Prince Tate teams up with the brilliant Dr. Mary M.J. McConner to break down the big buzzword in today’s workplace—DEI (Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion).
They’re keeping it real as they unpack what DEI actually means, tackle common myths, and dive into how political noise is shaking up the way we talk about inclusion at work. From explaining how DEI differs from affirmative action to highlighting why everyone benefits from these efforts, this conversation is one you don’t want to miss.
Dr. McConner brings the heat with fresh insights, emphasizing community, the role of the EEOC, and how organizations can truly support their people—not just check boxes. It’s informative, honest, and packed with the kind of clarity that makes this podcast your go-to for real HR talk.
Key Takeaways:
🔍 DEI is under the microscope in today’s political world.
🌍 Diversity includes way more than just race and gender.
⚖️ Equity is about leveling the playing field—not giving handouts.
🤝 Inclusion = belonging for everyone.
❌ DEI ≠ hiring unqualified people.
✅ When done right, DEI helps all employees thrive.
🎭 Some companies are rebranding DEI to dodge backlash.
🧠 Staying informed and building community helps you navigate the noise.
🛡️ The EEOC is still here to protect employee rights.
💛 A people-first mindset is the real key to a healthy workplace culture.
Connect with Dr. MJ McConner: https://www.linkedin.com/in/drmjmcconner/
🔔 Subscribe for more tips on workplace survival and career success!
🎙️ Got a burning question for your career?
👉 Submit A Question
💼 Want to share your insights?
👉 Be A Guest
🌐 Connect with the Transparent HR Podcast on Social Media:
YouTube
TikTok
LinkedIn
💼 Connect with Prince Tate
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Today's episode is all about what the DEI diversity
, equity and inclusion as DEIinitiatives are being
increasingly scrutinized.
In today's political landscape,this topic is more relevant
than ever.
From corporate policies tostate and federal legislation,
DEI has sparked heated debates.
(00:21):
That goes beyond the workplace,so we're asking what does DEI
really mean in today's climate,how has the political
conversation impacted its rolein the workplace, and what does
it mean for the future ofinclusion in our society?
So stay tuned for theconversation, hey, and welcome
(00:51):
back to the Transparent Naturepodcast, where we bring real
conversations to help younavigate your career and
workplace challenges.
It's your host, Prince Tate,and thank you so much for
joining us today.
We have a very exciting episodefor you today and I can't wait
to dive into the conversation.
If you are new to listening tothe Transparent Nature podcast,
(01:15):
I want you to go, share it witha friend and hit that subscribe
button.
Make sure you follow us to seeall of the episodes that we have
coming out.
We also have career chats thatare short, bite-sized
inspiration quotes and all aboutcareers.
So we want you to listen in onour episodes that come out
(01:37):
weekly.
Again, if you've been enjoyingthe show, we'd love for you to
again hit that subscribe button,share the episode with someone
who can benefit from it, andalso we want you to leave us a
review.
We've been getting a lot ofcomments, feedback from my
personal LinkedIn as well as thepodcast LinkedIn, but guess
what?
We want you to share yourthoughts about the podcast on
(02:01):
Apple, on Spotify, oniHeartRadio, so please make sure
you do that.
Our guest today is Dr Mary MJMcConner.
She goes by Dr MJ, a globalthought leader in workplace
belonging and inclusiveleadership.
As the founder of InclusiveExcellence Consulting, Dr
(02:22):
McConner, also known as Dr MJ,works with organizations
worldwide to create inclusivecultures that thrive.
A proud member of the hard ofhearing and dyslexic communities
, she combines her livedexperience with cutting edge
insights to help leaders fosterinnovation and authenticity in
(02:42):
the workplace.
Innovation and authenticity inthe workplace.
Dr MJ's work has been featuredin prominent outlets such as US
News and World Report, BusinessInsider, Afrotech, as well as
Fox.
In a time when DEI is at theforefront of national
conversations spanning corporatepolicies, political debates and
even new legislation, Dr MJ'sinsight is more critical than
(03:07):
ever before.
Dr McConnor, Dr MJ, welcome tothe Transparent Nature podcast.
How are you doing today?
Speaker 2 (03:14):
I'm doing good and I'm excited to be here and, like
you said, this is very much ahot topic and I have a lot of
thoughts, but I also have a lotof thoughts guided and
researched, so I don't want itto be one of those things where
it seems like it's just opinions.
A lot of what I talk about willbe actual facts, evidence-based
, fact-based.
This is what's going down rightnow in our country.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Yeah Well, welcome to the podcast.
Look, I shared a snippet of herbio and this is a really
impressive doctor here.
I mean, she's doing a lot ofgreat work, and I'm also proud
to say that we both sit on theboard with SHRM Memphis here in
Memphis, tennessee.
(03:57):
So it's much of an honor tohave you on the show today, dr
MJ.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Thank you, I appreciate you and shout out to
SHRM Memphis.
I just feel like we have one ofthe cooler chapters in the
country, of course, I'm biased,I teach about bias.
Right, I acknowledge my bias,but we do have like a great
chapter with so many great HRprofessionals, so I'm really
glad to be here with you.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
Yes, yes, as you know , I lead the young professional
space and you know we've beendoing a lot of great things in
2025.
So, hey, this is not aboutsharing Memphis.
This is about, again, the hottopic that we're going to talk
about with the DEI.
So, before we get into thisconversation, I want to ask
(04:40):
something today.
Want to ask something todaywhat is a pit peeve of yours, a
workplace pit peeve, whetherthat's something positive or
negative that you have.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
I got a good one.
So, as somebody who has livedthrough this personally, and I
have found myself guilty of thisin the past and I had to check
myself micromanaging is one ofthose things, and I had to check
myself.
Micromanaging is one of thosethings.
See you, see your face, listen,I think.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
I've lived through that.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
I think every person in the workforce at some point
has either lived through it orwill live through it, or they're
going to encounter somebodyelse who lives through it.
And I recently just had to havea conversation with a person.
I do some executive coachingand I'm like you know you have
some really talented people onyour team.
You have to trust them to dotheir job.
So I think that's one of thosethings.
I think a lot of people canrelate to that.
But I think it's one of thosethings If you're coachable, you
can unlearn that behavior.
But oh, it drives me up a wall.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
We got to let our people dowhat they do best.
You know when to move out theway.
Yeah, you know, I think it'sall about trust.
It is like you have to trustyour team right, especially if
you are the one that hired themcome on, come on, say it again
exactly you know if you, if youare the one that hired them, you
(06:02):
need to trust.
Trust that you number one, thatyou made a good decision to hire
them.
Right, because it firstreflects your leadership style
in ensuring that you are hiringthe best talent, not just talent
, but the best personality, thebest person that works well with
you and your team.
Right, and so you have to again, like you said, trust your team
(06:22):
members.
I think it's all aboutempowering great leaders,
empower their employees, and so,again, it's all about trust,
it's all about empowerment, soyou don't have to micromanage
and check on what they're doingevery single day, right?
So, I think I'm I'm in alignmentwith what you said, that that
(06:44):
is one of my pet peeves as well.
But you know, it's like if youare dealing with a micromanager,
then hey, you may want tolisten to one of my episodes I
think it's episode seven whereit talks about toxic leadership,
how to navigate toxic leadersand so you may want to go back
(07:05):
and listen to that episode.
So let's get into theconversation.
Hey, we may do stuff a littledifferent on this episode.
So, hey, if you are listening,make sure, if you're driving,
pull over to the side, because Idon't want you to get into an
accident.
No, I'm just kidding, I don'twant you to get into an accident
(07:25):
.
No, I'm just kidding, but realquick, if you're listening to
this episode, I want you tolisten to this quick disclaimer
the views and opinions expressedon the Transparent Nature
podcast are those of the hostand guests and does not
necessarily reflect the views oropinions of the organizations
or businesses which we areaffiliated with.
The content shared is intendedfor entertainment and
(07:48):
educational purposes only.
Any advice given should not beconstrued as legal, hr or
professional advice.
Listeners are encouraged toseek personalized guidance from
certified professionals fortheir specific needs.
Now let's get back into theepisode.
Well, hey, we're back from thedisclaimer.
(08:10):
I had to share that justbecause I don't want to get in
trouble, right, if you work inHR and compliance, you know, and
so I definitely want to postthat and share that information
with you.
So the Hot Topic DEI.
It's been a conversation thatactually we've been talking
(08:31):
about well before 2025.
It's something it just didn'tappear out of thin air.
This conversation has beengoing on well into 2024.
And then, of course, now we'reseeing the effects from it.
This conversation has beengoing on well into 2024.
And then, of course, now we'reseeing the effects from it.
A lot of people have beentalking about DEI, a lot of
(08:52):
people who are not experts inthis field, a lot of people who
don't even work in HR.
You know just influencers outthere that just want to talk
about it but haven't done theresearch.
And again, dr MJ, you talkedabout you doing the research,
right, so let's talk about it.
What is DEI and what is it not?
(09:13):
How can you or how do youdefine it and what are some
misconceptions people have aboutDEI in the current political
climate?
Speaker 2 (09:22):
I love starting with this question for several
reasons, because I do thinkthere is a lot of misinformation
and disinformation out there.
So here's what I'm gonna do.
When we talk about diversity,equity, inclusion they're three
separate words, right?
They each?
have very specific things thatthey're targeting and specific
areas that they're seeking toaddress in the workplace.
So let's start with that D.
So diversity, when you thinkabout it, simply means range.
(09:46):
It means difference.
So you think about all thedifferences that people bring
into a workplace culture.
I think a lot of times we focuson very specific differences,
so sometimes we think, oh,diversity race, gender when it's
so much broader than that.
And so one thing you pointedout, you talked about, you know
my dyslexia and hard of hearing,and so that's something I'm
very transparent and honestabout, and so we have to think
(10:09):
about it Like it's so muchbigger than just race and gender
you have.
You have ability, you haveveteran status, you have
socioeconomic status.
So it's like all of thesedifferent things that people
bring to the workplace.
Right, that's the diversitypiece.
Then you get to the E.
Now, this is where I get themost.
Isn't that like preferentialtreatment and that goes into
(10:30):
that?
second, part of your question.
We'll get to that second partabout the misinformation.
But E is for equity, and sowhat equity is designed to do in
its truest form is to create alevel playing field where there
may not be a level playing field.
