October 21, 2024 • 29 mins
In this episode, Dave Jerman from PowerOn Energy Solutions joins us to discuss key strategies for successful fleet electrification. Learn the importance of early planning, pilot projects, and tailored solutions to avoid infrastructure challenges. Discover insights from a last-mile delivery case study, financial benefits through grants and credits, and the game-changing 'charging as a service' model to future-proof your fleet while controlling costs. Tune in now.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 2 (00:00):
There we go.
That's better.
All right, we're good.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Yeah, one, two, three , hello, and welcome to another
episode of the TransportationExchange podcast presented by
Rush Truck Center Canada.
I'm your host, jason Cuddy, andon today's episode we welcome
Dave German, account executivefrom PowerOn.
Dave, welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Well, jason, thanks very much for inviting me.
I'm very excited to have aconversation here today about
electrification and hopefully,as we have a conversation, we
can her discussion.
We can provide some valuableinsights to your listeners as
they're considering or startingto digest the electrification
within their fleet.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Yeah, I agree, I think you know the truck on our
end has always been the easiestpart of the conversation.
I think it's the easiest partin the whole pathway to
electrification.
So having yourself on and kindof walking us through what
customers need to do, kind ofonsite early, getting to the
site, is a key thing.
I guess the one thing is fromthat point, add electrification
to an existing facility.
What are some things peopleneed to know and understand?
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Yeah, that's a great question or a great place to
start.
What I've learned is that everyfleet and facility is unique.
So I think it's very importantto have a conversation with
customers to understand wherethey're at in the process, how
many facilities that they haveand even, like I said, with
larger companies, especially ifthey're nationwide, there's a
lot of considerations to digest.
So I think the first place tostart is to have a conversation,
(01:17):
understand their operations,understand their goals,
understand how many vehiclesthey're planning to have, where
they're at in the process.
And a great place to startwould be something with a pilot
project, which I'm sure we'regoing to discuss, because pilot
is.
I'm a big proponent of that.
I think it's learn by doing andstart small and some very
valuable lessons can be done andgain some confidence.
But then, once you have thatconversation, you also would
(01:41):
want to assess the facility.
So if it's a single site hadone last week was out of the
customer's facility, went intotheir electrical room looking at
the equipment that they haveand this particular facility had
plenty of capacity, so itwasn't an issue.
They had a pilot project inmind, so there was no concerns
there to proceed.
But, as you mentioned, when itgets to commercial vehicles,
especially the bigger medium andheavy duty vehicles.
They can consume.
(02:02):
The batteries are quite largerthan you would see on, say, a
passenger car.
When you're looking at yourhome, you have a 200-amp panel.
You call an electrician, youorder your EV and your
electrician comes to your house.
You'll be up and running within24 hours.
Well, some of those assumptionsare made on the commercial side,
unfortunately, and it's best tohave.
Like you said, I think peoplewere worried, especially with
COVID and the supply chainissues we've had over the years.
(02:24):
People are maybe more focusedon the vehicles, but the
infrastructure can take just aslong, if not longer.
So I think those considerationshave to be done hand in hand.
And we had one particularcustomer who was doing a pilot
project, but it was a classeight fleet.
So even with a few vehicles,they unfortunately ran into some
nasty surprises where theydidn't have sufficient power
capacity and they were able toimplement the first couple of
(02:45):
vehicles but their plans werederailed because they needed
some site and utility upgradesthat were required.
So I think it's very importantto have those conversations.
The vehicle and theinfrastructure has to be done at
least hand-in-hand and thenplanned accordingly.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Yeah, it makes sense and I've seen that with some
other customers, othertestimonials as people have gone
through it.
And it's one thing kind ofthinking, okay, the
infrastructure is on site, likeyou're getting chargers on site,
getting all that in, but Ithink the bigger struggle for
some locations trucking has beenaround so long.
A lot of the buildings are inolder parts of towns.
Some of the maybe newerfacilities maybe the
(03:21):
municipalities have planned forit know it's the capacity at
site can really be the triggerfor most of it.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Yeah, for sure.
I think the capacity is key andsome facilities, if they're
more industrial-based, may havesome of that extra capacity.
We were at one.
It was a big warehouse facilityso they had a lot of power
coming into the building so itwasn't a concern coming into the
building, so it wasn't aconcern.
But there are when you get intothe trucking side of things.
(03:49):
Historically, transportationcompanies don't consume a lot of
power if they're not intomanufacturing or things of that
nature.
So, definitely, looking at theavailable capacity, start with
the low-hanging fruit, see whatcapacity you have available.
So that's why product projects,see what you have available
today and then have those.
That's why I think it'simportant to have conversations
with companies like Power andlike us.
We can get involved in theground floor, do things like
(04:11):
roadmap studies and feasibilityanalysis so we can have those
short-term and longer-term typeof conversations so that
companies can plan not only frommaking the electrification
process successful, but alsofrom a budgeting and planning
point of view.
And with the technology changingso much, but also from a
budgeting and planning point ofview, and with the technology
changing so much, definitelywant to have some flexibility
and there's some future proofingand also challenge some
(04:31):
assumptions and one commonassumption is that you need a
one-to-one ratio of chargers toelectrification.
But that's not necessarily thecase.
That's why I think it's havingthose operational understanding
of where the trucks are, howmany, or the vehicles are where
they are at a given time, whatthe dwell times are, how much
charging time is needed.
(04:51):
We work with one fleet, forexample, where they started with
the assumption it wasone-to-one and then, after
working with them and doing apilot project and understanding
their operations, we were ableto have a larger DC charger to
three dispensers and then thosethree dispensers to four
vehicles.
So by challenging thatone-to-one ratio, you can save a
lot of money with respect toinfrastructure and really
(05:13):
optimize and right-size thatinfrastructure, because the
amount of money and investmentthat's done here you really want
to make sure that you'reoptimizing those types of
investments and making thoseconsiderations moving forward.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
Well, it makes sense, right, Because of the time and
the cost, if anything you cantake out of it from a cost or
delay point of view, you knowthe better.
And I know, when we do thetrucks, you know we want to do
an application survey.
You know, kind of get a demo orpilot.
We'll get into that in a second.
But you know, and the wholepoint of that really is to kind
of maximize, you know, therouting of the vehicle,
potentially, um, you know, soyou are.
(05:44):
Maybe you don't need as much,you know power to do what you
need to do with these vehiclesthat you thought you would with
a normal diesel vehicle.
Um, you know.
So routing may change, um, butalso just understanding the
actual draw and how much energyactually going through in your
route, right, because thevehicles have a estimated range.
But you know that's.
You know very generic.
So once you get into the trueapplication you can really
understand how much you'reactually going to use.
And then you know very generic.
(06:04):
So once you get into the trueapplication, you can really
understand how much you'reactually going to use.
And then you know, so that's onthe truck side.
But then I think to your pointgoing hand in hand with someone
like yourself and your companyis understanding okay.
So we've got an idea of whatthe truck does.
Now how do we get the power weneed on site?
And then just kind ofpartnering up and challenging
kind of the status quo andreally putting together kind of
a good plan of how to startimplementing the next steps and
the time frame and costsinvolved.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
Right.
So as far as you know, planningfor growth, I think in Canada
the… Utilities it's verydifferent depending on what
province you're in.
For example, in places like BCand Quebec they have BC Hydro
and Hydro Quebec, which is veryvertically integrated Right, so
you have that one utility thatyou need to engage with
primarily.
Here in Ontario it's a verydifferent story.
