October 27, 2025 • 39 mins
We dig into why workplace communication often fails, how family patterns shape our style, and what people can do to improve communication without waiting for perfect conditions. Colette Revere, founder of Open360™, shares a simple, repeatable method for future-focused feedback and explains why repair always beats perfection.
✅ Roots of workplace miscommunication in family norms
✅ “Little truth” vs. “Big Truth” to reduce power struggles
✅ Future-focused feedback with consent and support
✅ Stopping HR escalations through early coaching
✅ Practical scripts for starting tough talks
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🔗 Connect with Colette
Find Collette on LinkedIn and at myopen360.com for psychologically healthy feedback systems.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
Let's be honest, some people's communication at
(00:02):
work stops.
You send three paragraph emailswhen one sentence would suffice,
you avoid that toughconversation hoping it would
just disappear, or you'll say,I'm fine, when you're clearly
not, and then HR gets involved,all because two grown adults
could not communicate.
(00:23):
Today, we're talking about whycommunication in the workplace
is so dysfunctional.
Why is it so hard for people totalk to each other like adults?
And most importantly, what canwe do about it?
Joining me today is someone whoknows this topic inside and out.
Colette Revere, the founder ofOpen360, a psychology-backed
(00:47):
change management consultancythat helps organizations improve
performance by aligning people,systems, and communication.
At Open360, they blendindividual development with
organizational strategy so teamsdon't just move forward, they
actually go stronger together.
(01:08):
So buckle up because today we'renot sugarcoating anything.
We're breaking down the truth.
We're being honest, we're beingtransparent about why your
communication sucks and also howto finally fix it.
So tune in and we'll see you onthe episode.
(01:36):
Hey, and welcome back to theTransparent Nature Podcast,
where we bring realconversations to help you
navigate your career andworkplace challenges.
It's your host, Prince Tate, andI want to thank you for
listening as well as supportingthe Transparent Nature Podcast.
So I'm really excited for theguest we have today.
(01:59):
Her name is Colette Revere, andshe's here with us, and we're
about to dive into whycommunication at work, why does
it suck?
Why is it such a mess?
So, Colette, welcome to theshow.
How are you?
SPEAKER_00 (02:14):
Thank you so much.
I'm doing great, and I'm reallyglad to be here.
SPEAKER_01 (02:19):
Man, thank you so much.
You know, this is a conversationthat we need to have
communication, because whetheryou're at work or even outside
of work, there always seems tobe a gap regarding
communication, right?
And so this is why we need tohave this conversation today.
Um, and especially from an HRperspective with my background,
(02:41):
yeah.
Uh this is where the gap is.
We always see that, you knowwhat, this issue or this
employee relation matter couldhave been avoided if we would
have effectively had aconversation.
Let's get to the point of it,right?
Why do people struggle so muchto have effective conversations
(03:04):
at work?
Why does it seem that peopledon't want to communicate,
especially when it when there'sconflict in the workplace?
SPEAKER_00 (03:14):
Yes.
It's like a giant game ofchicken, and nobody wants to
admit that they don't know howto do it, but no one knows how
to do it well.
To be honest, our families wereour first classrooms when it
comes to communication.
And I haven't met a singleperson who gives that a 10 out
(03:35):
of 10 experience, you know?
And so growing up, we uh youlearn things from our families
and internalize things that wedon't even realize.
And so a lot of people growingup are just trying to be better
than their mom or just liketheir dad or whatever.
Uh the comparison is in thefamily.
(03:57):
And then you go into a workplaceand you're interacting with all
these different people who havetotally different internalized
ideas and norms.
And of course, we don't know howto communicate with them.
We haven't even done theself-discovery of like
understanding how our lens iseven shaped to know how to then
(04:20):
um accept what somebody else isbringing in versus changing our
own perspective around things.
So I think um it sounds big andhard to do, and it's actually
just takes practice and a littlebit of knowledge and
self-awareness to get started.
But I think leaders inparticular struggle with this
(04:41):
because they haven't beentrained in organizations often
to do this communication, andyet they're responsible for
really doing some heavy dutycommunication with their teams
and employees.
SPEAKER_02 (04:57):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (04:57):
And they don't know how.
And of course, they're not gonnaraise their hand and be like,
hey, like HR, I think I needsome communication training.
Nobody's gonna do that becauseyou know what I call that?
SPEAKER_01 (05:07):
I call that soft skills.
SPEAKER_00 (05:09):
Yes, right.
SPEAKER_01 (05:10):
That's a part of the soft skills that people often
look overlook, right?
That's right.
I did a couple couple episodesago, I did an episode on
skilling you softly, right?
And it really talks about, youknow, what are some of those
soft skills that we need.
Again, we we often see it inorganizations where they promote
(05:33):
the people who are good attechnical skills, right?
Uh, if if you know how to run amachine and you learn the
machine, now they feel like,okay, now you can lead people
who are working on the machine,right?
Right.
And we forget, hey, when we talkabout leadership, right?
Uh great leaders are those whocan influence uh people who work
(05:58):
under them or with them to do orto reach a goal.
Okay.
And so if you do not have softskills, and one of those things
we call is emotionalintelligence as well, yeah.
How can you lead effectively?
SPEAKER_02 (06:13):
Oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_01 (06:14):
How can you communicate effectively when you
don't even understand, like yousaid, how you communicate?
What is your communicationstyle?
How do you and and this is sointeresting because you said
that it starts at home, right?
It starts at home.
And so then you have to look at,okay, how did you grow up?
(06:36):
Did you have a mother?
Did you have a father?
SPEAKER_02 (06:38):
That's right.
SPEAKER_01 (06:39):
Did they communicate effectively?
Did they even show love to oneanother, right?
And so we go into all of this,and I know I'm still in your
shine, but we go into all ofthis, right?
SPEAKER_02 (06:50):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (06:51):
And then we show up at work and we we don't know
where we stand.
SPEAKER_00 (06:57):
No, right?
SPEAKER_01 (06:58):
So you said it starts with self-what
reflection, self-awareness,self-awareness, knowing where
you are.
Talk a little bit more aboutthat.
SPEAKER_00 (07:06):
Yeah, it's uh I recently over the last couple of
years have really refined atraining around that that I
think is really good.
It's incredible to see.
I mean, you can just see theimpact of just a single session
that people are going throughwhere we have them evaluate
(07:28):
their history.
What were the messages youlearned about communication
growing up?
And to your point, what did youlearn about conflict and how you
deal with conflict?
What did you learn about howappropriate it is to express a
need?
Because you to when you grow upin a home where you're not able
to express what you need, andyou are a leader now in an
(07:50):
organization, often you don'tallow other people to do the
things you don't allow yourselfto do.
So as a leader who's notcomfortable expressing needs,
they're not gonna be great withtheir people expressing needs as
well.
So it's just really evaluatingthat piece and also looking for
(08:11):
patterns.
So across relationships, whatseems to come up that maybe
confuses you, like you don't getwhy people have this response
about you, or but it but itcomes up over and over again,
like those are the places thatwe can see, oh, I may need to do
some rethinking about this.
(08:31):
Um, but in terms of how to doit, what's beautiful about it is
it's really a perspective shift,and it doesn't take long to get
it.
Once you have this aha momentwhere you're looking at your
history and you're looking atwhat you're doing now, and
things are making sense aboutwhy you respond the way that you
do, then the behavior change isreally natural.
(08:55):
It's not as much of a struggleas people think it will be.
SPEAKER_01 (08:59):
Wow.
That that is so deep.
I think about my how I grew up.
I had a father, I had a mother,and this is a really vulnerable
moment, right?
Um, my mother and father, theydivorced when I was in
elementary.
And my father, you talked aboutmilitary.
(09:21):
My father, he did 25 years inthe military.
SPEAKER_00 (09:24):
Oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_01 (09:25):
And so on top of that, he was a pastor.
