February 17, 2025 • 37 mins
This episode dives into the crucial concept of empathetic leadership and its impact on workplace dynamics. Through a conversation with Javon Wooden, listeners learn how to identify empathetic leaders and navigate challenges faced when leaders lack empathy.
• Definition of empathetic leadership and its importance
• Javon Wooden's personal journey to becoming a leadership coach
• Key signs of an empathetic leader versus an authoritarian one
• Steps for employees to take if their leaders are dismissive of their challenges
• The connection between empathy and overall team morale
• Strategies for influencing leaders to foster a supportive workplace
• Real-life examples of how empathy improves team performance
• Final thoughts on proactive employee engagement and leadership qualities
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey and welcome back to the Transparent HR podcast
where we bring realconversations to help you
navigate your career andworkplace challenges.
It's your host, prince Tate,and you are listening to another
episode.
Today we are talking aboutempathetic leadership and really
how it shapes workplace culture, impacts morale and what you
(00:23):
can do if your leader isn'tshowing empathy.
So for today, joining us isJavon Wooden.
He is the Chief ExecutiveOfficer and founder of Bright
(00:47):
Mind Consulting Group.
Javon is a dynamic speaker.
He's a certified coach, abusiness consultant specializing
in empathetic leadership andworkplace culture.
As an Army veteran and BronzeStar recipient, he brings a
unique perspective on resilienceleadership and creating
(01:09):
meaningful workplace change.
Javon, welcome to the podcast.
How's it going, man, man, Iappreciate you having me, prince
.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
It is going well and I know we're about to have a
phenomenal conversation.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Absolutely, man.
We met a few months months agoand you know we both have been
supporting each other onLinkedIn.
Thank you for you know, sharingmy episodes, but I'm super
excited that you are here, man.
I have a chief executiveofficer on my podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
You are a chief executive officer.
You running this show, man.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Hey, man, it's a mindset thing, right?
Absolutely Well, man.
Thank you so much.
Before we jump in, tell ussomething unique about yourself
that many people don't knowabout you.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Man.
Something unique about myselfis, as I've gotten older,
everyone thinks I'm an extrovertbecause I'm always like this,
talking to everyone.
But, I've actually grown to bemore to enjoy solitude a little
more.
And I think that would surprisea lot of people who know me.
They're like, yeah, okay, butno, truly, I have to recharge
(02:21):
after I do any in-depthconversations, after I speak,
after I go out into crowds thesedays.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
That is so interesting.
I think I'm an extrovert.
I'll just say that I lovepeople.
I told my boss Friday I said Ilove coming to work on Mondays.
Like I'm for it.
Look I'm ready.
Look, the weekend has gone by.
You know I've sat down and beenout, been at home most of the
(02:49):
times with my family and by thetime Monday come, I'm ready to
get out there.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Hey, your boss probably want to multiply you
right now.
Like, yeah, I need more of you.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
She's like Nope, not me, but that's why she got me
Right.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Right, absolutely, absolutely.
You got to know your strengths.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Yeah, so you know, I really, I really want to talk
about how did you start thisjourney of really talking about
empathetic leadership and andreally getting into your
business.
How did you, how did all thisget started?
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Man.
You know what I was in themilitary.
I was in the army for 12 yearsand this journey actually
started on my last deployment.
I did three tours overseas andwhen I was in Afghanistan, 2017,
I was like what can I do?
Like I don't want to do thisanymore.
I don't enjoy technology, Idon't want to protect ones and
(03:44):
zeros, so there has to be more.
And I Googled it.
I was like what can I do tohelp impact people?
Because that's really what Iwanted to do.
I had been told that I was goodat motivating people, good at
helping people find their valueand their strength and getting
them to actually take action.
So I was like, okay,motivational speaking, got it,
what else?
And when I Google, it was alist and I found coaching.
(04:06):
And not coaching in the senseof like when sports were
thinking about somebody whodraws up the plays and tells
them how to execute it, butcoaching in the sense of asking
people powerful questions andhelping them discover the
answers within themselves.
And when I did that, it justset me on this journey.
I got certified throughInternational Coaching
Federation.
I got a ton of assessmentcertifications, like DISC and
(04:29):
emotional intelligence quotient.
I wrote a book in 2021 calledOwn your Kingdom how to Control
your Mindset so you Control yourDestiny.
And going through a lot of liferight, having experiences,
being someone who has bouts withdepression and PTSD, being
someone who's gone down bouncedwith alcoholism and everything
else under the sun.
You know, I was just like allright.
(04:51):
How can I turn all of this andtake it along my journey to help
other people understand thatvulnerability is strength and
that if you care for yourselfand you care for others, god
will take care of you?
And that's what I do today.
That's how I found this calling.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
Man, I really appreciate how you walk this
through your journey, becauseindividuals always or people,
let's just say they always tryto figure out okay, how do you
find your purpose and how do youreally get into it.
And I often tell people thatyour purpose or your gifting is
not for you, right, it's forother people to indulge in and
(05:28):
to receive from it.
But you know there's ascripture that says that your
gifting will make room for you,right?
And so, while a lot of timespeople think, oh, you know my
gift, and sometimes it can beexhausting, sometimes it can be
tiresome, it can be exhausting,sometimes it can be tiresome,
but I think there's joy inknowing that someone out there
(05:50):
is looking for what you have tooffer.
And I just want to say thankyou for just diving into that
and really elevating and helpingpeople, as you said, coaching
people so they can.
You know, you ask those hardquestions, you ask those things
like they probably have neverthought about and really giving
(06:12):
them what they need to besuccessful.
So I just want to say kudos toyou, man, for just doing that.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
I appreciate you.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
I appreciate that, yeah, yeah.
So the real question.
A lot of people may not knowwhat empathetic leadership is.
Can you help us dive into thatand what is empathetic
leadership, and how can peoplehave a better understanding of
what this is?
Speaker 2 (06:41):
Yeah, absolutely Well .
The Merriam-Webster definitionof empathy really is about being
able to understand and processthe feelings and emotions of
others and influence them insome way, shape or form.
But my definition is a littlebit different for that.
I look at empathy as a way tounderstand how to best support
and provide the resources thatsomeone needs so they can be the
(07:02):
best version of themselves.
There was a quote that I heardone day.
I can't recall who said it, butthey said a butterfly can't see
their own wings.
And for me, that's what empathydoes it allows people to see
the beauty and the power withinthemselves that they may not
have ever tapped into.
So if you're an empatheticleader, you're not coming from
the place of what can I get fromyou.
(07:23):
You're coming from a place ofwhat can I get from you?
Speaker 1 (07:26):
You're coming from a place of how can I get the best
from you, right, how can youcome back?
Speaker 2 (07:30):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
It's servant leadership.
It's how can I do what I needto do, how can I support you,
how can I uplift you, how can Iinspire you, how can I influence
you so that you can do what youreally serving your purpose
right, whatever that looks like,and it's really the ability to
identify that, the role thatsomeone is embedded in.
That may not necessarily betheir strength, but you won't
(07:52):
know that unless you get to knowthem.
So understanding what motivatesthem, understanding their
drivers, understanding whatmakes them tick, understanding
their baseline.
How do they normally act?
What's their way ofcommunication like?
Really getting to know thatperson for who they are, not for
the job they are in you.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
You're already kicking this episode off.
