April 23, 2025 • 16 mins
In this episode, we unpack the real implications of embedded finance from a panel of global payment providers at iFS Expo 2024. From Asia-Pacific’s regulatory complexity to the risks and rewards of AI-powered experiences, we cover:
- Why embedded finance is different and more commercially mature than blockchain or open banking
- How APAC’s diverse infrastructure and “super apps” shape adoption and how to avoid playing in a 'walled garden'
- What agentic AI means for trust, autonomy, and ethics
- The rise of APIs and modular architecture as keys to sustainable scale
- Why proactive risk management and local partnerships are non-negotiable
🔍 Plus: Real-world examples from Shopify, Grab, Amazon, and more — showing embedded finance in action today.
-
Disclaimer: This episode was generated by AI.
The Translating Strategy to Execution Podcast is brought to you by Alumni Services, a digital transformation consultancy delivering end-to-end business improvement through a highly-skilled team of strategists, technologies, people change experts, and designers with an average of 20 years of experience.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
Okay, get this, half a trillion dollars.
That's roughly what the embeddedfinance market could be worth in
Asia Pacific next year alone.
SPEAKER_00 (00:08):
Wow, half a trillion.
SPEAKER_01 (00:10):
Yeah, and that's part of this like$600 billion
global wave.
So if you're trying to stayahead, trying to figure out what
really matters quickly, well,that growth, it signals
something huge is changing.
SPEAKER_00 (00:22):
It really does.
And your first thought mightjust be, oh, smoother online
payments.
SPEAKER_01 (00:27):
Right, the checkout experience.
SPEAKER_00 (00:28):
Exactly.
But embedded finance, as theexperts at the IFS Expo panel in
Bangkok pointed out, it'sactually much deeper.
It's about...
weaving financial tools rightinto everyday platforms the ones
that aren't primarily financial
SPEAKER_01 (00:43):
yeah exactly so it's not just about buying something
it's financial stuff becomingwell part of the flow whether
you're shopping online or maybeyour driver getting paid or
running a business so this deepdive today what we want to do is
basically cut through the noisefor you get past the jargon and
just show you the core ideas youneed to grasp about this trend
SPEAKER_00 (01:02):
and to do that We've looked at some key sources.
There are excerpts from a papercalled Embedded Finance, The
Great Equalizer in a DigitalWorld, which really captured
that IFS Expo panel discussion.
SPEAKER_01 (01:13):
Okay, good.
SPEAKER_00 (01:14):
And we also have insights directly from that
Bangkok panel itself.
Lane Out from Nuvi was there,Kalash from Primer, Patrick
Kirby from APA.
So real expert views.
SPEAKER_01 (01:23):
Great.
So the big question we'retackling is pretty simple.
Why are people calling embeddedfinance the great equalizer,
especially in a place as complexas Asia Pacific?
And what does that actually meanfor all of us?
SPEAKER_00 (01:36):
Yeah, let's get into that great equalizer thing
first.
It's quite a statement, isn'tit?
SPEAKER_01 (01:40):
It really is.
You hear echoes of, you know,how open banking or blockchain,
even AI, we're supposed tocompletely change the game for
financial access.
SPEAKER_00 (01:48):
Right.
So the immediate question is,why might embedded finance
actually be making a biggersplash or at least making it
faster right
SPEAKER_01 (01:55):
now?
Yeah, what's different?
SPEAKER_00 (01:56):
Well, the panelists seem to land on two things.
things, immediacy and commercialmaturity.
Basically, it's ready to go andbusinesses can actually use it
now.
They can kind of weave thesefinancial bits into what they
already do without the massiveheadache and cost of becoming,
say, a fully regulated bankthemselves.
SPEAKER_01 (02:13):
That integration part seems key, like Shopify
offering credit lines rightthere inside Shopify.
SPEAKER_00 (02:19):
Exactly.
Or grab, you know, offeringmicro insurance when you book a
ride.
SPEAKER_01 (02:23):
Right in the app.
SPEAKER_00 (02:24):
Yeah.
And Amazon does this stuff allthe time.
currency conversion, fraudchecks, loyalty points.
It's all just there in thecheckout.
You hardly notice it.
Financial tools working behindthe scenes.
SPEAKER_01 (02:36):
And think about the impact on smaller businesses.
This could genuinely, you know,level the playing field.
SPEAKER_00 (02:42):
How so?
SPEAKER_01 (02:43):
Well, it breaks down those old barriers.
Small shops, online sellers,they can suddenly access
sophisticated financial toolsthat used to be only for the big
guys with the deep pockets andtech teams.
SPEAKER_00 (02:54):
Right.
Bypassing the traditionalgatekeeper So it helps them
compete without needing hugeupfront cash or tech builds.
SPEAKER_01 (03:02):
That seems pretty transformative.
Now, if you compare that, openbanking, it's still kind of
finding its feet in many places,different rules everywhere.
SPEAKER_00 (03:09):
Yeah, adoption is patchy.
SPEAKER_01 (03:10):
And blockchain, still facing hurdles with actual
mainstream use, trust issues.
SPEAKER_00 (03:16):
And AI.
while powerful, lots ofbusinesses are still figuring
out how to turn it into real,tangible value, especially in
finance.