So equity, what it is not, itis not preferential treatment,
(10:52):
it is not about doing somethingfor one group and not doing it
for another, right.
It's about thinking about okay,are there certain individuals
or groups in the workforce whomay not have the same access to
opportunities?
So that's equity in its truestform.
It's trying to get everybody tohave access to a level playing
(11:13):
field, right.
That's the E We'll come back tothat, and then the I is
inclusion, and I think inclusionis one of those areas that gets
the least resistant, in myopinion, just based on what I've
seen.
So inclusion is thinking aboutthe intentionality of how we
make sure every person in ourworkplace feels that they are an
(11:33):
active member of the team, theyfeel like they are welcomed,
they feel like they, they belongthere, right and everybody.
When you think about humanpsychology I got a psychology
degree, but so this is like myjam right here.
When you think about humanpsychology I got a psychology
degree, but so this is like myjam right here there is actually
psychology behind inclusivityand belonging, when a person
feels like they belong in aculture and they feel included
(11:54):
they actually experience thesame emotions as like eating ice
cream or you know somethingthat brings them a lot of joy.
But when they feel excluded,there are people who actually
feel actual symptoms and painand anxiety, stress.
So it really, it really isimportant to think about it from
that perspective too, cause alot of people say like, oh, the
bottom line, you know how doesthis impact how much revenue we
(12:16):
bring in?
But it's, yeah, it impacts thebottom line.
But we also have to think aboutpeople.
Are people, every person, Idon't care who you are, at some
point in time wants to feel likethey belong to something bigger
than themselves.
They want to feel that sense ofcommunity.
So, in its truest form, that'swhat DEI is Now going back to,
what it's not, what is it not?
(12:37):
And I think this is why we'rein the situation we're in right
now.
Right, because there is so muchmisinformation about what DEI
is Okay.
So DEI is not aboutpreferential treatment.
It's not about hiring folks whoare unqualified.
I have heard that time and timeagain and you'll even hear
(12:59):
people say like, oh, that mustbe a DEI hire, insinuating that
somehow they are not qualifiedfor the position to be a DEI
hire, insinuating that somehowthey are not qualified for the
position.
As HR practitioners, we know weare not trying to hire
unqualified folks to come in ourorganizations.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
We need the best talent right.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
We need the best talent and we also have to think
about it in terms of okay, howare we creating opportunities to
make sure that people haveaccess to the jobs that we're
advertising, or whatever thatposition may be?
So it's more of recognizing arethere talented folks who are
getting overlooked?
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Are there qualified.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Emphasis on the qualified.
Are there qualified people whoare getting overlooked, who don
not, who don't have the sameaccess, because maybe they have
issues with transportation,maybe they take the bus, maybe
they don't have a car.
So many things to consider, andso that's what DEI is, in its
truest form and, unfortunately,I think, because of all the
(14:00):
misinformation, especially in anage where you have, like, a lot
of technology, a lot of AI,it's really easy for people,
like you said, the influencersjust upload and stuff saying oh,
this is what it is and whatit's not.
I think it's really importantfor us to have these kinds of
conversations so we can reallyaddress what it is and who it is
.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
Yeah, one thing that you stated you were talking
about, you know qualifiedcandidates and ensuring that.
You know, basically, we'relooking elsewhere.
For example, there areorganizations who may not
recruit at HBCU colleges, right,and so what it's saying is, hey
(14:43):
, have we considered, have welooked at going to HBCUs instead
of just what they call it PWI,right, pwi.
And I think that I think thatwe have to.
You know, basically, stop theshenanigans of you know, this
(15:05):
person is just a DEI hire, right.
We have to look at it and sayyou know what?
Are they qualified to do thejob?
And if they are qualified to dothe job, they should be a
candidate for this position,right.
Another thing that I thoughtthat I thought about was really,
as individuals go through youknow applications, and one thing
(15:30):
people say that you know you,the best way to find a job is
through your network, right, andso that automatically that's
what I thought about they maynot have the same access or the
same network to get that jobthat that other person may be
(15:51):
able to get that job.
Right, they may not have thatmother, that cousin, that uncle,
have that mother, that cousin,that uncle, that neighbor who
helps everybody in theneighborhood to get a job right.
They may not have that right.
They may live in a communitywhere these individuals really
(16:13):
may not work, or they work inblue collar jobs Right, and
don't really have the access tosay, hey, let me connect with
somebody in that field who canhelp me get a job, not only that
, who want to help me get a jobRight.
So that was definitely onething that I thought about as
you were talking.
So, as we're talking about DEIright, another thing that's been
(16:39):
coming up is affirmative action, and a lot of people have been
saying that affirmative actionis slowly going away or it's
already gone, right.
But let me ask you this how arethey different and why is this
distinction crucial as DEIinitiatives face challenges in
(17:01):
the political landscape?
Speaker 2 (17:02):
That's good, that's real good.
So the difference is one ismandated and the other isn't.
So affirmative action wasactually enacted in 1961 under
President Kennedy, and so whataffirmative action was designed
to do was to make sure thatcontractors were not being
discriminated against because oftheir race national origin
(17:24):
right.
So this is 1961, when thatexecutive order was put into
place.
And so you kind of look at thetimeline and then you look at
the 1964 Civil Rights Act, whichis Title VII, and then you look
at 1965, which is Title VII,and then you look at 1965,
president Lyndon B Johnsonexpanded the affirmative action.
So the difference is those areactual executive orders that
were put in place.
(17:45):
So the EEOC actually wascreated during that time, during
President Kennedy's presidency.
So that was back in the 1960s.
So diversity, equity, inclusion, is essentially kind of it's
like a child of affirmativeaction, but it's not necessarily
.
There aren't the same man, samemandates put in place for that,
(18:19):
so, but what it's designed to dois to help organizations think
about OK, how are we making surethat we're creating that
equitable, inclusive, diverseclimate so our people can thrive
and so that our organizationsthrive?
And so it's not necessarily.
There aren't any laws in placesaying that an organization has
to have DEI policies in place.
But I want to emphasize thisthere are also no laws, there
are no laws currently sayingthat diversity, equity and
(18:40):
inclusion is illegal, eventhough there are certain
executive orders that have beenput I know I'm trying not to
make it too complicatedbasically, organizations, as
long as they are adhering to thelaws that are in place, that
are currently in place, thathave been in place, that have
been in place, then what theyare doing is legal.
(19:00):
And I'll also advise this Ifyou have any doubt about whether
or not a DEI policy orinitiative you have in place is
legal or not or is something youcan do, I would advise talking
to an employment lawyer, generalcounsel, somebody in your.
HR team who really has anunderstanding of loss, but it
does get a little confusing, butthere are certain mandates in
(19:22):
place that do protectorganizations and protect people
.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
Yeah.
So I mean I want to ask youthis Okay, do you think
affirmative action is under theradar, like it's going away is
under the radar?
Speaker 2 (19:38):
like it's going away.
You know what?
I'll tell you this because Iworked in higher education and
when I saw the Supreme Courtoverturn the affirmative action
as it relates to admissions forcollege students, I did have
some concerns.
I said, okay, so they'restarting with colleges and
universities.
And usually what happens whenyou have those kind of things
(20:00):
happen?
What ends up happening is itdoes go into other sectors.
So it's like okay, we startwith colleges and universities,
then we'll go to government,then we go to nonprofits and
it's harder to controlcorporations because they're
private entities.
There is a possibility, but Iwill also say because of the
checks and balances we have inplace or that should be in place
(20:23):
within our society.
We may not get to that point,but it's kind of hard to tell,
because there are a lot ofthings right now where federal
judges are blocking it left andright, where it's like, nope,
nope, this is still legal.
You can't do that and so makingsure that people aren't
overreaching, because we do havethree branches of government
for a reason.
So it's such a tough question.
(20:45):
It's hard to say right now ifyou would have asked me this
eight years ago.
Ten years ago, I said, no, it'shere to stay.
You know, this is our country.
We're built on diversity andpeople.
You, you know from all over.
We're a melting pot, but nowit's a possibility.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
But we don't know for sure yet.
But again, there are certainmandates that are very much
still in place, and so we justhave to make sure that we are
aware of what's happening.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
Yeah, yeah, let's get a little bit back.
Step back a little bit.
Dei there's also a lot ofconversations out there about
really who benefits most fromDEI initiatives and believe it
or not, as a lot of this stuffwas coming out and information
(21:37):
and changes about DEI, again,there's a lot of people that
share more information about itand there's facts on the website
about it, if you want to doyour research, but I want to ask
you you're the expert right whobenefits or who have benefited
most from DEI initiatives?
Speaker 2 (22:01):
Yeah.
So it's kind of similar toaffirmative action and I will
say there are certain gendersand ethnicities that may have
benefited a little bit more thanothers, but I want to say this
this is how I'm going to answerthis question, because it is
when done correctly, there isnobody on the planet who would
not benefit from DEI.
When done correctly, there isnobody on the planet.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
who would not benefit from DEI?
Speaker 2 (22:19):
That includes cisgender white men, christian
white men, you know, whatever itwhoever?
it may be, when done correctly,everybody benefits from it.
It's almost like universaldesign.
Are you familiar with universaldesign?
I can explain it real quick.
So I do a lot of work when itcomes to Americans with
Disabilities Act, so ADA, and sowe have this thing we do in the
(22:44):
workplace called universaldesign.
And so it's like you design itwith accessibility, inclusivity
in mind in the beginning, andeverybody will benefit from it.
So you may not even haveemployees who need
accommodations because it'salready designed that way, and
so it's a similar principle withDEI.
When you think about it, whenit's done correctly, and you're
really thinking about how can weensure that everyone is
(23:04):
benefiting from this?
There's nobody who wouldn'tbenefit from it.
So that's how I look at it, andI do think part of the reason
where we've seen so muchpushback is because you do have
certain folks in certainorganizations that may have
focused on one aspect of DEIwithout thinking about it
holistically, and so I do thinkthat's part of the reason we're
(23:25):
experiencing the pushback weexperience.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
Wow, I love that take on it, and I don't think I've
heard anybody say it the way yousaid it.
Right, and I think that we allhave to think about it in a way
of you know, if we are moreinclusive or we're more diverse,
it's going to help us to getdifferent perspectives,
(23:52):
especially as, in thinking aboutit from a business standpoint,
it's definitely going to help usto reach more right, reach more
people and, especially if we'reselling a product or service,
we're providing that.
