House Painting into Tech Product | James Hatfield [33] - Transferable Skills

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Transferable skills, skills, skills from Cackle Media.
This is transferable skills. I'm Noah, Michigan.
Today's guest is James Hatfield,who shares his skills journey
from house painting into wearingmany hats within the world of
technology and product. I hope you enjoy, James.
Welcome to the show. Great to have you.
Here I'm grateful to be here, excited to share everything

(00:22):
good, bad and ugly. Things that transfer well and
things that you don't want to transfer that transfer with you
anyways. Oh, that's actually interesting.
We don't talk about that often enough.
Which is what? What are skills that you should
not be transferring over into next roll?
What's your baggage that you'd rather?
Leave on absolutely, because here's the thing, you go with
you wherever, where and everywhere you go.

(00:42):
So you're going to take you withyou.
I've had around so many people and I give this advice like,
remember, you go with you wherever you go.
So it's not always about the green grass on the other side.
You're the problem. Nobody wants to admit that.
Everyone wants to say they're the problem.
The one wants to look at themselves first.
They want to look at everything they can't control instead of
like what they can control. Well, they, you know, the

(01:05):
typically when something keeps going wrong, if there's a way
for somebody to give that feedback and say, well, what's
the common denominator? It's you or this methodology
clearly hasn't worked because you keep trying this practice
over and over. And if it's not yielding
positive results, let's let's figure out from a data
standpoint what isn't working and how to attribute that lack
of success or failure to. Sure, absolutely.

(01:26):
Not everybody wants to take thatownership.
Though Or has people that speak truth of their life because
they're just so proud, you know?Like I found a humility to be a
superpower, right? Oh my God, totally.
And the thing that we all probably don't do enough of is
when you leave an organization, especially if it's not your own

(01:46):
choice and you were given performance feedback, do you do
a postmortem? I would normally say
retrospective, but in this case,it really is a postmortem kind
of thing. And did you, did you take that
feedback to heart or did you take it as an attack on you?
But if you can actually synthesize the information you
were given and, and look at it and say, OK, am I at fault or

(02:07):
what can I do differently the next time in a better way?
It's a great opportunity at yournext role to then reinvent
yourself. If you were perceived as
something in high school, you'reno longer in high school.
Change who you are, how you present yourself and try to be
better at the next. Thing right?
See, pride is like bad breath. Everyone else knows you have it
but you, right? And if you're proud, you have

(02:29):
this wall up where you can't hear or you can't accept or you
can't let somebody challenge you.
You're like the wounds from a friend can be trusted and they
sometimes you have them inside the four walls of your business.
And if you're lucky, if you do, you're really lucky if you
actually have somebody that you can be told the truth too.
And you tell the truth. Like I had a guy, so I picked up

(02:50):
someone else's team. And the first thing I do is I do
like AI look at their background.
And I, I got a guy who was on a performance plan.
And this is a brilliant dude. I mean, I'm like, background
looks great, great education, like goodness gracious, like
what's going on here? And I start going to his
previous land managers and I'm like, Hey, tell me everything
about this guy. That's, and I gathered it.

(03:11):
And our first time, we sat down,like, hello, my name is.
I'm like, I need you to brace yourself because I'm about to
tell you everything. Nobody told you.
And I just went through the list, and I'm like, dude, were
you aware of any of this? No.
No one told me. OK.
How are you feeling? He's like, this is the hardest
first meeting I've ever had in my life.

(03:32):
I'm like, OK, well, you have options.
Let's talk about it. What?
Walk out the door. Just leave when you're on a
performance plan. I don't get fired.
I quit. Yeah, like you could do that or
we can give this the college try.
What do you want to do? It's like I want to give it a
college try. I'm like, all right, then let's
do it. From that moment on, he is just

(03:53):
soared and I'm I can't make thisstuff up.
I'm literally on a golf course in Scotland and I have never met
this person physically face to face.
It was all remote based team. I'm in the middle of beautiful
golf course. Crude Bay.
If you, if you're a golfer, you know, crude Bay like and if you
don't look it up, my goodness, it's one of the most epic golf

(04:15):
courses in the world. There'll be a link in the show.
And I'm swinging on like a box and I hear James Hatfield.
And literally I thought so. Like, uh oh.
I thought, oh, like nobody knowsme.
I'm in Skyland, Yeah. So I, I literally think like, I
was like, there's got to be an emergency.
It's the pro coming after. You the pro, like about to

(04:37):
deliver, like you got to get an airplane because your wife died
or something ridiculous. Oh, Josh, you know, like, what
else would somebody be yelling my name for?
I'm not that. You know, here he is.
There's there's the guy and he runs up, gives you the biggest
hug and was epic. What was he doing there?
Playing golf with his brother. In he was in the country to play
golf. You were also in the country and

(04:58):
happened to be on the same. Course first meeting.
Ever. And at the same at the same
hole. Yeah, like he was.
That's insane. Was insane.
I think that the the likelihood of that ever happening would
actually lead me to assume it's not you, and I would probably
never say anything even if it wasn't.
He he yelled at as loud as he could.
He knew it ran up and but I mean, our first meeting and nail

(05:22):
right in the face. I'm like, here's what we're
going to attack or run away from.
What's radical candor? You were transparent with him
and honest from from day one. And you, you built that report
and, and and the trust. Can we just say the truth?
I know it's the truth will get you killed sometimes but like.
Well, why don't you? Why do you think that a lot of
those things were hidden from from that individual?
Why I think that maybe pamby land you know it was.