Uh, just man, with somepowerful words, um, and, and
some some of these quotes thatI'm gonna have to steal, right?
hey, go ahead I don't mind atall but you know, when we talk
about leadership, right, and andone thing that you said was
(08:32):
really getting to know thepeople who work for you, or I
like to say, with you, becausegood leaders understand that you
don't work for me we worktogether as a team.
It just so happens that I havea title.
You have a title, right, butwhen we take this framework of
(08:54):
really being empathetic,learning our team members,
learning how they operate theirstrengths, their weaknesses, it
can really help us to be and toshow empathetic as we lead
people.
So how can employees?
Because this podcast is allabout helping employees, whether
(09:17):
you are a leader or anindividual contributor.
So how can you tell if yourleader truly cares about you or
if they're just saying the rightthings in the right moment?
Speaker 2 (09:29):
Yeah, I mean.
One thing I would say is thekey word is saying what are they
doing?
Because that's really where weknow if someone is just doing
something because they thinkit's going to get the most out
of you, or if they're actuallydoing it because they genuinely
care.
So if a leader says that, hey,we're going to get the most out
of you, or if they're actuallydoing it because they genuinely
care.
So if a leader says that, hey,we're going to have an open door
policy and that door isactually closed, meaning that if
(09:52):
you come to them with a problem, they get defensive and they
don't hear your feedback, thenyou know that you're not dealing
with an empathetic leader.
If a leader doesn't takeresponsibility for a decision
that went wrong, if they don'tsay, my bad, y'all, I got you on
the next one, or ask you howthey can better support you next
time, then you don't have anempathetic leader, right?
So what they're doing goes waybeyond what they're saying,
(10:14):
because the greatest leadersthey don't need to say a thing,
right, they show Wow.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
They just show it in their it Right, they just show
it in their action.
Man, that is great because youknow a lot of employees deal
with that challenge, like that'sa real challenge that they deal
with on a day-to-day basis.
Sometimes you don't know, can Itrust my leader or do they
(10:41):
really care about me right,other than just saying the right
thing?
And that kind of takes me tolike you know corporate
leadership, you know you knowthe right things to say and how
to say it in front of the rightpeople, but in actuality, can
you show me better than you cantell me right?
Speaker 2 (11:04):
That's it and you know what.
I want to make sure that thelisteners understand that.
You know leadership is not atitle Right.
A lot of people who are peoplemanagers.
They get put in these rolesbecause they are great
technically.
And that's where the disconnectis taking place Just because
you are great in doing the thingdoes not mean you will be great
leading the people.
(11:25):
And then you know, by no faultof some of these leaders, they
really never get the trainingand skills they need to learn
how to be better in thosesituations.
As an individual contributor,you are a leader you can
(11:47):
influence.
So I want everyone listening tounderstand that it's not about
the billet that you're servingin.
It's about the influence andimpact you're making.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
Man, you are spitting this stuff out, but you know
that is what leadership is allabout.
How can I influence you to beyour best self, to, you know,
get you to a point to where youare maximizing on your strengths
(12:16):
and you can grow even in yourweaknesses to become a better
professional?
A better human being is tobecome a better professional, a
better human being.
Again, as we talk aboutchallenges, right, that
employees face, one thing thatcomes to mind is and sometimes
leaders, they get so in theirheads that they're just leading,
(12:42):
leading, leading, leading.
I'm the manager, I'm the leader, and they stop to.
They don't stop to think like,hey, how can I be empathetic and
show that I truly care aboutthis person, even though you
know productivity still needs tokeep?
You know, keep going right.
You know the job needs to getdone right.
(13:04):
So what should an employee doif their manager really
dismisses personal challengesthat they may be facing, like
needing time off for work for afamily emergency?
Speaker 2 (13:16):
Yeah, I mean there's a number of steps.
So first thing, in the militarywe always said if you got a
problem, handle it at the lowestlevel.
So look to find time on thatleader's calendar.
Just say hey, can I get 15minutes?
First of all, you should havecheck-ins with this leader.
If this is your direct reportto this person, y'all should
establish some type of check-insystem.
(13:39):
And one way you can know if thatleader truly is empathetic is
do they keep pushing thatcheck-in back?
Do they keep pushing your thingback as if you're not important
?
Because if they do, you need tonip it in the bud.
You need to let your leaderknow I am valued just as much as
you are valued, because noone's going to treat you as well
as you should be treatingyourself.
(13:59):
But you have to set theprecedence.
So I want people to understandthat first.
The second thing is in thatconversation, if you can like,
learn your leader, learn theirbest communication style, their
tactics right.
Understand if there's somebodyyou need to get a little more
you know assertive with.
Or there's someone who gets itwhen you're a little more softer
in the tone, right.
(14:19):
So you got to know your leader.
Y'all should have thoseconversations hey, how do I
communicate, how do I provideyou feedback, vice versa?
That should be a proactiveconversation that you have, and
when you're in that conversationand you say, hey, you know, I
requested time off in thisexample and you declined it,
well, let me tell you why thisis urgent.
(14:40):
Give them the urgency, why it'surgent, and then see what they
respond with.
For instance, if it's urgentbecause someone has surgery and
you need to take care of them,that leader should, by all
accounts, say, okay, cool, I gotit.
If they do not, this is thetime you say okay, got it.
No point in getting upset, nopoint in trying to bump your
head against the wall.
That is that person.
(15:01):
Time to take it to the nextlevel.
All right, who can I talk thatI can get support to?
Right?
Maybe this is a could beanother leader that has
influence over the leader thatyou deal with Say, hey, you know
I had this conversation, Ithought this was going to go
this way, but it didn't.
What would you do?
Get some say from them, whatwould they do, how would they
(15:21):
handle that situation?
And then, once you get that, ifit aligns with who you are, you
can try that, depending on howmuch time you have to get this.
But you don't want to escalateit all the way up until you've
tried what we call theescalation of force.
So you want to try handling atthe lowest level.
Next step is go to someone else.
You can get some informationand insights to make sure you're
(15:42):
doing it properly.
Make sure you're going about itthe right way, because
sometimes our emotions can getin our way too, especially in
this situation, or whateverdepartment you have that can
represent you in that situationand circumstance.
But you want to make sure thatyou know the policies on that
(16:03):
too.
Don't just do it because youthink that is the right thing.
Learn the policy.
Say this is the spot where itsays that you have to give me
time, right, so you might haveto pull that card and understand
that you also may have to becomfortable with that.
This person may not treat youthe way that they used to, or it
may start to spark.
I know they say retaliation isnot, you know, welcomed, but you
(16:26):
got to be on the watch for thatand start documenting if
necessary.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
Yeah, so you mentioned HR, right, and I was
going to go into the story how alot of times employees they do
have family emergencies.
You know emergencies may happenwith you know, their child, you
know needing to go home fromschool, right, and I've seen
(16:51):
certain situations where a lotof leaders sometimes aren't
empathetic to their employees.
I had this one situation ithappens wherever I go, I don't
care where I work at but I'vehad this situation where this
leader had reached out to me andwas like hey, I have an
(17:14):
employee who abandoned their joband I'm like what do you mean?
What do you mean abandon?
Right, because we have a policythat defines right job
abandonment.
Well, this person, she leftwithout telling me that she had
to go or even this.
She left.
I told her no, and she stillleft.
(17:35):
I said, well, what was herreason for leaving?
Well, she stated she had afamily emergency, she had to
pick her child up from school.