I think that DEI initiativesare really important.
Now let me ask you this,because you know, I think that
(24:15):
too, I've been hearing a lot oforganizations are starting to
change the name, and these arepublic, I mean, these are
private corporations, but youknow, we've all been hearing
about the corporateorganizations.
That's pushing back Right, likewe're not doing anything at all
(24:36):
right, and I think there's somecurrent protests going on.
I won't say any names, butagain, I think that, as it
relates to really organizationschanging the name, what are your
thoughts about that?
Speaker 2 (24:56):
Yeah, I get it.
I'll say this Initially, when Ilearned of different
organizations changing the name,I was like, ah, they caved.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
I'm being 100% straight up honest.
I was like, no, don't caveunder pressure, they still have
the initiative, but they're justchanging the name.
Right, we're just calling itequity or inclusivity.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
But I will say my perspective on it has changed.
Here's why Because initially Iwas like, okay, don't change the
name, keep it.
But now it's more of okay, ifwe know that this is going to be
polarizing for some people andit's going to create hostility
in the workplace or hostilitytowards your customer base, or
(25:41):
whatever it may be.
If you happen to rebrand andrethink this is what needs to be
done, then so be it.
I'm absolutely in support ofthat now, especially because of
the witch hunt that's happening.
We know that there are actualorganizations.
There are websites now that arelooking like who's doing DEI
work, right, it's getting tothat point.
So I will say this I feel likethe majority of organizations
(26:08):
that have either rebranded orthe ones that look like they may
have stepped back, a lot ofthem are actually still doing
the work and they're just likeyou said.
They repackaged it, renamed itand they're just thinking
through it like, ok, how can wecontinue to do this in a way
that's legal?
How can we do this withoutcausing any tension?
(26:28):
But it's tricky because I look,I can, I can sit here, you know
, cut me off when you need to,because if you look at certain
organizations that decided topull back now, they're
struggling right, and where some, they may not be struggling
while others are.
And I think it's important fororganizations to think about
(26:49):
okay, who's your target market?
Are you going to isolate thepeople who support you most if
you do decide to put back, pullback or vice versa, right?
So, thinking about it from abusiness standpoint, I always
feel like it's always going tobe good for business.
If done correctly, it will begood for business.
And we see, like in somesituations when you do pull back
(27:09):
, essentially what you'retelling your customers or what
you're telling your employees ishey, we don't value you or we
don't value your experience, andyou never want to do that.
So you do have to be veryintentional with how you go
about implementing things orchoosing to scale back on things
, because people are watching.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
Yeah, definitely, people are watching and I think
that there are a lot of I'm justgoing to say it churches out
there that are using theirplatform to, I want to say,
persuade their thoughts intotheir congregation about the
(27:50):
situation.
But if anything I want peopleto realize is do your own
research.
Don't do it just becauseeverybody else is doing it.
Do it for your research.
It was another podcast that Iwas listening to.
I think it's called the HRUnlocked Podcast and they were
(28:11):
talking about you know, hey, ifyou're trying to protest, hey,
if you're going, if you'retrying to protest, remember the
individuals that are a minority,that have products on the shelf
.
If you're going to pull back,remember that that business
they're depending on yoursupport.
(28:31):
They're depending on yoursupport.
Where they may not have thatthe product is tailored for you
and I like let's just, let'sjust be honest, right and so, if
you're going to pull back, umand again, ensure that you have
done your research and if youwant to stand for something,
(28:52):
stand for it, right, but but doit knowing that you've done your
part with educating yourselfand and and even realizing the
impact that it's going to make.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
Yeah, yeah, and that you know.
That's a fair point and I'm I'mreally glad you brought that up
because we do have to thinkabout are there certain
individuals, certainorganizations that will, that
will be on the receiving end ofthat, that boycott?
Right?
And, like you said, it does goback to really understanding
research, understanding theimpact your decision has.
(29:25):
Can you buy directly from thatparticular seller, you know, and
so it's.
It's very complicated andmultifaceted, yeah, but no, I, I
.
What I really appreciate yousaying is that, like we have to
take the opportunity to reallylearn what's really going on.
How can we navigate thisparticular climate right now?
Speaker 1 (29:44):
Yeah, yeah.
So let's talk about this.
I think people are afraid, Ithink people are scared.
People are not.
They're not sure what's goingto happen a year from now, or
(30:07):
even, let alone, six months fromnow.
As it relates to the impact ofthe pushback in DEI initiatives,
the Title VII of the CivilRights Act is still here and I
think, as it relates to in theworkplace, again people are not
thinking like, hey, there,there's still laws in place to
help protect certain individuals, certain types of people
(30:28):
related to age, related todiscrimination and all those
things that that Civil RightsAct talks about, and all those
things that that Civil RightsAct talks about.
So we know it's still in place.
We're seeing, but we're seeingdebates about its protections in
the workplace, and so can youreally explain how this law
protects employees today andwhat are some limitations?
Speaker 2 (30:52):
So protections are still in place and so Title VII
is specifically around the CivilRights Act of 1964, right that
protects people fromdiscrimination based on race,
based on creed, ethnicity andsome other different identities
right.
That's why I said I think it'sreally important for HR
practitioners to make sure thatif we let's say we don't have
(31:14):
in-house general counsel, or youknow we don't have in-house
general counsel, or you know wedon't have a lawyer that we're
working with, to stay asinformed as possible.
Because, right now, what we'reseeing is some fear mongering
happening about oh, you can't dothis, you can't do that, right,
when actually there are stillvery much laws and protections
in place.
So there's so many differentways to stay informed.
Now you want to make sure yougo to a credible source, right,
(31:37):
you want to make sure you talkabout the misinformation, but
think about you know, like thoseemployment law firms or
employment lawyers or differentyou know organizations that
specialize in HR work and thosekind of organizations, and how
you can stay informed and stayin different communities Like I
(31:59):
know, I'm a part of, likedifferent LinkedIn HR groups and
I'm sure you are too and abunch of us are.
But really think about how youcan stay informed as possible
because, as you said, right nowthose protections are very much
still in place and it would takeCongress to actually overturn
some of this, not just executiveorders.
So but yeah, yeah it, thoseprotections are still there.
(32:24):
I'll say that Currently, inthis moment, they are still
there.
Speaker 1 (32:30):
Yeah yeah.
So you got any tips foremployees navigating this
challenging landscape.
I know that I've personallyseen some challenges and have
heard different stories again onyou know from different HR
groups.
You know people are very vocalabout it.
How can employees navigate theevolving DEI landscape,
(32:55):
especially when the politicaldiscourse around it feels
polarized?
Speaker 2 (33:01):
I would say one of the things that has helped
several professionals I know,and included myself, is making
sure that you have a communityright now, and by that that can
look a lot of different ways,especially for us in HR.
You know we kind of we neededmore.
(33:22):
Ok, let's gather, let's talkthrough this, because sometimes
we can get so passionate about acertain certain something
that's happening or somethingwe've seen happen or something
that we've heard, and sometimeswe have to step back and take
the passion out of it just alittle bit and maybe talk to
another professional like, okay,this is what was just done, how
can we address this?
And having that collective,that collective, you know
(33:46):
community can really help, andespecially like same thing for
employees you know thinkingabout.
Are there people in theworkforce or in the workplace
who you feel like you couldreally talk to about some of the
things that are happening?
Because it is a lot.
Every time you read somethingor turn on the news, it can feel
(34:06):
incredibly overwhelming andwhat I don't want people to do
is bury their heads in the sand,because that's what ends up
happening a lot of times, right,people feel like, oh, it's too
much.
Every time I turn on the newsit's some new law.
Even as HR professionals, wewant to bury our heads in the
sand and be like.
I cannot take another changeLike.
I can't try to keep up with allthe legal side of it, but I
(34:28):
would say to stay informed butalso, you know, protect your
well-being and everything.
Don't feel like you have toconsume information constantly,
but stay informed and thinkabout what your community is
going to look like, so that youdo have that camaraderie and
you're not you don't feel soalone in all the changes that
are happening.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
You know, what about those employees who work in
organizations and let's just saythey don't feel supported
because of these changes?
They're hearing crazy commentsand statements and just really
disheartening things.
That is really affecting theirmorale, it's affecting their
(35:10):
experience.
How can they specifically, orwhat are some things they can do
, to get some support but alsostill have a job?
Speaker 2 (35:21):
Yeah, and that's always tough being in an
organization where you feel likelike you're the only one who's
kind of experiencing somethingor going through like a tough
time.
When I talk about community, Ido want to emphasize that
community does not have to beinternal.
About community I do want toemphasize that community does
not have to be internal.
So, if you need to seek maybeokay, I'll say this so, like a
(35:42):
lot of times in organizationsyou may have, like employee
resource groups, affinitynetworks and things like that,
but maybe your organizationdoesn't have that, that does not
mean that you cannot have thatsame support outside of your
organization.
So if you need to build thatcommunity outside of your
organization, then do so Because, like I said, you know I'm a
part of different HR groups andDEI groups and like half of
(36:06):
these people I've never met, youknow.
But it's just nice being able totalk about, oh, you're
experiencing this too, yeah, metoo, you know.
And so just know that there arepeople out there who may have
shared lived experiences.
And I think the biggest thingright now is we don't want
people to feel isolation.
We don't want them to feel likethey're alone in anything that
(36:27):
they're experiencing Right now.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
What my heart is telling me to share is I think
right now is a time thatorganizations we need to love on
our employees.
I think this is the time weneed to not just do it because
every other organization isdoing it, to come and think,
(37:02):
like, if we have to rename ourDEI programs and what it is and
what it's not, and I think thatthis is the time to say you know
what we value every employeethat is working in our
organization, because if it'snot for the employees that come
in every day, whether that's inthe office or remote, that's a
hot topic too.
I think that, again, this isthe moment to do it.
(37:26):
This is the moment to havetransparent conversations and
even to your employees andsaying hey, this is what we're
going to do to ensure you stillfeel valued.
So, if you're listening today,if you're listening to this
episode, whether you're asupervisor, a team lead, a
(37:47):
manager, director, anddefinitely if you're in the
C-suite, have conversations withyour legal team.
Have conversations with yourlegal team, have conversations
(38:10):
with the organization, the keystakeholders, about what are we
going to do to embrace all ofour employees and letting them
know that this is a place youwant to work at.