SPEAKER_01 (03:25):
So what's interesting here maybe is that
embedded finance builds trustdifferently because it's inside
apps and platforms you alreadyuse.
SPEAKER_00 (03:33):
That's what the panel suggested, yeah.
It's integrated into experiencesyou're familiar with, maybe you
already trust.
The financial service is just anoption within that familiar
space.
SPEAKER_01 (03:41):
Okay, let's shift focus specifically to Asia
Pacific then.
The experts really hammered homehow unique Oh,
SPEAKER_00 (03:47):
absolutely.
The defining thing about APAC isjust how complex and fragmented
it is.
What works in one country?
Well, it often needs majortweaks to work next door.
And it's interesting how trusthas evolved there, too.
A few years ago, people wereasking, can this even work?
Is it secure?
Now the conversation is muchmore about how to implement it,
how to expand.
SPEAKER_01 (04:08):
That's a quick shift.
And the fragmentation, yeah, yousee it everywhere.
Thailand's got prompt pay,right?
QR codes, instant transfers,everyone uses it.
SPEAKER_00 (04:15):
Then India has UPI.
Incredibly successful.
SPEAKER_01 (04:18):
But Japan, still a lot of cash floating around,
surprisingly.
SPEAKER_00 (04:21):
And China, of course, has those giant closed
ecosystems, Alipay, WeChat Pay,they're woven into like
everything, daily life, socialstuff.
SPEAKER_01 (04:31):
So if you're trying to offer embedded finance across
borders and APAC, wow.
The regulations must be anightmare.
SPEAKER_00 (04:39):
That's a huge challenge.
Data residency rules, licensingrequirements, they can
completely different between,say, Singapore and Hong Kong,
even though they're both majorhubs.
SPEAKER_01 (04:49):
So you can't just copy paste your solution.
SPEAKER_00 (04:51):
Definitely not.
The experts called it robustlocalization.
You absolutely need tounderstand each market, the
commercial logic, theregulations, what users actually
need and expect there.
SPEAKER_01 (05:00):
Get that right.
You build credibility.
Get it wrong.
SPEAKER_00 (05:03):
Big problems.
Regulatory trouble, operationalfailures.
Like in Thailand, if you don'tdon't integrate smoothly with
PromptPay, you're probablymissing a huge chunk of the
market.
It has to feel local.
SPEAKER_01 (05:13):
Okay, that brings up the super app thing.
WeChat, Grab, they're dominantin many parts of APAC.
SPEAKER_00 (05:18):
Huge platforms, yeah.
Offering everything under oneroof.
SPEAKER_01 (05:21):
Which is convenient for users, definitely.
But the panel warned about thembecoming sort of walled gardens.
SPEAKER_00 (05:27):
Right.
Where it's hard for otherbusinesses to play nicely or
integrate without getting lockedin.
SPEAKER_01 (05:32):
So how do businesses use the reach of these super
apps without becoming totallydependent?
SPEAKER_00 (05:39):
APIs.
That was the key thinghighlighted.
API driven architecture.
SPEAKER_01 (05:43):
Application programming interfaces.
The digital handshakes betweensystems.
SPEAKER_00 (05:47):
Exactly.
They let businesses connect tothese big platforms but still
keep control over their ownservices, their own data.
It's more flexible.
SPEAKER_01 (05:55):
It's like building with Lego bricks, right?
SPEAKER_00 (05:57):
That's a great analogy.
APIs are the blocks.
You can build your tech stack,add new things later, loyalty,
lending, KYC checks withouthaving to rip everything out and
start over.
Modularity.
SPEAKER_01 (06:07):
Makes sense.
Build what you need, connect itup.
Okay.
Looking ahead.
AI, it's everywhere.
How's it changing embeddedfinance specifically?
SPEAKER_00 (06:15):
Well, it's moving it from just reacting like payment
approved to predicting.
SPEAKER_01 (06:20):
Predicting what?
SPEAKER_00 (06:20):
Things like real-time credit scoring, much
smarter fraud detection, evenautomating smart contracts.
And think about language inAPAC.
So many languages.
SPEAKER_01 (06:31):
Yeah, huge diversity.
SPEAKER_00 (06:32):
AI offers huge potential there.
Natural language processing,personalization.
SPEAKER_01 (06:38):
You mean like AI chatbots that can handle local
languages?
Or voice assistantsunderstanding different
dialects?
SPEAKER_00 (06:43):
That's precisely.
Or interfaces that justtranslate automatically?
For businesses, especiallysmaller ones, this means you
could potentially servecustomers across different
language markets much moreeasily, even with a lean team.
It scales things.
SPEAKER_01 (06:56):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (06:57):
And the panel even touched on something called
agentic AI.
SPEAKER_01 (07:00):
Agentic AI.
What's that?
SPEAKER_00 (07:02):
Basically, AI systems that can act more
autonomously.
They can perform tasks, makedecisions, take actions within
certain boundaries, you said.
SPEAKER_01 (07:09):
Okay, like what in finance?
SPEAKER_00 (07:10):
Well, imagine an AI agent in your accounting
software just reconcilinginvoices automatically based on
rules, you said.
That
SPEAKER_01 (07:16):
frees up time.