I said, well, I mean but this isthe thing, though I can't
believe that there are peoplewho feel or leaders, let me say
(17:58):
that who feel that they control,they can control their
employees like 100%, like, justbecause I say you can't leave,
you can't leave, like I didn'tauthorize you to leave, like
what in the world?
Speaker 2 (18:14):
Yeah, that's narcissistic leadership, right?
That's what's happening thereand they've gotten away with it
for so long.
And this is what I alwayscaution leaders you cannot lead
the way you used to lead becausepeople aren't going to put up
with that.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Right, this is not this generation.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
Yeah, it's only going to get you so far.
If you continue to do that, andI guarantee you they will find
a way, because they are notafraid to research, information
is at their hands.
They, you, they will find a way.
Because they are not afraid toresearch, information is at
their hands.
They will find a way to turnthat against you and you will be
sorry for it.
So leaders need to justunderstand.
Like you know, if you'resomeone who leads with this
authoritarian type of style orsomeone who leads with
(18:52):
narcissism, you're not going togo far, you're not going to last
.
So you better start making thechanges.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
Yeah, but you know, I coach my leaders, especially
when we're dealing with employeerelation matters like this, and
I coach them.
I let them know that number onewe can't control anyone.
We cannot control people.
They have free will.
We cannot control people, theyhave free will.
(19:32):
But I think what we have tolook at is did she follow the
process?
If she did not, what was theprocess?
Right for how these things arecommunicated?
Is it through text messages?
Is it through conversationswhere this person has to talk to
their team lead first, right?
So, setting those expectationsin the beginning to letting your
employees know hey, Iunderstand situations are going
(19:53):
to arise.
However, this is how I wouldlike for you to handle it or
approach it, so that I, as yourleader, can support you.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
Yeah, 100 percent.
I love, I love that, prince,that's absolutely.
There should be some type oflike SOP on how this is handled.
And then you know, of coursethere's case by case.
If someone says they have afamily emergency, automatically
in my mind I'm going to sayfamily first.
They have a family emergency,automatically in my mind I'm
going to say family first.
You know, but a lot of leadersand I would ask that leader like
(20:26):
okay.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
So what would you do if you were in that situation,
If you were in?
Speaker 2 (20:28):
that situation, what would you do?
And I would love to hear theiranswer, you know, because they
will probably say that I wouldhave left too.
And then you would say thereyou go.
And if they did it, they'reprobably not telling the truth,
because everyone knows why wework is to make sure our family
is okay, to make sure we canprovide, to make sure we can
sustain life.
(20:48):
So if we are not supporting that, why as leaders, then we're
failing our people, becauseearlier we said as a leader
people don't work for you, youwork for them, and that's how we
need to remember to look at it.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
Yes, as we talk about empathetic leadership, it
really makes a big impact inculture and morale of the team,
the department and theorganization.
Can you talk to me a little bitabout that?
Whether a leader is empatheticor not, how can empathetic
(21:23):
leadership affect an employee'smotivation, job satisfaction and
just really enjoying or justemployee morale within their
departments?
Speaker 2 (21:34):
I mean it's tremendous.
I remember on one of mydeployments I was assigned like
14 soldiers and they were youngsoldiers and I was told that
they just were unfit for themilitary, like they were failing
left and right, they didn'tknow their job, they were
getting behavioral, they'regetting written up all types of
stuff and I'm like, OK, why arethey still being deployed?
(21:55):
Because in my book, if theywere unfit, they should not have
that, that role, right, becauseit's important.
You're there for a year ormaybe more and you have a very
important job to do.
But yet here was my plight asthe leader.
So I heard what those, theprior leadership, said.
But then I decided to to go oneon one with each person in 15
(22:17):
minute conversations, to goone-on-one with each person in
15-minute conversations.
You know, hey, you know in yourreport it says this Can you
tell me more about why you'renot passing the PT test?
You know what's difficult foryou with this.
Can you tell me more about whyyou got what we call an Article
15?
That's like a behavioralcorrection in your record?
Can you tell me more about youknow why you're unimproficient
(22:37):
in your job, task and drills andthey?
would all say hey, we just we'renot supported, right, we would
try to ask questions, we wouldtell them we need more training,
this and that, and they justwould shut us off or they would
send us away or tell us to go toparade, rest and not say
anything.
So that's an unempatheticleader.
So I made it my task.
I asked how can I support you?
That's an unempathetic leader.
So I made it my task.
I asked how can I support you?
(22:58):
Right, for those who couldn'tpass the physical fitness test,
I found a person who was a PTstud is what we call them who
can train them on certain daysso that they can make sure that
they pass the next time.
I would sit with them when inlunch to make sure they ate well
.
Right, and I did it with them.
(23:19):
And then for people who weren'tin proficient in their jobs
Great, we have people who areexperts in this and they do it
day to day, day in and day out.
They let training.
So not only did we benefit thepeople who were struggling, but
we benefited and gave peopleleadership opportunities for
those who really excel.
And what that did was that justmade the whole team better,
because we didn't come at itfrom an individualistic
perspective.
We said we are a group, we'rebetter together, right?
(23:40):
So who wants to step up and dothis?
Great.
Who wants to?
Who needs the help?
Great.
And then we all help oneanother.
And that was my best group tilltoday, till I got out the
military.
So that's really the power of itis you tap into people when,
once they take ownership ofsomething, now they feel like
they are empowered.
Now they're willing to innovate, they're willing to think of
(24:03):
way better ways to do things,they're willing to go the extra
mile.
They're not tracking their workhours, looking at the clock
like, oh man, five o'clock hitthem out.
They're like, oh, let me finishthis thing.
They're bouncing ideas off oneanother.
The energy levels are high,communication is flowing, people
want to cross train, they wantto stay there, which retention
is an issue right now.
So there's a lot more to itthat you know.
(24:25):
Leaders or people making thedecisions I don't even want to
say leaders, but people makingthe decisions are just not seen.
They're too far away from theground to understand that.
That's really who gets you theresults.
That's the success, and thesooner we tap into empathy and
really connect with themreconnect with them again is the
sooner we'll start seeing someof these issues that are
(24:47):
happening in the corporate spacego away.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
Wow, man, I appreciate you sharing that
story and really diving in howyou were able to play a part in
their success, especially whenothers felt that they were or
they didn't fit Right.
Believe it or not, as an HRprofessional, I hear that all
the time they're not a good fitand I can automatically, when a
(25:14):
leader tells me that questionsjust start going off in my head
Like, okay, let's slow this downa little bit, because I really
want to understand what do youmean by?
You know this person doesn'tfit.
I had this leader one time andI'm not kidding.
They reached out to me and said, hey, this person doesn't fit.
(25:35):
They, you know, they're justnot working out.
And I said give me the reasonwhy.
And they were going through andgiving me some really good
examples and I asked thisquestion.
I said how long have they beenhere?
And, believe it or not, thatnew employee hadn't been here,
but not even three weeks.
(25:57):
And I said well, how do we, howdo we make that determination
right when they have a full 90day process, right?
And then I start askingquestions Okay, tell me, how did
you help this employee?
What was, what did the traininglook like?
Did you?
Do you have checkoff list?
(26:17):
Do you have X, y and Z?
And so going into all thosequestions and redirecting them
to say you know what, how can Ihelp?
You know, like changing theirmindset with partnering with the
team member, instead of justsaying this person doesn't fit,
and come to find out thatindividual had never, that
(26:40):
leader had never met with theiremployee.
