August 25, 2025 • 32 mins
In this episode of TransformEd with StepUp, we sit down with Dr. Mike Schmoker — former teacher, administrator, and nationally recognized author of Focus and Results Now.
Dr. Schmoker shares the disconnect he saw early in his career between teacher preparation programs and the actual needs of classrooms. He outlines three essential elements schools should prioritize above all else:
- Clear curriculum guidance — what to teach and when.
- Structured instruction — with regular checks for understanding.
- Literacy — purposeful reading, discussion, and writing across subjects.
The conversation explores how leaders can simplify professional development, keep staff focused on proven practices, and monitor implementation for real results. Dr. Schmoker closes with his perspective on the future of education — noting both encouraging momentum in phonics instruction and the stubborn persistence of ineffective practices.
Whether you’re a classroom teacher, principal, or district leader, this episode offers practical guidance to cut through the noise and focus on what works.
Resources:
Madeline Hunter Instructional Model
Sold a Story Podcast Series (Emily Hanford)
If Literacy is a Priority, Why Do We Cling to the Wrong Practices? EduWeek Article
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Welcome to
SPEAKER_01 (00:04):
Transform Ed with Step Up.
We want to build the knowledgebase of instructional leaders.
We aim to transform educationhere.
Let's
SPEAKER_00 (00:23):
get into it.
Welcome to Transform Ed withStep Up, the podcast that brings
clarity and actionable insightto the heart of education.
I'm your host, ValerieMontgomery.
And I'm Shauna Stefanczyk.
And today we're joined bysomeone whose work has
(00:45):
transformed how we think aboutinstruction, literacy, and
leadership in schools.
Dr.
Mike Schmoker is a formeradministrator, English teacher,
and football coach who hasbecome one of educators' most
influential voices.
He's the author of Thank you somuch for being with us this
(01:09):
morning, Dr.
Schmoker.
SPEAKER_03 (01:30):
You're so welcome.
Great to be with y'all.
SPEAKER_00 (01:33):
So you have been a teacher, a coach, an
administrator.
Now you're an author and aconsultant.
Can you share a little bit ofhow your journey and how you
ended up here and what led youto focus on the simplicity in
schools?
SPEAKER_03 (01:50):
Yeah, you know, almost from the time I became
interested in schooling andbeing a teacher, which actually
starts, doesn't it, for all ofus in some ways?
when we're in school, when we'rein that K-12 system, when we're
evaluating what's going on,we're evaluating how we're being
taught.
And I can always rememberthinking, you know, there was
(02:10):
some really, really goodteaching we got and some other
teaching that wasn't sowonderful.
And you began to see patternsand what was good and what
wasn't.
And then when I began to gothrough my education courses as
an undergrad and my studentteaching, that was a revelation.
Everything I thought wasabsolutely vital and important
(02:33):
seemed to have very low prioritywhen I began to take ed classes.
Just to give you an example, Iwas taking English teaching
methods.
Now, you would think thatEnglish teaching methods, this
is for secondary, mind you,there'd be plenty of emphasis
and opportunity on becomingbetter at, say, leading
discussions, teaching writing,how to ensure that students know
(02:57):
how to read effectively andanalytically.
Absolutely Absolutely none ofthat was ever even touched on.
It was bulletin boards.
It was making little packetswith crossword puzzles and
activities and things studentscould do in small groups and on
and on.
And then I get to studentteaching, and a mythology unit
(03:18):
that I was helping these twoteachers out with basically
consisted of watching movies,making togas out of sheets,
garlands out of wire hangersthat the kids could wear around
their heads, making fruit saladand calling it ambrosia.
A longer list, you can'tbelieve, a longer list of things
(03:43):
that had nothing to do withbecoming either a better speaker
or writer or reader.
And that was my studentteaching.
So early on, I began to thinkwhat really ought to go on in
classrooms might just bedrastically different than what
than what we're told to do in,say, education classes and, and
(04:04):
I have to say, as well as PD,where I saw just about the same
patterns there as I saw inundergraduate work.
So that I could go on, butthat's kind of, that might give
you that part of the journeythat explains my urgency to
write the books I write.
SPEAKER_00 (04:23):
Yeah.
And you, it sounds like you, yousaw that really early on, even
before you were in theclassroom, you noticed it in
your in your preparationcourses, which I don't know,
Shauna, can you kind of relateto that?
Do you remember some trends ofyour undergrad?
I
SPEAKER_01 (04:39):
remember a lot of busy work because I feel like
that's just our profession ingeneral.
When you talk about tokens, it'slots of busy work.
And then I had the samerealization.
Mine really took place thatfirst year of teaching, which is
why I formed this company too,is I realized day one, I was
underprepared.
I didn't came into a classroomand i didn't know how to teach
(05:02):
kids how to read i'd done tonsof projects to your point on all
these little fun boards and andthen i realized i don't know
phonics and how to teach and soyou know i just resonate with
you as well that's what we'retrying to do with systems and
processes and i've given up thebattle of trying to get a higher
ed to come on board i think wejust have to do it as
(05:23):
practitioners and we have tohelp practitioners take the
bulls by the horn can
SPEAKER_03 (05:27):
i just weigh in to say and i said this to the group
i had a podcast with yesterdayas well.
Your candor and your willingnessto be frank about the gap
between preparation and therealities of being an effective
teacher, we all have to be muchmore frank and detailed about
what we are and aren't getting,or it'll never change.
(05:48):
If enough of us, I think, riseup and say, hey, we really need
your help.
Imagine what would happen if thePD and undergrad teacher prep
community decided to focus onpriorities.
the things we really need.
It would be transformational andit would be swift.
SPEAKER_01 (06:05):
Completely.
And I think that's what's soupsetting is we're trying to do
it.
I've had conversations withpeople when I did new teacher
training in my district andprofessors were like, oh, read
my book.
And I'm like, I'm telling you itdoesn't work because we're left
trying to train them.
So thank you for theempowerment.
We'll keep the
SPEAKER_02 (06:25):
fight.
Oh, good for you.
SPEAKER_00 (06:28):
So let's kind of flip that and And so I think we
all have experienced theovercomplication.
You call it overcomplicatingschool improvement.
So if we flip it and we say,okay, here's what we do need to
focus on, what do you believeare the essential elements
schools should be focusing on?
SPEAKER_03 (06:48):
Well, the three things which I always write
about, and there's not a verystrong argument against these
three.