We have 60 local distributioncompanies so it can be quite
(06:48):
daunting.
It depends where you are indifferent cities.
You have Toronto Hydro up thisway in Durham region.
You have AlexaCon in Oshawa asan example, oshawa Power.
So you can say, wow, I have tonot just talk to one utility, I
have to maybe talk to like ahandful here or even more.
So that's where something likePowerOn, being a wholly owned
subsidiary of Ontario PowerGeneration, we have those
(07:08):
relationships, thoseconversations.
We can definitely help engagewith those conversations with
the utility early.
And then I think it's importantto have a plan and design for
future proofing where possible,so you can implement some
charges, for example, thatthey're expandable, so they're
upgradable.
So maybe you start with 100kilowatts but you can have it
(07:29):
upgraded to 200 kilowatts usingthe same cabinet and by
implementing some hardware youcan have that future expansion
done if you invest that sort ofmoney a little bit more wisely
in the early days and with thatfuture-proofing in mind.
So sometimes you may say, okay,we see your plan, you do have
short-term, mid-term andlong-year plans, but it also has
(07:49):
to be adoptable.
Because it is changing so fast.
Things like inductive chargingis being out there.
How cost-effective is thatgoing to be?
Is that going to be more viablefor en route charges, for
example?
So we're not quite there yet.
But even in the near-term plans,work with the vehicles where
they are today and with thetechnology where it is today.
But also, hey, maybe if we spendan extra 10% to 15% today, we
(08:11):
can upgrade that transformer sothat when you do deploy those
extra vehicles in a few yearsyou don't have to start from
scratch or make some more costlyinvestments.
So sort of, invest your moneywisely and it's that
optimization key I think isundervalued and making sure that
you're right-sizing thatinfrastructure and investing
your money smartly and with thatfuture proof considerations,
(08:31):
without having to do somethingfast and cheap.
And then companies will come tous oh geez, I rushed to do
something and I spent all thismoney and now it's not meeting
my operations.
They've got to literally tearit all out and start from
scratch.
So that's why you want to haveit done right the first time and
I think that's why having thoselong-term plans and goals and
looking at the big picture, butalso making your plan flexible
(08:52):
so you can either accelerate ifthings are going well or you can
defer things.
Maybe the economy is changing,budgets change, business is
going good, business has falledoff a little bit, so you have to
have that adaptability andflexibility built into your
plans as you move forward.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
That's a good point because I mean, the biggest
component on this is thetechnology is changing so quick,
right on your side, the charterside, on the truck side, so
knowing that you can kind ofplan ahead with you know within
reason but that's a good pointis to think ahead right, not
just the vehicle today but thevehicles may be coming in the
future, right, and you know, areyou looking to scale it?
what is your operation doing,and you know.
(09:27):
But but partnering with with,with the right people to have
those conversations, I think, isa key piece, so that you said
you don't just go all in on onething and then you're left in
the dark four years later when atechnology changes or something
else changes, and you didn'tthink of it too far ahead, right
?
So with what's involved and thetime frame involved, you kind
of want to future-proof yourself.
It's a good wording for it.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
No for sure, it's never going to be perfect, but
you want to have thatskillability in mind.
I agree with you wholeheartedlyon that.
That's having that where I amtoday, starting small with the
pilot, with the low-lying fruit.
See what available capacity youhave and defer those larger
investments so that you can seewhat's available tomorrow and
see how not only the vehicleschange but the infrastructure is
(10:10):
changing.
Like I said, with inductivecharging and smart charging and
energy management and looking ata holistic view so that you can
make sure that your total costof ownership is optimized,
because people moving aroundhave some great conversations
with people who are electrifying, having some very good
experiences where they're saying, yeah, my TCO is down, I know
this is the right way to go, andthen they're finding ways to
(10:31):
even optimize it a little bitfurther.
Where some other maybe,depending on what type of
business they're in, maybe thevehicles aren't quite the right
fit and electrification isn'tgoing to be the right solution
for everybody.
It's not going to be.
I don't believe any fleet'sgoing to be 100% electrified,
but it's going to be a portionof your business.
How big of a portion depends onyour operations.
Maybe it makes sense that youcan get like 90% of the way
(10:53):
they're electric vehicles.
Maybe you're going to be 20%electric, and then hydrogen is a
big topic of conversation andthings of that and maybe keep
those ICE vehicles as long asyou can for things like long
haul and I think that's morechallenging.
So let's kick that rock downthe road but let's not wait,
because I think if customerswait too long and kick that road
down too far down the road,then they could be left when
(11:16):
everybody goes to pick up thatrock at the same time and there
could be challenges there andthen they left.
Oh my, I should have maybe donethat.
That's why that pilot projectwe talked about, I think is is
so key to walk before you runand you can have some lessons
learned and gain some confidenceand that you're going down the
right path and you're making theright choices along the way
good point maybe.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
Yeah, let me dive into a little the pilot project,
because I think, like I know,we talk on our end about, you
know, the application survey.
That's kind of pre-vehicleright.
That's kind of looking at whatyou're trying to do with the
vehicle and kind of make some,you know some assessments and
some best guesses as far as theapplication.
But I think the pilot is kindof where you know it's real
world.
You start to get some real data.
Maybe walk us through kind ofwhat you've seen from the pilot
(11:52):
projects as far as real-worldtestimonials, once you're trying
this product for the first time.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Yeah, I think that's.
I guess we're going to repeatourselves with pilot projects.
It sounds like a broken record,but I really want to encourage
customers to walk before theyrun.
Learn by doing because, likeyou mentioned, you can have all
the data fuel car data, forexample and you think, oh, this
is when I replaced that dieselengine and I turned electric.
(12:19):
Well, electric, especially ininner city, with the
regenerative braking, it canoutperform those expectations
and also the way the driversbehave.
And we had an example where acustomer did a pilot project, a
couple fold to gain confidence.
But they had vehicle A, vehicleB, so they bought two different
types of vehicles and the bigthing was range anxiety.
So I'm sure in the audience andlistening to say range anxiety
(12:41):
is probably one of the biggestconcerns when people are looking
to electrify.
But what they found?
They did a full 12-month studyso they could have the win or
two, because not only in hightemperatures through the summer,
but look at that again bigpicture point of view.
And what they found when theywere making that decision, what
they decided to do was theybought the vehicles with the
highest battery available inthat given vehicle.
(13:02):
So a lot of vehicles will havea smaller, medium or large size
option.
So they went for the biggestone because they were worried
about the range anxiety.
But to their, you know, notsurprise.
But what they were happy to seeis based on how this was a last
mile delivery company and basedon the range that the majority
not all of them, but themajority of the vehicles were
(13:22):
coming back to the depot withover 50% state of charge in most
cases.
So they said, wow, this isfantastic.
These vehicles are performingas advertised, the range is not
an issue.
We're able to charge them andhave a lot of capacity.
But by doing that, not only A,they decided they liked vehicle
A over B.
So they decided the model theypreferred with the different
manufacturers.
(13:42):
So that was one.
Two, they said, now that weknow that range is not the issue
, they were able to save somemoney because in the next
vehicle spec they were going todo they're going to choose the
lower-sized battery because theyhad so much extra power on most
of these vehicles.
So, a, they were to save moneyon the vehicle purchase.
That puts less strain on theinfrastructure and, more
importantly, batteries add a lotof weight to the vehicle so
(14:03):
they're able to add more loadcapacity so they're able to
deliver more packages.
So it was a win-win across theboard.