(05:45):
HR and I don't mean to blame HR.What I'm saying is let me
qualify that actually a little bit better.
I'm not blaming HR, it's that weare are so worried about being
sued and so we don't actually give helpful criticism and
feedback always. Sometimes we can and sometimes
we can't. And so they probably felt that
it's easiest when after somebody's performance plan,

(06:06):
part of that is there's like 10 things that are wrong, but we're
going to focus on the one thing that's probably most critical
and directly related to your jobdescription that you are in
control of. If it's something like, hey,
your personality is terrible, unlikely that they can change it
and it's probably an HR problem,But they have all these
different things. They're probably just focusing
on the thing that we need you tocorrect for your, for the
performance of your business, ofyour role.

(06:26):
And if you can't, you have to go.
And that's the reason we're letting you go, even though
there's probably other things that are equally if not.
More important, I mean it. This stuff has gotten me in
trouble. Like when you tell people the
truth, some will love you for itand others will hate you for it.
This is a transferable skill, bythe way.
I think this fits right in the money of what we're talking
about. Take radical candor with you.
Everywhere you go now, there'll be people that love you and will

(06:49):
follow you to the ends of the earth, and they'll be other
people that want to run you everywhere on their truck, and
they'll write it to everybody who knows, right?
Well, that's what Ray Dalio's talking about in his book
Principles, which you and I wereI mentioned to you before the
the show. Is he he, he calls it radical
transparency, which is the same thing.
And they say there are some people that just cannot handle
it, that they operate in their company exactly like that.

(07:12):
And if you can't handle it, you're out by choice probably.
But most of the time, people will appreciate and will benefit
from that honesty. Totally.
I mean, everybody's carrying something, right?
And my wife always laughs because she's like, James,
you're always two or three questions deep with someone.
They start crying on you. I'm like, yeah, Because I, I, I
just get hopped to it. Like if someone looks down,

(07:32):
guess what? I say, hey, you look a little
down. Is there something going on?
Even if they don't know me from anybody, because they can tell I
generally care. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm with you, I'm
with you. You know, I'm not thinking about
the I'm here. I'm, I'm remaining present.
And then that radical transparency candor, even
through courageous questions, you know, like, I love listening

(07:54):
to Chris Voss his stuff, you know?
I never spoke the difference. That is a master class on how to
ask questions. Yeah.
How, how I've read several times.
Yeah, I've. I've listened to it three times.
I mean, learning how to ask powerful, courageous, how and
what questions and keep digging like you will always know who's
in control of a meeting or a organization by who asked the

(08:18):
most questions. And the, and the person asking
the most questions is actually more in the seat of power.
If you want to name it something.
It's always very interesting to me.
So these are some of the things I think are really worth digging
into and getting better at. I'm still constantly challenging
myself to be a better question asker.

(08:40):
I'm challenging myself to be a better listener always.
Yeah, 2 ears, one mouth, right? Yeah, exactly.
Let's let's begin back at the beginning because we jumped into
your career after kind of acquiring A-Team.
What was your first job and whatwere you thinking about doing?
Well, outside of just a little high school jobs.
Well, the high school job I had was I ran.

(09:01):
I don't even really have to bring this up.
I ran a karate school. I don't know if you see it by my
head. There's a bunch of weapons.
I can barely. Oh yeah, I see.
There's a bunch of weapons up there.
Shotokan. Okinawan old school karate, old
school old school karate, OGOG karate.
And I taught karate school and for this guy who owned the

(09:21):
business and he had me run all the classes, run the summer
camps. So I got a front row seat and it
was a small business and he poured into me, right.
And but from there previous, previous to that, my
grandfather, his dad died young and he had himself made me and
he actually had to drop out of high school and go get a job to
put food on the table. Wow, as a 16 year old, Can you

(09:42):
imagine? And then my father's father died
young and so they came from nothing.
My dad wanted me to be a plumberand my grandfather wanted me to
be a painter. And so right when I graduated
high school, I opened up a painting company.
I learned how to paint a house the right way.
And you know, I built 2 crews out of that put put money in my

(10:03):
pocket. And then eventually I was like,
I probably need to really understand the numbers.
Like that's where I was weak. I was strong in leadership,
strong in sales, strong in a lotof areas, but very weak on the
numbers. And so at that time, 20 plus
years ago, state school was affordable.
So I was like all right, I'm going to go to state school a
while. I run my company so I can learn
this and I did. What does it mean when you say
you know how to paint houses theright way?