They're completely unoriginal onmy part.
I just began, you know, overtime you think, well, look over
the landscape.
listen to the people who are themost respected in the field and
for the larger mass ofresearchers and what do they all
agree on.
(07:08):
It well could be that number oneis you having a clear guide as a
teacher about what you need toteach and when.
So that when you arrive as ateacher, there's a little wiggle
room for you to do some of yourown thing.
But in the main, you have aschedule of what to teach and
when.
That very phrase I have stolenfrom like Everything I tout is
(07:32):
stolen by Linda Darlan-Hammond.
That's what a curriculum is.
You know about how much time todevote to it, approximately in
what order and when, and youknow what to teach and you don't
have to lay in bed wondering,what should I be teaching?
In the absence of a curriculum,chaos rushes in.
(07:52):
This is where worksheets,endless fruitless group work
rushes in and innovation uponinnovation that sounds cool, but
has no real impact.
And that's number one.
Number two, structuredinstruction that has, and I
rather than elaborate, I'll justassume people know enough about
this to get it, structuredinstruction.
(08:15):
Most of the time, not all, notall instruction is structured
and taught by the teacher in thefront of the classroom, but a
large amount, perhaps the, I'dsay an easy majority of it, the
teacher teaching the entireclass in small segments and
checking for understandingbetween each segment to see if
(08:39):
most or all of the kids aregetting it.
And if they're not, we reteach.
That simple cycle is somethingalmost every teacher's heard,
but it's never been emphasized.
It wasn't imparted with anythinglike energy and enthusiasm when
most of us were undergrads.
And we don't get enough of it inundergraduate preparation.
(09:02):
Number three, literacy in themost ordinary sense.
Loads of purposeful reading,discussion about that reading,
and writing about that reading.
That should be 80% of theEnglish language arts curriculum
and just about that same amountfor social studies and a huge
chunk of science and some amountof all the other courses as
(09:26):
well.
Those three things, curriculum,effect Effective, structured
instruction most of the time,not all but most.
And number three, literacy inthe most ordinary sense of that
word.
SPEAKER_00 (09:41):
That's music to my ears.
I may have to add in like a claptrack.
Oh,
SPEAKER_03 (09:46):
please, please.
I
SPEAKER_00 (09:49):
don't know how, but
SPEAKER_03 (09:50):
I'll figure it
SPEAKER_00 (09:50):
out.
SPEAKER_03 (09:52):
Yeah, well, go
SPEAKER_01 (09:54):
ahead.
Well, I was going to say, well,we've completely tricked you
into coming on this call toendorse what we do because we We
believe the exact same thing.
And I love that you quoted LindaDarling-Hammond.
I quote, I call Marzano thegodfather, which I think you
mentioned you're friends withhim.
You know him.
SPEAKER_03 (10:11):
Well, sure.
And he has really had as muchinfluence on me as anybody in
helping me to realize curriculumis probably the big one.
SPEAKER_01 (10:19):
Right.
And I did
SPEAKER_03 (10:20):
work.
I worked with Bob and across thehall from him for about eight
months.
SPEAKER_01 (10:24):
I knew you had mentioned that at one point when
you spoke because one time I gotto meet him and I was so
excited.
He said, you really need to geta life.
I said, hey.
SPEAKER_02 (10:35):
People do kind of worship him.
It kind of amazes
SPEAKER_01 (10:40):
him.
I know, it's so funny.
Well, because as a former,instruction's always been big to
me.
So of course I consumed so manyof his books, but guaranteed and
viable curriculum.
And I think the tricky part,because my next question is, how
do we overcomplicate it?
And I'm like, well, I wonderwhat you think about our
(11:01):
approach is I think what happensis I think there's this inner
part.
I mean, there's all thisresearch that says what we
should do.
It's the how for people.
Okay, if I have to have that,how do I do it?
And that's something our companytries to specialize in.
But then also, so let's say wecan get that clear curriculum
because I think that is the biggap.
(11:21):
It's the gap I had.
I walked in and nobody said,hey, here's your curriculum and
what you should teach.
How was that happening?
You know, and that's one thebiggest to me systemic barriers
in our field that we have thisdoor that revolving door that we
don't give that to teachers butthe biggest one we've really
been seeing lately too is withteachers the instruction piece I
(11:46):
mean Madeline Hunter come on shehad it figured out we know more
or less
SPEAKER_03 (11:52):
more or less anyway I mean almost any legit
instructional expert actuallyuses her main terms like check
for understanding, guidedpractice, modeling.
Oh, you know, introducing thelesson.
SPEAKER_01 (12:10):
I was like anticipatory set.
SPEAKER_03 (12:12):
There we go.
Anticipatory set.
SPEAKER_01 (12:13):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (12:15):
She deserves so much credit.
Go on though.
SPEAKER_01 (12:18):
No, she does.
And I guess I just wonder, solet's say, because I think for
our company and many of ourclients who are hopefully
listening to this, we've helpedthem fast track and get their
curriculum there.
You got it we we're dedicated inMissouri to making sure every
teacher walks in knows theirstandards sees them paced but
it's this idea of now structuredinstruction and we're really
(12:41):
struggling if I say kids becauseI'm now old but if these kids
are coming in and they haven'tbeen trained on Madeline Hunter
or knowing instruction it's howdo we as leaders organize and
would you say it's yourprofessional development like
how do we help do you thinkreally fast track to
understanding of what solidinstruction looks like and has
(13:03):
it changed Madeline Hunter withAI
SPEAKER_03 (13:06):
pardon me about AI
SPEAKER_01 (13:08):
oh well and then I just wonder how much our
instructional you know we alwaysanchor back to Madeline Hunter
but then I wonder how thatchanges with the development of
AI because one of the things Ithink that tuggles with it is
people are just throwing kids oncomputers rather than
instructing oh
SPEAKER_03 (13:24):
yeah oh absolutely for what it's worth I just wrote
a piece for education week cameout about two weeks ago called
if literacy i'm sorry i hope iget this title right if literacy
is a priority why do we cling tothe wrong practices and one and
i mentioned this just a shortlitany of the things that are
(13:45):
the real obstacles screen timescreen time almost always
devolves into test prep multiplechoice items read a passage
answer questions about thingslike the main idea or text
structure or cause and effect,those kinds of things, which we
(14:06):
hope I can say, which we knoware antithetical to real
authentic literacy.