SPEAKER_00 (07:17):
A lot of time.
Or within embedded finance,maybe an AI agent could
proactively renegotiate apayment plan if it sees you're
struggling.
Or flag really unusual spendingpatterns instantly.
Or even optimize your wholejourney as a customer without a
human stepping in directly.
Whoa.
That sounds incredibly powerful.
(07:37):
Yeah.
And potentially interesting.
Risky.
Exactly.
Huge potential benefits, but theexperts were really clear.
You need strong guardrails,serious oversight.
SPEAKER_01 (07:48):
Makes sense.
Because as AI makes it easierfor more companies to jump into
embedded finance, the whole riskmanagement side gets even more
critical, right?
SPEAKER_00 (07:54):
Absolutely.
The panel raised some toughquestions organizations need to
ask themselves, like, are yousure your algorithms aren't
biased?
What's your absolute worst casescenario if the AI messes up and
how do you fix it?
And crucially, Can you explainto a customer why an AI denied
their application or flaggedtheir account?
SPEAKER_01 (08:11):
Yeah, the transparency piece.
SPEAKER_00 (08:13):
These aren't just tech issues.
They're fundamental trustissues.
Because as finance gets wovendeeper into everything, people
expect it to be easy, sure, butthey also expect it to be safe
and fair.
SPEAKER_01 (08:22):
So with all these new players, new tech, how do
you actually build and keep thattrust?
SPEAKER_00 (08:28):
The consensus was around a proactive, layered risk
management approach.
It's not just about having fancyfraud tech.
SPEAKER_01 (08:35):
So technology isn't enough.
SPEAKER_00 (08:37):
No.
It's critical, but notsufficient.
You need a culture, really,where people feel empowered to
speak up.
That phrase, if somethingdoesn't feel right, call it out,
came up.
SPEAKER_01 (08:46):
So it's everyone's job, not just the compliance
team.
SPEAKER_00 (08:49):
Exactly.
Empowering people across theorganization.
Because even the best tech,without good governance, without
clear procedures, without peoplepaying attention...
It can fail.
You need constant monitoring,tweaking, optimizing to keep
that kind of social contractwith your customers.
SPEAKER_01 (09:05):
Okay.
Like having automatic alerts forweird transactions, but also
having a clear plan for howhumans investigate those alerts
quickly.
SPEAKER_00 (09:12):
Precisely.
Proactive and layered.
SPEAKER_01 (09:14):
Got it.
So stepping back a bit, thepanel also talked about how
embedded finance isfundamentally changing other
industries, not just financeitself.
SPEAKER_00 (09:22):
Yeah, that convergence of finance and tech,
all aimed at making the customerexperience simpler, smoother.
SPEAKER_01 (09:28):
Examples.
Things
SPEAKER_00 (09:29):
like embedding card issuing directly into a SaaS
platform or offering corebanking services through an
e-commerce site, connectingnon-banks to payment rails,
offering all sorts ofalternative payment methods,
handling global acquiring, allintegrated.
SPEAKER_01 (09:44):
Buy now, pay later came up too, right?
BMPO.
SPEAKER_00 (09:47):
Yeah, huge trend.
That and the continued rise ofthose mega apps grab Alipay
pulling more and more servicesunder their umbrella.
SPEAKER_01 (09:55):
And from the view of someone building the
infrastructure, like Primer,their focus seems to be purely
on that end customer and APAC.
SPEAKER_00 (10:03):
Right.
Making sure businesses have theright payment tools at the
checkout.
Is it cards?
E-wallets?
Is it something local likePromptPay in Thailand?
Getting that right is crucial.
SPEAKER_01 (10:14):
And it's not just about making things easier for
people already banked.
There's this potential to bringmore people in.
SPEAKER_00 (10:19):
A really important point, especially in places like
Indonesia with large underbankedpopulations.
Embedded finance maybe throughdigital wallets that you can top
up with cash, can be a gateway.
It gives people access to thedigital economy.
SPEAKER_01 (10:31):
So benefits for the underbanked, Benefits for small
businesses competing with biggerplayers.
SPEAKER_00 (10:37):
And for the big companies, too.
New ways to generate revenue byactually using the customer data
they have more effectively.
SPEAKER_01 (10:43):
Okay.
Sounds mostly positive, but whatare the big roadblocks still,
especially in APAC?
SPEAKER_00 (10:48):
Well, that fragmentation we talked about is
a major one.
How do you build something thatworks across all these different
markets without it becominginsanely complex technically?
SPEAKER_01 (10:58):
Yeah,
SPEAKER_00 (10:58):
the integration challenge.
Then there's potentialstructural resistance.
Traditional banks might notUnderstandable.
And if you're a
SPEAKER_01 (11:18):
merchant trying to sell into, say, Vietnam or the
Philippines...
you have to know what paymentmethods people actually use
there and offer them.
SPEAKER_00 (11:26):
Absolutely critical.
Plus, those worries about superapps becoming walled gardens
persist.
You don't want to get lockedinto one platform entirely.
SPEAKER_01 (11:34):
And the regulatory stuff around data, again, where
it's stored, who can access it,how people can get it removed,
that varies so much across APAC.