(10:25):
It means I took the time to get around someone who's been doing
it a long time. And there's a process to paint
the house right way. Like first start by washing it
and wash it the right way. You wash the house before you
paint it right? And why?
Because you need that dirt to come off and so that paint will
adhere to what you're painting. You need to wash the house

(10:46):
properly the right way and make sure it's super clean before you
get to work on that. And a lot of painters miss that.
In fact, just cut corners, right?
And also it costs money, you know, and they want their bids
to be less. I mean, I can go off on
painting, power washing, I mean,all day long.
That's where it started paintingcompany, which led to a power
washing company. And that was just a
happenstance. We were literally painting
somebody's house. And the neighbor walks over

(11:07):
like, I don't need a house painting, but could you power
wash this, your power washer sitting there and I'll send the
guy over. And it was the margins were
great, The speed was great. And you know, we're to the
South, so it gets darn hot. And live your life on the
ladder. It's a perfect opportunity to
shout out to Brandon Siwa, who is the one who introduced us.
Brandon, I know from years past working in home services and

(11:27):
marketing and and lead generation was a a long time
customer of our company. He's such a great guy.
He's got his own podcast that weshould give a shout out to off
the Ladder. He talks to a bunch of different
entrepreneurs and business owners and, and practitioners
within home services and he's the one who put us in touch.
And so if you're out there and you want to hear more about
understand the insurance and outs of what it's like to to run

(11:49):
a home services business has gota great podcast out.
There he does, he's fabulous. He's Absolutely Fabulous.
You know, painting company put myself through school and then
magic happened after that because when I, as I graduated,
I met my now partner of, you know, 20 plus years of business
and he was, he has a landscapingcompany, laundromats, and he was
finishing up his school And what, what he built at his when

(12:11):
I was in school and right out ofit was this financial
technology. You could take an income
statement balance sheet and feedit.
Remember, I went to state schoolbecause I went to learn numbers.
So we got interconnected that way.
And then he built this thing andhe's like, you want to partner
up and you sell it. Sales is a strong part of, I
mean, I love doing creating and building things and managing and

(12:31):
all that good stuff. But you know, so I was like,
well, let's give it a RIP. You know, I've been, I'll stop
playing with water guns and start seeing if we can't build a
software company. So that was my first major
transfer from home services based company owner to all right
now I'm going to go sell technology.
And then we're really one of America's first financial
technology companies, like over 20 plus years ago.

(12:52):
And we took that from nothing toan Inc 500 company, which means
you're the fastest growing companies in the country.
And then now it's a multi billion dollar company and we
had an exit with KKR. How long were you in house
painting, pressure washing in that business?
Probably at least 6-7 years. Yeah.
Did you stay in home services after that or did you move on

(13:12):
outside of home? Services, no, that's when I went
to the financial technology company.
The product was built with home service people in mind.
We just indirectly had the Cpas and now it's banking software
for loans. So it turned, it eventually
evolved into loan software because we collected private
company data, you know. You know in the financial side
of it, when you're providing a software services to companies

(13:35):
that you can relate to because you are running one like that,
the ones that you're serving, how does your experience
influence both your product roadmap but also how you engage or
understand your? Customers, it influences
everything even today, like every because that's where I
come from. Those are my roots.
Like I used to go to the bookkeeper and be like, they're
speaking English, but I don't know what they're saying.
And that's why I'm like, I got to learn this because that's my

(13:57):
money. You know, I went back to school
and now I can read an income statement and balance sheet and
tell you if you're full of it ornot.
Like just give me your, give me your audit and I'll tell you if
you're for real, right? And that's talk about a skill
that's transferable. But we wanted to put that power
into the hands. Hey, put your income statement
balance sheet in this and we will give you an unbiased report

(14:19):
of like what how you're really doing.
It will compare you to other people.
So that was powerful. A lot of small businesses like
that. They either don't have the
resources, the solutions that will give them that data.
How do you position the value ofthe services and why it's so
important and needed when running a business to a small

(14:40):
business that might not have been looking for that service or
well, how do you how do you address the push back of I'm not
sure if I can afford it or if it's worthwhile or I'm too busy
doing the job. It's like the difference between
working in the business versus working on it, and you got to
convince somebody sometimes thatyou need to be working on the.
Business. Well, it's hard to explain how
delicious vanilla ice cream is until you actually eat it.

(15:00):
You got to eat it. Like I could tell you, watch me
smile. Eat it, man.
Like I until until when you knowyour numbers.
Yeah, like when you really know your numbers, you're going to
know. But until then, like, I can only
tell you how great vanilla ice cream is.
Like once you know your numbers,you're going to be.

(15:22):
It's going to open up things younever thought about.
Also, it's the truth of your business.
Like if you not want to know thetruth of your business, I mean,
we can just lie to each other, that's fine.
You know, like ignorance is bliss, last I heard.
So remain ignorant, you know, maybe it's better that way.
Don't take the red pill. Don't find out what the matrix
is like? Fine.
The blue pill will keep you in denial for a long time because

(15:43):
you're ignoring the information that's actually imperative.
If you need empirical data, you got to.
You got to understand you have to have access to it.
Not only will that give you the vitals of your business, but
it'll also allow you to see information that gets you
curious, to ask questions that might lead to business and
product innovation and growth. You got it.