They discovered that they didn'tfit because of the person that
was training them.
Well, a lot of times, if youhave a regular employee that is
training another employee, theydon't have the patience like
leaders do.
They don't have the patiencelike leaders do.
(27:01):
They don't have the training aswell to meet employees where
they are.
Just because someone has a greatresume does not mean that they
can come into this environmentand you think they're just going
to, you know, just startworking right then and there I
think that environments matterand environments are different
(27:21):
everywhere and we have to lookand, as leadership, we have to
look and we have to say am Idoing my part to making in
making sure that this person issuccessful instead of saying
they don't fit?
Speaker 2 (27:36):
Yeah, absolutely.
And you know that of sayingthey don't fit yeah, absolutely.
And that's a teachable momentfor that leader.
And it sounds like the leaderneeds to go through training as
well, right, Not just the personhe put in charge of being the
trainer, but the leader needs tounderstand how best to serve in
the leadership capacity.
And we're seeing this time andtime and time again and it goes
(27:58):
back to a lot of people callthem soft skills, I call them
foundational skills.
Goes back to emotionalintelligence, Goes back to
understanding communicationstyles with different people,
Goes back to recognizingbehavioral patterns, Goes back
to being proactive and askinghey, how can I best support you?
Do you have the resources youneed Doing check-ins as a leader
(28:18):
?
If that person was there threeweeks, why have they not met
with this employee, right?
So there are so many thingsthere that we can use as
teachable moments.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
Yeah.
So I want to ask you thisbefore we kind of get out of
here Absolutely, you know wetalked about, you know
empathetic leadership and reallyyou know giving some pointers
to employees.
Can you tell me or give us anexample of a situation where you
(28:48):
worked for a leader who lackedempathy?
You worked for a leader wholacked empathy and how did you?
Speaker 2 (28:59):
how did that experience affect you and how
did you overcome it?
Man, you know the military isnot known to be an emotionally
intelligent culture.
Right, they're working on itnow.
So I've had plenty of leadersthat were lax empathy, and the
reason, you know, it could havebeen a number of things.
You know, empathy has for along time been seen as weak.
When people think of empathy,they automatically associate
(29:23):
that with being walked over, notbeing listened to, being seen
as someone that you know you canget shunned off of, don't lack
authority, all these things.
But it's quite the opposite.
So what I've noticed in my timein corporate spaces with leaders
that lack empathy and in themilitary, was it really really
(29:44):
was a cancer to the team and itreally really made it.
So everyone had to walk oneggshells.
They couldn't provide feedbackRight when that leader had a bad
day, just come in and startyelling stuff that made no damn
sense.
They would bark orders becausethey wanted to look good, and
what that did was it reallycompletely destroyed the mission
(30:06):
effectiveness.
So it really, when you lackempathy as a leader we talked
about it before it reallycreates a snowball effect, and
not a good one.
We're talking about adestructive avalanche on your
people and the people that staythere.
They're probably just going tooperate at the baseline level to
do just enough, because theirdesire to do more was taken away
(30:28):
by you with your lack ofempathy.
So that's how it impacts anorganization.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
Wow, wow, wow, wow, wow.
Are there any last minute tipsthat you want to share with
employees or individuals thatare listening on how they really
navigate, you know, dealingwith empathetic leadership and
how they can overcome and win ontop?
Speaker 2 (30:59):
Yeah, absolutely.
The first thing is, if yourecognize that your leader is
not leading with empathy, againyou have influence so you can
have conversations what I liketo call a coaching conversation
where you're asking questionsand what you're doing with this
is you're kind of whatever ideayou have to help them be a
better leader.
(31:20):
You're kind of coaching them tomake them think it's their idea
.
So the leader.
Yeah, exactly Because we got tomanage up Right.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
We got to manage up.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
So you got to get with that leader and say, hey,
you mind if I set some time onyour 15 minutes on your calendar
?
You know, I would love to makesure that I'm doing everything
properly, or would love to learnmore about what you think, you
know, you would like to see fromme.
And on that conversation yousay, hey, whatever issue you had
.
Like, oh, you know, I know Ihave this project that I'm
working on that you assigned meand I'm really enjoying it, but
(31:54):
I'm running into this issue.
Do you think that you can do Xthing?
Right?
And they're going to be like ohyeah, is that what you need to?
You know they're starting tothink it's their idea and like
they're really, you're reallyasking for support.
But they're like, oh man, I'mgoing to be a great leader,
right, this is what they need, Igot it.
So you want to do things likethat, right, because it puts you
(32:14):
in control, but it puts theonus to perform on them, and
then it also makes them awarethat you're doing everything in
your power to be the best youcan and you're giving your all.
But you need their help, right.
So you want to do things likethat to really make sure that
the spotlight is on you for howgreat you're doing, but also to
make sure that you're gettingthe support you need.
(32:34):
You want to be transparentabout that.
Do not try to do everything onyour own.
If you find a place in a spot,even if it's like down the road,
mark that and say hey, I know,I looked at the project that
needs to get done and I'mthinking that in Q2, I may need
a little bit of support in thisway.
That shows initiatives, itshows that you know that you're
(32:56):
well-versed in the task and italso shows that you're not
afraid to get support.
And that's what a leader is, atrue leader.
So do that.
And then the other component Iwould say for the people
listening is that when you arein an employee, it's not.
It's a great opportunity foryou to learn right.
(33:17):
It's a great opportunity foryou to sit back and watch, find
out like what are the key traitsthat you see in leaders that
you want?
And then find out and see thetraits that you do not want and
throw those away so that you canbecome that great leader that
you wish you had right in thefuture for the next group.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
Wow, I love that.
I really do.
I love that because, really,what you're doing is, instead of
just sitting back and taking,you know, that experience, what
you're doing is strategizing onto how you can become a better
leader in the future.
But not only that.
I love how you say it.
(33:57):
You know, we got to manage upright and we, I think, as
employees, we too, have to beresponsible for coaching our
leaders and informing them andletting them know.
Sometimes may not it may not bedirect, um, but you can do it
directly and just say hey youknow, but you got to know your
(34:19):
leader right and and how youapproach them, because you don't
want this to turn into asituation where they they start
retaliating against you uh,passively, right, uh, but this
real.
But this topic really ties intosomething really important and
really how we should show up foreach other in the workplace.
(34:40):
It doesn't matter if you're aleader or if you're an
individual contributor, hourlyworker.
I think being empathetic andshowing empathy in the workplace
and with the people that youwork really matters.
And it really reminds me ofthis verse as we go into our
Encouraging Bible Scripture fortoday Colossians 3 and 12.
(35:04):
It says Therefore as God'schosen people, holy and dearly
loved, clothe yourselves withcompassion, kindness, humility,
gentleness and peace.
There I'm going to smack itright there Compassion, kindness
, humility, gentleness and peace.
(35:25):
And I think, as we take all ofthese five words and really
think about how we can implementthis in our daily career, our
daily work, that we are workingwith our leaders, working with
our team members and our peers,that we can show up for each
other and we can all win at theend of the day.
(35:48):
So thank you, john, for beingwith us on the show and really
just giving us a whole bunch ofnuggets.
Man, I'm going to go backthrough all of this and I'm
going to just jot stuff down man, as I continue to coach
(36:10):
individuals and people that Italk with day to day.
So if you are listening,hopefully you've gotten some
value from this episode.
We want you to like, we wantyou to share, we want you to
subscribe, we want you tocomment, rate the show.