Just wanted to take that moment.
I felt it in my heart to sharethat for someone that's
listening today.
Whether you're in the US oracross the world, embrace your
employees and let them know thatyou value them.
Yeah, one last not this is notthe last question, but something
(38:33):
that I thought about that wedidn't really talk about, and I
think it's important to the EOC.
You know, I think for a lot ofpeople, people think that the
EOC is going to be dismantled aswell.
Speaker 2 (38:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:49):
What are your thoughts on this?
Because I think a lot of peopleI mean EOC, they love
discrimination claims, they lovethose retaliation claims, but
for a lot of people they thinklike I can't go to the EOC
anymore.
And mind you, we're not.
(39:10):
I'm not saying you need to goto the EOC.
What I'm saying is they arethere as a resource and as we
talk about community right, thatthat could be a community of
resource, right.
What's going on with the EEOCright now?
Speaker 2 (39:28):
Just based on what I know.
I actually know someone whoworks at the EEOC and we just
had a conversation about it.
So for those of you who've beenkeeping up and I'm sure most of
us have been keeping up, mostfolks listening you know that
there's a lot of layoffs andterminations happening in terms
of like government employees andvery specific sectors and, from
(39:48):
what I know, there werediscussions about downsizing the
EEOC.
Now, the EEOC is not the onlyorganization or government
agency that's looking atpotential downsizing.
We've seen it happen withothers.
But I do want to stresssomething that you said A lot of
times we think theseorganizations are no longer
(40:09):
there.
The EEOC is still very muchthere.
It is there and it's been theresince the 1960s.
Now, whether or not there willbe some potential cuts and
downsizes there, potentially,but I think it's important for
people to know that even withdownsizing, there are still
(40:29):
organizations in place.
It's just a matter of you maynot have as many employees there
anymore, so yeah, that'sanother one.
It's kind of like thataffirmative action question you
had.
It's really hard to say rightnow, but while it's still here,
we still have these protectionsand mandates.
So that's how we have to thinkabout it.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
Yeah, and let me ask you this, just just just in case
for that individual that islistening they're like what is
the EEOC?
I don't know what that is.
Tell us what that is.
What is it?
And you know, what do mostpeople go to them for?
Speaker 2 (41:06):
Yeah, so the EEOC stands for Equal Employment
Opportunity Commission, and sothat was started in the 1960s as
well, under President Kennedy'spresidency.
Started in the 1960s as wellunder President Kennedy's
presidency, and going back tothat first executive order that
I talked about when I talkedabout affirmative action, and so
that was put in placespecifically for individuals,
(41:26):
for workers who haddiscrimination claims that they
wanted to take before.
Well, they couldn't do it intheir workplaces, so they had to
take it before the commission,right?
This particular body that helpsdetermine whether or not
something is considereddiscriminatory or not.
And so that's their job, right?
(41:46):
Because they're supposed to bethis outside entity that's
subjective, whereas we know likean organization is going to do
everything it can to protectitself.
So when an employee comesforward, you know everybody's
not going to be objectiveinternally, so you have to have
this outside agency that cankind of help determine whether
or not something is indeeddiscriminatory.
So that's what it is, and it'sput in place for a reason
(42:09):
because we know like it's hardto be objective when you're
internal to an organizationoftentimes.
But you know you have thoseprotections in place.
It's like you know what I feellike this could be potential
disability discrimination orracial discrimination, gender
discrimination, whatever it maybe and so you are able to go to
that outside entity to take yourcase to them and they can kind
(42:32):
of determine whether or not itwas discrimination.
Speaker 1 (42:35):
Yeah, yeah.
One thing I want to encouragemy listeners is I want you to
and I think I'm a little biasedbecause I do work in HR but I
want you to, like, if you aredealing with certain situations
in your workplace and you'rehaving challenging moments, like
yeah, you can go to EOC, butensure that you give your
(42:59):
employee an opportunity toinvestigate what's going on.
You may not know the immediateactions they're taking to
address a certain situation, butgo to your HR representatives,
ensure that you are submittingthose claims, submitting those
(43:22):
disagreements, submitting andreally making sure that someone
is aware.
I think that a lot of employeesthink that HR is not their
friend, and we have an episodeon that.
It's not their friend and wehave an episode on that.
But I think that everyorganization is a little
(43:43):
different.
Yes, and if you've worked in theorganization in the past where
HR was definitely not yourfriend or not friendly, then
then make sure you give those HRreps, those H, those HR leaders
, an opportunity to address yourconcern, especially when we're
talking about discrimination.
But hey, the EOC is alwaysthere.
(44:05):
But it's my job to ensure thatyour voice is being heard and
that we try to mitigate whateverrisk there is in the
organization.
At the end of the day, I tellpeople all the time you are the
organization and if you don'trealize that, that you are a
part of the organization,sometimes people you know they
(44:28):
just get upset about it.
Ensure that you're talking withsomebody in your organization,
ensuring that you are followingthat chain of command to ensure
that your voice is being heard.
Speaker 2 (44:45):
Yeah, all right.
Last question oh, go ahead, andI was.
I was going to say a follow uptoday because I'm glad you said
that, because what I was not, Iwant to make sure I wasn't
saying like, oh, you know, wecan't be objective internally.
We absolutely can.
It's just there are going to becertain situations where you
know you have to follow theprocess.
Like you said, you follow thedue process, you go up the chain
(45:05):
in the organization and thensometimes it has to go beyond
just that.
So, but I'm glad you touched onthat and kind of emphasize no,
hr is still very much there fora reason.
Like you, you still want tofollow the process because, like
you said, in one organizationHR will have you back like oh
okay, all right, we know thishas come up, this person has
been recorded 50,000 times, weknow the supervisor by name, we
(45:26):
know exactly so and you know inin.
In that case, a lot of times HRwill step in and say okay, we
need to do executive coachingfor that person or whatever it
may be.
So you absolutely do want to,you know, go through the
internal change.
Speaker 1 (45:39):
So thank you for that yeah, yeah, no, no, no,
absolutely.
You know, I think again,because I'm an HR professional,
I have to say that right.
Yeah, because I think there'smoments where people, you know
they just don't give theiremployees an opportunity because
they're corporate, or or youknow they, you know executive
leaders, are making all themoney and they think that
(45:59):
they're just you know that theydon't have a voice.
You do have a voice, absolutelyAll right.
So our last question for today,just any last tips or insights
how can we ensure that theconversations about DEI remain
constructive, and not just inthe workplace, but within our
(46:20):
society as well?
Speaker 2 (46:22):
Oh, last thoughts.
This is good because I alwayshave like a bunch of thoughts,
but I'm like, ok, let's bring itall together.
I'm going to do a few, ifthat's OK.
I would say.
The first one is to rememberthat people people are at the
heart of an organization andthey always will be, Even as we
(46:42):
become more technologicallyadvanced and all that, and we
got all the AI and all thedifferent things.
I stand on this and I havealways stood on this, and a lot
of HR practitioners will tellyou the same you cannot function
without a healthy workplaceculture, and so we have to
remember that as we think aboutyou know all the different
attacks on certain aspects ofwhat we do, you know, as it
(47:04):
relates to DEI we have to sitback and ask ourselves but if we
don't center our people, if wedon't center inclusivity, what
impact will this have on ourworkplace culture?
What impact will this have onour people, their morale?
What impact will this have onour workplace culture?
What impact will this have onour people, their morale?
What impact will this have onour customers or whoever's
buying our products or whateverfield we may be in?
Right, and so I want us toalways have this people centered
(47:26):
approach in what we do andremember why we do what we do.
I would say another thing, kindof going back to something I
talked about a little bitearlier, because right now it
can feel really overwhelmingwith all the information coming
at us.
But just remember that you havepeople who are in the legal
(47:48):
profession for a reason.
You have people who are in incertain areas who can really
explain what's going on becauseyou have so much information
coming at you.
You may not always know what'sfact and what's fiction, but
just remember to make sure that,going back to that community
piece, have your core communityof folks you can consult, who
(48:09):
you can talk with, who you canactually get the real deal from.
Speaker 1 (48:12):
Like.
Speaker 2 (48:12):
OK, what's really going on, what's really what's
up with this mandate or whateverit may be, so that way you're
always informed as possible.
So yeah, I have so manydifferent things because it's
such an interesting time,because there's so much
happening, but I think that'sthose are my two biggest
(48:34):
takeaways for this particularconversation.
Now, if I come back, it may bedifferent, because I don't know
what it's going to look like sixmonths, a year from now.
I might be advising somethingtotally different, but right now
I think I think that's going tobe key.
Speaker 1 (48:49):
Yeah, I love what you say.
You have to build community.
Speaker 2 (48:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (48:54):
I think we are born for community.
We need people in our corners.
We need people who can help uswhen we are confused, when we're
not sure what to believe Right.
But not only that.
I think we also have to look tothe Lord, look unto Him, for
(49:16):
help and guidance on how wehandle certain situations, even
though what we see is not whatwe like right.
But thank you so much, dr MJ.
Before we close, I always liketo leave with an encouraging
note.
As we talk about and think aboutbalance, inclusion and
(49:36):
navigating today's challenges, Iwant to share this verse
Colossians 3, 23 through 24.
Whatever you do, work at itwith all your heart as working
for the Lord, not for humanmasters, since you know that you
will receive an inheritancefrom the Lord as a reward.
It is the Lord Christ you areserving.
(49:59):
Again, colossians 3, verse 23and 24.
This reminds us that, no matterthe external pressures or
debates we face, the work we dofor inclusion, justice and
equity matters deeply and is apart of a bigger picture and
purpose.
Dr MJ, thank you so much forjoining us today and sharing
(50:20):
such invaluable insights in thistime when DEI is not only
reshaping the workplace but alsobecoming a political
battleground.
Your perspective is incrediblytimely.
Again, we really appreciate youand your expertise and just
your transparency and honestabout our conversation that we
(50:43):
had today.
Tell us, dr MJ, how can peoplefind you and learn more about
the work that you do each andevery day?
Speaker 2 (50:51):
Yeah, I'll say so.
I do have a website, dr MJMcConner dot com, but I'm
actually most active on LinkedIn, so LinkedIn is my jam.
I do have Instagram andFacebook and everything and it's
all the same.