So that's why I think, don'thave assumptions.
You hear some stories and ifyou do it right and learning by
doing, you can really have somereal-world experience and gain
(14:23):
confidence.
Not only that you're going downthe right path, but you're
choosing the right vehicle, andthen you can scale that plan a
little bit more as well as yougo Makes sense and it's all
real-world data, which is nice,right, and you talked about
understanding kind of your needsand maybe not as much draw.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
You talked about understanding your needs and
maybe not as much draw.
I think one thing I knew aboutobviously coming in on the truck
side is obviously there'sgrants, depending on where you
go and provincially they'll moveand depending on the time of
year you're having aconversation, someone has money,
someone doesn't, and obviouslythere's some grants for the
infrastructure side.
The part I didn't actuallyrealize is that I guess there's
grants also for using thecharging infrastructure.
From that point of view, maybeit's kind of highlighted what
(14:56):
that is From our end.
We're not overly familiar withthat.
That's kind of after thetruck's already on place kind of
thing.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
Yeah, there's a variety of different things
available.
Obviously, there's some federalgrants, and BC and Quebec could
offer some extra money forpeople to do things.
But one of the things that doesget overlooked that's
relatively new is somethingcalled CFR credits, which is
clean fuel regulation credits,and that's exactly what it is.
That's where you can.
It's a new revenue stream forpeople who electrify, and it's
not a tax.
(15:22):
It's basically an incentive orit's a federal goal to lower
carbon intensity.
So the idea there is for fossilfuel producers companies like
Suncor, who have greenhouse gasemissions, need to offset those
emissions by buying clean fuelcredits and by electrifying
you're replacing an internalcombustion engine, an ICE
vehicle, with electrificationand you have a charging
(15:43):
infrastructure.
You qualify for those credits.
And the one thing that I thinkis important is timing is
important because we're talkingto some customers.
They've had, you know, chargersand electric vehicles for a
year, but they haven't doneanything with CFR credits.
So unfortunately, cfr creditsaren't retroactive.
It's basically you can startcounting those credits from the
day you register for the program.
So, working with somebody likePower On who can aggregate those
(16:04):
credits because the largefossil fuel producers aren't
going to buy you know credithere and a credit there.
They want to buy them in bulk.
So we were able with some ofour large anchor clients.
So we're able with some of ourlarge anchor clients we deal
with large transit authoritieslike TTC and Oakville and some
other places so we're able toaggregate those credits and help
customers basically providethose lower commission rates, if
(16:26):
you will, to monetize it tosmaller customers so they can
maximize the money in theirpocket when they do try to
monetize these CFR creditsBecause it is rather
administrative intensive, it's alittle cumbersome and it can be
overwhelming.
So, partnering with somebodylike PowerOn, we can maximize
the money in your pocket and wecan aggregate those credits to
(16:46):
make sure we maximize that.
And for example, on largevehicles just to quantify it for
the audience talking forcommercial customers, which I
imagine would be a good part ofthe listeners a large transit
bus or Class A tractor can thevalue today.
Obviously it is a market-basedsystem so it can't change, but
it can be between $15,000 toover $20,000 per vehicle per
(17:08):
year.
Oh wow.
So it's a significant amount ofmoney that can go against the
operating costs and lower thattotal cost of ownership.
So it is a new revenue streamand I would encourage customers
to.
Definitely, if you havecharging infrastructure that
you're using to give us a calland we can talk to you and we
can help you register so you canstart getting those credits and
(17:29):
monetizing that today, versusjust leaving that money on the
table.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
That's a good point and I would never have thought
that I've rented some TCOs on it.
And usually it's traditionallymore with some of the
infrastructure costs or thetruck costs.
You're taking fuel out, you'retaking some maintenance spend
out but never accounting for,let's say, that chunk of it
which all of a sudden can veryeasily tip a TCO to
electrification in favor, if allthe conditions are right, and
it kind of then goes back toyour application and those pilot
(17:54):
projects, right like doing yourhomework, to make sure you're
getting what you're getting.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
you can then start kind of fine-tuning your tco to
really do your math and get yournumbers kind of tied together
oh for sure, and that's why Ithink when you're, when you're
looking at, you knowelectrification and the vehicle
costs and obviously theincentives that are available
and one of the conversationswhen we had we have some
seminars and webinars as well,and people are concerned.
Oh, you know, I'm looking formore funding, more credits, and
(18:21):
when it comes to CFR, forexample, that's something where
the early adopters, theircredits, are that valuable today
, but as the program becomesmore successful and there's more
credits on the market right now, a credit's worth between $150
to $200 per credit, but thatcould change.
So you're really rewarding theearly adopters.
People are doing it early.
You can maximize that.
Even with some of theincentives that are out there,
(18:41):
you can't assume that they'regoing to be there today.
There could be some new onestomorrow, we don't know and the
vehicle costs could come down.
So I think that pilot project,looking at it, getting yourself
comfortable, and don't try tosolve all your problems in one
day there are going to beelectric vehicles available that
could be suitable for yourfleet, so let's focus on those,
(19:07):
and I agree that there are someapplications that are a little
bit more daunting and maybe notthe best fit for electrification
today.
So let's not focus on those.
Let's focus on the ones that wecan do.
We can do them successfully.
There are a lot of more optionscoming every day.
With respect to manufacturerslike International Navistar,
they're coming out with newoptions and range and battery
technology is changing.
(19:27):
But at the end of the day, youneed to start somewhere and then
, if you can gain someconfidence and pick the right
vehicle, go for test drives.
There's plug-and-drive eventsand things of that nature.
So get yourself behind thewheel of one to start.
It's a good place to start.
See how they feel, how muchquieter they are.
People are commenting that someof these drivers love them.
They're so much quieter, a lot,and the amount of stress that
that adds.
(19:48):
And, given there's studies outthere, they're saying that how
much more quieter just the waythey run and just the way they
run.
And it's also, I think,training your staff, because you
need buy-in from them.
You have to train them properlythe way the vehicles are
operated they have thatregenerative braking, so the way
that it's driven and what thevehicle can do in maximizing the
technology at hand, and smallthings like remembering to plug
(20:09):
it in at the end of the day.
So you don't want to have anasty surprise.
It's something that you just ohgonna.
Whose job is that to do?
I'm just.
You know who's responsible.
So just make sure you have thatclearly defined, simple,
something like that.
And even things like cablemanagement.
Like cable management, oh it's,it's just a dispenser.
I got this cord, I got a plugin, but we were talking to one
customer and they had a back-endpolicy and, lo and behold,
(20:29):
they're.
This particular vehicle theywere looking at had the charging
port on the front.
Yeah, so now you geez, now howlong does my cable need to be
and where do I need to positionthat dispenser?
So these are small things that,if you don't think them through
, that that at the end of theday you can have some, you know,
nasty surprises, or and thenthe cord doesn't go, and then do
you have to lax your backendpolicy or do you have to, you
(20:50):
know, make it change where youlocated that dispenser and how
long those cables.
Like I said, there's a lot tothink about.
Those are just some simpleexamples.
Obviously, we can get into theweeds and get a lot more
complicated, and I wouldencourage the listeners to give
companies like Power on a Callbecause this is what we do.
We're electrification expertsand we've learned by doing and
(21:13):
we've done some pilot projectsand large-scale projects and
everything in between.
So we're looking to be yourelectrification partner from the
very beginning, where we canhelp you with the planning.