SPEAKER_00 (11:42):
Constant vigilance needed there.
SPEAKER_01 (11:44):
So technology is obviously key to navigating
this.
APIs, we mentioned those.
What else?
Cloud, self-service software.
SPEAKER_00 (11:51):
Yeah, being API-driven seems fundamental for
speed and flexibility in APAC.
And the cloud.
Regulators seem increasinglyokay with it, though maybe some
big traditional banks are stilla bit cautious.
SPEAKER_01 (12:02):
Okay.
And we touched on B2B and SaaS.
That seems like a reallyinteresting growth area.
SPEAKER_00 (12:07):
Definitely.
Embedding payments or lendingright into a CRM system or
accounting software like Zoho orXero.
SPEAKER_01 (12:14):
Makes it stickier for the customer.
SPEAKER_00 (12:16):
Exactly.
More sticky new revenue streamsfor the SaaS company.
Plus, they capture more of thecustomer's journey, generate
more data which feeds back intomaking the product better, maybe
using AML insights.
It drives that product-ledgrowth.
SPEAKER_01 (12:29):
Given all this complexity, different markets,
tech, regulations, partnershipsmust be absolutely crucial.
SPEAKER_00 (12:34):
Non-negotiable, really.
The panel was clear.
There's no one-size-fits-all inAPAC.
You need partners forcustomization, for global reach.
SPEAKER_01 (12:42):
Being a global expansion partner, what does
that actually involve?
SPEAKER_00 (12:46):
It's not just tech.
It's Understanding themerchant's business deeply, what
are they selling, where, how,and then tailoring the payment
setup, maybe domestic processinghere, cross-border there to get
the best performance, lowestcosts.
SPEAKER_01 (12:59):
How do companies find and build these
partnerships?
Any interesting approachesmentioned?
SPEAKER_00 (13:04):
Yeah, things like, so APIs and data orchestration
become vital to pull all thatinformation together.
That's where an infrastructureprovider like Primer positions
itself, is that singleintegration point connecting you
to payments partners, KYC tools,communication platforms, CRMs,
everything, unifying those panesof glass.
SPEAKER_01 (13:23):
But it's not just selling the tech pipes, is
SPEAKER_00 (13:25):
it?
No.
The consultative side is huge.
Advising businesses on the bestsetup, the tricky bits of going
cross-border like setting uplegal entities, handling taxes,
getting money back home, andmaking introductions to other
relevant partners.
It's advisory plus tech.
SPEAKER_01 (13:40):
Right.
Now, with all this seamlessness,you still need to manage risk.
Chargebacks, fraud...
How do you keep that in checkwithout just blocking legitimate
transactions?
SPEAKER_00 (13:50):
It's a balancing act.
The experts talked about tools,proactive monitoring, chargeback
mitigation suites, working withcard networks like MasterCard.
SPEAKER_01 (13:58):
But again, not just tech.
SPEAKER_00 (13:59):
No, that three lines of defense idea came up again.
Tech is the first line, but youneed standard operating
procedures, the second line, andthat culture of awareness,
people flagging things that seemoff, the third line.
SPEAKER_01 (14:09):
That if it's not quite right, flag it out
mentality.
SPEAKER_00 (14:12):
Exactly.
Because the panel hinted if theindustry doesn't get good at
managing its own risks,regulators will likely step in
with more rules.
SPEAKER_01 (14:20):
Makes sense.
Okay, wrapping up.
What are the really big futuretrends the experts see shaving
embedded finance next?
SPEAKER_00 (14:29):
AI, again, is central, specifically machine
learning.
Digging into all that paymentdata to find efficiencies,
optimize approvals, manage riskbetter.
And
SPEAKER_01 (14:38):
maybe changing how businesses even think about
payments.
SPEAKER_00 (14:40):
Potentially, yeah.
Shifting from seeing paymentsjust as a cost you have to bear
to seeing it as a strategic toolfor growth.
Something needing real focus andcollaboration internally.
SPEAKER_01 (14:50):
What else?
SPEAKER_00 (14:51):
Natural language processing for translation in
APAC.
That came up again as a hugeopportunity for smaller players
to expand.
SPEAKER_01 (14:57):
Right.
Breaking down language barriers.
SPEAKER_00 (14:59):
And identity management.
That's going to be massive.
Yeah.
With individuals getting morerights over their data,
regulations evolving.
Tech needs to solve how youmanage identity securely, how
you compartmentalize data whilestill meeting all the compliance
rules.
The
SPEAKER_01 (15:13):
complex challenge.
SPEAKER_00 (15:14):
For sure.
And underlying it all is thatconstant drive for things to be
even more efficient, moreseamless, more frictionless,
using real-time data forpersonalization, creating these
really adaptive shoppingexperiences.
SPEAKER_01 (15:27):
Okay, so recapping this deep dive.
Embedded finance definitely hasthis potential to be a great
equalizer, shaking things up,especially in diverse APAC.
APIs and AI are the engines, buttrust and smart risk management
are the absolute foundation.
It's complex, navigatingregulations, partnerships, the
tech itself.
But the trend is clearly towardsfinance just Disappearing into
(15:51):
the background, becoming morepersonalized, more seamless.