(16:04):
You got to know the information or to.
Ask you need to become that leads you data obsessed if you
ever how do I grow like if you start like how data obsessed are
you like? Do a time of motion study on how
fast a guy can paint a house. It helped me decide to buy paint
sprayers back in the day when they first started coming out.
It was just a mathematical decision, like we were rolling
and hand brushing. And then it was the paints very

(16:26):
started coming out and now we screwed up a bunch at beginning
because it's a new tool. We actually, you don't want to
get paint on a roof. Oh my God.
Oh God, yeah, we did that. You don't want to put the wrong
paint because you're painting sofast.
Like we painted a house and I was doing a walk around and I'm
looking at it with the owner, like this house is shining like
a diamond. He's like, yeah, I kind of
noticed that gloss, but my guys painted.

(16:47):
Yeah, gloss paint. But they painted on a cloudy day
with gloss paint that they didn't like.
It was a problem the the paint, Yeah, they didn't see.
They didn't bother reading it. And they were moving fast
because now we got the guns and.I'm told reading is fundamental.
You know, there's a learning curve to all this stuff, but
also think about the, the lossesof that learning curve.
Whatever you had to mitigate that, that those that learning

(17:09):
curve and what it cost you it, it has been far exceeded no
question by the performance and the efficiencies and
productivity of this new technology.
Yeah. So get to know your numbers.
If you're not going to at least get a bookkeeper and get help
there. Don't, don't just, you know,
shove the receipt somewhere and run off an Excel spreadsheet
like it's, I understand that's how you start.

(17:30):
That's how I started. But it's not going to grow your
company to where you want it to be, guaranteed.
I, I find it funny and curious the way you said state school
sounds like, like you don't feellike it's as good.
I would actually argue the opposite.
Very good value ROI on your education.
So the reason I'm bringing that back up is because you went
there to understand and get education surrounding finances

(17:53):
and data and making yourself a little bit more financially
savvy. Do you think without that
education that you were somebodythat was always kind of driven
or curious by data before you had maybe the learning to attach
to it? Oh, yeah.
I mean, I'm, I'm a data addict, at least now.
But, you know, looking backwards, I didn't know how
addicted to the data I was, right?

(18:15):
Because I was just at the blocking and tackling, getting
the house pressure washed or painted and, you know, going
door to door and getting the money and, you know, responding
to inbounds and all that good stuff.
And I was so focused there. But then I could tell my
weakness and that's when I was like, OK, so I got to do
something about this. Even we were talking earlier, I
love the stock market. I can, I can look at just give
me your numbers. You don't have to tell me the

(18:36):
name of the company or what it does, you know, and I'll either
get interested or not. Just give me your stats.
Can data? Can data addiction become
counterproductive at any point? I mean, there's analysis
paralysis, yeah, sometimes you're going to have to make a
play call. It can help predict the future,
but it isn't the future, you know, like and in the past is
the past or in the moment. So you, you can be paralyzed by

(18:59):
data, but I think most people are just underfed data wise.
I'm just like, yeah, just let when we get to that point, we
let's work on that problem. We got the other problem.
Nowadays people are just kind of, you know, they, they don't
put an extra effort there. Well, I'll use that analogy data
fed to use this one, which is you can wonder why you're

(19:19):
gaining weight. And when you get the data by
reading the nutrition facts on the label, it doesn't mean
you're going to lose weight because you have access to that
data. It's what do you do now with
that data to course? Correct.
That's right. Like there's a thing today of a
guy who lost a ton of weight eating McDonald's for every meal
for 100 days. And what?
What? Yeah, Well, what you can find
out is he ate 1/4 of the portionor half the portion.

(19:40):
And even him, he's like, I should eat healthier but I lost
the weight because of how much of it I actually ate.
OK. And also, so there's data that
was presented, there was data that was left out.
And amongst that data that was left out was not just portion
control, but it was also about what other things is he doing in
that day or in his life that's adding to his weight loss.

(20:01):
Yeah, you, I don't know if how transparent that it was.
Pretty like he didn't exercise. He drank 90 ounces of water and
he's like, he attributes it to the water.
Water's good portion control andwhat he put in like just even
though the what he put in he self acknowledged like this is
not quality food. Hydration is huge as well.
Yeah, yeah. A lot of times people people

(20:22):
just attribute a lot of the weight loss to portion control
and that's literally not changing any other behavior.
It just it. I don't know how we got here,
but we. We got here because of data.
Let's go. Data Guy loses weight to
McDonald's. Let's go.
Data to weight loss advice on onthe Transferable Skills podcast.