We do things like feasibilitystudies and roadmaps to looking
at your infrastructure,optimizing and right-sizing that
, to having the conversationswith utilities and then just
(21:35):
making sure that you have a planand then make it flexible, make
it adaptable, but you have tostart somewhere and I think the
make it adaptable, but you haveto start somewhere, and I think
the pilot project is a greatplace to get the ball rolling.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
Yeah, I agree, and that's why I would have Yon
right, just kind of walk throughand introduce people to.
You know how do you get furtherin and just talk about the
truck, because the truck's beenan easy conversation, it's been
good no-transcript few years out, but at least they understand
(22:11):
the process and the time andsort of the investment and
little things like you knowwhere do you put the charger in
the facility, based on how youpark your vehicle, like those
are things that probably don'tcome up until it's in the ground
, going and going.
Oh, we've made a mistake, right.
But by working with someonelike yourself who's gone through
it, you can be ahead of it andsay, hey, what are you
considering this?
Have you considered this?
Because it's new for mostpeople walking into it, right.
So it's great, greatinformation.
(22:35):
And then you know, while wehave you here, you know
short-term outlooks on, you knowthe technology, or just kind of
, what do you see on the horizon?
Because it's a very fastchanging.
You know technology.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
Oh for sure, Things are changing very fast as well.
I think that's why, when you'relooking at things that
future-proofing I talked aboutas much as you can, making your
plan adaptable, flexible, makingthose maybe investments, things
like transformers, for example,those, those that to supply the
power you're going to need that.
So maybe, oh, I can, dependingon what my plan is here in the
(23:06):
next two to three, four years, Iwant to get that little bit
bigger transformer so that Idon't have to, you know, put in
a second one.
And really maximizing thatlittle bit extra investment
today will save you tomorrow.
And in speaking with that, whatmaybe people don't realize, and
having conversations with acouple of fleet customers,
because things are changing somuch, one of the things that
power on does is we can offercharging as a service.
Okay, so what is what does thatmean?
(23:26):
What does charging as a servicemean?
So it's changing.
Rather than making it a capitalintensive, we can, if we look
at a plan with a, we can enter along-term agreement with a
customer.
They have a deployment plan, asustainable strategy, and then
what we do is we translate thatit.
It's almost like a lease tone,like a monthly cost that you can
have.
So now you can change thatcapital expenditure more to a
monthly operating fee and thenthat transitions the
(23:50):
responsibility to us on makingsure that those chargers are
meeting your needs uptimeguarantees, things of that
nature so then that way you havea fixed monthly cost.
That I know customers arealways worried about their cost
per mile, so this way they canhave a fixed monthly fee and
they can go with confidence.
Let us worry about theinfrastructure.
You let us know your deploymentplan, then PowerOn will make
(24:11):
sure we design, build andoptimize that infrastructure to
keep pace with your deploymentplan.
And that transfers all the riskto a company like us.
So those are options.
We could do a traditional buildand sale Right, or we could do
something in between, or thatcharging as a service, so that
way it's not as daunting.
And then we have to adapt.
And you know the other thing inworking with something like
(24:32):
Power because you say, thingsare changing.
We're at the EV Expo and you'reseeing so many new players
enter the market and it becomesoverwhelming.
Players enter the market and itbecomes overwhelming.
And companies like Power Run,backed by Ontario Power
Generation with a rich historygoing back 100 years, you know
you can deal with us inconfidence that we're going to
be here tomorrow, that we're nota fly-by-night where we have
some large anchor, transit andcommercial clients.
(24:53):
For example, with the TTC weentered that service agreement
for 20 years, so we have thosekind of long-term agreements and
that stability and purchasingpower and economies of scale
with those larger clients thatwe can basically leverage that
with our smaller clients, evenfor pilot projects.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
Nice.
No, that's good to know andthat's a key thing, right, as
you partner with somebodyagainst that future-proofing
right.
So I think it's, if anything, atakeaway from today.
It's really.
The pilot project is huge rightto gather real world data and
really see how it fits in it,but also that future-proofing
kind of walking, definitelybefore you run, that's a key
piece.
But working with someone whoknows what the next steps are
(25:32):
going to be even before you'rethere and can walk you through
it and even to your point, puttogether programs to even take
that burden off of them and letthem just focus on, focus on
running their business and theirtransportation, doing what they
do, and leave theinfrastructure, electrification
to people like us and I knownobody has a crystal ball.
Speaker 2 (25:50):
They always say hindsight is 20-20 for a reason,
but I think if you plan well,you put some good thought into
it and really roadmapping andoptimizing and future pricing,
looking at your big picture, andlearn by doing and taking those
examples so that you can gainconfidence and you know even
simple things.
Another small example was youknow something like a jump seat.
(26:12):
One of the vehicles didn't havea passenger seat, so they had
to train them so they were ableto get and then, working with
the OEMs, they can give feedback.
So you can make a differencetoo, and the OEMs will listen to
you if you're working with themand then they are able to say,
oh, we'll add a jump seat forthe next model and things like
that.
So you can influence change aswell, Because the OEMs, they
(26:32):
want to provide the vehiclesthat the customers need.
So by working and partneringwith them and providing feedback
, you can make change too, canmake change to make sure that
those vehicles are meeting yourneeds right, so you can provide
that, that feedback.
So that's I think that'simportant to say.
You don't have to go throughthis alone and you, your voice
does matter, yeah that's a keypoint.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
Right and reach out to everybody.
You know, go to the expos.
You know, inform yourself, getknowledgeable.
But you know, I think thebiggest key is there's enough
support to do it.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
Yeah, and some people , I think, when they think they
can self-perform, they mighthave some.
And if you're capable, by allmeans.
But just know that even ifyou've started something, we're
here, we can get involved at anystage.
Even if you thought you can doit and then you started getting
into the weeds a little bit, yousay, wow, this is a little bit
more difficult than I wasthought of, being a little bit
more involved, a little morecomplicated, give us a call, we
(27:23):
can get involved at any stage.
If we didn't get started at thebeginning, that's okay.
We've helped a lot of customersalong the way, even with those
lead times.
They didn't plan and they saidI got a vehicle coming and I
just found out that the chargeris like 20 to 24 weeks away.
Again, we have a economy ofthis scale.
We're able to step in and wehave relationships.
We're able to lower that downto six weeks and help that
(27:44):
customer out to make sure theygot that.
So I'm not saying we can dothat every time no, and we're
not going to be able to get leadtimes down to zero.
But because we have someeconomies of scale and we can
leverage those relationships, wecan get some of those lead
times reduced and found you gotyourself further down the road
than you wanted to be.
(28:04):
But it's okay, we can step inand help you out, because we're
here to make sure thiselectrification process is
successful.
And if you're successful, byand large it benefits everybody.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
Yep, good point and well said, and that's why I
wanted to have you kind of comeon and get everyone kind of
exposed to all the differentthings you do.
So I appreciate you coming inand taking the time with us
today.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
No, I really appreciate you having me and
hopefully we're able to providesome valuable information and
things food for thought, as theysay, for the listeners here to
think about.
But I would say, eventuallyyou've got to get started
somewhere.
You're not going to change yourfleet in a day and just walk
before your run and get yourselfa partner that you can trust
(28:43):
and that you can work with.
I think there's value in thatto make sure that you're getting
confidence that you're doingthings the right way and that
way you know that you have aplan and have a flexible plan
that you can adapt with as youmove forward.
So appreciate you having mehere today to have the
conversation For sure.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
Excellent.
Well, thanks for joining usagain, and that concludes
today's episode.