And so you think about respect,right?
Yeah, how do you respect, likewhen you're in the military, you
cannot talk back, right?
And so I grew up, like, I can'ttalk back to people, right?
And I mean, there's a sense ofrespect, but then there's also a
(09:46):
sense of like when do youactually speak up?
Right?
And so sometimes, and again,this is a very vulnerable
moment.
Sometimes I even have challengeswith that, right?
Like I may be thinking, no, thesky is blue, but you're telling
me because you're a VP ofwhatever, the sky is gray.
(10:08):
And I'm like, no, the sky isblue.
SPEAKER_00 (10:10):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (10:11):
Right?
And and and so then I start tothink, like, okay, I start
getting nervous because I know Ineed to respect the hierarchy.
SPEAKER_00 (10:22):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (10:23):
But then on my the other side of me, it's like uh
angel over here and the devilover here, right?
And then I'm like, no, you needto speak up.
SPEAKER_02 (10:31):
Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_01 (10:31):
Yeah, I'm like, ah, but if I speak, then I start
running through, okay, what whatwhat are the effects if I do
this, if I don't do this?
And then I think about, okay,you know what, is it even worth
it?
SPEAKER_00 (10:44):
No.
Well, because internally youhave to go through so much to
even get to the place of doingit that you do, you talk
yourself out of it.
I so appreciate yourvulnerability with that.
And it's I love that you have atransparent HR podcast now.
So it's such a from feelinglike, oh, I can't speak up, oh,
(11:07):
it's a harder thing for me todo.
And now you, that is yourmission in some ways, is to be
transparent and to speak up andto help other people do that as
well.
I'm with you.
I grew up in a home with abuse.
This is kind of how my journeystarted to becoming a therapist
and then doing family systemswork and then moving it into the
(11:29):
workplace of, you know, the youeven the hard lessons, even the
lessons that are not the onesthat you really want to carry on
through adulthood, are goodinformation about how other
people might be responding, howthey might be perceiving things,
(11:50):
because um you just don't knowthe environment that people have
been shaped in.
And I think for when you'retalking about the sky is blue
versus the sky is gray, that'sso tricky.
And one of the things we talkabout in our training at Open360
is um the big T truth and thelittle T truth.
(12:15):
So we're assuming well, thelittle T truth is your personal
truth, and everybody has one.
And there are some people whowill just say the sky is gray
just because I'm in charge and Iget to say what it is, but many
times there are people who justtotally see things different
than us, and we're on twodifferent sides of a thing, and
(12:38):
we're just like legitimatelyeach seeing things very, very
differently.
I think, especially in our worldtoday, that is incredibly
relatable.
And then there's this biggertruth that holds space for
everybody's truth.
Like, in order for you to beright, I don't have to be wrong.
(12:59):
We can both 100% believe what webelieve, and your belief doesn't
negate mine at all.
And and that is the space thatwhen people learn to navigate,
okay, I respect that this isyour truth, even though I
totally don't that's totally notmy truth, and okay, this is my
(13:19):
truth, and I respect that.
When you can start communicatingfrom that place, that's where
real, real progress begins.
SPEAKER_01 (13:30):
Wow.
Man, that this is a lot of goodinformation.
And you know, let's kind of pullfrom your background.
So from a psychology standpoint,and we probably already talked
about it, but from a psychologystandpoint, when we see
communication breakdowns, whatdoes that really tell us?
SPEAKER_00 (13:49):
Well, that's a good question.
It's it tells us we're human.
I mean, there is no way.
This is this is what I tellpeople, you only ever have
control of 50% of theconversation.
Like I'm good at this, and Istill have really bad
conversations.
It doesn't, there is nopinnacle.
(14:10):
There's no there's no moment inyour life will you where you
will be above this problem ofmiscommunication ever.
It will always be a risk inevery conversation that you go
into, and that's what's so scaryfor people, I think.
And that's why when we uh teachpeople, we focus on this is
(14:33):
gonna happen.
Perfection is not an option.
So let's look at what good lookslike.
And what good looks like isbeing able to go back and repair
when things go wrong, becausethey will.
SPEAKER_01 (14:47):
Wow.
So, you know, I I say thatearlier.
A lot of times in the workplace,as HR professionals, we often
see that um there's a common gapin terms of employee relations
and what the actual issue is.
SPEAKER_02 (15:02):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (15:03):
Right?
Uh sometimes team members maycome and say, hey, I'm having an
issue with another team member,and my manager won't do anything
about it.
And one of the things one of thequestions I ask is, well, um,
okay, let's talk about this.
Have you talked with that personto let them know that you do not
like them calling you big back?
(15:26):
I'm just gonna put that inthere.
Yeah.
Right?
SPEAKER_00 (15:30):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (15:31):
And I'm using that example because it's a real
example.
SPEAKER_00 (15:34):
Oh my gosh.
I'm never amazed.
SPEAKER_01 (15:39):
And so again, like, have you talked to that person,
say, hey, I mean, what ifthey're just playing with you
and and thought that that's justhow you communicate?
SPEAKER_00 (15:49):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (15:50):
And like, oh, then they get really small and they
go, um, no, I haven't talked tothem.
And so let's do this first.
Let's have a conversation withthem, and and then I'll ask
them, do you want to practicethe conversation?
SPEAKER_00 (16:06):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (16:07):
Because I can't be the gap for you.
No, you have to speak up, right?
So again, as we talk about um,you know, miscommunication and
it's resulting into employeerelation concerns, how can we as
employees and leaders avoidhaving to escalate an issue that
(16:30):
we can really address ourselves?
SPEAKER_00 (16:32):
Yeah.
I think it starts with scalingup because I think it really
starts with this acknowledgementthat it doesn't matter whether
you're a leader or employee,people are kind of equally bad
at this, and it's okay.
This is just like, why wouldn'twe be?
We haven't learned to do thingsdifferently.
So I think it starts with justthe acknowledgement and the
(16:55):
ability to say, it's okay if wedon't know how to do this well.
That's the place we're gonnastart to learn to do this well.
And unfortunately, what I see,and I'm curious what you see, is
that um people are too afraid tosay they don't know, so they
never learn and grow becausethey're not willing to admit
(17:18):
that they don't know.
And and and their companies arejust kind of their companies are
aware that it's a skill gap, butit's one of those things because
it's a soft skill.
They feel like, well, we don'tneed to invest in that right
now.
We're gonna kick that can downthe road a little bit.
And so I think for leaders andemployees who want to learn to
(17:39):
do better, I think it's aboutasking your leader, asking your
organization, can I get helpwith this?
Can you bring in some supportand teach us really how to do
this?
SPEAKER_01 (17:50):
Wow.
But let me ask you this.
Why do you why do you thinkpeople avoid tough
conversations?
SPEAKER_00 (17:59):
Oh, that's a good question.
SPEAKER_01 (18:01):
Because oftentimes we we see that you know, people
are okay with like sharing goodnews.
SPEAKER_02 (18:07):
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (18:08):
Yeah.
They can't wait to share goodnews.
But when it when it comes tohaving crucial or tough
conversations, they're reallyavoidant, right?
So what is, I mean, what doesthat really do with trust and
even team dynamics?
SPEAKER_00 (18:23):
I have my perspective on this.
And I don't know, this is justbased on my experience, but I
think that people often avoidconflict in those conversations
because they're afraid somethingis going to be revealed about
them that they don't want to berevealed.
So, what I mean by that is Ithink we all go through this
(18:48):
world.
I'm I am gonna say all, eventhough that's a stretch to say
like everybody in the world, butuh feeling not good enough.
SPEAKER_01 (18:57):
Wow.
SPEAKER_00 (18:58):
And so we especially in our professional life go
through our days like hopingpeople don't see the places that
we feel insecure, hoping peopledon't notice the ways that we're
not showing up, and we're justkind of creating the narrative
about who we are or we're tryingto.