(20:43):
So the next round, actually don't talk about this round too
much, was my stint in a clinicalcompany and I was able to be an
intrapreneur, meaning they'd give me a bunch of cash and I
get to go build stuff. That's the only way they could
keep me. I'm not a big company person.
I'm a bit of a cowboy. And I know you can relate to
this story, you know as well, but I got to build tech like I

(21:06):
got to breathe things into like my ideas becoming products and
those products becoming real andthen people getting real value.
I won't spend too much time on that part of the journey because
I, I got back with my partner and because he's like, all
right, I found a company insteadof starting from scratch like we
did the first round, we purchased a company that's 16
years old out of Vancouver and we joined them.

(21:28):
And my transferable skill was I actually started in the product
area first. So I was the product officer and
I came in and started to learn atechnology called Web RTC, web
real time Communication, which Ihad never really heard of.
And I was like, I'll just learn it, you know, just like going
back to school, I'll just learn the numbers.
Oh my web RT, these guys are speaking English to me as well.
I was like, I have 0 idea what you're saying, like 0 you know?

(21:53):
Yeah, I'm told this is English, but none.
Of this but I had to just hard knock life I'm in there with the
engineers all of a sudden I'm leading engineers and understand
more about the product and I gota chance at that time to work
with the chief of police of Washington DC to reinvent the
911 phone call. And the challenge was, how do
you go from a phone call? Now, the worst part of your

(22:15):
phone is a phone because it's ona technology called telephony.
It's ancient. It sucks, all right, but that's
what we use. How do I go from that phone call
and then tap into your cameras? Because these cameras are liquid
gold for police officers becauseas a citizen, you can just point
the camera and stream that to the police car, fire truck,
emergency medical. It's called situational
awareness. And so I had a aha moment like

(22:35):
at 3:00 in the morning when I was like, I got it like, no
apps, frictionless. And we have this ability to send
a text and transition from a text to video.
So now when you call, you get a text, you can tap it, don't have
to download anything, and now I've got access to your cameras
and I can stream it anywhere, point to point on the globe.
So the consumer, or the citizen in this case is electing to give

(22:58):
you. Access has to that there's a
safety. Because that there's a whole
privacy and safety thing, right?Consumer protection.
Exactly. They have full control of that.
But once they say yes, we're in,right.
So I was like, well, this is interesting.
Who else could use this? Yeah.
So I meet with the guy who takescare of Tennessee Titans
football team, NFL, 20 years in the FBI, and I'm showing the

(23:19):
emergency stuff and he's like, James, this all looks well and
good for emergency, but I got this stupid question for you.
Like lay it on me. He's like this arena here in
Nashville is huge. And I have to hop in my golf
cart a lot to go see one of my team members.
He's like, can I just send a text to one of my guys even like
when the trash cans fall over and he can just show me so I
don't have to hop in my golf cart and I can tell him what to
do. I'm like, oh, yeah.

(23:39):
And that was my Eureka it because then all the way back to
my service based business, I remember having Nextel
walkie-talkie, you know, sittingat the Waffle House.
It was the coolest thing. And I was like, Yep.
And then you start talking and Iwas like, wait a second, this is
like the Nextel walkie-talkie but for your eyes.
Wow, yeah, it's immediate. It's immediate connection,

(24:00):
immediate eyes on quality. Control.
Oh my goodness, it's it. Doesn't matter what the
application is, anybody who needs eyes on anything for
either instruction, tutorial, quality control or just
verification of of something that took place.
Conditional environmental solution that it's the solution
for. That when the NFL came out with
the instant replay, could you imagine if they got rid of the
instant replay right now? Cuz you said no, it's only live

(24:22):
calling how pissed so many people would be, especially the
ones that are on DraftKings and stuff.
How pissed off they would be if they just left it to that.
They're not getting rid of the instant replay.
What I, what I'm saying now is you can bring the instant replay
into your business in to end in to end from selling to operating
to follow up. And as a business owner, I
always wanted eyes on everything, but I couldn't.

(24:43):
There's no physically has no wayto do that.
But now I can review every salescall, review every engagement
before and afters customer testimonies, post op everything.
I get eyes on everything as a business owner.
And that transparency level is good for my team as well.
And me reducing claims. It's like helping me see the
problems, helping me coach and train, and it's keeping my

(25:04):
customers safe if I have a team member who's not doing so hot,
you know? But this level of shiny light on
it is game changing. That's literally what you did in
that first meeting with that employee on the team who who was
on a performance plan. No one's ever given him the
data. No one's ever given him the

(25:25):
information that was necessary that he needed in order to
improve. And so that there's the trust
that's confidence, but then there's also just the data
integrity of knowing. Now I have information.
I it's not, it's, it's no longersubjective.
This is objective data. That's right.
And it's going to separate the winners and losers.
If you find that you're scared of this or your team is scared

(25:45):
of this, somebody's hiding something, right?
Do you consider yourself a product guy?
Half of me is a product guy. Yes, 100%.
When someone asks what you do, how do you answer the question?
Well, I remember first meeting like when we purchased the
company, I started getting to know the founder and he's like,
what do you want to do? Like, well, I can clean the
toilet so I can run the show. I'm just going to go where I'm

(26:07):
needed, you know, like that's I'm an owner.
That's what you're getting. I'm an owner.
Unless I'm not willing to listenand not willing to really get
into it, then I believe I can learn most anything.
Some stuff that might be beyond me, might be beyond my talent,
you know, but I'd, I just, I'll get my hands dirty.
I live my life up in the air on the ladder.