SPEAKER_00 (15:54):
So the final thought perhaps for you listening is, as
these lines blur between financeand everything else, what other
completely unexpected servicesmight just become embedded in
our daily lives?
SPEAKER_01 (16:04):
Yeah, and what does that really mean for how we
manage our money or data orprivacy in the future,
especially with AI agentspotentially acting on our
behalf?
SPEAKER_00 (16:11):
Lots to think about there.
SPEAKER_01 (16:12):
Definitely.
Well, thanks for taking thisdeep dive with us today.
Okay, get this, half a trillion dollars.
That's roughly what the embeddedfinance market could be worth in
Asia Pacific next year alone.
SPEAKER_00 (00:08):
Wow, half a trillion.
SPEAKER_01 (00:10):
Yeah, and that's part of this like$600 billion
global wave.
So if you're trying to stayahead, trying to figure out what
really matters quickly, well,that growth, it signals
something huge is changing.
SPEAKER_00 (00:22):
It really does.
And your first thought mightjust be, oh, smoother online
payments.
SPEAKER_01 (00:27):
Right, the checkout experience.
SPEAKER_00 (00:28):
Exactly.
But embedded finance, as theexperts at the IFS Expo panel in
Bangkok pointed out, it'sactually much deeper.
It's about...
weaving financial tools rightinto everyday platforms the ones
that aren't primarily financial
SPEAKER_01 (00:43):
yeah exactly so it's not just about buying something
it's financial stuff becomingwell part of the flow whether
you're shopping online or maybeyour driver getting paid or
running a business so this deepdive today what we want to do is
basically cut through the noisefor you get past the jargon and
just show you the core ideas youneed to grasp about this trend
SPEAKER_00 (01:02):
and to do that We've looked at some key sources.
There are excerpts from a papercalled Embedded Finance, The
Great Equalizer in a DigitalWorld, which really captured
that IFS Expo panel discussion.
SPEAKER_01 (01:13):
Okay, good.
SPEAKER_00 (01:14):
And we also have insights directly from that
Bangkok panel itself.
Lane Out from Nuvi was there,Kalash from Primer, Patrick
Kirby from APA.
So real expert views.
SPEAKER_01 (01:23):
Great.
So the big question we'retackling is pretty simple.
Why are people calling embeddedfinance the great equalizer,
especially in a place as complexas Asia Pacific?
And what does that actually meanfor all of us?
SPEAKER_00 (01:36):
Yeah, let's get into that great equalizer thing
first.
It's quite a statement, isn'tit?
SPEAKER_01 (01:40):
It really is.
You hear echoes of, you know,how open banking or blockchain,
even AI, we're supposed tocompletely change the game for
financial access.
SPEAKER_00 (01:48):
Right.
So the immediate question is,why might embedded finance
actually be making a biggersplash or at least making it
faster right
SPEAKER_01 (01:55):
now?
Yeah, what's different?
SPEAKER_00 (01:56):
Well, the panelists seem to land on two things.
things, immediacy and commercialmaturity.
Basically, it's ready to go andbusinesses can actually use it
now.
They can kind of weave thesefinancial bits into what they
already do without the massiveheadache and cost of becoming,
say, a fully regulated bankthemselves.
SPEAKER_01 (02:13):
That integration part seems key, like Shopify
offering credit lines rightthere inside Shopify.
SPEAKER_00 (02:19):
Exactly.
Or grab, you know, offeringmicro insurance when you book a
ride.
SPEAKER_01 (02:23):
Right in the app.
SPEAKER_00 (02:24):
Yeah.
And Amazon does this stuff allthe time.
currency conversion, fraudchecks, loyalty points.
It's all just there in thecheckout.
You hardly notice it.
Financial tools working behindthe scenes.
SPEAKER_01 (02:36):
And think about the impact on smaller businesses.
This could genuinely, you know,level the playing field.
SPEAKER_00 (02:42):
How so?
SPEAKER_01 (02:43):
Well, it breaks down those old barriers.
Small shops, online sellers,they can suddenly access
sophisticated financial toolsthat used to be only for the big
guys with the deep pockets andtech teams.
SPEAKER_00 (02:54):
Right.
Bypassing the traditionalgatekeeper So it helps them
compete without needing hugeupfront cash or tech builds.
SPEAKER_01 (03:02):
That seems pretty transformative.
Now, if you compare that, openbanking, it's still kind of
finding its feet in many places,different rules everywhere.
SPEAKER_00 (03:09):
Yeah, adoption is patchy.
SPEAKER_01 (03:10):
And blockchain, still facing hurdles with actual
mainstream use, trust issues.
SPEAKER_00 (03:16):
And AI.
while powerful, lots ofbusinesses are still figuring
out how to turn it into real,tangible value, especially in
finance.
SPEAKER_01 (03:25):
So what's interesting here maybe is that
embedded finance builds trustdifferently because it's inside
apps and platforms you alreadyuse.
SPEAKER_00 (03:33):
That's what the panel suggested, yeah.
It's integrated into experiencesyou're familiar with, maybe you
already trust.
The financial service is just anoption within that familiar
space.
SPEAKER_01 (03:41):
Okay, let's shift focus specifically to Asia
Pacific then.