They're glorified test prep.
There are so many obstacles togoing right back to what you
said about, say, effectivestructured instruction.
So many obstacles.
(14:26):
The solution to all that issimply show people how to do it.
Teach them no differently than Iwas taught.
Teach them no differently than Iwas.
I played football.
I was an offensive lineman.
Our coach was pretty good atsaying, here's how you do it.
He'd show us one aspect ofeffective offensive blocking.
(14:50):
Then we would do it.
And he'd watch us.
And then he'd say, not quite.
Do it more like this.
And after a few cycles of that,you were way, way better.
better at whatever you weredoing.
I was coached in a total ofabout two hours in how to teach
according to the basicfundamental elements of
effective teaching, which aremake clear to the student what's
(15:16):
being taught and how it will beassessed.
We can call that a learningtarget.
Make that crystal clear.
You double or triple the numberof kids who will succeed on a
lesson if you state that clearlyand simply, simply The shortest
statements are the best.
You double or triple the odds ofthe students meeting that target
(15:37):
if it's made clear at thebeginning and referred back to
and stuck with throughout thelesson.
Then you just, I'm just thinkingof professional development.
You model a lesson one step at atime for teachers that say, now
you guys do that for each other.
Or one of, and after a fewminutes, you might say, one of
(15:57):
you, I might be pick, I'm goingto pick Valerie at random.
Valerie, just come up here anddo one thing for us.
Show one step of how to make apaper airplane.
I literally do this.
Just the one step of making apaper airplane.
Tell us, pretend we're yourstudents.
Tell us how to complete that onestep and then cut us loose for
guided practice.
Always, always give us a timelimit or we'll sit there and
(16:21):
gape and stare and dither.
Give us a time limit.
And during that guided practice,Valerie, you walk around and you
see how well we're doing on thatparticular step.
And if we're not doing it right,what do you have to do?
Reteach.
Just one little cycle.
Do that with teachers, even acouple three half-hour sessions,
(16:42):
and then model it at facultymeetings.
meetings within weeks, notmonths.
With any luck at all, you couldhave an entire faculty teaching
vastly better.
It's that simple.
Show people how to do something.
Teach them in small steps.
Make them demonstrate that theyhave it mastered.
Give them feedback along theway.
In other words, preach teachersjust like you would teach
(17:06):
students.
Let's demystify effectiveprofessional development.
That's what it is.
SPEAKER_00 (17:13):
You're listening to Transform Ed with Step Up.
We'll be right back after thisquick break.
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SPEAKER_00 (18:06):
And now let's return to Transform Ed with Step Up.
How do you coach school leadersthrough like those three focus
areas that you mentioned, thecurriculum, the instruction, the
literacy, with all the norms ina school building or in a school
district, how do you helpschools and leaders understand
(18:29):
what to let go of so that youcan keep the focus on those
things?
You know, with all theinitiatives that are coming from
maybe the district or the PTA orall these things that school
leaders have to balance.
SPEAKER_03 (18:41):
You know, Valerie, I think there's only one thing we
can do and have hope in this.
It might not convince everybodyall at once right up front.
But if you just do one thing,and that's make the case for the
three things I just described,for instance, even if you want
to do it just one at a time, youmight even start the
(19:01):
conversation just by saying,time up, folks.
Raise your hand if you thinkit's important for us to do the
most vital things first and togive them the lion's share of
our energy and attention.
You're probably going to see allthe hands go up.
Follow it up with anotherlogical question.
All of this is logical.
Well, should we not work realhard to identify those things
(19:25):
that would have the largest andswiftest, most timely impact on
student learning?
You're probably going to getlots of agreement to that.
And then you say, well, what arethey?
And then make your case.
Then say, look, here are all thepeople.
You know their names.
Some of you are familiar withtheir books.
Here are the people that saythat maybe curriculum is the
(19:48):
biggest.
And make that case.
Make a PowerPoint, you know,steal from books like mine and
just make a PowerPoint with afew quotes, a little bit of data
and say, look, this appears tobe quite possibly number one.
Then make the same case, youknow, again, in the same way
(20:09):
with the other two and say,wouldn't we want to do those
things?
No.
And would we not finally admitthat we can't do everything, can
we?
And we can only do one thing ata time.
So where do we begin?
You know, I actually wanted towrite a book just with the title
Priority.
In fact, the last two articles,I wanted to just put priority in
the title as the most prominentword.
(20:31):
We need to embrace priority.
It makes absolute logical sensefor us to stop periodically and
say, are we embracing what wouldhave the largest impact on what
we want most?
And keep saying that to leaders.
Don't you want that which worksbest?
best, to have the greatestbenefit for our kids, that's
(20:54):
priority.
Don't we want to be prioritydriven?
And keep pounding on it.
And going back to something Isaid earlier, if you don't bring
everyone with you, you don'thave to.
Get a single leader to, numberone, embrace the priorities and
produce results as soon aspossible.
And by results, most of thetime, in terms of student
(21:15):
outcomes, and share that withpeople.
Pelt people with results fromsuccessful, smart efforts.
That's the only way we'll getthat wheel turning.
SPEAKER_01 (21:28):
Well, I completely love that.
And I think that's the mostfrustrating thing for me is that
the priority isn't always onstudent learning.
No.
We've prioritized all theseother things.
And that's why I love about yourwork.
It's so simple.
You're like, it's logical.
What is your biggest priority?
What are we having kids go toschool for to learn?
(21:50):
But that's usually the lastthing.
So again, just reiterating, it'sthe curriculum.
It's how you teach and learn Buthere's where I think, and I
would love your takes, I knowwe're almost out of time too,
but this idea of instructionalleadership.
Because I think that's where Ihappen to be someone who worked
(22:11):
at district office in curriculumand got the call, will you
please come be a principal?
Don't take that call in themiddle of the year, I learned.
But I was dedicated toinstructional leadership and
that was something I wascomfortable with.
But I think there's a lot ofleaders right now because even
that model you're talking aboutof being brave and modeling to
teachers or facilitating that.
(22:33):
I wonder if it doesn't happenbecause we have so many leaders
who are great at managers butdon't feel great as
instructional leaders.
So there's this vulnerability.
And I just really feel that.
And I wonder your take on, don'tyou think it's understanding
yourself as a leader when youtake that job, part of your role
(22:53):
is instructional leadership andyou have to dive in and get
messy with teachers to make thata priority.