(26:28):
Like where did I learn to paint a house best on the ladder with
the paint sprayer? I taste the vanilla ice cream
and then I, you know, I'm, I'm in it, I'm in it, you know, so,
but I am a definitely probably the, the product we sell here,
you know, came up with that. Someone with a creative mind and
ambition but also maybe curiosity, growth minded.

(26:48):
How do you keep yourself focusedon this versus jumping to the
next shiny thing that that emerges or emerges in your
brain? I.
Can get this little thing calledhelp from a friend.
Yeah, this is what my partner and I wrestled the grass all
time. His thing always for me, if he
could give me one word, it's always focus, focus, focus.
I'm interested in a lot of things.
When I stay focused, I can really blow things up in a good

(27:10):
way. But I I do struggle with with
that. What's what?
You must have a method of practice for disciplining your
focus. What is that?
Help. Really, it is.
It is. It's a reminder.
I Is it accountability? Is it somebody telling you
you're not focused on? It's accountability.
It's my numbers, you know, like what's my most important number?

(27:32):
Am I focused on it? You know, and it changes
whatever role I'm in because I've changed roles in our
company like 1820 times. Like it, it changes like all the
time. You know, I never get too cozy.
But when I'm in it, what's my most important number that I'm
focused on, right? Like if I'm running product, how
many bugs did we squash this week?
If I'm in sales, how much cash should I put in the bank?
You know, this month, You know, if I'm and everyday even has the

(27:55):
most important number, how many reach outs did I do?
How many connection points? Like it's staying focused there
because I, I, I do a lot. I've got nonprofits that I've
created from nothing. I'm sitting on nonprofit boards.
I'm doing technology. I've got 4 kids, like I mean
always something and I'm curiousin all of it.
I love it all, you know, like you can find me sitting playing

(28:15):
a guitar like you do, or creating new technology or side
building projects for people or like I just, yeah, I'm a, I'm a
like a squirrel, I guess. What's your relationship with
sleep? Not great, although it's one of
my things I've been working on. That's one of the things I
really been working on. Like I some of my best ideas

(28:36):
have happened two or three in the morning.
I just get out of bed, come downon my iPad and start drawing and
sketching things out. I can show you original sketches
for like even stuff we had were our products today.
But I'm working on it. I'm not good at it.
I'm not good at it. I think that might be fine
though. If it's working for you, it's
not coming at us at a cost or the cost is not that great, then

(28:58):
maybe it's fine. Yeah, I'm just trying.
I'm trying to make a lot of goodhealth changes and choices now.
More water, more steps, more sleep.
Portion control and water, I think that's.
A full circle, back-to-back to. It all goes back to that.
It's a big journey going from running a home service painting

(29:20):
company into technology and product, and I think there's
been a bunch of things that you've named as some of your
powers, some of your strengths, your skills.
What other super powers would you say that you attribute your
success? Things that have worked for you?
Yeah, So this is the transferable skill from day one.
I'm not scared to get in front of a door and knock on it.

(29:41):
Sometimes it never opens. Sometimes it opens and people
yell and slam it closed. Sometimes they step out and they
listen to you. And then finally, sometimes they
actually become a customer, right?
And I don't focus on the nose. I expect the nose.
I expect, I expect the nose, butI hold on to the yeses and I

(30:02):
only need 2 yeses a day, just two, just two yeses.
I need 2 yeses. And so my most important number
right now talking about focus isI want two people to agree to
meet with me everyday who are strangers or are referred from.
I get referred to, right? I want 2 a day.
And how I do this in an industrylike I just stepped into the

(30:23):
restaurant industry that I know zero about zero.
And I'm sitting there talking like Subway and Panera execs
about like what we talked about earlier, right?
How to get rid of throughput andreimagining that.
How did I get in front of these people?
How did I go from being a nobodyin the moving industry to
leading a conference last week or people are paying $100 a
ticket. And I had the most famous of

(30:43):
mover in the moving industry up there on virtual stage with me.
And I've only been in that industry for a year and a half.
I was a flea on a dog and this guy wouldn't even return my
calls until he was on a virtual stage.
The first time he met was on a virtual stage.
Wild, right? How do we do that?
And how is this important? And what is a superpower?
Superpower is going to a little site called LinkedIn.