(19:20):
And when you go into a conflictsituation where you're bringing
up somebody else's thing thatthey're afraid to see or be
called out on because it's hardfor everyone, then you risk
somebody flipping it around andcoming back at you and going,
Well, you did this and you dothat.
(19:42):
And it's like opening this wholecan of worms that feels
completely risky, and you justlike to your point earlier, you
have to manufacture so muchenergy to do it that you just
talk yourself out of it and tellyourself that it's easier and
that the problem will justresolve itself if you don't
address it.
SPEAKER_01 (20:01):
I love that you brought that up because that's
another real life example.
You know, I had a leader, she umshe was trying to really coach
and talk to an employee aboutsomething that they were doing.
And in turn, the employee thensaid, Well, you do it too.
(20:22):
I know, yeah, and when I heardthat, I was like, Oh my god,
this is about to go down.
And so, look, even HRprofessional, you know, I I have
fun in my brain.
That's right.
I may not share everything, itmay not come out, but in my
brain, I'm like, wow.
I'm like, she just told you.
(20:43):
And then and then guess what?
I actually believe the employee.
SPEAKER_00 (20:46):
Yeah, seriously.
SPEAKER_01 (20:49):
Right.
So uh these are real lifeexamples.
Yes.
Well, let me ask you, let me askyou this.
How would you coach somebody?
Or what tips would you givesomebody who's really not
wanting to have thatconversation?
Yeah, like what steps would yougive them to say, okay, this is
(21:10):
how you should effectively doit?
SPEAKER_00 (21:12):
Right.
Okay.
So the self-awareness piece islike critical, but also takes a
little bit of time and differentkind of effort.
I have this one hack that Ithink can be applied no matter
how skillful you are or not,this is something that you can
do to make it easier and better.
And so what we tell people to dois give future focused feedback.
(21:37):
Because if you're talking tosomebody who actually cares
about their performance at all,and you tell them what they did
wrong two weeks ago, two monthsago, two days ago, that's gonna
hurt because they're actuallythey care, you know, and they're
trying.
And what are they gonna do aboutit?
It's like telling somebody thefinal score of a game and
(21:59):
expecting that to change theoutcome.
Like it's it's done.
And so you can often give thesame information and a future
with a future focus, and thatcomes with hope.
And that also comes with yourability to support it.
So instead of saying, you know,that presentation you did two
weeks ago, the technology wasoff, like you already know that.
(22:21):
You could say, in the future, Ithink it can be really helpful
if we did the meeting from thisroom because there's more tech
to do that from, and I'm happyto take you and show you like
how to work all that stuffbefore the meeting if you're
interested.
Same outcome, same thing.
You're communicating the sameinformation, but one is
(22:41):
demoralizing because it's doneand you can't change it, and the
other comes with hope becauseit's not done, and you can
change it.
And guess what?
The person who even gave you thefeedback can help you be, can
help you to do better.
And so this future-focusedfeedback piece is incredibly
(23:03):
powerful.
Um, and it's something that canbe applied right away, truly.
SPEAKER_01 (23:09):
I love that having that future-focused mindset.
So let me ask this because Iknow like there's some people
listening.
So, how do you start theconversation?
Because oftentimes uh people maystart the conversation saying,
Well, I noticed that you um didX, Y, and Z.
SPEAKER_00 (23:30):
Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_01 (23:31):
And then they may go into the future focus.
So, how do we really have thisconversation?
SPEAKER_00 (23:36):
Yeah.
Or even worse, this is like myleast favorite of how do you
think you did when when you knowsomebody has feedback for you
that's coming and you're justlike, don't make me do this.
Just tell me what you think.
SPEAKER_01 (23:52):
Yeah, it's annoying.
SPEAKER_00 (23:53):
It's annoying.
So I think part of the problemis that feedback, we tend to say
constructive feedback.
I hate that term.
I don't, I think it's we knowit's negative feedback.
It's part of that gaslightingthing, right?
Constructive feedback.
Okay, you're gonna tell mesomething I did wrong.
Let's just do this, you know?
But I think that's what createsthe stress and the ick of
(24:16):
feedback, is because, you know,that is the reputation, that is
the pattern, this is how we'vedone it for so long.
So part of reducing thatresponse is just having people
experience another way whereevery time you talk to them, it
doesn't feel punitive, itdoesn't feel like you're being
(24:38):
critical.
It feels like you're actuallyhelping them be better, which
most people want to do.
So I think that um to whatyou're saying, I think it will
take a few times to actually getthat response uh a little bit
tempered um by the more positiveinteraction.
(25:01):
But the you just start and say,Hey, I would love to um share
some feedback with you.
Is that okay?
And I think asking permission isgreat.
The word feedback freaks peopleout, they're not gonna be happy
about it, but they're probablygonna say yes anyway.
And then when they say yes, whenyou invite people to give you
(25:23):
permission to do it, thenthere's a little something that
goes on in their head of like,okay, I'm participating in this.
This is not something that'sjust happening to me.
I'm involved in this process.
So I think that's an importantpiece.
And then just saying, you know,I point out what they did well.
I think you did a great job withthis, this, and this.
(25:45):
I feel like in the future, itcould be even better if you did
XYZ.
And here's how I could help youdo that.
So all of a sudden you'returning this conversation into
one where that's consensual.
You've asked for permission.
And guess what?
If somebody's having a terribleday, they can say no.
(26:06):
Can we do that?
And then you can say, can wemeet tomorrow?
Then let's just put something ona schedule for tomorrow.
Like having people be able to uhset their own boundaries and
show up in the way that theyknow they only they know they
can do, that's incrediblyimportant.
And then this other piece whereyou're not focusing on what went
(26:28):
wrong, you're really focusing onwhat went right and saying how
it could be even better.
Like that is a much easierconversation to have than what
we're doing now.
SPEAKER_01 (26:42):
Wow.
I love the fact that you saidyou asked a question.
Hey, can I provide somefeedback?
Because again, like you say it,like like you stated, it opens
them up to say, oh, I reallyhave an option.
Yes.
(27:03):
Right?
And then who's not curious aboutwhat someone's thinking, right?
Yeah.
Like for me, if you say, Hey,uh, do you want to give me some
uh hey, can I give you somefeedback?
I say, oh, sure, what you whatyou got?
What you got?
Yeah, you know, it's it's likeyou're telling me a lot of
people.
SPEAKER_00 (27:19):
You might go, oh no, please don't give me feedback.
But you're gonna say yes,usually.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (27:25):
Yeah.
Or if not, if you say no, you'regonna come back tomorrow and
think about it.
Like, yeah, okay, um, you yousaid you had some.
SPEAKER_00 (27:34):
Exactly.
You won't be able to let it go.
SPEAKER_01 (27:38):
I love that.
I'm actually gonna put that inmy next coaching session uh when
I do some some draining.
All right.
SPEAKER_02 (27:45):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (27:45):
I'm gonna say, hey, ask the question first, right?
And there's psych uh there's athere's psychology behind it.
Yeah.
Right, right.
So thank you.
You're helping me and everybodyelse out here.
So I got one last question foryou.
Yes.
If you could give one truthabout communication that people
do not want to hear, what wouldit be and why?
SPEAKER_00 (28:09):
I think the thing that they do not want to hear,
but it also provides so muchrelief, is that there is no
mountain peak here.
You you're never going to beperfect at it.
There's no plateau.
You don't just grow and then allof a sudden, because the thing
is you're communicating withother people.
(28:30):
So even if you get really goodat it and you're communicating
with somebody who lacksself-awareness, conversations
can really go sideways.
And so the bad news is I'm notgonna say it never gets better,
but it never gets perfect.
Like there, you're always goingto have a risk.
Right.
(28:50):
And you can skill yourself up tobe more self-aware, to be more
able to navigate thoseconversations and repair when
things get wrong.