We do want to thank Dave fromPower On for joining us and to
check out other episodes.
Check outtransportationexchangepodcastca.
Thanks for watching, all right.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
That should do it.
That was all right.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
Yeah, great job, yeah , you guys.
There we go.
That's better.
All right, we're good.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Yeah, one, two, three , hello, and welcome to another
episode of the TransportationExchange podcast presented by
Rush Truck Center Canada.
I'm your host, jason Cuddy, andon today's episode we welcome
Dave German, account executivefrom PowerOn.
Dave, welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Well, jason, thanks very much for inviting me.
I'm very excited to have aconversation here today about
electrification and hopefully,as we have a conversation, we
can her discussion.
We can provide some valuableinsights to your listeners as
they're considering or startingto digest the electrification
within their fleet.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Yeah, I agree, I think you know the truck on our
end has always been the easiestpart of the conversation.
I think it's the easiest partin the whole pathway to
electrification.
So having yourself on and kindof walking us through what
customers need to do, kind ofonsite early, getting to the
site, is a key thing.
I guess the one thing is fromthat point, add electrification
to an existing facility.
What are some things peopleneed to know and understand?
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Yeah, that's a great question or a great place to
start.
What I've learned is that everyfleet and facility is unique.
So I think it's very importantto have a conversation with
customers to understand wherethey're at in the process, how
many facilities that they haveand even, like I said, with
larger companies, especially ifthey're nationwide, there's a
lot of considerations to digest.
So I think the first place tostart is to have a conversation,
(01:17):
understand their operations,understand their goals,
understand how many vehiclesthey're planning to have, where
they're at in the process.
And a great place to startwould be something with a pilot
project, which I'm sure we'regoing to discuss, because pilot
is.
I'm a big proponent of that.
I think it's learn by doing andstart small and some very
valuable lessons can be done andgain some confidence.
But then, once you have thatconversation, you also would
(01:41):
want to assess the facility.
So if it's a single site hadone last week was out of the
customer's facility, went intotheir electrical room looking at
the equipment that they haveand this particular facility had
plenty of capacity, so itwasn't an issue.
They had a pilot project inmind, so there was no concerns
there to proceed.
But, as you mentioned, when itgets to commercial vehicles,
especially the bigger medium andheavy duty vehicles.
They can consume.
(02:02):
The batteries are quite largerthan you would see on, say, a
passenger car.
When you're looking at yourhome, you have a 200-amp panel.
You call an electrician, youorder your EV and your
electrician comes to your house.
You'll be up and running within24 hours.
Well, some of those assumptionsare made on the commercial side,
unfortunately, and it's best tohave.
Like you said, I think peoplewere worried, especially with
COVID and the supply chainissues we've had over the years.
(02:24):
People are maybe more focusedon the vehicles, but the
infrastructure can take just aslong, if not longer.
So I think those considerationshave to be done hand in hand.
And we had one particularcustomer who was doing a pilot
project, but it was a classeight fleet.
So even with a few vehicles,they unfortunately ran into some
nasty surprises where theydidn't have sufficient power
capacity and they were able toimplement the first couple of
(02:45):
vehicles but their plans werederailed because they needed
some site and utility upgradesthat were required.
So I think it's very importantto have those conversations.
The vehicle and theinfrastructure has to be done at
least hand-in-hand and thenplanned accordingly.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Yeah, it makes sense and I've seen that with some
other customers, othertestimonials as people have gone
through it.
And it's one thing kind ofthinking, okay, the
infrastructure is on site, likeyou're getting chargers on site,
getting all that in, but Ithink the bigger struggle for
some locations trucking has beenaround so long.
A lot of the buildings are inolder parts of towns.
Some of the maybe newerfacilities maybe the
(03:21):
municipalities have planned forit know it's the capacity at
site can really be the triggerfor most of it.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Yeah, for sure.
I think the capacity is key andsome facilities, if they're
more industrial-based, may havesome of that extra capacity.
We were at one.
It was a big warehouse facilityso they had a lot of power
coming into the building so itwasn't a concern coming into the
building, so it wasn't aconcern.
But there are when you get intothe trucking side of things.
(03:49):
Historically, transportationcompanies don't consume a lot of
power if they're not intomanufacturing or things of that
nature.
So, definitely, looking at theavailable capacity, start with
the low-hanging fruit, see whatcapacity you have available.
So that's why product projects,see what you have available
today and then have those.
That's why I think it'simportant to have conversations
with companies like Power andlike us.
We can get involved in theground floor, do things like
(04:11):
roadmap studies and feasibilityanalysis so we can have those
short-term and longer-term typeof conversations so that
companies can plan not only frommaking the electrification
process successful, but alsofrom a budgeting and planning
point of view.
And with the technology changingso much, but also from a
budgeting and planning point ofview, and with the technology
changing so much, definitelywant to have some flexibility
and there's some future proofingand also challenge some
(04:31):
assumptions and one commonassumption is that you need a
one-to-one ratio of chargers toelectrification.
But that's not necessarily thecase.
That's why I think it's havingthose operational understanding
of where the trucks are, howmany, or the vehicles are where
they are at a given time, whatthe dwell times are, how much
charging time is needed.
(04:51):
We work with one fleet, forexample, where they started with
the assumption it wasone-to-one and then, after
working with them and doing apilot project and understanding
their operations, we were ableto have a larger DC charger to
three dispensers and then thosethree dispensers to four
vehicles.
So by challenging thatone-to-one ratio, you can save a
lot of money with respect toinfrastructure and really
(05:13):
optimize and right-size thatinfrastructure, because the
amount of money and investmentthat's done here you really want
to make sure that you'reoptimizing those types of
investments and making thoseconsiderations moving forward.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
Well, it makes sense, right, Because of the time and
the cost, if anything you cantake out of it from a cost or
delay point of view, you knowthe better.
And I know, when we do thetrucks, you know we want to do
an application survey.
You know, kind of get a demo orpilot.
We'll get into that in a second.
But you know, and the wholepoint of that really is to kind
of maximize, you know, therouting of the vehicle,
potentially, um, you know, soyou are.
(05:44):
Maybe you don't need as much,you know power to do what you
need to do with these vehiclesthat you thought you would with
a normal diesel vehicle.
Um, you know.
So routing may change, um, butalso just understanding the
actual draw and how much energyactually going through in your
route, right, because thevehicles have a estimated range.
But you know that's.
You know very generic.
So once you get into the trueapplication you can really
understand how much you'reactually going to use.
And then you know very generic.
(06:04):
So once you get into the trueapplication, you can really
understand how much you'reactually going to use.
And then you know, so that's onthe truck side.
But then I think to your pointgoing hand in hand with someone
like yourself and your companyis understanding okay.
So we've got an idea of whatthe truck does.
Now how do we get the power weneed on site?
And then just kind ofpartnering up and challenging
kind of the status quo andreally putting together kind of
a good plan of how to startimplementing the next steps and
the time frame and costsinvolved.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
Right.
So as far as you know, planningfor growth, I think in Canada
the… Utilities it's verydifferent depending on what
province you're in.
For example, in places like BCand Quebec they have BC Hydro
and Hydro Quebec, which is veryvertically integrated Right, so
you have that one utility thatyou need to engage with
primarily.
Here in Ontario it's a verydifferent story.
We have 60 local distributioncompanies so it can be quite
(06:48):
daunting.
It depends where you are indifferent cities.
You have Toronto Hydro up thisway in Durham region.
You have AlexaCon in Oshawa asan example, oshawa Power.