We want you to also send inquestions that you have for the
(36:32):
show so we can answer them hereon the transparent HR podcast.
But you know what Uh we'll we?
We got some more episodes thatare coming out and I'm a super,
super excited uh about this yearand really all of your support.
So thank you all so much and wewill see you on the other side.
(36:53):
Peace.
Hey and welcome back to the Transparent HR podcast
where we bring realconversations to help you
navigate your career andworkplace challenges.
It's your host, prince Tate,and you are listening to another
episode.
Today we are talking aboutempathetic leadership and really
how it shapes workplace culture, impacts morale and what you
(00:23):
can do if your leader isn'tshowing empathy.
So for today, joining us isJavon Wooden.
He is the Chief ExecutiveOfficer and founder of Bright
(00:47):
Mind Consulting Group.
Javon is a dynamic speaker.
He's a certified coach, abusiness consultant specializing
in empathetic leadership andworkplace culture.
As an Army veteran and BronzeStar recipient, he brings a
unique perspective on resilienceleadership and creating
(01:09):
meaningful workplace change.
Javon, welcome to the podcast.
How's it going, man, man, Iappreciate you having me, prince
.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
It is going well and I know we're about to have a
phenomenal conversation.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Absolutely, man.
We met a few months months agoand you know we both have been
supporting each other onLinkedIn.
Thank you for you know, sharingmy episodes, but I'm super
excited that you are here, man.
I have a chief executiveofficer on my podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
You are a chief executive officer.
You running this show, man.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Hey, man, it's a mindset thing, right?
Absolutely Well, man.
Thank you so much.
Before we jump in, tell ussomething unique about yourself
that many people don't knowabout you.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Man.
Something unique about myselfis, as I've gotten older,
everyone thinks I'm an extrovertbecause I'm always like this,
talking to everyone.
But, I've actually grown to bemore to enjoy solitude a little
more.
And I think that would surprisea lot of people who know me.
They're like, yeah, okay, butno, truly, I have to recharge
(02:21):
after I do any in-depthconversations, after I speak,
after I go out into crowds thesedays.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
That is so interesting.
I think I'm an extrovert.
I'll just say that I lovepeople.
I told my boss Friday I said Ilove coming to work on Mondays.
Like I'm for it.
Look I'm ready.
Look, the weekend has gone by.
You know I've sat down and beenout, been at home most of the
(02:49):
times with my family and by thetime Monday come, I'm ready to
get out there.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Hey, your boss probably want to multiply you
right now.
Like, yeah, I need more of you.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
She's like Nope, not me, but that's why she got me
Right.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Right, absolutely, absolutely.
You got to know your strengths.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Yeah, so you know, I really, I really want to talk
about how did you start thisjourney of really talking about
empathetic leadership and andreally getting into your
business.
How did you, how did all thisget started?
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Man.
You know what I was in themilitary.
I was in the army for 12 yearsand this journey actually
started on my last deployment.
I did three tours overseas andwhen I was in Afghanistan, 2017,
I was like what can I do?
Like I don't want to do thisanymore.
I don't enjoy technology, Idon't want to protect ones and
(03:44):
zeros, so there has to be more.
And I Googled it.
I was like what can I do tohelp impact people?
Because that's really what Iwanted to do.
I had been told that I was goodat motivating people, good at
helping people find their valueand their strength and getting
them to actually take action.
So I was like, okay,motivational speaking, got it,
what else?
And when I Google, it was alist and I found coaching.
(04:06):
And not coaching in the senseof like when sports were
thinking about somebody whodraws up the plays and tells
them how to execute it, butcoaching in the sense of asking
people powerful questions andhelping them discover the
answers within themselves.
And when I did that, it justset me on this journey.
I got certified throughInternational Coaching
Federation.
I got a ton of assessmentcertifications, like DISC and
(04:29):
emotional intelligence quotient.
I wrote a book in 2021 calledOwn your Kingdom how to Control
your Mindset so you Control yourDestiny.
And going through a lot of liferight, having experiences,
being someone who has bouts withdepression and PTSD, being
someone who's gone down bouncedwith alcoholism and everything
else under the sun.
You know, I was just like allright.
(04:51):
How can I turn all of this andtake it along my journey to help
other people understand thatvulnerability is strength and
that if you care for yourselfand you care for others, god
will take care of you?
And that's what I do today.
That's how I found this calling.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
Man, I really appreciate how you walk this
through your journey, becauseindividuals always or people,
let's just say they always tryto figure out okay, how do you
find your purpose and how do youreally get into it.
And I often tell people thatyour purpose or your gifting is
not for you, right, it's forother people to indulge in and
(05:28):
to receive from it.
But you know there's ascripture that says that your
gifting will make room for you,right?
And so, while a lot of timespeople think, oh, you know my
gift, and sometimes it can beexhausting, sometimes it can be
tiresome, it can be exhausting,sometimes it can be tiresome,
but I think there's joy inknowing that someone out there
(05:50):
is looking for what you have tooffer.
And I just want to say thankyou for just diving into that
and really elevating and helpingpeople, as you said, coaching
people so they can.
You know, you ask those hardquestions, you ask those things
like they probably have neverthought about and really giving
(06:12):
them what they need to besuccessful.
So I just want to say kudos toyou, man, for just doing that.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
I appreciate you.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
I appreciate that, yeah, yeah.
So the real question.
A lot of people may not knowwhat empathetic leadership is.
Can you help us dive into thatand what is empathetic
leadership, and how can peoplehave a better understanding of
what this is?
Speaker 2 (06:41):
Yeah, absolutely Well .
The Merriam-Webster definitionof empathy really is about being
able to understand and processthe feelings and emotions of
others and influence them insome way, shape or form.
But my definition is a littlebit different for that.
I look at empathy as a way tounderstand how to best support
and provide the resources thatsomeone needs so they can be the
(07:02):
best version of themselves.
There was a quote that I heardone day.
I can't recall who said it, butthey said a butterfly can't see
their own wings.
And for me, that's what empathydoes it allows people to see
the beauty and the power withinthemselves that they may not
have ever tapped into.
So if you're an empatheticleader, you're not coming from
the place of what can I get fromyou.
(07:23):
You're coming from a place ofwhat can I get from you?
Speaker 1 (07:26):
You're coming from a place of how can I get the best
from you, right, how can youcome back?
Speaker 2 (07:30):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
It's servant leadership.
It's how can I do what I needto do, how can I support you,
how can I uplift you, how can Iinspire you, how can I influence
you so that you can do what youreally serving your purpose
right, whatever that looks like,and it's really the ability to
identify that, the role thatsomeone is embedded in.
That may not necessarily betheir strength, but you won't
(07:52):
know that unless you get to knowthem.
So understanding what motivatesthem, understanding their
drivers, understanding whatmakes them tick, understanding
their baseline.
How do they normally act?
What's their way ofcommunication like?
Really getting to know thatperson for who they are, not for
the job they are in you.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
You're already kicking this episode off.
Uh, just man, with somepowerful words, um, and, and
some some of these quotes thatI'm gonna have to steal, right?
hey, go ahead I don't mind atall but you know, when we talk
about leadership, right, and andone thing that you said was
(08:32):
really getting to know thepeople who work for you, or I
like to say, with you, becausegood leaders understand that you
don't work for me we worktogether as a team.
It just so happens that I havea title.