But it's not like you can learnand develop to a point where you
just don't have to deal withmessy conversations anymore.
They will be happening for therest of your life.
SPEAKER_01 (29:11):
And it's okay to have those difficult
conversations.
SPEAKER_00 (29:14):
Okay.
Everybody does.
Nobody's doing better than you,I promise.
SPEAKER_01 (29:18):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (29:18):
You know?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (29:20):
Yeah.
Well, I love it.
I love it so much because theseare practical things that we
really don't think about as wehave conversations, as we uh
talk to people and communicate,whether that's communicating
through email versuscommunicating in person, right?
And and one thing I see a lot isthat people tend to hide behind
(29:44):
the communication tools that wehave.
SPEAKER_02 (29:46):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (29:47):
Like, you know, using Teams instead of having an
in person conversation, texting,right?
I one time I had a uh asupervisor, a manager who texts
the employee that.
That we're terminated.
SPEAKER_02 (30:01):
No.
SPEAKER_01 (30:02):
And it's like, how impersonal are you?
SPEAKER_02 (30:05):
Oh my gosh.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (30:06):
And so people tend to naturally hide behind the
tools that are supposed to helpus communicate.
What's your thoughts about that?
SPEAKER_00 (30:16):
I totally agree.
And I don't think it's, youknow, bad intent.
I think it's lack of ability.
So as adults, when we see otheradults who are not doing what
they're supposed to do,automatically we just think
motivation.
They're not motivated to do theright thing.
They're not motivated to do it.
When in reality, the majority ofthe time it's an ability issue.
(30:39):
But kids, we expect abilityissues.
They'll raise their hand and saythey don't know.
Adults won't do that.
So I think we have to start withgiving people the skills to
actually do the job well.
Because when people don't havethe ability, they overly rely on
these structures that we'veprovided from World War One,
(31:02):
basically, that are not working.
And so yeah, then we getdysfunction, we don't get the
outcomes that we're looking for.
It's not great for successionplanning or even anything else
because the data that we thatwe're using is not um it's not
incredibly valid.
So I think that is uh I totallyagree with you that ability is
(31:27):
really the reason why mostmanagers lean on the tool lean
on the tools that organizationshave instead of using their
their own skill.
SPEAKER_01 (31:37):
So I've got a question for you.
SPEAKER_00 (31:39):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (31:40):
What is your workplace pet peeve?
What's a pet peeve of yours thatjust really irked your nerves?
I love asking this question.
SPEAKER_00 (31:48):
That's a good one.
I it so I I I call itinstitutional gaslighting.
And it's when we're like alldoing something that we know
isn't above board, isn't true.
So performance management is oneof those things that I talk
(32:09):
about as often institutionalgaslighting because it's like
framed as this thing that we dofor employees to help them
improve performance, buteverybody knows it's the it's
the check the box thing, it'sthe it's the legal document, and
it's not actually helping meimprove my performance.
(32:29):
And so that's what I strugglewith is the mixed messages of
you tell me one thing, but I weall know that's not what the
thing is, and so maybe that's alack of transparency, to be
honest.
SPEAKER_01 (32:43):
Well, hey, this is the transparent nature podcast,
right?
And it doesn't get any more realthan this, right?
SPEAKER_02 (32:49):
Yeah, yes.
SPEAKER_01 (32:50):
But that's a good point that you touched on
because uh when we look atperformance, uh really how do we
build someone's performance?
Yeah, it's not a one-yearconversation.
SPEAKER_02 (33:03):
Uh-uh.
SPEAKER_01 (33:04):
It's also not a one-year rating, right?
It's something that uh you Ilike to say you having you're
you you gotta have intentionalconversations.
And as you see things come up,you need to address them, right?
And how do you address it?
Is it uh a corrective approachor is it more of a one-on-one,
(33:26):
hey, let me help and coach you,right?
And so these are conversationsthat we need to have in our
workplaces that again, it's morethan just a one-year or two-year
conversation.
I I I I used to tell my leaders,hey, give me feedback as you see
it.
As you as if you see a gap, ifyou see something missing, if
(33:48):
you see me going in the wrongdirection, I need you to let me
know immediately.
SPEAKER_02 (33:53):
Please.
SPEAKER_01 (33:59):
And I'm like, I never heard you say anything
about that.
So why would you put that on myright hand?
SPEAKER_00 (34:05):
Yeah.
No, they're they're crazy.
Do you know where performancereviews came from?
Like the history of where theycame from.
SPEAKER_01 (34:13):
Tell us about it.
SPEAKER_00 (34:14):
Okay.
It it's it makes sense when whenyou know this, is that they
actually came from processesthat were used in the World War
I military system to determinewho should rise in the ranks.
So that's why we have rating andranking as part of our
performance management, becauseit was literally taken from this
(34:35):
military process and popped intoorganizations in the 1970s and
hasn't changed much since.
And in the 70s, it wasfunctional because the pace of
change was nothing like it istoday.
In the 70s, an annual review,like, depending on what your job
is, could be functional nowtoday to still be using this
(34:59):
system that's hierarchical, thatyou know, the only person who
can control my performance isme.
So, why are managers responsiblefor owning that process and not
me who's actually doing the job?
SPEAKER_01 (35:17):
That's good.
SPEAKER_00 (35:18):
And it's really antiquated.
And when we talk aboutcommunication at work, I think
these old systems are part ofthe reason why we see so much
dysfunction and communication atwork because the structures that
we have in place aren't working.
SPEAKER_01 (35:34):
Right, right.
And and you often hear that uhperformance reviews is the
beginning of successionplanning.
SPEAKER_02 (35:41):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (35:42):
And is that really the the right direction?
Is that really the right step?
Oh, man.
We have to really think aboutthose things, right?
All right.
So, anywho, that this is a greatconversation.
I probably gotta bring you backto have this conversation
because we can talk aboutperformance reviews and and
talking about the history andall of that, but I want to take
(36:04):
a moment to recognize October.
We know October is breast cancerawareness month, and in honor of
that, as you can see, I'vechanged my studio lights today
to pink as a reminder to supportthe fighters, celebrate the
survivors, and to honor thosethat we've lost.
So if you'd like to help make adifference, please consider
(36:25):
donating to the Susan G.
Coleman Foundation.
There's a link in thedescription below where you can
click that link and donate tothe foundation.
Every dollar helps in theresearch for a cure.
All right now.
I also want to also recognize uhsome people.
Um, on my last episode, I sharedhey, if you um comment your name
(36:51):
or if you comment on uh theepisode, I'll give you a shout
out, right?
So I want to do that real quick.
Uh, we have Ace Ads, we haveHalo Vision Media, we have
Julius Sue Clean, we have DannyRogers from New York, and we
have Greta Sutton.
Thank you so much for listeningto the episode uh and supporting
(37:14):
the podcast.
Uh, it's really, really greatlyappreciated.
Before we get out of here, howcan people reach out to you?
Uh, how can organizations uhsay, hey, I want to utilize you
in your services?
SPEAKER_00 (37:28):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (37:28):
How can people find you?
SPEAKER_00 (37:30):
Uh, I you can find me on LinkedIn.
That's probably one of theeasiest ways.
I'm really active on there,Colette Revere.
And my company's name isOpen360.
And we have actually a better360 assessment than uh the
traditional 360.
Our goal is to really replacesome of these old performance
(37:52):
processes with psychologicallyhealthy and functional ways of
communicating and sharingfeedback in the workplace.
So you can find informationabout all the stuff that we
offer at uh myopen360.com.
SPEAKER_01 (38:09):
And guess what?
We'll have the link in thedescription below.
So if you want to connect withCollette, you'll be able to do
so uh again within thedescription.
At the end of the day,communication isn't just about
what comes out of your mouth,it's about what people receive
and perceive.
If you want to lead, grow, andbuild trust, you have to
(38:32):
communicate like someone whoactually cares about being
understood and not just heard.