Handle Dr MJ McConner.
But if you really want toengage and you really want to
see like different posts andeverything because I try to be,
(51:13):
I try to post up to date thingsand what's happening and how it
relates to our field so I woulddefinitely say, connect with me
on LinkedIn.
I love LinkedIn.
Speaker 1 (51:21):
Yeah Well, thank you again.
If you've enjoyed today'sepisode, be sure to subscribe to
the Transparent Nature podcast,share it with a friend and
leave us a review.
We'd love it.
As DEI continues to shape theway we work and interact, your
support helps us to continuebringing you transparent and
(51:42):
practical HR insights tonavigate these challenging times
.
It's your host, prince Tate,and keep navigating your career
with clarity and confidence,even as we tackle the tough
conversations happening intoday's workforce.
Thank you, and we'll see you onthe next episode.
Today's episode is all about what the DEI diversity
, equity and inclusion as DEIinitiatives are being
increasingly scrutinized.
In today's political landscape,this topic is more relevant
than ever.
From corporate policies tostate and federal legislation,
DEI has sparked heated debates.
(00:21):
That goes beyond the workplace,so we're asking what does DEI
really mean in today's climate,how has the political
conversation impacted its rolein the workplace, and what does
it mean for the future ofinclusion in our society?
So stay tuned for theconversation, hey, and welcome
(00:51):
back to the Transparent Naturepodcast, where we bring real
conversations to help younavigate your career and
workplace challenges.
It's your host, Prince Tate,and thank you so much for
joining us today.
We have a very exciting episodefor you today and I can't wait
to dive into the conversation.
If you are new to listening tothe Transparent Nature podcast,
(01:15):
I want you to go, share it witha friend and hit that subscribe
button.
Make sure you follow us to seeall of the episodes that we have
coming out.
We also have career chats thatare short, bite-sized
inspiration quotes and all aboutcareers.
So we want you to listen in onour episodes that come out
(01:37):
weekly.
Again, if you've been enjoyingthe show, we'd love for you to
again hit that subscribe button,share the episode with someone
who can benefit from it, andalso we want you to leave us a
review.
We've been getting a lot ofcomments, feedback from my
personal LinkedIn as well as thepodcast LinkedIn, but guess
what?
We want you to share yourthoughts about the podcast on
(02:01):
Apple, on Spotify, oniHeartRadio, so please make sure
you do that.
Our guest today is Dr Mary MJMcConner.
She goes by Dr MJ, a globalthought leader in workplace
belonging and inclusiveleadership.
As the founder of InclusiveExcellence Consulting, Dr
(02:22):
McConner, also known as Dr MJ,works with organizations
worldwide to create inclusivecultures that thrive.
A proud member of the hard ofhearing and dyslexic communities
, she combines her livedexperience with cutting edge
insights to help leaders fosterinnovation and authenticity in
(02:42):
the workplace.
Innovation and authenticity inthe workplace.
Dr MJ's work has been featuredin prominent outlets such as US
News and World Report, BusinessInsider, Afrotech, as well as
Fox.
In a time when DEI is at theforefront of national
conversations spanning corporatepolicies, political debates and
even new legislation, Dr MJ'sinsight is more critical than
(03:07):
ever before.
Dr McConnor, Dr MJ, welcome tothe Transparent Nature podcast.
How are you doing today?
Speaker 2 (03:14):
I'm doing good and I'm excited to be here and, like
you said, this is very much ahot topic and I have a lot of
thoughts, but I also have a lotof thoughts guided and
researched, so I don't want itto be one of those things where
it seems like it's just opinions.
A lot of what I talk about willbe actual facts, evidence-based
, fact-based.
This is what's going down rightnow in our country.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Yeah Well, welcome to the podcast.
Look, I shared a snippet of herbio and this is a really
impressive doctor here.
I mean, she's doing a lot ofgreat work, and I'm also proud
to say that we both sit on theboard with SHRM Memphis here in
Memphis, tennessee.
(03:57):
So it's much of an honor tohave you on the show today, dr
MJ.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Thank you, I appreciate you and shout out to
SHRM Memphis.
I just feel like we have one ofthe cooler chapters in the
country, of course, I'm biased,I teach about bias.
Right, I acknowledge my bias,but we do have like a great
chapter with so many great HRprofessionals, so I'm really
glad to be here with you.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
Yes, yes, as you know , I lead the young professional
space and you know we've beendoing a lot of great things in
2025.
So, hey, this is not aboutsharing Memphis.
This is about, again, the hottopic that we're going to talk
about with the DEI.
So, before we get into thisconversation, I want to ask
(04:40):
something today.
Want to ask something todaywhat is a pit peeve of yours, a
workplace pit peeve, whetherthat's something positive or
negative that you have.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
I got a good one.
So, as somebody who has livedthrough this personally, and I
have found myself guilty of thisin the past and I had to check
myself micromanaging is one ofthose things, and I had to check
myself.
Micromanaging is one of thosethings.
See you, see your face, listen,I think.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
I've lived through that.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
I think every person in the workforce at some point
has either lived through it orwill live through it, or they're
going to encounter somebodyelse who lives through it.
And I recently just had to havea conversation with a person.
I do some executive coachingand I'm like you know you have
some really talented people onyour team.
You have to trust them to dotheir job.
So I think that's one of thosethings.
I think a lot of people canrelate to that.
But I think it's one of thosethings If you're coachable, you
can unlearn that behavior.
But oh, it drives me up a wall.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
We got to let our people dowhat they do best.
You know when to move out theway.
Yeah, you know, I think it'sall about trust.
It is like you have to trustyour team right, especially if
you are the one that hired themcome on, come on, say it again
exactly you know if you, if youare the one that hired them, you
(06:02):
need to trust.
Trust that you number one, thatyou made a good decision to hire
them.
Right, because it firstreflects your leadership style
in ensuring that you are hiringthe best talent, not just talent
, but the best personality, thebest person that works well with
you and your team.
Right, and so you have to again, like you said, trust your team
(06:22):
members.
I think it's all aboutempowering great leaders,
empower their employees, and so,again, it's all about trust,
it's all about empowerment, soyou don't have to micromanage
and check on what they're doingevery single day, right?
So, I think I'm I'm in alignmentwith what you said, that that
(06:44):
is one of my pet peeves as well.
But you know, it's like if youare dealing with a micromanager,
then hey, you may want tolisten to one of my episodes I
think it's episode seven whereit talks about toxic leadership,
how to navigate toxic leadersand so you may want to go back
(07:05):
and listen to that episode.
So let's get into theconversation.
Hey, we may do stuff a littledifferent on this episode.
So, hey, if you are listening,make sure, if you're driving,
pull over to the side, because Idon't want you to get into an
accident.
No, I'm just kidding, I don'twant you to get into an accident
(07:25):
.
No, I'm just kidding, but realquick, if you're listening to
this episode, I want you tolisten to this quick disclaimer
the views and opinions expressedon the Transparent Nature
podcast are those of the hostand guests and does not
necessarily reflect the views oropinions of the organizations
or businesses which we areaffiliated with.
The content shared is intendedfor entertainment and
(07:48):
educational purposes only.
Any advice given should not beconstrued as legal, hr or
professional advice.
Listeners are encouraged toseek personalized guidance from
certified professionals fortheir specific needs.
Now let's get back into theepisode.
Well, hey, we're back from thedisclaimer.
(08:10):
I had to share that justbecause I don't want to get in
trouble, right, if you work inHR and compliance, you know, and
so I definitely want to postthat and share that information
with you.
So the Hot Topic DEI.
It's been a conversation thatactually we've been talking
(08:31):
about well before 2025.
It's something it just didn'tappear out of thin air.
This conversation has beengoing on well into 2024.
And then, of course, now we'reseeing the effects from it.
This conversation has beengoing on well into 2024.
And then, of course, now we'reseeing the effects from it.
A lot of people have beentalking about DEI, a lot of
(08:52):
people who are not experts inthis field, a lot of people who
don't even work in HR.
You know just influencers outthere that just want to talk
about it but haven't done theresearch.
And again, dr MJ, you talkedabout you doing the research,
right, so let's talk about it.
What is DEI and what is it not?
(09:13):
How can you or how do youdefine it and what are some
misconceptions people have aboutDEI in the current political
climate?
Speaker 2 (09:22):
I love starting with this question for several
reasons, because I do thinkthere is a lot of misinformation
and disinformation out there.
So here's what I'm gonna do.
When we talk about diversity,equity, inclusion they're three
separate words, right?
They each?
have very specific things thatthey're targeting and specific
areas that they're seeking toaddress in the workplace.
So let's start with that D.
So diversity, when you thinkabout it, simply means range.
(09:46):
It means difference.
So you think about all thedifferences that people bring
into a workplace culture.
I think a lot of times we focuson very specific differences,
so sometimes we think, oh,diversity race, gender when it's
so much broader than that.
And so one thing you pointedout, you talked about, you know
my dyslexia and hard of hearing,and so that's something I'm
very transparent and honestabout, and so we have to think
(10:09):
about it Like it's so muchbigger than just race and gender
you have.
You have ability, you haveveteran status, you have
socioeconomic status.
So it's like all of thesedifferent things that people
bring to the workplace.
Right, that's the diversitypiece.
Then you get to the E.
Now, this is where I get themost.
Isn't that like preferentialtreatment and that goes into
(10:30):
that?
second, part of your question.
We'll get to that second partabout the misinformation.
But E is for equity, and sowhat equity is designed to do in
its truest form is to create alevel playing field where there
may not be a level playing field.
So equity, what it is not, itis not preferential treatment,
(10:52):
it is not about doing somethingfor one group and not doing it
for another, right.
It's about thinking about okay,are there certain individuals
or groups in the workforce whomay not have the same access to
opportunities?
So that's equity in its truestform.
It's trying to get everybody tohave access to a level playing
(11:13):
field, right.
That's the E We'll come back tothat, and then the I is
inclusion, and I think inclusionis one of those areas that gets
the least resistant, in myopinion, just based on what I've
seen.
So inclusion is thinking aboutthe intentionality of how we
make sure every person in ourworkplace feels that they are an
(11:33):
active member of the team, theyfeel like they are welcomed,
they feel like they, they belongthere, right and everybody.
When you think about humanpsychology I got a psychology
degree, but so this is like myjam right here.
