (27:58):
A classic example of seeing what they want to see in
that quote.
And before that, numerousfaculty pointing out that
they're doing the best that theycan with the very little
information that they have.
So clearly not enough educationand awareness and understanding
is being shared with faculty.
So, did anyone in the surveysuggest what information would
(28:21):
be helpful?
SPEAKER_24 (28:22):
Yes.
Thankfully, they definitely did,had lots of ideas to share.
So we're going to listen to somemore quotes about that
information.
Let's start with the full-timetenured community college
faculty.
SPEAKER_35 (28:34):
There is a real dearth of transfer data between
campuses.
Community colleges have no wayto track our students'
experiences during and aftertransfer.
We need a centralized databasethat has qualitative and
quantitative information that iscollected from all
constituencies, students,advisors, faculty.
SPEAKER_49 (28:57):
Provide students and faculty with more information
about which courses and how manycredits transfer.
SPEAKER_47 (29:03):
I have very little information about how my
students are doing aftertransfer.
I would love to know more aboutwhat I can do to prepare my
students for success in theirbachelor's institutions.
SPEAKER_43 (29:14):
I am very ignorant about transfer.
I am not even sure, for example,when reading statistics about
graduation rates, if thosefigures include transfer
students.
Since there is an office oftransfer in my college, I feel
it is mostly theirresponsibility to give accurate
information.
SPEAKER_29 (29:33):
It would be great to have information about where
students go after the associatesprogram.
And here is a full-time, not yettenured, community college
faculty member.
SPEAKER_02 (29:44):
Give associates degree granting colleges
digestible information on whatmatters and why.
We're way too busy to thinkregularly about these big
picture matters.
SPEAKER_24 (29:55):
And also the part-time or adjunct community
college faculty.
SPEAKER_33 (30:00):
I agreed we associate degree faculty need
more feedback on how well ourstudents do in four-year
programs.
I have several former studentswho tell me they're doing very
well in their bachelor's degreeprograms, but this is really the
only information I have.
Some actual statistics would bewelcome.
It's difficult to know if we'redoing a good job of preparing
our students or not without someactual data and feedback.
SPEAKER_35 (30:22):
Professors need more information about the process to
transfer and how to help theirstudents.
SPEAKER_41 (30:30):
More information for students and professors about
how each course satisfiesrequirements in a four-year
degree program.
SPEAKER_29 (30:37):
Bachelor's College faculty also made statements on
the survey regarding specificinformation they wanted about
transfer.
SPEAKER_06 (30:44):
A full-time, not yet tenured faculty member said,
I've never received any trainingor information about transfer
outcomes or advising or servicesavailable to transfer students
that I didn't seek out on my ownin response to a student
question.
In two years of working as afull-time employee at my
college, or in seven years ofbeing a graduate student
(31:06):
employee at CUNY, I do thinkthat intensive continual
training for new graduatestudents, adjuncts, and anyone
else employed in first-yearwriting programs could make a
big difference because weinevitably work with so many
transfer students at thebeginning of their time in a
bachelor's degree program.
I don't want this to become yetanother uncompensated job that
(31:28):
adjuncts are forced to take onas part of what they do.
But I do think thatunderstanding the labor piece of
this equation is critical.
As someone who will one day leadthe first year practicum, I
would also love to have a lotmore information than I do to
pass along to first-time,first-year composition
instructors or other people whohave taught first-year
(31:52):
composition before they have totake practicum.
SPEAKER_24 (31:57):
And finally, here are some statements from two
part-time adjunct bachelor'scollege faculty.
SPEAKER_03 (32:05):
Many faculty members would like to do more to support
vertical transfer students, butsome faculty don't know where to
start due to lack of informationabout what these students need.
SPEAKER_19 (32:17):
Instructors should have information about the
specific needs of transferstudents and clear information
about resources that can helpthem.
SPEAKER_25 (32:25):
A few things really stuck out to me and what the
faculty are asking for.
They want digestibleinformation.
They want qualitative andquantitative data and training.
They want to be able to trackstudents during and after
transfer.
And they want clear informationabout resources and how courses
(32:47):
actually transfer.
I mean, that all sounds prettyreasonable to me and pretty
maybe easy to get or at leastshare with faculty.
SPEAKER_29 (32:55):
What do you think, Lexa?
I completely agree, Heather.
And I'm happy to report thatsince this survey was conducted
in 2021, CUNY has instituted awebsite called Transfer
Explorer, which is also known asT-Rex, which provides some of
this information.
T-Rex easily shows everyone withno login how all CUNY courses
(33:16):
transfer to all CUNY colleges,including what program
requirements the transferredcredits will satisfy at the new
college.
A national version of TransferExplorer has recently been
released by Ithaca.
So at least some of theinformation that the CUNY
faculty said they wanted, theyare now indeed getting.
SPEAKER_25 (33:34):
Ooh, I love that.
Wow.
I know you and the team behindthe T-Rex system have put in a
massive amount of work over thepast few years to ensure that
it's really robust andtransparent.
And you're setting the bar forsure on what an open and
accessible system should looklike.
So thank you for that.
In fact, I think we could do anentire episode on that project.
(33:57):
So if you're interested, hinthint.
I am, I am.
Oh, yay! So for now, we'll linkto a few T-Rex resources so
folks who are listening can geta little more information and
we'll put those in the shownotes.
Emily, what are you thinking?