Well,
SPEAKER_03 (22:59):
yes, absolutely.
And yet, going back to somethingyou said, you say, well, some
leaders either perceivethemselves to be better at
managing than they are at realinstructional leadership.
Now, that's a big overarchingissue.
We really need to stop bringinganyone into the position of
(23:19):
principal who isn't primarilynumber one talent ought to be
they were excellent teachers.
Excellent teachers.
We need to stop bringing Forgiveme.
I quote
SPEAKER_01 (23:30):
you on that.
SPEAKER_03 (23:31):
Yes, we're not there yet.
So then that's one piece.
But what about the ones rightnow who are in there?
Let them lean on a teacher ortwo.
You know, Rick DeFore, the lateRick DeFore, was very good at
saying, form a small committeeof your leadership team at your
school consisting of some ofyour better, most talented
(23:53):
teachers, of course.
And they can do, you may not bethe best.
You may not have ever been thebest teacher and you're a
principal.
That doesn't mean you can'tlearn about good instruction,
work with even one or twoteachers and get them to study
up with you on good instructionand then model for the rest of
(24:15):
the faculty.
And then once teachers have beentrained, you know, big word
here, you know, before we getout of here this morning, you
guys, monitor.
We got to monitor.
If you say this is something weought to do, and you do a PD or
a short demonstration of aneffective lesson, that's only
(24:35):
the beginning.
Once a week, for a single hour,walk around the school and look
for evidence that the mostrecent PD session, even if it
was a 20-minute session, lookfor evidence that it's happening
and happening successfully.
And it probably isn't going tobe happening either consistently
(24:56):
or effectively as you'd like.
So you just like a good lesson.
You go right back to thatfaculty meeting where you send
messages out to people saying,we're doing this pretty well,
but not that.
Only about half of you areactually using checks for
understanding.
Some of you who are doing it aredoing it, but not quite right.
Here's something we've learned.
Keep it as anonymous as possibleuntil you have to make it
(25:19):
personal.
Address whole faculty issuesuntil more and more people are
on board and you're sharingtheir success and results and
only then go to the MikeSchmokers to say, Mike, as
actually happened to me when Ifirst learned about this kind of
teaching, Mike, you're stillcalling on kids with their hands
raised primarily.
(25:41):
You're allowing most of yourkids just to tune out.
That is how I would do it.
There's nothing terriblycomplicated about that model of
leadership.
SPEAKER_00 (25:55):
So as we wrap up, I want to ask one more question.
You know, this podcast is calledTransform Ed.
We focus a lot on like reform,but also this coming back to the
basics, which is really, Ithink, where you are shining the
light.
But if you think of like aneducation crystal ball, how do
you see the field of educationevolving over the next few
(26:19):
years?
And kind of a layer of that isthe simplicity that you're
trying to keep.
How does that work sort of inthe future of education?
SPEAKER_03 (26:31):
Well, if we look to the future, we see, on the one
hand, some encouraging things.
Emily Hanford's work sold astory, all that.
Very encouraging that there wasactually a collective effort.
Her effort, other people's thathave brought this issue to the
fore, and pretty much everybody.
Let me just say, you can overdophonics.
(26:53):
You can.
I'm a big phonist.
It was a high time we broughtphonics to the fore.
You can overdo it, but the goodnews is we realized systematic,
intense phonics instruction isprobably real smart for just
about every kid.
So we have a little bit of thatgoing on.
(27:13):
We even have some really, thisUSFL coming out of Florida seems
to be a real successful phonicsprogram.
We have people like DanielWillingham being candid enough,
like you two, to say, there's amassive gap between what we do
in schools and what researchtells us is most effective.
So there seems to be maybe, Ihave to say maybe, bubbling up
(27:35):
this awareness.
That's encouraging.
The discouraging thing is, andyou guys communicate, you too,
forgive me, communicated with meabout this early in an email
about the fact that we, oh, Ilost my train of thought.
have thought, forgive me.
(27:57):
One of your questions, inessence, had to do with the
buffer.
That was it.
That was what I wanted to comeback to.
Until we get rid of that bufferthat hides both the gap between
good and bad practice, and ithides the potential, enormous,
(28:20):
massive potential, of what wouldhappen to real students if we
did the right thing things, Idon't think we'll ever get off
the ground.
There has to be, I don't know, Idon't know where it'll come from
other than just a critical massof individuals or teams or
people like you, organizationslike yours, a certain critical
(28:41):
mass of ed professors, PDproviders who begin to realize
and push this message that wecould be vastly better and do so
much more for students andrevolutionize public education
if we stopped doing the mostcommon practices, there's no
getting around it, eliminatemost of the most common
(29:03):
practices and replace them withthe ones that hardly get any
attention.
And just to be reiterative,there's rarely a school that
actually has a literacy-rich,coherent curriculum in place,
even though it's probably thesingle largest factor.
Very, very, very few teachersknow enough about structured
(29:27):
instruction and checks forunderstanding to implement it
successfully.
Huge opportunities here.
Number three, what we callliteracy and English language
arts instruction consistsenormously of time-wasting
activities like coloring,cutting, pasting, test prep,
glitter, making posters, thesekinds of things.
(29:48):
All this negative points to ahuge, it's almost like going to
a hospital that never heard ofpenicillin.
SPEAKER_02 (29:55):
We
SPEAKER_03 (29:56):
have antibiotics.
Use them because they'retransformative.
SPEAKER_01 (30:04):
Yeah.
What a way to end.
Punch in the gut.
No, it was just reallyempowering and just solidifies.
I think sometimes you feel likeyou're crazy because you think
you get it figured out and thenall these other things are
constantly competing.
So just really refreshing tohear you.
(30:24):
It is simple, but we've made itmore complicated than we need
to.
So it definitely empowers in ourwork to be those voices to fight
back and do the right things forkids and teachers.
I do have hope we'll circle itback.
SPEAKER_03 (30:39):
Oh, I do too.
We have to live in that hope.
SPEAKER_00 (30:42):
Yes,
SPEAKER_03 (30:43):
we
SPEAKER_00 (30:44):
do.
All right.
Well, Dr.
Schmoker, thank you so much fortaking the time with us today.
Dr.
Schmoker reminds us that thetrue progress in education, it
doesn't come from chasingtrends.
It comes from the tried and truemethods following the research.