The experts really hammered homehow unique Oh,
SPEAKER_00 (03:47):
absolutely.
The defining thing about APAC isjust how complex and fragmented
it is.
What works in one country?
Well, it often needs majortweaks to work next door.
And it's interesting how trusthas evolved there, too.
A few years ago, people wereasking, can this even work?
Is it secure?
Now the conversation is muchmore about how to implement it,
how to expand.
SPEAKER_01 (04:08):
That's a quick shift.
And the fragmentation, yeah, yousee it everywhere.
Thailand's got prompt pay,right?
QR codes, instant transfers,everyone uses it.
SPEAKER_00 (04:15):
Then India has UPI.
Incredibly successful.
SPEAKER_01 (04:18):
But Japan, still a lot of cash floating around,
surprisingly.
SPEAKER_00 (04:21):
And China, of course, has those giant closed
ecosystems, Alipay, WeChat Pay,they're woven into like
everything, daily life, socialstuff.
SPEAKER_01 (04:31):
So if you're trying to offer embedded finance across
borders and APAC, wow.
The regulations must be anightmare.
SPEAKER_00 (04:39):
That's a huge challenge.
Data residency rules, licensingrequirements, they can
completely different between,say, Singapore and Hong Kong,
even though they're both majorhubs.
SPEAKER_01 (04:49):
So you can't just copy paste your solution.
SPEAKER_00 (04:51):
Definitely not.
The experts called it robustlocalization.
You absolutely need tounderstand each market, the
commercial logic, theregulations, what users actually
need and expect there.
SPEAKER_01 (05:00):
Get that right.
You build credibility.
Get it wrong.
SPEAKER_00 (05:03):
Big problems.
Regulatory trouble, operationalfailures.
Like in Thailand, if you don'tdon't integrate smoothly with
PromptPay, you're probablymissing a huge chunk of the
market.
It has to feel local.
SPEAKER_01 (05:13):
Okay, that brings up the super app thing.
WeChat, Grab, they're dominantin many parts of APAC.
SPEAKER_00 (05:18):
Huge platforms, yeah.
Offering everything under oneroof.
SPEAKER_01 (05:21):
Which is convenient for users, definitely.
But the panel warned about thembecoming sort of walled gardens.
SPEAKER_00 (05:27):
Right.
Where it's hard for otherbusinesses to play nicely or
integrate without getting lockedin.
SPEAKER_01 (05:32):
So how do businesses use the reach of these super
apps without becoming totallydependent?
SPEAKER_00 (05:39):
APIs.
That was the key thinghighlighted.
API driven architecture.
SPEAKER_01 (05:43):
Application programming interfaces.
The digital handshakes betweensystems.
SPEAKER_00 (05:47):
Exactly.
They let businesses connect tothese big platforms but still
keep control over their ownservices, their own data.
It's more flexible.
SPEAKER_01 (05:55):
It's like building with Lego bricks, right?
SPEAKER_00 (05:57):
That's a great analogy.
APIs are the blocks.
You can build your tech stack,add new things later, loyalty,
lending, KYC checks withouthaving to rip everything out and
start over.
Modularity.
SPEAKER_01 (06:07):
Makes sense.
Build what you need, connect itup.
Okay.
Looking ahead.
AI, it's everywhere.
How's it changing embeddedfinance specifically?
SPEAKER_00 (06:15):
Well, it's moving it from just reacting like payment
approved to predicting.
SPEAKER_01 (06:20):
Predicting what?
SPEAKER_00 (06:20):
Things like real-time credit scoring, much
smarter fraud detection, evenautomating smart contracts.
And think about language inAPAC.
So many languages.
SPEAKER_01 (06:31):
Yeah, huge diversity.
SPEAKER_00 (06:32):
AI offers huge potential there.
Natural language processing,personalization.
SPEAKER_01 (06:38):
You mean like AI chatbots that can handle local
languages?
Or voice assistantsunderstanding different
dialects?
SPEAKER_00 (06:43):
That's precisely.
Or interfaces that justtranslate automatically?
For businesses, especiallysmaller ones, this means you
could potentially servecustomers across different
language markets much moreeasily, even with a lean team.
It scales things.
SPEAKER_01 (06:56):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (06:57):
And the panel even touched on something called
agentic AI.
SPEAKER_01 (07:00):
Agentic AI.
What's that?
SPEAKER_00 (07:02):
Basically, AI systems that can act more
autonomously.
They can perform tasks, makedecisions, take actions within
certain boundaries, you said.
SPEAKER_01 (07:09):
Okay, like what in finance?
SPEAKER_00 (07:10):
Well, imagine an AI agent in your accounting
software just reconcilinginvoices automatically based on
rules, you said.
That
SPEAKER_01 (07:16):
frees up time.
SPEAKER_00 (07:17):
A lot of time.
Or within embedded finance,maybe an AI agent could
proactively renegotiate apayment plan if it sees you're
struggling.
Or flag really unusual spendingpatterns instantly.
Or even optimize your wholejourney as a customer without a
human stepping in directly.
Whoa.
That sounds incredibly powerful.
(07:37):
Yeah.
And potentially interesting.
Risky.
Exactly.
Huge potential benefits, but theexperts were really clear.