(31:07):
OK. And I know for some of folks are
like, oh, no, like you just you just hit, you just hit stop.
You know, like I'm done with this podcast, right?
They they assume you're looking for the synergy.
Right. Oh, this.
Oh yes, let me use a bunch of corporate words, right?
So here's what you do. Go and get a nice photo of
yourself, like do a professionalheadshot.
That's first step. Second step on your banner, make

(31:28):
it look nice. Don't make it look janky and
like you got a box of crayons. Like get something nice up
there. Put your history and you're
about OK. Then what you're going to do is
everyday only, only up to 20, everyday up to 20 blind connects
in your industry. First start with your industry.
The more local start off great and you can do that and just hit

(31:51):
the connect button. Do nothing else.
No love notes, no pitching, no nothing.
Just hit the connect button. That's it.
That's all you have to do to start with.
And then you do one other thing once a week, post something of
value. And something of value can be
literally a photo of what you worked on before and after a
video of your team, like something you learned from your

(32:12):
book you read, you know, or an article.
Share one thing a week. OK, so you're going to connect
and share. Here's what's going to happen in
the beginning. Some brave souls, one out of 20
or two out of 20, will just hit accept.
I don't know. They just do.
All right. People like to be wanted and
it's it's and it's what it is. All right.
Then after a while you're in theindustry and you hit the connect

(32:32):
button. Like I'll hit a connect button
with someone and we'll have 350 mutual connections.
What do you think that person isthinking?
Yeah, I must have met this person somewhere.
At the very least, this person is somebody I should know.
Exactly. No ones feel a little dumb like
I know this guy, you know? How do I they actually feel
insecure because they're they assume they met you somewhere
and can't remember you now it's their fault.
Exactly. So then, but then they know it's

(32:54):
just me, like 100 mutuals, 200 mutuals.
And then go ahead. And also like the vendors, don't
worry, not everyone's trying to be a vulture and get your money,
but vendors get in front of a lot of your competition, just so
you know, and then get in in directly with people.
So now you're going to adjacent industries, OK, And watch
what'll happen. You might, they might even

(33:15):
invite you on stage. It's what they did for me.
They might not even they might have you fly out to talk.
It's incredible. Put yourself out there and I
guarantee, I can always guarantee this, that you will
get a new connection that you never would have had that
changes your business game or new customers.
Like I've, I've made thousands and thousands of dollars doing

(33:37):
this and I'm not special and I'mnot that good looking and you
know, I talk a lot. So there you go.
If, if I can do it, you can do it.
But you've got to do that daily.It's a daily muscle.
Like you're going to the gym or whatever.
Just, you know, make that happenand thank me later.
That is, that is a superpower. Thanks for sharing that because

(33:57):
it, it is consistent with everything you said about
knowing the data, needing accessto it and, and being true and
consistent about that. It's the same thing as anything
in sales. If you know that you need to
close to a day, whether that's new connections or sales, it
doesn't matter what we're talking about.
If you need to close to a day, you know statistically you're
not going to be shooting 100%, right?

(34:17):
So what is your typical conversion rate on whatever it
is we're talking about? And now back it out there.
So what is the number that you need to first of all, reach out
to, to solicit in order to expect a conversion, an average
of the number that engage into aclose.
And so for you in, in connectingin the industry and, and making
connections and establishing yourself that lead to either

(34:38):
speaking opportunities, engagement or just connection
that you want all these things, you're opening doors because
you're treating your social network and no differently than
you do the discipline and the data-driven process of your
sales and your business. On average, I meet 2 new
strangers a day and we spend usually 30 minutes to an hour

(34:59):
together. And sometimes we start texting,
sometimes we come friends, sometimes we do stuff together
like that was where I was from. And then they start introducing
you to people. That's How I Met Noah.
Yeah, I got. That's exactly How I Met you.
I mean this it worked. Here we are.
Here we are. And that, that's just, this is
what it is. And of course, I, I try to make

(35:21):
myself worth something of value by reading, right, by getting
with two strangers a day, by having experiences to share,
right, You become a somewhat interesting person, at least.
Maybe I'm drinking my own kool-aid here.
But like this is if you're happy, you know, this is
something I've learned and I want to end with because I think

(35:42):
it'll change someone who actually does it, Which, oh
goodness, how many people are not going to do it and then
complain. You know, I'm like, I'm giving
you the answer to the test and then you're going to get in
front of customers who gave me the answer to test for the
technology that we built the police to the FBI to the self
storage guy to the mover to. Here we go.

(36:04):
Yeah. I mean, you can trace back the
bread crumbs to what led you to where you are today and the
success that you've had. It's attribution, be able to
take that data and know where the source is, the origination
of that source. It's.
The modern day knocking of doorsthat I where I.
Start. Well, I, I got to ask one more
thing because you brought it up,well, you sort of brought it up.

(36:27):
This process is very hard data-driven, you know,
conversion that leads to sales to growth and maybe even
speaking engagement etcetera, etcetera.
And then a good portion of this is surrounding soft data.
Is there a way to track soft data and is there a way to value
it because you know that it doesactually lead to the hard data
results? Before I answer that, I'm going
to answer a question. How do you define soft data?