SPEAKER_24 (34:13):
Yeah, so lots of things, probably like a lot of
our listeners, but mostly thatfaculty aren't asking for
anything crazy.
And what's really striking to meis that the information they
want probably exists somewherein the system.
They just don't have easy accessto it.
I can't help but think aboutJulie Wong's book on my own.
(34:34):
I know a lot of our listenershave read that and are also fans
of that wonderful work.
But in that, she of course showsthat transfer students are
highly motivated, but navigatingwithout adequate institutional
support.
I think we're seeing the samething with faculty here.
They want to help theirstudents, but they're kind of on
their own, piecing togetherinformation wherever they can
find it, or like we heardearlier, relying on assumptions
(34:57):
to fill the gap.
SPEAKER_25 (34:58):
That parallel really resonates.
I like that.
If students need institutionalsupport to navigate transfer
successfully, faculty do too.
I think that seems like ano-brainer.
So let's talk solutions.
But not today.
Today we are out of time.
I'd love to continue thisconversation in another episode
where we can really delve intohow institutions can actually
(35:21):
close that information gap andbetter equip faculty with what
they need.
SPEAKER_24 (35:26):
Yeah, I think that would be great because obviously
all of us are sitting here likewith so many thoughts.
We want to chime in.
And it's important to hear thosevoices directly.
So I'm game.
SPEAKER_25 (35:34):
Yay! Awesome.
Okay, I'm excited to brainstorm.
Uh Lexa and Emily, thank you forbeing here and for sharing this
research with us today.
We've heard so much in thisepisode.
Faculty perspective on what'sworking, what's not working,
tensions between communitycolleges and bachelor's
institutions, and real gaps inthe information faculty say they
(36:00):
need.
Is there anything else before wewrap up that you want listeners
to know?
SPEAKER_29 (36:04):
Well, first of all, thanks so much for having us do
this, Heather.
This has been great and Emily.
I hope that hearing the quoteshas been interesting and
helpful.
And for listeners who want todig deeper into what faculty are
saying, we encourage you tocheck out our new publication on
the results of the facultysurvey in the Journal of
(36:25):
Post-Secondary Student Success.
Also, our data set with over4,000 faculty responses to the
open-ended questions is alsofreely available in CUNY's
Academic Works repository.
So please explore it and use itfor your own research questions.
SPEAKER_25 (36:42):
Excellent.
I love that.
We'll make sure to link to bothof those in the show notes.
SPEAKER_24 (36:47):
Yeah, and I just also add obviously a huge thank
you to Lexa for leading thiswork and for inviting me into
this conversation and sharingall these quotes.
But I think mostly what I wantto leave with is as I said
before, I hear about negativeattitudes and collaboration
challenges anecdotally all thetime.
But seeing them documented insuch really strong language is
(37:09):
such a powerful reminder to meand hopefully to everybody else
of how important it is toactually ask faculty for input
and give them space to becandid.
You know, talk to your studentsis one of the top pieces of
advice that we give, but we needto make time to hear from
faculty too, even when it'suncomfortable.
SPEAKER_29 (37:27):
And I'd be remiss if I didn't add that we are really
grateful for the support of thisresearch by the Ascendium, ECMC,
Gates, Heckscher, Ichigo,Mellon, and Petrie Foundations,
and also by the Institute ofEducation Sciences.
We're also grateful to CUNY'sOffice of Applied Research,
Evaluation and Data Analytics,CCRC, Ithaca SNR, MDRC, NISTS,
(37:51):
and TransferNation, all of thosefor their collaboration in our
transfer work, and especially,of course, to NISTS and
TransferNation and all ourvolunteer quote readers, who are
amazing, for everything theydid, all of them, to make this
podcast a reality.
SPEAKER_24 (38:09):
Yeah, they did a totally awesome job.
That was so fun.
SPEAKER_25 (38:13):
Truly such a creative episode.
I'm so grateful.
All right, listeners, we want tohear from you.
First, were you surprised bywhat you heard from faculty
today?
Have you heard similarsentiments in your own campuses?
Uh, we just want to know,alternatively, what's one thing
that your campus has done to gettimely, accurate transfer info
(38:37):
to faculty?
Or maybe there's a roadblockthat you're hitting.
We want to know, we want to knowit all.
So send a voice memo or a DM toTransformation.
And thank you so much forlistening.
You are listening to TransferNation Talks.
TransferNation is a community ofeducators and advocates working
to improve the transfer andpost-traditional student
(38:59):
experience and celebratetransfer and community college
as the pathway of success thatit is.
You can join us here every weekor so for conversations on,
well, everything transfer.
From advocate conversationsfocused on grappling with
today's most importanttransfer-centric topics to the
nuts and bolts on transferprogramming services and
(39:22):
building more inclusion fortransfers on our campuses.
To transfer stories and theinside scoop from transfers and
transfer alum.
You can continue theconversation with the community
anytime on Facebook, Instagram,Twitter, LinkedIn, YouTube,
TikTok, and in person at themany events and transfer think
tanks hosted by theTransferNation community.
(39:44):
So be sure to join us on yourfavorite platform as we learn
from and with one another how tobust out of the status quo,
disrupt systemic inequities, andreimagine, reform, renew, and
regenerate educationalopportunities that work for
students, that center thestudent experience of today,
(40:05):
rather than what works best foroutdated and ineffective
processes and procedure.
Until our next conversation fromthe whole Transformation team in
Transfer Community and TransferPride.
See you next time!
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