I had a lot of show notes fromtoday as you were chatting So
(31:04):
for our listeners, please checkout those show notes.
(31:33):
Thanks for tuning in toTransform Ed with Step Up.
Keep pressing education forward.
This episode was produced byValerie Montgomery with
assistance from Jamie Stevens.
Transform Ed with Step Up isbrought to you by Step Up
Consulting Services, your how-topartners for school improvement,
experts in curriculum,instruction, and assessment.
Welcome to
SPEAKER_01 (00:04):
Transform Ed with Step Up.
We want to build the knowledgebase of instructional leaders.
We aim to transform educationhere.
Let's
SPEAKER_00 (00:23):
get into it.
Welcome to Transform Ed withStep Up, the podcast that brings
clarity and actionable insightto the heart of education.
I'm your host, ValerieMontgomery.
And I'm Shauna Stefanczyk.
And today we're joined bysomeone whose work has
(00:45):
transformed how we think aboutinstruction, literacy, and
leadership in schools.
Dr.
Mike Schmoker is a formeradministrator, English teacher,
and football coach who hasbecome one of educators' most
influential voices.
He's the author of Thank you somuch for being with us this
(01:09):
morning, Dr.
Schmoker.
SPEAKER_03 (01:30):
You're so welcome.
Great to be with y'all.
SPEAKER_00 (01:33):
So you have been a teacher, a coach, an
administrator.
Now you're an author and aconsultant.
Can you share a little bit ofhow your journey and how you
ended up here and what led youto focus on the simplicity in
schools?
SPEAKER_03 (01:50):
Yeah, you know, almost from the time I became
interested in schooling andbeing a teacher, which actually
starts, doesn't it, for all ofus in some ways?
when we're in school, when we'rein that K-12 system, when we're
evaluating what's going on,we're evaluating how we're being
taught.
And I can always rememberthinking, you know, there was
(02:10):
some really, really goodteaching we got and some other
teaching that wasn't sowonderful.
And you began to see patternsand what was good and what
wasn't.
And then when I began to gothrough my education courses as
an undergrad and my studentteaching, that was a revelation.
Everything I thought wasabsolutely vital and important
(02:33):
seemed to have very low prioritywhen I began to take ed classes.
Just to give you an example, Iwas taking English teaching
methods.
Now, you would think thatEnglish teaching methods, this
is for secondary, mind you,there'd be plenty of emphasis
and opportunity on becomingbetter at, say, leading
discussions, teaching writing,how to ensure that students know
(02:57):
how to read effectively andanalytically.
Absolutely Absolutely none ofthat was ever even touched on.
It was bulletin boards.
It was making little packetswith crossword puzzles and
activities and things studentscould do in small groups and on
and on.
And then I get to studentteaching, and a mythology unit
(03:18):
that I was helping these twoteachers out with basically
consisted of watching movies,making togas out of sheets,
garlands out of wire hangersthat the kids could wear around
their heads, making fruit saladand calling it ambrosia.
A longer list, you can'tbelieve, a longer list of things
(03:43):
that had nothing to do withbecoming either a better speaker
or writer or reader.
And that was my studentteaching.
So early on, I began to thinkwhat really ought to go on in
classrooms might just bedrastically different than what
than what we're told to do in,say, education classes and, and
(04:04):
I have to say, as well as PD,where I saw just about the same
patterns there as I saw inundergraduate work.
So that I could go on, butthat's kind of, that might give
you that part of the journeythat explains my urgency to
write the books I write.
SPEAKER_00 (04:23):
Yeah.
And you, it sounds like you, yousaw that really early on, even
before you were in theclassroom, you noticed it in
your in your preparationcourses, which I don't know,
Shauna, can you kind of relateto that?
Do you remember some trends ofyour undergrad?
I
SPEAKER_01 (04:39):
remember a lot of busy work because I feel like
that's just our profession ingeneral.
When you talk about tokens, it'slots of busy work.
And then I had the samerealization.
Mine really took place thatfirst year of teaching, which is
why I formed this company too,is I realized day one, I was
underprepared.
I didn't came into a classroomand i didn't know how to teach
(05:02):
kids how to read i'd done tonsof projects to your point on all
these little fun boards and andthen i realized i don't know
phonics and how to teach and soyou know i just resonate with
you as well that's what we'retrying to do with systems and
processes and i've given up thebattle of trying to get a higher
ed to come on board i think wejust have to do it as
(05:23):
practitioners and we have tohelp practitioners take the
bulls by the horn can
SPEAKER_03 (05:27):
i just weigh in to say and i said this to the group
i had a podcast with yesterdayas well.
Your candor and your willingnessto be frank about the gap
between preparation and therealities of being an effective
teacher, we all have to be muchmore frank and detailed about
what we are and aren't getting,or it'll never change.
(05:48):
If enough of us, I think, riseup and say, hey, we really need
your help.
Imagine what would happen if thePD and undergrad teacher prep
community decided to focus onpriorities.
the things we really need.
It would be transformational andit would be swift.
SPEAKER_01 (06:05):
Completely.
And I think that's what's soupsetting is we're trying to do
it.
I've had conversations withpeople when I did new teacher
training in my district andprofessors were like, oh, read
my book.
And I'm like, I'm telling you itdoesn't work because we're left
trying to train them.
So thank you for theempowerment.
We'll keep the
SPEAKER_02 (06:25):
fight.
Oh, good for you.
SPEAKER_00 (06:28):
So let's kind of flip that and And so I think we
all have experienced theovercomplication.
You call it overcomplicatingschool improvement.
So if we flip it and we say,okay, here's what we do need to
focus on, what do you believeare the essential elements
schools should be focusing on?
SPEAKER_03 (06:48):
Well, the three things which I always write
about, and there's not a verystrong argument against these
three.
They're completely unoriginal onmy part.
I just began, you know, overtime you think, well, look over
the landscape.
listen to the people who are themost respected in the field and
for the larger mass ofresearchers and what do they all
agree on.
(07:08):
It well could be that number oneis you having a clear guide as a
teacher about what you need toteach and when.
So that when you arrive as ateacher, there's a little wiggle
room for you to do some of yourown thing.
But in the main, you have aschedule of what to teach and
when.
That very phrase I have stolenfrom like Everything I tout is
(07:32):
stolen by Linda Darlan-Hammond.
That's what a curriculum is.