When you think about humanpsychology I got a psychology
degree, but so this is like myjam right here there is actually
psychology behind inclusivityand belonging, when a person
feels like they belong in aculture and they feel included
(11:54):
they actually experience thesame emotions as like eating ice
cream or you know somethingthat brings them a lot of joy.
But when they feel excluded,there are people who actually
feel actual symptoms and painand anxiety, stress.
So it really, it really isimportant to think about it from
that perspective too, cause alot of people say like, oh, the
bottom line, you know how doesthis impact how much revenue we
(12:16):
bring in?
But it's, yeah, it impacts thebottom line.
But we also have to think aboutpeople.
Are people, every person, Idon't care who you are, at some
point in time wants to feel likethey belong to something bigger
than themselves.
They want to feel that sense ofcommunity.
So, in its truest form, that'swhat DEI is Now going back to,
what it's not, what is it not?
(12:37):
And I think this is why we'rein the situation we're in right
now.
Right, because there is so muchmisinformation about what DEI
is Okay.
So DEI is not aboutpreferential treatment.
It's not about hiring folks whoare unqualified.
I have heard that time and timeagain and you'll even hear
(12:59):
people say like, oh, that mustbe a DEI hire, insinuating that
somehow they are not qualifiedfor the position to be a DEI
hire, insinuating that somehowthey are not qualified for the
position.
As HR practitioners, we know weare not trying to hire
unqualified folks to come in ourorganizations.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
We need the best talent right.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
We need the best talent and we also have to think
about it in terms of okay, howare we creating opportunities to
make sure that people haveaccess to the jobs that we're
advertising, or whatever thatposition may be?
So it's more of recognizing arethere talented folks who are
getting overlooked?
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Are there qualified.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Emphasis on the qualified.
Are there qualified people whoare getting overlooked, who don
not, who don't have the sameaccess, because maybe they have
issues with transportation,maybe they take the bus, maybe
they don't have a car.
So many things to consider, andso that's what DEI is, in its
truest form and, unfortunately,I think, because of all the
(14:00):
misinformation, especially in anage where you have, like, a lot
of technology, a lot of AI,it's really easy for people,
like you said, the influencersjust upload and stuff saying oh,
this is what it is and whatit's not.
I think it's really importantfor us to have these kinds of
conversations so we can reallyaddress what it is and who it is
.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
Yeah, one thing that you stated you were talking
about, you know qualifiedcandidates and ensuring that.
You know, basically, we'relooking elsewhere.
For example, there areorganizations who may not
recruit at HBCU colleges, right,and so what it's saying is, hey
(14:43):
, have we considered, have welooked at going to HBCUs instead
of just what they call it PWI,right, pwi.
And I think that I think thatwe have to.
You know, basically, stop theshenanigans of you know, this
(15:05):
person is just a DEI hire, right.
We have to look at it and sayyou know what?
Are they qualified to do thejob?
And if they are qualified to dothe job, they should be a
candidate for this position,right.
Another thing that I thoughtthat I thought about was really,
as individuals go through youknow applications, and one thing
(15:30):
people say that you know you,the best way to find a job is
through your network, right, andso that automatically that's
what I thought about they maynot have the same access or the
same network to get that jobthat that other person may be
(15:51):
able to get that job.
Right, they may not have thatmother, that cousin, that uncle,
have that mother, that cousin,that uncle, that neighbor who
helps everybody in theneighborhood to get a job right.
They may not have that right.
They may live in a communitywhere these individuals really
(16:13):
may not work, or they work inblue collar jobs Right, and
don't really have the access tosay, hey, let me connect with
somebody in that field who canhelp me get a job, not only that
, who want to help me get a jobRight.
So that was definitely onething that I thought about as
you were talking.
So, as we're talking about DEIright, another thing that's been
(16:39):
coming up is affirmative action, and a lot of people have been
saying that affirmative actionis slowly going away or it's
already gone, right.
But let me ask you this how arethey different and why is this
distinction crucial as DEIinitiatives face challenges in
(17:01):
the political landscape?
Speaker 2 (17:02):
That's good, that's real good.
So the difference is one ismandated and the other isn't.
So affirmative action wasactually enacted in 1961 under
President Kennedy, and so whataffirmative action was designed
to do was to make sure thatcontractors were not being
discriminated against because oftheir race national origin
(17:24):
right.
So this is 1961, when thatexecutive order was put into
place.
And so you kind of look at thetimeline and then you look at
the 1964 Civil Rights Act, whichis Title VII, and then you look
at 1965, which is Title VII,and then you look at 1965,
president Lyndon B Johnsonexpanded the affirmative action.
So the difference is those areactual executive orders that
were put in place.
(17:45):
So the EEOC actually wascreated during that time, during
President Kennedy's presidency.
So that was back in the 1960s.
So diversity, equity, inclusion, is essentially kind of it's
like a child of affirmativeaction, but it's not necessarily
.
There aren't the same man, samemandates put in place for that,
(18:19):
so, but what it's designed to dois to help organizations think
about OK, how are we making surethat we're creating that
equitable, inclusive, diverseclimate so our people can thrive
and so that our organizationsthrive?
And so it's not necessarily.
There aren't any laws in placesaying that an organization has
to have DEI policies in place.
But I want to emphasize thisthere are also no laws, there
are no laws currently sayingthat diversity, equity and
(18:40):
inclusion is illegal, eventhough there are certain
executive orders that have beenput I know I'm trying not to
make it too complicatedbasically, organizations, as
long as they are adhering to thelaws that are in place, that
are currently in place, thathave been in place, that have
been in place, then what theyare doing is legal.
(19:00):
And I'll also advise this Ifyou have any doubt about whether
or not a DEI policy orinitiative you have in place is
legal or not or is something youcan do, I would advise talking
to an employment lawyer, generalcounsel, somebody in your.
HR team who really has anunderstanding of loss, but it
does get a little confusing, butthere are certain mandates in
(19:22):
place that do protectorganizations and protect people
.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
Yeah.
So I mean I want to ask youthis Okay, do you think
affirmative action is under theradar, like it's going away is
under the radar?
Speaker 2 (19:38):
like it's going away.
You know what?
I'll tell you this because Iworked in higher education and
when I saw the Supreme Courtoverturn the affirmative action
as it relates to admissions forcollege students, I did have
some concerns.
I said, okay, so they'restarting with colleges and
universities.
And usually what happens whenyou have those kind of things
(20:00):
happen?
What ends up happening is itdoes go into other sectors.
So it's like okay, we startwith colleges and universities,
then we'll go to government,then we go to nonprofits and
it's harder to controlcorporations because they're
private entities.
There is a possibility, but Iwill also say because of the
checks and balances we have inplace or that should be in place
(20:23):
within our society.
We may not get to that point,but it's kind of hard to tell,
because there are a lot ofthings right now where federal
judges are blocking it left andright, where it's like, nope,
nope, this is still legal.
You can't do that and so makingsure that people aren't
overreaching, because we do havethree branches of government
for a reason.
So it's such a tough question.
(20:45):
It's hard to say right now ifyou would have asked me this
eight years ago.
Ten years ago, I said, no, it'shere to stay.
You know, this is our country.
We're built on diversity andpeople.
You, you know from all over.
We're a melting pot, but nowit's a possibility.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
But we don't know for sure yet.
But again, there are certainmandates that are very much
still in place, and so we justhave to make sure that we are
aware of what's happening.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
Yeah, yeah, let's get a little bit back.
Step back a little bit.
Dei there's also a lot ofconversations out there about
really who benefits most fromDEI initiatives and believe it
or not, as a lot of this stuffwas coming out and information
(21:37):
and changes about DEI, again,there's a lot of people that
share more information about itand there's facts on the website
about it, if you want to doyour research, but I want to ask
you you're the expert right whobenefits or who have benefited
most from DEI initiatives?
Speaker 2 (22:01):
Yeah.
So it's kind of similar toaffirmative action and I will
say there are certain gendersand ethnicities that may have
benefited a little bit more thanothers, but I want to say this
this is how I'm going to answerthis question, because it is
when done correctly, there isnobody on the planet who would
not benefit from DEI.
When done correctly, there isnobody on the planet.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
who would not benefit from DEI?
Speaker 2 (22:19):
That includes cisgender white men, christian
white men, you know, whatever itwhoever?
it may be, when done correctly,everybody benefits from it.
It's almost like universaldesign.
Are you familiar with universaldesign?
I can explain it real quick.
So I do a lot of work when itcomes to Americans with
Disabilities Act, so ADA, and sowe have this thing we do in the
(22:44):
workplace called universaldesign.
And so it's like you design itwith accessibility, inclusivity
in mind in the beginning, andeverybody will benefit from it.
So you may not even haveemployees who need
accommodations because it'salready designed that way, and
so it's a similar principle withDEI.
When you think about it, whenit's done correctly, and you're
really thinking about how can weensure that everyone is
(23:04):
benefiting from this?
There's nobody who wouldn'tbenefit from it.
So that's how I look at it, andI do think part of the reason
where we've seen so muchpushback is because you do have
certain folks in certainorganizations that may have
focused on one aspect of DEIwithout thinking about it
holistically, and so I do thinkthat's part of the reason we're
(23:25):
experiencing the pushback weexperience.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
Wow, I love that take on it, and I don't think I've
heard anybody say it the way yousaid it.
Right, and I think that we allhave to think about it in a way
of you know, if we are moreinclusive or we're more diverse,
it's going to help us to getdifferent perspectives,
(23:52):
especially as, in thinking aboutit from a business standpoint,
it's definitely going to help usto reach more right, reach more
people and, especially if we'reselling a product or service,
we're providing that.
I think that DEI initiativesare really important.
Now let me ask you this,because you know, I think that
(24:15):
too, I've been hearing a lot oforganizations are starting to
change the name, and these arepublic, I mean, these are
private corporations, but youknow, we've all been hearing
about the corporateorganizations.
That's pushing back Right, likewe're not doing anything at all
(24:36):
right, and I think there's somecurrent protests going on.
I won't say any names, butagain, I think that, as it
relates to really organizationschanging the name, what are your
thoughts about that?
Speaker 2 (24:56):
Yeah, I get it.
I'll say this Initially, when Ilearned of different
organizations changing the name,I was like, ah, they caved.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
I'm being 100% straight up honest.
I was like, no, don't caveunder pressure, they still have
the initiative, but they're justchanging the name.