So you can say, wow, I have tonot just talk to one utility, I
have to maybe talk to like ahandful here or even more.
So that's where something likePowerOn, being a wholly owned
subsidiary of Ontario PowerGeneration, we have those
(07:08):
relationships, thoseconversations.
We can definitely help engagewith those conversations with
the utility early.
And then I think it's importantto have a plan and design for
future proofing where possible,so you can implement some
charges, for example, thatthey're expandable, so they're
upgradable.
So maybe you start with 100kilowatts but you can have it
(07:29):
upgraded to 200 kilowatts usingthe same cabinet and by
implementing some hardware youcan have that future expansion
done if you invest that sort ofmoney a little bit more wisely
in the early days and with thatfuture-proofing in mind.
So sometimes you may say, okay,we see your plan, you do have
short-term, mid-term andlong-year plans, but it also has
(07:49):
to be adoptable.
Because it is changing so fast.
Things like inductive chargingis being out there.
How cost-effective is thatgoing to be?
Is that going to be more viablefor en route charges, for
example?
So we're not quite there yet.
But even in the near-term plans,work with the vehicles where
they are today and with thetechnology where it is today.
But also, hey, maybe if we spendan extra 10% to 15% today, we
(08:11):
can upgrade that transformer sothat when you do deploy those
extra vehicles in a few yearsyou don't have to start from
scratch or make some more costlyinvestments.
So sort of, invest your moneywisely and it's that
optimization key I think isundervalued and making sure that
you're right-sizing thatinfrastructure and investing
your money smartly and with thatfuture proof considerations,
(08:31):
without having to do somethingfast and cheap.
And then companies will come tous oh geez, I rushed to do
something and I spent all thismoney and now it's not meeting
my operations.
They've got to literally tearit all out and start from
scratch.
So that's why you want to haveit done right the first time and
I think that's why having thoselong-term plans and goals and
looking at the big picture, butalso making your plan flexible
(08:52):
so you can either accelerate ifthings are going well or you can
defer things.
Maybe the economy is changing,budgets change, business is
going good, business has falledoff a little bit, so you have to
have that adaptability andflexibility built into your
plans as you move forward.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
That's a good point because I mean, the biggest
component on this is thetechnology is changing so quick,
right on your side, the charterside, on the truck side, so
knowing that you can kind ofplan ahead with you know within
reason but that's a good pointis to think ahead right, not
just the vehicle today but thevehicles may be coming in the
future, right, and you know, areyou looking to scale it?
what is your operation doing,and you know.
(09:27):
But but partnering with with,with the right people to have
those conversations, I think, isa key piece, so that you said
you don't just go all in on onething and then you're left in
the dark four years later when atechnology changes or something
else changes, and you didn'tthink of it too far ahead, right
?
So with what's involved and thetime frame involved, you kind
of want to future-proof yourself.
It's a good wording for it.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
No for sure, it's never going to be perfect, but
you want to have thatskillability in mind.
I agree with you wholeheartedlyon that.
That's having that where I amtoday, starting small with the
pilot, with the low-lying fruit.
See what available capacity youhave and defer those larger
investments so that you can seewhat's available tomorrow and
see how not only the vehicleschange but the infrastructure is
(10:10):
changing.
Like I said, with inductivecharging and smart charging and
energy management and looking ata holistic view so that you can
make sure that your total costof ownership is optimized,
because people moving aroundhave some great conversations
with people who are electrifying, having some very good
experiences where they're saying, yeah, my TCO is down, I know
this is the right way to go, andthen they're finding ways to
(10:31):
even optimize it a little bitfurther.
Where some other maybe,depending on what type of
business they're in, maybe thevehicles aren't quite the right
fit and electrification isn'tgoing to be the right solution
for everybody.
It's not going to be.
I don't believe any fleet'sgoing to be 100% electrified,
but it's going to be a portionof your business.
How big of a portion depends onyour operations.
Maybe it makes sense that youcan get like 90% of the way
(10:53):
they're electric vehicles.
Maybe you're going to be 20%electric, and then hydrogen is a
big topic of conversation andthings of that and maybe keep
those ICE vehicles as long asyou can for things like long
haul and I think that's morechallenging.
So let's kick that rock downthe road but let's not wait,
because I think if customerswait too long and kick that road
down too far down the road,then they could be left when
(11:16):
everybody goes to pick up thatrock at the same time and there
could be challenges there andthen they left.
Oh my, I should have maybe donethat.
That's why that pilot projectwe talked about, I think is is
so key to walk before you runand you can have some lessons
learned and gain some confidenceand that you're going down the
right path and you're making theright choices along the way
good point maybe.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
Yeah, let me dive into a little the pilot project,
because I think, like I know,we talk on our end about, you
know, the application survey.
That's kind of pre-vehicleright.
That's kind of looking at whatyou're trying to do with the
vehicle and kind of make some,you know some assessments and
some best guesses as far as theapplication.
But I think the pilot is kindof where you know it's real
world.
You start to get some real data.
Maybe walk us through kind ofwhat you've seen from the pilot
(11:52):
projects as far as real-worldtestimonials, once you're trying
this product for the first time.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Yeah, I think that's.
I guess we're going to repeatourselves with pilot projects.
It sounds like a broken record,but I really want to encourage
customers to walk before theyrun.
Learn by doing because, likeyou mentioned, you can have all
the data fuel car data, forexample and you think, oh, this
is when I replaced that dieselengine and I turned electric.
(12:19):
Well, electric, especially ininner city, with the
regenerative braking, it canoutperform those expectations
and also the way the driversbehave.
And we had an example where acustomer did a pilot project, a
couple fold to gain confidence.
But they had vehicle A, vehicleB, so they bought two different
types of vehicles and the bigthing was range anxiety.
So I'm sure in the audience andlistening to say range anxiety
(12:41):
is probably one of the biggestconcerns when people are looking
to electrify.
But what they found?
They did a full 12-month studyso they could have the win or
two, because not only in hightemperatures through the summer,
but look at that again bigpicture point of view.
And what they found when theywere making that decision, what
they decided to do was theybought the vehicles with the
highest battery available inthat given vehicle.
(13:02):
So a lot of vehicles will havea smaller, medium or large size
option.
So they went for the biggestone because they were worried
about the range anxiety.
But to their, you know, notsurprise.
But what they were happy to seeis based on how this was a last
mile delivery company and basedon the range that the majority
not all of them, but themajority of the vehicles were
(13:22):
coming back to the depot withover 50% state of charge in most
cases.
So they said, wow, this isfantastic.
These vehicles are performingas advertised, the range is not
an issue.
We're able to charge them andhave a lot of capacity.
But by doing that, not only A,they decided they liked vehicle
A over B.
So they decided the model theypreferred with the different
manufacturers.
(13:42):
So that was one.
Two, they said, now that weknow that range is not the issue
, they were able to save somemoney because in the next
vehicle spec they were going todo they're going to choose the
lower-sized battery because theyhad so much extra power on most
of these vehicles.
So, a, they were to save moneyon the vehicle purchase.
That puts less strain on theinfrastructure and, more
importantly, batteries add a lotof weight to the vehicle so
(14:03):
they're able to add more loadcapacity so they're able to
deliver more packages.
So it was a win-win across theboard.
So that's why I think, don'thave assumptions.
You hear some stories and ifyou do it right and learning by
doing, you can really have somereal-world experience and gain
(14:23):
confidence.