You know about how much time todevote to it, approximately in
what order and when, and youknow what to teach and you don't
have to lay in bed wondering,what should I be teaching?
In the absence of a curriculum,chaos rushes in.
(07:52):
This is where worksheets,endless fruitless group work
rushes in and innovation uponinnovation that sounds cool, but
has no real impact.
And that's number one.
Number two, structuredinstruction that has, and I
rather than elaborate, I'll justassume people know enough about
this to get it, structuredinstruction.
(08:15):
Most of the time, not all, notall instruction is structured
and taught by the teacher in thefront of the classroom, but a
large amount, perhaps the, I'dsay an easy majority of it, the
teacher teaching the entireclass in small segments and
checking for understandingbetween each segment to see if
(08:39):
most or all of the kids aregetting it.
And if they're not, we reteach.
That simple cycle is somethingalmost every teacher's heard,
but it's never been emphasized.
It wasn't imparted with anythinglike energy and enthusiasm when
most of us were undergrads.
And we don't get enough of it inundergraduate preparation.
(09:02):
Number three, literacy in themost ordinary sense.
Loads of purposeful reading,discussion about that reading,
and writing about that reading.
That should be 80% of theEnglish language arts curriculum
and just about that same amountfor social studies and a huge
chunk of science and some amountof all the other courses as
(09:26):
well.
Those three things, curriculum,effect Effective, structured
instruction most of the time,not all but most.
And number three, literacy inthe most ordinary sense of that
word.
SPEAKER_00 (09:41):
That's music to my ears.
I may have to add in like a claptrack.
Oh,
SPEAKER_03 (09:46):
please, please.
I
SPEAKER_00 (09:49):
don't know how, but
SPEAKER_03 (09:50):
I'll figure it
SPEAKER_00 (09:50):
out.
SPEAKER_03 (09:52):
Yeah, well, go
SPEAKER_01 (09:54):
ahead.
Well, I was going to say, well,we've completely tricked you
into coming on this call toendorse what we do because we We
believe the exact same thing.
And I love that you quoted LindaDarling-Hammond.
I quote, I call Marzano thegodfather, which I think you
mentioned you're friends withhim.
You know him.
SPEAKER_03 (10:11):
Well, sure.
And he has really had as muchinfluence on me as anybody in
helping me to realize curriculumis probably the big one.
SPEAKER_01 (10:19):
Right.
And I did
SPEAKER_03 (10:20):
work.
I worked with Bob and across thehall from him for about eight
months.
SPEAKER_01 (10:24):
I knew you had mentioned that at one point when
you spoke because one time I gotto meet him and I was so
excited.
He said, you really need to geta life.
I said, hey.
SPEAKER_02 (10:35):
People do kind of worship him.
It kind of amazes
SPEAKER_01 (10:40):
him.
I know, it's so funny.
Well, because as a former,instruction's always been big to
me.
So of course I consumed so manyof his books, but guaranteed and
viable curriculum.
And I think the tricky part,because my next question is, how
do we overcomplicate it?
And I'm like, well, I wonderwhat you think about our
(11:01):
approach is I think what happensis I think there's this inner
part.
I mean, there's all thisresearch that says what we
should do.
It's the how for people.
Okay, if I have to have that,how do I do it?
And that's something our companytries to specialize in.
But then also, so let's say wecan get that clear curriculum
because I think that is the biggap.
(11:21):
It's the gap I had.
I walked in and nobody said,hey, here's your curriculum and
what you should teach.
How was that happening?
You know, and that's one thebiggest to me systemic barriers
in our field that we have thisdoor that revolving door that we
don't give that to teachers butthe biggest one we've really
been seeing lately too is withteachers the instruction piece I
(11:46):
mean Madeline Hunter come on shehad it figured out we know more
or less
SPEAKER_03 (11:52):
more or less anyway I mean almost any legit
instructional expert actuallyuses her main terms like check
for understanding, guidedpractice, modeling.
Oh, you know, introducing thelesson.
SPEAKER_01 (12:10):
I was like anticipatory set.
SPEAKER_03 (12:12):
There we go.
Anticipatory set.
SPEAKER_01 (12:13):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (12:15):
She deserves so much credit.
Go on though.
SPEAKER_01 (12:18):
No, she does.
And I guess I just wonder, solet's say, because I think for
our company and many of ourclients who are hopefully
listening to this, we've helpedthem fast track and get their
curriculum there.
You got it we we're dedicated inMissouri to making sure every
teacher walks in knows theirstandards sees them paced but
it's this idea of now structuredinstruction and we're really
(12:41):
struggling if I say kids becauseI'm now old but if these kids
are coming in and they haven'tbeen trained on Madeline Hunter
or knowing instruction it's howdo we as leaders organize and
would you say it's yourprofessional development like
how do we help do you thinkreally fast track to
understanding of what solidinstruction looks like and has
(13:03):
it changed Madeline Hunter withAI
SPEAKER_03 (13:06):
pardon me about AI
SPEAKER_01 (13:08):
oh well and then I just wonder how much our
instructional you know we alwaysanchor back to Madeline Hunter
but then I wonder how thatchanges with the development of
AI because one of the things Ithink that tuggles with it is
people are just throwing kids oncomputers rather than
instructing oh
SPEAKER_03 (13:24):
yeah oh absolutely for what it's worth I just wrote
a piece for education week cameout about two weeks ago called
if literacy i'm sorry i hope iget this title right if literacy
is a priority why do we cling tothe wrong practices and one and
i mentioned this just a shortlitany of the things that are
(13:45):
the real obstacles screen timescreen time almost always
devolves into test prep multiplechoice items read a passage
answer questions about thingslike the main idea or text
structure or cause and effect,those kinds of things, which we
(14:06):
hope I can say, which we knoware antithetical to real
authentic literacy.
They're glorified test prep.
There are so many obstacles togoing right back to what you
said about, say, effectivestructured instruction.
So many obstacles.
(14:26):
The solution to all that issimply show people how to do it.
Teach them no differently than Iwas taught.
Teach them no differently than Iwas.
I played football.
I was an offensive lineman.
Our coach was pretty good atsaying, here's how you do it.
He'd show us one aspect ofeffective offensive blocking.
(14:50):
Then we would do it.
And he'd watch us.
And then he'd say, not quite.
Do it more like this.
And after a few cycles of that,you were way, way better.
better at whatever you weredoing.