So before you say, HR is in mybusiness again, ask yourself,
did you communicate well?
Or does my communications suck?
Or did you just never say whatneeded to be said?
(38:52):
So I'm Prince Tate.
And until next time, keepnavigating your career with
confidence and clarity.
See you then.
Let's be honest, some people's communication at
(00:02):
work stops.
You send three paragraph emailswhen one sentence would suffice,
you avoid that toughconversation hoping it would
just disappear, or you'll say,I'm fine, when you're clearly
not, and then HR gets involved,all because two grown adults
could not communicate.
(00:23):
Today, we're talking about whycommunication in the workplace
is so dysfunctional.
Why is it so hard for people totalk to each other like adults?
And most importantly, what canwe do about it?
Joining me today is someone whoknows this topic inside and out.
Colette Revere, the founder ofOpen360, a psychology-backed
(00:47):
change management consultancythat helps organizations improve
performance by aligning people,systems, and communication.
At Open360, they blendindividual development with
organizational strategy so teamsdon't just move forward, they
actually go stronger together.
(01:08):
So buckle up because today we'renot sugarcoating anything.
We're breaking down the truth.
We're being honest, we're beingtransparent about why your
communication sucks and also howto finally fix it.
So tune in and we'll see you onthe episode.
(01:36):
Hey, and welcome back to theTransparent Nature Podcast,
where we bring realconversations to help you
navigate your career andworkplace challenges.
It's your host, Prince Tate, andI want to thank you for
listening as well as supportingthe Transparent Nature Podcast.
So I'm really excited for theguest we have today.
(01:59):
Her name is Colette Revere, andshe's here with us, and we're
about to dive into whycommunication at work, why does
it suck?
Why is it such a mess?
So, Colette, welcome to theshow.
How are you?
SPEAKER_00 (02:14):
Thank you so much.
I'm doing great, and I'm reallyglad to be here.
SPEAKER_01 (02:19):
Man, thank you so much.
You know, this is a conversationthat we need to have
communication, because whetheryou're at work or even outside
of work, there always seems tobe a gap regarding
communication, right?
And so this is why we need tohave this conversation today.
Um, and especially from an HRperspective with my background,
(02:41):
yeah.
Uh this is where the gap is.
We always see that, you knowwhat, this issue or this
employee relation matter couldhave been avoided if we would
have effectively had aconversation.
Let's get to the point of it,right?
Why do people struggle so muchto have effective conversations
(03:04):
at work?
Why does it seem that peopledon't want to communicate,
especially when it when there'sconflict in the workplace?
SPEAKER_00 (03:14):
Yes.
It's like a giant game ofchicken, and nobody wants to
admit that they don't know howto do it, but no one knows how
to do it well.
To be honest, our families wereour first classrooms when it
comes to communication.
And I haven't met a singleperson who gives that a 10 out
(03:35):
of 10 experience, you know?
And so growing up, we uh youlearn things from our families
and internalize things that wedon't even realize.
And so a lot of people growingup are just trying to be better
than their mom or just liketheir dad or whatever.
Uh the comparison is in thefamily.
(03:57):
And then you go into a workplaceand you're interacting with all
these different people who havetotally different internalized
ideas and norms.
And of course, we don't know howto communicate with them.
We haven't even done theself-discovery of like
understanding how our lens iseven shaped to know how to then
(04:20):
um accept what somebody else isbringing in versus changing our
own perspective around things.
So I think um it sounds big andhard to do, and it's actually
just takes practice and a littlebit of knowledge and
self-awareness to get started.
But I think leaders inparticular struggle with this
(04:41):
because they haven't beentrained in organizations often
to do this communication, andyet they're responsible for
really doing some heavy dutycommunication with their teams
and employees.
SPEAKER_02 (04:57):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (04:57):
And they don't know how.
And of course, they're not gonnaraise their hand and be like,
hey, like HR, I think I needsome communication training.
Nobody's gonna do that becauseyou know what I call that?
SPEAKER_01 (05:07):
I call that soft skills.
SPEAKER_00 (05:09):
Yes, right.
SPEAKER_01 (05:10):
That's a part of the soft skills that people often
look overlook, right?
That's right.
I did a couple couple episodesago, I did an episode on
skilling you softly, right?
And it really talks about, youknow, what are some of those
soft skills that we need.
Again, we we often see it inorganizations where they promote
(05:33):
the people who are good attechnical skills, right?
Uh, if if you know how to run amachine and you learn the
machine, now they feel like,okay, now you can lead people
who are working on the machine,right?
Right.
And we forget, hey, when we talkabout leadership, right?
Uh great leaders are those whocan influence uh people who work
(05:58):
under them or with them to do orto reach a goal.
Okay.
And so if you do not have softskills, and one of those things
we call is emotionalintelligence as well, yeah.
How can you lead effectively?
SPEAKER_02 (06:13):
Oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_01 (06:14):
How can you communicate effectively when you
don't even understand, like yousaid, how you communicate?
What is your communicationstyle?
How do you and and this is sointeresting because you said
that it starts at home, right?
It starts at home.
And so then you have to look at,okay, how did you grow up?
(06:36):
Did you have a mother?
Did you have a father?
SPEAKER_02 (06:38):
That's right.
SPEAKER_01 (06:39):
Did they communicate effectively?
Did they even show love to oneanother, right?
And so we go into all of this,and I know I'm still in your
shine, but we go into all ofthis, right?
SPEAKER_02 (06:50):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (06:51):
And then we show up at work and we we don't know
where we stand.
SPEAKER_00 (06:57):
No, right?
SPEAKER_01 (06:58):
So you said it starts with self-what
reflection, self-awareness,self-awareness, knowing where
you are.
Talk a little bit more aboutthat.
SPEAKER_00 (07:06):
Yeah, it's uh I recently over the last couple of
years have really refined atraining around that that I
think is really good.
It's incredible to see.
I mean, you can just see theimpact of just a single session
that people are going throughwhere we have them evaluate
(07:28):
their history.
What were the messages youlearned about communication
growing up?
And to your point, what did youlearn about conflict and how you
deal with conflict?
What did you learn about howappropriate it is to express a
need?
Because you to when you grow upin a home where you're not able
to express what you need, andyou are a leader now in an
(07:50):
organization, often you don'tallow other people to do the
things you don't allow yourselfto do.
So as a leader who's notcomfortable expressing needs,
they're not gonna be great withtheir people expressing needs as
well.
So it's just really evaluatingthat piece and also looking for
(08:11):
patterns.
So across relationships, whatseems to come up that maybe
confuses you, like you don't getwhy people have this response
about you, or but it but itcomes up over and over again,
like those are the places thatwe can see, oh, I may need to do
some rethinking about this.
(08:31):
Um, but in terms of how to doit, what's beautiful about it is
it's really a perspective shift,and it doesn't take long to get
it.
Once you have this aha momentwhere you're looking at your
history and you're looking atwhat you're doing now, and
things are making sense aboutwhy you respond the way that you
do, then the behavior change isreally natural.
(08:55):
It's not as much of a struggleas people think it will be.
SPEAKER_01 (08:59):
Wow.
That that is so deep.
I think about my how I grew up.
I had a father, I had a mother,and this is a really vulnerable
moment, right?
Um, my mother and father, theydivorced when I was in
elementary.
And my father, you talked aboutmilitary.
(09:21):
My father, he did 25 years inthe military.
SPEAKER_00 (09:24):
Oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_01 (09:25):
And so on top of that, he was a pastor.
And so you think about respect,right?
Yeah, how do you respect, likewhen you're in the military, you
cannot talk back, right?
And so I grew up, like, I can'ttalk back to people, right?
And I mean, there's a sense ofrespect, but then there's also a
(09:46):
sense of like when do youactually speak up?
Right?