(36:48):
For those listening, how would you define?
OK, great. Thank you for asking that
question. Allow me to define it so you
understand why I'm asking this question.
So making connections on LinkedIn, that's hard data.
I know exactly how many I I solicited.
Having a conversation with somebody, be it 10 minutes or an
hour long, connecting with them and texting with them, having
great conversation that you enjoyed, that to me is soft

(37:11):
data. It hasn't LED anywhere yet, but
you have to understand like the quality of a conversation is
somewhat subjectively soft data.Is this was this a meaningful
connection or not? Yeah.
I mean, well that depends on you, right?
That it what you can't control. For sure, right?
It is subjective, but how do youlook at all of this from the
soft data standpoint when hard data is so compelling?

(37:34):
Soft data can also, but I don't know how you look at it.
Yeah. I mean, there's a certain part
of soft data is tricky. It's subjective.
In this case, making connectionswith people, it's who you are,
the stories of your past, what you represent, what you believe
in, what you're focused in on, how well you listen, your
questions, your human connectionabilities, your emotional EQ.

(37:59):
These are the tough building blocks, right?
And like, not everybody has that.
How do you get that? Well, go get rejected a lot,
man. Like go get hung up on go like
see where things lead, right? You might be naturally gifted at
this where you're just, everybody loves you and they
just, you know, they're, they want you to meet everyone.
They want to do business with you.
They want all this. And then if you find, man, I

(38:20):
don't get referred to anybody. I don't get any business.
You go with you everywhere you go.
This is where we started the podcast.
Get some feedback. Call a person who never called
you back. Hey, I know you never called me
back. Why not?
Maybe some brave soul will tell you the truth.
Oh, you talk too much. Most.
Most won't, but then maybe they you.
Just need one or two brave people and usually it's your
family and friends who can. You can start there, you know.

(38:41):
But not always. Not always.
Sometimes. Sometimes because they have such
a bias opinion because of the nature of that relationship,
they're more protective and worried the the thing you're
asking them for their feedback and criticism about.
Sometimes they will be honest and sometimes you do need that
impartial judgement from an unbiased source, a third party,
somebody who has nothing at stake and will be honest.

(39:02):
With you, That's true, strangers.
I don't know. Yeah, a little bit of both.
It could be. Maybe you can grow in it.
Yeah, and maybe soft data is actually hard data that has yet
to be understood. So all that's of the the
quality. So I'm thinking of like soft
data about like, oh, this is a great conversation.
So subjectively, I really enjoyed that hour long
conversation with you. And it's soft data until it

(39:24):
becomes like extrapolated and and synthesized into hard data.
So for instance, it might might be sentiment and tone.
It's if I can track that conversation and eventually
attribute it to a success down the road that that led to an
introduction here, which led to some success metric in the
future and a favorable outcome then.
Now let me go back and figure out attribution scales and and

(39:47):
metrics associated with that soft subjectivity, the quality
of that conversation that I could then learn from in order
to get other similar results that were favored.
Reminds me of how comedians, youknow, they go and they test all
the material at low budget places and then totally.
Combine all the best things about getting the real laugh and
then they go. On the tour right right that

(40:08):
laugh is is hard data, but it's it's subjective to it's soft and
hard data together it's it's thenumber of laughs you get anytime
you get an applause that's. That is, yeah, that's data.
That's there's here's your data coming back at you.
And so I think for for what are the takeaways for any listeners,
right. One, learn to ask great
questions. We reference like the Chris Voss
book, the how and the what questions and then learn how to

(40:29):
tell good stories, right, that aren't dragging too long, but
are engaging. And how do you know if it's a
good story judged by your your audience, right?
And if you can collectively comeup with these great stories, you
know, with great questions, you've become this interesting
person, right, That you know, you're engaging.
Hopefully they're all true. Like the best stories are the
true ones, right? Like you're not just making up

(40:50):
fairy tales, but like today on the podcast, right?
I just, I just told different stories of my life.
All true, you know, and hopefully you know I've learned
something through them. But by me sharing my stories
with you, you draw out just likeas we listen to other people's
stories and then you can tell other people's stories too, you
can borrow the stories. Oh, I heard someone telling this
or someone doing that, like the McDonald's story we talked
about. So we're back to McDonald's

(41:11):
again, so. Yeah, there's a there's a theme
here. Are you hungry?
If you weren't before, there's got to be soon.
Yeah, this is great. This has been a fantastic
conversation. It was obvious from our
introduction, our discovery callthat we had a little while back
that this was going to be a great conversation because, you

(41:32):
know, you and I, we have a lot of overlapping interest.
But but more importantly, it's that curiosity.
And I think that's what draws usto conversations like this.
Is this the natural curiosity about the individual, but also
the data. And the data in this case is,
you know, what did it take to get you here?
What, what were those steps? And for me, that is the value
that I hope is being imparted onour audience listenership, is

(41:56):
that they can, they can take away some of this stuff that's
relatable and some of that stuffthat's inspirational.
Love it, thanks for having me. That's great to have you.
Thank you for being here. I want to thank Brandon Sewell
for recommending James as today's guest and to you, our
listeners, for joining us on this episode of Transferable
Skills. Remember, the skills you've
gained can take you anywhere. Until next time, keep exploring

(42:16):
those transferable skills.

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House Painting into Tech Product | James Hatfield [33]

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