I was coached in a total ofabout two hours in how to teach
according to the basicfundamental elements of
effective teaching, which aremake clear to the student what's
(15:16):
being taught and how it will beassessed.
We can call that a learningtarget.
Make that crystal clear.
You double or triple the numberof kids who will succeed on a
lesson if you state that clearlyand simply, simply The shortest
statements are the best.
You double or triple the odds ofthe students meeting that target
(15:37):
if it's made clear at thebeginning and referred back to
and stuck with throughout thelesson.
Then you just, I'm just thinkingof professional development.
You model a lesson one step at atime for teachers that say, now
you guys do that for each other.
Or one of, and after a fewminutes, you might say, one of
(15:57):
you, I might be pick, I'm goingto pick Valerie at random.
Valerie, just come up here anddo one thing for us.
Show one step of how to make apaper airplane.
I literally do this.
Just the one step of making apaper airplane.
Tell us, pretend we're yourstudents.
Tell us how to complete that onestep and then cut us loose for
guided practice.
Always, always give us a timelimit or we'll sit there and
(16:21):
gape and stare and dither.
Give us a time limit.
And during that guided practice,Valerie, you walk around and you
see how well we're doing on thatparticular step.
And if we're not doing it right,what do you have to do?
Reteach.
Just one little cycle.
Do that with teachers, even acouple three half-hour sessions,
(16:42):
and then model it at facultymeetings.
meetings within weeks, notmonths.
With any luck at all, you couldhave an entire faculty teaching
vastly better.
It's that simple.
Show people how to do something.
Teach them in small steps.
Make them demonstrate that theyhave it mastered.
Give them feedback along theway.
In other words, preach teachersjust like you would teach
(17:06):
students.
Let's demystify effectiveprofessional development.
That's what it is.
SPEAKER_00 (17:13):
You're listening to Transform Ed with Step Up.
We'll be right back after thisquick break.
SPEAKER_01 (17:21):
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(17:43):
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Want to know more?
Reach out and visit us on ourwebsite at
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Step Up, the how-to partners ofschool improvement.
We are experts in curriculum,instruction, and assessment.
SPEAKER_00 (18:06):
And now let's return to Transform Ed with Step Up.
How do you coach school leadersthrough like those three focus
areas that you mentioned, thecurriculum, the instruction, the
literacy, with all the norms ina school building or in a school
district, how do you helpschools and leaders understand
(18:29):
what to let go of so that youcan keep the focus on those
things?
You know, with all theinitiatives that are coming from
maybe the district or the PTA orall these things that school
leaders have to balance.
SPEAKER_03 (18:41):
You know, Valerie, I think there's only one thing we
can do and have hope in this.
It might not convince everybodyall at once right up front.
But if you just do one thing,and that's make the case for the
three things I just described,for instance, even if you want
to do it just one at a time, youmight even start the
(19:01):
conversation just by saying,time up, folks.
Raise your hand if you thinkit's important for us to do the
most vital things first and togive them the lion's share of
our energy and attention.
You're probably going to see allthe hands go up.
Follow it up with anotherlogical question.
All of this is logical.
Well, should we not work realhard to identify those things
(19:25):
that would have the largest andswiftest, most timely impact on
student learning?
You're probably going to getlots of agreement to that.
And then you say, well, what arethey?
And then make your case.
Then say, look, here are all thepeople.
You know their names.
Some of you are familiar withtheir books.
Here are the people that saythat maybe curriculum is the
(19:48):
biggest.
And make that case.
Make a PowerPoint, you know,steal from books like mine and
just make a PowerPoint with afew quotes, a little bit of data
and say, look, this appears tobe quite possibly number one.
Then make the same case, youknow, again, in the same way
(20:09):
with the other two and say,wouldn't we want to do those
things?
No.
And would we not finally admitthat we can't do everything, can
we?
And we can only do one thing ata time.
So where do we begin?
You know, I actually wanted towrite a book just with the title
Priority.
In fact, the last two articles,I wanted to just put priority in
the title as the most prominentword.
(20:31):
We need to embrace priority.
It makes absolute logical sensefor us to stop periodically and
say, are we embracing what wouldhave the largest impact on what
we want most?
And keep saying that to leaders.
Don't you want that which worksbest?
best, to have the greatestbenefit for our kids, that's
(20:54):
priority.
Don't we want to be prioritydriven?
And keep pounding on it.
And going back to something Isaid earlier, if you don't bring
everyone with you, you don'thave to.
Get a single leader to, numberone, embrace the priorities and
produce results as soon aspossible.
And by results, most of thetime, in terms of student
(21:15):
outcomes, and share that withpeople.
Pelt people with results fromsuccessful, smart efforts.
That's the only way we'll getthat wheel turning.
SPEAKER_01 (21:28):
Well, I completely love that.
And I think that's the mostfrustrating thing for me is that
the priority isn't always onstudent learning.
No.
We've prioritized all theseother things.
And that's why I love about yourwork.
It's so simple.
You're like, it's logical.
What is your biggest priority?
What are we having kids go toschool for to learn?
(21:50):
But that's usually the lastthing.
So again, just reiterating, it'sthe curriculum.
It's how you teach and learn Buthere's where I think, and I
would love your takes, I knowwe're almost out of time too,
but this idea of instructionalleadership.
Because I think that's where Ihappen to be someone who worked
(22:11):
at district office in curriculumand got the call, will you
please come be a principal?
Don't take that call in themiddle of the year, I learned.
But I was dedicated toinstructional leadership and
that was something I wascomfortable with.
But I think there's a lot ofleaders right now because even
that model you're talking aboutof being brave and modeling to
teachers or facilitating that.
(22:33):
I wonder if it doesn't happenbecause we have so many leaders
who are great at managers butdon't feel great as
instructional leaders.
So there's this vulnerability.
And I just really feel that.
And I wonder your take on, don'tyou think it's understanding
yourself as a leader when youtake that job, part of your role
(22:53):
is instructional leadership andyou have to dive in and get
messy with teachers to make thata priority.
Well,
SPEAKER_03 (22:59):
yes, absolutely.
And yet, going back to somethingyou said, you say, well, some
leaders either perceivethemselves to be better at
managing than they are at realinstructional leadership.
Now, that's a big overarchingissue.
We really need to stop bringinganyone into the position of
(23:19):
principal who isn't primarilynumber one talent ought to be
they were excellent teachers.