And so sometimes, and again,this is a very vulnerable
moment.
Sometimes I even have challengeswith that, right?
Like I may be thinking, no, thesky is blue, but you're telling
me because you're a VP ofwhatever, the sky is gray.
(10:08):
And I'm like, no, the sky isblue.
SPEAKER_00 (10:10):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (10:11):
Right?
And and and so then I start tothink, like, okay, I start
getting nervous because I know Ineed to respect the hierarchy.
SPEAKER_00 (10:22):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (10:23):
But then on my the other side of me, it's like uh
angel over here and the devilover here, right?
And then I'm like, no, you needto speak up.
SPEAKER_02 (10:31):
Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_01 (10:31):
Yeah, I'm like, ah, but if I speak, then I start
running through, okay, what whatwhat are the effects if I do
this, if I don't do this?
And then I think about, okay,you know what, is it even worth
it?
SPEAKER_00 (10:44):
No.
Well, because internally youhave to go through so much to
even get to the place of doingit that you do, you talk
yourself out of it.
I so appreciate yourvulnerability with that.
And it's I love that you have atransparent HR podcast now.
So it's such a from feelinglike, oh, I can't speak up, oh,
(11:07):
it's a harder thing for me todo.
And now you, that is yourmission in some ways, is to be
transparent and to speak up andto help other people do that as
well.
I'm with you.
I grew up in a home with abuse.
This is kind of how my journeystarted to becoming a therapist
and then doing family systemswork and then moving it into the
(11:29):
workplace of, you know, the youeven the hard lessons, even the
lessons that are not the onesthat you really want to carry on
through adulthood, are goodinformation about how other
people might be responding, howthey might be perceiving things,
(11:50):
because um you just don't knowthe environment that people have
been shaped in.
And I think for when you'retalking about the sky is blue
versus the sky is gray, that'sso tricky.
And one of the things we talkabout in our training at Open360
is um the big T truth and thelittle T truth.
(12:15):
So we're assuming well, thelittle T truth is your personal
truth, and everybody has one.
And there are some people whowill just say the sky is gray
just because I'm in charge and Iget to say what it is, but many
times there are people who justtotally see things different
than us, and we're on twodifferent sides of a thing, and
(12:38):
we're just like legitimatelyeach seeing things very, very
differently.
I think, especially in our worldtoday, that is incredibly
relatable.
And then there's this biggertruth that holds space for
everybody's truth.
Like, in order for you to beright, I don't have to be wrong.
(12:59):
We can both 100% believe what webelieve, and your belief doesn't
negate mine at all.
And and that is the space thatwhen people learn to navigate,
okay, I respect that this isyour truth, even though I
totally don't that's totally notmy truth, and okay, this is my
(13:19):
truth, and I respect that.
When you can start communicatingfrom that place, that's where
real, real progress begins.
SPEAKER_01 (13:30):
Wow.
Man, that this is a lot of goodinformation.
And you know, let's kind of pullfrom your background.
So from a psychology standpoint,and we probably already talked
about it, but from a psychologystandpoint, when we see
communication breakdowns, whatdoes that really tell us?
SPEAKER_00 (13:49):
Well, that's a good question.
It's it tells us we're human.
I mean, there is no way.
This is this is what I tellpeople, you only ever have
control of 50% of theconversation.
Like I'm good at this, and Istill have really bad
conversations.
It doesn't, there is nopinnacle.
(14:10):
There's no there's no moment inyour life will you where you
will be above this problem ofmiscommunication ever.
It will always be a risk inevery conversation that you go
into, and that's what's so scaryfor people, I think.
And that's why when we uh teachpeople, we focus on this is
(14:33):
gonna happen.
Perfection is not an option.
So let's look at what good lookslike.
And what good looks like isbeing able to go back and repair
when things go wrong, becausethey will.
SPEAKER_01 (14:47):
Wow.
So, you know, I I say thatearlier.
A lot of times in the workplace,as HR professionals, we often
see that um there's a common gapin terms of employee relations
and what the actual issue is.
SPEAKER_02 (15:02):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (15:03):
Right?
Uh sometimes team members maycome and say, hey, I'm having an
issue with another team member,and my manager won't do anything
about it.
And one of the things one of thequestions I ask is, well, um,
okay, let's talk about this.
Have you talked with that personto let them know that you do not
like them calling you big back?
(15:26):
I'm just gonna put that inthere.
Yeah.
Right?
SPEAKER_00 (15:30):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (15:31):
And I'm using that example because it's a real
example.
SPEAKER_00 (15:34):
Oh my gosh.
I'm never amazed.
SPEAKER_01 (15:39):
And so again, like, have you talked to that person,
say, hey, I mean, what ifthey're just playing with you
and and thought that that's justhow you communicate?
SPEAKER_00 (15:49):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (15:50):
And like, oh, then they get really small and they
go, um, no, I haven't talked tothem.
And so let's do this first.
Let's have a conversation withthem, and and then I'll ask
them, do you want to practicethe conversation?
SPEAKER_00 (16:06):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (16:07):
Because I can't be the gap for you.
No, you have to speak up, right?
So again, as we talk about um,you know, miscommunication and
it's resulting into employeerelation concerns, how can we as
employees and leaders avoidhaving to escalate an issue that
(16:30):
we can really address ourselves?
SPEAKER_00 (16:32):
Yeah.
I think it starts with scalingup because I think it really
starts with this acknowledgementthat it doesn't matter whether
you're a leader or employee,people are kind of equally bad
at this, and it's okay.
This is just like, why wouldn'twe be?
We haven't learned to do thingsdifferently.
So I think it starts with justthe acknowledgement and the
(16:55):
ability to say, it's okay if wedon't know how to do this well.
That's the place we're gonnastart to learn to do this well.
And unfortunately, what I see,and I'm curious what you see, is
that um people are too afraid tosay they don't know, so they
never learn and grow becausethey're not willing to admit
(17:18):
that they don't know.
And and and their companies arejust kind of their companies are
aware that it's a skill gap, butit's one of those things because
it's a soft skill.
They feel like, well, we don'tneed to invest in that right
now.
We're gonna kick that can downthe road a little bit.
And so I think for leaders andemployees who want to learn to
(17:39):
do better, I think it's aboutasking your leader, asking your
organization, can I get helpwith this?
Can you bring in some supportand teach us really how to do
this?
SPEAKER_01 (17:50):
Wow.
But let me ask you this.
Why do you why do you thinkpeople avoid tough
conversations?
SPEAKER_00 (17:59):
Oh, that's a good question.
SPEAKER_01 (18:01):
Because oftentimes we we see that you know, people
are okay with like sharing goodnews.
SPEAKER_02 (18:07):
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (18:08):
Yeah.
They can't wait to share goodnews.
But when it when it comes tohaving crucial or tough
conversations, they're reallyavoidant, right?
So what is, I mean, what doesthat really do with trust and
even team dynamics?
SPEAKER_00 (18:23):
I have my perspective on this.
And I don't know, this is justbased on my experience, but I
think that people often avoidconflict in those conversations
because they're afraid somethingis going to be revealed about
them that they don't want to berevealed.
So, what I mean by that is Ithink we all go through this
(18:48):
world.
I'm I am gonna say all, eventhough that's a stretch to say
like everybody in the world, butuh feeling not good enough.
SPEAKER_01 (18:57):
Wow.
SPEAKER_00 (18:58):
And so we especially in our professional life go
through our days like hopingpeople don't see the places that
we feel insecure, hoping peopledon't notice the ways that we're
not showing up, and we're justkind of creating the narrative
about who we are or we're tryingto.
(19:20):
And when you go into a conflictsituation where you're bringing
up somebody else's thing thatthey're afraid to see or be
called out on because it's hardfor everyone, then you risk
somebody flipping it around andcoming back at you and going,
Well, you did this and you dothat.