You need strong guardrails,serious oversight.
SPEAKER_01 (07:48):
Makes sense.
Because as AI makes it easierfor more companies to jump into
embedded finance, the whole riskmanagement side gets even more
critical, right?
SPEAKER_00 (07:54):
Absolutely.
The panel raised some toughquestions organizations need to
ask themselves, like, are yousure your algorithms aren't
biased?
What's your absolute worst casescenario if the AI messes up and
how do you fix it?
And crucially, Can you explainto a customer why an AI denied
their application or flaggedtheir account?
SPEAKER_01 (08:11):
Yeah, the transparency piece.
SPEAKER_00 (08:13):
These aren't just tech issues.
They're fundamental trustissues.
Because as finance gets wovendeeper into everything, people
expect it to be easy, sure, butthey also expect it to be safe
and fair.
SPEAKER_01 (08:22):
So with all these new players, new tech, how do
you actually build and keep thattrust?
SPEAKER_00 (08:28):
The consensus was around a proactive, layered risk
management approach.
It's not just about having fancyfraud tech.
SPEAKER_01 (08:35):
So technology isn't enough.
SPEAKER_00 (08:37):
No.
It's critical, but notsufficient.
You need a culture, really,where people feel empowered to
speak up.
That phrase, if somethingdoesn't feel right, call it out,
came up.
SPEAKER_01 (08:46):
So it's everyone's job, not just the compliance
team.
SPEAKER_00 (08:49):
Exactly.
Empowering people across theorganization.
Because even the best tech,without good governance, without
clear procedures, without peoplepaying attention...
It can fail.
You need constant monitoring,tweaking, optimizing to keep
that kind of social contractwith your customers.
SPEAKER_01 (09:05):
Okay.
Like having automatic alerts forweird transactions, but also
having a clear plan for howhumans investigate those alerts
quickly.
SPEAKER_00 (09:12):
Precisely.
Proactive and layered.
SPEAKER_01 (09:14):
Got it.
So stepping back a bit, thepanel also talked about how
embedded finance isfundamentally changing other
industries, not just financeitself.
SPEAKER_00 (09:22):
Yeah, that convergence of finance and tech,
all aimed at making the customerexperience simpler, smoother.
SPEAKER_01 (09:28):
Examples.
Things
SPEAKER_00 (09:29):
like embedding card issuing directly into a SaaS
platform or offering corebanking services through an
e-commerce site, connectingnon-banks to payment rails,
offering all sorts ofalternative payment methods,
handling global acquiring, allintegrated.
SPEAKER_01 (09:44):
Buy now, pay later came up too, right?
BMPO.
SPEAKER_00 (09:47):
Yeah, huge trend.
That and the continued rise ofthose mega apps grab Alipay
pulling more and more servicesunder their umbrella.
SPEAKER_01 (09:55):
And from the view of someone building the
infrastructure, like Primer,their focus seems to be purely
on that end customer and APAC.
SPEAKER_00 (10:03):
Right.
Making sure businesses have theright payment tools at the
checkout.
Is it cards?
E-wallets?
Is it something local likePromptPay in Thailand?
Getting that right is crucial.
SPEAKER_01 (10:14):
And it's not just about making things easier for
people already banked.
There's this potential to bringmore people in.
SPEAKER_00 (10:19):
A really important point, especially in places like
Indonesia with large underbankedpopulations.
Embedded finance maybe throughdigital wallets that you can top
up with cash, can be a gateway.
It gives people access to thedigital economy.
SPEAKER_01 (10:31):
So benefits for the underbanked, Benefits for small
businesses competing with biggerplayers.
SPEAKER_00 (10:37):
And for the big companies, too.
New ways to generate revenue byactually using the customer data
they have more effectively.
SPEAKER_01 (10:43):
Okay.
Sounds mostly positive, but whatare the big roadblocks still,
especially in APAC?
SPEAKER_00 (10:48):
Well, that fragmentation we talked about is
a major one.
How do you build something thatworks across all these different
markets without it becominginsanely complex technically?
SPEAKER_01 (10:58):
Yeah,
SPEAKER_00 (10:58):
the integration challenge.
Then there's potentialstructural resistance.
Traditional banks might notUnderstandable.
And if you're a
SPEAKER_01 (11:18):
merchant trying to sell into, say, Vietnam or the
Philippines...
you have to know what paymentmethods people actually use
there and offer them.
SPEAKER_00 (11:26):
Absolutely critical.
Plus, those worries about superapps becoming walled gardens
persist.
You don't want to get lockedinto one platform entirely.
SPEAKER_01 (11:34):
And the regulatory stuff around data, again, where
it's stored, who can access it,how people can get it removed,
that varies so much across APAC.
SPEAKER_00 (11:42):
Constant vigilance needed there.
SPEAKER_01 (11:44):
So technology is obviously key to navigating
this.
APIs, we mentioned those.
What else?
Cloud, self-service software.
SPEAKER_00 (11:51):
Yeah, being API-driven seems fundamental for
speed and flexibility in APAC.
And the cloud.
Regulators seem increasinglyokay with it, though maybe some
big traditional banks are stilla bit cautious.
SPEAKER_01 (12:02):
Okay.