Not only that you're going downthe right path, but you're
choosing the right vehicle, andthen you can scale that plan a
little bit more as well as yougo Makes sense and it's all
real-world data, which is nice,right, and you talked about
understanding kind of your needsand maybe not as much draw.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
You talked about understanding your needs and
maybe not as much draw.
I think one thing I knew aboutobviously coming in on the truck
side is obviously there'sgrants, depending on where you
go and provincially they'll moveand depending on the time of
year you're having aconversation, someone has money,
someone doesn't, and obviouslythere's some grants for the
infrastructure side.
The part I didn't actuallyrealize is that I guess there's
grants also for using thecharging infrastructure.
From that point of view, maybeit's kind of highlighted what
(14:56):
that is From our end.
We're not overly familiar withthat.
That's kind of after thetruck's already on place kind of
thing.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
Yeah, there's a variety of different things
available.
Obviously, there's some federalgrants, and BC and Quebec could
offer some extra money forpeople to do things.
But one of the things that doesget overlooked that's
relatively new is somethingcalled CFR credits, which is
clean fuel regulation credits,and that's exactly what it is.
That's where you can.
It's a new revenue stream forpeople who electrify, and it's
not a tax.
(15:22):
It's basically an incentive orit's a federal goal to lower
carbon intensity.
So the idea there is for fossilfuel producers companies like
Suncor, who have greenhouse gasemissions, need to offset those
emissions by buying clean fuelcredits and by electrifying
you're replacing an internalcombustion engine, an ICE
vehicle, with electrificationand you have a charging
(15:43):
infrastructure.
You qualify for those credits.
And the one thing that I thinkis important is timing is
important because we're talkingto some customers.
They've had, you know, chargersand electric vehicles for a
year, but they haven't doneanything with CFR credits.
So unfortunately, cfr creditsaren't retroactive.
It's basically you can startcounting those credits from the
day you register for the program.
So, working with somebody likePower On who can aggregate those
(16:04):
credits because the largefossil fuel producers aren't
going to buy you know credithere and a credit there.
They want to buy them in bulk.
So we were able with some ofour large anchor clients.
So we're able with some of ourlarge anchor clients we deal
with large transit authoritieslike TTC and Oakville and some
other places so we're able toaggregate those credits and help
customers basically providethose lower commission rates, if
(16:26):
you will, to monetize it tosmaller customers so they can
maximize the money in theirpocket when they do try to
monetize these CFR creditsBecause it is rather
administrative intensive, it's alittle cumbersome and it can be
overwhelming.
So, partnering with somebodylike PowerOn, we can maximize
the money in your pocket and wecan aggregate those credits to
(16:46):
make sure we maximize that.
And for example, on largevehicles just to quantify it for
the audience talking forcommercial customers, which I
imagine would be a good part ofthe listeners a large transit
bus or Class A tractor can thevalue today.
Obviously it is a market-basedsystem so it can't change, but
it can be between $15,000 toover $20,000 per vehicle per
(17:08):
year.
Oh wow.
So it's a significant amount ofmoney that can go against the
operating costs and lower thattotal cost of ownership.
So it is a new revenue streamand I would encourage customers
to.
Definitely, if you havecharging infrastructure that
you're using to give us a calland we can talk to you and we
can help you register so you canstart getting those credits and
(17:29):
monetizing that today, versusjust leaving that money on the
table.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
That's a good point and I would never have thought
that I've rented some TCOs on it.
And usually it's traditionallymore with some of the
infrastructure costs or thetruck costs.
You're taking fuel out, you'retaking some maintenance spend
out but never accounting for,let's say, that chunk of it
which all of a sudden can veryeasily tip a TCO to
electrification in favor, if allthe conditions are right, and
it kind of then goes back toyour application and those pilot
(17:54):
projects, right like doing yourhomework, to make sure you're
getting what you're getting.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
you can then start kind of fine-tuning your tco to
really do your math and get yournumbers kind of tied together
oh for sure, and that's why Ithink when you're, when you're
looking at, you knowelectrification and the vehicle
costs and obviously theincentives that are available
and one of the conversationswhen we had we have some
seminars and webinars as well,and people are concerned.
Oh, you know, I'm looking formore funding, more credits, and
(18:21):
when it comes to CFR, forexample, that's something where
the early adopters, theircredits, are that valuable today
, but as the program becomesmore successful and there's more
credits on the market right now, a credit's worth between $150
to $200 per credit, but thatcould change.
So you're really rewarding theearly adopters.
People are doing it early.
You can maximize that.
Even with some of theincentives that are out there,
(18:41):
you can't assume that they'regoing to be there today.
There could be some new onestomorrow, we don't know and the
vehicle costs could come down.
So I think that pilot project,looking at it, getting yourself
comfortable, and don't try tosolve all your problems in one
day there are going to beelectric vehicles available that
could be suitable for yourfleet, so let's focus on those,
(19:07):
and I agree that there are someapplications that are a little
bit more daunting and maybe notthe best fit for electrification
today.
So let's not focus on those.
Let's focus on the ones that wecan do.
We can do them successfully.
There are a lot of more optionscoming every day.
With respect to manufacturerslike International Navistar,
they're coming out with newoptions and range and battery
technology is changing.
(19:27):
But at the end of the day, youneed to start somewhere and then
, if you can gain someconfidence and pick the right
vehicle, go for test drives.
There's plug-and-drive eventsand things of that nature.
So get yourself behind thewheel of one to start.
It's a good place to start.
See how they feel, how muchquieter they are.
People are commenting that someof these drivers love them.
They're so much quieter, a lot,and the amount of stress that
that adds.
(19:48):
And, given there's studies outthere, they're saying that how
much more quieter just the waythey run and just the way they
run.
And it's also, I think,training your staff, because you
need buy-in from them.
You have to train them properlythe way the vehicles are
operated they have thatregenerative braking, so the way
that it's driven and what thevehicle can do in maximizing the
technology at hand, and smallthings like remembering to plug
(20:09):
it in at the end of the day.
So you don't want to have anasty surprise.
It's something that you just ohgonna.
Whose job is that to do?
I'm just.
You know who's responsible.
So just make sure you have thatclearly defined, simple,
something like that.
And even things like cablemanagement.
Like cable management, oh it's,it's just a dispenser.
I got this cord, I got a plugin, but we were talking to one
customer and they had a back-endpolicy and, lo and behold,
(20:29):
they're.
This particular vehicle theywere looking at had the charging
port on the front.
Yeah, so now you geez, now howlong does my cable need to be
and where do I need to positionthat dispenser?
So these are small things that,if you don't think them through
, that that at the end of theday you can have some, you know,
nasty surprises, or and thenthe cord doesn't go, and then do
you have to lax your backendpolicy or do you have to, you
(20:50):
know, make it change where youlocated that dispenser and how
long those cables.
Like I said, there's a lot tothink about.
Those are just some simpleexamples.
Obviously, we can get into theweeds and get a lot more
complicated, and I wouldencourage the listeners to give
companies like Power on a Callbecause this is what we do.
We're electrification expertsand we've learned by doing and
(21:13):
we've done some pilot projectsand large-scale projects and
everything in between.
So we're looking to be yourelectrification partner from the
very beginning, where we canhelp you with the planning.
We do things like feasibilitystudies and roadmaps to looking
at your infrastructure,optimizing and right-sizing that
, to having the conversationswith utilities and then just
(21:35):
making sure that you have a planand then make it flexible, make
it adaptable, but you have tostart somewhere and I think the
make it adaptable, but you haveto start somewhere, and I think
the pilot project is a greatplace to get the ball rolling.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
Yeah, I agree, and that's why I would have Yon
right, just kind of walk throughand introduce people to.