You have a title, right, butwhen we take this framework of
(08:54):
really being empathetic,learning our team members,
learning how they operate theirstrengths, their weaknesses, it
can really help us to be and toshow empathetic as we lead
people.
So how can employees?
Because this podcast is allabout helping employees, whether
(09:17):
you are a leader or anindividual contributor.
So how can you tell if yourleader truly cares about you or
if they're just saying the rightthings in the right moment?
Speaker 2 (09:29):
Yeah, I mean.
One thing I would say is thekey word is saying what are they
doing?
Because that's really where weknow if someone is just doing
something because they thinkit's going to get the most out
of you, or if they're actuallydoing it because they genuinely
care.
So if a leader says that, hey,we're going to get the most out
of you, or if they're actuallydoing it because they genuinely
care.
So if a leader says that, hey,we're going to have an open door
policy and that door isactually closed, meaning that if
(09:52):
you come to them with a problem, they get defensive and they
don't hear your feedback, thenyou know that you're not dealing
with an empathetic leader.
If a leader doesn't takeresponsibility for a decision
that went wrong, if they don'tsay, my bad, y'all, I got you on
the next one, or ask you howthey can better support you next
time, then you don't have anempathetic leader, right?
So what they're doing goes waybeyond what they're saying,
(10:14):
because the greatest leadersthey don't need to say a thing,
right, they show Wow.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
They just show it in their it Right, they just show
it in their action.
Man, that is great because youknow a lot of employees deal
with that challenge, like that'sa real challenge that they deal
with on a day-to-day basis.
Sometimes you don't know, can Itrust my leader or do they
(10:41):
really care about me right,other than just saying the right
thing?
And that kind of takes me tolike you know corporate
leadership, you know you knowthe right things to say and how
to say it in front of the rightpeople, but in actuality, can
you show me better than you cantell me right?
Speaker 2 (11:04):
That's it and you know what.
I want to make sure that thelisteners understand that.
You know leadership is not atitle Right.
A lot of people who are peoplemanagers.
They get put in these rolesbecause they are great
technically.
And that's where the disconnectis taking place Just because
you are great in doing the thingdoes not mean you will be great
leading the people.
(11:25):
And then you know, by no faultof some of these leaders, they
really never get the trainingand skills they need to learn
how to be better in thosesituations.
As an individual contributor,you are a leader you can
(11:47):
influence.
So I want everyone listening tounderstand that it's not about
the billet that you're servingin.
It's about the influence andimpact you're making.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
Man, you are spitting this stuff out, but you know
that is what leadership is allabout.
How can I influence you to beyour best self, to, you know,
get you to a point to where youare maximizing on your strengths
(12:16):
and you can grow even in yourweaknesses to become a better
professional?
A better human being is tobecome a better professional, a
better human being.
Again, as we talk aboutchallenges, right, that
employees face, one thing thatcomes to mind is and sometimes
leaders, they get so in theirheads that they're just leading,
(12:42):
leading, leading, leading.
I'm the manager, I'm the leader, and they stop to.
They don't stop to think like,hey, how can I be empathetic and
show that I truly care aboutthis person, even though you
know productivity still needs tokeep?
You know, keep going right.
You know the job needs to getdone right.
(13:04):
So what should an employee doif their manager really
dismisses personal challengesthat they may be facing, like
needing time off for work for afamily emergency?
Speaker 2 (13:16):
Yeah, I mean there's a number of steps.
So first thing, in the militarywe always said if you got a
problem, handle it at the lowestlevel.
So look to find time on thatleader's calendar.
Just say hey, can I get 15minutes?
First of all, you should havecheck-ins with this leader.
If this is your direct reportto this person, y'all should
establish some type of check-insystem.
(13:39):
And one way you can know if thatleader truly is empathetic is
do they keep pushing thatcheck-in back?
Do they keep pushing your thingback as if you're not important
?
Because if they do, you need tonip it in the bud.
You need to let your leaderknow I am valued just as much as
you are valued, because noone's going to treat you as well
as you should be treatingyourself.
(13:59):
But you have to set theprecedence.
So I want people to understandthat first.
The second thing is in thatconversation, if you can like,
learn your leader, learn theirbest communication style, their
tactics right.
Understand if there's somebodyyou need to get a little more
you know assertive with.
Or there's someone who gets itwhen you're a little more softer
in the tone, right.
(14:19):
So you got to know your leader.
Y'all should have thoseconversations hey, how do I
communicate, how do I provideyou feedback, vice versa?
That should be a proactiveconversation that you have, and
when you're in that conversationand you say, hey, you know, I
requested time off in thisexample and you declined it,
well, let me tell you why thisis urgent.
(14:40):
Give them the urgency, why it'surgent, and then see what they
respond with.
For instance, if it's urgentbecause someone has surgery and
you need to take care of them,that leader should, by all
accounts, say, okay, cool, I gotit.
If they do not, this is thetime you say okay, got it.
No point in getting upset, nopoint in trying to bump your
head against the wall.
That is that person.
(15:01):
Time to take it to the nextlevel.
All right, who can I talk thatI can get support to?
Right?
Maybe this is a could beanother leader that has
influence over the leader thatyou deal with Say, hey, you know
I had this conversation, Ithought this was going to go
this way, but it didn't.
What would you do?
Get some say from them, whatwould they do, how would they
(15:21):
handle that situation?
And then, once you get that, ifit aligns with who you are, you
can try that, depending on howmuch time you have to get this.
But you don't want to escalateit all the way up until you've
tried what we call theescalation of force.
So you want to try handling atthe lowest level.
Next step is go to someone else.
You can get some informationand insights to make sure you're
(15:42):
doing it properly.
Make sure you're going about itthe right way, because
sometimes our emotions can getin our way too, especially in
this situation, or whateverdepartment you have that can
represent you in that situationand circumstance.
But you want to make sure thatyou know the policies on that
(16:03):
too.
Don't just do it because youthink that is the right thing.
Learn the policy.
Say this is the spot where itsays that you have to give me
time, right, so you might haveto pull that card and understand
that you also may have to becomfortable with that.
This person may not treat youthe way that they used to, or it
may start to spark.
I know they say retaliation isnot, you know, welcomed, but you
(16:26):
got to be on the watch for thatand start documenting if
necessary.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
Yeah, so you mentioned HR, right, and I was
going to go into the story how alot of times employees they do
have family emergencies.
You know emergencies may happenwith you know, their child, you
know needing to go home fromschool, right, and I've seen
(16:51):
certain situations where a lotof leaders sometimes aren't
empathetic to their employees.
I had this one situation ithappens wherever I go, I don't
care where I work at but I'vehad this situation where this
leader had reached out to me andwas like hey, I have an
(17:14):
employee who abandoned their joband I'm like what do you mean?
What do you mean abandon?
Right, because we have a policythat defines right job
abandonment.
Well, this person, she leftwithout telling me that she had
to go or even this.
She left.
I told her no, and she stillleft.
(17:35):
I said, well, what was herreason for leaving?
Well, she stated she had afamily emergency, she had to
pick her child up from school.
I said, well, I mean but this isthe thing, though I can't
believe that there are peoplewho feel or leaders, let me say
(17:58):
that who feel that they control,they can control their
employees like 100%, like, justbecause I say you can't leave,
you can't leave, like I didn'tauthorize you to leave, like
what in the world?
Speaker 2 (18:14):
Yeah, that's narcissistic leadership, right?
That's what's happening thereand they've gotten away with it
for so long.