And we touched on B2B and SaaS.
That seems like a reallyinteresting growth area.
SPEAKER_00 (12:07):
Definitely.
Embedding payments or lendingright into a CRM system or
accounting software like Zoho orXero.
SPEAKER_01 (12:14):
Makes it stickier for the customer.
SPEAKER_00 (12:16):
Exactly.
More sticky new revenue streamsfor the SaaS company.
Plus, they capture more of thecustomer's journey, generate
more data which feeds back intomaking the product better, maybe
using AML insights.
It drives that product-ledgrowth.
SPEAKER_01 (12:29):
Given all this complexity, different markets,
tech, regulations, partnershipsmust be absolutely crucial.
SPEAKER_00 (12:34):
Non-negotiable, really.
The panel was clear.
There's no one-size-fits-all inAPAC.
You need partners forcustomization, for global reach.
SPEAKER_01 (12:42):
Being a global expansion partner, what does
that actually involve?
SPEAKER_00 (12:46):
It's not just tech.
It's Understanding themerchant's business deeply, what
are they selling, where, how,and then tailoring the payment
setup, maybe domestic processinghere, cross-border there to get
the best performance, lowestcosts.
SPEAKER_01 (12:59):
How do companies find and build these
partnerships?
Any interesting approachesmentioned?
SPEAKER_00 (13:04):
Yeah, things like, so APIs and data orchestration
become vital to pull all thatinformation together.
That's where an infrastructureprovider like Primer positions
itself, is that singleintegration point connecting you
to payments partners, KYC tools,communication platforms, CRMs,
everything, unifying those panesof glass.
SPEAKER_01 (13:23):
But it's not just selling the tech pipes, is
SPEAKER_00 (13:25):
it?
No.
The consultative side is huge.
Advising businesses on the bestsetup, the tricky bits of going
cross-border like setting uplegal entities, handling taxes,
getting money back home, andmaking introductions to other
relevant partners.
It's advisory plus tech.
SPEAKER_01 (13:40):
Right.
Now, with all this seamlessness,you still need to manage risk.
Chargebacks, fraud...
How do you keep that in checkwithout just blocking legitimate
transactions?
SPEAKER_00 (13:50):
It's a balancing act.
The experts talked about tools,proactive monitoring, chargeback
mitigation suites, working withcard networks like MasterCard.
SPEAKER_01 (13:58):
But again, not just tech.
SPEAKER_00 (13:59):
No, that three lines of defense idea came up again.
Tech is the first line, but youneed standard operating
procedures, the second line, andthat culture of awareness,
people flagging things that seemoff, the third line.
SPEAKER_01 (14:09):
That if it's not quite right, flag it out
mentality.
SPEAKER_00 (14:12):
Exactly.
Because the panel hinted if theindustry doesn't get good at
managing its own risks,regulators will likely step in
with more rules.
SPEAKER_01 (14:20):
Makes sense.
Okay, wrapping up.
What are the really big futuretrends the experts see shaving
embedded finance next?
SPEAKER_00 (14:29):
AI, again, is central, specifically machine
learning.
Digging into all that paymentdata to find efficiencies,
optimize approvals, manage riskbetter.
And
SPEAKER_01 (14:38):
maybe changing how businesses even think about
payments.
SPEAKER_00 (14:40):
Potentially, yeah.
Shifting from seeing paymentsjust as a cost you have to bear
to seeing it as a strategic toolfor growth.
Something needing real focus andcollaboration internally.
SPEAKER_01 (14:50):
What else?
SPEAKER_00 (14:51):
Natural language processing for translation in
APAC.
That came up again as a hugeopportunity for smaller players
to expand.
SPEAKER_01 (14:57):
Right.
Breaking down language barriers.
SPEAKER_00 (14:59):
And identity management.
That's going to be massive.
Yeah.
With individuals getting morerights over their data,
regulations evolving.
Tech needs to solve how youmanage identity securely, how
you compartmentalize data whilestill meeting all the compliance
rules.
The
SPEAKER_01 (15:13):
complex challenge.
SPEAKER_00 (15:14):
For sure.
And underlying it all is thatconstant drive for things to be
even more efficient, moreseamless, more frictionless,
using real-time data forpersonalization, creating these
really adaptive shoppingexperiences.
SPEAKER_01 (15:27):
Okay, so recapping this deep dive.
Embedded finance definitely hasthis potential to be a great
equalizer, shaking things up,especially in diverse APAC.
APIs and AI are the engines, buttrust and smart risk management
are the absolute foundation.
It's complex, navigatingregulations, partnerships, the
tech itself.
But the trend is clearly towardsfinance just Disappearing into
(15:51):
the background, becoming morepersonalized, more seamless.
SPEAKER_00 (15:54):
So the final thought perhaps for you listening is, as
these lines blur between financeand everything else, what other
completely unexpected servicesmight just become embedded in
our daily lives?
SPEAKER_01 (16:04):
Yeah, and what does that really mean for how we
manage our money or data orprivacy in the future,
especially with AI agentspotentially acting on our
behalf?
SPEAKER_00 (16:11):
Lots to think about there.
SPEAKER_01 (16:12):
Definitely.
Well, thanks for taking thisdeep dive with us today.
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