(19:42):
And it's like opening this wholecan of worms that feels
completely risky, and you justlike to your point earlier, you
have to manufacture so muchenergy to do it that you just
talk yourself out of it and tellyourself that it's easier and
that the problem will justresolve itself if you don't
address it.
SPEAKER_01 (20:01):
I love that you brought that up because that's
another real life example.
You know, I had a leader, she umshe was trying to really coach
and talk to an employee aboutsomething that they were doing.
And in turn, the employee thensaid, Well, you do it too.
(20:22):
I know, yeah, and when I heardthat, I was like, Oh my god,
this is about to go down.
And so, look, even HRprofessional, you know, I I have
fun in my brain.
That's right.
I may not share everything, itmay not come out, but in my
brain, I'm like, wow.
I'm like, she just told you.
(20:43):
And then and then guess what?
I actually believe the employee.
SPEAKER_00 (20:46):
Yeah, seriously.
SPEAKER_01 (20:49):
Right.
So uh these are real lifeexamples.
Yes.
Well, let me ask you, let me askyou this.
How would you coach somebody?
Or what tips would you givesomebody who's really not
wanting to have thatconversation?
Yeah, like what steps would yougive them to say, okay, this is
(21:10):
how you should effectively doit?
SPEAKER_00 (21:12):
Right.
Okay.
So the self-awareness piece islike critical, but also takes a
little bit of time and differentkind of effort.
I have this one hack that Ithink can be applied no matter
how skillful you are or not,this is something that you can
do to make it easier and better.
And so what we tell people to dois give future focused feedback.
(21:37):
Because if you're talking tosomebody who actually cares
about their performance at all,and you tell them what they did
wrong two weeks ago, two monthsago, two days ago, that's gonna
hurt because they're actuallythey care, you know, and they're
trying.
And what are they gonna do aboutit?
It's like telling somebody thefinal score of a game and
(21:59):
expecting that to change theoutcome.
Like it's it's done.
And so you can often give thesame information and a future
with a future focus, and thatcomes with hope.
And that also comes with yourability to support it.
So instead of saying, you know,that presentation you did two
weeks ago, the technology wasoff, like you already know that.
(22:21):
You could say, in the future, Ithink it can be really helpful
if we did the meeting from thisroom because there's more tech
to do that from, and I'm happyto take you and show you like
how to work all that stuffbefore the meeting if you're
interested.
Same outcome, same thing.
You're communicating the sameinformation, but one is
(22:41):
demoralizing because it's doneand you can't change it, and the
other comes with hope becauseit's not done, and you can
change it.
And guess what?
The person who even gave you thefeedback can help you be, can
help you to do better.
And so this future-focusedfeedback piece is incredibly
(23:03):
powerful.
Um, and it's something that canbe applied right away, truly.
SPEAKER_01 (23:09):
I love that having that future-focused mindset.
So let me ask this because Iknow like there's some people
listening.
So, how do you start theconversation?
Because oftentimes uh people maystart the conversation saying,
Well, I noticed that you um didX, Y, and Z.
SPEAKER_00 (23:30):
Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_01 (23:31):
And then they may go into the future focus.
So, how do we really have thisconversation?
SPEAKER_00 (23:36):
Yeah.
Or even worse, this is like myleast favorite of how do you
think you did when when you knowsomebody has feedback for you
that's coming and you're justlike, don't make me do this.
Just tell me what you think.
SPEAKER_01 (23:52):
Yeah, it's annoying.
SPEAKER_00 (23:53):
It's annoying.
So I think part of the problemis that feedback, we tend to say
constructive feedback.
I hate that term.
I don't, I think it's we knowit's negative feedback.
It's part of that gaslightingthing, right?
Constructive feedback.
Okay, you're gonna tell mesomething I did wrong.
Let's just do this, you know?
But I think that's what createsthe stress and the ick of
(24:16):
feedback, is because, you know,that is the reputation, that is
the pattern, this is how we'vedone it for so long.
So part of reducing thatresponse is just having people
experience another way whereevery time you talk to them, it
doesn't feel punitive, itdoesn't feel like you're being
(24:38):
critical.
It feels like you're actuallyhelping them be better, which
most people want to do.
So I think that um to whatyou're saying, I think it will
take a few times to actually getthat response uh a little bit
tempered um by the more positiveinteraction.
(25:01):
But the you just start and say,Hey, I would love to um share
some feedback with you.
Is that okay?
And I think asking permission isgreat.
The word feedback freaks peopleout, they're not gonna be happy
about it, but they're probablygonna say yes anyway.
And then when they say yes, whenyou invite people to give you
(25:23):
permission to do it, thenthere's a little something that
goes on in their head of like,okay, I'm participating in this.
This is not something that'sjust happening to me.
I'm involved in this process.
So I think that's an importantpiece.
And then just saying, you know,I point out what they did well.
I think you did a great job withthis, this, and this.
(25:45):
I feel like in the future, itcould be even better if you did
XYZ.
And here's how I could help youdo that.
So all of a sudden you'returning this conversation into
one where that's consensual.
You've asked for permission.
And guess what?
If somebody's having a terribleday, they can say no.
(26:06):
Can we do that?
And then you can say, can wemeet tomorrow?
Then let's just put something ona schedule for tomorrow.
Like having people be able to uhset their own boundaries and
show up in the way that theyknow they only they know they
can do, that's incrediblyimportant.
And then this other piece whereyou're not focusing on what went
(26:28):
wrong, you're really focusing onwhat went right and saying how
it could be even better.
Like that is a much easierconversation to have than what
we're doing now.
SPEAKER_01 (26:42):
Wow.
I love the fact that you saidyou asked a question.
Hey, can I provide somefeedback?
Because again, like you say it,like like you stated, it opens
them up to say, oh, I reallyhave an option.
Yes.
(27:03):
Right?
And then who's not curious aboutwhat someone's thinking, right?
Yeah.
Like for me, if you say, Hey,uh, do you want to give me some
uh hey, can I give you somefeedback?
I say, oh, sure, what you whatyou got?
What you got?
Yeah, you know, it's it's likeyou're telling me a lot of
people.
SPEAKER_00 (27:19):
You might go, oh no, please don't give me feedback.
But you're gonna say yes,usually.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (27:25):
Yeah.
Or if not, if you say no, you'regonna come back tomorrow and
think about it.
Like, yeah, okay, um, you yousaid you had some.
SPEAKER_00 (27:34):
Exactly.
You won't be able to let it go.
SPEAKER_01 (27:38):
I love that.
I'm actually gonna put that inmy next coaching session uh when
I do some some draining.
All right.
SPEAKER_02 (27:45):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (27:45):
I'm gonna say, hey, ask the question first, right?
And there's psych uh there's athere's psychology behind it.
Yeah.
Right, right.
So thank you.
You're helping me and everybodyelse out here.
So I got one last question foryou.
Yes.
If you could give one truthabout communication that people
do not want to hear, what wouldit be and why?
SPEAKER_00 (28:09):
I think the thing that they do not want to hear,
but it also provides so muchrelief, is that there is no
mountain peak here.
You you're never going to beperfect at it.
There's no plateau.
You don't just grow and then allof a sudden, because the thing
is you're communicating withother people.
(28:30):
So even if you get really goodat it and you're communicating
with somebody who lacksself-awareness, conversations
can really go sideways.
And so the bad news is I'm notgonna say it never gets better,
but it never gets perfect.
Like there, you're always goingto have a risk.
Right.
(28:50):
And you can skill yourself up tobe more self-aware, to be more
able to navigate thoseconversations and repair when
things get wrong.
But it's not like you can learnand develop to a point where you
just don't have to deal withmessy conversations anymore.
They will be happening for therest of your life.
SPEAKER_01 (29:11):
And it's okay to have those difficult
conversations.
SPEAKER_00 (29:14):
Okay.
Everybody does.
Nobody's doing better than you,I promise.