And this is what I alwayscaution leaders you cannot lead
the way you used to lead becausepeople aren't going to put up
with that.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Right, this is not this generation.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
Yeah, it's only going to get you so far.
If you continue to do that, andI guarantee you they will find
a way, because they are notafraid to research, information
is at their hands.
They, you, they will find a way.
Because they are not afraid toresearch, information is at
their hands.
They will find a way to turnthat against you and you will be
sorry for it.
So leaders need to justunderstand.
Like you know, if you'resomeone who leads with this
authoritarian type of style orsomeone who leads with
(18:52):
narcissism, you're not going togo far, you're not going to last
.
So you better start making thechanges.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
Yeah, but you know, I coach my leaders, especially
when we're dealing with employeerelation matters like this, and
I coach them.
I let them know that number onewe can't control anyone.
We cannot control people.
They have free will.
We cannot control people, theyhave free will.
(19:32):
But I think what we have tolook at is did she follow the
process?
If she did not, what was theprocess?
Right for how these things arecommunicated?
Is it through text messages?
Is it through conversationswhere this person has to talk to
their team lead first, right?
So, setting those expectationsin the beginning to letting your
employees know hey, Iunderstand situations are going
(19:53):
to arise.
However, this is how I wouldlike for you to handle it or
approach it, so that I, as yourleader, can support you.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
Yeah, 100 percent.
I love, I love that, prince,that's absolutely.
There should be some type oflike SOP on how this is handled.
And then you know, of coursethere's case by case.
If someone says they have afamily emergency, automatically
in my mind I'm going to sayfamily first.
They have a family emergency,automatically in my mind I'm
going to say family first.
You know, but a lot of leadersand I would ask that leader like
(20:26):
okay.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
So what would you do if you were in that situation,
If you were in?
Speaker 2 (20:28):
that situation, what would you do?
And I would love to hear theiranswer, you know, because they
will probably say that I wouldhave left too.
And then you would say thereyou go.
And if they did it, they'reprobably not telling the truth,
because everyone knows why wework is to make sure our family
is okay, to make sure we canprovide, to make sure we can
sustain life.
(20:48):
So if we are not supporting that, why as leaders, then we're
failing our people, becauseearlier we said as a leader
people don't work for you, youwork for them, and that's how we
need to remember to look at it.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
Yes, as we talk about empathetic leadership, it
really makes a big impact inculture and morale of the team,
the department and theorganization.
Can you talk to me a little bitabout that?
Whether a leader is empatheticor not, how can empathetic
(21:23):
leadership affect an employee'smotivation, job satisfaction and
just really enjoying or justemployee morale within their
departments?
Speaker 2 (21:34):
I mean it's tremendous.
I remember on one of mydeployments I was assigned like
14 soldiers and they were youngsoldiers and I was told that
they just were unfit for themilitary, like they were failing
left and right, they didn'tknow their job, they were
getting behavioral, they'regetting written up all types of
stuff and I'm like, OK, why arethey still being deployed?
(21:55):
Because in my book, if theywere unfit, they should not have
that, that role, right, becauseit's important.
You're there for a year ormaybe more and you have a very
important job to do.
But yet here was my plight asthe leader.
So I heard what those, theprior leadership, said.
But then I decided to to go oneon one with each person in 15
(22:17):
minute conversations, to goone-on-one with each person in
15-minute conversations.
You know, hey, you know in yourreport it says this Can you
tell me more about why you'renot passing the PT test?
You know what's difficult foryou with this.
Can you tell me more about whyyou got what we call an Article
15?
That's like a behavioralcorrection in your record?
Can you tell me more about youknow why you're unimproficient
(22:37):
in your job, task and drills andthey?
would all say hey, we just we'renot supported, right, we would
try to ask questions, we wouldtell them we need more training,
this and that, and they justwould shut us off or they would
send us away or tell us to go toparade, rest and not say
anything.
So that's an unempatheticleader.
So I made it my task.
I asked how can I support you?
That's an unempathetic leader.
So I made it my task.
I asked how can I support you?
(22:58):
Right, for those who couldn'tpass the physical fitness test,
I found a person who was a PTstud is what we call them who
can train them on certain daysso that they can make sure that
they pass the next time.
I would sit with them when inlunch to make sure they ate well
.
Right, and I did it with them.
(23:19):
And then for people who weren'tin proficient in their jobs
Great, we have people who areexperts in this and they do it
day to day, day in and day out.
They let training.
So not only did we benefit thepeople who were struggling, but
we benefited and gave peopleleadership opportunities for
those who really excel.
And what that did was that justmade the whole team better,
because we didn't come at itfrom an individualistic
perspective.
We said we are a group, we'rebetter together, right?
(23:40):
So who wants to step up and dothis?
Great.
Who wants to?
Who needs the help?
Great.
And then we all help oneanother.
And that was my best group tilltoday, till I got out the
military.
So that's really the power of itis you tap into people when,
once they take ownership ofsomething, now they feel like
they are empowered.
Now they're willing to innovate, they're willing to think of
(24:03):
way better ways to do things,they're willing to go the extra
mile.
They're not tracking their workhours, looking at the clock
like, oh man, five o'clock hitthem out.
They're like, oh, let me finishthis thing.
They're bouncing ideas off oneanother.
The energy levels are high,communication is flowing, people
want to cross train, they wantto stay there, which retention
is an issue right now.
So there's a lot more to itthat you know.
(24:25):
Leaders or people making thedecisions I don't even want to
say leaders, but people makingthe decisions are just not seen.
They're too far away from theground to understand that.
That's really who gets you theresults.
That's the success, and thesooner we tap into empathy and
really connect with themreconnect with them again is the
sooner we'll start seeing someof these issues that are
(24:47):
happening in the corporate spacego away.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
Wow, man, I appreciate you sharing that
story and really diving in howyou were able to play a part in
their success, especially whenothers felt that they were or
they didn't fit Right.
Believe it or not, as an HRprofessional, I hear that all
the time they're not a good fitand I can automatically, when a
(25:14):
leader tells me that questionsjust start going off in my head
Like, okay, let's slow this downa little bit, because I really
want to understand what do youmean by?
You know this person doesn'tfit.
I had this leader one time andI'm not kidding.
They reached out to me and said, hey, this person doesn't fit.
(25:35):
They, you know, they're justnot working out.
And I said give me the reasonwhy.
And they were going through andgiving me some really good
examples and I asked thisquestion.
I said how long have they beenhere?
And, believe it or not, thatnew employee hadn't been here,
but not even three weeks.
(25:57):
And I said well, how do we, howdo we make that determination
right when they have a full 90day process, right?
And then I start askingquestions Okay, tell me, how did
you help this employee?
What was, what did the traininglook like?
Did you?
Do you have checkoff list?
(26:17):
Do you have X, y and Z?
And so going into all thosequestions and redirecting them
to say you know what, how can Ihelp?
You know, like changing theirmindset with partnering with the
team member, instead of justsaying this person doesn't fit,
and come to find out thatindividual had never, that
(26:40):
leader had never met with theiremployee.
They discovered that they didn'tfit because of the person that
was training them.
Well, a lot of times, if youhave a regular employee that is
training another employee, theydon't have the patience like
leaders do.
They don't have the patiencelike leaders do.
(27:01):
They don't have the training aswell to meet employees where
they are.