Excellent teachers.
We need to stop bringing Forgiveme.
I quote
SPEAKER_01 (23:30):
you on that.
SPEAKER_03 (23:31):
Yes, we're not there yet.
So then that's one piece.
But what about the ones rightnow who are in there?
Let them lean on a teacher ortwo.
You know, Rick DeFore, the lateRick DeFore, was very good at
saying, form a small committeeof your leadership team at your
school consisting of some ofyour better, most talented
(23:53):
teachers, of course.
And they can do, you may not bethe best.
You may not have ever been thebest teacher and you're a
principal.
That doesn't mean you can'tlearn about good instruction,
work with even one or twoteachers and get them to study
up with you on good instructionand then model for the rest of
(24:15):
the faculty.
And then once teachers have beentrained, you know, big word
here, you know, before we getout of here this morning, you
guys, monitor.
We got to monitor.
If you say this is something weought to do, and you do a PD or
a short demonstration of aneffective lesson, that's only
(24:35):
the beginning.
Once a week, for a single hour,walk around the school and look
for evidence that the mostrecent PD session, even if it
was a 20-minute session, lookfor evidence that it's happening
and happening successfully.
And it probably isn't going tobe happening either consistently
(24:56):
or effectively as you'd like.
So you just like a good lesson.
You go right back to thatfaculty meeting where you send
messages out to people saying,we're doing this pretty well,
but not that.
Only about half of you areactually using checks for
understanding.
Some of you who are doing it aredoing it, but not quite right.
Here's something we've learned.
Keep it as anonymous as possibleuntil you have to make it
(25:19):
personal.
Address whole faculty issuesuntil more and more people are
on board and you're sharingtheir success and results and
only then go to the MikeSchmokers to say, Mike, as
actually happened to me when Ifirst learned about this kind of
teaching, Mike, you're stillcalling on kids with their hands
raised primarily.
(25:41):
You're allowing most of yourkids just to tune out.
That is how I would do it.
There's nothing terriblycomplicated about that model of
leadership.
SPEAKER_00 (25:55):
So as we wrap up, I want to ask one more question.
You know, this podcast is calledTransform Ed.
We focus a lot on like reform,but also this coming back to the
basics, which is really, Ithink, where you are shining the
light.
But if you think of like aneducation crystal ball, how do
you see the field of educationevolving over the next few
(26:19):
years?
And kind of a layer of that isthe simplicity that you're
trying to keep.
How does that work sort of inthe future of education?
SPEAKER_03 (26:31):
Well, if we look to the future, we see, on the one
hand, some encouraging things.
Emily Hanford's work sold astory, all that.
Very encouraging that there wasactually a collective effort.
Her effort, other people's thathave brought this issue to the
fore, and pretty much everybody.
Let me just say, you can overdophonics.
(26:53):
You can.
I'm a big phonist.
It was a high time we broughtphonics to the fore.
You can overdo it, but the goodnews is we realized systematic,
intense phonics instruction isprobably real smart for just
about every kid.
So we have a little bit of thatgoing on.
(27:13):
We even have some really, thisUSFL coming out of Florida seems
to be a real successful phonicsprogram.
We have people like DanielWillingham being candid enough,
like you two, to say, there's amassive gap between what we do
in schools and what researchtells us is most effective.
So there seems to be maybe, Ihave to say maybe, bubbling up
(27:35):
this awareness.
That's encouraging.
The discouraging thing is, andyou guys communicate, you too,
forgive me, communicated with meabout this early in an email
about the fact that we, oh, Ilost my train of thought.
have thought, forgive me.
(27:57):
One of your questions, inessence, had to do with the
buffer.
That was it.
That was what I wanted to comeback to.
Until we get rid of that bufferthat hides both the gap between
good and bad practice, and ithides the potential, enormous,
(28:20):
massive potential, of what wouldhappen to real students if we
did the right thing things, Idon't think we'll ever get off
the ground.
There has to be, I don't know, Idon't know where it'll come from
other than just a critical massof individuals or teams or
people like you, organizationslike yours, a certain critical
(28:41):
mass of ed professors, PDproviders who begin to realize
and push this message that wecould be vastly better and do so
much more for students andrevolutionize public education
if we stopped doing the mostcommon practices, there's no
getting around it, eliminatemost of the most common
(29:03):
practices and replace them withthe ones that hardly get any
attention.
And just to be reiterative,there's rarely a school that
actually has a literacy-rich,coherent curriculum in place,
even though it's probably thesingle largest factor.
Very, very, very few teachersknow enough about structured
(29:27):
instruction and checks forunderstanding to implement it
successfully.
Huge opportunities here.
Number three, what we callliteracy and English language
arts instruction consistsenormously of time-wasting
activities like coloring,cutting, pasting, test prep,
glitter, making posters, thesekinds of things.
(29:48):
All this negative points to ahuge, it's almost like going to
a hospital that never heard ofpenicillin.
SPEAKER_02 (29:55):
We
SPEAKER_03 (29:56):
have antibiotics.
Use them because they'retransformative.
SPEAKER_01 (30:04):
Yeah.
What a way to end.
Punch in the gut.
No, it was just reallyempowering and just solidifies.
I think sometimes you feel likeyou're crazy because you think
you get it figured out and thenall these other things are
constantly competing.
So just really refreshing tohear you.
(30:24):
It is simple, but we've made itmore complicated than we need
to.
So it definitely empowers in ourwork to be those voices to fight
back and do the right things forkids and teachers.
I do have hope we'll circle itback.
SPEAKER_03 (30:39):
Oh, I do too.
We have to live in that hope.
SPEAKER_00 (30:42):
Yes,
SPEAKER_03 (30:43):
we
SPEAKER_00 (30:44):
do.
All right.
Well, Dr.
Schmoker, thank you so much fortaking the time with us today.
Dr.
Schmoker reminds us that thetrue progress in education, it
doesn't come from chasingtrends.
It comes from the tried and truemethods following the research.
I had a lot of show notes fromtoday as you were chatting So
(31:04):
for our listeners, please checkout those show notes.
(31:33):
Thanks for tuning in toTransform Ed with Step Up.
Keep pressing education forward.
This episode was produced byValerie Montgomery with
assistance from Jamie Stevens.
Transform Ed with Step Up isbrought to you by Step Up
Consulting Services, your how-topartners for school improvement,
experts in curriculum,instruction, and assessment.
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