Right, we're just calling itequity or inclusivity.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
But I will say my perspective on it has changed.
Here's why Because initially Iwas like, okay, don't change the
name, keep it.
But now it's more of okay, ifwe know that this is going to be
polarizing for some people andit's going to create hostility
in the workplace or hostilitytowards your customer base, or
(25:41):
whatever it may be.
If you happen to rebrand andrethink this is what needs to be
done, then so be it.
I'm absolutely in support ofthat now, especially because of
the witch hunt that's happening.
We know that there are actualorganizations.
There are websites now that arelooking like who's doing DEI
work, right, it's getting tothat point.
So I will say this I feel likethe majority of organizations
(26:08):
that have either rebranded orthe ones that look like they may
have stepped back, a lot ofthem are actually still doing
the work and they're just likeyou said.
They repackaged it, renamed itand they're just thinking
through it like, ok, how can wecontinue to do this in a way
that's legal?
How can we do this withoutcausing any tension?
(26:28):
But it's tricky because I look,I can, I can sit here, you know
, cut me off when you need to,because if you look at certain
organizations that decided topull back now, they're
struggling right, and where some, they may not be struggling
while others are.
And I think it's important fororganizations to think about
(26:49):
okay, who's your target market?
Are you going to isolate thepeople who support you most if
you do decide to put back, pullback or vice versa, right?
So, thinking about it from abusiness standpoint, I always
feel like it's always going tobe good for business.
If done correctly, it will begood for business.
And we see, like in somesituations when you do pull back
(27:09):
, essentially what you'retelling your customers or what
you're telling your employees ishey, we don't value you or we
don't value your experience, andyou never want to do that.
So you do have to be veryintentional with how you go
about implementing things orchoosing to scale back on things
, because people are watching.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
Yeah, definitely, people are watching and I think
that there are a lot of I'm justgoing to say it churches out
there that are using theirplatform to, I want to say,
persuade their thoughts intotheir congregation about the
(27:50):
situation.
But if anything I want peopleto realize is do your own
research.
Don't do it just becauseeverybody else is doing it.
Do it for your research.
It was another podcast that Iwas listening to.
I think it's called the HRUnlocked Podcast and they were
(28:11):
talking about you know, hey, ifyou're trying to protest, hey,
if you're going, if you'retrying to protest, remember the
individuals that are a minority,that have products on the shelf
.
If you're going to pull back,remember that that business
they're depending on yoursupport.
(28:31):
They're depending on yoursupport.
Where they may not have thatthe product is tailored for you
and I like let's just, let'sjust be honest, right and so, if
you're going to pull back, umand again, ensure that you have
done your research and if youwant to stand for something,
(28:52):
stand for it, right, but but doit knowing that you've done your
part with educating yourselfand and and even realizing the
impact that it's going to make.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
Yeah, yeah, and that you know.
That's a fair point and I'm I'mreally glad you brought that up
because we do have to thinkabout are there certain
individuals, certainorganizations that will, that
will be on the receiving end ofthat, that boycott?
Right?
And, like you said, it does goback to really understanding
research, understanding theimpact your decision has.
(29:25):
Can you buy directly from thatparticular seller, you know, and
so it's.
It's very complicated andmultifaceted, yeah, but no, I, I
.
What I really appreciate yousaying is that, like we have to
take the opportunity to reallylearn what's really going on.
How can we navigate thisparticular climate right now?
Speaker 1 (29:44):
Yeah, yeah.
So let's talk about this.
I think people are afraid, Ithink people are scared.
People are not.
They're not sure what's goingto happen a year from now, or
(30:07):
even, let alone, six months fromnow.
As it relates to the impact ofthe pushback in DEI initiatives,
the Title VII of the CivilRights Act is still here and I
think, as it relates to in theworkplace, again people are not
thinking like, hey, there,there's still laws in place to
help protect certain individuals, certain types of people
(30:28):
related to age, related todiscrimination and all those
things that that Civil RightsAct talks about, and all those
things that that Civil RightsAct talks about.
So we know it's still in place.
We're seeing, but we're seeingdebates about its protections in
the workplace, and so can youreally explain how this law
protects employees today andwhat are some limitations?
Speaker 2 (30:52):
So protections are still in place and so Title VII
is specifically around the CivilRights Act of 1964, right that
protects people fromdiscrimination based on race,
based on creed, ethnicity andsome other different identities
right.
That's why I said I think it'sreally important for HR
practitioners to make sure thatif we let's say we don't have
(31:14):
in-house general counsel, or youknow we don't have in-house
general counsel, or you know wedon't have a lawyer that we're
working with, to stay asinformed as possible.
Because, right now, what we'reseeing is some fear mongering
happening about oh, you can't dothis, you can't do that, right,
when actually there are stillvery much laws and protections
in place.
So there's so many differentways to stay informed.
Now you want to make sure yougo to a credible source, right,
(31:37):
you want to make sure you talkabout the misinformation, but
think about you know, like thoseemployment law firms or
employment lawyers or differentyou know organizations that
specialize in HR work and thosekind of organizations, and how
you can stay informed and stayin different communities Like I
(31:59):
know, I'm a part of, likedifferent LinkedIn HR groups and
I'm sure you are too and abunch of us are.
But really think about how youcan stay informed as possible
because, as you said, right nowthose protections are very much
still in place and it would takeCongress to actually overturn
some of this, not just executiveorders.
So but yeah, yeah it, thoseprotections are still there.
(32:24):
I'll say that Currently, inthis moment, they are still
there.
Speaker 1 (32:30):
Yeah yeah.
So you got any tips foremployees navigating this
challenging landscape.
I know that I've personallyseen some challenges and have
heard different stories again onyou know from different HR
groups.
You know people are very vocalabout it.
How can employees navigate theevolving DEI landscape,
(32:55):
especially when the politicaldiscourse around it feels
polarized?
Speaker 2 (33:01):
I would say one of the things that has helped
several professionals I know,and included myself, is making
sure that you have a communityright now, and by that that can
look a lot of different ways,especially for us in HR.
You know we kind of we neededmore.
(33:22):
Ok, let's gather, let's talkthrough this, because sometimes
we can get so passionate about acertain certain something
that's happening or somethingwe've seen happen or something
that we've heard, and sometimeswe have to step back and take
the passion out of it just alittle bit and maybe talk to
another professional like, okay,this is what was just done, how
can we address this?
And having that collective,that collective, you know
(33:46):
community can really help, andespecially like same thing for
employees you know thinkingabout.
Are there people in theworkforce or in the workplace
who you feel like you couldreally talk to about some of the
things that are happening?
Because it is a lot.
Every time you read somethingor turn on the news, it can feel
(34:06):
incredibly overwhelming andwhat I don't want people to do
is bury their heads in the sand,because that's what ends up
happening a lot of times, right,people feel like, oh, it's too
much.
Every time I turn on the newsit's some new law.
Even as HR professionals, wewant to bury our heads in the
sand and be like.
I cannot take another changeLike.
I can't try to keep up with allthe legal side of it, but I
(34:28):
would say to stay informed butalso, you know, protect your
well-being and everything.
Don't feel like you have toconsume information constantly,
but stay informed and thinkabout what your community is
going to look like, so that youdo have that camaraderie and
you're not you don't feel soalone in all the changes that
are happening.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
You know, what about those employees who work in
organizations and let's just saythey don't feel supported
because of these changes?
They're hearing crazy commentsand statements and just really
disheartening things.
That is really affecting theirmorale, it's affecting their
(35:10):
experience.
How can they specifically, orwhat are some things they can do
, to get some support but alsostill have a job?
Speaker 2 (35:21):
Yeah, and that's always tough being in an
organization where you feel likelike you're the only one who's
kind of experiencing somethingor going through like a tough
time.
When I talk about community, Ido want to emphasize that
community does not have to beinternal.
About community I do want toemphasize that community does
not have to be internal.
So, if you need to seek maybeokay, I'll say this so, like a
(35:42):
lot of times in organizationsyou may have, like employee
resource groups, affinitynetworks and things like that,
but maybe your organizationdoesn't have that, that does not
mean that you cannot have thatsame support outside of your
organization.
So if you need to build thatcommunity outside of your
organization, then do so Because, like I said, you know I'm a
part of different HR groups andDEI groups and like half of
(36:06):
these people I've never met, youknow.
But it's just nice being able totalk about, oh, you're
experiencing this too, yeah, metoo, you know.
And so just know that there arepeople out there who may have
shared lived experiences.
And I think the biggest thingright now is we don't want
people to feel isolation.
We don't want them to feel likethey're alone in anything that
(36:27):
they're experiencing Right now.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
What my heart is telling me to share is I think
right now is a time thatorganizations we need to love on
our employees.
I think this is the time weneed to not just do it because
every other organization isdoing it, to come and think,
(37:02):
like, if we have to rename ourDEI programs and what it is and
what it's not, and I think thatthis is the time to say you know
what we value every employeethat is working in our
organization, because if it'snot for the employees that come
in every day, whether that's inthe office or remote, that's a
hot topic too.
I think that, again, this isthe moment to do it.
(37:26):
This is the moment to havetransparent conversations and
even to your employees andsaying hey, this is what we're
going to do to ensure you stillfeel valued.
So, if you're listening today,if you're listening to this
episode, whether you're asupervisor, a team lead, a
(37:47):
manager, director, anddefinitely if you're in the
C-suite, have conversations withyour legal team.
Have conversations with yourlegal team, have conversations
(38:10):
with the organization, the keystakeholders, about what are we
going to do to embrace all ofour employees and letting them
know that this is a place youwant to work at.
Just wanted to take that moment.
I felt it in my heart to sharethat for someone that's
listening today.
Whether you're in the US oracross the world, embrace your
employees and let them know thatyou value them.
Yeah, one last not this is notthe last question, but something
(38:33):
that I thought about that wedidn't really talk about, and I
think it's important to the EOC.
You know, I think for a lot ofpeople, people think that the
EOC is going to be dismantled aswell.
Speaker 2 (38:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:49):
What are your thoughts on this?
Because I think a lot of peopleI mean EOC, they love
discrimination claims, they lovethose retaliation claims, but
for a lot of people they thinklike I can't go to the EOC
anymore.
And mind you, we're not.
(39:10):
I'm not saying you need to goto the EOC.