Just because someone has a greatresume does not mean that they
can come into this environmentand you think they're just going
to, you know, just startworking right then and there I
think that environments matterand environments are different
(27:21):
everywhere and we have to lookand, as leadership, we have to
look and we have to say am Idoing my part to making in
making sure that this person issuccessful instead of saying
they don't fit?
Speaker 2 (27:36):
Yeah, absolutely.
And you know that of sayingthey don't fit yeah, absolutely.
And that's a teachable momentfor that leader.
And it sounds like the leaderneeds to go through training as
well, right, Not just the personhe put in charge of being the
trainer, but the leader needs tounderstand how best to serve in
the leadership capacity.
And we're seeing this time andtime and time again and it goes
(27:58):
back to a lot of people callthem soft skills, I call them
foundational skills.
Goes back to emotionalintelligence, Goes back to
understanding communicationstyles with different people,
Goes back to recognizingbehavioral patterns, Goes back
to being proactive and askinghey, how can I best support you?
Do you have the resources youneed Doing check-ins as a leader
(28:18):
?
If that person was there threeweeks, why have they not met
with this employee, right?
So there are so many thingsthere that we can use as
teachable moments.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
Yeah.
So I want to ask you thisbefore we kind of get out of
here Absolutely, you know wetalked about, you know
empathetic leadership and reallyyou know giving some pointers
to employees.
Can you tell me or give us anexample of a situation where you
(28:48):
worked for a leader who lackedempathy?
You worked for a leader wholacked empathy and how did you?
Speaker 2 (28:59):
how did that experience affect you and how
did you overcome it?
Man, you know the military isnot known to be an emotionally
intelligent culture.
Right, they're working on itnow.
So I've had plenty of leadersthat were lax empathy, and the
reason, you know, it could havebeen a number of things.
You know, empathy has for along time been seen as weak.
When people think of empathy,they automatically associate
(29:23):
that with being walked over, notbeing listened to, being seen
as someone that you know you canget shunned off of, don't lack
authority, all these things.
But it's quite the opposite.
So what I've noticed in my timein corporate spaces with leaders
that lack empathy and in themilitary, was it really really
(29:44):
was a cancer to the team and itreally really made it.
So everyone had to walk oneggshells.
They couldn't provide feedbackRight when that leader had a bad
day, just come in and startyelling stuff that made no damn
sense.
They would bark orders becausethey wanted to look good, and
what that did was it reallycompletely destroyed the mission
(30:06):
effectiveness.
So it really, when you lackempathy as a leader we talked
about it before it reallycreates a snowball effect, and
not a good one.
We're talking about adestructive avalanche on your
people and the people that staythere.
They're probably just going tooperate at the baseline level to
do just enough, because theirdesire to do more was taken away
(30:28):
by you with your lack ofempathy.
So that's how it impacts anorganization.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
Wow, wow, wow, wow, wow.
Are there any last minute tipsthat you want to share with
employees or individuals thatare listening on how they really
navigate, you know, dealingwith empathetic leadership and
how they can overcome and win ontop?
Speaker 2 (30:59):
Yeah, absolutely.
The first thing is, if yourecognize that your leader is
not leading with empathy, againyou have influence so you can
have conversations what I liketo call a coaching conversation
where you're asking questionsand what you're doing with this
is you're kind of whatever ideayou have to help them be a
better leader.
(31:20):
You're kind of coaching them tomake them think it's their idea
.
So the leader.
Yeah, exactly Because we got tomanage up Right.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
We got to manage up.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
So you got to get with that leader and say, hey,
you mind if I set some time onyour 15 minutes on your calendar
?
You know, I would love to makesure that I'm doing everything
properly, or would love to learnmore about what you think, you
know, you would like to see fromme.
And on that conversation yousay, hey, whatever issue you had
.
Like, oh, you know, I know Ihave this project that I'm
working on that you assigned meand I'm really enjoying it, but
(31:54):
I'm running into this issue.
Do you think that you can do Xthing?
Right?
And they're going to be like ohyeah, is that what you need to?
You know they're starting tothink it's their idea and like
they're really, you're reallyasking for support.
But they're like, oh man, I'mgoing to be a great leader,
right, this is what they need, Igot it.
So you want to do things likethat, right, because it puts you
(32:14):
in control, but it puts theonus to perform on them, and
then it also makes them awarethat you're doing everything in
your power to be the best youcan and you're giving your all.
But you need their help, right.
So you want to do things likethat to really make sure that
the spotlight is on you for howgreat you're doing, but also to
make sure that you're gettingthe support you need.
(32:34):
You want to be transparentabout that.
Do not try to do everything onyour own.
If you find a place in a spot,even if it's like down the road,
mark that and say hey, I know,I looked at the project that
needs to get done and I'mthinking that in Q2, I may need
a little bit of support in thisway.
That shows initiatives, itshows that you know that you're
(32:56):
well-versed in the task and italso shows that you're not
afraid to get support.
And that's what a leader is, atrue leader.
So do that.
And then the other component Iwould say for the people
listening is that when you arein an employee, it's not.
It's a great opportunity foryou to learn right.
(33:17):
It's a great opportunity foryou to sit back and watch, find
out like what are the key traitsthat you see in leaders that
you want?
And then find out and see thetraits that you do not want and
throw those away so that you canbecome that great leader that
you wish you had right in thefuture for the next group.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
Wow, I love that.
I really do.
I love that because, really,what you're doing is, instead of
just sitting back and taking,you know, that experience, what
you're doing is strategizing onto how you can become a better
leader in the future.
But not only that.
I love how you say it.
(33:57):
You know, we got to manage upright and we, I think, as
employees, we too, have to beresponsible for coaching our
leaders and informing them andletting them know.
Sometimes may not it may not bedirect, um, but you can do it
directly and just say hey youknow, but you got to know your
(34:19):
leader right and and how youapproach them, because you don't
want this to turn into asituation where they they start
retaliating against you uh,passively, right, uh, but this
real.
But this topic really ties intosomething really important and
really how we should show up foreach other in the workplace.
(34:40):
It doesn't matter if you're aleader or if you're an
individual contributor, hourlyworker.
I think being empathetic andshowing empathy in the workplace
and with the people that youwork really matters.
And it really reminds me ofthis verse as we go into our
Encouraging Bible Scripture fortoday Colossians 3 and 12.
(35:04):
It says Therefore as God'schosen people, holy and dearly
loved, clothe yourselves withcompassion, kindness, humility,
gentleness and peace.
There I'm going to smack itright there Compassion, kindness
, humility, gentleness and peace.
(35:25):
And I think, as we take all ofthese five words and really
think about how we can implementthis in our daily career, our
daily work, that we are workingwith our leaders, working with
our team members and our peers,that we can show up for each
other and we can all win at theend of the day.
(35:48):
So thank you, john, for beingwith us on the show and really
just giving us a whole bunch ofnuggets.
Man, I'm going to go backthrough all of this and I'm
going to just jot stuff down man, as I continue to coach
(36:10):
individuals and people that Italk with day to day.
So if you are listening,hopefully you've gotten some
value from this episode.
We want you to like, we wantyou to share, we want you to
subscribe, we want you tocomment, rate the show.
We want you to also send inquestions that you have for the
(36:32):
show so we can answer them hereon the transparent HR podcast.
But you know what Uh we'll we?
We got some more episodes thatare coming out and I'm a super,
super excited uh about this yearand really all of your support.
So thank you all so much and wewill see you on the other side.
(36:53):
Peace.
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