SPEAKER_01 (29:18):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (29:18):
You know?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (29:20):
Yeah.
Well, I love it.
I love it so much because theseare practical things that we
really don't think about as wehave conversations, as we uh
talk to people and communicate,whether that's communicating
through email versuscommunicating in person, right?
And and one thing I see a lot isthat people tend to hide behind
(29:44):
the communication tools that wehave.
SPEAKER_02 (29:46):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (29:47):
Like, you know, using Teams instead of having an
in person conversation, texting,right?
I one time I had a uh asupervisor, a manager who texts
the employee that.
That we're terminated.
SPEAKER_02 (30:01):
No.
SPEAKER_01 (30:02):
And it's like, how impersonal are you?
SPEAKER_02 (30:05):
Oh my gosh.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (30:06):
And so people tend to naturally hide behind the
tools that are supposed to helpus communicate.
What's your thoughts about that?
SPEAKER_00 (30:16):
I totally agree.
And I don't think it's, youknow, bad intent.
I think it's lack of ability.
So as adults, when we see otheradults who are not doing what
they're supposed to do,automatically we just think
motivation.
They're not motivated to do theright thing.
They're not motivated to do it.
When in reality, the majority ofthe time it's an ability issue.
(30:39):
But kids, we expect abilityissues.
They'll raise their hand and saythey don't know.
Adults won't do that.
So I think we have to start withgiving people the skills to
actually do the job well.
Because when people don't havethe ability, they overly rely on
these structures that we'veprovided from World War One,
(31:02):
basically, that are not working.
And so yeah, then we getdysfunction, we don't get the
outcomes that we're looking for.
It's not great for successionplanning or even anything else
because the data that we thatwe're using is not um it's not
incredibly valid.
So I think that is uh I totallyagree with you that ability is
(31:27):
really the reason why mostmanagers lean on the tool lean
on the tools that organizationshave instead of using their
their own skill.
SPEAKER_01 (31:37):
So I've got a question for you.
SPEAKER_00 (31:39):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (31:40):
What is your workplace pet peeve?
What's a pet peeve of yours thatjust really irked your nerves?
I love asking this question.
SPEAKER_00 (31:48):
That's a good one.
I it so I I I call itinstitutional gaslighting.
And it's when we're like alldoing something that we know
isn't above board, isn't true.
So performance management is oneof those things that I talk
(32:09):
about as often institutionalgaslighting because it's like
framed as this thing that we dofor employees to help them
improve performance, buteverybody knows it's the it's
the check the box thing, it'sthe it's the legal document, and
it's not actually helping meimprove my performance.
(32:29):
And so that's what I strugglewith is the mixed messages of
you tell me one thing, but I weall know that's not what the
thing is, and so maybe that's alack of transparency, to be
honest.
SPEAKER_01 (32:43):
Well, hey, this is the transparent nature podcast,
right?
And it doesn't get any more realthan this, right?
SPEAKER_02 (32:49):
Yeah, yes.
SPEAKER_01 (32:50):
But that's a good point that you touched on
because uh when we look atperformance, uh really how do we
build someone's performance?
Yeah, it's not a one-yearconversation.
SPEAKER_02 (33:03):
Uh-uh.
SPEAKER_01 (33:04):
It's also not a one-year rating, right?
It's something that uh you Ilike to say you having you're
you you gotta have intentionalconversations.
And as you see things come up,you need to address them, right?
And how do you address it?
Is it uh a corrective approachor is it more of a one-on-one,
(33:26):
hey, let me help and coach you,right?
And so these are conversationsthat we need to have in our
workplaces that again, it's morethan just a one-year or two-year
conversation.
I I I I used to tell my leaders,hey, give me feedback as you see
it.
As you as if you see a gap, ifyou see something missing, if
(33:48):
you see me going in the wrongdirection, I need you to let me
know immediately.
SPEAKER_02 (33:53):
Please.
SPEAKER_01 (33:59):
And I'm like, I never heard you say anything
about that.
So why would you put that on myright hand?
SPEAKER_00 (34:05):
Yeah.
No, they're they're crazy.
Do you know where performancereviews came from?
Like the history of where theycame from.
SPEAKER_01 (34:13):
Tell us about it.
SPEAKER_00 (34:14):
Okay.
It it's it makes sense when whenyou know this, is that they
actually came from processesthat were used in the World War
I military system to determinewho should rise in the ranks.
So that's why we have rating andranking as part of our
performance management, becauseit was literally taken from this
(34:35):
military process and popped intoorganizations in the 1970s and
hasn't changed much since.
And in the 70s, it wasfunctional because the pace of
change was nothing like it istoday.
In the 70s, an annual review,like, depending on what your job
is, could be functional nowtoday to still be using this
(34:59):
system that's hierarchical, thatyou know, the only person who
can control my performance isme.
So, why are managers responsiblefor owning that process and not
me who's actually doing the job?
SPEAKER_01 (35:17):
That's good.
SPEAKER_00 (35:18):
And it's really antiquated.
And when we talk aboutcommunication at work, I think
these old systems are part ofthe reason why we see so much
dysfunction and communication atwork because the structures that
we have in place aren't working.
SPEAKER_01 (35:34):
Right, right.
And and you often hear that uhperformance reviews is the
beginning of successionplanning.
SPEAKER_02 (35:41):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (35:42):
And is that really the the right direction?
Is that really the right step?
Oh, man.
We have to really think aboutthose things, right?
All right.
So, anywho, that this is a greatconversation.
I probably gotta bring you backto have this conversation
because we can talk aboutperformance reviews and and
talking about the history andall of that, but I want to take
(36:04):
a moment to recognize October.
We know October is breast cancerawareness month, and in honor of
that, as you can see, I'vechanged my studio lights today
to pink as a reminder to supportthe fighters, celebrate the
survivors, and to honor thosethat we've lost.
So if you'd like to help make adifference, please consider
(36:25):
donating to the Susan G.
Coleman Foundation.
There's a link in thedescription below where you can
click that link and donate tothe foundation.
Every dollar helps in theresearch for a cure.
All right now.
I also want to also recognize uhsome people.
Um, on my last episode, I sharedhey, if you um comment your name
(36:51):
or if you comment on uh theepisode, I'll give you a shout
out, right?
So I want to do that real quick.
Uh, we have Ace Ads, we haveHalo Vision Media, we have
Julius Sue Clean, we have DannyRogers from New York, and we
have Greta Sutton.
Thank you so much for listeningto the episode uh and supporting
(37:14):
the podcast.
Uh, it's really, really greatlyappreciated.
Before we get out of here, howcan people reach out to you?
Uh, how can organizations uhsay, hey, I want to utilize you
in your services?
SPEAKER_00 (37:28):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (37:28):
How can people find you?
SPEAKER_00 (37:30):
Uh, I you can find me on LinkedIn.
That's probably one of theeasiest ways.
I'm really active on there,Colette Revere.
And my company's name isOpen360.
And we have actually a better360 assessment than uh the
traditional 360.
Our goal is to really replacesome of these old performance
(37:52):
processes with psychologicallyhealthy and functional ways of
communicating and sharingfeedback in the workplace.
So you can find informationabout all the stuff that we
offer at uh myopen360.com.
SPEAKER_01 (38:09):
And guess what?
We'll have the link in thedescription below.
So if you want to connect withCollette, you'll be able to do
so uh again within thedescription.
At the end of the day,communication isn't just about
what comes out of your mouth,it's about what people receive
and perceive.
If you want to lead, grow, andbuild trust, you have to
(38:32):
communicate like someone whoactually cares about being
understood and not just heard.
So before you say, HR is in mybusiness again, ask yourself,
did you communicate well?
Or does my communications suck?
Or did you just never say whatneeded to be said?
(38:52):
So I'm Prince Tate.
And until next time, keepnavigating your career with
confidence and clarity.
See you then.
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