You know how do you get furtherin and just talk about the
truck, because the truck's beenan easy conversation, it's been
good no-transcript few years out, but at least they understand
(22:11):
the process and the time andsort of the investment and
little things like you knowwhere do you put the charger in
the facility, based on how youpark your vehicle, like those
are things that probably don'tcome up until it's in the ground
, going and going.
Oh, we've made a mistake, right.
But by working with someonelike yourself who's gone through
it, you can be ahead of it andsay, hey, what are you
considering this?
Have you considered this?
Because it's new for mostpeople walking into it, right.
So it's great, greatinformation.
(22:35):
And then you know, while wehave you here, you know
short-term outlooks on, you knowthe technology, or just kind of
, what do you see on the horizon?
Because it's a very fastchanging.
You know technology.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
Oh for sure, Things are changing very fast as well.
I think that's why, when you'relooking at things that
future-proofing I talked aboutas much as you can, making your
plan adaptable, flexible, makingthose maybe investments, things
like transformers, for example,those, those that to supply the
power you're going to need that.
So maybe, oh, I can, dependingon what my plan is here in the
(23:06):
next two to three, four years, Iwant to get that little bit
bigger transformer so that Idon't have to, you know, put in
a second one.
And really maximizing thatlittle bit extra investment
today will save you tomorrow.
And in speaking with that, whatmaybe people don't realize, and
having conversations with acouple of fleet customers,
because things are changing somuch, one of the things that
power on does is we can offercharging as a service.
Okay, so what is what does thatmean?
(23:26):
What does charging as a servicemean?
So it's changing.
Rather than making it a capitalintensive, we can, if we look
at a plan with a, we can enter along-term agreement with a
customer.
They have a deployment plan, asustainable strategy, and then
what we do is we translate thatit.
It's almost like a lease tone,like a monthly cost that you can
have.
So now you can change thatcapital expenditure more to a
monthly operating fee and thenthat transitions the
(23:50):
responsibility to us on makingsure that those chargers are
meeting your needs uptimeguarantees, things of that
nature so then that way you havea fixed monthly cost.
That I know customers arealways worried about their cost
per mile, so this way they canhave a fixed monthly fee and
they can go with confidence.
Let us worry about theinfrastructure.
You let us know your deploymentplan, then PowerOn will make
(24:11):
sure we design, build andoptimize that infrastructure to
keep pace with your deploymentplan.
And that transfers all the riskto a company like us.
So those are options.
We could do a traditional buildand sale Right, or we could do
something in between, or thatcharging as a service, so that
way it's not as daunting.
And then we have to adapt.
And you know the other thing inworking with something like
(24:32):
Power because you say, thingsare changing.
We're at the EV Expo and you'reseeing so many new players
enter the market and it becomesoverwhelming.
Players enter the market and itbecomes overwhelming.
And companies like Power Run,backed by Ontario Power
Generation with a rich historygoing back 100 years, you know
you can deal with us inconfidence that we're going to
be here tomorrow, that we're nota fly-by-night where we have
some large anchor, transit andcommercial clients.
(24:53):
For example, with the TTC weentered that service agreement
for 20 years, so we have thosekind of long-term agreements and
that stability and purchasingpower and economies of scale
with those larger clients thatwe can basically leverage that
with our smaller clients, evenfor pilot projects.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
Nice.
No, that's good to know andthat's a key thing, right, as
you partner with somebodyagainst that future-proofing
right.
So I think it's, if anything, atakeaway from today.
It's really.
The pilot project is huge rightto gather real world data and
really see how it fits in it,but also that future-proofing
kind of walking, definitelybefore you run, that's a key
piece.
But working with someone whoknows what the next steps are
(25:32):
going to be even before you'rethere and can walk you through
it and even to your point, puttogether programs to even take
that burden off of them and letthem just focus on, focus on
running their business and theirtransportation, doing what they
do, and leave theinfrastructure, electrification
to people like us and I knownobody has a crystal ball.
Speaker 2 (25:50):
They always say hindsight is 20-20 for a reason,
but I think if you plan well,you put some good thought into
it and really roadmapping andoptimizing and future pricing,
looking at your big picture, andlearn by doing and taking those
examples so that you can gainconfidence and you know even
simple things.
Another small example was youknow something like a jump seat.
(26:12):
One of the vehicles didn't havea passenger seat, so they had
to train them so they were ableto get and then, working with
the OEMs, they can give feedback.
So you can make a differencetoo, and the OEMs will listen to
you if you're working with themand then they are able to say,
oh, we'll add a jump seat forthe next model and things like
that.
So you can influence change aswell, Because the OEMs, they
(26:32):
want to provide the vehiclesthat the customers need.
So by working and partneringwith them and providing feedback
, you can make change too, canmake change to make sure that
those vehicles are meeting yourneeds right, so you can provide
that, that feedback.
So that's I think that'simportant to say.
You don't have to go throughthis alone and you, your voice
does matter, yeah that's a keypoint.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
Right and reach out to everybody.
You know, go to the expos.
You know, inform yourself, getknowledgeable.
But you know, I think thebiggest key is there's enough
support to do it.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
Yeah, and some people , I think, when they think they
can self-perform, they mighthave some.
And if you're capable, by allmeans.
But just know that even ifyou've started something, we're
here, we can get involved at anystage.
Even if you thought you can doit and then you started getting
into the weeds a little bit, yousay, wow, this is a little bit
more difficult than I wasthought of, being a little bit
more involved, a little morecomplicated, give us a call, we
(27:23):
can get involved at any stage.
If we didn't get started at thebeginning, that's okay.
We've helped a lot of customersalong the way, even with those
lead times.
They didn't plan and they saidI got a vehicle coming and I
just found out that the chargeris like 20 to 24 weeks away.
Again, we have a economy ofthis scale.
We're able to step in and wehave relationships.
We're able to lower that downto six weeks and help that
(27:44):
customer out to make sure theygot that.
So I'm not saying we can dothat every time no, and we're
not going to be able to get leadtimes down to zero.
But because we have someeconomies of scale and we can
leverage those relationships, wecan get some of those lead
times reduced and found you gotyourself further down the road
than you wanted to be.
(28:04):
But it's okay, we can step inand help you out, because we're
here to make sure thiselectrification process is
successful.
And if you're successful, byand large it benefits everybody.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
Yep, good point and well said, and that's why I
wanted to have you kind of comeon and get everyone kind of
exposed to all the differentthings you do.
So I appreciate you coming inand taking the time with us
today.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
No, I really appreciate you having me and
hopefully we're able to providesome valuable information and
things food for thought, as theysay, for the listeners here to
think about.
But I would say, eventuallyyou've got to get started
somewhere.
You're not going to change yourfleet in a day and just walk
before your run and get yourselfa partner that you can trust
(28:43):
and that you can work with.
I think there's value in thatto make sure that you're getting
confidence that you're doingthings the right way and that
way you know that you have aplan and have a flexible plan
that you can adapt with as youmove forward.
So appreciate you having mehere today to have the
conversation For sure.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
Excellent.
Well, thanks for joining usagain, and that concludes
today's episode.
We do want to thank Dave fromPower On for joining us and to
check out other episodes.
Check outtransportationexchangepodcastca.
Thanks for watching, all right.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
That should do it.
That was all right.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
Yeah, great job, yeah , you guys.
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