What I'm saying is they arethere as a resource and as we
talk about community right, thatthat could be a community of
resource, right.
What's going on with the EEOCright now?
Speaker 2 (39:28):
Just based on what I know.
I actually know someone whoworks at the EEOC and we just
had a conversation about it.
So for those of you who've beenkeeping up and I'm sure most of
us have been keeping up, mostfolks listening you know that
there's a lot of layoffs andterminations happening in terms
of like government employees andvery specific sectors and, from
(39:48):
what I know, there werediscussions about downsizing the
EEOC.
Now, the EEOC is not the onlyorganization or government
agency that's looking atpotential downsizing.
We've seen it happen withothers.
But I do want to stresssomething that you said A lot of
times we think theseorganizations are no longer
(40:09):
there.
The EEOC is still very muchthere.
It is there and it's been theresince the 1960s.
Now, whether or not there willbe some potential cuts and
downsizes there, potentially,but I think it's important for
people to know that even withdownsizing, there are still
(40:29):
organizations in place.
It's just a matter of you maynot have as many employees there
anymore, so yeah, that'sanother one.
It's kind of like thataffirmative action question you
had.
It's really hard to say rightnow, but while it's still here,
we still have these protectionsand mandates.
So that's how we have to thinkabout it.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
Yeah, and let me ask you this, just just just in case
for that individual that islistening they're like what is
the EEOC?
I don't know what that is.
Tell us what that is.
What is it?
And you know, what do mostpeople go to them for?
Speaker 2 (41:06):
Yeah, so the EEOC stands for Equal Employment
Opportunity Commission, and sothat was started in the 1960s as
well, under President Kennedy'spresidency.
Started in the 1960s as wellunder President Kennedy's
presidency, and going back tothat first executive order that
I talked about when I talkedabout affirmative action, and so
that was put in placespecifically for individuals,
(41:26):
for workers who haddiscrimination claims that they
wanted to take before.
Well, they couldn't do it intheir workplaces, so they had to
take it before the commission,right?
This particular body that helpsdetermine whether or not
something is considereddiscriminatory or not.
And so that's their job, right?
(41:46):
Because they're supposed to bethis outside entity that's
subjective, whereas we know likean organization is going to do
everything it can to protectitself.
So when an employee comesforward, you know everybody's
not going to be objectiveinternally, so you have to have
this outside agency that cankind of help determine whether
or not something is indeeddiscriminatory.
So that's what it is, and it'sput in place for a reason
(42:09):
because we know like it's hardto be objective when you're
internal to an organizationoftentimes.
But you know you have thoseprotections in place.
It's like you know what I feellike this could be potential
disability discrimination orracial discrimination, gender
discrimination, whatever it maybe and so you are able to go to
that outside entity to take yourcase to them and they can kind
(42:32):
of determine whether or not itwas discrimination.
Speaker 1 (42:35):
Yeah, yeah.
One thing I want to encouragemy listeners is I want you to
and I think I'm a little biasedbecause I do work in HR but I
want you to, like, if you aredealing with certain situations
in your workplace and you'rehaving challenging moments, like
yeah, you can go to EOC, butensure that you give your
(42:59):
employee an opportunity toinvestigate what's going on.
You may not know the immediateactions they're taking to
address a certain situation, butgo to your HR representatives,
ensure that you are submittingthose claims, submitting those
(43:22):
disagreements, submitting andreally making sure that someone
is aware.
I think that a lot of employeesthink that HR is not their
friend, and we have an episodeon that.
It's not their friend and wehave an episode on that.
But I think that everyorganization is a little
(43:43):
different.
Yes, and if you've worked in theorganization in the past where
HR was definitely not yourfriend or not friendly, then
then make sure you give those HRreps, those H, those HR leaders
, an opportunity to address yourconcern, especially when we're
talking about discrimination.
But hey, the EOC is alwaysthere.
(44:05):
But it's my job to ensure thatyour voice is being heard and
that we try to mitigate whateverrisk there is in the
organization.
At the end of the day, I tellpeople all the time you are the
organization and if you don'trealize that, that you are a
part of the organization,sometimes people you know they
(44:28):
just get upset about it.
Ensure that you're talking withsomebody in your organization,
ensuring that you are followingthat chain of command to ensure
that your voice is being heard.
Speaker 2 (44:45):
Yeah, all right.
Last question oh, go ahead, andI was.
I was going to say a follow uptoday because I'm glad you said
that, because what I was not, Iwant to make sure I wasn't
saying like, oh, you know, wecan't be objective internally.
We absolutely can.
It's just there are going to becertain situations where you
know you have to follow theprocess.
Like you said, you follow thedue process, you go up the chain
(45:05):
in the organization and thensometimes it has to go beyond
just that.
So, but I'm glad you touched onthat and kind of emphasize no,
hr is still very much there fora reason.
Like you, you still want tofollow the process because, like
you said, in one organizationHR will have you back like oh
okay, all right, we know thishas come up, this person has
been recorded 50,000 times, weknow the supervisor by name, we
(45:26):
know exactly so and you know inin.
In that case, a lot of times HRwill step in and say okay, we
need to do executive coachingfor that person or whatever it
may be.
So you absolutely do want to,you know, go through the
internal change.
Speaker 1 (45:39):
So thank you for that yeah, yeah, no, no, no,
absolutely.
You know, I think again,because I'm an HR professional,
I have to say that right.
Yeah, because I think there'smoments where people, you know
they just don't give theiremployees an opportunity because
they're corporate, or or youknow they, you know executive
leaders, are making all themoney and they think that
(45:59):
they're just you know that theydon't have a voice.
You do have a voice, absolutelyAll right.
So our last question for today,just any last tips or insights
how can we ensure that theconversations about DEI remain
constructive, and not just inthe workplace, but within our
(46:20):
society as well?
Speaker 2 (46:22):
Oh, last thoughts.
This is good because I alwayshave like a bunch of thoughts,
but I'm like, ok, let's bring itall together.
I'm going to do a few, ifthat's OK.
I would say.
The first one is to rememberthat people people are at the
heart of an organization andthey always will be, Even as we
(46:42):
become more technologicallyadvanced and all that, and we
got all the AI and all thedifferent things.
I stand on this and I havealways stood on this, and a lot
of HR practitioners will tellyou the same you cannot function
without a healthy workplaceculture, and so we have to
remember that as we think aboutyou know all the different
attacks on certain aspects ofwhat we do, you know, as it
(47:04):
relates to DEI we have to sitback and ask ourselves but if we
don't center our people, if wedon't center inclusivity, what
impact will this have on ourworkplace culture?
What impact will this have onour people, their morale?
What impact will this have onour workplace culture?
What impact will this have onour people, their morale?
What impact will this have onour customers or whoever's
buying our products or whateverfield we may be in?
Right, and so I want us toalways have this people centered
(47:26):
approach in what we do andremember why we do what we do.
I would say another thing, kindof going back to something I
talked about a little bitearlier, because right now it
can feel really overwhelmingwith all the information coming
at us.
But just remember that you havepeople who are in the legal
(47:48):
profession for a reason.
You have people who are in incertain areas who can really
explain what's going on becauseyou have so much information
coming at you.
You may not always know what'sfact and what's fiction, but
just remember to make sure that,going back to that community
piece, have your core communityof folks you can consult, who
(48:09):
you can talk with, who you canactually get the real deal from.
Speaker 1 (48:12):
Like.
Speaker 2 (48:12):
OK, what's really going on, what's really what's
up with this mandate or whateverit may be, so that way you're
always informed as possible.
So yeah, I have so manydifferent things because it's
such an interesting time,because there's so much
happening, but I think that'sthose are my two biggest
(48:34):
takeaways for this particularconversation.
Now, if I come back, it may bedifferent, because I don't know
what it's going to look like sixmonths, a year from now.
I might be advising somethingtotally different, but right now
I think I think that's going tobe key.
Speaker 1 (48:49):
Yeah, I love what you say.
You have to build community.
Speaker 2 (48:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (48:54):
I think we are born for community.
We need people in our corners.
We need people who can help uswhen we are confused, when we're
not sure what to believe Right.
But not only that.
I think we also have to look tothe Lord, look unto Him, for
(49:16):
help and guidance on how wehandle certain situations, even
though what we see is not whatwe like right.
But thank you so much, dr MJ.
Before we close, I always liketo leave with an encouraging
note.
As we talk about and think aboutbalance, inclusion and
(49:36):
navigating today's challenges, Iwant to share this verse
Colossians 3, 23 through 24.
Whatever you do, work at itwith all your heart as working
for the Lord, not for humanmasters, since you know that you
will receive an inheritancefrom the Lord as a reward.
It is the Lord Christ you areserving.
(49:59):
Again, colossians 3, verse 23and 24.
This reminds us that, no matterthe external pressures or
debates we face, the work we dofor inclusion, justice and
equity matters deeply and is apart of a bigger picture and
purpose.
Dr MJ, thank you so much forjoining us today and sharing
(50:20):
such invaluable insights in thistime when DEI is not only
reshaping the workplace but alsobecoming a political
battleground.
Your perspective is incrediblytimely.
Again, we really appreciate youand your expertise and just
your transparency and honestabout our conversation that we
(50:43):
had today.
Tell us, dr MJ, how can peoplefind you and learn more about
the work that you do each andevery day?
Speaker 2 (50:51):
Yeah, I'll say so.
I do have a website, dr MJMcConner dot com, but I'm
actually most active on LinkedIn, so LinkedIn is my jam.
I do have Instagram andFacebook and everything and it's
all the same.
Handle Dr MJ McConner.
But if you really want toengage and you really want to
see like different posts andeverything because I try to be,
(51:13):
I try to post up to date thingsand what's happening and how it
relates to our field so I woulddefinitely say, connect with me
on LinkedIn.
I love LinkedIn.
Speaker 1 (51:21):
Yeah Well, thank you again.
If you've enjoyed today'sepisode, be sure to subscribe to
the Transparent Nature podcast,share it with a friend and
leave us a review.
We'd love it.
As DEI continues to shape theway we work and interact, your
support helps us to continuebringing you transparent and
(51:42):
practical HR insights tonavigate these challenging times
.
It's your host, prince Tate,and keep navigating your career
with clarity and confidence,even as we tackle the tough
conversations happening intoday's workforce.
Thank you, and we'll see you onthe next episode.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.